Who is HE?

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:55 am

brett wrote:I Disagree with you Mr Badly - I consider Daniels 70th Week to be REAL and in the FUTURE - this is not foolishness - it is not sensational and it is not nonsense. This is what I believe scripture supports. I just want you to know that I have a strong belief and expectation of a future 70th Week of Daniel coming soon. I don't know if anything I say would be able to help you - I would like to help. I just want you to know that I do strongly believe in Daniels 70th week coming in the future...........its a fundamental and core belief imho.


brett wrote:The purpose of the unknown GAP is to bring in the fullness of the Gentiles........to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to the Gentiles.


Hi Brett,

It's okay to disagree - that's the purpose of healthy debates. :mrgreen:

I too once believed as you do, but I didn't just wake up one morning and decide that this "GAP" theory is wrong. It took years of study, and diligent seeking to understand the Truth. Just because we "feel" a certain way, doesn't make it right.

However, if you had read the link I provided you will see that your comment about the "fullness of the Gentiles" coming in to the Kingdom was answered too. There is a HUGE misunderstanding about the 70th week. Scripture also mentions that those who He foreknew before the foundation of the World was created were predestined to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven (Romans 8:9) so there is neither Jew, Greek, Slave, or Free when it comes down to differences in people. The Nation of Israel - which God does have a special plan for differs from the Jews, as we are all Jews who are in the Body of Christ.

Galatians 3:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise


AND:

Romans 2:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


I have provided the two aforementioned passages of Scripture to show that this term "Fullness of the Gentiles" coming in, which is in Romans 11:25-26 has been misinterpreted as well. I believe it has been use to prove dispensationalist ideas. So I ask for those who believe that a "full number of Gentiles" have to come in to the Body of Christ - then how is it that Paul very clearly explains that THERE IS NO JEW or GREEK? And if God predestined those whom He Foreknew to inherit Eternal Life - then why has this term "fullness of the gentiles" been so greatly misinterpreted?
(But this would be for another lesson)

In Closing...... Again, there is A LOT of misconception concerning the 70th week. Why does the 1290 days, and 1335 days mentioned in Daniel 12 have to relate to the 3.5 time period of years mentioned in Revelation?
Please someone tell me if they can.......

Also, Historically it has been proven that these days were fulfilled EXACTLY as prophesized. Why is this unknown, very erroneous, nonsensical "GAP" just thrown into Prophecy? Well, it makes no sense, never has, and it never will. Men have come up with this "GAP" in time, which has no intelligible understanding to it, as well as a very "secret" End. This same "GAP" can very logically go on for an indefinite period of Time. Well, I don't think that Scripture supports it.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:21 pm

Exit40 wrote: One can debate and present a position, but to call something nonsensical without having explored all the Scriptures and options they present is ... Well, there is almost always more to the Word of God than we think we know. I'm still trying to figure things out myself, and count myself as one who needs to continue to explore.

:a3:
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:26 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Also, Historically it has been proven that these days were fulfilled EXACTLY as prophesized. Why is this unknown, very erroneous, nonsensical "GAP" just thrown into Prophecy? Well, it makes no sense, never has, and it never will. Men have come up with this "GAP" in time, which has no intelligible understanding to it, as well as a very "secret" End. This same "GAP" can very logically go on for an indefinite period of Time. Well, I don't think that Scripture supports it.

I have asked some very specific questions that you have not addressed Mr. B (Regarding the Grafting In Time/ " gap").

I will go back through my posts and repost those questions to you ok...at present I am short on time to do it.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:40 pm


Exit40 wrote:
One can debate and present a position, but to call something nonsensical without having explored all the Scriptures and options they present is ... Well, there is almost always more to the Word of God than we think we know. I'm still trying to figure things out myself, and count myself as one who needs to continue to explore.


I certainly agree with this statement - however, not exploring Scripture does not apply to me.

shorttribber wrote:I have asked some very specific questions that you have not addressed Mr. B (Regarding the Grafting In Time/ " gap").


I've answered this Shorty.

Here:

Mr Baldy wrote:Galatians 3:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise


AND:

Mr Baldy wrote:Romans 2:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


What amazes me Shorty, is that you once believed too that the 70th has already been fulfilled, if I am not mistaken. What has now changed your mind :dunno: :humm:
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:03 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:I have asked some very specific questions that you have not addressed Mr. B (Regarding the Grafting In Time/ " gap").
Mr B said:
I've answered this Shorty. Here:Mr Baldy wrote:Galatians 3:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promiseAND:Mr Baldy wrote:Romans 2:28-29 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)28) For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29) But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


Not referring to those brief answers Mr. B.....I will repost those unanswered questions ok?

Mr Baldy wrote:What amazes me Shorty, is that you once believed too that the 70th has already been fulfilled, if I am not mistaken. What has now changed your mind

Not sure where you got that idea from Mr. B.....I've never believed that. :humm:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:50 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:What amazes me Shorty, is that you once believed too that the 70th has already been fulfilled, if I am not mistaken. What has now changed your mind


Just to clarify, you know that I have for many years believed that Half of the 70th week is past/fulfilled by Christ of course. I have continually stated that the second half of the 70th week remains unfulfilled.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:10 pm

These are the main questions Mr. B.

shorttribber wrote:
shorttribber wrote:I am not saying that it is not 70 weeks. 70 weeks of time do not need to be consecutive, that's what I'm saying, and that Is what God has Already Shown us by Christ's First Appearing. He gave No indication in scripture that the "Coming of the Lord, IN That Day" would not be As ONE DAY. Yet it Was Not and IS NOT One Day.

Why do you still strain at that idea when we Have That Clear Division right in front of our faces?

Are you aware of the types and shadows that I'm speaking of regarding those in the Abrahamic Covenant?

ALL of the Sacrifices Point to Christ and the Everlasting Covenant, including the First CONFIRMATION OF IT in Genesis chapter 15.
Do you even consider it as such, do you know to what I'm referring ?


Mr. B.,
Before I comment more with the things I've been gathering to post, please elaborate in a paragraph or two on the following words you've said.....
Mr Baldy wrote:In your aforementioned comments you mention the "Types and Shadows" - which I completely understand. But let me say that the "Types and Shadows" as it may apply to the Fulfillment of the 70th Week has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the 70th week has been fulfilled.


Note above, that I said "ALL the Sacrifices Point To Christ and the Everlasting Covenant"....Please Keep that in Mind as you form your answer as to whether the "Types and Shadows" have nothing to do regarding ANY Application to the Completion of the 70th week.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:18 am

Mr Baldy wrote:

Exit40 wrote:
One can debate and present a position, but to call something nonsensical without having explored all the Scriptures and options they present is ... Well, there is almost always more to the Word of God than we think we know. I'm still trying to figure things out myself, and count myself as one who needs to continue to explore.


I certainly agree with this statement - however, not exploring Scripture does not apply to me.


Well then, have you explored the following Scriptures for understanding before you call the Word of God nonsensical ? And yes that statement is intended to challenge your insult, and ask if you have any understanding of the time period the Jews are to be punished for their iniquity ? And when does this time period begin and why, and when does it end and what that means to our present time with Israel being a nation once more ?

Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass: ...

Lev 26:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. ...

Lev 26:23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. ...

Lev 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Lev 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. ...

Lev 26:33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. ...


Do you now who carries the sword drawn against Israel today, and the time period it represents ? And when does this time period expire and what happens then ?

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.


Do you know the contents of these three covenants ? Or the meaning of the time period of this following passage ?

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; ...

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. ...

Num 14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation....

Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, ...


If you can answer any of these questions with clarity and understanding and how they apply to the past two thousand years, and unto today and our near future, then maybe you would be qualified to call any other view of Scripture nonsensical. If you can't answer and refuse further exploration then please refrain from your lofty position of understanding and judgement of another view of the potentials the Word of God presents. Doing so slights the Word, insults others, and is contrary to your statement of being an explorer in the Word. Thank you for your understanding.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:31 am

Hi David,

Much of what you posted from Leviticus is documented as happening in historical records.
I have not researched them in detail but the evidence is pretty broad.
First, We have the exile to Babylon, then after still not repenting we have 70 years of Roman Jewish Wars driving them out of Israel and making the land desolate. Only in recent history has God blessed their return.

I don't have any problem with this. Why do you think this argues the 70 weeks are not over?

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 7:23 am

I am trying to understand this 70th week....

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


We know that 70 weeks(490 years) has been fulfilled and "HE" is referred to Jesus Christ.
Could the one week be literally one week out of the 70th week?
I mean, after the Triumph Entry of Jesus, he died on the cross in the middle of that week literally....
I am trying to understand this.... also if "HE" is referred to Jesus, why would you think it also applies to the End times?
In Christ Always,
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:10 am

Hi Woody,

The 70 weeks were contiguous. The 70th week was the one in which Christ was crucified. Regardless of when during that 70th week one thinks Christ was crucified the week has run its course and is over.

The one week in Daniel 9:27 is not part of the 70 weeks prophecy but is its own independent prophecy about the consequences of crucifying Christ during the 70 weeks prophecy. It is the “one week” period in the middle of which the sacrifices were stopped. Historically, this corresponds to the First Jewish Roman war which lasted 7 years, “one week”.

Mr. Baldy has stated the “He” in verse 27 is Christ. I have previously state it is Prince Titus. Because Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Mr. Baldy is also correct that the "He" is Christ; the 70AD event could not have happened without God’s approval. Christ tells us, in “The Parable of the Tenants”, He knows what is coming and God, the owner of the vineyard, is the one who makes the 70AD event happen. The Jews know this for a fact because the temple was destroyed on the 9th of Av, the same day God, through, Nebuchadnezzar, destroyed the original temple. A few posts back, David pointed out God says He shall do these things in the prophecies found in Leviticus. So Mr. Baldy is correct, God, Christ, the Lord of Lords is also the “He” of verse 27. God's involvement was so evident that Titus himself refused credit for the victory and said: he had merely lent his arms to God, who had so manifested his wrath (see philostratus-life-of-apollonius-6.29)

So, Christ put an end for the need of sacrifices during the 70th week, through his crucifixion and resurrection. The 70th week ran its course. As Christ said, within that generation, less than 40 years after the crucifixion, the temple was destroyed in the 70AD event. The 70AD event occurred in the middle of the one week prophesied in Daniel verse 27. Historically, we label that one week event the “First Jewish-Roman War” (66AD-73AD).

Interestingly, because the First Jewish-Roman War lasted 7 years, Christ describing what was coming to his disciples and telling them to flee to the mountains constitutes an agreement between Christ and his disciples for the duration of the 7 years of the First Jewish Roman War. Do what I say and flee and you shall have life. Interestingly, it was the First Jewish Roman War where believers refused to side with the Jews and left Jerusalem instead of fighting. Those who took Christ at His word, survived the 7 years, the “one week” of Daniel 9:27, including the 3 1/2 years following the 70AD event, and in so doing were blessed, granted their lives.

Keith
Edited to add some details 3.25.17 12:07PMEastern
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:25 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:12 am

Hi Keith,
Thanks for taking your time explaining to me.
Now in verse 26,

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

so after 69 weeks, "Messiah be cutoff".... what was cutoff? The need for OT sacrifice?
is the rest of the verse 26 referring to 70AD ?
In Christ Always,
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:03 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Hi Keith,
Thanks for taking your time explaining to me.
Now in verse 26,

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

so after 69 weeks, "Messiah be cutoff".... what was cutoff? The need for OT sacrifice?
is the rest of the verse 26 referring to 70AD ?


Yes, Christ was crucified as the final sacrifice during the 70th week (right after the 69 weeks).
So Christ was cut-off and the need for future sacrifices was also cut-off.

The rest of the verse describes the 70AD event, (where the sacrifices were actually stopped)
as well as multiple desolations; these desolations are not limited to 70AD or the First Jewish Roman War.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 11:54 am

Thanks Keith!

Now, how are the 1260 days being fulfilled? along with 75 days or 1335 days?

If you don't mind....thanks
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:06 pm

Woody,

Daniel 12:11-12
From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

The temple was desolated in the middle of the "one week", 3 1/2 years into the First Jewish Roman War. Even though the temple was desolated, the war continued for another 3 1/2 years. After most of the Romans left, because of all the desolation throughout the area, not just at the temple, there would have been problems attaining the resources needed to survive. As with most wars, people continue to die as a consequence of the war even after the war is over. Those who were not killed in the war and had the resources to survive, were blessed. Many of the "Blessed" would be Christian Jews who listened to Jesus and fled to the hills.


Keith
Edited for Clarity 3.26.17
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:51 pm

Once again Keith,
Thanks, it helps me study better...

I'm going to research why Mr. Baldy and Shorttribber have a different interpretation than you do....

Much Blessing,
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:13 pm

Woody,

You might also want to study the Bar-Kokhba revolt (132-136AD).
It was this Roman Jewish War that shattered the power of the holy people as described in Daniel 12:7. At the end of this war, Roman Emperor Hadrian setup a statue to Jupiter (and one to himself) on the Temple Mount. It is recorded that blood was flowing as high as a horses bridle during the battle of Betar. Also, Simon-Bar-Kokhba accepted the label of Messiah.

Interestingly, the time elapsed from the start of the First Jewish Roman War to the end of the Bar-Kokhba revolt was 70 years.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:37 pm

keithareilly wrote: It is also recorded that blood was flowing as high as a horses bridle during the battle of Betar. Also, Simon-Bar-Kokhba accepted the label of Messiah.

If that is so, then I suppose the Wrath of God has Ended.....According to Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles
,
by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Is there any doubt that the gathering to Christ in the Clouds is intended, and then the Wrath of God that follows?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:07 pm

Shorttrib,

I am not making any assertions. Just reporting what I have discovered.
It is interesting though. Betar was about 5 miles from Jerusalem.
Another interesting point is: we don't use horses much at all in modern warfare.

From Jewish Talmud Ta'anit
The [Romans] went on killing [Jews] until a horse was sunk in blood up to its nose. And the blood was turning over forty-se’ah boulders, until the blood flowed forty Roman miles into the sea….


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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:56 pm

keithareilly wrote:Another interesting point is: we don't use horses much at all in modern warfare.

Not yet! By the time the Bowls begin to be poured out, then the world will I think...won't be many roads and vehicles to run on what could be left of Drivable Routes for "Modern Warfare" by then!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:41 am

shorttribber wrote:Note above, that I said "ALL the Sacrifices Point To Christ and the Everlasting Covenant"....Please Keep that in Mind as you form your answer as to whether the "Types and Shadows" have nothing to do regarding ANY Application to the Completion of the 70th week.


Mr Baldy wrote: In your aforementioned comments you mention the "Types and Shadows" - which I completely understand. But let me say that the "Types and Shadows" as it may apply to the Fulfillment of the 70th Week has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the 70th week has been fulfilled.


You are right Shorty, my aforementioned comment does need clarification. My comment was a response to your belief that the "Types and Shadows" as it relates to the 70th week is still something future - which I disagree with. My comment was intended to say that the "Types and Shadows" HAVE been already been completed as it relates to the 70th week, and the fulfillment thereof has absolutely nothing to do with any application to future requirements.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 6:45 am

keithareilly wrote:Hi David,

Much of what you posted from Leviticus is documented as happening in historical records.
I have not researched them in detail but the evidence is pretty broad.
First, We have the exile to Babylon, then after still not repenting we have 70 years of Roman Jewish Wars driving them out of Israel and making the land desolate. Only in recent history has God blessed their return.

I don't have any problem with this. Why do you think this argues the 70 weeks are not over?

Keith


Hi Keith. Sorry for not getting back sooner. Time constraints and further exploration kept my attention. I would love to be able to say specifically how long the time period is from the time of Christ's crucifixion to the end of the punishment of the Jews, national Israel and blood kin. However, that issue will have to remain a mystery as the Scripture has not been revealed to me, nor anyone else, as to the length of the desolations on the Temple Mount, which continues today and is part of the punishment of the Jews. The passage stating 'no man knows the day nor hour' applies here so we likely will not know until it happens. Yes, some of the Deuteronomy passages are historical regarding then Babylon captivity. Those are a warning of what will happen for the failings of Israel if they still reuse to obey post return to Jerusalem and building another Temple. The passages referring to multiple punishments and plagues time seven, and times seven again, are what refers to the time period in the midst of the 70th week, in that my belief is we are presently still in the midst of that time period. This time period, the seventieth week, is marked as split right from the moment of Christ's death on the Cross. From that precise moment the first desolation was revealed, as the immense curtain hanging in front of the Holiest Place where the Ark of the Covenant was supposed to be, and also the presence of God. The revelation was, neither were there, exposing the desolation of their House, and it will remain desolate until the Lord Himself fills His entire 'House' again. ST has expounded wonderfully on that. It is also my belief that further desolations are happening right now, and the AoD is the big one that starts the counting of the second half of the seventieth week. I believe that for the sake of the many of the Covenant, the Gentiles whose fullness must come in, meaning every single Gentile Christian convert of the past and near future, as well as the time period for punishment of Israel in multiples of seven times, are coincidental time periods. And yes, there are other passages that speak of the fullness of the gentiles trampling the Temple Mount, this time period being coincidental also.

If there is doubt about the Deuteronomy passages, please show me where the seven times seven time periods punishments have already been fulfilled. Also, there is a passage in Ezekiel which I cannot locate today, which states there is a time period of extra punishment for Israel equivalent to the time of an unclean woman. When that passage is located we can discuss further it's implications.

God Bless You

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:06 am

Exit40 wrote:Well then, have you explored the following Scriptures for understanding before you call the Word of God nonsensical ? And yes that statement is intended to challenge your insult



David, let me say that I have NEVER called the Word of God nonsensical - it's your application and/or interpretation thereof that I most absolutely call nonsensical. Just because someone DISAGREES with your private interpretation doesn't make their comments an insult. You really appear to get your feelings hurt very easily - perhaps prayer is in order.

You currently believe that we are in the "midst" of the 70th week. Scripture provides a time period of 70 weeks - not 70 week plus some unknown "GAP" or stoppage in time that lasts for some unspecified, unrecognizable, unlimited - and very unscriptural vacuum of time that MAKES NO SENSE.

So since you appear to be very sensitive about how others disagree about your "private interpretation" then I won't respond to the rest of your comments. This is about edifying the Body of Christ - not someone's ego.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:37 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I'm going to research why Mr. Baldy and Shorttribber have a different interpretation than you do


HI Woody!

Hope all is well with you. I want to let you know that Keith and I only have a minor disagreement - and it is only about the timing of when the sacrifices were stopped - and/or the application thereof. We both believe that he 70th week were contiguous. Let me add that it was Keith's historical input that actually allowed me to look at the 70th week in a more practical way of interpreting the 70th week. When I actually understood that the First Jewish Roman War applied to the prophecies set forth in Daniel 12:11-12 then it just made complete sense.

In my very humble opinion to think that the 70th week has not been completely fulfilled would be to "sensationalize" or "spiritualize" the proper interpretation of Scripture. Unfortunately, there are many - to include myself at one time, who are guilty of doing this. I can no longer support this very faulty way of interpretation.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:59 am

I believe the 70 weeks are fulfilled also, it seem pretty obvious. I believe there is a coning 1260 days of Great Tribulations,
I believe the coming wrath of God is going to end this world...

Shorttribber,
How did you come up with 1335 days as in years in you theory that add up to this coming Fall?
I have learned so much from you guys and I want to thank you... I've always thought the 70th week was never fulfilled....
Last edited by WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:07 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Note above, that I said "ALL the Sacrifices Point To Christ and the Everlasting Covenant"....Please Keep that in Mind as you form your answer as to whether the "Types and Shadows" have nothing to do regarding ANY Application to the Completion of the 70th week.

Mr Baldy wrote: In your aforementioned comments you mention the "Types and Shadows" - which I completely understand. But let me say that the "Types and Shadows" as it may apply to the Fulfillment of the 70th Week has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the 70th week has been fulfilled.

You are right Shorty, my aforementioned comment does need clarification. My comment was a response to your belief that the "Types and Shadows" as it relates to the 70th week is still something future - which I disagree with. My comment was intended to say that the "Types and Shadows" HAVE been already been completed as it relates to the 70th week, and the fulfillment thereof has absolutely nothing to do with any application to future requirements.


Mr.B,
Seems quite impossible that we should ever understand a Type and Shadow without "spiritualizing" (Understanding the Spiritual Aspect of the Type or Shadow)

ALL the Sacrifices WERE a Type and Shadow of the Everlasting Abrahamic Covenant IN Christ Mr. B.

Let me pick just One (Everlasting Righteousness) that Relates to the 70 weeks.

now, can you tell me WHEN That FIRST CONFIMATION OF That EVERLASTING Abrahamic Covenant Occurred? How is What Occurred a Type and Shadow (THE FIRST) of the New Covenant in Christ?
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:46 am

Shorttribber,
What difference does it make whether the 70th week is complete or not?
Is it because you have a theory that need to apply to the incomplete 70th week?
Just wondering.....
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:22 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Shorttribber,
What difference does it make whether the 70th week is complete or not?
Is it because you have a theory that need to apply to the incomplete 70th week?
Just wondering.....

Truth is all that Matters Woody.

The difference is, When the Second have of the 70th week begins, it is important that know it.
At this point though, I'm convinced that the Lord Himself will give us the understanding we need, but I do think that the things we teach Now, God will use when That Time comes.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:53 am

shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:Shorttribber,
What difference does it make whether the 70th week is complete or not?
Is it because you have a theory that need to apply to the incomplete 70th week?
Just wondering.....

Truth is all that Matters Woody.

The difference is, When the Second have of the 70th week begins, it is important that know it.
At this point though, I'm convinced that the Lord Himself will give us the understanding we need, but I do think that the things we teach Now, God will use when That Time comes.


I agree and I know what you're saying, but let's say the 70th week is fulfilled, there is still the coming of the 3 1/2 years from Revelations... I see that most of us believe the remaining 3 1/2 years is yet to come.

Blessings,
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:03 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
WOODHENOT3 wrote:Shorttribber,<br abp="716">What difference does it make whether the 70th week is complete or not?<br abp="717">Is it because you have a theory that need to apply to the incomplete 70th week?<br abp="718">Just wondering.....
<br abp="719">Truth is all that Matters Woody. <br abp="720"><br abp="721">The difference is, When the Second have of the 70th week begins, it is important that know it.<br abp="722">At this point though, I'm convinced that the Lord Himself will give us the understanding we need, but I do think that the things we teach Now, God will use when That Time comes.
<br abp="723"><br abp="724">I agree and I know what you're saying, but let's say the 70th week is fulfilled, there is still the coming of the 3 1/2 years from Revelations... I see that most of us believe the remaining 3 1/2 years is yet to come.<br abp="725"><br abp="726">Blessings,


No Woody, most believe that 7 years is coming...thus the reason I try to show the truth of the matter.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:24 am

No Woody, most believe that 7 years is coming...thus the reason I try to show the truth of the matter.[/quote]

I was referring to the people in this thread, sorry I didn't specify and yes, Most Christians believe in the 7 years...
Most Christians refuse to change their views because it's so popular and they don't bother researching for themselves....
Some tends to get so arrogant about their popular views.....deceiving....
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:29 am

WOODHENOT3 wrote: ST wroteNo Woody, most believe that 7 years is coming...thus the reason I try to show the truth of the matter.

Woody answered :I was referring to the people in this thread, sorry I didn't specify and yes, Most Christians believe in the 7 years...
Most Christians refuse to change their views because it's so popular and they don't bother researching for themselves....
Some tends to get so arrogant about their popular views.....deceiving....

That's very true.
I thought maybe you were referring to just the posters on this thread also, but the readers are many I think, and They need to hear the truth of the matter.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:47 am

They need to hear the truth of the matter.


:a3:
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:47 am

Shorttrib, Mr. Baldy, David, Woody, and Readers,

Just a reminder, I don't have an end times theory.

So, please, do not make the mistake of assuming I think all end time prophecies have been fulfilled.
Quite frankly, in order for me to form an end time theory, I would have to identify every single prophecy then research history to pinpoint which ones have been fulfilled, identifying the events that fulfilled them, then after believing I have completed the task successfully, which I would have doubts about, I would then have to examine those that remain and form a theory from those.

It is just way too much work.
So, when people talk about a remaining 3 1/2 years from Revelation, remember, I do not have an opinion on this.

Daniel 9:24-27 contains multiple abominations and desolations not just one.
We see these even today with the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount.
Are there more to come? Maybe. I just don't have enough knowledge to form an opinion.

So, please, do not assume I think everything has been completed.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:22 pm

One thing for sure Keith, you've been very constant in mentioning that. And it is good to know each of our limitations.
As for me, my general weak areas pertain to all the historic kingdoms and such....I think we all assist each other with the various areas of studies we've spent our time primarily on.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:46 pm

shorttribber wrote:One thing for sure Keith, you've been very constant in mentioning that. And it is good to know each of our limitations.
As for me, my general weak areas pertain to all the historic kingdoms and such....I think we all assist each other with the various areas of studies we've spent our time primarily on.


You know what shorttrib, I have learned a lot in this thread.
I was thinking just today how good studying with you guys has been for me.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:19 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Hi Keith. Sorry for not getting back sooner. Time constraints and further exploration kept my attention. I would love to be able to say specifically how long the time period is from the time of Christ's crucifixion to the end of the punishment of the Jews, national Israel and blood kin. However, that issue will have to remain a mystery as the Scripture has not been revealed to me, nor anyone else, as to the length of the desolations on the Temple Mount, which continues today and is part of the punishment of the Jews.

<snip>

God Bless You

David


The Bible does reveal to us the length of time of the punishment of the Nation of Israel in that it repeatedly states that it will be for two ages, which is a little over 2,000 years.

The end of their punishment will be when the kings of the earth assemble at Armageddon with their armies and are judged with the heavenly hosts and are then imprisoned to await the time of their punishment.

Joel 2 2 is one such verse which tells us that the size of the army that comes up against Jerusalem will not be seen again for a period of two ages, but the KJV of the English translation uses the word "even to" as if the time period is infinite whereas the Hebrew word from Strong's definition is about a finite period which is so long that we cannot comprehend the time as the end point seems to vanish into the distant future.

But, it requires much understanding to be able to work it out.

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:50 pm

keithareilly wrote:Shorttrib, Mr. Baldy, David, Woody, and Readers,Just a reminder, I don't have an end times theory.So, please, do not make the mistake of assuming I think all end time prophecies have been fulfilled.


Keith, I believe that you have made that quite clear.

WOODHENOT3 wrote:I agree and I know what you're saying, but let's say the 70th week is fulfilled, there is still the coming of the 3 1/2 years from Revelations... I see that most of us believe the remaining 3 1/2 years is yet to come.


Woody, the problem is that MOST don't want to see that the 70th week has been fulfilled -because it destroys their End Time Eschatological Theories. They would literally have to go back to the basics and revamp everything thing they came to learn and discover over a period of many years. This includes most Theologians who are too PROUD to admit that they were WRONG - even some that know in their hearts that they are wrong and are teaching a faulty doctrine.
Not only that, there is too much money for them to loose.

Here in San Antonio Texas for instance we have Pastor John Hagee. I came from a dental appointment one day and drove on his campus looking for a quicker route home, only to discover that his name is literally written over a few of the Buildings. I was amazed that someone could be so vain. I sort of put that in the same category as those Theologians who want to inscribe their names on the "Word of God" - meaning certain bibles. Like the "John Hagee Study Bible"...he certainly isn't the only one however. John Hagee come to mind because he LOVES to sell fear, and he is local. He has authored many books - putting out pure garbage about "Blood Moons" and his faulty "Pre-tribulation Rapture" nonsense. Now, how many millions do you think he has made in the name of "fear" and "Deception"?
I'm telling you, every time something appears to get "HOT" in the Middle East the man puts forth a Book - which often tells how he is the "Subject Matter Expert" on the things that are going on over there. Well, he has been WRONG!
And he's just one of many that satisfy the minds, often ticking the ears of well meaning Christians with "sophistry" and "sensationalism". It's really sad.

We even had those who have stated that former President Obama was the Antichrist, and the AOD is soon to come; making predictions on the timing of His Coming; Blood Moons mean this, or it means that - and the Rapture of the Church will take place on this day or that day......well - how many of them were right?

I'm just tired of the deception - sensationalism and the sophistry. Just want the Truth.

You have mentioned this Final 3.5 year period of time - which Scripture Clearly Teaches. This is what I believe also. What is amazing is that some just STILL want to tie it into the prophecy of the 70th week - yet fail miserably to interpret the proper use of the exegetical application. This is why I have asked, as you have just asked "in a round about way" - and that is why are the 3.5 years still applicable to the 70th week? Why is it still considered?

Is it a viable option to believe that it has NOTHING to do with the 70th week - and is it's OWN Prophecy within itself likely because the Disciples asked Jesus the Sign of His Coming? Is it reasonable to believe that Jesus referred them back to the Prophet Daniel because of what Daniel wrote, and the events that occurred therein were
"Types and Shadows" of what would PRECEED His ultimate Revelation in Glory after the Final 3.5 years?

We have those who believe that there is still a "mysterious" 7 years just hidden in the universe somewhere, and will someday appear and magically reattach itself to current time in order complete the 70 week. Then we have those who believe that half of the 70 week or 3.5 years have already been completed - and again the rest of time that is continuing in the interim is how reasonable logic would have it as: "make believe" or "none existent" - or better yet is "Non Sequitur" as it relates to the period of time that has begun. Now does ANY of that actually make sense?

What they both have in common is a "GAP" that cannot be proven with Scripture. This is why I can no longer support the "GAP" theory. It's man made - and it makes absolutely NO Sense.

The Final 3.5 year period of time appears to be independent of the 70 week PERIOD.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:50 am

Mr Baldy wrote:David, let me say that I have NEVER called the Word of God nonsensical - it's your application and/or interpretation thereof that I most absolutely call nonsensical. Just because someone DISAGREES with your private interpretation doesn't make their comments an insult. You really appear to get your feelings hurt very easily - perhaps prayer is in order.


Mr B, disagreement is one thing, calling anothers view nonsensical is quite another. Would you agree with that ? Do you consider the words and phrases you use to discredit anothers view to be edifying the Body of Christ when you disagree ?

You currently believe that we are in the "midst" of the 70th week. Scripture provides a time period of 70 weeks - not 70 week plus some unknown "GAP" or stoppage in time that lasts for some unspecified, unrecognizable, unlimited - and very unscriptural vacuum of time that MAKES NO SENSE.


Well, I am sorry you don't understand how the Scriptures are presented for the view they represent. Prophecy is not clear about some things, very clear about others, so we have these discussions trying to ascertain what is meant, for our future. But your language here is in fact insulting, as you state without reservation why you believe anothers view is WRONG according to your interpretation, and how you were too actually as you formerly held a similar view you are now discrediting with such fervor. Presumably you are now RIGHT in your present interpretation then ? I wonder when time presents again that your present holding of a view is proven in error, as opposed to wrong, or if you are further enlightened or by revelation, if you will be as fervent in your rejection of your own former understanding again.

So since you appear to be very sensitive about how others disagree about your "private interpretation" then I won't respond to the rest of your comments. This is about edifying the Body of Christ - not someone's ego.


Mr B, every single end time view any of us hold together or apart, is in fact of private interpretation, as we are unable to discern the future with accuracy. And I have thought about your statement here, and prayed about it before posting my issue with your language. Perhaps ego is involved, perhaps you and I are very direct in our posts and statements and don't realize how adversely we may be affecting others. I know I get direct sometimes, as do you. Hopefully I do not insult a 'person', rather a method of presentation that is improper, not only in my estimation but according to Scripture. For one thing though, I do not in one post state my amazement at someone elses' belief being in such great error, and then in another post state anything 'in my humble opinion'. I recall you leaving the board for a while after one of my 'direct statements', unintentionally on my part, insulted you, to your amazement and subsequent apparent sensitivity. At any rate, I will pray about this issue, and listen to others about my own presentation, including you Sir. Feel free to respond to my comments or not, I will do the same. Perhaps you will think about this and pray over it too. Or perhaps another will weigh in for the edification of both of us. I will be happy to accept a proper tune up. With that being said, I think I have presented much of the Scriptural information necessary to form a view about this very contentious issue.

God Bless You

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:06 am

Hi Mr Baldy,
I was referring to you, ST, some of those from this thread and I that believe in 3 1/2 years, I do know all the False popular views that many people are so deceived with... I met with many pastors explaining their false teachings on the popu;ar views...I agree what you said above... :)

Many blessings....

Keith,
Do you believe Jesus will ever RETURN again?
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:36 am

Woody wrote,
Keith,
Do you believe Jesus will ever RETURN again?


Yes, He shall return.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:41 pm

keithareilly wrote:Woody wrote,
Keith,
Do you believe Jesus will ever RETURN again?


Yes, He shall return.


Amen, nice and simple!!
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:55 pm

Exit40 wrote:Mr B, disagreement is one thing, calling anothers view nonsensical is quite another. Would you agree with that ? Do you consider the words and phrases you use to discredit anothers view to be edifying the Body of Christ when you disagree ?


David perhaps a proper understanding of the word "nonsensical" is in order here. It means "having no meaning" or "making no sense". It's one's opinion - and an opinion only. It's not an offensive word whatsoever - so if you internalized my opinion and had your feelings hurt, then I sincerely apologize. I'll use a more gentler tone when or if I ever respond to anymore of your comments.

Exit40 wrote:Well, I am sorry you don't understand how the Scriptures are presented for the view they represent.


David, just because someone disagrees with your view doesn't mean you have the proper interpretation - or you are the Subject Matter Expert because you expressed a certain view, and because you expressed it - it just has to be right.
This is a "Debate" Forum - there will be those who disagree with your assessment - and this certainly doesn't mean that "they don't understand how the Scriptures are presented."

Exit40 wrote:But your language here is in fact insulting, as you state without reservation why you believe anothers view is WRONG according to your interpretation, and how you were too actually as you formerly held a similar view you are now discrediting with such fervor.


I believe in all fairness - it would be proper to post what you found "insulting". David again, this is a Debate Forum. It is good to present what you think is wrong, supported by evidence as to why you think it is wrong. I have NEVER to my knowledge purposely insulted anyone - and if by chance I may have, then I immediately apologized, and asked for forgiveness. I can certainly assure you that I have never personally directed any insults to anyone - Ever on this forum. Again, if you have personally internalized my "opinions" and it hurt your feelings - then I apologize to you. It is not my intent to hurt anyone.

Exit40 wrote: I think I have presented much of the Scriptural information necessary to form a view about this very contentious issue.


Exactly, your view is what you formed - and I wholeheartedly disagree with it, and even say it makes no sense to me. That's the purpose of a healthy debate. I don't think that me mentioning that a persons view makes no sense should be internalized, or they should find it insulting - as there is no intent to hurt. But we all are very different, and take things different ways - some are more sensitive than others. So once again, if I have offended you with my words - then please accept my sincerest apology.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:07 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:
Hi Mr Baldy,I was referring to you, ST, some of those from this thread and I that believe in 3 1/2 years, I do know all the False popular views that many people are so deceived with... I met with many pastors explaining their false teachings on the popu;ar views...I agree what you said above... :)


Thanks Woody!

Let's be True Soldiers for Christ and continue to spread the Good News!

Deception is Real, Spiritual Warfare is Real and has infiltrated most Churches.....stay Strong, and stay Encouraged!
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:30 pm

Hi Mr Baldy

Deception is Real, Spiritual Warfare is Real and has infiltrated most Churches.....stay Strong, and stay Encouraged![
Deception is Real, Spiritual Warfare is Real and has infiltrated most Churches.....stay Strong, and stay Encouraged!

Thanks Mr Baldy, you are so correct...it is real...hey, you stay encouraged too!!
Many blessings....
Many Christians are so deceived, they believe everything their pastors say without questioning or checking scriptures.... I know too many dumb sheep walking the wrong direction... they follow man and not the Holy Spirit...

Anyway, may I ask, whats your view now regarding to the days we are living in since now Daniel 9 is fulfilled?

Always STAND up for JESUS, Amen!!
In Christ Always,
Woody
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 27, 2017 6:26 pm

WOODHENOT3 wrote:Anyway, may I ask, whats your view now regarding to the days we are living in since now Daniel 9 is fulfilled? Always STAND up for JESUS, Amen!!


Amen!

Woody, I have to state that I am still looking very hard at the ENP - just with a very different set of lenses now. We must remember HOW Jesus responded to the Disciples when they came to Him privately concerning the End of the Age:

Matthew 24:3 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Signs of Christ’s Return

3) As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


This is what Jesus said as He addressed the latter part of the Disciples question - and occurs prior to His Return:

15) “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16) then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17) Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18) Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19) But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20) But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21) For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22) Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.


If you'll notice, Jesus tells us that when you see the AOD spoken of thought Daniel the prophet - well this is when things will get "HOTTER", as this event will bring on "A Great Tribulation" - (emphasis mine). I have embolden, and enlarged the words let the reader understand, because it does require understanding. So the question becomes, what does this mean? Why is understanding needed to know what the AOD spoken of through the prophet Daniel means?

Well I think that it directly relates to the proper interpretation of a specific AOD - meaning the one mentioned in Daniel 9:27. Now the question becomes - is Daniel 9:27 a 7 year Covenant with Many; or a unrelated 3.5 year period of time when the Desolater appears?

Well I happen to believe it is the latter. It is very specific period in time in which the Antichrist will come on the scene and "Stand" in the Holy Place showing himself "as" God. It is a time unrelated to the 70th week, as I believe that the 70th week has already been completed. It is further a 3.5 year period of time that matches the events set forth in Revelation 11, 12, & 13.

Now the question becomes, how does this relate to the ENP Theory. Well, if you have been following the ENP Theory it in itself is a very literal 7 year Covenant with Many; and the events set forth from it's inception are so uncannily eerie, in that it matches up so well with what has been described in Revelation 13, that it most definitely cannot be overlooked. This is why I say that I have not taken my eyes off of it - nor will I anytime soon. I just view it now as an "indicator" that may point the way to the coming Antichrist.

So in closing, I think that the very next event for us to be watching is for a Leader to Arise, that will ultimately commit the AOD. There is no "imminent" Rapture of the Church as many believe as the Church cannot be removed until the Antichrist has been revealed - and this verse of Scripture proves it:

2 Thessalonians 2: 1-4 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Man of Lawlessness

1) Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2) that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3) Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4) who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.


Woody, the aforementioned passages of Scripture definitely prove that the Coming of Jesus AND our Gathering together to Him - will NOT come unless the "apostasy comes first" and the "man of lawlessness is revealed". We know the "man of lawlessness" as the coming Antichrist. But there are those in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture camp who will say that the Return of Christ is "imminent" and it "can happen at anytime" or "We will be in Heaven" for 7 years during a "so-called 7 year Tribulation Period. Well, the aforementioned passage of Scripture speaks differently.

The next event to happen is the AOD.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Mr. B., Please let us all know what timeframe the following text refers to.

Those times that are in Blue is what I hope you will answer about.

Daniel 7

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:55 am

shorttribber wrote:Mr. B., Please let us all know what timeframe the following text refers to.

Those times that are in Blue is what I hope you will answer about.

Daniel 7

16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


Shorty, this timeframe is the Final 3.5 year period. Everything that you specifically have mentioned works in harmony with Revelation 11, 12, & 13.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:49 am

Well, you beat me too an apology, which I intended to offer this morning Mr B. I hope you will accept mine too Brother. I think we are kindred Spirits in many ways, and maybe tend to butt heads a little more often as a result. On that note, when we finally come to agreement on something we will be a great team I believe. Getting to that point is the difficult part, but I am certain we will do this together. However, my feelings have not been injured, I am not sure I even have any personal feelings. Except when I perceive an insult to the Scriptures or anothers' view of what they believe they say I feel compelled to speak out. I should and can soften my language too and rather than jump in I should ask a question about what is meant instead. I will work on this.

Exit40 wrote:Well, I am sorry you don't understand how the Scriptures are presented for the view they represent.


David, just because someone disagrees with your view doesn't mean you have the proper interpretation - or you are the Subject Matter Expert because you expressed a certain view, and because you expressed it - it just has to be right.
This is a "Debate" Forum - there will be those who disagree with your assessment - and this certainly doesn't mean that "they don't understand how the Scriptures are presented."


Mr B, any one of us can express the same thoughts and be correct. However, being right is not the issue, ego is not the issue. I know you believe this and act on it yourself, it is the proper understanding of Scripture we defend so vigorously. An understanding or not of a view of the way Scripture is presented is not necessarily a private interpretation or ego issue. I hope what I present is Scriptural evidence that speaks for itself, a witness or two of the concept I believe is being presented. Saying I'm sorry for a lack of understanding is not intended to be an insult either, I hope you can see it that way. My use of the word 'sorry' might better be understood as a loss of some kind. Perhaps it is my issue for not properly teaching the way the Scriptures express what I believe they do. I will attempt to work harder on that.

I have NEVER to my knowledge purposely insulted anyone - and if by chance I may have, then I immediately apologized, and asked for forgiveness. I can certainly assure you that I have never personally directed any insults to anyone.


Nor have I hopefully. I know I am direct at times, as are you, but that is not intended to insult, rather to just be direct. I have not internalized your comments, rather had just perceived them as an insult to Scriptures and anothers understanding of it.

Exit40 wrote: I think I have presented much of the Scriptural information necessary to form a view about this very contentious issue.


Exactly, your view is what you formed - and I wholeheartedly disagree with it, and even say it makes no sense to me. That's the purpose of a healthy debate. I don't think that me mentioning that a persons view makes no sense should be internalized, or they should find it insulting - as there is no intent to hurt. But we all are very different, and take things different ways - some are more sensitive than others. So once again, if I have offended you with my words - then please accept my sincerest apology.


Thanks for your explanations on this Mr B. Once again, I am not injured, just perceived an insult to the Scriptures. My error then for which I again apologize too.

God Bless You Brother

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Tue Mar 28, 2017 6:33 am

15) “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Do you think he was warning the disciples of the coming 70AD war at that time? We know that now its completed...right?

Does it have to be a "covenant with Many"?

I think we all know what to expect when the day the AC is STAMDING in the HOLY PLACE.... we would know its the beginning of the Great Tribulations....

Also, do you think the Apostasy is speaking of the Apostate church as today or when the AC reveals is when the apostasy begins?

IMO, I would think the ENP is long dead, but I could be wrong.....
In Christ Always,
Woody
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