A covenant with many

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:38 pm

Jay Ross wrote:So in light of Matthew 24, you are telling me that the End of the World is a near future event because you believe that the Great tribulation is a near future event. Or are you having a two way bet again by the (Possibly) tacked onto the end of your statement.

The end of the World is not a near future event, I don't believe so, and I have not said so.
However, I do believe the Great tribulation to be a near future event.

So, I have not said, the end of the world IS a near future event BEACAUSE the Great Tribulation is a near future event.

This has nothing to do with a two way bet, it has something to do with what is written in Mathew 24.

The AOD is what Christ said we are to SEE and Understand regarding the Great Tribulation, that's what I expect to see, at the Dome of the Rock in our very near future.

I have not, up till this point, even mentioned the end of the world have I?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:28 am

Jay Ross wrote:As I have previously answered, The redemption of the Nation of Israel will occur in our near future during/after the judgement of the rebelling Kings at Armageddon and that they will live in peace during the Millennium Age. During the Armageddon event they will see Jesus afar off and seek His/God's terms of peace. It will be at this time that they will see the scars on Jesus' body and weep.


Thank you for clarifying this is in the rear time period. So do they once again seek His peace terms at the end of the Millennium ? I was under the impression this was the time period you spoke of. Pardon me if I get confused by your writing style. You sometimes include so much information in one sentence it is hard to figure what it was you intended to talk about. And sometime you leave things out too. Perhaps if we sticl to one point and answer that before moving long we can get more accomplished ? At last as far as understanding each others beliefs about these end times passages.

The Daniel 9:27 prophecy is about the "little horn" making a solemn covenant, just like God did in Genesis 15:18 when He walked between the cut halves of the animals to enter into a "sign" covenant with Abraham. A comparison of the Hebrew should confirm this for you.


I believe the Covenant of Daniel 9:27 'IS' the Covenant of God and Abraham, confirmed by Christ Himself with His 3.5 year Ministry and Crucifixion. Please provide the scriptures that state the antichrist enters into a covenant with anyone, just like the one of God and Abraham. And you'll have to demonstrate why any passage in Hebrews regarding this Prophecy refers to the end of the Millennium Jay. I look forward to that discussion, as Hebrews is one of my favorite chapters,

I trust that the above answers your question.


Nearly. Just to clear my mind of this confusion, do the Jews seek God's terms of peace at the end of the Millennium too ? And if so, why and in what fashion ? If your answer is no, no further explanation will be necessary.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:00 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Thank you for clarifying this is in the rear???? :lol: time period. So do they once again seek His peace terms at the end of the Millennium ?


The bible speaks of the Gospel message being given until the "ends" of the earth, time wise, so yes, people will seek God's terms of peace right up and until the end of the Millennium Age. However, after the end of the first 1,000 years, when Satan is released for a little while period, a time of great falling away will also begin with Satan going out to deceive all the nations of the earth by initially deceivingly entering into a solemn covenant with many people which he will then break when he enters the Holy Place, Jerusalem and then goes about establishing himself as the deity that all the people of the earth should worship. In Luke 19 and Matthew 25 it tells us that Satan goes away for a time, i.e. when he is locked up in the bottomless pit, and that when he comes back, i.e. released from the bottomless pit, he purposely sets about reaping a harvest he did not tend and that he did not scatter the seeds for that harvest. After he has "received his harvest" he gives the following command in Luke 19:27: - But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." This is the Great Tribulation, that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24

Now the above is contrary to the traditional understanding of scripture which is used to get people to work hard to bring in the kingdom of God so that with their reward in Luke they can then "Lord" it over the people during the Millennium Age but in reality they will have no time available for them to exercise their "reward" from Satan because the time of Judgement will be upon them.

Jesus on the other hand paints a very different picture of what the Saints can expect right up and until the time of the final judgement: -

John 15:18-16:4

The World's Hatred

18 "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'

The Coming Rejection

26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

Jesus Warns and Comforts His Disciples

16:1 "These things I have spoken to you, that you should not be made to stumble {i.e. fall away}. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.

"And these things I did not say to you at the beginning, because I was with you.



Exit40 wrote:I was under the impression this was the time period you spoke of. Pardon me if I get confused by your writing style. You sometimes include so much information in one sentence it is hard to figure what it was you intended to talk about. And sometime you leave things out too. Perhaps if we stick to one point and answer that before moving along we can get more accomplished ? At last as far as understanding each other's beliefs about these end times passages.
:oops: I may have start this again with my above response.

Exit40 wrote:
The Daniel 9:27 prophecy is about the "little horn" making a solemn covenant, just like God did in Genesis 15:18 when He walked between the cut halves of the animals to enter into a "sign" covenant with Abraham. A comparison of the Hebrew should confirm this for you.


I believe the Covenant of Daniel 9:27 'IS' the Covenant of God and Abraham, confirmed by Christ Himself with His 3.5 year Ministry and Crucifixion. Please provide the scriptures that state the antichrist enters into a covenant with anyone, just like the one of God and Abraham. And you'll have to demonstrate why any passage in Hebrews regarding this Prophecy refers to the end of the Millennium Jay. I look forward to that discussion, as Hebrews is one of my favorite chapters,


David I was saying that the covenantal process in Daniel 9:27a will be similar to the covenantal process as presented in Genesis 15:7-10, 17. I was not suggesting that the respective covenantal content, i.e. the words contained in the two covenants, were similar in any way.

Now in a previous post I explained that the little horn of Daniel 8 is the "prince/ruler of the fallen heavenly Hosts" and that the phrase "Prince/ruler of the hosts" is God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In my previous post in response to your post, I was attempting to demonstrate that Jesus was not mentioned or referenced in Daniel 8 as you had suggested. Perhaps I was miss reading your post as well at the time of my response. Daniel 8 goes on to tell us that God allows the "little horn" Satan, to establish an army of people who will enter Jerusalem to destroy both it and the Temple.

Remember, Satan through Herod, had attempted to have Jesus killed in Bethlehem, a few days after he was born, and that Satan himself had challenged Jesus three times after Jesus' 40 day fast in the desert to bring him down such that Jesus would worship him, Satan.

Now, 2,000 or so years ago, we are told in Daniel 8, that Satan will be closely associated with the third Beast of Daniel 7:1-12.

Now coming forward to our present day, we are told in Daniel 7:8 and 11 that the little horn, Satan, will also be closely associated with the 4th beast of Daniel 7:1-12.

One of the signs of the three foul frog like spirits that went out to the whole world, is that Satan is in control of the actions of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and of the "armies of the people" who chose to inhabit the dominions of their respective "beast."

Now if Daniel 9:26-27 are three sequential prophecies, then we need to understand that there is a 1,000 year time gap in the fulfilment of these three prophecies between when the war in heaven is over and Satan has a chance to be able to go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth with a solemn covenant which he then goes on to break after three and a half years.

Exit40 wrote:
I trust that the above answers your question.


Nearly. Just to clear my mind of this confusion, do the Jews seek God's terms of peace at the end of the Millennium too ? And if so, why and in what fashion ? If your answer is no, no further explanation will be necessary.


David, up and until this present time I have not sort to definitively answer this particular question.

Now if God enters into a Nation of Priests covenant with the Nation of Israel in our near future, and the Nation of Israel are redeemed, then my logical answer is "NO" they do not seek God's terms of peace at the end of the Millennium Age because they will have been living within God's terms of peace since the beginning of the Millennium Age.

Remember that Satan goes up against the Saints who are living in villages/towns without walls. A sign that their is peace within the land.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:38 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Thank you for clarifying this is in the rear???? :lol: time period. So do they once again seek His peace terms at the end of the Millennium ?


Jay, you are probably unaware of this, I suffered an injury which caused me to not be able to type well. Every other word or so is misspelled, and spell check is a real Blessing. However, the word ';rear' is not misspelled so it got by unnoticed in my re reads and editing. It take me a long time to write ans edit a post not only for correct spelling but also content. I want to be careful and coherent about what I say anyway and try to stick to the point, at least trying to include relevant issues. Hard to do when my fingers don't get the message. At any rate, Ia nm happy youg oy a ;laufgh ta= my expenmxse. 'Unedited version'.

Now the above is contrary to the traditional understanding of scripture which is used to get people to work hard to bring in the kingdom of God so that with their reward in Luke they can then "Lord" it over the people during the Millennium Age but in reality they will have no time available for them to exercise their "reward" from Satan because the time of Judgement will be upon them.


Yes Jay, your is certainly an nontraditional understanding.

Jesus on the other hand paints a very different picture of what the Saints can expect right up and until the time of the final judgement: -


I see no contradiction of this statement and anything in the parable. Non believers get persecuted too, it's the way of the world. but, they don't get persecuted for the Name of the Lord. I said teh following ...

I believe the Covenant of Daniel 9:27 'IS' the Covenant of God and Abraham, confirmed by Christ Himself with His 3.5 year Ministry and Crucifixion. Please provide the scriptures that state the antichrist enters into a covenant with anyone, just like the one of God and Abraham. And you'll have to demonstrate why any passage in Hebrews regarding this Prophecy refers to the end of the Millennium Jay. I look forward to that discussion, as Hebrews is one of my favorite chapters,


Here is your reply then ? Along with a six paragraph explanation of a process unrelated to the present topic, which I will not repeat here.

David I was saying that the covenantal process in Daniel 9:27a will be similar to the covenantal process as presented in Genesis 15:7-10, 17. I was not suggesting that the respective covenantal content, i.e. the words contained in the two covenants, were similar in any way.

Now in a previous post I explained that the little horn of Daniel 8 is the "prince/ruler of the fallen heavenly Hosts" and that the phrase "Prince/ruler of the hosts" is God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In my previous post in response to your post, I was attempting to demonstrate that Jesus was not mentioned or referenced in Daniel 8 as you had suggested.


I was hoping you would bring in Hebrew Scriptures to offer an interpretation and explanation of what the Covenant of Daniel 9 is, and how Christ fulfilled it. Oh wait, that's not what you believe, so I'm guessing that is why we are not going into Hebrews for the answers.

Exit40 wrote:I trust that the above answers your question.


David, up and until this present time I have not sort to definitively answer this particular question.

Now if God enters into a Nation of Priests covenant with the Nation of Israel in our near future, and the Nation of Israel are redeemed, then my logical answer is "NO" they do not seek God's terms of peace at the end of the Millennium Age because they will have been living within God's terms of peace since the beginning of the Millennium Age.

Remember that Satan goes up against the Saints who are living in villages/towns without walls. A sign that their is peace within the land.

Shalom
[/quote]

This is a complete dodge of the issue, a non answer answer. Not what I have come to expect from you Jay, as you are normally very precise, but not concise, in your explanations and interpretations. I will wait for your proof of your interpretation as you believe it to be in the Book of Hebrews, getting back to the topic of the Covenant of Daniel 9.

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:30 pm

David, sat down this morning and read the book of Hebrews from cover to cover and am lost as to why you believe that the Book of Hebrews is important to the discussion on the topic of, "A covenant with many."

I saw references to covenants from the time in the garden of Eden up to the covenants and Psalms around the time of the kings in the Land of Canaan.

Some of it seemed to be confusing as it was mixing the mentioned covenants together and needs further reflection to flesh out the intent of Hebrew.

Perhaps you may like to point to the passage that you believe endorses your point of view.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:58 pm

Jay Ross wrote: read the book of Hebrews from cover to cover ..................."I saw references to covenants from the time in the garden of Eden up to the covenants and Psalms around the time of the kings in the Land of Canaan. Some of it seemed to be confusing as it was mixing the mentioned covenants together and needs further reflection to flesh out the intent of Hebrew.(colored by ST)


Jay,
Have you considered that Paul does not mix up any of the covenants, but instead it's an incorrect perspective you have of them?

Since he is an Apostle, I'm sure his understanding, and explanation of them are correct.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:16 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote: read the book of Hebrews from cover to cover ..................."I saw references to covenants from the time in the garden of Eden up to the covenants and Psalms around the time of the kings in the Land of Canaan. Some of it seemed to be confusing as it was mixing the mentioned covenants together and needs further reflection to flesh out the intent of Hebrew.(colored by ST)


Jay,
Have you considered that Paul does not mix up any of the covenants, but instead it's an incorrect perspective you have of them?

Since he is an Apostle, I'm sure his understanding, and explanation of them are correct.


ST, are you playing the person here instead of the content of what I have posted.

I have clearly said that I need further reflection to flesh out the intent of Hebrews for myself. I have not indicated in any form or manner what my understanding of the intent of the Book of Hebrews is. It seems to me that you are wanting to throw me under the bus, so to speak, for your own reasons by claim that I HAVE AN INCORRECT PERSPECTIVE OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS when I have not attempted to express my perspective at all on the Book of Hebrews.

There are many differing views as to who may have written the Book of Hebrews and the link to a google search page lists a number of published opinion : - https://www.google.com.au/#q=authorship ... ebrews+pdf

In provide this link I have not expressed any opinion as to who is the author of the Book of Hebrews

On a side note, Joel Richardson has posted an interesting comment on the 2017 September, 23rd suggested event as being around the time of the end of this present age and is suggesting that this date setting has been going on for many years, i.e. like the Book 88 reasons why the Rapture will occur in 1988 and that each previous prediction have all come to naught so far. He seems to be is suggesting that we need to be looking at other signs to understand when the end of this age will occur. Link to Joel's web site :
http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?doing_wp_c ... 1718750000
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:50 pm

Jay Ross wrote: It seems to me that you are wanting to throw me under the bus, so to speak, for your own reasons by claim that I HAVE AN INCORRECT PERSPECTIVE OF THE BOOK OF HEBREWS when I have not attempted to express my perspective at all on the Book of Hebrews.

As far as the Author of Hebrews, I've read those ideas...i'll stand by the Fact that Paul Was the Author.

Since you have mentioned the many covenants that you think exist, it seems good that you Should have a Good Understanding of the Book of Hebrews.

And, I'm not throwing you under the bus, I've held you to account regarding your Understanding of such important covenants in scripture, while you are admittedly Without a Clear Understanding of such an Important book as Hebrews.

If you contend that you do have a good understanding of Hebrews, how is it that you have said the following.....
"Some of it seemed to be confusing as it was mixing the mentioned covenants together and needs further reflection to flesh out the intent of Hebrew."
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:56 pm

Jay Ross wrote:On a side note, Joel Richardson has posted an interesting comment on the 2017 September, 23rd suggested event as being around the time of the end of this present age and is suggesting that this date setting has been going on for many years, i.e. like the Book 88 reasons why the Rapture will occur in 1988 and that each previous prediction have all come to naught so far. He seems to be is suggesting that we need to be looking at other signs to understand when the end of this age will occur. Link to Joel's web site : http://www.joelstrumpet.com/?doing_wp_c ... 1718750000

We will just wait and see jay....if it's all for not.
I've not made ANY TIME Prediction as to the Day of the Coming of Christ....those comparisons are not accurate then are they?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:43 am

Jay Ross wrote:


Exit40 wrote:
The Daniel 9:27 prophecy is about the "little horn" making a solemn covenant, just like God did in Genesis 15:18 when He walked between the cut halves of the animals to enter into a "sign" covenant with Abraham. A comparison of the Hebrew should confirm this for you.


I believe the Covenant of Daniel 9:27 'IS' the Covenant of God and Abraham, confirmed by Christ Himself with His 3.5 year Ministry and Crucifixion. Please provide the scriptures that state the antichrist enters into a covenant with anyone, just like the one of God and Abraham. And you'll have to demonstrate why any passage in Hebrews regarding this Prophecy refers to the end of the Millennium Jay. I look forward to that discussion, as Hebrews is one of my favorite chapters,


I misread 'Hebrews' where you said 'Hebrew'. Sorry. Of course, it is not a coincidence as that very Book is what takes down your errant theory. But as you say, we see what we ant to see. I have, you have, we all have. I will bring in Hebrews to show where the Covenant of Daniel 9 is talked about and explained for us if you thinik it owuld help.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:49 pm

ST, if as you are saying you are holding me to account for my understanding of the various covenants that have been entered into and recorded in the Bible, then you are also being held to account by your own words to demonstrate that your own understanding of the "important" covenants in the bible and your very own interpretations of the scriptures. I am the least of those who questions many of your stated private "revelations" of the scriptures.

It all comes down to our own personal interpretation of the bible and the tools that we have to help us to understand the original meaning of any of the passages that we study.

Whether or not you or I have come close to understanding God's play book of the time from the creation until the final judgement of His creation, only time will tell.

Now have a good day, ST.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:56 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

I misread 'Hebrews' where you said 'Hebrew'. Sorry. Of course, it is not a coincidence as that very Book is what takes down your errant theory. But as you say, we see what we ant to see. I have, you have, we all have. I will bring in Hebrews to show where the Covenant of Daniel 9 is talked about and explained for us if you thinik it owuld help.

God Bless You

David


Apology accepted David.

Now, if you believe that the Book of Hebrews exposes my "errant theory," as you have put it, then by all means, I would welcome your input.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST, if as you are saying you are holding me to account for my understanding of the various covenants that have been entered into and recorded in the Bible, then you are also being held to account by your own words to demonstrate that your own understanding of the "important" covenants in the bible and your very own interpretations of the scriptures.

That will be fine, i'll start a thread and put several links to where I've already written on them.
It will be good to consolidate many of those posts for you and other readers.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:57 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Now, if you believe that the Book of Hebrews exposes my "errant theory," as you have put it, then by all means, I would welcome your input.

Shalom


HI Jay. I am not trying to be insulting here with the word 'errant'. I simply believe you are mistaken. This discussion is about the Covenant of Daniel 9:27 being the Abrahamic Covenant, which contains the Covenant of the Law. We can get into a great discussion of the different 'Covenants' which ST is going to provide in another thread and is important to this thread also. My opinion is, the Abrahamic Covenant covers all the major purported different Covenants, as it is inclusive of them. They spring from there, out of it, adding more detail as to how the Promise is going to be affected. Hopefully we will see that shortly. Now as to the Covenant of the Law, sacrifices were required, the Blood Sacrifice of Atonement being the one caused to be ceased mentioned in Daniel. Jesus fulfilled the Promise of this sacrifice by being cut off in the midst of the week in which He is Confirming this Covenant. Ultimately the Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant is this....

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


By God's Great Mercy, this includes us...

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

This is the 'Covenant with Many ... for One Week' of Daniel 9:27 fulfilling the Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant. All Israel includes us, we are part of the many for whom the Promise is made. Why us too?

Jhn 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


The references in this passage to Moses, the giver of the Law which requires the Blood Sacrifice of Atonement and the Promise it includes, is ultimately fulfilled by Christ being lifted up, His Crucifixion in the midst of the 70th week. We are still in the midst of the 70th week, between the Crucifixion and the AoD which commences the second half.

Continues in my next post.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:40 am

So having established with the basics of Scriptural evidence the 'Covenant with Many' of Daniel 9:27, and there is so much more we can get into for the full weight, let's now move into Hebrews to see a major part of this evidence. We are talking about Christ fulfilling the Promise of the Covenant, and where He is now in time in this regard, as are we, and what He is doing, as are we.

The Law of Moses being the manner of which describes Christ is to come, and the Law cannot save but only point to the need of a Savior, who is Christ. Is this following passage then not the Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant ?

Heb 7:13
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 ¶ For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.


The power of an endless life, this is Salvation, Jesus being our Savior and High Priest, the Promise of the Abrahamic Covenant...

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 ¶ And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


The Covenant with Many, us and all like us, from the uttermost that come to God by Him, because of our belief in Him, because He is now our High Priest who makes intercession for us. The Covenant which contains the Law requires this, now fulfilled for us, the many, in Christ.

Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.


And here it is ! The Word of the Oath, the Abrahamic Covenant, and the Promise it contains in the Law of Moses which is the sacrifice of our Savior, Who did so for the Salvation of the many of the world to the uttermost parts of it, in the time of it, which so far is in the midst of the week. In time this is us Jay, you and I Brother, and all the others before and since, and until the end of the world which God so Loves. We are the many of the Covenant.

Continues in my next post...

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:47 am

So we are in the midst of the 70th week, between Christs Blood Sacrifice, required by the Law contained in the Covenant through Priests, and as a fulfillment of the Promise of Salvation and eternal life spoken of therein. As the Law could not save, nor the priests, and pointed to the Savior Jesus Christ, Him now being our only High Priest as the need for the Sacrifices required by the Law have been caused to be ceased, confirming both the Law and the Promise of the Covenant.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

The New Testament confirms the Old Testament, The Covenant with many starting with Abraham, and by other Scriptures all laid out for us we can to understand that in the Daniel 9:24-27 Prophecy is contained the Law and the Promise of the Covenant, with many, which Christ first came to fulfill, just as written.

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

WE, the many of the Covenant which Christ confirmed, live by Faith in Him, that He should do that which is Promised in that Covenant, which is the Living Word, and is our Hope. Through Christ this is us, the many of the Covenant of Promise ...

Heb 12:22 ¶ But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


Start to finish there is but one Covenant, described by it's many aspects of the Law and the Promise, Everlasting.

Heb 13:20 ¶ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


So there is the Covenant of Daniel 9 spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, in brief. Considering not only the Prophecy of 9:24-27, but the whole of the Chapter 9 in which Daniel pleads with the Lord to do His Promise according to the Law, which was then to revive Israel, Jerusalem, and the Holy sanctuary in the Temple. The history of Israel is contained in that Prophecy, we are in the midst of the week of 9:27, the confirmation of the Covenant with many, in Christ, with another three and a half years of that Prophecy to yet come, and a Millennium to come after that wherein the Jews living in the Holy Land will be the teachers and Priests of the Lord, as will we.

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:46 pm

David,

Your posts above all show that there is/are a covenant/covenants that God has established for the salvation of many, but what your posts do not conclusively show is that the Daniel 9:27a covenant is the same covenant that God Himself has established with all of mankind.

If God swears by Himself His Covenant in times past before Christ's first advent, then why is there a need for a "brand new covenant" during Christ's first advent if God is the same today, yesterday or in the future.

It is not God who requires a "brand new covenant" but us, his created people who do not want the covenant through which we are saved to be tainted by the sins of our past generations but inherited by us. We do not want to acknowledge that we were born into sin because of Adam's action in the Garden of Eden. Remember that Jesus berated the religious leaders during his first advent that they had joined their fathers in the murder of past prophets whom God had sent to them by the very act of building monuments to honour the murdered prophets.

It seems to me from your posts that the argument you are attempting to use to justify your theory is that God has established His covenant for the salvation of all people who will love him and keep his statues, i.e. the many people, who will gain their salvation when the Blood of Christ is offered up as a worthy sacrifice during the final time of Judgement, and have linked that to the "many" with whom the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a will be made even though they are two very different groups of people.

Is there anywhere in the Book of Hebrews which clearly states that the covenant that is being referred to by the author of this book is the "covenant" that is will be made with many in our distant future and spoken about in Daniel 9:27a.

Remember, there will be a great falling away during the little while period towards the end of the Millennium Age when there will be a great falling away because people will enter into a covenant with death, i.e. Satan, and join him in marching up to Jerusalem and surrounding the camp of the Saint who do not want Satan to be their deity, to kill them all as Jesus prophetically foretold to us in the Parable of the Minas found in Luke 19.

I look forward to your response.

Shalom

Jay
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:23 pm

Jay Ross wrote:If God swears by Himself His Covenant in times past before Christ's first advent, then why is there a need for a "brand new covenant" during Christ's first advent if God is the same today, yesterday or in the future.


What do you think it means for God to Swear by Himself?

Because He, KNEW that He would Confirm (Cause to Prevail) and Fulfill ALL that He Swore/Promised BY Himself (Christ)



And also Isaiah...
Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil 2
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:52 pm

:a3: Great posts David, really very beautiful and wonderful words of God Given us, The Many :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:07 pm

Gal 3
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Confirmed (Promised By an Oath) Before IN (BY)Christ....WHO WAS THEN Present...and THAT PROMISE is WHAT Christ Came TO DO/Fulfill
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The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:15 pm

Dan9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This, Christ HAS DONE, During the 70th WEEK, Not in a Space Between the 69th and the 70th week.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:58 pm

Thank you shorttribber, and many others, this thread has really opened my eyes, and also has me digging into the passage word for word very deeply, and I'm enjoying it. :) I've been so busy with work the past week I haven't had too much time to collect my thoughts as I would like to ... but I'd like to continue this discussion if you'd like as I'm able to soon.

Also thank you for bringing the emphasis back to Christ, I sometimes get so tied up with trying to get the verse understood that I forget the big picture and so I must pause, smile and think ahead to the blessed hope that is ours in Christ ... eternity with Jesus the King of Kings, even so come quickly Lord Jesus!
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:23 am

shorttribber wrote:Dan9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

This, Christ HAS DONE, During the 70th WEEK, Not in a Space Between the 69th and the 70th week.


Are you really sure of your facts here ST? Isn't the 490 years, of Daniel 9:24, determined upon thy people the Israelite Nation and upon the Holy City to finish their transgressions against God?

Then, in the narrative, God tells us that after this time period, that he will make reconciliation for iniquity, and will bring in everlasting Righteousness, and will seal up the vision and the prophecy and will anoint the most Holy.

Yes I agree with you ST, that Christ was instrumental if fulfilling, to some extent, this second portion of the Daniel 9:24 prophecy, and that it only occurred after the fulfilment of the full 490 years, (i.e. the seventy weeks of years) first and not as you are suggesting during the seventieth week of years.

It is important to understand that Daniel 9:26b has a timespan approaching some 2,000 or so years, until the war in Heaven is ended. This prophecy is also linked to the prophecy in Daniel 8:9-17 and speaks of a little horn figure/fallen heavenly host who is given an army to trample the Sanctuary and Jerusalem for a period of 2,300 years which begins around the year 250 BC.

I hear you theory, but I do not see the scriptures you are presenting as proof backing up your theory.

Have a good day ST
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:46 am

Jay Ross wrote:David,

Your posts above all show that there is/are a covenant/covenants that God has established for the salvation of many, but what your posts do not conclusively show is that the Daniel 9:27a covenant is the same covenant that God Himself has established with all of mankind.


Jay, it is obvious you are missing the point of the Book of Hebrews, which is the only Book I intended to use per our previous conversation. However, other Scripture adds to this, the full weight of it confirming what I have been led to believe. And I do believe it with all my heart as I can see it so clearly for the perspective of Scripture being about our need, the many, for Christ, and Him and His work, His need for us out of His great Love, and how He is with us now and will be to a fuller extent in the near future. Discussing this over the years it almost seems to be a matter of Faith, if you believe it you can find many other Scriptures which apply, further confirmation of this Truth. Jay, this is not to say you don't have Faith. Surely you do Brother, evidence your intensive studies.

If God swears by Himself His Covenant in times past before Christ's first advent, then why is there a need for a "brand new covenant" during Christ's first advent if God is the same today, yesterday or in the future.

It is not God who requires a "brand new covenant" but us, his created people who do not want the covenant through which we are saved to be tainted by the sins of our past generations but inherited by us. We do not want to acknowledge that we were born into sin because of Adam's action in the Garden of Eden. Remember that Jesus berated the religious leaders during his first advent that they had joined their fathers in the murder of past prophets whom God had sent to them by the very act of building monuments to honour the murdered prophets.


Jay, if it were up to us we would be worshiping satan. We are sinful beings and are condemned to the second death for our sins because we continually reject God and His Christ. Without Christ our covenant is with death, and we cannot be saved. God our Father in His great Grace has given us the Gift of Faith, through Christ the Promised Seed of the Covenant. The Law only pointed to Him, did not establish His redemptive power through Him. Only by His death on the Cross for us the many was this Power revealed and come into fruition. 'Grace in His Sight' of the OT became 'Grace for the Many' through the Covenant. This is the mystery satan didn't understand, or he would never had killed Jesus through the Jews. The Law of the Covenant could not save them either, only the required Blood of the Perfect Sacrifice of Jesus, our Fathers only begotten Son could save them/us. Through Christ's confirmation of the Covenant, the many of the whole world became capable of Salvation, by Faith through the Gift of Grace.

And this is the Revealed Power of our Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, that through Christ's Sacrifice we may obtain the Holy Spirit by Faith through Grace and Salvation unto Eternal Life in Him.

It seems to me from your posts that the argument you are attempting to use to justify your theory is that God has established His covenant for the salvation of all people who will love him and keep his statues, i.e. the many people, who will gain their salvation when the Blood of Christ is offered up as a worthy sacrifice during the final time of Judgement, and have linked that to the "many" with whom the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a will be made...


Yes Jay, as I just explained above, and I am happy to see you understand what I am writing to you. Your assessment is correct right up to the point where I ended your quote. Now this last part of your quote below ...

even though they are two very different groups of people.


... is answered by the Abrahamic Covenant in which through Abraham's Seed, Christ, all people will be Blessed. That there are different people groups mentioned anywhere or specifically is of no matter to the Covenant, with the exception of Jews being part of the physical Seed of Abraham, therefore the Chosen people of God, for His purpose. They have never fulfilled His purpose for them however, thus the need for Christ and to give by Grace the time periods following his Sacrifice, that the times of Gentile believers coming in can be full, to every single last one. There is a subtle difference in the context of Gentiles, we have already discussed this, with pagan gentles being the other important understanding.

Is there anywhere in the Book of Hebrews which clearly states that the covenant that is being referred to by the author of this book is the "covenant" that is will be made with many in our distant future and spoken about in Daniel 9:27a.


Jay, the distant future aspect comes from your understanding, not mine, and is part of your misunderstanding. Therefore the Book of Hebrews will not be able to answer this for you. But, if you can unlearn this misunderstanding for a moment and look at the following, already presented, which is the Covenant Confirmed, for all time, for everyone of us the many who are part of Adam, Noah, and Abraham by Faith in Christ through which we become the adopted Sons of God ...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

This is the most important part of our understanding of the Covenant. Blood is required, unto the second death and that is our destination. Christ took this upon Himself because of the Hebrews failure to be priests and teachers to the world in the time given them. They transgressed the Law, the first testament, a part of the Covenant that applies specifically to them, and those who come to God through the Law which cannot save. But for the sake of the many Christ is by Grace able to save 'they which are called' throughout time, Hebrews and gentiles alike, until those times be full, according to the Law which is still in effect, as the remaining Jews will find out in our near future. By Grace according to the Covenant Christ is able to save them also. Also Jay, please understand when I say Jesus saves, I do not necessarily mean temporal life here on Earth, which I feel is of no consequence if we do not serve the Living God.

Remember, there will be a great falling away during the little while period towards the end of the Millennium Age when there will be a great falling away because people will enter into a covenant with death, i.e. Satan, and join him in marching up to Jerusalem and surrounding the camp of the Saint who do not want Satan to be their deity, to kill them all as Jesus prophetically foretold to us in the Parable of the Minas found in Luke 19.


Christ can save any who fall away, even if there is two falling away's. He loses none, their names are tattooed 'in' the Palm of His Hand. I believe you have some misunderstandings here too about when the covenant with death is, when Jerusalem gets surrounded, and who the Nobleman is in Luke 19. We can discuss this separately as they are of no specific import to this discussion.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:32 am

Jay Ross wrote:Are you really sure of your facts here ST? Isn't the 490 years, of Daniel 9:24, determined upon they people the Israelite Nation and upon the Holy City to finish their transgressions against God?


Does the text say "the Israelite Nation"?

Does the text say "Their Transgression"?

Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Who are "Daniel's People"? They that are of the SAME HOUSEHOLD of FAITH, (The Many that are Graft Into God's Family/ Daniel's People).
What is "THE Transgression"? Rejection of Christ, the Son of God. The Denial of God's Son/ That spirit of Antichrist.

Yes Jay, I am sure of these facts.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:43 am

aaron wrote:Thank you shorttribber, and many others, this thread has really opened my eyes, and also has me digging into the passage word for word very deeply, and I'm enjoying it. :) I've been so busy with work the past week I haven't had too much time to collect my thoughts as I would like to ... but I'd like to continue this discussion if you'd like as I'm able to soon.

Also thank you for bringing the emphasis back to Christ, I sometimes get so tied up with trying to get the verse understood that I forget the big picture and so I must pause, smile and think ahead to the blessed hope that is ours in Christ ... eternity with Jesus the King of Kings, even so come quickly Lord Jesus!


Glad you are enjoying the treasure hunt :grin: and you can and are beginning to see the real gold to be had, the riches of God's Promises to us who are In Christ, Abraham's SEED.

:banana: So true , the emesis is Surely and Squarely on Christ. That's the Beauty of the Entire Chapter of Daniel 9. :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:07 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Are you really sure of your facts here ST? Isn't the 490 years, of Daniel 9:24, determined upon they people the Israelite Nation and upon the Holy City to finish their transgressions against God?


<snip>

What is "THE Transgression"? Rejection of Christ, the Son of God. The Denial of God's Son/ That spirit of Antichrist.

Yes Jay, I am sure of these facts.


ST, it is very easy to show that the Old Testament Prophets disagree with your understanding of the transgress of the Israelite nation. I am sure that the readers of this post have the means to verify this fact for themselves.

The Old Testament Prophets tell us that it is the continual adulterous behaviour of both the fathers during the first two ages of the existence of the Israelite nation and that of their children and their children's children, during the two ages of the visitation of the iniquities of their fathers upon their children and the children's children, that is considered to be the transgression being referenced in Daniel 9:24. The transgression you are claiming was also the claim of the anti sematic early church who accused the Jewish people of "Killing their Christ" and as such the Jewish people should be hounded and driven out of their towns and villages and even killed. This was even true of many of the leaders of the Reformation.

The Jewish people did not reject Christ during His first advent. Who they actually rejected was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they did this by orchestrating the killing of Jesus, God's Son, whom they did not acknowledge as being their Messiah because He did not come to liberate them at that time from the tribulation of the Roman Empire. This was foretold in the Book of Isaiah.

Again your expressed views do not line up with scripture.

Have a good day now.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:35 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST, it is very easy to show that the Old Testament Prophets disagree with your understanding of the transgress of the Israelite nation. I am sure that the readers of this post have the means to verify this fact for themselves.

Mathew 23
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.


Jay Ross wrote:The Jewish people did not reject Christ during His first advent. Who they actually rejected was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and they did this by orchestrating the killing of Jesus, God's Son, whom they did not acknowledge as being their Messiah because He did not come to liberate them at that time from the tribulation of the Roman Empire.

Mathew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

How you could possibly think that the Jews Did Not Reject Christ at His first Advent just defies any reasonable explanation Jay.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:45 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The Jewish people did not reject Christ during His first advent.


They Did, of Course Reject the Father Along With Christ. Because they Also rejected the Father, does not mean that they did Not Reject Christ Jay.

What do you think the Spirit of Antichrist is Jay? That spirit is Against God and Against Christ in Every Way.

I hope the following scriptures will prove that to you.


Mathew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone
which the builders rejected
, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Mark 8
29 And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
30 And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected
of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luke 9
20 He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ
of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected
of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

John 12
48 He that rejecteth me
, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken
, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mathew 27
22 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all
say unto him, Let him be crucified.
23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:58 pm

ST,

It seems to me that you have posted scriptures to support your "pet" theory. So be it. However, there are also scripture that tells us that because of Israel's continual adulterous worship that God has chosen to walk contrary to them for a period of two ages and if they repent of their transgression, then He has stated that he will hear their raised voices of repentance and look once more favourably on them and redeem them. For example: -

Matthew 12:39: - But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah

[Matthew 16:4: - An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.

Mark 8:38: - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Now in the four passages that you have loudly quoted in your last post, it was the Elders and Priests and Scribes and Pharisees who did not recognise the authority that Jesus had during His First Advent. It was not all of Israel that rejected Jesus, only the religious elite that did. Sadly they also held sway with many of the Israelites within their nation.

Have a good day, now.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:02 pm

Jay Ross wrote:It seems to me that you have posted scriptures to support your "pet" theory. So be it.

So be it regarding your dismissal of the truth I've shown you Plainly, that you Reject.

Jay Ross wrote: However, there are also scripture that tells us that because of Israel's continual adulterous worship that God has chosen to walk contrary to them for a period of two ages and if they repent of their transgression, then He has stated that he will hear their raised voices of repentance and look once more favourably on them and redeem them. For example:
-Matthew 12:39: - But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah
[Matthew 16:4: - An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.
Mark 8:38: - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."


These scriptures somehow explain what? Not one of the scriptures you have listed address the following...
" if they repent of their transgression, then He has stated that he will hear their raised voices of repentance and look once more favourably on them and redeem them. "
Jay Ross wrote:Now in the four passages that you have loudly quoted in your last post, it was the Elders and Priests and Scribes and Pharisees who did not recognise the authority that Jesus had during His First Advent.



The "Loudly" you presume is for emphasis only...to add color and size helps IMO, but is not intended as yelling.

It's much the Same as Discussions in print in the 18th century, a Word would Commonly be Capitalized to add Emphasis to a given thought.

So, please just accept that I'm not Screaming, Only Emphasizing.

Please, before you criticize those who had discussions in the 18th century, just please let them alone, I've only mentioned them regarding their Manner of Writing.

Jay Ross wrote: It was not all of Israel that rejected Jesus, only the religious elite that did. Sadly they also held sway with many of the Israelites within their nation.


shorttribber wrote:Mathew 2722 Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say
unto him, Let him be crucified.23 And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.25 Then answered all the people
, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.


When I said They, I did mean Primarily the Religious Leaders, Yes, but the text Above Does Make Them ALL Rejecters of Christ also.

There were those who May Not have, But We are not Told of Them Specifically in the scriptures. When the Word "ALL" is used in the scriptures, it is used in a General sense, and not the Absolute sense of course.

But, in the General Sense, they Did ALL Reject Christ, Not just the Religious Elite.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:20 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

. . . Jay, this is not to say you don't have Faith. Surely you do Brother, evidence your intensive studies.


First off, before I get into discussion mode, I would like to thank you for your kind affirmation quoted above.

Now

Going back to a statement you made just before your affirmation you said: -

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Jay, it is obvious you are missing the point of the Book of Hebrews, which is the only Book I intended to use per our previous conversation. However, other Scripture adds to this, the full weight of it confirming what I have been led to believe. And I do believe it with all my heart as I can see it so clearly for the perspective of Scripture being about our need, the many, for Christ, and Him and His work, His need for us out of His great Love, and how He is with us now and will be to a fuller extent in the near future. Discussing this over the years it almost seems to be a matter of Faith, if you believe it you can find many other Scriptures which apply, further confirmation of this Truth.


David, this bolded portion of the above quote is true for any time we go looking for evidence. The Global Warming debate certainly shows that if we believe one side of the proposition, then by faith we will be able to find the necessary "proof" that what we believe is true for either side of the discussion proposition.

Just because we can "find evidence" to back up our theory, that still does not make it right. It could simply means that we are interpreting the scriptures to back up our theory and that we are not letting the scriptures speak for themselves. A trap that we can all fall into without realising it.

Christ came to fulfil the prophecies associated with the doing away with sin, to atone for iniquity and to bring in the means for everlasting righteousness, and in achieving this he also seal up the vision and the associated prophecy, and anointed a most holy place.

Christ, during His first advent, renewed/made like new again the covenant that God had entered into with all of mankind and that through His Grace, all who do/will worship Him and believe or will believe in Him, will have everlasting life.

You may disagree with the last two paragraphs because of your understanding, but the reality is that we are both basically saying that it is through God's Grace and the redemptive power of Christ's split Blood that we will obtain salvation at the time of the Great White Throne Room Judgement when Christ comes on the clouds with all the "righteous" hosts of Heaven to Judge the nations of the earth.

Our final salvation is still in our distant future and it is through our faith that we are recognised as being Righteous at the time of the Great White Throne Room Judgement.

Christ is now our mediator on our behalf before the Lord who has offered up His blood to cover all of mankind's' sin if they believe in Him.

Your understanding is that Christ confirmed a "New Covenant" during His First Advent.

I on the other hand understand that Christ came to fulfil the requirements of the existing Covenant with mankind made way back in our distant past in preparation for the final time of judgement which is still in our distant future.

Many believe that Christ is going to reside on the earth to rule over all of the people of the earth who should worship Him during the Millennium Age. I hold to a different view that Christ will exercise His Dominion over the earth from Heaven as our Mediating Priest during the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age and that He will act during the Little While Period, after the 1,000 years, to bring justice for the world by carrying out the prescribed punishments of the fallen wicked heavenly hosts by casting them into the Lake of First. Firstly he will dispatch the Four sided Beast and the false prophet into the lake and very shortly afterwards Satan will also be dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

It is my view that Hebrew is about Christ role as our new Mediator, as he has replaced Aaron's line of mediating High Priests after their role covering approximately 1,400 years was ended in accordance with the Priestly covenant entered into with Moses after they had rebelled at Mt Sinai, and that Christ's role is in accordance with the Priestly covenant entered into before they rebelled at Mt Sinai. This same covenant is to be made like new again in our near future with the redeemed nation of Israel.

We both view Christ's first advent from very different perspectives, but the outcome that we hold to reflects the other person's views on what will happen in our future, even if the timeline may differ slightly.

Shalom

Jay
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:34 pm

Jay,
Don't you think it possible that the Covenants that you suppose Paul (or whoever you think as the Author of the Book of Hebrews was) has expounded on and you think have Mixed up, or Mixed Together Could be Not Mixed up at all?

This question is similar to what I've asked you before.

Do you think it possible that it may be you, Because of your belief in the Hebrew Roots System of Theology, that is Disregarding very plain Explanations given us regarding the Old and New Covenants in that Wonderful Book of Hebrews?

Could you be Disregarding those Clear explanations because they simply do not Fit Hebrew Roots Theology?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:24 pm

aaron wrote:Thank you shorttribber, and many others, this thread has really opened my eyes, and also has me digging into the passage word for word very deeply, and I'm enjoying it. :) I've been so busy with work the past week I haven't had too much time to collect my thoughts as I would like to ... but I'd like to continue this discussion if you'd like as I'm able to soon.

Also thank you for bringing the emphasis back to Christ, I sometimes get so tied up with trying to get the verse understood that I forget the big picture and so I must pause, smile and think ahead to the blessed hope that is ours in Christ ... eternity with Jesus the King of Kings, even so come quickly Lord Jesus!


Hi aaron,
Not sure if you ever saw a certain thread that I started a year or so ago, but I think you may find this interesting.
First the link is...[the thread is called "Parallel Passages Confirm Truth"]
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=70166
Please check it out when you have time, but I just wanted to provide a small sample of it here.......

Please take notice of some very Key Words.....

Daniel 9:27

And he shall confirm the covenant ............with MANY........... for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause .........the sacrifice......... and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Verse 27 is the Last Verse of Daniel 9

Hebrews 9:28

So Christ was........... once offered........... to bear the sins ..........of MANY;......... and unto them that look for him shall he ..........APPEAR the second time.......... without sin unto salvation.

Verse 28 is the Last Verse of Hebrews 9

The First time Christ... APPEARED,.. He Confirmed The Covenant Made by Promise unto the Fathers and Divided the 70th week in the Midst...........
And to Them that Look for him shall He... APPEAR... and Confirm his Power and Inheritance IN Preparing for himself a Bride Without Spot or Wrinkle or ANY Such THING ( Without Sin ).... UNTO and Utterly Delivered (Salvation)from the Power of SIN in this World.

So.........as far as it looks to me........Hebrews 9:28 follows Daniel 9:27 in a very interesting way.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:48 pm

shorttribber wrote:Jay,
Don't you think it possible that the Covenants that you suppose Paul (or whoever you think as the Author of the Book of Hebrews was) has expounded on and you think have Mixed up, or Mixed Together Could be Not Mixed up at all?

This question is similar to what I've asked you before.

Do you think it possible that it may be you, Because of your belief in the Hebrew Roots System of Theology, that is Disregarding very plain Explanations given us regarding the Old and New Covenants in that Wonderful Book of Hebrews?

Could you be Disregarding those Clear explanations because they simply do not Fit Hebrew Roots Theology?


ST, I have one particular collection of articles concerning the law and the Covenants that was/is on their web site, but I also detected that they have the same type of issues as you do with their understanding of the scriptures. I even came to a similar conclusion that they have a number of errors like you do in their presented position/understanding.

There is a core of understanding that I am happy to accept from what they present but I have to admit that there is a core of understanding in what you also write that I can accept without issue. But that does not make either you or the Hebrew Roots Movement the bearer of great understanding. But then I have discerned that I am not the only one who disagrees with some of the things that you write.

I am just happy that I can agree with what is recorded of what my brother understood and taught. It is even more reliable than what you or I or the Hebrew Roots Movement writes but can take a while to get ones laughing matter around.

Have a good day now.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:04 am

shorttribber wrote:Jay,Don't you think it possible that the Covenants that you suppose Paul (or whoever you think as the Author of the Book of Hebrews was) has expounded on and you think have Mixed up, or Mixed Together Could be Not Mixed up at all?This question is similar to what I've asked you before.

Do you think it possible that it may be you, Because of your belief in the Hebrew Roots System of Theology, that is Disregarding very plain Explanations given us regarding the Old and New Covenants in that Wonderful Book of Hebrews?

Could you be Disregarding those Clear explanations because they simply do not Fit Hebrew Roots Theology?


Jay Ross wrote:ST, I have one particular collection of articles concerning the law and the Covenants that was/is on their web site, but I also detected that they have the same type of issues as you do with their understanding of the scriptures. I even came to a similar conclusion that they have a number of errors like you do in their presented position/understanding.

It's you that are in one accord with their errors Jay, not me. Please stick to the point.
Jay Ross wrote:There is a core of understanding that I am happy to accept from what they present but I have to admit that there is a core of understanding in what you also write that I can accept without issue.

Answer the question please, regarding those covenants, and why you should so happily accept their misconceptions that are in such Blatant Disagreement with the Book of Hebrews.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:56 am

Jay Ross wrote:David, this bolded portion of the above quote is true for any time we go looking for evidence. The Global Warming debate certainly shows that if we believe one side of the proposition, then by faith we will be able to find the necessary "proof" that what we believe is true for either side of the discussion proposition.

Just because we can "find evidence" to back up our theory, that still does not make it right. It could simply means that we are interpreting the scriptures to back up our theory and that we are not letting the scriptures speak for themselves. A trap that we can all fall into without realising it.


Jay, this discussion is not about any "man's theory". Rather it is about what is "revealed 'in' the Word of God". As I said before, I was debating my opposition to my present belief when the Word sunk in, which I had been seeking evidence against, and then I knew what was meant to be discovered, as 'evidence revealed'. I believe you know this to be true ...

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1Co 2:9 ¶ But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


These Truths are freely given because we search for them with a pure heart, not to provide evidence of any man's theory, nor mine. Sure we can find what we believe to be the evidence of Truth, and believe we have knowledge of Prophecy through our studies, but it is also written ...

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Christ came to fulfil the prophecies associated with the doing away with sin, to atone for iniquity and to bring in the means for everlasting righteousness, and in achieving this he also seal up the vision and the associated prophecy, and anointed a most holy place.

Christ, during His first advent, renewed/made like new again the covenant that God had entered into with all of mankind and that through His Grace, all who do/will worship Him and believe or will believe in Him, will have everlasting life.

You may disagree with the last two paragraphs because of your understanding, but the reality is that we are both basically saying that it is through God's Grace and the redemptive power of Christ's split Blood that we will obtain salvation at the time of the Great White Throne Room Judgement when Christ comes on the clouds with all the "righteous" hosts of Heaven to Judge the nations of the earth.


Jay, Brother, I absolutely do not disagree with those beautiful paragraphs you have written, for they are written in the Scriptures, the very ones we are discussing. However, Scripture has stated once we believe, we are saved, Salvation is ours by the Gift of Grace through Faith.

Our final salvation is still in our distant future and it is through our faith that we are recognised as being Righteous at the time of the Great White Throne Room Judgement.

Christ is now our mediator on our behalf before the Lord who has offered up His blood to cover all of mankind's' sin if they believe in Him.

Your understanding is that Christ confirmed a "New Covenant" during His First Advent.


I don't believe any of us will be recognized as righteous by the Faith we now hold. Rather it is by Grace, and our Faith in Christ as our Savior, that HIS Righteousness is imparted to us, and HIS Blood that has covered us and washed us clean. We can do nothing by ourselves, rather it is the Power of His Spirit in us that we do His Will until our final Redemption from this body of death.

My belief is Christ confirmed the Covenant of the Law in His first advent, in which was hidden the mystery of the Covenant of Grace, a further revelation by God of His great Redemptive plan for us, the covering Covenant if you will, and there is still more to come. We will see it ourselves, can 'see' it now if we so choose. I believe there is only one Covenant in which is contained any other revealed and confirmed Covenant to our ultimate Salvation.

I on the other hand understand that Christ came to fulfil the requirements of the existing Covenant with mankind made way back in our distant past in preparation for the final time of judgement which is still in our distant future.


I fully agree. Our difference is I believe every Covenant made by God with man is a further revelation of how HE is going to achieve this. It appears you hold to a belief of many separate Covenants apparently which do not relate to each other. Is this correct ?

Many believe that Christ is going to reside on the earth to rule over all of the people of the earth who should worship Him during the Millennium Age. I hold to a different view that Christ will exercise His Dominion over the earth from Heaven as our Mediating Priest during the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age and that He will act during the Little While Period, after the 1,000 years, to bring justice for the world by carrying out the prescribed punishments of the fallen wicked heavenly hosts by casting them into the Lake of First. Firstly he will dispatch the Four sided Beast and the false prophet into the lake and very shortly afterwards Satan will also be dispatched into the Lake of Fire.


Many believe Christ will be here on Earth for the Millennium because that is what the Scriptures state...

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

We need to have a separate discussion on this.

It is my view that Hebrew is about Christ role as our new Mediator, as he has replaced Aaron's line of mediating High Priests after their role covering approximately 1,400 years was ended in accordance with the Priestly covenant entered into with Moses after they had rebelled at Mt Sinai, and that Christ's role is in accordance with the Priestly covenant entered into before they rebelled at Mt Sinai....


The Hebrews rebelled because they could not accept then what is going to come about in our near future, thus the need for the line of Priests through Aaron. They were all to be a Nation of Holy Priests and Teachers, our Father wanted them to be this to be an example and teacher to the world. But they would not in their ignorance and disbelief. Thus came about the Law by which they were to live, and they could not do that either. Fortunately for them, and us, the Law pointed to Christ as Messiah to them and Savior to the world. See, here is the mystery. Believers in Christ have Salvation now, Jews are still under the Law in that disbelief. All others are subject to Judgement in their ignorance. That includes all the Gentiles who are His now but do not know it yet, as well as the heathen Gentiles that rebel against Him to their destruction.

This same covenant is to be made like new again in our near future with the redeemed nation of Israel.


Yes Jay, I agree. The Covenant of Grace will be revealed to them, just as it is written. Then they will be what the Lord intended for them, each of them, Priests and Teachers to the world, for the Millennium. As will we who believe, although the manner of our function will be different.

We both view Christ's first advent from very different perspectives, but the outcome that we hold to reflects the other person's views on what will happen in our future, even if the timeline may differ slightly.


Not too much differently. I just see the mystery in the Covenant of the Grace hidden in the Prophecy provided in Daniel 9:24-27 and revealed after Christ was Crucified to fulfill the Covenant of the Law, and that this is what the Prophets reveal. I am praying that through our discussion you and others will see this too.

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:51 am

shorttribber wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Jay,Don't you think it possible that the Covenants that you suppose Paul (or whoever you think as the Author of the Book of Hebrews was) has expounded on and you think have Mixed up, or Mixed Together Could be Not Mixed up at all?This question is similar to what I've asked you before.

Do you think it possible that it may be you, Because of your belief in the Hebrew Roots System of Theology, that is Disregarding very plain Explanations given us regarding the Old and New Covenants in that Wonderful Book of Hebrews?

Could you be Disregarding those Clear explanations because they simply do not Fit Hebrew Roots Theology?


Jay Ross wrote:ST, I have one particular collection of articles concerning the law and the Covenants that was/is on their web site, but I also detected that they have the same type of issues as you do with their understanding of the scriptures. I even came to a similar conclusion that they have a number of errors like you do in their presented position/understanding.

It's you that are in one accord with their errors Jay, not me. Please stick to the point.
Jay Ross wrote:There is a core of understanding that I am happy to accept from what they present but I have to admit that there is a core of understanding in what you also write that I can accept without issue.

Answer the question please, regarding those covenants, and why you should so happily accept their misconceptions that are in such Blatant Disagreement with the Book of Hebrews.


ST

Perhaps it is you who needs to answer the following: - "Is everything that the Hebrew Roots Movement present in error?"
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:27 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Jay, this discussion is not about any "man's theory". Rather it is about what is "revealed 'in' the Word of God".


That is true, David, but there is one who wants to make it about "man's theory" and he keeps nipping at my heel to distract readers to his "theory" and not to what God is revealing in our discussion between you and me.

Exit40 wrote:,snip>

These Truths are freely given because we search for them with a pure heart, not to provide evidence of any man's theory, nor mine. Sure we can find what we believe to be the evidence of Truth, and believe we have knowledge of Prophecy through our studies, but it is also written ...

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


Yes David, it is good when knowledgeable people who have understanding weigh the words that we bring.

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Jay, Brother, I absolutely do not disagree with those beautiful paragraphs you have written, for they are written in the Scriptures, the very ones we are discussing. However, Scripture has stated once we believe, we are saved, Salvation is ours by the Gift of Grace through Faith.

True, but Christ also stated that we can lose our salvation if we offend the Spirit.

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

I fully agree. Our difference is I believe every Covenant made by God with man is a further revelation of how HE is going to achieve this. It appears you hold to a belief of many separate Covenants apparently which do not relate to each other. Is this correct ?

No David, I do not hold to that position of "Many Covenants, . . . which do not relate to each other."

My view is that there is one God given Covenant that covers the salvation of all of Mankind, however this covenant is surrounded/been added too, with many other prophetic words and "covenants," that tells us the "means", to this end, as well as prophetic words/covenants endorsing/confirming the reliability of the original covenant.

Our discussion started around whether or not Daniel 9:27a is a covenant that has been entered into, either, as you are suggesting, confirmed, by Christ or by Satan.

We both have presented our arguments as to why we believe our held respective positions are correct. So far we have not had "reliable saints" who have come forward to either confirm or reject our respective positions.

To this end please allow me to present the following scriptures in support of why I tend to hold to the position that Christ came to fulfil the Covenant and the prophetic words of God: -

Matthew 1:22: - All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:
Matthew 2:15: - and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt have I called my son."
Matthew 3:15: - But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness." Then he consented.
Matthew 5:17: - "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Matthew 8:17: - This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah, "He took our infirmities and bore our diseases."
Matthew 12:17: - This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah:
Matthew 13:35: - This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
Matthew 21:4: - This took place to fulfil[/b] what was spoken by the prophet, saying,
Luke 21:22: - for these are days of vengeance, to fulfil[/b] all that is written.
John 15:25: - It is to fulfil[/b] the word that is written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'
John 18:9: - This was to fulfil[/b] the word which he had spoken, "Of those whom thou gavest me I lost not one."
John 18:32: - This was to fulfil[/b] the word which Jesus had spoken to show by what death he was to die.
John 19:24: - so they said to one another, "Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be." This was to fulfil the scripture,
"They parted my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots."
John 19:28: - After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), "I thirst."


Exit40 wrote:<snip>

Many believe Christ will be here on Earth for the Millennium because that is what the Scriptures state...

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

We need to have a separate discussion on this.
David, I am fine with having this discussion if needed in another thread, however, the Zec 14:4 reference that you have offered up as proof for your position can be fulfilled in a pica second for it to be true. The other issue is that I am of the view that this is a distant future event which will occur during the little while period of the Millennium Age.

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

This same covenant is to be made like new again in our near future with the redeemed nation of Israel.


Yes Jay, I agree. The Covenant of Grace will be revealed to them, just as it is written. Then they will be what the Lord intended for them, each of them, Priests and Teachers to the world, for the Millennium. As will we who believe, although the manner of our function will be different.

We both view Christ's first advent from very different perspectives, but the outcome that we hold to reflects the other person's views on what will happen in our future, even if the timeline may differ slightly.


Not too much differently. <snip>

David


David, this discussion between us has been good.

Shalom

Jay

PS: - David, from a legal perspective, if I fulfil the obligations of a covenantal agreement, then I have also confirmed the original covenantal agreement by my actions and further bind myself to that covenantal agreement.

The same can be also argued with God's covenant of Salvation with mankind. Christ's action in fulfilling Daniel 9:24 has confirmed the original covenant that God has with all of mankind for our respective salvation.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps it is you who needs to answer the following: - "Is everything that the Hebrew Roots Movement present in error?"

Perhaps you should answer the single question I asked of you . I will not spend untold hours examining Everything They present to give you that answer Jay.
Jay Ross wrote:That is true, David, but there is one who wants to make it about "man's theory" and he keeps nipping at my heel to distract readers to his "theory" and not to what God is revealing in our discussion between you and me.

Haven't made it about "man's " theory Jay. Prove that I have instead of making such an insult ok?
The Charge of "nipping at your heals to Distract Readers" is another Insulting Stab at me because you are Unable to Answer with Real Evidence from Scripture to Support your Faulty Hebrew Roots Doctrine, and I have Exposed That.

Jay Ross wrote:We both have presented our arguments as to why we believe our held respective positions are correct. So far we have not had "reliable saints" who have come forward to either confirm or reject our respective positions.

Are all others that have joined in this thread "Unreliable Saints" Jay ?

How about discussing evidence from scripture rather than Insulting everybody ?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:20 pm

Jay,
It seems that there sometimes is a pattern that follows your interaction on many threads in the past, and I hope this thread does not come to and end after that pattern.
If that should occur, I hope that you could offer aaron a brief apology, since it really Began as a Good Thread, and I think that your personal insults have become somewhat noticeable.

Thus far, I have been direct, but not insulting. I would hope you could adjust your manner of debate for the benefit of this forum.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:01 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps it is you who needs to answer the following: - "Is everything that the Hebrew Roots Movement present in error?"

Perhaps you should answer the single question I asked of you .


In response to your previous question to which I had given my apologetic response in a previous post, the simple is no.

shorttribber wrote:I will not spend untold hours examining Everything They present to give you that answer Jay.


If you have read the Hebrew Roots Movement's understanding of scripture enough to be able to "bag it" as being in error, then in your examination of their material, did you also read portions of what they present where you would also agree with that portion of their presented material.

It is a simple response ST based on your previous reading of their material to establish that they were in error, "Did they present material that you would agree with?" If your answer is YES, you did previously read material that you agreed with, then the answer to my very simple question is, "NO," not everything that the Hebrew Roots Movement presents is in error.

The ball is now firmly in your court now
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:15 pm

i don't think the ball is in my court...
You still owe Us, who are joining in this thread, a real apology because of your insults.

Jay Ross wrote: So far we have not had "reliable saints" who have come forward to either confirm or reject our respective positions.


A reminder of One of your insults.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:03 pm

I'm thinking it may be time to give this thread a rest. I'm going to close it for now but am willing to reopen it down the road if it's requested. I'd also suggest shorter posts that make it easier to follow
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:28 am

Carry on, good Bereans! (minus the personal attacks and insults, please) :wink:
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:48 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Carry on, good Bereans! (minus the personal attacks and insults, please) :wink:


:hugs:

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:28 am

Jay Ross wrote:David, this discussion between us has been good.

Shalom

Jay

PS: - David, from a legal perspective, if I fulfil the obligations of a covenantal agreement, then I have also confirmed the original covenantal agreement by my actions and further bind myself to that covenantal agreement.

The same can be also argued with God's covenant of Salvation with mankind. Christ's action in fulfilling Daniel 9:24 has confirmed the original covenant that God has with all of mankind for our respective salvation.


I understand what you are saying, but I would put God's Covenant before any man's attempt to try even write one up. Of all the things God is, He is Faithful to say the least to keep His Covenants, even when we can't, or won't.

So, I can present more Scripture I believe points out the Daniel 9:27a Covenant is the Covenant Christ Confirmed, the one Daniel was praying over earlier in the Chapter. Which by the way provided enough context to take it that way literally, if one had never heard another concept of who the 'He' is in vs 27. But at this point I think I will ask you to expound on the Scriptures in your following quote, and how they prove your assessment of who 'He' is. Also, it is necessary for you to show with other Scripture how it is that satan enters into a solemn covenant, and what is in this covenant including the terms of peace, regardless which time period you place it in ...

The bible speaks of the Gospel message being given until the "ends" of the earth, time wise, so yes, people will seek God's terms of peace right up and until the end of the Millennium Age. However, after the end of the first 1,000 years, when Satan is released for a little while period, a time of great falling away will also begin with Satan going out to deceive all the nations of the earth by initially deceivingly entering into a solemn covenant with many people which he will then break when he enters the Holy Place, Jerusalem and then goes about establishing himself as the deity that all the people of the earth should worship. In Luke 19 and Matthew 25 it tells us that Satan goes away for a time, i.e. when he is locked up in the bottomless pit, and that when he comes back, i.e. released from the bottomless pit, he purposely sets about reaping a harvest he did not tend and that he did not scatter the seeds for that harvest. After he has "received his harvest" he gives the following command in Luke 19:27: - But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me." This is the Great Tribulation, that Jesus spoke about in Matthew 24


God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Jay Ross wrote:If you have read the Hebrew Roots Movement's understanding of scripture enough to be able to "bag it" as being in error


Has anyone ever done a very detailed study in the Hebrew Roots Movement?

This is a very, very FALSE and very DANGEROUS Doctrine!

I am very surprised that this very False Doctrine - (which by the standards of Scripture is no Doctrine at ALL!) Is being allowed to be represented on this Forum.

Sometime ago, a member of this Board posted this very informative Video on the Hebrew Roots Moment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpbaK3ePENg
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:00 pm

i agree Mr. B., it is not doctrinally sound at all. Even if there are some Parts that could be supported, for the most part it should be strongly avoided.

One person (Monte Judah of Lion and Lamb Ministries) who is a strong supporter of that movement has come out very greatly against the Book of Hebrews, and has claimed that it should not be Bible Canon. :faint:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:26 pm

shorttribber wrote:it is not doctrinally sound at all. Even if there are some Parts that could be supported


One of the most canniest FORMS of DECEPTIONAL type tactics in order to totally mislead people, is to have an element of Truth to the words in it.

Here are some Scriptures for reminders:

Romans 16:17-18 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

17) Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. 18) For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.


And:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

3) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4) and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


Here is the 2nd half of that Sermon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi6xgBcCVwc
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