Who is HE?

(heavily moderated)

Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:04 am

I want to pose a question to those who love Prophecy and desire to know the Truth.

Who is the "he" mentioned in Daniel 9:27?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:22 am

Who Confirms the Covenant?
We shall now turn our attention to the covenant mentioned in Dan. 9:27 which reads as follows: "And He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week." Most premillennialists and all dispensationalists introduce the anti-christ into the prophecy at this point and contend that it is he who will make a covenant with the Jews in Jerusalem during the 70th week in the future. The anti-christ is portrayed as a "prince, a king, as God and as Lucifer, as a beast and as a man." See Blackstone's Jesus is Coming, pp. 108, 109. The only place in the Bible where the anti-christ is mentioned is 1st and 2nd John. These books were written 600 years after Daniel. There is no mention of the anti-christ in Daniel at all; nor for that matter in the entire Old Testament. It seems inconsistent, therefore, to relate the pronoun "he" of Daniel 9:27 to the anti-christ who is first introduced 600 years later.

http://www.historicist.com/daniel/confi ... e-covenant
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8878
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jericho on Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:58 am

The only place in the Bible where the anti-christ is mentioned is 1st and 2nd John. These books were written 600 years after Daniel. There is no mention of the anti-christ in Daniel at all; nor for that matter in the entire Old Testament. It seems inconsistent, therefore, to relate the pronoun "he" of Daniel 9:27 to the anti-christ who is first introduced 600 years later.


In Isaiah 53 nowhere does it mention Jesus at all, therefore, by his logic, we should not relate the pronoun of "he" in Isaiah 53 to Jesus. But we know that's not true. The thing is, is that God doesn't reveal everything all at once. No one in the Old Testament saw the church, for example, and the gentiles being grafted in. Or the Messiah being born a man, dying, and resurrected. There were hints, of course, but it was concealed. We see through a glass darkly as Paul said. We understand these things now only because we have hindsight. Certain things even the apostles didn't understand until they happened. Even Daniel didn't understand everything he saw. Point being is that the further we go along the more we understand, and the more things are revealed to us. Prophecy is like pieces of a puzzle, we don't always see the big picture until we have more pieces.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4440
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:18 am

Jericho wrote:
The only place in the Bible where the anti-christ is mentioned is 1st and 2nd John. These books were written 600 years after Daniel. There is no mention of the anti-christ in Daniel at all; nor for that matter in the entire Old Testament. It seems inconsistent, therefore, to relate the pronoun "he" of Daniel 9:27 to the anti-christ who is first introduced 600 years later.


In Isaiah 53 nowhere does it mention Jesus at all, therefore, by his logic, we should not relate the pronoun of "he" in Isaiah 53 to Jesus. But we know that's not true. The thing is, is that God doesn't reveal everything all at once. No one in the Old Testament saw the church, for example, and the gentiles being grafted in. Or the Messiah being born a man, dying, and resurrected. There were hints, of course, but it was concealed. We see through a glass darkly as Paul said. We understand these things now only because we have hindsight. Certain things even the apostles didn't understand until they happened. Even Daniel didn't understand everything he saw. Point being is that the further we go along the more we understand, and the more things are revealed to us. Prophecy is like pieces of a puzzle, we don't always see the big picture until we have more pieces.

Good post Jericho, and true also about the Non-mention of Certain Words or Titles among the scriptures. That's the case in debate, we jump on a Part (as the historicist did) of a presentation as though One Part of it negates the whole.
That is why I am Half Historicist and half Futurist, because there are flaws within both of Those Whole or Complete Views themselves.


Mr. B.,
Glad you started this new thread, but I will need to post later today...back to the shop.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 22, 2017 1:12 pm

Mr B., the truth of the matter is that we must establish whether or not there are five independent prophecies contained in the four verses of Daniel 9:24-27 or whether or not these five prophecies are co dependent on each other.

My view is that the five prophecies are independent of each other from a time stamp perspective and the number of weeks of years mentioned do not impacted on each other.

The way in which Daniel 9:24 is presently translated would suggest that what is prophesied to happen in this verse must all be fulfilled within the 490 years. However, I would suggest that it could be understood that Daniel's people must stop their transgressions and sins in Jerusalem within the mentioned 490 years, and that God is telling Daniel that after that time, after the 490 years have pasted, that he will set about to (1.) make reconciliation for sin, (2.) establish everlasting righteousness, (3.) will seal both the vision and the prophet and (4.) will anoint a most holly place.

There is a big difference between the traditional understanding and what I am suggesting. The starting point for Daniel 9:24 was around the year 494 BC, based on when the visitation of their iniquities would begin,where as the starting point for Daniel 9:25 was possibly some 10-20 years later.

If this is the case, then the crucifixion of Christ as foretold in Daniel 9:26a, occurred well outside of the 490 years of the Daniel 9:24 prophecy which people use to justify their claim that the crucifixion of Christ must occur within the 490 years.

The recorded history in the Old Testament should confirm this.

If we are going to consider Daniel 9:26b then we have to look at the prophecy in Daniel 8 and consider the prince, the little horn who is given an army to go up against Jerusalem. But that is probably for another post.

First perhaps we should focus on the time difference between the prophecies in Daniel 9 24 and Daniel 9:25 first and resolve the length of this time.

Shalom
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:16 pm

Exit40 wrote:There is no mention of the anti-christ in Daniel at all; nor for that matter in the entire Old Testament. It seems inconsistent, therefore, to relate the pronoun "he" of Daniel 9:27 to the anti-christ who is first introduced 600 years later.


Hi David,

I find it very interesting that you have posted a "quote" from the "Historicist". The aforementioned quote is a snippet from the later part of what you posted. But, before I comment on this I want to first address something you posted on the "Covenant with Many" thread, and the subsequent questions that I had thereafter:

Exit40 wrote:

Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and
Christ being the desolator.


And this:

Exit40 wrote:

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolator."


My Question to you was this:

Mr Baldy wrote:

David, please help me to understand this......as I completely missed this when it was previously posted.
Are you saying that Christ is the Desolator

If so, then you would also be saying that He is the One who causes the Abomination as well!


David - "IF" you are saying that Christ is the Desolator - then we could have a potential HUGE Theological Problem here. This definitely requires an explanation.


Now, to comment on the information you have provided in the "Historicist" - well I disagree concerning the Antichrist not being mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Daniel 9:27 very CLEARLY mentions the AOD - there is absolutely no doubt about this. So the question becomes: "Who is responsible for committing the AOD"? Then we must look at what Jesus Himself mentioned in Matthew 24:15:

Matthew 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)


So then the question becomes: Who was Jesus referring to? Certainly he could NOT be referring to Himself........
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The way in which Daniel 9:24 is presently translated would suggest that what is prophesied to happen in this verse must all be fulfilled within the 490 years. However, I would suggest that it could be understood that Daniel's people must stop their transgressions and sins in Jerusalem within the mentioned 490 years, and that God is telling Daniel that after that time, after the 490 years have pasted, that he will set about to (1.) make reconciliation for sin, (2.) establish everlasting righteousness, (3.) will seal both the vision and the prophet and (4.) will anoint a most holly place.


Hi Jay Ross,

I agree with almost everything you have mentioned here. There were 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24. I feel that there are only 3 that remain - they are as follows:

1) To finish the Transgression - (Death; Sin; and Rebellion will continue into the Millennial Kingdom)
2) To make an end of sins - (This won't happen until the Eternal State - Christ must Reign until He conquers DEATH)
3) To bring in Everlasting Righteousness - (Again, this won't happen until the Eternal State)

Jay Ross wrote:If we are going to consider Daniel 9:26b then we have to look at the prophecy in Daniel 8 and consider the prince, the little horn who is given an army to go up against Jerusalem.


Daniel 9:26b ABSOLUTELY must be considered! Information from Daniel 8 is absolutely welcomed, and recommended, as it could provide necessary evidence to discover who "he" actually is.

Jay Ross wrote:First perhaps we should focus on the time difference between the prophecies in Daniel 9 24 and Daniel 9:25 first and resolve the length of this time.


Bring whatever you have Jay - after all it is up for "debate" but in an edifying way :mrgreen:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Ready1 on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:23 pm

I like the NLT and it's plain-spokenness.

Dan 9:26 "After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

The clarity of the passage speaks for itself. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:52 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

Bring whatever you have Jay - after all it is up for "debate" but in an edifying way :mrgreen:


Was this necessary from you? Is it edifying? :mrgreen:

With your comment have you already set the tone for conflict?

It is certainly not my intent. :angel:
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:12 am

Ready1 wrote:I like the NLT and it's plain-spokenness.

Dan 9:26 "After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

The clarity of the passage speaks for itself. :grin:


Hi Ready1,

You will have those who will disagree with the NLT - as you will soon see. Hence the debate :grin:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:22 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Mr Baldy wrote:<snip>

Bring whatever you have Jay - after all it is up for "debate" but in an edifying way :mrgreen:


Was this necessary from you? Is it edifying? :mrgreen:

With your comment have you already set the tone for conflict?

It is certainly not my intent. :angel:


Hi Jay Ross,

I believe you have misunderstood what I wrote. Debates can be peaceful, and certainly edifying when the Truth is discovered.

Please forgive me if I came across the wrong way. It was not my intent.

I for one certainly desire to see your perspective. Although I have not agreed with some of the things you have mentioned, your comments have certainly led me back to Scripture to at least take a hard look at what you have written. Let me add that some of the things you have penned have been "spot on", so please bring whatever you have.

I Thank You! :grin:
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:15 am

Mr Baldy wrote:David - "IF" you are saying that Christ is the Desolator - then we could have a potential HUGE Theological Problem here. This definitely requires an explanation.


Yes Mr B, huge theological problem. Why ? Because this is the part of the Shorttrib theology that gets everyone into trouble with their own end times timeline.

Now, to comment on the information you have provided in the "Historicist" - well I disagree concerning the Antichrist not being mentioned in the Book of Daniel. Daniel 9:27 very CLEARLY mentions the AOD - there is absolutely no doubt about this. So the question becomes: "Who is responsible for committing the AOD"? Then we must look at what Jesus Himself mentioned in Matthew 24:15:

Matthew 24:15 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)


So then the question becomes: Who was Jesus referring to? Certainly he could NOT be referring to Himself........


Of course not and to suggest He does is ludicrous. What Christian in his right mind would ever think to suggest this ? He, Christ , is foretelling events over a period of time, He is not stating an antichrist is in there at all. That is reading into Scripture ones own timeline, and all the popular ones require an antichrist and one full week remaining. Didn't you start to believe there is no antichrist, rather only a false prophet ? Start to think along those lines here and possibly you will see this. Here are the Scriptures...

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Luk 13:34 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


All of this simplified ... Christ confirms the Covenant for one week, starting with His Anointing at His baptism as the Promised Seed of the Covenant, the one who can bring Grace to the Covenant for many, because until then it was God's Mercy that kept them from the death the Law required. At the mid point of the week He is crucified as the Lamb of God, just as Prophesied to fulfill the Mosaic Law portion of the Covenant, and also fulfilling the Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant as the Seed through which many nations will be Blessed. How could Salvation come about for us of the 'many nations' without our Father's Great Grace being hidden in the Prophecy ? And by His own sacrifice He causes the need for sacrifices to cease. That doesn't mean they stop right there, it means He causes them to cease, period, no need for them any longer as the requirement for them has been fulfilled by Himself.

Jesus Himself in the above Scriptures states their house is left desolate, fulfilling Mosaic Law also, for their transgressions. Because they have done so horribly throughout time these desolation's are coming to them, and the City, and the Temple Mount. Their refusal to submit to Christ violated the Covenant of the Law, so punishment is meted out in accordance, and for a specific time period. In this case as the 70 years in Babylon have been fulfilled, the time period is around two thousand years. At this point one must think, it is written somewhere in the Law how long this time period is. I have found a number of references but cannot nail this down to an accurate number. Why ? It's still hidden in the Scriptures until the time approaches for us to know. Then ... WE ... will ... know.

Nowhere in vs 27 does it say Christ, HE, commits an abomination, period. Rather He has left the Temple Mount and City desolate to them because of disobedience and the result is allowing the overspreading of abominations there, on the Temple mount, and in the City also. All the way to the end of the punishment time period. But, there is still one half of the final week to go through. This is signified by the AoD beginning the remaining half of the week, the 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days. The end of this is when Israel calls on the Lord Jesus as their Messiah/Christ at His coming.

Mr B, everyone, every single one of us, who holds onto a full remaining 70th week is in error, and they cannot see the Truth in what I just wrote as they cannot unsee what they think they see. I was like that too, blind to this Truth. We hold onto so much in a timeline we believe in, too much to overcome and throw out, stubborn and stiff necked, some kind of rapture belief no doubt, who is the antichrist we think we know, is gog/magog Armageddon, etc. Now, I have asked some simple questions in the other thread that remain unanswered. They require only simple answers, which cannot be provided if there is a belief in a full remaining week.

So, I hope this helps you out of your dilemma. It really helped me deal with mine, some time ago.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8878
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:06 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Ready1,You will have those who will disagree with the NLT - as you will soon see. Hence the debate

:clap:
Ready1 wrote:I like the NLT and it's plain-spokenness.

Dan 9:26 "After this period of sixty-two sets of seven, the Anointed One will be killed, appearing to have accomplished nothing, and a ruler will arise whose armies will destroy the city and the Temple. The end will come with a flood, and war and its miseries are decreed from that time to the very end.
Dan 9:27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."

The clarity of the passage speaks for itself. :grin:

Simply put, an Accurate Translation should not be an Exposition.

The example you've chosen is an Exposition of what the Supposed "Translators" Supposed.

It's not even Close to what was in the Original Hebrew Text.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:51 pm

To be able to demonstrate how the time spans of Daniel 9:24-27, we have to be able to determine the length of an age/time. From my research, it is my belief that Isaac, the confirmation of the Abrahamic Covenant, was born at the very beginning of the third Age/time of mankind, in the year 2049 after the creation of Adam. The Tradition of the chronologists of the Old Testament usually place Isaac's birth in the year 2048 AA, however, in their calculation they consider that "When Shem had lived 100 years his son, Arachshad, was born, 2 years after the flood."(Genesis 11:10), the two years after the flood has to be measured from the start of the flood whereas the quoted verse clearly set it out that the two years should be measured from the end of the flood which had a duration of one year.

From this we can determine that the length of an age/time{/'generation' H:1755} has a duration of 1,024 {solar} years.
Reference: - The Chronology of the Book of Genesis

This is again confirmed, within the limits of storytelling accuracy, that King David was born at the beginning of the fourth age/time of mankind and if we continue this logic to when Christ was born, Christ was born at the beginning of the fifth age/time. Many believe that this was in the year 4 BCE.
Source: Unpublished research that I have undertaken.

Now if we consider Exodus 20:4-6 we know the following concerning the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers, {i.e. for the first two ages/times of the existence of the Israelite people } will be visited on their children in the third age of the Israelite's existence and on their children's children in the fourth age/time of the existence of the Israelite's existence.

Exodus 20:4-6: - "You shall not make for yourself a carved image — any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations* of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.


* Note: - The word "Generation," i.e. Descendent generation has been assumed to be implied in Strong's Hebrew Root definitions for H:8029 and H:7526. Now, these two Hebrew words are only found in Exodus 20:4-5, 34:7, Numbers 14:18 and Deuteronomy 5:9. However, the Jewish scholars over the years since the time of Moses have also assumed that the "third and the fourth" is a reference to descendant generations..

It is my belief that the "third and the fourth" is a reference to the third and the fourth "ages/times." This is confirmed in a number of Old Testament Prophecies like Isaiah 61:4 which is Traditionally translated as: -

Isaiah 61:4: -

And they shall rebuild the old ruins,
They shall raise up the former desolations,
And they shall repair the ruined cities,
The desolations of many generations.


Because the Jewish and Christians scholars could not perceive the actual length of the desolation, they chose to translate " דּ֥וֹר dō•wr (H:1755) וָדֽוֹר׃ wā•ḏō•wr (H:1755), as "many generation" however because we have the advantage of around 2,000 years of history of the desolation of the Israelite nation, we can understand that the meaning of H:1755 as an "age" i.e. 1,024 solar years, is a far better way of translating "dō•wr wā•ḏō•wr" as "an age and an age" i.e. "of two ages."
Source
Interlinear of Isaiah 61:4
Definition of H:1755: - Particularly read Browns-Driver-Briggs definition

Keeping in mind that "the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth {age}" is more in keeping from what we now know from the passing of time in the unfolding history of the Israelite people.

We also know that the time of the Gentile heathens trampling the Sanctuary has not yet ended and the decreed end is when God will judge the rebelling Kings of the earth at Armageddon which we know is still in our near future around 30 years from the present time.

With this in mind when we consider Daniel 9:24 we read the following: -

Daniel 9:24: -
"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,


To do what?

To finish the transgression, (1)
To make an end of sins, (2)


Then after the 490 solar years have been completed because the Israelite nation did not stop their transgression to end their sin, God will have implemented through His Grace for all nations, including Israel, the following: -

To make reconciliation for iniquity, (3)
To bring in everlasting righteousness, (4)
To seal up vision and prophecy, (5)
And to anoint the Most Holy. (6)


The 490 years that God allowed the Daniel's People and for Jerusalem end at the beginning of the fifth Age, which began with the Birth of Christ in 4 BCE. All of this prophecy was not fulfilled in the 490 years that God had graciously allowed with a warning for Israel to repent of their iniquities.

If we now look at Daniel 9:25, the end of the 483 solar years can be established from history and the Bible. Historical records suggests that King Herod began rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem around the year 20 BCE and from John 2:20 where the following was recorded: -

John 2:20: - Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"


This recorded interaction with the Jewish population in the Temple occurred at the beginning of Christ's ministry when he was 30 years old in the year 26 CE after he had driven the money changers etc. out of the Temple proper.

If we then consider Daniel 9:26a, we are told that after the 483 years ends and the building of the temple is completed, that the Messiah of the Israelite Nation will be cut off, i.e. killed and that He will have nothing at that time to show for it.

From Daniel 2 we know that God does not establish His Messianic Everlasting Kingdom until after the fifth segment of the Statue figure has taken control over the Land of the Chaldeans, i.e. Babylon and from Daniel 7 and Revelation 19, it is not until the beasts of Daniel 7 are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit to await their time of Judgement that Christ is given Dominion over all of the peoples of the earth, such that they should worship Him.

Perhaps this is a good point in looking at Daniel 9:24-27 to stop for the moment.

Shalom

Jay
Last edited by Jay Ross on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Ready1 on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:19 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Ready1,You will have those who will disagree with the NLT - as you will soon see. Hence the debate


I understand that very well, Mr. Baldy. I am curious how many who are perusing this thread see the "he" of Dan 9:27 as referring back to the "prince that shall come"? Take out the verse designators and there is simply a continuation of thought. To say otherwise makes no sense. After Messiah is cut off, someone must confirm a covenant...and it's the fellow that Daniel has just been talking about.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Are there any brave souls out there? :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:38 pm

Exit40 wrote: Didn't you start to believe there is no antichrist, rather only a false prophet ?


NO!!!

And for the RECORD........ I believe wholeheartedly that there is NO FALSE PROPHET!

There will absolutely be a coming Antichrist!

It will be he, and he ALONE who will be the End Time Ruler until our Lord and Savior Returns. Not a so-called sidekick identified as a "False Prophet". The coming Antichrist will be the False Prophet.

One must read Revelation 13 in conjunction with the other Books of the Bible that John wrote; as well as what the Prophet Daniel has to mention about the "little horn" in order to truly understand what I have mentioned.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:48 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps this is a good point in looking at Daniel 9:24-27 to stop for the moment.


Hi Jay Ross,

If it is not asking too much, please provide your resources that you have submitted prior to the aforementioned comment.

Please do so, to give those who are reading what you have submitted an opportunity to research your statements. Namely me, I want to double check your comments, and view Scripture.

Thanks
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
David - "IF" you are saying that Christ is the Desolator - then we could have a potential HUGE Theological Problem here. This definitely requires an explanation.


Exit40 wrote:Yes Mr B, huge theological problem. Why ? Because this is the part of the Shorttrib theology that gets everyone into trouble with their own end times timeline.


David...........with ALL due respect, this is what you wrote:

Exit40 wrote:
Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and
Christ being the desolator.


**Note: I had to edit this, because I had to reread what you wrote. I "think" I now understand what you meant - but I don't want to read into your meaning. But I am still confused as to how you can reconcile what clearly appears to be an Abomination that is being set up in verse 27.

Can you please provide an Explanation
Last edited by Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:15 pm

Ready1 wrote:I understand that very well, Mr. Baldy. I am curious how many who are perusing this thread see the "he" of Dan 9:27 as referring back to the "prince that shall come"? Take out the verse designators and there is simply a continuation of thought. To say otherwise makes no sense. After Messiah is cut off, someone must confirm a covenant...and it's the fellow that Daniel has just been talking about.


Ready1 - I AGREE!

This is why this has been so very, very tough for me - at least to discover a very essential part of this Mystery.
Both views present some very convincing arguments.

I will continue to study, and research these opposing points of view. If the "he" can be determined, without a reasonable doubt - then I sincerely think that other Mysteries of this End Time Prophecy will become more clearer as well!
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:08 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps this is a good point in looking at Daniel 9:24-27 to stop for the moment.


Hi Jay Ross,

If it is not asking too much, please provide your resources that you have submitted prior to the aforementioned comment.

Please do so, to give those who are reading what you have submitted an opportunity to research your statements. Namely me, I want to double check your comments, and view Scripture.

Thanks


A number of reference have been added, as requested, to my previous post.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:39 pm

Ready1 wrote: I am curious how many who are perusing this thread see the "he" of Dan 9:27 as referring back to the "prince that shall come"? Take out the verse designators and there is simply a continuation of thought. To say otherwise makes no sense. After Messiah is cut off, someone must confirm a covenant...and it's the fellow that Daniel has just been talking about.

Ready 1,

How is it that the reading makes no sense if it's not read in a Linear and Modern Western fashion?

Can it make sense if it is read in an Hebraic fashion? It makes perfect sense if you will allow that Hebraic Form it was Actually written in to help your perception.

Let me provide you with an example of Hebraic Repetitious Form. I will not even point to any Chiastic Conclusion, just the Repetitious Nature Of That Form.

Daniel 8
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host
, and by him
the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his
sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Now, beside the clear and Evident repetition, we also have in these words a Wonderful example of how the Common Grammatical Rule of the antecedent interpretation (nearest matching antecedent), is Not Followed ALWAYS in Hebraic Form.

I don't want to spend a great deal of time on this matter, just want you to See how a Chiastic Repetitious Hebraic Form in Daniel 9 Does "make sense", better sense than reading it without an Hebraic Form in mind.

Now Ready 1....this example is in Chapter 8, the next chapter is of course chapter 9, and the Same Repetitious Form is Clearly Evident.
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 23, 2017 10:47 pm

Trying to get back to the matter we were discussing before Mr.B.....

I will try to focus on what you said here...

"I don't believe that anyone could possibly think that the Crucifixion of Christ occurred outside of the 70 weeks. In your theory - (which by the way I have not ruled out) you run Christ's Ministry and subsequent Crucifixion into the 70th week leaving 3.5 years remaining to be fulfilled. I don't think Scripture is recorded that way; in that is says AFTER the 62 weeks + 7 weeks Messiah will be "cut off" or Crucified. This could very well mean that AFTER the 69th week begins, or a few days AFTER it has started but prior to the 70th week - He will be "cut off." "

Regarding the first part I colored blue, that's what is Believed by ALL Futurists (Those who hold an Entirely Future 7 Year trib or Entirely Future 70th Week as Still Entirely Future). In other words, They Believe that Christ Was Crucified, Not IN the 69th OR the 70th Week! They Believe that Christ was crucified DURING the Gap!
As shorttribbers, we believe that Christ WAS Crucified IN the 70th Week, And Not IN The Gap.

To your second point that I colored red, I will comment on tomorrow.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:10 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
**Note: I had to edit this, because I had to reread what you wrote. I "think" I now understand what you meant - but I don't want to read into your meaning. But I am still confused as to how you can reconcile what clearly appears to be an Abomination that is being set up in verse 27.

Can you please provide an Explanation


Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Mr B, you continue to see the 'He' as the antichrist setting up the AoD, that is why you are confusing yourself trying to understand what I am saying. Why does there have to be only one abomination in this verse when it is clearly plural ? How can there be any abomination at all unless Christ allows it ? What is the 'it' made desolate here ? He, Christ, makes it desolate by removing His protection, allowing all that happened for the last two thousand years since His Crucifixion, which is in the midst of the week still. What is happening right now is in the midst of the week, until the actual AoD, which is one of many but this one is the worst, which then begins the last 3.5 years. The only antichrist mentioned in this verse is the last word which includes him but not only him, the desolate. Did you read Luk 13:35 and Mat 23:38 ? Is there an antichrist there making the Temple Mount desolate ? Of course not ! It is Christ Himself saying 'He' is going to make it desolate. The desolation is, without the Lords Presence and protection, so devastating is this punishment that all kinds of abominations are allowed there, including the AoD. Hope this helps.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8878
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Ready1 on Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:52 pm

Daniel did not understand the vision which was presented in Dan 8:

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
Dan 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Gabriel came to show him the meaning of the vision.

Dan 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
Dan 9:22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Dan 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Looks pretty straightforward and linear to me... :grin:
Just observing.

E.
Ready1
 
Posts: 2093
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:14 am
Location: Central Cal

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:10 pm

Ready1 wrote:Daniel did not understand the vision which was presented in Dan 8:

You forgot a few verses Ready....He certainly did understand, he was Made to Understand it


Daniel 8

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.
27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.


Where he says, "none understood it," he was referring to Others , Not Himself......since he Was Made to Know and Understand it

Daniel 9 is a separate vision Ready, and Daniel is Again given Understanding of that Particular Vision in that chapter.

If you look at all the visions that he has through the entire book of Daniel, he is Given Understanding after Each Separate Vision.

What actual point are you trying to make?


By the way, you just put up my next example of how the Antecedent rule is a Non-issue, a Non-Proof, that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 Must, by Grammatical Rule, refer back to the Nearest Antecedent.

Can you see that in the text you Gave, and I was going to use?

Here's the part I'm referring to....

"he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."

According to the nearest antecedent rule, it's the Prince of princes that would be broken without hand.

All of the western literary Rules just do not Apply when those Rules are Subject to Hebraic Forms.
In the General sense the Common grammatical rules Often do apply, I would say even Most Often, but Not Always.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Ready1 wrote:Looks pretty straightforward and linear to me... :grin:


Ok, i'll give you another example.....

Just thought of something...before I go further....please tell me, are the following words and verses "straight forward and linear"?

How do they appear to you?

Daniel 7
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:00 am

Hello

It seems to me that there is a lack of understanding about many of the prophecies that Daniel brought forth which we do not understand.

For example Daniel 7:1-12 is about four fallen wicked heavenly hosts, i.e. spirits that stir up the sea of humanity and exercise their dominion over the people who chose to inhabit their respective domains. How do we know this, Paul tells us in Ephesians that we are fighting against Satan and the wicked heavenly hosts,
Ephesians 6:12: - For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Daniel also tells us this as well in Daniel 7:2 when he speaks about the four winds/spirits from heaven and then goes on to explain there respective dominions over the peoples of the earth.
Daniel 7:2- Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven {i.e. four wicked heavenly hosts} were stirring up the Great Sea {i.e. the people making up all of humanity}.
Then in Daniel 7:1-12 we are told that one of the beasts/wicked heavenly hosts is killed and the dominions of the other three beasts/wicked heavenly hosts is taken from them and that they are allowed to for a while longer, for a season and a time.
Daniel 7:11-12: - "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the {little} horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
A complementary passage of scripture is found in Isaiah 24:21-22.
Isaiah 24:21-23: -It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.
They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.


Then in Daniel 7:15-17 we are told that the four beasts, i.e. four fallen wicked heavenly hosts are kings, and that they will rise up out of the earth at some stage in the future to once again trouble the Saints during a fairly short period of time.
Daniel 7:15-18: - "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within my body, and the visions of my head troubled me. I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 'Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth. But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.'

Now in verse 12 we know that the dominions of the beasts are removed from them when they are judged and that in Isaiah 24:22 they are imprisoned in the abyss/bottomless pit which John tells is at the Great river Euphrates and in Revelation 20 we are told that they are locked up in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years when it is unlocked. So in Daniel 7 there is a 1,000 year gap in Daniel's vision between verse 18 and verse 19.

Now as a side note there was something that I noticed in Daniel 4 which tells us that the stump of Babylon will be bound by an iron and a bronze band.
Daniel 4:14-15: - He cried aloud and said thus, 'Hew down the tree and cut off its branches, strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit; let the beasts flee from under it and the birds from its branches. But leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze,
At the moment Babylon is under the influence of both the Third Beast, i.e. a band of bronze visible in the Coalition of the Willing soldiers, and the fourth Beast, i.e. a band of iron, made visible by the IS fighters.

Now the Little horn is mentioned being associated with one of the four heads of the third beast in Daniel 8:8-14.
Daniel 8:8-14: - Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."
The little horn still has his hand firmly on the controls of the trampling of the Sanctuary in Jerusalem. The little horn exercised his influence over one of the heads/princes of the third beast and began trampling the Sanctuary in Jerusalem around the year 250 BCE some 70 plus years after the death of Alexandra the Great and we also know that the fullness of the time of the Gentiles will come to its end in our near future.

We also know that the Little horn is associated with the fourth beast during this present time in Daniel 7:8-11: -
Daniel 7:8-11: - I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.

. . . . . . . . . . . .

"I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame.
Finally we see the Little Horn in our distant future, after the 1,000 years of His imprisonment has passed.

In Daniel 7:19-23 Daniel begins to describe a single entity, one with four sides made up of the previous four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12.
Daniel 7:19-20: - "Then I wished to know the truth about the four {sided} beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
This same picture is also repeated in Revelations 9:13-15: -
Revelation 9:13-15: - Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.
And also in Revelation 13:1-4.
Revelation 13:1-4: - Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
And in our distant future the little horn is once again present in the middle of the action.
Daniel 7:21: - "I was watching; and the same {little} horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
And again Revelation 13 tells as of the activity of the Little Horn in our distant future.
Revelation 13:11-17: - Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


The influence of the Little Horn can be seen from around the year 250 BCE, up and until our near future when the Battle in Heaven will end dramatically with the fallen wicked heavenly host, being Judged and imprisoned for 1,000 years after which they will be released for a little while from the bottomless pit to once more trouble the Saints. At that time he will deceive many by entering into a solemn covenant with them which is then broken and the people are forced to worship the Dragon and the beast which had been killed but which comes miraculously back to life.

It is at this point that Christ firstly deals with the "Beast" and the false prophet and dispatches them both into the Lake of Fire at the end of the Millennium Age just before Satan is also cast into as well.
Revelation 19:19-21: - And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet {i.e. the little horn} who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.


It is after all of the enemies of Christ are dealt with and overcome that Christ will return to the earth in all of His Glory to Judge all the peoples of the earth.

Shalom

Jay Ross
Last edited by Jay Ross on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:20 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:11 am

Hi David,

There are several things that you have mentioned that are still very much up for debate. I will post some of them now, as I only have a few moments before I have to go to my dental appointment. :mrgreen:

Exit40 wrote:Mr B, you continue to see the 'He' as the antichrist setting up the AoD, that is why you are confusing yourself trying to understand what I am saying.


The aforementioned comment that you have made definitely needs clarification. I believe that most of the confusion comes for a lot of those who are seeking the Truth because of the various translations that are out there. Now, in mentioning that if you are saying that the coming Antichrist is not the "he" who is setting up the A0D - then who would be responsible for this Act? Certainly you are NOT saying that it is Christ :humm:

Here are some of the various translations:

Daniel 9:27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

27) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [c]makes desolate.”


Daniel 9:27 - New Living Translation (NLT)

27) The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”



Daniel 9:27 - New International Version (NIV)

27) He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.


Daniel 9:27 - King James Version (KJV)

27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Daniel 9:27 - English Standard Version (ESV)

27) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”


I think you get my point. Nevertheless, it appears to be two very different players in this particular passage of Scripture.
More later when I return.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:09 am

Mr Baldy wrote:The aforementioned comment that you have made definitely needs clarification. I believe that most of the confusion comes for a lot of those who are seeking the Truth because of the various translations that are out there. Now, in mentioning that if you are saying that the coming Antichrist is not the "he" who is setting up the A0D - then who would be responsible for this Act? Certainly you are NOT saying that it is Christ :humm:


Mr B, frankly I don't understand why you or anyone would even say Christ sets up the AoD. To suggest this is ludicrous and antichrist in itself. Please stop saying that is what I am saying, I am not ! It is you who is saying Christ sets up the AoD ! If it hasn't been obvious to you or anyone, I am using the KJV version, and not only that, the Strong's Concordance to seek the meanings of the language the Text was originally written in. Each version of the Texts you provided is doing the same. But none says it quite the way the KJV does. KJV does not name an antichrist in these verses, period, in my estimation. The others name the 'He' as the antichrist who makes a seven year deal of some type, doing so in error, as it is Christ Himself who confirms the Covenant, and in the middle of the week causes the sacrifices to cease by His Crucifixion.

I think you get my point. Nevertheless, it appears to be two very different players in this particular passage of Scripture.
More later when I return.


Yeah I get your point. My point is nevertheless unchanged by any amount of piling on of errors. If you continue to see the 'He' in these passages as anyone besides Christ you will continue to see Christ setting up the AoD, in error, or an antichrist figure seeking to make a future 7 year deal. Did you read Luk 13:35 and Mat 23:38 ? Read those and tell me who is speaking there. If you see an antichrist there nothing I say will ever change your mind. If you see who it really is speaking there, it is a simple matter to see why the Temple Mount and City are made desolate, and by whom. And that it is foretold in Daniel 9 whom 'He' is.

For your perusal...

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/9-24.htm

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8878
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:18 am

Exit40 wrote:Please stop saying that is what I am saying


I never said you were saying this - it was a question to you.

Exit40 wrote:But none says it quite the way the KJV does.


FYI - The King James Version of Scripture has not been the most accurate translation. What I fear is that certain translations will be used to fit one's own theology. I prefer the NASB - as it has been proven to be the most accurate translation. It is a "Word for Word" translation. Additionally, The King James Version may be excellent, but since published we have learned a great deal about both ancient Greek and Hebrew. When the NASB and KJV differ on the rendering of a text, which is not based on variance in the manuscripts, the NASB is usually more favorable to the original languages. Also, slight variations in words chosen and sentence forms used throughout the NASB reflect our current understanding of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, which has improved dramatically in 400 years.


Exit40 wrote: If you continue to see the 'He' in these passages as anyone besides Christ you will continue to see Christ setting up the AoD, in error, or an antichrist figure seeking to make a future 7 year deal.


I have not mentioned that the "He" in these passages is ANYONE in particular, hence the reason for beginning this Thread. It is a question that I am still attempting to discover the answer to.

Exit40 wrote: Did you read Luk 13:35 and Mat 23:38 ? Read those and tell me who is speaking there.


Yes I did read both passages of Scripture - and I get your point. Of course this is Christ speaking here. Now the question become can this be related to the topic at hand? I don't know, therefore I will continue to Study.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:18 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Exit40 wrote:Mr B, you continue to see the 'He' as the antichrist setting up the AoD, that is why you are confusing yourself trying to understand what I am saying.
Mr. B wrote:The aforementioned comment that you have made definitely needs clarification. I believe that most of the confusion comes for a lot of those who are seeking the Truth because of the various translations that are out there.

All of us are at fault a little at least for our own confusion at times, but it doesn't help at all to have such a wide ranging set of modern translations that ARE Mostly and Horribly Responsible regarding this verse (Dan. 9:27) in particular.
I sure agree with you on that Mr. B. :faint:

Later, I plan to discuss the Important Meaning of "Wing", or "as Wings" used in the verse......it will be helpful and interesting I think.

Now to go back and answer you regarding the words "After 69 Weeks", it's much the same as if it is said, "you turn 30 After 30 years".

If it is said, "After" 69 years, then you will not Become 69 Years old Until that Whole Year is Completed. You will not become 69 years old At the Beginning Of or Any Time DURING the 69th year.

So then, as the text says that Christ would be Crucified After 69 Weeks, it is not at all possible that he would be Crucified At ANY TIME During the 69th week. After the Completion of the 69th week is When Christ was Crucified.

And since the 70th Week Follows AFTER the 69th, Christ was Indeed Crucified AFTER the 69th week was Completed.

Just to edit this in........The text does not of course specify How Long AFTER the 69th week was Completed that Christ would be eventually crucified, That was intentional by Daniel, and for good reason.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:40 am

Mr Baldy wrote:FYI - The King James Version of Scripture has not been the most accurate translation. What I fear is that certain translations will be used to fit one's own theology. I prefer the NASB - as it has been proven to be the most accurate translation. It is a "Word for Word" translation. Additionally, The King James Version may be excellent, but since published we have learned a great deal about both ancient Greek and Hebrew. When the NASB and KJV differ on the rendering of a text, which is not based on variance in the manuscripts, the NASB is usually more favorable to the original languages. Also, slight variations in words chosen and sentence forms used throughout the NASB reflect our current understanding of Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, which has improved dramatically in 400 years.


Mr. B,
I know it is extraordinarily popular to believe the King James is Not the Most Accurate and best version, but those beliefs are based on misguided scholarship.
I'm not King James Only, but brother, I've done many years of research on that matter, and I'm telling you the truth.

Just for the sake of this debate, try to just accept the Possibility that the KJV has it Correct on this Text we are discussing.

The NASB is really in error in this verse.

You see Mr. B. , the Hebrew word for "Desolate" is "The Desolate" OR "Desolator". How the Meaning is Changed either way when the Verse Ends is BY the Understanding of Who the "He" Truly Is.

Now, Every Since the Dispensationalists have formed their Opinions that the "he" is antichrist, rather than Christ, they have subsequently Wrongly and Horribly Influenced Modern "Translators" Gross Errors in this very critical verse of Bible Prophecy.

It is such a very Horrible Shame, it really is.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:51 am

Exit40 wrote: What is happening right now is in the midst of the week, until the actual AoD, which is one of many but this one is the worst, which then begins the last 3.5 years.


David, I find your aforementioned comment absolutely interesting. What it "appears" to be suggesting is that there has been a continuous GAP in time from the Crucifixion of Christ to the present day - and will begin to activate again at the beginning of the AOD. How does this differ from the GAP from those who believe that the final week hasn't started yet? What I mean is, there is a timespan either way you look at it - whether you put it 3.5 years into the 70th week; or believe that the 70th week is yet to begin.


Now in viewing your theory that the 70th week has already been initiated, and we are in the "midst" of it - how would you explain the 70 weeks that have been determined when Daniel 12:11-12 mentions this:

Daniel 12:11-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11) From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12) How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!


Let me say that I am in Total agreement with you and Shorty, that there are NO passages of Scripture that mention a 7 year Tribulation period. The time that remains that has been consistent with Scripture is 3.5 years. However, in the aforementioned passages of Scripture - which very CLEARLY exceeds the remaining 3.5 years it would "appear" that the 70 weeks have not been completed.

What say ye?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:08 am

shorttribber wrote:All of us are at fault a little at least for our own confusion at times, but it doesn't help at all to have such a wide ranging set of modern translations that ARE Mostly and Horribly Responsible regarding this verse (Dan. 9:27) in particular.I sure agree with you on that Mr. B.


Absolutely I agree!

shorttribber wrote:the text says that Christ would be Crucified After 69 Weeks


Yes - I agree. I guess I was guilty of "reading into" Scripture - which I have ironically vowed not to do. :(

shorttribber wrote:Just for the sake of this debate, try to just accept the Possibility that the KJV has it Correct on this Text we are discussing.


Shorty, I thank you and David both for all your hard work and diligence in this matter. I love to look into opposing views, especially when there appears to be something that is unclear. I never want to be dogmatic about any views that I may hold. Let me say that "IF" the King James Version dos have it RIGHT on this matter - then there is a very, very strong possibility that you two have been right all together.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:21 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Shorty, I thank you and David both for all your hard work and diligence in this matter. I love to look into opposing views, especially when there appears to be something that is unclear. I never want to be dogmatic about any views that I may hold.

Thank you brother, I know God will show you the truth on this too, and eventually to everyone.
Mr Baldy wrote:Let me say that "IF" the King James Version dos have it RIGHT on this matter - then there is a very, very strong possibility that you two have been right all together.

And that brother will also be proven true eventually.

Although the proving of our being true is absolutely Unimportant, it is only Important that God Himself be proven True.

:banana: And HE Will! :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:24 pm

Hello

If you read my last post you will see the influence of the "Little Horn" the false prophet, over the peoples of the earth for a period that will be approaching three and a half ages when all of the wonders will be finished.

Daniel 9:27 is still in our distant future and it is in our distant future that the little horn will rise up out of the earth to deceive the people with his signs and wonders and he will in cahoots with Satan enter into a solemn covenant with the people of the earth to go up against God and His Saints. At least one third of the earth's population will be killed because they will not worship the beast or it image or Satan. Satan when he returns want the harvest that is not his to have and he will have killed those who will not worship him or want him to be their "diety/god." A little like what is said in Luke 19:12-27 when the "nobleman" returns.

Who is the "he" in Daniel 9:27? The He is the fallen wicked heavenly host/angel described in scripture as the "Little Horn."

Yes, Christ in fulfilling the Covenant requirements, confirms the original Covenant, the covenant that has been in place since the beginning, and has given it a new twist, so to speak, such that the Covenant is like new once more for us to respond too.

The 490 years described in Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled at the end of the fourth age when Israel did not repent of their iniquities and they did not put a stop to their sins.

The 483 years described in Daniel 9:25 were fulfilled by 26 CE, around the time of the beginning of Christ's ministry. It is a coincident that Christ died just before the Passover, around three years later.

Daniel 9:26a simply confirms that Christ died after the construction of Jerusalem was completed with the finishing at that time of the intended refurbishment of the Temple.

Daniel 9:26b tells us that the Prince, the Little Horn, will descend on Jerusalem with his army, lead by a Roman, to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple and will keep the area desolate and devastated until such time that the War in Heaven has ended around the time that the Armies of the Rebelling Kings of the earth, who are against God, are assembling at Armageddon to also be judged.

Another 1,000 years will have to pass before Daniel 9:27 can even commence. Again it is the "Little Horn", the false prophet, who makes the solemn covenant with great signs and wonders with the many people who chose at that time to worship Satan and the beast and the graven image.

In a nut shell, it is the Little Horn who is the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

Shalom

Jay Ross.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:53 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Who is the "he" in Daniel 9:27? The He is the fallen wicked heavenly host/angel described in scripture as the "Little Horn."


Hi Jay Ross,

What do you think about the King James Version translation on this particular verse?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:40 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Who is the "he" in Daniel 9:27? The He is the fallen wicked heavenly host/angel described in scripture as the "Little Horn."


Hi Jay Ross,

What do you think about the King James Version translation on this particular verse?


I believe that Daniel 9:27a should be understood in the following way, "And he who is insolently strong will make a solemn covenant with many for 1 week of years," but I am afraid that some will describe this view as a private understanding and not in keeping with the so called Learned scholars who have provided our various translations.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:04 pm

Jay Ross wrote:I believe that Daniel 9:27a should be understood in the following way, "And he who is insolently strong will make a solemn covenant with many for 1 week of years," but I am afraid that some will describe this view as a private understanding and not in keeping with the so called Learned scholars who have provided our various translations.


Before you become afraid that someone will view what you believe as a "private understanding" - why don't you cite your source?

After all, this isn't about who's "Right" but about edifying the Body of Christ, and coming to a True understanding of God's Word.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Hi Jay,
Back at the other thread, you asked this question....
"You said that you "looked in your Interlinear Bible," but you did not reference which Interlinear Bible it was that you had consulted in determining your conclusion.
Would you be so kind as to provide the name or source and when it was published or copyrighted, of your Interlinear Bible."

Here is the info on the one I have.....
The Interlinear Bible, Hebrew-Greek-English....Jay P. Green, Sr. General Editor and Translator. Copyright 1976,78,80,81,84...second edition 1986.
Sovereign Grace Publishers
The Greek Text (Textus Receptus)used in the Geek Text.
William G. Pierpont was the Primary translator responsible for the Greek.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:14 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:I believe that Daniel 9:27a should be understood in the following way, "And he who is insolently strong will make a solemn covenant with many for 1 week of years," but I am afraid that some will describe this view as a private understanding and not in keeping with the so called Learned scholars who have provided our various translations.


Before you become afraid that someone will view what you believe as a "private understanding" - why don't you cite your source?

After all, this isn't about who's "Right" but about edifying the Body of Christ, and coming to a True understanding of God's Word.


Mr Baldy, I am not worried about being right or wrong, but what I have posted is challenging for members because it goes against what they believe they know beyond a word of a doubt. This understanding has been developed after much research and study on my part in comparing the Hebrew text for every occurrence of H:1396 to see how many time a particular Hebrew word with the Hebrew Root word H:1396 embedded in it, occurs. The particular occurrence in Daniel 9:27a is the only time this particular Hebrew Word is found in the either the Westminster or the B.H.S. Hebrew Texts.

Now with regards to the Hebrew word embedded with the Hebrew Root word H:1285, There are 5 identical Hebrew words with the Hebrew root H:1285 embedded within the word in the Westminster Hebrew text whereas there are 100 identical Hebrew words in the BHS Hebrew text. I had to develop my own tools to determine the above based on the PCStudy Bible data base of the Bible. The tools are not readily available for mere plebs like myself.

The other four Verses where the Hebrew Text for H:1285 in the Westminster Corresponds with Daniel 9:27 are Joshua 24:25, 2 Samuel 5:3, 1 Chronicles 11:3 and 2 Chronicles 23:3.

All I am suggesting for the English Translation of Daniel 9:27a is where my research took me.

Shalom.

PS: Mr Baldy, few on this site cite there sources, perhaps we all need to be that transparent with what we publish on this site.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:37 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The other four Verses where the Hebrew Text for H:1285 in the Westminster Corresponds with Daniel 9:27 are Joshua 24:25, 2 Samuel 5:3, 1 Chronicles 11:3 and 2 Chronicles 23:3.

I remember looking at those examples when you mentioned them before in another thread Jay. At that time I didn't add what I thought was significant regarding them, but I will on this thread.

Before I do that, would you tell us what you think those examples may have in common with the Covenant in Daniel 9:27?

PS, I think you have already told us on that previous thread, the one which I've already mentioned, but here you could tell us again.
I think you first said that those four referred to a Kind of "League" between Men. Am I remembering that correctly?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:46 pm

ST, that is a lot of work to create the necessary data bases to examine each Biblical verse listed.

It is my view, after a cursory glance at the four verses, that each verse describes the making of a solemn covenant, one which could not be broken or changed.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby keithareilly on Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:59 pm

Mr. Baldy,

I think the "he" is Prince Titus, son of Vespasian, who put a stop to the sacrifices and destroyed the temple.
The one week covenant was with their allies in the first Jewish Roman war which lasted one "week".

Keith
keithareilly
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 1680
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:48 pm
Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:33 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST, that is a lot of work to create the necessary data bases to examine each Biblical verse listed.

I meant only the four of them, not all the ones you listed...I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.
Jay Ross wrote:It is my view, after a cursory glance at the four verses, that each verse describes the making of a solemn covenant, one which could not be broken or changed.

Well, we agree on that so far then. I'll add more comments about those four tomorrow.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:06 am

keithareilly wrote:Mr. Baldy,

I think the "he" is Prince Titus, son of Vespasian, who put a stop to the sacrifices and destroyed the temple.
The one week covenant was with their allies in the first Jewish Roman war which lasted one "week".

Keith


HI Keith,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that you are saying that Daniel 9:27 has already been fulfilled?
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:20 am

Jay Ross wrote:All I am suggesting for the English Translation of Daniel 9:27a is where my research took me.


Did it also take you to the Teachings and studies of Michael J Rood?

Or have you applied "The Chronological gospels" "The Life and Seventy Week Ministry of the Messiah"; which was written by Michael J Rood - Hebrew Roots Founder.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:31 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Exit40 wrote: Did you read Luk 13:35 and Mat 23:38 ? Read those and tell me who is speaking there.


Yes I did read both passages of Scripture - and I get your point. Of course this is Christ speaking here. Now the question become can this be related to the topic at hand? I don't know, therefore I will continue to Study.


Mr B, why would those passages NOT be related to this topic ??? Do you agree the Temple Mount, or their House of God there, was destroyed as a direct result of their Crucifying Jesus, the Messiah sent to them ? Here Christ is saying they have rejected everyone He sent to them, and are about to reject even Him. Thus the desolation coming to them later, according to the Law. Consider this ... 483 years, or 69 weeks until Jesus is anointed at His baptism, becoming fully God and fully Man, this being 'unto Messiah the Prince' of Dan 9:25. Consider Jesus's anointing happened at the precise moment of the ending of the 69th week coincident to the very beginning of the 70th week. Counting numerically as we humans do in a rational fashion, 70 comes right after 69. Is it just a coincidence His Ministry is 3.5 years in length ? And that He was Crucified as the Lamb of God, just as Prophesied, ending His Ministry as Messiah to teh Jews ? This was hidden from even the Disciples, they didn't get it either. Why ? To fool satan into killing Christ, to fulfill the Prophecy's and bring in the Age of Grace, the Promised Seed being Christ Himself. And by Grace, us the many of the nations, in Him. Jesus as Messiah the Prince is cut off at the midst of the week, confirming the Covenant God made with Man through Abraham. So why would Daniel, who has been writing this Prophecy about the Jews, the Temple Mount and City, and Jesus their/our Messiah/Savior, suddenly bring in another at the very end who has heretofore not been described ? Simple answer, he wouldn't and didn't, But this has been twisted around to make the 70th week future so one can believe we will be raptured out of here and not experience tribulation and wrath of God. My best guess at this point, as the modern timelines that include a full 70th week mostly revolve around Christians getting out of here unscathed. Think about it, the mystery continues for those who will not see. Not can't, won't.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
User avatar
Exit40
Supporting Member
 
Posts: 8878
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:46 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:13 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:All I am suggesting for the English Translation of Daniel 9:27a is where my research took me.


Did it also take you to the Teachings and studies of Michael J Rood?

Or have you applied "The Chronological gospels" "The Life and Seventy Week Ministry of the Messiah"; which was written by Michael J Rood - Hebrew Roots Founder.


No, I have not sort out his teachings or read them.

PS: - Before I even consider picking up any "End Times Teaching" books to read, I look for references to a number of key proof scriptural statements concerning specific verses. If their understanding of these key proof texts do not match what I have come to understand, then the book is left on the stand and I walk away from purchasing any of the books. One of my required proofs is who the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are. Another is the understanding of Genesis 15 and the purpose of the solemn covenant that God enters into at the end of the chapter. Another is the timeline that they hold too. Etc. So no I am very selective as to what I will read. Even Joel Richardson is on my "do not read" list now.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jay Ross
 
Posts: 1373
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

Re: Who is HE?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:29 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Ready1 wrote:Looks pretty straightforward and linear to me... :grin:


Ok, i'll give you another example.....

Just thought of something...before I go further....please tell me, are the following words and verses "straight forward and linear"?

How do they appear to you?

Daniel 7
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


Just wanted to re-post this from above.....I'm not sure Ready1 saw this and I'm still waiting for that response.
Please forgive me folks if I seem impatient for Ready1's answer on this...just wanted to be sure, there have been quite a few responses after it and wanted to be sure Ready1 hadn't missed it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 4981
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Next

Return to Prophecy Debate Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests