Who is HE?

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Mar 11, 2017 10:55 pm

Mr. Baldy, Shorttrib and David,

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Notice Jesus says from the beginning of the world until now and never again. He is placing the event in that time frame. Also notice his statement about how bad the event shall be.

Here is an interesting fact.
The number of Jews killed during just the fall of Jerusalem was between 600,000 (Tacitus) and 1 million (Josephus).
The number of people killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined is between 130,000 and 226,000.

Notice that two nuclear bombs did not come close to causing the number of deaths of the 70AD event.
I hope this gives you a better picture of the scale of destruction of the 70AD event.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:57 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy, Shorttrib and David,

Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Notice Jesus says from the beginning of the world until now and never again. He is placing the event in that time frame. Also notice his statement about how bad the event shall be.



[color]KJV Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.[/color]

Hi Keith. The context of these passages is from the time of the AoD. If the translation is 'now', why is there no AoD right then, or in 70AD ? And how are those days shortened ? Was the sun darkened, or the moon faded ? Was there a sign of the Son of man in the heavens > in context, all these things must happen too, along with the AoD and GT. As none of these things have happened in conjunction with the destruction of 70 AD, this is still a future event/s.

These are facts too: 6 million Jews dies in the Holocaust, an estimated 20 million died in Russia under Stalin. Maybe a couple million died in the genocide of the Christians and Armenians in Turkey post WWI. I can't remember how many died in the Cultural Revolution of Mao's China. We can go on and on with the horrors of what we humans have done to each other in the past, but context is context. Certain things mentioned have to happen in conjunction with an AoD, the one mentioned in Daniel. This remains a future event, I believe.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:21 am

David,

The desolation of 70AD was an abomination; temple destroyed, Holy people killed.


And 50 million people died in WWII. WWII lasted 6 years and took place around the world.

The 70AD event was a single city where many people were killed so quickly the blood flowing in the streets was putting out fires.

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:43 am

Jay Ross wrote:This parable stands on its own message. The message is that God planted a fig tree with the birth of Isaac and the fig tree represents the nation of Israel. Who is the dresser of the vineyard? Well the passage is silent on who the dresser of the vineyard is, however some would suggest that it is Christ.


Why Isaac and not Abraham ? Because that doesn't fit your time line. More appropriately, as Israel is often represented by a fig tree in Scripture, it should be Jacob whose birth, or maybe when the Lord renamed him Israel, that would best represent your conjecture of the beginning of that particular timeline.

How long is the growing season of the fruit from bud to full ripeness within that last year ? The first question that has to be answered is the meaning of the Greek word "ἔτη". Thayer's Lexicon suggest that its meaning is "the passing of time," so that where this Greek word has been translated as "year" it could have been translated as "after the passing of a long period of time, i.e. and age" in this case 3 ages, the owner of the vineyard came to inspect the fig tree and found no fruit on the tree and he wanted the fig tree to be destroyed. The dresser, pleads that the fig tree be given one more age in which it needs to repent. Now your question is a reference to Matthew 24:32 which tells us that from the time that you see the fig tree begin to bud once more that the end of the fourth age of their existence will be drawing to an end. This end is referenced in the Luke 13 parable of the vineyard which has a fig tree planted in it. The Matthew parable is only one verse in length and its timespan from an agricultural perspective spans around 90 pus days depending on the actual start of the Spring season, i.e. whether or not it is an early or late Spring start. Applying the accepted year for a day timespan for this prophecy, the prophecy given by Christ in this one verse covers a time span of 90 plus years.


I'm not buying the 'long' period of time you suggest. Every interpretation of this suggests a one year period of actual time, as in growing season from year to year. The simple reading is usually the best reading, even for a parable. I don't see the Greek word "ἔτη" in these passages, where are you getting this ? My source says the Greek word for years is Etos, ἔτος , throughout this Parable, which actually states the word only twice. It also suggest, according to your interpretation, Christ as the dresser, as it would be He that fertilizes the 'tree' for the last year, which presumably is the Millennium.

G1763 - denotes a year as viewed as a cycle or period of time
G2094 - denotes a year as a division or sectional portion of time


I too suggest the dresser is Christ, it follows suit in the manner of the Parables Jesus taught. And I believe this Parable represents the time of Christ's Ministry to the Jews, which I also believe represents 3.5 years. While this Parable doesn't specifically say that exact period of time, it is a Parable and not meant to be so precise. I don't believe the Matt 24:32 verse has anything to o with this Parable.

I trust that this explanation helps.


It helps me understand your timeline, in that it is an addition to why you believe as you do. I am still confused as to what you believe will happen in the near future. But, let's not get into that in this thread please.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:00 am

Hi Shorty,

I want to revisit something that you said - because it very much relates to coming to a CLEAR understanding of what's going on here:

shorttribber wrote:Mr. B., did you see my post just above yours? I disagree that the Division is Nonsense. On the contrary, I believe it makes perfect sense in light of the Grafting in of the Gentiles. And it is best, even if we do disagree, to not call ANY Possibility that May Exist in Bible prophecy, Nonsense. Even if we think certain matters in scripture make No Sense to us, there are many things with God that Does Not Agree with what we may Commonly Think or Make Sense of. But I will say this, it just does not make sense to Keith or to you apparently. But I assure you, David and myself find a Great Deal of sense in it. I will show you again the types and Shadows in scripture( there are several) that do speak to this matter of the Division of the final week I you want.


Shorty, let me say that I absolutely meant NO disrespect to you or David - to say that this "Division" or "GAP" makes no sense to me is the only way I intended to apply to the comments that you or David has made.

Now, in mentioning that your aforementioned comments certainly appear to be very biased, and that based on your "Short Trib" Theory. So, in essence we both are guilty of doing the same. Now the question becomes:
What is the CORRECT way to view or interpret what has been written in Scripture based on how some see this "GAP" AND believe that this Final Week stretches to some UNKNOWN time period- subsequently placing the "Church Age" in an unforeseen, unimaginable time period they have identified as the "Midst" of this Final Week.
How does that make sense? :dunno:

And this is what I respectfully question.

In your aforementioned comments you mention the "Types and Shadows" - which I completely understand. But let me say that the "Types and Shadows" as it may apply to the Fulfillment of the 70th Week has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the 70th week has been fulfilled. In other words, one may reflect "What is to Come" - but has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the event in itself. Therefore, I believe that the 70th week has been fulfilled, and the Historical evidence proves it.

The Final 3.5 years are yet to come - & it has nothing to do with the 70th wk.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:27 am

I will respond later Mr. B.

Blessings to ya :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:49 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:This parable stands on its own message. The message is that God planted a fig tree with the birth of Isaac and the fig tree represents the nation of Israel. Who is the dresser of the vineyard? Well the passage is silent on who the dresser of the vineyard is, however some would suggest that it is Christ.


Why Isaac and not Abraham ? Because that doesn't fit your time line. More appropriately, as Israel is often represented by a fig tree in Scripture, it should be Jacob whose birth, or maybe when the Lord renamed him Israel, that would best represent your conjecture of the beginning of that particular timeline.


Why Isaac and not Abraham?

Abraham is given a covenantal undertaking by God some 50 or so years before the birth of Isaac while he was still living in Ur of the Chaldeans. Isaac’s birth is the confirmation of that covenantal undertaking by God and is the beginning of the descendant generations that will be Abraham’s descendants. We have a time marker of when Isaac was born, and his birth was at the very beginning of the third Age of Mankind.

Yes, with respect to Jacob, we know that Isaac was 60 years old when Jacob and Esau were born, but as to the year in which God renamed Jacob, “Israel,” the bible is silent as to when this event took place. What we do know however is that Jacob is a second descendant generation of Abraham, with Isaac being the first descendant generation.

Now you are saying that my views are conjecture but you are using conjecture as a means of suggesting that my presented views are flawed. Because of this, your argument against what I have presented is a false argument and as such you have not presented any evidence to disprove the view I expressed concerning the Parable in Luke 13:6-9.

Exit40 wrote:
How long is the growing season of the fruit from bud to full ripeness within that last year ? The first question that has to be answered is the meaning of the Greek word "ἔτη". Thayer's Lexicon suggest that its meaning is "the passing of time," so that where this Greek word has been translated as "year" it could have been translated as "after the passing of a long period of time, i.e. and age" in this case 3 ages, the owner of the vineyard came to inspect the fig tree and found no fruit on the tree and he wanted the fig tree to be destroyed. The dresser, pleads that the fig tree be given one more age in which it needs to repent. Now your question is a reference to Matthew 24:32 which tells us that from the time that you see the fig tree begin to bud once more that the end of the fourth age of their existence will be drawing to an end. This end is referenced in the Luke 13 parable of the vineyard which has a fig tree planted in it. The Matthew parable is only one verse in length and its timespan from an agricultural perspective spans around 90 pus days depending on the actual start of the Spring season, i.e. whether or not it is an early or late Spring start. Applying the accepted year for a day timespan for this prophecy, the prophecy given by Christ in this one verse covers a time span of 90 plus years.


I'm not buying the 'long' period of time you suggest. Every interpretation of this suggests a one year period of actual time, as in growing season from year to year. The simple reading is usually the best reading, even for a parable. I don't see the Greek word "ἔτη" in these passages, where are you getting this ? My source says the Greek word for years is Etos, ἔτος , throughout this Parable, which actually states the word only twice. It also suggest, according to your interpretation, Christ as the dresser, as it would be He that fertilizes the 'tree' for the last year, which presumably is the Millennium.

G1763 - denotes a year as viewed as a cycle or period of time
G2094 - denotes a year as a division or sectional portion of time


Yes, I copied the wrong Greek word over into my post and I will need to correct my original post. It should have been “ἔτος” as you have stated.

Yes the simple meaning of the parable is as you suggest, however, the meaning as I am suggesting would not have been lost on the Priests, etc. and they would have understood the message that Christ was giving.

Christ was answering the following Question: - Luke 13:1-5: - 1 At that time, some of those present told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices.…2 To this He replied, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate?…3 No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5 No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”…

When was Jesus saying that they had to repent by for their iniquities? Was it during His first advent, i.e. during His 3.5 years of ministry, or was it by the end of their iniquities being visited upon their children and their children’s children? I would suggest to you that from our vantage point today and Pauls’ teaching, that they have up and until the end of this Age for all individual Israelites to repent of their iniquities/sins and if they do not, then those unrepentant Israelites will perish.

Jesus in telling this parable, was pointing towards the end of the Fourth Age of the existence of the Israelite Nation as the cut off time for them to repent otherwise they would perish.

Exit40 wrote:
I trust that this explanation helps.


It helps me understand your timeline, in that it is an addition to why you believe as you do. I am still confused as to what you believe will happen in the near future. But, let's not get into that in this thread please.

God Bless You

David


David, I have already stated as to what will happen in the near future and I agree with you, I should not have to state it again. Anybody who has read what I post will know.

Shalom.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:23 am

Jay Ross wrote:Now you are saying that my views are conjecture but you are using conjecture as a means of suggesting that my presented views are flawed. Because of this, your argument against what I have presented is a false argument and as such you have not presented any evidence to disprove the view I expressed concerning the Parable in Luke 13:6-9.


G1763 - denotes a year as viewed as a cycle or period of time
G2094 - denotes a year as a division or sectional portion of time


Yes, I copied the wrong Greek word over into my post and I will need to correct my original post. It should have been “ἔτος” as you have stated.

Yes the simple meaning of the parable is as you suggest, however, the meaning as I am suggesting would not have been lost on the Priests, etc. and they would have understood the message that Christ was giving.


So you post the wrong word, to which I cannot find to appropriately respond, agree with what I suggest, then offer a better suggestion, then say I am using conjecture to state your conjecture is flawed, even though you have agreed with my first 'conjecture'. Talking with you is like talking into a cave, the echo returns garbled and confused 2X3. Always with you it is your proof is better, even without proof. Like which Scripture is proof of Issac being the start of the age ? Or how is it the Priests would have understood it as you do ? Your statement is not enough, Scripture holds an answer if there is one anyone but you can discern. I give up with you, your haughtiness in your own interpretation and attempted word smithing as proof is false humility and is beyond my ability to deal with. Every time it becomes this. :doh:

Via con Dios

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:33 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
The Final 3.5 years are yet to come - & it has nothing to do with the 70th wk.


Why does 7+62+1 not equal 70 ? And what event marks the end of that 70th week which fulfills the requirements of verse 24 ? Pardon me if the proof has been stated, memory fails me, or I am not convinced yet.

God Bless You'
'
David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:43 am

David wrote,
Why does 7+62+1 not equal 70 ?

Of course it does. We just don't agree on which week was the 70th.

Was it the one week AFTER the 7 and 62, the week in which Christ was crucified "cut-off", an event mentioned as part of the 70 weeks prophecy, and an event needed to accomplish the the goals of verse 24, and a week immediately following the 7 and 62 as prophesied resulting in a 70 week period in which the prophecy was fulfilled?
Or
Was it the week mentioned in verse 27 which did not occur during a 70 week period, which contains events not necessary to accomplish the goals listed in verse 24, a week historical evidence places outside the 70 weeks time frame?


David also wrote...
And what event marks the end of that 70th week which fulfills the requirements of verse 24 ? Pardon me if the proof has been stated, memory fails me, or I am not convinced yet.


There is no reason to have an event mark the end of the week in which Christ was crucified. Is there some requirement that a time frame that has run its course must have some event mark when that time frame is completed? If there is a requirement, what prophecy says it marks the end of the 70 weeks? The culmination of all the goals was the crucifixion, Resurrection, and handing the vineyard over to its new tenants, his disciples. The "visitation" came to an end during the final week of the 70 weeks prophesy. Had God's visitation lasted longer, the prophecy would have been for longer.


And the reason I hope to convince you and shorttrib is to discuss the meaning of the goals of verse 24 as completed goals. Leaving the 70th week outstanding implies the goals are also outstanding; this introduces doubt as to what was accomplished by Christs crucifixion and Resurrection.

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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:30 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

So you post the wrong word, to which I cannot find to appropriately respond, . . .

David, I am human and I am capable of admitting that I had err in copying the wrong Greek word, and I thanked you for that and I went back and corrected my original post.

. . . agree with what I suggest, . . .

David, I said, "Yes the simple meaning of the parable is as you suggest, . . . ", which is not a statement of agreement with your acceptance of the simple understanding as being correct. The Nation had access to the yearly Sin Sacrifice during the first two ages of their existence which finished at the time that Christ was born to Mary. Then there is a period of two ages in which God was going to walk contrary to the Nation of Israel just as the Nation of Israel is walking contrary to God with the continuation of their idolatrous worship. This time period is exactly four ages in length, i.e. around 4,070 years have passed since the birth of Isaac, i.e. the passing of four seasons, which in Daniel 7:12 is approximately just over 1,000 years in length.

. . then offer a better suggestion, . . .

Thank you for stating that David.
. . . then say I am using conjecture to state your conjecture is flawed, even though you have agreed with my first 'conjecture'.

David your first conjecture was that this parable was talking about Christs length of ministry. And no I do not agree with your second conjecture that the "simple? reading of this parable is the best understanding to have.

Talking with you is like talking into a cave, the echo returns garbled and confused 2X3. Always with you it is your proof is better, even without proof. Like which Scripture is proof of Issac being the start of the age ? Or how is it the Priests would have understood it as you do ? Your statement is not enough, Scripture holds an answer if there is one anyone but you can discern. I give up with you, your haughtiness in your own interpretation and attempted word smithing as proof is false humility and is beyond my ability to deal with. Every time it becomes this. :doh:

Via con Dios

David

David, the simple fact is that unless I agree with your interpretation of scripture, I am wrong, even if I can justify my point of view. You then ask for biblical proof that Isaac was born at the beginning of an age. Isaac was the confirmation of the covenant that God had entered into with Abraham, his birth herald the beginning of a new relationship for mankind with God. Exodus 20:4-6 suggests that there are to be four ages from the beginning of the Nation of Israel until the end of the iniquities being visited on the children and the children's children of the nation. But this is not teased out by looking for the "simple " understanding. This understanding come by allowing God to reveal it to us and us only being open to God's Holy Spirit to reveal it to us.

Now I am not claiming that I am right all of the time, as I can point to examples where I was previously wrong in my understanding of the End Times, however, the arguments presented against what I write do not hold p under valid reasoning.

But for the moment, I will withdraw so that you can continue to flesh out your own understanding of the End times.

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:00 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:The Final 3.5 years are yet to come - & it has nothing to do with the 70th wk.


Exit40 wrote:Why does 7+62+1 not equal 70 ?


keithareilly wrote:Of course it does.


Thanks Keith :mrgreen:

Exit40 wrote:And what event marks the end of that 70th week which fulfills the requirements of verse 24 ?


keithareilly wrote:There is no reason to have an event mark the end of the week in which Christ was crucified


And:

keithareilly wrote:The culmination of all the goals was the crucifixion, Resurrection, and handing the vineyard over to its new tenants, his disciples. The "visitation" came to an end during the final week of the 70 weeks prophesy.


Keith, Thank you for brilliantly answering David's question. In order to understand the Six requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 - I had to completely understand that it was about the Crucifixion & the Resurrection of Christ.
Admittedly, I did not understand that at first. I do now - especially after learning the Historical side of the events that took place. This is also why I believe that the 70th week has been fulfilled.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:13 pm

shorttribber wrote:Oh, ok, but I must add that Daniel 12 is such a Critical Link between what is historic and what remains future that I just can't overstate it's importance in our understanding of Bible Prophecy.

The following verse is WHY......

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.



Shorttrib,

After doing some subsequent research later after you posted this, I have recently concluded that this event is the Bar-Kokhba revolt where the power of the Jews was finally broken. Whatever "all these things are" probably have been completed.

However, I say "probably" because I have not researched "all these things" throughout history to where I can point them out. However, if I am correct in my presumption, and it is a presumption which I cannot at this point defend, then they should be available historically. I must say though, It is unlikely I can do the necessary research and piece this together in the near future to provide historical documentation. So for now, I am just saying at this point in time, I suspect "all these things" might be completed.


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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:19 pm

Keith the Daniel 7:25 expression "time, times and a half" is a reference to a time period as I understand it of three and a half years, whereas the Daniel 12:7 reference to a "time, times and a half" is a reference to a time period as I understand it to a three and a half ages period when all of the wonders etc. will be completed.

If that is the case, then the time period in Daniel 7:25 is still in our distant future and the Daniel 12:7 time period is still unfolding as I write and will be drawing to its completion, after Daniel 7:25 has been completed.

Now when we ignore the demonic influence of the Beasts of Daniel 7, who by the way I perceive as being fallen wicked heavenly hosts/angels, we miss the ebb and flow of their influence over time in the people/people groups who chose to inhabit their respective dominions of influence over people.

The prince in Daniel 9:26b is the little horn, who has been given an army, i.e. the troops of the Roman Empire, which is influenced by one of the four heads of the third beast, to bring destruction and devastation to the Temple and Jerusalem and we can see the little horns influence over a number of people during Christ's first advent, which has been recorded in our history. To only focus on the "human" element of this story means that we mist out on seeing the corresponding demonic spiritual element that plays out along side of the "human" activity in this story of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. In Joel 3, God attributes the destruction of Jerusalem and the selling of the remaining Jewish population as slave to the rest of the world to the power hungry Greek' influence empires that rose up under the influence of the third beast. The Little Horn around the time of Christ also exercised his influence over the third beast and the people living within the dominion of the third beast. The third beast exercised its characteristic of power over the people it influenced and the various people groups who have/are lived/living within the third beast's dominion have manifested this characteristic since the time of Daniel.

The influence of the third beast's dominion is still active today and we only have to look at "empires" and countries that exercise power over other people groups. Some nations that do are relatively small in number while other nations are very large in comparison. The fullness in time of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary in Jerusalem is rapidly drawing to an end in our near future. The signs that confirm this was seen by all of the world as they unfolded.

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:46 pm

Jay,

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. -Wikipedia

In general, I like facts, things that can be observed in time and space, to support a theory. Most of the theories about the future have the problem of having to await for the future to arrive to verify the theory as true. For the most part, I take a wait and see attitude, even when my own theories, which I base upon facts and historical evidence, lead me to make predictions.

Without things that can be observed in time and space, there is no theory, only conjecture.

Jay, you do not present theories; you present conjecture about a realm in which you do not reside.
Perhaps you should consider becoming a novelist; seriously, you demonstrate an aptitude for creating realms.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:16 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. -Wikipedia

In general, I like facts, things that can be observed in time and space, to support a theory. Most of the theories about the future have the problem of having to await for the future to arrive to verify the theory as true. For the most part, I take a wait and see attitude, even when my own theories, which I base upon facts and historical evidence, lead me to make predictions.

Without things that can be observed in time and space, there is no theory, only conjecture.

Jay, you do not present theories; you present conjecture about a realm in which you do not reside.
Perhaps you should consider becoming a novelist; seriously, you demonstrate an aptitude for creating realms.

Keith


Keith, I have been in places where the demonic is a regular daily occurrence and is accepted as the norm by the people who live in those places. Sadly in first world countries like America and the like we deny the existence of the influence of the demonic beasts described in Daniel 7. However, movie directors keep churning out moves based on the influence of the demonic which we also deny exists.

The demonic influence over time is observable and we have close to 2,500 years of observance of the facts since the time of Daniel's prophetic Book, to support what I present as to who the Beasts of Daniel 7 really are. Yes we had human involvement in the activities of the demons and the demonic activity that occurred during the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, and yes we can identify the principle human players of that time who had key roles in the activities unfolding at that time, but they acted under the influence of the Little Horn as recorded in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8. The Little Horn is also active during this present time in association with the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7, and the Little Horn is leading the speaking out of Great things against the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by the people who live within the dominion of the influence of the fourth Beast

As for your statement that I present conjecture about a realm in which I do not reside, that is an unsupported fabrication on your part of the reality in which all of mankind resides in. The influence of Demons and the demonic is real just as it was real in Jesus' day, 2,000 or so years ago, and just as it is real and prevalent in our society today. To claim that demons and the demonic do not exist and that they hold no influence over people is to deny the reality of the world in which we live.

Since the things I present are based on observations with respect to time, place and participants, I do not present conjecture as you are suggesting, but rather what is happening or will happen during these End Times. Also, my observations and conclusions are supported by the scriptures as well.

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:58 am

Jay,

Judges 6:36-40
36 So Gideon said to God, “If You will save Israel by my hand as You have said— 37 look, I shall put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that You will save Israel by my hand, as You have said.” 38 And it was so. When he rose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece together, he wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowlful of water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me, but let me speak just once more: Let me test, I pray, just once more with the fleece; let it now be dry only on the fleece, but on all the ground let there be dew.” 40 And God did so that night. It was dry on the fleece only, but there was dew on all the ground.

Like Gideon, I prefer to have things verified before I build or act upon them.

I wish you well with your presumptions.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:38 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

Judges 6:36-40
36 So Gideon said to God, “If You will save Israel by my hand as You have said— 37 look, I shall put a fleece of wool on the threshing floor; if there is dew on the fleece only, and it is dry on all the ground, then I shall know that You will save Israel by my hand, as You have said.” 38 And it was so. When he rose early the next morning and squeezed the fleece together, he wrung the dew out of the fleece, a bowlful of water. 39 Then Gideon said to God, “Do not be angry with me, but let me speak just once more: Let me test, I pray, just once more with the fleece; let it now be dry only on the fleece, but on all the ground let there be dew.” 40 And God did so that night. It was dry on the fleece only, but there was dew on all the ground.

Like Gideon, I prefer to have things verified before I build or act upon them.

I wish you well with your presumptions.

Keith


Likewise Keith, because you do not accept anything that you cannot verify, then Paul in Ephesians 6:12 is not speaking about the demonic or demons or wicked angels when Paul states: - "but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.," because you have difficulty verifying it.

That the following references are ignored by you because you cannot verify the existence of a demon or demons: -

Matt 7:22, 8:16, 8:31, 9:33, 9:34, 9:34, 10:8, 11:18 12:24, 12:24, 12:27, 12:28, 15:22, 17:18, Mark 1:32, 1:34, 1:34, 1:39, 3:15, 3:22, 3:22, 5:18, 6:13, 7:26, 7:29, 7:30, 9:38, 16:9, 16:17, Luke 4:33, 4:35, 4:41, 7:33, 8:2, 8:27, 8:29, 8:30, 8:33, 8:35, 8:36, 8:38, 9:1, 9:42, 9:49, 10:17, 11:14, ,11:14, 11:15, 11:15, 11:18, 11:19, 11:20, 13:32, John 7:20, 8:48, 8:49, 8:52, 10:20, 10:21, 10:21, 1 Cor 10:20, 10:20, 10:21, 10:21, 1 Tim 4:1, James 2:19, Rev 9:20, 18:2

That there were not demonic spirits that went out to performs signs and wonders for the whole world to see a few years back, because you cannot verify that they were demonic spirits from the evidence available to you and that these demonic spirits did not start the process of causing the "kings" over mankind to begin the preparations for sending their respective armies, in our near future, to the place known as Armageddon?

Keith, you say you are looking for signs to confirm God's "will" like Gideon before you will build or act upon them, but are you accepting the evidence which is available to us all. In Jesus' day, the Jews were looking for a sign to confirm that Jesus was their Messiah, but the sign that they sort was not the sign that Jesus said that he would confirm for them, that was the sign of Jonah, and because of their "required perceived sign" of a "warrior" king, they missed the signs that pointed to the fact that their Messiah was living amongst them at that time.

Likewise we, i.e. people, have "required perceived signs" of the coming end times, and if the signs being revealed to us do not fall in line with "those perceived signs" we will keep looking in all of the wrong places in our attempts to find the "truth" of what is going to happen.

The Bible does provide us with the answers but we have to allow the bible to reveal the truth of what is happening right now so that we gain that understanding.

Keith are the presumptions that you are making, right?

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:15 pm

pre·sump·tion
prəˈzəm(p)SH(ə)n/
noun
plural noun: presumptions
1. an idea that is taken to be true, and often used as the basis for other ideas, although it is not known for certain.
"underlying presumptions about human nature"

2.behavior perceived as arrogant, disrespectful, and transgressing the limits of what is permitted or appropriate.
"he lifted her off the ground and she was enraged at his presumption"
synonyms: brazenness, audacity, boldness, audaciousness, temerity, arrogance, presumptuousness, forwardness;


Jay,

Did I say I do not believe demons exist in this world? No.
Have you verified that I believe demons do not exist is this world? No.
You have made an assumption then failed to verify that assumption.
Upon this unverified assumption, you have constructed conclusions about me.
Thus have you made a presumption (see both definitions).

This is you, propounding conjecture instead of theory.
Thank you for verifying my statement as true.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:50 pm

keithareilly wrote:<snip>

Jay,

Did I say I do not believe demons exist in this world? No.
Have you verified that I believe demons do not exist is this world? No.
You have made an assumption then failed to verify that assumption.
Upon this unverified assumption, you have constructed conclusions about me.
Thus have you made a presumption (see both definitions).

This is you, propounding conjecture instead of theory.
Thank you for verifying my statement as true.

Keith


Keith in reading your statement above, can I presume that you actually believe in Demons? Or should I assume that you have not given me any evidence to say that you actually do?

Now with all due respect, you have presumed that my theories are based on conjecture. Why?

Is it because of this previous statement,
Without things that can be observed in time and space, there is no theory, only conjecture.

Jay, you do not present theories; you present conjecture about a realm in which you do not reside.


Keith, you too are making presumptions about myself.

For your claim that I have presented conjecture about a realm in which I do not reside, to be proved, we both have to wait for the fulfilment of the Biblical Prophecies that are to unfold in our near future, to be able to understand the truth of the matter.

Now if the demonic and demons exist in our present day realm, then we both reside in the realm where the influence of the demonic and demons can be observed in time and space, both past and present.

As such, Keith, have you considered all of the available evidence concerning the destruction of Jerusalem? If not, then you also have presented conjecture, by your very own definition, in explaining the events because you have left out the driving influence for the event(s) that occurred in and around 70 AD. Because we live in this realm, this driving influence is observable if we would only look carefully at the evidence.

God allowed a demonic influence, the little horn, to influence a people to go up against Jerusalem to desolate and devastate the city and the Temple and to scatter the remaining Israelite people to the four corners of the earth.

Yes I agree that both of us can tell the story from the perspective of the people who were involved in Jerusalem's devastation and desolation, but is that the complete story of the events as they unfolded if we ignore the demonic aspects of this story?

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:11 am

Jay,
Now when we ignore the demonic influence of the Beasts of Daniel 7, who by the way I perceive as being fallen wicked heavenly hosts/angels, ...


This statement cannot be verified as true or false. Consequently, it cannot be a theory as it cannot be validated. The assertion is conjecture not theory. One can argue and debate about that which leads to the conclusion, but the conclusion itself cannot be tested for validation or invalidation. Because it cannot be proven or dis-proven it does not add to the base of knowledge. Furthermore, any ideologies based upon this conclusion are also conjecture as they cannot be proven or dis-proven either. Because such a conjecture cannot be proven true or false, it can neither invalidate nor lend credence to another ideology.

I am not saying what you believe is untrue.
I am saying it cannot be proven to be either true or false.
You may be correct. You may be in error. There is no way to determine which.

Because such conjectures cannot be proven true or false, it is pointless to engage in debate concerning them or any ideologies built upon them.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:09 am

shorttribber wrote:I am not saying that it is not 70 weeks. 70 weeks of time do not need to be consecutive, that's what I'm saying, and that Is what God has Already Shown us by Christ's First Appearing. He gave No indication in scripture that the "Coming of the Lord, IN That Day" would not be As ONE DAY. Yet it Was Not and IS NOT One Day.
Why do you still strain at that idea when we Have That Clear Division right in front of our faces?
Are you aware of the types and shadows that I'm speaking of regarding those in the Abrahamic Covenant?

ALL of the Sacrifices Point to Christ and the Everlasting Covenant, including the First CONFIRMATION OF IT in Genesis chapter 15.
Do you even consider it as such, do you know to what I'm referring?


Mr. B.,
Before I comment more with the things I've been gathering to post, please elaborate in a paragraph or two on the following words you've said.....
Mr Baldy wrote:In your aforementioned comments you mention the "Types and Shadows" - which I completely understand. But let me say that the "Types and Shadows" as it may apply to the Fulfillment of the 70th Week has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the 70th week has been fulfilled.


Note above, that I said "ALL the Sacrifices Point To Christ and the Everlasting Covenant"....Please Keep that in Mind as you form your answer as to whether the "Types and Shadows" have nothing to do regarding ANY Application to the Completion of the 70th week.
Last edited by shorttribber on Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:49 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:59 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,
Now when we ignore the demonic influence of the Beasts of Daniel 7, who by the way I perceive as being fallen wicked heavenly hosts/angels, ...


This statement cannot be verified as true or false. Consequently, it cannot be a theory as it cannot be validated. The assertion is conjecture not theory. One can argue and debate about that which leads to the conclusion, but the conclusion itself cannot be tested for validation or invalidation. Because it cannot be proven or dis-proven it does not add to the base of knowledge. Furthermore, any ideologies based upon this conclusion are also conjecture as they cannot be proven or dis-proven either. Because such a conjecture cannot be proven true or false, it can neither invalidate nor lend credence to another ideology.

I am not saying what you believe is untrue.
I am saying it cannot be proven to be either true or false.
You may be correct. You may be in error. There is no way to determine which.

Because such conjectures cannot be proven true or false, it is pointless to engage in debate concerning them or any ideologies built upon them.

Keith


So Keith, based on what you have said above, if the Bible tells us that the Beasts of Daniel 7 are wicked heavenly hosts, and that they are going to be put in a pit/abyss for many days and then punished (Isaiah 24:21-22) and that these same beasts will rise up out of the abyss after the abyss/bottomless pit is unlocked for a little while, before they are punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire by Christ, and which makes Satan time short to overcome the earth, is just conjecture, because it cannot be validated? So because we cannot validate the Bible, it is just conjecture? And because you stated: - "Because it, i.e. let us say the bible, cannot be proven or dis-proven it does not add to the base of knowledge." the Bible cannot be used to support an idea or theory on the end times, then why use the Bible Prophecy to explain what is happening or going to happen in the End Times.

For me, Keith, it is the most reliable source of information about the End Times that we have when our interpretation of its original words matches the message originally encoded within the Bible Text itself.

From communication theory, when the reader comes to the same understanding of the text as was intended by the originator of that text, then we have good communication. However, when the reader does not come to the same understanding as the originator of the encoded message, then all that we have is miss information and we flounder about because the tide of information has not come in to help us and we become/are helpless in our struggles.

Shalom
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:48 pm

Jay,

Seriously, you should consider becoming a novelist.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:21 am

Jay Ross wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Jay,
Now when we ignore the demonic influence of the Beasts of Daniel 7, who by the way I perceive as being fallen wicked heavenly hosts/angels, ...


This statement cannot be verified as true or false. Consequently, it cannot be a theory as it cannot be validated. The assertion is conjecture not theory. One can argue and debate about that which leads to the conclusion, but the conclusion itself cannot be tested for validation or invalidation. Because it cannot be proven or dis-proven it does not add to the base of knowledge. Furthermore, any ideologies based upon this conclusion are also conjecture as they cannot be proven or dis-proven either. Because such a conjecture cannot be proven true or false, it can neither invalidate nor lend credence to another ideology.

I am not saying what you believe is untrue.
I am saying it cannot be proven to be either true or false.
You may be correct. You may be in error. There is no way to determine which.

Because such conjectures cannot be proven true or false, it is pointless to engage in debate concerning them or any ideologies built upon them.

Keith


So Keith, based on what you have said above, if the Bible tells us that the Beasts of Daniel 7 are wicked heavenly hosts, and that they are going to be put in a pit/abyss for many days and then punished (Isaiah 24:21-22) and that these same beasts will rise up out of the abyss after the abyss/bottomless pit is unlocked for a little while, before they are punished by being thrown into the Lake of Fire by Christ, and which makes Satan time short to overcome the earth, is just conjecture, because it cannot be validated? So because we cannot validate the Bible, it is just conjecture? And because you stated: - "Because it, i.e. let us say the bible, cannot be proven or dis-proven it does not add to the base of knowledge." the Bible cannot be used to support an idea or theory on the end times, then why use the Bible Prophecy to explain what is happening or going to happen in the End Times.

For me, Keith, it is the most reliable source of information about the End Times that we have when our interpretation of its original words matches the message originally encoded within the Bible Text itself.

From communication theory, when the reader comes to the same understanding of the text as was intended by the originator of that text, then we have good communication. However, when the reader does not come to the same understanding as the originator of the encoded message, then all that we have is miss information and we flounder about because the tide of information has not come in to help us and we become/are helpless in our struggles.

Shalom


For record keeping purposes.
An example of how a person intentionally misquotes a source, substituting their own conclusions, to demonstrate a source supports what they want that source to support.

Notice how the author attributes his conclusions to the source by placing those conclusions inside the quotation marks as if the source actually said them, and at the beginning of the misquote, literally saying the source actually said what he substituted. This is the manner in which the author arrives at the conclusion a source, including the bible, says the things he wants the source to say. Note, the manner in which the author does this indicates he actually believes the substituted misquote is a true representation of the original quote; this is evidenced by his subsequent refutation of the misquote.

Readers, Please Take Notice:
The conclusion the bible cannot be validated, proven or dis-proven, is incorrect.
Prophecy fulfillment is the test and verifiable evidence the bible is true and adds to the base of knowledge.
We have been tying prophecy to the historic evidence of its fulfillment within this thread,
Thus have we been validating the bible in the process.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:07 pm

Now your fine words above is your attempt to discredit what I write as being irrelevant to the topic, but I wonder if you have also shoot yourself in the foot, so to speak, and also discredited what you have written in this thread.

It is said that we cannot prove the existence of God by observations such as you have done with respect to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD but that we must accept by faith His words to us. God in Isaiah 24:21-22, Revelation 19:20 and Revelation 20:10 speaks of the wicked heavenly hosts, Satan, the four Beasts of Daniel 7 plus the Little Horn mentioned in Daniel 7 and 8 and in Revelations 13 being punished by being thrown into the Lake of fire towards the very end of the Millennium Age. These Biblical Verses we accept by faith and that they will begin to unfold in our near future, because that is what God's Word tells us.

However, the problem righteous saints have, is the multitudes of interpretations and half interpretation that prevail such that we must tread very carefully through the mire of the multitude of false interpretation that have been recorded and written about.

So much confusion abounds that many Saints chose to leave the topic of the End Times alone as it does not add to their understanding of what they should be doing during this present time. That is evident by the fall off of people posting their thoughts on the End Times on forums like this.

What has happened, by my observation, is that people have started to "blog" their understanding of the End Times and that they remove unfavourable comments from their blog that calls into question their perspective of the End Times.

Keith, your response to my post to you, that Daniel 7:25 can be considered to be speaking of a three and a half year period while Daniel 12:7 can be considered to be speaking of a period of time that is three and a half ages long, i.e. around 3,500 years, was that you spoke of the need of a "scientific theory's" to be "based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." However, I was not speaking about a "scientific theory" but about what was recorded in the Book of Daniel and my interpretation of the "time, times and a half" phrase/expression in both verses.

Your response was not to debate about what I had written, but was intended to be a putdown of the person.

I responded with comment on what you had written to debate the validity of it with respect to Biblical discussion.

Your next response was to compare yourself with Gideon from the Book of Judges and to state that you "prefer to have things verified before" you "build or act upon them."

To this post I again responded by commenting on what you had said by way of questioning whether or not you accepted what was written in the bible without the need for proof.

Keith I could keep going, showing that you have been using a false argument technique as your means of discrediting what I have posted without adding any constructive discussion on the actual content of what has been written.

Keith you suggested that I should consider becoming a novelist and if I did I would be using your posted responses verbatim in that novel as an example of how people with very different understandings of the Bible are shut down and not allowed to post contrary views to the tradition of "acceptable" understanding, no matter what the meaning of "acceptable" may be.

Thank you for your material.

Shalom.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:37 pm

Jay,

I. I am not discrediting you.
I am pointing out how you discredit yourself. It is not my fault you make false, unsupportable claims.

II. The bible says there is so much evidence people are without even an excuse.
Jay said ...
It is said that we cannot prove the existence of God by observations such as you have done with respect to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD but that we must accept by faith His words to us.

The bible says ...
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

III. You are free to post whatever you like so long as you abide by the board rules.
Keith you suggested that I should consider becoming a novelist and if I did I would be using your posted responses verbatim in that novel as an example of how people with very different understandings of the Bible are shut down and not allowed to post contrary views to the tradition of "acceptable" understanding, no matter what the meaning of "acceptable" may be.

You claim you are: "shutdown and not allowed to post contrary views"
Have I deleted any of your posts? No
Have I disabled your login to prevent you from posting? No
I have not shut you down; I have refused to debate your conjectures; I prefer theory.
You do not have the right to demand I debate or even consider your ideas.
Furthermore, not a single person who posts here is exempt from criticism.
And, what I have criticized is your reasoning, not your conjectures.

Conclusion
Yes, I am hard on you and your poor reasoning.
I am hard on you and your reasoning in hopes you will tighten up your reasoning and contribute to the base of knowledge instead of obfuscating it with conjecture.

Keith
Edited for clarity 3.19.17
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:22 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:27 pm

Keith, my wife tells me that I should desist with you because you are not understanding what is being written in my posts.

You are still very much playing the person and inserting words into my mouth which I have not stated, based upon your own conjecture, assumptions and interpretation of what I have posted. I said that your posts were an example of how people with very different understandings of the scriptures are shut down from posting. However, I did not indicate how that was achieved by your responses to my posts. Your logic in stating that I made false unsupportable claims is flawed.

As such, I will leave you to your own devices.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:59 pm

Mr Baldy, Shorttrib, David,

I am sorry for the distraction.

David,

Keith wrote ...
My perspective is this. The 70th week has ended. Therefore, goals must have been accomplished.
This necessarily forces a meaning on the objectives that do not have a future completion date.
Without an agreed upon definition discussion is difficult.

David responded ...
Scripture does define these for us, the Book of Hebrews in particular, and within other concepts taught by Paul. Shall we start or restart a thread on this ?


Yes, David, I would like that very much. A new thread I think.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Ready1 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:53 am

Sorry, Shortribber, I have not been a participant in this conversation. We spent 16 days in Israel since my last post, and this thread is pretty long. I will try to get back to you at some point, but wanted you to know that I was not deliberately ignoring you. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:41 pm

Ready1 wrote:Sorry, Shortribber, I have not been a participant in this conversation. We spent 16 days in Israel since my last post, and this thread is pretty long. I will try to get back to you at some point, but wanted you to know that I was not deliberately ignoring you. :grin:

I knew you weren't ignoring me, and that there was a good reason for the delay, and I was just waiting. Hope you're able to make it though the thread without :faint: ing
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:30 am

To all those who were following this Thread, here is a very Excellent explanation of the 70 weeks:


http://www.daniels70weeks.com/


I have personally found this commentary very biblically sound!
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:21 am

Mr Baldy, just a glance at the website you posted will reflect many of the beliefs and focus of the Seventh Day Adventists, especially the emphasis on the Saturday Sabbath. I've not done an in-depth study on their beliefs, but we should at least be aware that the trajectory of their articles will be on the path based on their foundational beliefs.

I can offer an alternative if anyone wishes with a number of end-time articles that are written by "bona-fide" :mrgreen: Evangelical/Protestant believers whose doctrines are in alignment with ours. Here is a list of their End-Time Eschatology articles.

There will likely still be some differences of perspectives in interpretations, but at least the articles are based on the same biblical foundations we have in common. fwiw....
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:50 am

Slightly off topic...but of interest about the link I posted above. The Foundation where the articles are listed is called the "Van Kampen Collection" and Robert Van Kampen was it's Founder. The collection contains rare book collections, artifacts and ancient manuscripts. I have visited the "Holy Land Experience" in Orlando, Fl. where they are housed and found the experience a memorable experience. If you're ever in the Orlando area, you will be amazed at the replica of the Temple and other presentations that leave you feeling you have indeed visited the Holy Land.

Van Kampen's daughter was a member here on the board years ago.

Sorry for the detour...I couldn't resist.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:45 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I have a minor disagreement with article.
The article includes the one week in Daniel 9:27 as part of the 70 weeks.
I disagree with this because the sacrifices were not stopped until 70AD.
While Christ stopped the need for the sacrifices at the crucifixion/resurrection,
the sacrifices did not actually cease until 70AD.

A prophecy is only true if events happen according to the prophecy.
Substituting stopping the need for sacrifices is not the same as actually stopping the sacrifices, as prophesied.
Consequently, they missed the prophecy of the First Roman Jewish War,
Which lasted the one week of Daniel 9:27 and stopped those sacrifices in the middle of that week.

Keith
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby WOODHENOT3 on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:39 pm

Consequently, they missed the prophecy of the First Roman Jewish War,
Which lasted the one week of Daniel 9:27 and stopped those sacrifices in the middle of that week.


I noticed that also....
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:44 pm

:snack:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:15 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Mr Baldy, just a glance at the website you posted will reflect many of the beliefs and focus of the Seventh Day Adventists, especially the emphasis on the Saturday Sabbath.


Hi Abiding,

Thank you for pointing this out.

The intention of why I posted the 70th week commentary, is because I think it provided an Excellent explanation of the 70th week. Nothing more. My comments were posted as follow:

Mr Baldy wrote:To all those who were following this Thread, here is a very Excellent explanation of the 70 weeks:


and:

Mr Baldy wrote:I have personally found this commentary very biblically sound!


This was specifically about the explanation of the 70th week and not the entire website.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:21 pm

Here's a question we should all focus on.

Which prophetic book is clearer, more detailed and closer to the Last Days? The book of Daniel or the book of Revelation?
Yet both books are referring to the same thing - the time of the end. So why the confusion?

Does Revelation talk about thousands of years or does Revelation talk about 42 months, 1260, 1290 days as literal days? This is how we can know what the "time, times and half a time" means in Daniel 12:7. Revelation clears up the doubt - we are not talking about centuries and thousands of years, Revelation is talking about 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days, 1290 literal days. So that's what Daniel was talking about also. The 1335 days is not thousands of years, it is literal days, because Revelation is talking about literal days. The 2300 days is not years, its literal days, because Revelation is talking in literal days, short time periods, regarding the Last Days.

Look at Daniel 12: 10-12

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.



How can a man be blessed if he waiteth and come to the 1335 days if they are years? Its impossible for a man to be patient and wait for 1335 years to pass, but it IS possible for a man to be patient and endure and wait for 1335 days to pass. These are literal days.

The evidence is overwhelmingly supporting a literal days interpretation - how this thousands of years stuff ever got off the ground I don't know. I guess its because of the days in the 70 weeks being years. Ok - well if we were to be consistent then we should expect the angel to say the 1335 days are 190 weeks OR the 2300 days are 328 weeks. Does the angel do this? NO. This confusion needs to end - look at the evidence, its clear we're talking about short time periods when we are talking about the Last Days. This "thousands of years" stuff you guys are all getting fascinated with is nothing but riddles of distraction imho, delving too deep into scripture, looking for stuff that isn't there.

In my opinion the sooner you realise this, the sooner the confusion will disappear and everything will make sense.

.
Last edited by brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:48 pm

keithareilly wrote:I have a minor disagreement with article. The article includes the one week in Daniel 9:27 as part of the 70 weeks. I disagree with this because the sacrifices were not stopped until 70AD.While Christ stopped the need for the sacrifices at the crucifixion/resurrection, the sacrifices did not actually cease until 70AD. A prophecy is only true if events happen according to the prophecy. Substituting stopping the need for sacrifices is not the same as actually stopping the sacrifices, as prophesied. Consequently, they missed the prophecy of the First Roman Jewish War, Which lasted the one week of Daniel 9:27 and stopped those sacrifices in the middle of that week.


Hi Keith,

Again, I believe that the Article is an EXCELLENT commentary. I'm very glad you pointed out that Christ stopped the NEED for the sacrifices - as I wholeheartedly believe that this is the POINT.

I saw no where in the commentary, where it was mentioned that Christ was not crucified in the 70th week.

Therefore I see the need as not being a "substitute" for stopping, as Christ's Death and subsequent Resurrection absolutely cannot be replaced or substituted. It is an everlasting sacrifice - and permanently and totally deleted the requirement for sacrifices; whether it continued or not. Just because sacrifices continued does not negate the purpose. To say that the need to no longer make sacrifice through the Death and ultimate Resurrection of Christ, is a "substitute" would be to imply that it was the First Roman Jewish War that stopped those sacrifices.
I don't agree with that at all.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:36 pm

Mr Baldy,

I appreciate your view. But, I'll stand by mine as it was the events during 70AD, the First Jewish Roman War, that actually put an end to the sacrifices thus fulfilling this prophecy.

The above stated position is not in conflict with the following stated position which is also true.

The owner of the vineyard, God, sent the earthly Roman empire prince, Titus, and his army, to destroy the tenants and put an end to the sacrifices, which occurred in 70AD, the middle of the First Roman Jewish War, the "one week", as prophesied in Daniel 9:26-27; because in part, there no longer exists any need for those sacrifices as the owner's son, Christ, a heavenly Prince, made the final, permanent, sacrifice, once, for all men, during the 70th week as prophesied by Daniel 9:26 where Messiah was cut off, not during the the 7 and 62 weeks, but after, in the subsequent week, the only remaining week of the 70 weeks.


Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:55 pm

I'm going to post this again, no one seems to be noticing......

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

This scripture doesn't make sense unless its literal days. A man cannot wait and come (make it) to the end of 1335 years !!!! Let's get real guys......this one scripture throws a spanner in the works regarding the days being years.....its like you guys are in a bubble.....someone needs to pop this bubble :grin: Last call for some reality to return. I'll be off now.....

.
Last edited by brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:00 pm

brett wrote:I'm going to post this again, no one seems to be noticing......

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

This scripture doesn't make sense unless its literal days. Let's get real guys......this one scripture throws a spanner in the works regarding the days being years.....its like you guys are in a bubble.....someone needs to pop this bubble :grin:

.



Correct, those who are blessed are those who survived the First Jewish Roman War by waiting for the war to finish which was about 3 1/2 years after the 70AD event.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:04 pm

keithareilly wrote:
brett wrote:I'm going to post this again, no one seems to be noticing......

Daniel 12:12
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

This scripture doesn't make sense unless its literal days. Let's get real guys......this one scripture throws a spanner in the works regarding the days being years.....its like you guys are in a bubble.....someone needs to pop this bubble :grin:

.



Correct, those who are blessed are those who survived the First Jewish Roman War by waiting for the war to finish which was three and one half years after the 70AD event.


Where do you get this weird stuff from? Seriously ...... The biggest moment in history is the RETURN OF JESUS CHRIST - why would the angel give a stuff about 70AD when the HUGEST EVENT OF ALL HISTORY CENTRES AROUND JESUS CHRIST'S RETURNING IN THE CLOUDS - SUN MOON DARKENED - that's BIG STUFF - our deliverance from the ANTI-CHRIST - the DAY OF THE LORD TO BEGIN - this is the big thing happening - that's what God is interested in talking about.....Get real guys.....

As if an Angel would be sent to Daniel to give such important info about 70AD - the big thing is around the END TIMES - The time of UNEQUALLED DISTRESS - the GREAT TRIBULATION.....the return of the SON OF MAN .... this is what's important -not 70 AD.

The 3.5 years MATCHES what Revelation says - that's the big hint !

.
Last edited by brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:21 pm

Brett,

I get this weird stuff from ... historical records.

And, since Christ has not returned yet, The biggest moment in history was actually ... His Visitation.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby brett on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:24 pm

Yeah - I just let out 1335 years worth of frustration :grin:

The 3.5 years MATCHES what Revelation says - that's the big hint we are given - yet you are missing seeing the connection to Revelation !

Anyway I got that off my chest, I hope someone gets it......I'll be off now, I'll be back later. Let you guys digest it, I hope you guys do think about it. Don't want my involvement to be a total waste of time.

.
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The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:28 pm

:grin:
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:30 pm

keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,I appreciate your view. But, I'll stand by mine as it was the events during 70AD, the First Jewish Roman War, that actually put an end to the sacrifices thus fulfilling this prophecy.


I appreciate your view as well Keith. However, the whole purpose of the 70 weeks was to point to Christ.

It is Christ who is "HE" that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27, and not the First Jewish Roman War.

Nevertheless, it was your information that prompted me to look deeper into the theories set forth in the 70th week that led me to discover, that no matter how one may view it - the 70th week is completely OVER. Again, as I have mentioned before, the 1290 days and the 1335 days never made sense to me by the time that was established for the 70 weeks. We have those, to include myself (at one point) who are/were guilty of "spiritualizing" or adding "sensationalistic" ideas to this Prophecy in order to discover the meaning of what those extra days actually meant.

In closing, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a final 3.5 year period remains - as Scripture supports this. I do not believe that it relates to the 70th week, as I would be guilty of "sensationalizing" or "spiritualizing" what has been written in Scripture by putting the very popular "GAP" theory into place - which lasts an unknown nonsensical time period, and further makes no absolute sense at all.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby brett on Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:58 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Mr Baldy,I appreciate your view. But, I'll stand by mine as it was the events during 70AD, the First Jewish Roman War, that actually put an end to the sacrifices thus fulfilling this prophecy.


I appreciate your view as well Keith. However, the whole purpose of the 70 weeks was to point to Christ.

It is Christ who is "HE" that is mentioned in Daniel 9:27, and not the First Jewish Roman War.

Nevertheless, it was your information that prompted me to look deeper into the theories set forth in the 70th week that led me to discover, that no matter how one may view it - the 70th week is completely OVER. Again, as I have mentioned before, the 1290 days and the 1335 days never made sense to me by the time that was established for the 70 weeks. We have those, to include myself (at one point) who are/were guilty of "spiritualizing" or adding "sensationalistic" ideas to this Prophecy in order to discover the meaning of what those extra days actually meant.

In closing, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a final 3.5 year period remains - as Scripture supports this. I do not believe that it relates to the 70th week, as I would be guilty of "sensationalizing" or "spiritualizing" what has been written in Scripture by putting the very popular "GAP" theory into place - which lasts an unknown nonsensical time period, and further makes no absolute sense at all.



I Disagree with you Mr Badly - I consider Daniels 70th Week to be REAL and in the FUTURE - this is not foolishness - it is not sensational and it is not nonsense. This is what I believe scripture supports.

I just want you to know that I have a strong belief and expectation of a future 70th Week of Daniel coming soon. I don't know if anything I say would be able to help you - I would like to help. I just want you to know that I do strongly believe in Daniels 70th week coming in the future...........its a fundamental and core belief imho.

I will leave you with this:

There is a MYSTERY in God's dealing with Israel and this UNKNOWN time GAP. These scriptures talk about this mystery:

Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What is this mystery?

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The purpose of the unknown GAP is to bring in the fullness of the Gentiles........to bring the Kingdom of Heaven to the Gentiles.

.
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Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:53 am

Mr Baldy wrote:In closing, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that a final 3.5 year period remains - as Scripture supports this. I do not believe that it relates to the 70th week, as I would be guilty of "sensationalizing" or "spiritualizing" what has been written in Scripture by putting the very popular "GAP" theory into place - which lasts an unknown nonsensical time period, and further makes no absolute sense at all.


Mr B, the purported gap theory is actually not a spiritualization after all. Consider the following ...

Hos 6:1 ¶ Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.


The following can be spiritualized to a degree, but there is no doubt the Lord's chosen people are in the Land of Israel. I believe this to be an ongoing Prophecy, yet to be fulfilled in totality.

Eze 37:11
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


That of course is the famous Dry Bones Prophecy, which is believed by almost everyone to be related to the following Prophecy...

Isa 66:5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.
Isa 66:6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
Isa 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
Isa 66:9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Isa 66:10
Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: Isa 66:11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.


And this is believed to be the Prophecy about the rebirth of the Nation of Israel. One can debate and present a position, but to call something nonsensical without having explored all the Scriptures and options they present is ... Well, there is almost always more to the Word of God than we think we know. I'm still trying to figure things out myself, and count myself as one who needs to continue to explore.

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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