A covenant with many

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A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:08 pm

On another thread, I was looking through Daniel 9, and wanted to get into this, but didn't want to try to steer the thread away from the topic so I started a new thread. I'm studying current events in relation to Bible prophecy, and those current events have me considering four options regarding the covenant with many in Dan. 9:

1. Antichrist is American who sets himself up in Jerusalem, seen as a leader, friend to Israel, confirms a covenant ... then breaks it.

2. Antichrist is European, from a revived Roman empire, does same as No. 1.

3. Antichrist is Islamic, risen to power through global conquest of Islam, forced Israel's hand to accept covenant .. breaks it.

4. Antichrist is Jewish, achieves power through covenants with surrounding nations, perhaps Israel survives a war with Islamic nations .. antichrist confirms a covenant ... then breaks it.

I think option #1 is the most far fetched, option 2 also far fetched as Europe is getting overrun by Muslim migrants and is weakening in the global sphere of influence. That makes option 3 the most logical to me at this point in time, Islam rising across many nations and prepared to take control of nations too weak to confront it, and option 4 would need some kind of intervention, perhaps a Psalm 83 type war or Ezekiel 38 war at the beginning of the seven 7 weeks instead of at the end.

Option 4 also intrigues me. This covenant with many is so often referred to as a seven year peace treaty ... but a covenant with many could be something vastly different than a peace deal ... meaning we need to be careful to study and be prepared for what lies ahead.

Please see the following definition of covenant, and offer any additional insights into what a covenant with many could be. One other thought ... note the Jewish origin and meaning of covenant, and how that could sway the argument from the antichrist from being Islamic to Jewish.

God bless
aaron

cov·e·nant
ˈkəvənənt/Submit
noun
noun: covenant; plural noun: covenants
1.
an agreement.
synonyms: contract, agreement, undertaking, commitment, guarantee, warrant, pledge, promise, bond, indenture; More
LAW
a contract drawn up by deed.
synonyms: contract, agreement, undertaking, commitment, guarantee, warrant, pledge, promise, bond, indenture; More
LAW
a clause in a contract.
THEOLOGY
an agreement that brings about a relationship of commitment between God and his people. The Jewish faith is based on the biblical covenants made with Abraham, Moses, and David.
verb
verb: covenant; 3rd person present: covenants; past tense: covenanted; past participle: covenanted; gerund or present participle: covenanting
1.
agree, especially by lease, deed, or other legal contract.
"the landlord covenants to repair the property"
synonyms: undertake, contract, guarantee, pledge, promise, agree, engage, warrant, commit oneself, bind oneself
"the landlord covenants to repair the property"
Origin

Middle English: from Old French, present participle of covenir ‘agree,’ from Latin convenire (see convene).

Ref: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... q=covenant
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:01 pm

Can I suggest to you another option?

That the "he" in Daniel 9:27 does Not refer to Any future antichrist.


That the "He" of Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ, and it's the Abrahamic Covenant that is Confirmed with many.

Have you ever considered that?
Or have you heard of that and just said no to that idea?
If you have, what are your reasons?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:40 pm

Dan 9 states that the covenant is confirmed or strengthened for 1 seven. In Christ, God makes a New Covenant with Israel, He does not strengthen the Old Covenant- 'The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel...it will not be like the Covenant I made with their forefathers...' By calling this covenant new, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear... ' Hebrews 8.

Christ did not strengthen the Old Covenant, and He did not make any covenant for only 7 years.

But the Old Covenant was to be read, in essence reinforced, to the people every 7 years, as stated by Moses in Deut 31- 'At the end of every 7 years..during the feast of Tabernacle, when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God..you shall read this law before them in their hearing..so they can listen and learn to fear the Lord....their children, who don not know this law, must hear it and learn to fear the Lord....'

Deut 31 does depict the Covenant (the Old Covenant) being confirmed or strengthened (being read before those who have not heard it before) with the many (all Israel), for one 7 (every 7 years).

Scripture interprets scripture.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:48 pm

And from Deut 31, the ones who were to read or confirm the covenant every 7 years were to be the Levites, the priestly tribe, Hebrew men. Many Levites could be involved in the reading not just one individual, so several could be described as confirming the covenant with the many. One with evil intent could be hidden until the time of 'revealing'. 2 Thess 2.

IMO, the AC being of Hebrew descent appears to be more likely than the other possibilities.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:06 am

1whowaits wrote:Christ did not strengthen the Old Covenant

Correct, I did not say he did.
I said he strengthened(Caused to Prevail) the Abrahamic Covenant,

Have you learned the Difference between the two of them 1WW?

If you have, why do you keep saying the same thing over and over again?
1whowaits wrote: and He did not make any covenant for only 7 years.

I didn't say that either did I?

Why do you intentionally say that over and over again also?

Have I ever, Ever said that Christ MAKES a Seven Year Covenant?

If I have said that in my time on the forum, please show us where?

I am now getting sick and tired of Biblical Evidence being misrepresented, intentionally.

It Is intentional isn't it?

You Know that I have not said that, correct?

I would like to have Evidence Honestly Examined, and that is not possible when Evidence is Intentionally Mislabeled or Mishandled.

That is blunt, but it would be appropriate for any of us to knowingly and intentionally argue against what a person Actually Says, and not a False representation of what another says.

Let us Each Have a Chance to Examine Real Evidence.

That's what God Wants, Real Evidence Revealed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:08 am

aaron

It is my view that Daniel 9:27 is still very much a very distant future event that will not occur for around 1,000 plus years.

There is a school of thought held by a number of "scholars" that the "He" in Daniel 9:27a is Christ, however, between Daniel 9:26a, where we are told that an anointed one, "Christ," is cut off and have nothing, and the ending of Daniel 9:26b is a period of around 2,000 or so years until when the war in Heaven Ends and Satan and his fallen heavenly hosts buddies are thrown out of heaven down to the earth to be imprisoned for 1,000 years before they are let loose for a little while period. It is during this little while period that all of Daniel 9:27 comes into play for the one week of years, namely 7 years.

To attempt to identify who the "he" of Daniel 9:27a, is so far into our future will only prove to be fruitless as we do not know who the world players will be at that time.

God has more important things for us "Christians" to be doing with our time.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby kirthril on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:26 am

Two things to also consider.

Not a single time are the words "peace" and "covenant" together. That is a huge assumption that there will be a "peace treaty". Bible says no such thing, simply a covenant which is strengthened.

Not a single time does the words "breaks the covenant" appear together. That is also a huge assumption that the AC will "break" the covenant. Bible says no such thing, only that he invades, puts an end to sacrifice and grain offerings, wars against the saints. We actually don't know what the covenant pertains to (we can guess). (it very well be that it is Israel that breaks a covenant and the AC is simply enacting retaliatory measures.....) :dunno:
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:36 am

kirthril wrote:Not a single time does the words "breaks the covenant" appear together. That is also a huge assumption that the AC will "break" the covenant

True
kirthril wrote: We actually don't know what the covenant pertains to (we can guess).

I disagree here...I don't think we need to guess.
Paul tells us that Christ Confirms the Abrahamic Covenant. The weakest a person could actually Describe such Evidence is by saying that such is a Very Sound Educated Guess.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby kirthril on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:43 am

I disagree here...I don't think we need to guess.
Paul tells us that Christ Confirms the Abrahamic Covenant. The weakest a person could actually Describe such Evidence is by saying that such is a Very Sound Educated Guess.

I was thinking if should have addressed that but decided not to. I was hoping y'all would see I was referring to just a "ac confirms covenant" theory. Not the "Christ covenant" belief.

But yeah, if anyone believes in "AC will confirm a covenant with many", I was just saying, bible does not ever say "He (the ac) breaks it".

Me personally, I teeter between the two. Both a plausible, which ever one is correct matters not much to me, as like you I believe in a short trib, everything goes down starting with 3.5yrs left. We are to be looking more for the potential AoD and the forming of an alliance more so than a treaty (of which are made and broken constantly).
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:58 am

kirthril wrote:
I disagree here...I don't think we need to guess.
Paul tells us that Christ Confirms the Abrahamic Covenant. The weakest a person could actually Describe such Evidence is by saying that such is a Very Sound Educated Guess.

I was thinking if should have addressed that but decided not to. I was hoping y'all would see I was referring to just a "ac confirms covenant" theory. Not the "Christ covenant" belief.

But yeah, if anyone believes in "AC will confirm a covenant with many", I was just saying, bible does not ever say "He (the ac) breaks it".

Me personally, I teeter between the two. Both a plausible, which ever one is correct matters not much to me, as like you I believe in a short trib, everything goes down starting with 3.5yrs left. We are to be looking more for the potential AoD and the forming of an alliance more so than a treaty (of which are made and broken constantly).

Super post :a3:

I knew you were a Possible if not actual shorttribber. The only reason I framed the answer as I did was to show that I disagreed with the Object of that Covenant being a Meer Guess on any shorttribbers part.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:02 pm

shorttribber wrote: Both a plausible, which ever one is correct matters not much to me, as like you I believe in a short trib,


I think it should matter though kirt, and not just a little.
Starting a thread on this subject of, the reasons it should matter, could be in order...think I will do that later
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:21 pm

Now, to be fair aaron, and those with a future seven year opinion, there is Evidence for that idea also.

That Evidence is clearly found in the text of Dan 9 also. Evidence is also found in a couple of ancient writings such as Hippolytus and Ireneaus ...possible spelling errors in names.

We need to learn to acknowledge Real Evidence, even if we disagree with it. There ARE Solid Reasons, due to sentence structure, to see the "he" in verse27 as antichrist, it is the most common grammatical structure.

There is also a grammatical structure (Hebraic Chiastic) that is less common in some ways, but very common among prophetic writings that lends more Evidence to Support the "He" as Christ.
It also is not necessary that the common grammatical rule be strictly followed either that I first spoke of. There are many examples I could easily site...even from the previous chapters in Daniel.

Why do I say this?

Because it is important to put ALL Evidence, Completely and Fairly Represented, on the Table in Plain View for a Fair Examination OF IT.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:13 pm

ST

I am one who has questioned your "theory" from the time that I joined this forum and my opinion has not changed because your evidence is construed to support your theory.

The second reason is that if your theory falls over because of your claimed dates for its fulfilment, you claim that your theory is not wrong because it can happen at any time. In other words your are having two bob bet either way on the outcome. That means in a two horse race, which you have made it, you "win" no matter what the outcome is, you always get your money back with perhaps a little egg on your face, but that is no big deal for you..

Now I am a patient man and if we wait for your preannounced fulfilment to materialise will the other horses/theories have a chance of being heard over the volume of your claims of understanding the scriptures and what is written in them.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:41 pm

Jay Ross wrote: In other words your are having two bob bet either way on the outcome. That means in a two horse race, which you have made it, you "win" no matter what the outcome is

:banana: :award: :banana:
Jay Ross wrote:you always get your money back with perhaps a little egg on your face, but that is no big deal for you..

Right, no big deal.
I'm not interested in "Keeping up Appearances", as long as Truth is Revealed.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:10 pm

That the "He" of Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ, and it's the Abrahamic Covenant that is Confirmed with many.


I haven't considered that option shorttribber, as I've studied the actions of the antichrist as all being linked with one person who ultimately finds themselves in the lake of fire. For your option to really be a contender, I would think knowing the 'He' is referring to Christ or the antichrist needs to be established.

When I back up to vs. 26, the 'and' beginning each statement (looks like six 'ands') connect the thought into one, as I understand it. There is a direct reference to Messiah, but the 'he' in question is lowercase and appears not to refer to the Messiah but someone else.

I'm not saying your view is impossible to me, I don't connect the dots, and I looked up the word in the Strong's concordance cross ref. with King James and can't draw a definition of the word 'he', which would settle it to me.

Interesting little study you've sent me on here ...
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:24 pm

Dan 9 states that the covenant is confirmed or strengthened for 1 seven. In Christ, God makes a New Covenant with Israel, He does not strengthen the Old Covenant- 'The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel...it will not be like the Covenant I made with their forefathers...' By calling this covenant new, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear... ' Hebrews 8.


It was great reading DT. 31 alongside this portion of Scripture, 1whowaits. Your take on things reminds of something Christ said in Matt. 24:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The 'whoso readeth, let him understand' was brought to remembrance, and this reading of the covenant in DT. 31 would be brought to remembrance of a Jewish person reading Daniel. All this to say, I think your direction is valid, I always love it when Scripture is linked together like a chain and knowing the history of the Jewish/Israeli people is a huge bonus when reading the OT. I wish I was more well versed, not so much in Jewish traditions, but the historical side adding richness to the Word.

I do however don't fully understand how a Jewish/Israeli antichrist can come to power without other nations supporting, and without the Islamic problem addressed.

... and 'confirm the covenant' is written almost as if it's meant to be easily understood by those who know the meaning. not the 'sign a peace treaty with many nations' as that would make sense to the end time view I've always been taught (the 'Left Behind' view) ... but it always frustrates me when people don't use the words written and subtly change the meaning, hence my frustration with the 'Left Behind' view of a European antichrist.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:37 pm

very good post aaron,
Glad you are willing to make an open search of the text,

aaron wrote:When I back up to vs. 26, the 'and' beginning each statement (looks like six 'ands') connect the thought into one, as I understand it. There is a direct reference to Messiah


Correct....
look here...
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
aaron wrote: but the 'he' in question is lowercase and appears not to refer to the Messiah but someone else.

Is not the Clear reference to Messiah also in Lower Case in verse 26 above?
Why should it then be Changed to Upper Case in the KJV in the very next verse? as it is shown below...
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

aaron wrote:When I back up to vs. 26, the 'and' beginning each statement (looks like six 'ands') connect the thought into one, as I understand it.

Glad you noticed that. The very use of the word "And" is a very common Hebraic Rhythmic word the occurs regularly among Chiastic Writing form.

That IS why That Word "And"is Placed where it is, at the Beginning of verse 27.

aaron wrote:Interesting little study you've sent me on here ...


I will help as much as I can in that process if you wish...I can provide several links to areas I (and others also) have made this point on this subject in several threads ok?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:58 pm

:oldman: oh, I forgot to mention this....
Many people would like to do their investigation into who the "he" in verse 27 is, Without recognizing the Need to Understand the End of the Chapter, by reading the beginning of it Carefully.

Please make sure to do that. There are certain key words (Generally found in the KJV) that will help your Understanding then of verse 27.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:15 am

shorttribber wrote::oldman: oh, I forgot to mention this....
Many people would like to do their investigation into who the "he" in verse 27 is, Without recognizing the Need to Understand the End of the Chapter, by reading the beginning of it Carefully.

Please make sure to do that. There are certain key words (Generally found in the KJV) that will help your Understanding then of verse 27.


Yes ST, reading the whole chapter of Daniel 9 is what provides the context for the major Prophecy at the end, which we discuss continually. It is from this discussion we separately, meaning out of context, come up with the differing paradigms which are out of the context of the whole chapter. Read Daniel's lovely, eloquent and heart felt prayer as if you are writing it your self, over and over if you must, to see what Daniel is asking for. Ask the Lord yourself, what Daniel is asking for. And remember this Promise from the Lord Himself, Ask and it shall Be given. Then you 'may' see what the Prophecy given is meant for, in full context. I hope this discussion continues, and we examine some of the key words that will 'confirm' for us the Truth. For instance, the word 'destroy' in vs 26 if interpreted to say 'corrupt' which is a better understanding, will change your understanding of who the 'people of the Prince that shall come' are, and who this 'He' really is, and why 'His City and Sanctuary' are not destroyed, rather they are hidden from our sight. This chapter is about the sins and iniquities of the Lord's people in His Holy City, over a great period of time, even today and into many tomorrow's. And about the Lord's tender mercies to them, even us, despite their continual disobedience, and corruption. It is about the Lord fulfilling His Promise, to the end, for His own sake, that He will be Glorified. And us in Him through His, our, Christ. Praise the Lord our God, for His Word is True !!! :bowing:

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:58 am

:a3: David...great post
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:42 pm

So David, are you linking Daniel 9:26b with Daniel 8:9-17 where the Sanctuary will be trampled/corrupted for a period of some 2,300 years, in which case the Hebrew word based on the Hebrew Root, H:7843, and presently translated as "shall destroy" could also have been translated as, "shall corrupt" in which case the beginning of the desolation of Jerusalem and the Temple began some time around 250 BC.

The HUB Bible Web site tells us that there are 6 variation of the Hebrew words associated with the Transliterated word "yaš·ḥîṯ" and if we substitute "corrupt" instead of "destroy" in the six scripture verses where "yaš·ḥîṯ" is found the sense of the respective verses is consistent in each case.

The end point for Daniel 8:9-17 is also the same end point for Daniel 9:26b. However, within the context of Daniel 9:26b it also tells us that until the end of the war in heaven from when the flood of the people of the "prince," a fallen heavenly host, who is to come, descends upon Jerusalem and the Temple to destroy it, Jerusalem and the Temple mound will be desolate, which began around 70 AD.

If this is the case, then I see no reason to dispute your observation as it is consistent with the prophecies concerning the Israelite nation, Jerusalem and the Temple Mound. It does highlight that the corruption of a person results in the destruction of that person or in this case an entity.

Shalom.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:44 am

Hi Jay. No I am not linking the Scriptures in this way. You are pointing out they 'are' linked, which indeed they are, so thank you for their mention. Consider within that section Daniel 8:11-12, in particular the portion I have bolded and underlined ...

Dan 8:1 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


You know the story, the history of what happened,and have many sources to show us you are correct in their interpretations. Now consider in vs 11 the 'Prince of the Host' is the 'by Him', Christ Himself, His Crucifixion caused the Daily Sacrifice 'in His Temple and Sanctuary' to cease some 40 years later in 70 AD by them being cast down, destroyed, leaving no place nor people to perform them. Here in vs 12 is the Scripture which states why the Temple and City are destroyed, corruption and transgression committed by the people as described later in 9:26, the High Priests and the whole of the Jews themselves who chose not to believe in the Prince of the Covenant who was there, who is also the Prince who is to come, which is Jesus Himself who is Prophesied to come a second time after the completion of their time of penalty for violating Moses Law, and rejecting the Promised Christ, as part of the Daniel 9:24-27 Prophecy. This time period you have correctly identified as the gentiles trampling the Sanctuary.

If you agree that is what these Scriptures state in Daniel 11 and their reference to chapter 9:26, then can you see it is Christ who is the Prince who is to come, it is His people the Jews who corrupted the Temple and Sanctuary and crucified Him in the midst of the last week, and then can you see in Daniel 9:27 it is Christ who confirms the Covenant for one week, that it is Christ who causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease by His own personal Sacrifice in the midst of the last week, His being 'cut off' ? And further, that it is Christ who makes 'it', the Temple Mount, desolate by reason of corruption and transgression of the people, even unto the consummation of the time period required by the Law ? I believe you stated you agree with at least a potion of this, and if so it becomes easy to see the rest of it.

This is the conjecture of Shorttrib, and that there is no full one week remaining to be completed with it's purported Temple and peace treaty/covenant with an insolent one to be broken in the middle. Rather only the last half remains as it is Christ Himself Who is the subject of the first half from the point of His Anointing at His Baptism until the ending of His three and one half years of His Ministry to His people the Jews which began precisely, concurrently at the beginning of the final seventieth week, with His being cut off in the midst, the precise middle point of that last week, that by His Crucifixion He confirmed the Covenant of God with His people as the Perfect Lamb of God, the Promised Messiah of the Covenant. Consider there is no break in time between the sixty ninth week and the seventieth week, that presently we are still within the midst of that last week with the break in time occurring at Christ's Crucifixion, and which will begin again at the AOD and will proceed for three and one half years from there.

God Bless You

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:47 am

Many people would like to do their investigation into who the "he" in verse 27 is, Without recognizing the Need to Understand the End of the Chapter, by reading the beginning of it Carefully.

Please make sure to do that. There are certain key words (Generally found in the KJV) that will help your Understanding then of verse 27.


I'm looking through Dan. 9 as you suggested, and I can see how you can make a case for vs. 27 referring the Messiah vs. the antichrist.

Earlier in Dan. 9 you see:
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.


the 'and he hath confirmed his words' is very similar to:

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


In vs. 26-27 in particular, there are a couple options:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I added in a couple bold words to contrast the two thoughts. I acknowledge that many Bible commentaries associate the 'he' in vs. 27 with the antichrist, but the more I look at this, the more it makes sense that the 'he' is referred to as the antichrist in order to fit a certain viewpoint of the entire end time scenario.

I started this thread to address the covenant with many as it so often is associated with a seven year peace treaty. I do not feel peaceful at all about this association, and so I'm drawn to conclude that the covenant with many is in fact the covenant from Deuteronomy 31. This would suggest that the covenant is indeed Daniel's seventieth week, and that the confirmation of the covenant with many begins this final seven years, and that the emphasis of this week is on Israel, the restoration of temple worship in Israel, and the focus of this week being what is mentioned earlier in Dan. 9, the full portion of this Scripture posted below. Thanks for sharing your insights shorttribber and 1whowaits, all of us may not be in total agreement with how things play out, but it seems as though we agree on how it starts, as I understand it so far. Perhaps we can continue this discussion as far as how the timeframe unfolds, maybe in another thread as it would go in a different direction, and I see others discussing the covenant with many here, for which I'm thankful. Blessings to all, aaron

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:23 am

aaron wrote:Thanks for sharing your insights shorttribber and 1whowaits, all of us may not be in total agreement with how things play out, but it seems as though we agree on how it starts, as I understand it so far

Hi arron,
Thanx for the kind words. As for how it(tribulation )starts, we are in a great deal of disagreement really. shorttib is seeing the Tribulation, all that remains still in the future as beginning with the AOD, not Any Kind of Agreement, Covenant, Treaty or Reading of the old law of Moses at all.

So as not to send this in another direction toward understanding the "he' as Christ instead of antichrist, we can discuss that elsewhere if you wish...it's your thread.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby aaron on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:30 pm

You're welcome shorttribber, I've been looking through the boards to see if an existing thread already addresses a general discussion of the timeline of Christ's return. I'll keep in touch if nothing fits too. I'm not interested in debating a specific timeframe per se, very interested in studying prophetic Scripture. I'm also very interested in the signs of the times! Keeping watch, aaron :a2:
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:11 pm

David, I purposely did not go on to Daniel 9:27 because I know who the insolent one is who makes a solemn covenant with many but I focused on the interlocking time periods between Daniel 8:9-17 and 9:26b and how they both end as described in Isaiah 24:21-22.

As regards to the ending of the sacrificing for the transgressions of the nation of Israel, that was prophesied in Daniel 9:24 and completely fulfilled by the end of the fourth age of mankind/the end of the second age of the Israelite Nation as Christ's first advent occurred during the first 33 years of the third age of the Israelite Nation during which time He offered God's light yoke of redemption through repentance for their idolatrous rebellion against God, to the nation in the place of the heavy yoke that the Israelite Nation would be under during the next two ages when the visitation of their idolatrous iniquities would come upon them, i.e. during the 3rd and the 4th ages of their existence as a people/nation.

We also know that Christ's death on the Cross was a fulfilment of Daniel 9:24, with the full 70 weeks of years being used up in this one verse prophecy.

Now David in Daniel 9:25 it also speaks of two time periods, i.e. firstly 7 weeks of years, and then secondly a period of 62 weeks of years, when the Temple will be built up again but in a troubled, i.e. idolatrous, times. Daniel 9:25 is also completely fulfilled.

Now Daniel 9:26a speaks about the death of an anointed one, which we have come to understand as being the Messiah, and we are told that He will then have nothing after his death, i.e. He will at this time not be given any dominion to exercise over the peoples of the earth as is also foretold in Daniel 7:13-14. At the time Christ's death on the cross, He does not become the Saviour/Messiah of the Israelite Nation. It is still in our near future to be fulfilled. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that this will happen when the fullness in time of the prophecy over the Heathen Gentiles as contained in Daniel 8:9-17 is fulfilled after which all of Israel will be saved. Daniel 9:26b also overlays the last 2,000 or so years of the Daniel 8:9-17 prophecy over the Heathen Gentiles.

Now with regards to your post: -
Exit40 wrote:Hi Jay. No I am not linking the Scriptures in this way. You are pointing out they 'are' linked, which indeed they are, so thank you for their mention. Consider within that section Daniel 8:11-12, in particular the portion I have bolded and underlined ...

Dan 8:1 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.


Yes David, but English translation gives a slant that is misleading. The prince of the host should read according to the Brown-Driver-Briggs (Reference http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8269.htm ), they suggests that this is a reference to GOD and not to Christ as you are suggesting. Consider the following Quote: -
Daniel 8:8-12: - 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him {the little horn} the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His {God's} sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.


You know the story, the history of what happened, and have many sources to show us you are correct in their interpretations.
David that is true and it can take me many hours of reflection and research on what other people write to frame a rebuttal.

But this I know, the following statement does not line up with the above scriptures:-
If you agree that is what these Scriptures state in Daniel 8:11 and their reference to chapter 9:26, then can you see it is Christ who is the Prince who is to come, it is His people the Jews who corrupted the Temple and Sanctuary and crucified Him in the midst of the last week, and then can you see in Daniel 9:27 it is Christ who confirms the Covenant for one week, that it is Christ who causes the sacrifice and oblation to cease by His own personal Sacrifice in the midst of the last week, His being 'cut off' ? And further, that it is Christ who makes 'it', the Temple Mount, desolate by reason of corruption and transgression of the people, even unto the consummation of the time period required by the Law ? . . .


I believe you stated you agree with at least a portion of this, and if so it becomes easy to see the rest of it.
David, the portion I was in agreement with your post was your suggestion that "corruption" could have been used instead of "destroy" because it is our "corruption" of God's Word that destroys us.

This is the conjecture of Shorttrib, and that there is no full one week remaining to be completed with its purported Temple and peace treaty/covenant with an insolent one to be broken in the middle. Rather only the last half remains as it is Christ Himself Who is the subject of the first half from the point of His Anointing at His Baptism until the ending of His three and one half years of His Ministry to His people the Jews which began precisely, concurrently at the beginning of the final seventieth week, with His being cut off in the midst, the precise middle point of that last week, that by His Crucifixion He confirmed the Covenant of God with His people as the Perfect Lamb of God, the Promised Messiah of the Covenant. Consider there is no break in time between the sixty ninth week and the seventieth week, that presently we are still within the midst of that last week with the break in time occurring at Christ's Crucifixion, and which will begin again at the AOD and will proceed for three and one half years from there.
Yes David, I know that this is ST conjecture/position and your explanation has not swayed me to change my mind.

Ii is the "little horn" of Daniel 8 as quoted above who is the prince/ruler of the people to come and it is this wicked fallen heavenly host who destroys Jerusalem and the Sanctuary by exercising his dominion over the people who came to Jerusalem and the Temple Sanctuary to destroy it.

Now the little horn has his place in heaven among the "Host of Heaven" and he and all of the other wicked fallen heavenly host will be judged in our near future in heaven and cast down to the earth to be imprisoned in the abyss to await their time of punishment.

Now you are right to link the "prince/ruler" of the people who came to destroy Jerusalem and the Sanctuary with the "he" in Daniel 9:27a as the one who enters into a solemn covenant with many, but there is a time gap of 1,000 years between when the war in heaven will be over and the little horn is imprisoned in the Abyss/bottomless pit and when he is released and is able to communicate the words of this solemn covenant that he will enter into with many people.

Daniel 9:24 covers what God required Christ to do and fulfil during His first advent. It is just a happy coincidence that the length of Christ's ministry after He turned 30 is of the order of three and a half years. That from my understanding of what ST writes, is ST's justification for his claim that the insolent one, the little horn, in Daniel 9:27a is instead a reference to "Christ."

St claims that he wants the truth out there, but his words and his posts do not support his stated intent.

Now if people can present a well reasoned justification that my view is "wrong" or in error, then I am more than willing to admit my error on consideration of that post and if "wrong" desist posting on or about the End Times.

But David, this reply to your post is now a tad to long and I should allow time for readers to be able to digest what I have already posted.

Shalom

PS - Apologies aaron, but until we know the time frame of when Daniel 9:27a will occur, any discussion on the "content" of the covenant mentioned in this portion of the verse is only conjecture on our part and will not be edifying for the greater Body of Christ. Sadly, many "theories" exist as to when Daniel 9:27a will occur/has occurred, so in my mind it will not be resolved completely for a number years yet. To put a number on it, let us say 50 years or so if we can understand the signs revealed by then.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:58 pm

aaron wrote:Perhaps we can continue this discussion as far as how the timeframe unfolds


aaron wrote:I see others discussing the covenant with many here


Hi Aaron,

Thank you for brining up this Topic for Discussion.

Let me first say that Shorty and I have debated this topic before on many occasions. I must honestly admit, and very humbly say that I think that he is on to something. I for one have conceded that Jesus has fulfilled 3.5 years of the 70th week, as Scripture appears to bear evidence of this.

Now, in putting all the "Left Behind" series nonsense; "Islamic Paradigm"; "European Antichrist"; or whether or not the coming Antichrist "is Jewish" nonsense - ALL Behind us the question remains what is the TRUTH?

Scripture speaks of a final 3.5 year period - not a final 7 year period, but 70 weeks. This is very important to understand, as it relates to the Subject matter of your Thread. Jesus Himself does not mention a final 7 year period; or the Covenant with Many - but He does mention the A0D - and He refers us back to the Prophet Daniel.

I find this most interesting....and it's because Daniel mentions the A0D; the cessation of the daily sacrifice in conjunction with a 1,290 & 1,335 day period - which obviously exceeds this final 3.5 year period. Ironically NO ONE has been able to figure this Mystery out.

So I ask ALL who are viewing this topic..........What if Daniel 9:27 has ALREADY BEEN FULFILLED?

In closing....... I am suggesting that because the TRUE meaning of the Rapture is a Pre-Wrath Rapture; and at some unknown time period AFTER day 1,290 - but prior to day 1,335 the Rapture will have occurred.

Think about this..............
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:49 pm

aaron wrote:Perhaps we can continue this discussion as far as how the timeframe unfolds

Mr Baldy wrote:In closing....... I am suggesting that because the TRUE meaning of the Rapture is a Pre-Wrath Rapture; and at some unknown time period AFTER day 1,290 - but prior to day 1,335 the Rapture will have occurred. Think about this..............

That's Exactly how I did view it, but I have changed my opinion just slightly...let me explain.

to keep it simple and short.
I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.

After the AOD, there will be at least 1,260 days of great tribulation (Saints still on earth then) , and God's Wrath will be poured out during the following 30 days After That, But Saints Gone Before God Outpours His Wrath during that 30 day period.

In other words, 1,290 days of Great tribulation, but God
"Shortens" "Those Days" to closer to 1,260 for the Saints.



Following is an example of the beauty of Bible Prophecy....I could be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.
imagine this....
The 1,335 days(Year for a Day) prophecy began in (683-687 Exact date/Unknown, Dome of the Rock Construction Began/Planted Tabernacles of the Spirit of Antichrist), and it is then still being currently fulfilled.
The 1,290 day(Literal 24 hour days) Begins this Fall, and "Those Days" come to and End on the Exact Same Day as the 1,335 Ends in 2021 (Probably).


1,335
+ 685?...Edited correction this date is Flexible within about 4 years
(683-687)Construction Began on the Dome of the Rock
2021? (the correction and flexible date could then be closer to 2020-2022)

The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:03 am

Jay Ross wrote:We also know that Christ's death on the Cross was a fulfilment of Daniel 9:24, with the full 70 weeks of years being used up in this one verse prophecy.


Jay, I agree, but only in concept. The following three verses explain what happens within the context of the overview of vs 24. We have to apply numerous other Scriptures to this one Prophecy in order to draw any conclusion whatsoever as it is barely self explanatory. And Scripture witnesses to itself the Truth of this matter. That we disagree is only to show we are being good Bereans and studying the Word of God to see what this Truth is.

Now Daniel 9:26a speaks about the death of an anointed one, which we have come to understand as being the Messiah, and we are told that He will then have nothing after his death, i.e. He will at this time not be given any dominion to exercise over the peoples of the earth as is also foretold in Daniel 7:13-14. At the time Christ's death on the cross, He does not become the Saviour/Messiah of the Israelite Nation. It is still in our near future to be fulfilled. Paul in Romans 11:25-26 tells us that this will happen when the fullness in time of the prophecy over the Heathen Gentiles as contained in Daniel 8:9-17 is fulfilled after which all of Israel will be saved. Daniel 9:26b also overlays the last 2,000 or so years of the Daniel 8:9-17 prophecy over the Heathen Gentiles.


I believe this is not 'an' anointed one, but 'the' anointed one, 'the Promised Messiah and Savior' of the Covenant. He does in fact have dominion, this is what we call Grace, and Judgement within that Grace. That Israel has two ages of Judgement is relevant to the Grace applied to gentiles who come to believe.

Yes David, but English translation gives a slant that is misleading.


Jay, I also have spent the many hours of study with the many Scriptures that can apply to this 70 week Prophecy, including delving into the original Aramaic words. I too was as adamant as you in my acquired understanding. While my argument was somewhat different than yours, I was completely stubborn I held the correct understanding. My present understanding was 'revealed' to me as I argued my position, that word being too adversarial for the actual debate I was in with ST. The best way I can described the 'revelation' is to say, suddenly I saw the forest through the trees. Yet even at that time is was just the beginning of the process of my study, as I did not have the answers to be able to explain what had just happened. Rather, through extensive study I am able to justify in my mind with Scripture what was revealed to my heart. Thus, while my explanations to others may seem to lack a completely cohesive train of thought, I have to accept that this is a difficult Prophecy to understand as we/I tend to work backwards into it based on a paradigm of belief, a particular theory of the process of the end times. I find this Prophecy contains within it all the others, mostly.

But this I know, the following statement does not line up with the above scriptures:-


Yes David, I know that this is ST conjecture/position and your explanation has not swayed me to change my mind.


And then you go on to present your belief of this Scripture, which is very close to that which I believed, until the change in my heart.

Now you are right to link the "prince/ruler" of the people who came to destroy Jerusalem and the Sanctuary with the "he" in Daniel 9:27a as the one who enters into a solemn covenant with many, ... and is able to communicate the words of this solemn covenant that he will enter into with many people.


Jay, this is a misunderstanding on your part of what I believe and have stated. The Prince who is to come 'is Christ', this referring to His second coming, does not enter into a solemn Covenant, He confirms the Covenant, fulfills it as Promised in the Covenant. Here is my issue with your belief. How can all Israel be saved in our near future and yet have to seek terms of peace 1000 or so from now ? Saved is saved, Israel lives in peace already for that time period. This is a portion of the Covenant, life in the Millennium as none of Israel needs to say, know the Lord. They all do already, and are the Priests in the Kingdom for the rest of the world during that time period, at the end of which the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Daniel 9:24 covers what God required Christ to do and fulfil during His first advent. It is just a happy coincidence that the length of Christ's ministry after He turned 30 is of the order of three and a half years. That from my understanding of what ST writes, is ST's justification for his claim that the insolent one, the little horn, in Daniel 9:27a is instead a reference to "Christ."


Yes, an amazing coincidence, isn't it ? Stunning might be a better word, or dazzling, marvelous, lovely, beautiful, great, excellent, exquisite, or the phrase 'Full of Grace'. To my knowledge neither ST nor myself labels as Christ this insolent one you describe. Rather, strenuous study has revealed and confirmed this 'ones' identity properly, without any preconceptions or misunderstandings of other Scriptures applied here.

St claims that he wants the truth out there, but his words and his posts do not support his stated intent.


This is not about ST and what he wants. This is about establishing the Truth, and presenting it properly, for us all to understand correctly.

Now if people can present a well reasoned justification that my view is "wrong" or in error, then I am more than willing to admit my error on consideration of that post and if "wrong" desist posting on or about the End Times.


Jay, this statement is an absolute, and a self imposed threat upon yourself, and these 'people'. There is no need for you to cease and desist your studies on the end times if you receive a corrected view. This is where you run into trouble with others, a well reasoned justification that your view 'is wrong' is a statement of comparable intellects forcing one into another belief. While your intellect and studies are awesome, would another who holds dearly to what they believe is the 'well reasoned' Truth be forced to give up their studies if you out reasoned them ? Of course not Brother. Don't be so hard on others, or yourself. I find the Truth humbles one in a true fashion of the Love of Christ. This is what we seek, so that we may share it. That we have disagreed becomes irrelevant to the joy of understanding.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:43 am

David, excellent response to Jay, imo. As it is said "It is impossible to graft new ideas onto a closed mind" so we must always maintain an open mind and understand that with continued study, we can expect that what we've been taught, or led to understand (think left behind series) is subject to change, and that no one has complete and perfect eschatology. I have learned so much along the way and many of my earlier beliefs have been altered upon additional study and fellowship with others who do the same. There are several elements to my current understanding that I readily know the various "theories" of interpretation to, but have not come to a conclusion with. The fact that I am well versed in the various possibilities is a BIG plus.....As a matter of reference, this thread started with one such element.....the 3 potential derivations of the antichrist....There are some out there who dogmatically look for one or the other without willingness to consider they can be wrong....I, personally, at this time believe the antichrist is most likely coming from the middle east, but am not discounting a Hebrew (Jewish) lineage. I am least likely to believe the European theory.....BUT.....I know the school of thought on each of these derivations, and would rather be open minded than closed...because if my mind is closed, I could miss something very important.....and get myself completely off track. I've learned from past mistakes (and mistakes of others) that dogmatic reasoning is not in my best interest (or anyone else's). The best place to be is an open mind with knowledge of all, but a particular belief leaning one way or another, based in time spent in scripture and fellowship.

Pride is the enemy that causes us to be so extreme in our conversation as to back ourselves into a corner. Repent of it and be free of its snare. I actually purposefully do and say things to ensure that I am not able to be proud, and to force myself to always have to be humbled, human, fallible....not because I hate myself, but because I do not want to come across in a way that makes me stumble or makes another stumble, because they see me as something I am not. Crazy as this sounds, it rather serves a greater purpose.....
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:55 pm

GodsStudent wrote: I could miss something very important


Speaking of missing something very important - keeping "sensationalism and sophistry" in mind, knowing that it absolutely has the potential to skew one's views; here is something very important to review, and consider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTmZHDb_sP8
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:15 pm

David,

If Daniel 8 speaks of a "little horn"/fallen heavenly host in this instance, associated with the Third beast of Daniel 7:1-12 as the one who takes away the daily sacrifices as well as casting down the place of God's sanctuary. Then why is Daniel 9:26b not talking about the same "little horn" beast as depicted in Daniel 8:9-12?

Daniel 8:9-12: - 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted himself as high as the Prince/ruler of the host; and by him {i.e. the "little horn"} the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His {i.e. the prince/ruler of the hosts'}[/i] sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Daniel 9:26b: -And the people of the prince {the little horn}who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.



Exit40 wrote:
Now you are right to link the "prince/ruler" of the people who came to destroy Jerusalem and the Sanctuary with the "he" in Daniel 9:27a as the one who enters into a solemn covenant with many, ... and is able to communicate the words of this solemn covenant that he will enter into with many people.

Jay, this is a misunderstanding on your part of what I believe and have stated. The Prince who is to come 'is Christ', this referring to His second coming, does not enter into a solemn Covenant, He confirms the Covenant, fulfills it as Promised in the Covenant. Here is my issue with your belief. How can all Israel be saved in our near future and yet have to seek terms of peace 1000 or so from now ? Saved is saved, Israel lives in peace already for that time period. This is a portion of the Covenant, life in the Millennium as none of Israel needs to say, know the Lord. They all do already, and are the Priests in the Kingdom for the rest of the world during that time period, at the end of which the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
The reason you are confused is that you believe that the Solemn covenant in Daniel 9:27a is a peace covenant, which I do not agree with and have not called this solemn covenant made with many "a peace covenant".

In Isaiah 54:10 it states the following
Isaiah 54:10: -
10 For the mountains shall depart
And the hills be removed,
But My kindness shall not depart from you,
Nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,"

Says the Lord, who has mercy on you.
Another passage which mentions a Covenant of peace is found here: -
Ezekiel 34:20-30 - 20 'Therefore thus says the Lord God to them:"Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them — My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.

25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"
Also consider: -
Ezekiel 37:24-28 -24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"


The covenant of peace is found starting at Jeremiah 31:31ff.

David, in your rebuttal you attempted to mix two differing views, ST's and mine, into one and became confused. The covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a is not a covenant of peace and it is not Christ that enters into this covenant as ST is suggesting. It is the "little horn" the prince/ruler of the wicked fallen heavenly hosts, in heaven.

This covenant is made after Satan is released from the 1,000 years of imprisonment in the Bottomless Pit and is the documentation that binds the nations together at that time to go up against God and Jerusalem.

The end of the 2,300 year Prophecy over the heather gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is in our near future and Christ will be seen afar off by the Jewish Nation as he brings judgement on the rebelling earthly kings and their armies and as is stated in Luke 14:31-32, the Israelite Nation will seek Jesus' terms of Peace which then leads into the fulfilment of Jeremiah 31ff. The covenant prophesied in Daniel 9:27 will come into play after a further 1,000 years have passed after God redeems all of Israel, in our near future.

David, you have been praised for giving a great rebuttal to my post, but what I learnt from your response was that you had not taken the time to understand what I had posted and that you had allowed the lens of your understanding to be your filter in your understanding of what I had written.

So be it. We read what we want to see written, we hear what we want to hear but that does not give us understanding.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Wed Feb 01, 2017 5:07 am

Jay, I don't understand your post, because it is confusing this issue. Here is what is plainly stated by you and I.

Jay Ross wrote:The reason you are confused is that you believe that the Solemn covenant in Daniel 9:27a is a peace covenant, which I do not agree with and have not called this solemn covenant made with many "a peace covenant".


Exit40 wrote:Jay, this is a misunderstanding on your part of what I believe and have stated. The Prince who is to come 'is Christ', this referring to His second coming, does not enter into a solemn Covenant, He confirms the Covenant, fulfills it as Promised in the Covenant.


As you say the Daniel 9 Covenant is not a peace Covenant, why do you then with Scripture prove it is, contradicting your stated belief it is not ?

David, in your rebuttal you attempted to mix two differing views, ST's and mine, into one and became confused.


Jay, neither you nor ST has convinced me of anything. I believe what I do 'because the Scripture was revealed to me' while I was debating a different point of view with ST. I have already stated this, do you remember reading it ?

The end of the 2,300 year Prophecy over the heather gentiles trampling the Sanctuary of God is in our near future and Christ will be seen afar off by the Jewish Nation as he brings judgement on the rebelling earthly kings and their armies and as is stated in Luke 14:31-32, the Israelite Nation will seek Jesus' terms of Peace which then leads into the fulfilment of Jeremiah 31ff. The covenant prophesied in Daniel 9:27 will come into play after a further 1,000 years have passed after God redeems all of Israel, in our near future.


I am aware of your theory Jay, I believe you are mistaken. I believe Jesus physically returns and sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the Tribulation, or during the end possibly when His people recognize Him as the Messiah that they had pierced. He then lives in Jerusalem with them for the Millennium, there is peace because the Lord has ordained it, as part of Salvation the Covenant has explained by the Law. The Lamb will lay with the Lion is more than just those words Jay. The Lord's Holy Mountain is established in Israel, in Jerusalem, for the Millennium, for His people there. The rest of the world is ruled with a Rod of Iron during this same time period. Ten men will grab the skirt of a Jew saying, we will go with you as God is with you. He is not far off during the Millennium as you state. There is peace in Israel for His people for this time period as Scripture plainly states, not coincidentally the exact ones you provided. If it is as you state can you answer my previously posed question, why do the Jews seek terms of peace at the end of the Millennium when they are living in peace during that period ? :answerthequestion: please.

David, you have been praised for giving a great rebuttal to my post, but what I learnt from your response was that you had not taken the time to understand what I had posted and that you had allowed the lens of your understanding to be your filter in your understanding of what I had written.


Lisa expressed her opinion, does that bother you ? Why even mention it to me ? You answer her please if you so desire.

Jay, I have read and understood your position and why you believe that way. I simply disagree. You apparently have not read my post to understand why I believe the way I do, evidence your repeatedly stating in error I believe the covenant is a peace covenant.

So be it. We read what we want to see written, we hear what we want to hear but that does not give us understanding.


Jay, Brother those were condescending and downright insulting comments, as if I haven't the capability to understand anything you have written as an explanation to the Scriptures, or even the Scriptures themselves. You do realize that, don't you ? When you make those type statements to your Brethren here on this board, which you have shown a propensity to do when you finally reach the point of not being able to convince anyone of your theory, you are showing an attitude that appears prideful towards us here. This is more than a writing style, it is blowing us here and myself off as lesser beings. And this after you not fully reading my post ? Who is reading what he wants to see, and hearing what he wants to hear then in consideration of your continuous errors ? Please stop this, and answer my question I have repeated above.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:36 pm

Yes David, I remember you stated that you had a revelation while having a debate with ST.

I also know that your rebuttals are very dependant on your understanding of scripture, like you see Christ mentioned in Daniel 8 when no mention of him is made. There is a reference to the Ruler/prince of all the hosts, i.e. God and a reference to the little horn and who is also referred to as the Prince of the fallen hosts, and this fallen heavenly host is the prince who comes with his people, an army allowed by God to decimate the Sanctuary and Jerusalem for a period of two ages during which time there is a war in heaven between the Righteous heavenly host and the fallen wicked heavenly hosts.

Now, I think, we both accept that the Son of Man, Christ, will be given dominion over the peoples of the earth after the "beasts" of Daniel 7:1-12 are judged, but our respective understanding of how Christ exercises the dominion given to him differs markedly, Your view is that Christ rules here on the earth during the Millennium Age while I on the other hand have the view that Christ exercises His dominion from Heaven as our Mediating Priest during the Millennium Age.

You Believe that it is Christ who enters into/confirms a "solemn" covenant with many in Daniel 9:27a whereas I am of the view that it is an insolent fallen heavenly host, i.e. the little horn as referred to in both Daniel 7 and 8, that make the solemn covenant with many which is to be in effect for a period of seven years but we are then told in the second half of this verse that the little horn will break this solemn covenant after 3.5 years.

Now who is right and who is wrong will be revealed, just like in Jeremiah's time, concerning the foretold coming of Babylon to take Judah into exile for 70 years.

The people believed what they wanted to hear and read what they wanted to read in what was written but the understanding that they came to was exposed as a lie and that they had listened to prophets who God had not told to be prophets to bring His Word concerning their immediate and distant future.

The "prophets" built precept upon precept, verse upon verse and it came to nothing. There is nothing new under the sun.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:54 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The people believed what they wanted to hear and read what they wanted to read in what was written but the understanding that they came to was exposed as a lie and that they had listened to prophets who God had not told to be prophets to bring His Word concerning their immediate and distant future.The "prophets" built precept upon precept, verse upon verse and it came to nothing. There is nothing new under the sun.


Right, nothing new under the sun.

Many of us, but you Jay, are possibly preparing our hearts, and all who will hear us, for a very real Tribulation to come in our Near Future. Many of us on this forum believe that we will endure that tribulation to come, without being taken out beforehand.
As far as I know, None of Us, accepting only you Jay, believe that we need not be concerned with being carried away captive by antichrist at all, because it is not in our Near Future.

Only the Pillow Prophets felt there was nothing to be concerned about......turns out there was though, wasn't there?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:43 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:The people believed what they wanted to hear and read what they wanted to read in what was written but the understanding that they came to was exposed as a lie and that they had listened to prophets who God had not told to be prophets to bring His Word concerning their immediate and distant future.The "prophets" built precept upon precept, verse upon verse and it came to nothing. There is nothing new under the sun.


Right, nothing new under the sun.

Many of us, but you Jay, are possibly preparing our hearts, and all who will hear us, for a very real Tribulation to come in our Near Future. Many of us on this forum believe that we will endure that tribulation to come, without being taken out beforehand.
As far as I know, None of Us, accepting only you Jay, believe that we need not be concerned with being carried away captive by antichrist at all, because it is not in our Near Future.

Only the Pillow Prophets felt there was nothing to be concerned about......turns out there was though, wasn't there?


ST: - I have never stated the above at all.

What God requires of us is clearly set out in the scriptures. It requires us to have a repentant heart where God's covenant with all people can be written. I have also said that unless we are prepared to take up our own cross and Follow Jesus, then as Jesus states, we cannot be His disciples. Isaiah 58 also sets out what God requires of those who are "descendants" of Jacob, which is restated in Isaiah 61 and included in the Parable in Matthew 25:31-46.

Now you speak of a near future tribulation, and I would agree with you, that it will occur, but it is not the Great and terrible Tribulation where no tribulation before it has ever come close to it, nor will that Great and Terrible Tribulation be seen after that time. Now this Great and Terrible Tribulation will occur in our distant future during the end little while period of the Millennium Age.

I also accept that we will all pass through the time of this near future tribulation period without being taken out of the way first.

I have also stated that during this near future tribulation event, which will end with the judgement of the rebellious king of the earth and their armies at Armageddon, that Christ will be seen afar off and that the Nation of Israel will seek to know his terms of peace after which, if they accept them, all of Israel will be saved.

Concerning being carried away captive by the antichrist in our near future, our faith in God will protect us as God has promised us that we will not bear more than we can endure. That God will keep our "spirit" safe no matter what the Antichrist attempts to do to us.

ST, perhaps we all need to go through the fire of tribulation so that we can be refined and made pure with all of the dross scrapped off of the liquid metal before it is cast once more.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:20 am

Jay Ross wrote:Yes David, I remember you stated that you had a revelation while having a debate with ST.

I also know that your rebuttals are very dependant on your understanding of scripture, ...


Yes Jay, I am dependent on my understanding of Scripture. Will I be better off if I am dependent on yours ? Your tone suggests I will, as I am currently wrong in my understanding

Your view is that Christ rules here on the earth during the Millennium Age while I on the other hand have the view that Christ exercises His dominion from Heaven as our Mediating Priest during the Millennium Age.


How many times do I have to ask you to answer my question, directly, and not presumed to be included in your lengthy narratives ? I will not repeat myself again, please scroll back up to find it. If you don't answer I must assume you have no answer.

You Believe that it is Christ who enters into/confirms a "solemn" covenant with many in Daniel 9:27a ...


Jay, solemn is your word, applied to my statement. I have never used this word, it does not apply in my understanding in the manner you believe. If you are going to state what I believe please try to get it right, OK ? Words have meanings as well you know. Your added word to mine changes the narrative, the one I get from the Scriptures, and does not reflect my belief.

Now who is right and who is wrong will be revealed, just like in Jeremiah's time, concerning the foretold coming of Babylon to take Judah into exile for 70 years.

The people believed what they wanted to hear and read what they wanted to read in what was written but the understanding that they came to was exposed as a lie and that they had listened to prophets who God had not told to be prophets to bring His Word concerning their immediate and distant future.


Jay, with you somehow this always comes down right or wrong, and though you try appear to be humble, you are not, as your implication is that I, or anyone who does not see to the great depth you do, are wrong. Whether you realize it or not, you are lessening the worth of fellow Christians in your eyes, nearly everyone sees that, and get put off by it.

The "prophets" built precept upon precept, verse upon verse and it came to nothing. There is nothing new under the sun.


See, there is the implication. How can we have a good discussion when you write like that, and fail to answer a question posed therein to answer the plain reading of Scripture, the answer of which will either help define or deepen misunderstanding ? If you don't answer my question here, I am certain I will have to ask it on some different thread. If not here, we can continue this another time.

God Bless you

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:45 am

shorttribber wrote:I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.


Hi Shorty, the aforementioned statement you have made is what I would consider "borderline" and tiptoeing the realm of sensationalism and sophistry. It's just my humble opinion of course - but you are one of the more knowledgeable Christians on this forum - and I think we need to be very careful about making predictions without anything to support or back up that particular prediction. Remember you also predicted that a former president was the AC as well - and predictions about the Blood Moons. They were to no avail.

shorttribber wrote:After the AOD, there will be at least 1,260 days of great tribulation (Saints still on earth then) , and God's Wrath will be poured out during the following 30 days After That, But Saints Gone Before God Outpours His Wrath during that 30 day period.In other words, 1,290 days of Great tribulation, but God "Shortens" "Those Days" to closer to 1,260 for the Saints.


I wanted to also comment on the aforementioned. First of all Scripture provides absolutely NO indication of exactly how long "Great Tribulation" lasts. We do know that the Body of Christ is persecuted for 1,260 days - and that the coming Antichrist is given power for 1,260 Days - so there is no evidence to support what you have wrote; it's merely your opinion or theory.

This is what we do know - that there indeed is a time period of 3.5 years that the coming Antichrist is given authority & the Body of Christ is persecuted. The Subject of this Thread is "A Covenant with Many". I am now debating whether the "Covenant with Many" even applies to the Final 3.5 years - as is may have already been fulfilled - and there remains a 75 day period that has been mentioned; namely 1,290 days and 1,335 days which NO ONE seems to understand.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:05 am

Mr Baldy wrote:shorttribber wrote:I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.
Mr. B. wrote: Hi Shorty, the aforementioned statement you have made is what I would consider "borderline" and tiptoeing the realm of sensationalism and sophistry.

How is it possible to have "borderline" Intent.
Sophistry is Intentional Mr. B.. Do you honestly believe that i, or any person on this forum "Intends", "Intentionally", Purposefully" to discuss our personal opinionsTO Deceive?
A person either Intends or Does Not have Intension.

There is Zero sophistry among us Mr. B.,I do not believe there is Any Intended deception among us on this forum.
There are other words you may chose i think that may be accurate, but sophistry is an incorrect and cutting charge against any of us.

It would be good for you to recognize your mistaken choice of that word, and simply admit it.

We love each other here, and we all chose incorrect terms from time to time.

Mr Baldy wrote: Remember you also predicted that a former president was the AC as well - and predictions about the Blood Moons. They were to no avail.

Recently I've been given More Reason, based on Actions Against Israel, to believe even more so about that former president. We will wait and see if my thoughts are or, are not to "no avail" on that subject.

i will leave it at that.

As far as blood moons, Isis is all I've Ever mentioned in connection with them (blood moons). Others, to no avail, mentioned many other possibilities. I never did.

Mr Baldy wrote:I wanted to also comment on the aforementioned. First of all Scripture provides absolutely NO indication of exactly how long "Great Tribulation" lasts. We do know that the Body of Christ is persecuted for 1,260 days - and that the coming Antichrist is given power for 1,260 Days - so there is no evidence to support what you have wrote; it's merely your opinion or theory.This is what we do know - that there indeed is a time period of 3.5 years that the coming Antichrist is given authority & the Body of Christ is persecuted. The Subject of this Thread is "A Covenant with Many". I am now debating whether the "Covenant with Many" even applies to the Final 3.5 years - as is may have already been fulfilled - and there remains a 75 day period that has been mentioned; namely 1,290 days and 1,335 days which NO ONE seems to understand


I have given a "Possible" explanation of "Those Days", we will wait and see how close I've come to the Truth on the matter in not too many days.

That's just "My Opinion", With Zero Deception Intended.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:19 am

Jay Ross wrote:ST: - I have never stated the above at all.

Really?
how about this part, that was the Main Point of what is said...
Jay Ross wrote:As far as I know, None of Us, accepting only you Jay, believe that we need not be concerned with being carried away captive by antichrist at all, because it is not in our Near Future.

You are not expecting antichrist to harm us or attack us, and Slaughter us (the body of Christ) Any Time in our Near Future, right?

Have I misunderstood that part of what you teach?

Jay Ross wrote:Now you speak of a near future tribulation, and I would agree with you, that it will occur, but it is not the Great and terrible Tribulation where no tribulation before it has ever come close to it, nor will that Great and Terrible Tribulation be seen after that time.


Well, that's the BIG Disagreement we Have, and it IS a BIG Difference. Tribulation, as you say, happens all the time, all over the world, But What You ALONE Believe that the GREAT TRIBULATION is Nowhere in our NEAR FUTURE.

That's the Big Difference.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:48 am

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:ST: - I have never stated the above at all.

Really?
how about this part, that was the Main Point of what is said...
Jay Ross wrote:As far as I know, None of Us, accepting only you Jay, believe that we need not be concerned with being carried away captive by antichrist at all, because it is not in our Near Future.

You are not expecting antichrist to harm us or attack us, and Slaughter us (the body of Christ) Any Time in our Near Future, right?

Have I misunderstood that part of what you teach?


First off please go back and correct the above portion of your post. The words that you have attributed to me was a direct quote on my part of what you had previously written in your post, on Thursday 2nd February at 2:54 pm, (My time. My time = UTC + 10 hrs). I have highlighted in blue that portion of your post that is a direct quote from my post which is directly above the post of yours that I am quoting below: -

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:The people believed what they wanted to hear and read what they wanted to read in what was written but the understanding that they came to was exposed as a lie and that they had listened to prophets who God had not told to be prophets to bring His Word concerning their immediate and distant future.The "prophets" built precept upon precept, verse upon verse and it came to nothing. There is nothing new under the sun.


Right, nothing new under the sun.

Many of us, but you Jay, are possibly preparing our hearts, and all who will hear us, for a very real Tribulation to come in our Near Future. Many of us on this forum believe that we will endure that tribulation to come, without being taken out beforehand.
As far as I know, None of Us, accepting only you Jay, believe that we need not be concerned with being carried away captive by antichrist at all, because it is not in our Near Future.

Only the Pillow Prophets felt there was nothing to be concerned about......turns out there was though, wasn't there?


So ST your bad mistake on attributing this to me when it was a statement that you have made.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Now you speak of a near future tribulation, and I would agree with you, that it will occur, but it is not the Great and terrible Tribulation where no tribulation before it has ever come close to it, nor will that Great and Terrible Tribulation be seen after that time.


Well, that's the BIG Disagreement we Have, and it IS a BIG Difference. Tribulation, as you say, happens all the time, all over the world, But What You ALONE Believe that the GREAT TRIBULATION is Nowhere in our NEAR FUTURE.

That's the Big Difference.

ST in the Book of Judges, the Israelite nation went through periods of tribulation from the people around then and when they repented they then enjoyed periods of peace. Yes tribulation is occurring around the world where Christians are being persecuted and killed for their beliefs, but we are talking about two very short distinct periods of time, our near future and then a second time period in our distant future. This is what Jesus told us in Matthew 24:4-31 where he was referring to a time of Great tribulation which will occur just before the end will come. The end that Jesus spoke of will not occur in our near future.

I agreed with you that in our near future, the tribulation of the Saints, will increase but from Matthew 24 I also know that there is a Great Tribulation which will occur in our distant future.

ST I am not alone in believing that the Great Tribulation is Nowhere in our NEAR FUTURE, I have a "brother" who believes so too.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:25 pm

Jay Ross wrote:So ST your bad mistake on attributing this to me when it was a statement that you have made.

have not mistaken , since you still say this...
Jay Ross wrote:I agreed with you that in our near future, the tribulation of the Saints, will increase but from Matthew 24 I also know that there is a Great Tribulation which will occur in our distant future.

I said you do not agree that ANTCHRIST is OUR NEAR FUTURE CONCERN...in as many words.
Jay Ross wrote:ST I am not alone in believing that the Great Tribulation is Nowhere in our NEAR FUTURE, I have a "brother" who believes so too.

Then Both of You are incorrect I believe......AND Both of you are giving the saints a sense of no concern regarding the Timing of the Great Tribulation and Antichrist.
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Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:36 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

I am aware of your theory Jay, I believe you are mistaken. I believe Jesus physically returns and sets foot on the Mount of Olives at the end of the Tribulation, or during the end possibly when His people recognize Him as the Messiah that they had pierced. He then lives in Jerusalem with them for the Millennium, there is peace because the Lord has ordained it, as part of Salvation the Covenant has explained by the Law. The Lamb will lay with the Lion is more than just those words Jay. The Lord's Holy Mountain is established in Israel, in Jerusalem, for the Millennium, for His people there. The rest of the world is ruled with a Rod of Iron during this same time period. Ten men will grab the skirt of a Jew saying, we will go with you as God is with you. He is not far off during the Millennium as you state. There is peace in Israel for His people for this time period as Scripture plainly states, not coincidentally the exact ones you provided. If it is as you state can you answer my previously posed question, why do the Jews seek terms of peace at the end of the Millennium when they are living in peace during that period ? :answerthequestion: please.

<snip>


David, I am assuming the question you want answered is the portion of the above quote that has been highlighted in red and also made bold.

As I have previously answered, The redemption of the Nation of Israel will occur in our near future during/after the judgement of the rebelling Kings at Armageddon and that they will live in peace during the Millennium Age. During the Armageddon event they will see Jesus afar off and seek His/God's terms of peace. It will be at this time that they will see the scars on Jesus' body and weep.

The Daniel 9:27 prophecy is about the "little horn" making a solemn covenant, just like God did in Genesis 15:18 when He walked between the cut halves of the animals to enter into a "sign" covenant with Abraham. A comparison of the Hebrew should confirm this for you.

The Daniel 9:27 prophecy will be fulfilled in our distant future and has no bearing on the timing of when Israel will be redeemed by God in our near future.

I trust that the above answers your question.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:20 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:So ST your bad mistake on attributing this to me when it was a statement that you have made.

have not mistaken , since you still say this...
Jay Ross wrote:I agreed with you that in our near future, the tribulation of the Saints, will increase but from Matthew 24 I also know that there is a Great Tribulation which will occur in our distant future.

I said you do not agree that ANTCHRIST is OUR NEAR FUTURE CONCERN...in as many words.
Jay Ross wrote:ST I am not alone in believing that the Great Tribulation is Nowhere in our NEAR FUTURE, I have a "brother" who believes so too.

Then Both of You are incorrect I believe......AND Both of you are giving the saints a sense of no concern regarding the Timing of the Great Tribulation and Antichrist.


ST, I have agreed that we will suffer tribulation in our near future and yes the source of that tribulation can be attributed to the influence of the "little horn" as spoken about in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7:1-12. The question that needs to be answered is whether or not the little horn is the Antichrist?

The questions I have of you ST is, "How important is it to be able to attribute this near future tribulation to just one entity, namely the Antichrist?" "If we are suffering under tribulation, will we be that concerned of who is the driving force of this tribulation that we will suffer?"

It seems to me that you are focusing on the wrong end of the storyline.

Oh, I did also posted previously that it is important to focus on our relationship with God as He will keep us safe in all that we will go through during this time of the near future tribulation. This will also be true for the Saints during the time of the Great tribulation as well in the distant future.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:23 pm

Jay Ross wrote:The questions I have of you ST is, "How important is it to be able to attribute this near future tribulation to just one entity, namely the Antichrist?" "If we are suffering under tribulation, will we be that concerned of who is the driving force of this tribulation that we will suffer?"

It is important in that there is a very big difference in the tribulation you are expecting and the Great tribulation.

That's how I see it...I think that difference in itself is Very Important.
Jay Ross wrote:Oh, I did also posted previously that it is important to focus on our relationship with God as He will keep us safe in all that we will go through during this time of the near future tribulation. This will also be true for the Saints during the time of the Great tribulation as well in the distant future.

I suppose it depends on many things, but "Safe" in the Physical sense is not something to be Automatically Expected during the Great tribulation.
We are going to be Physically Overcome by antichrist, and beheaded...that is not a good description of "Safe", in the physical sense.

I do expect to see amazing protective Miracles, but not in most cases I don't think.

:banana: but we will not be Spiritually Overcome (Very Far From it)...we win :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:30 pm

So ST are we now speaking of the tribulation in our distant future, i.e. the Great Tribulation, or are we talking about the Tribulation in our near future.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Feb 02, 2017 5:55 pm

shorttribber wrote:How is it possible to have "borderline" Intent.Sophistry is Intentional Mr. B.. Do you honestly believe that i, or any person on this forum "Intends", "Intentionally", Purposefully" to discuss our personal opinions TO Deceive?


Hi Shorty,

Now, lets DO address this matter with True Intelligence and comprehension into what you have said, and what has been applied to your meaning. I informed you that you should be careful as the very information that you have been providing was borderline "Sensationalism" - (which you have appeared to have left out) - and "Sophistry". You chose to address Sophistry, and you have applied the word "Intent" with it's meaning - which is also a subtle form of deception. If you are going to quote me - then please INCLUDE ALL that I have mentioned.

Sophistry - for the record can ALSO mean:

"the use of reasoning or arguments that sound correct, but are actually false".

So..........your insertion of the word "Intent" is or can be very deceptive in and of itself.

Now as far as you incorporating others into what you have very plainly stated - and is ONLY your opinion, and asking me if I think, or speculate that their intention should be questioned - is totally unmerited. Please don't draw others into your apparent flaws - as this would be unfair.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:11 pm

Jay Ross wrote:So ST are we now speaking of the tribulation in our distant future, i.e. the Great Tribulation, or are we talking about the Tribulation in our near future.

The only one...the Great Tribulation, in our very near future (Possibly).
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:39 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
shorttribber wrote:How is it possible to have "borderline" Intent.Sophistry is Intentional Mr. B.. Do you honestly believe that i, or any person on this forum "Intends", "Intentionally", Purposefully" to discuss our personal opinions TO Deceive?


Hi Shorty,

Now, lets DO address this matter with True Intelligence and comprehension into what you have said, and what has been applied to your meaning. I informed you that you should be careful as the very information that you have been providing was borderline "Sensationalism" - (which you have appeared to have left out) - and "Sophistry". You chose to address Sophistry, and you have applied the word "Intent" with it's meaning - which is also a subtle form of deception. If you are going to quote me - then please INCLUDE ALL that I have mentioned.

Sophistry - for the record can ALSO mean:

"the use of reasoning or arguments that sound correct, but are actually false".

So..........your insertion of the word "Intent" is or can be very deceptive in and of itself.

Now as far as you incorporating others into what you have very plainly stated - and is ONLY your opinion, and asking me if I think, or speculate that their intention should be questioned - is totally unmerited. Please don't draw others into your apparent flaws - as this would be unfair.


According to the definition of sophistry, it is First Listed in the definition as intended Deception.

Feel as you will Mr. B., I think it is too strong of word to charge any of us here on this board with.

I did not concern myself with the word sensational, that is not what I had disagreed with. Why should I comment or mention what I had no disagreement with?

Mentioning only your use of the word "sophistry" was my concern, and where I still disagree with you.
Here is what I quoted, that you said.
" Hi Shorty, the aforementioned statement you have made is what I would consider "borderline" and tiptoeing the realm of sensationalism and sophistry. "

Mr Baldy wrote:Now, lets DO address this matter with True Intelligence and comprehension into what you have said, and what has been applied to your meaning. I informed you that you should be careful as the very information that you have been providing was borderline "Sensationalism" - (which you have appeared to have left out) - and "Sophistry". You chose to address Sophistry, and you have applied the word "Intent" with it's meaning - which is also a subtle form of deception. If you are going to quote me - then please INCLUDE ALL that I have mentioned.


Now, how did I leave out the word sensationalism Mr. B.?

Are you asking that Every time I comment on any thing you say, that I must comment on every Word or Every Sentence you say?

I had no concern over your choice or use of the word "sensationalism".
I still believe the word "Sophistry" is improperly applied to us on this forum.
That's why the Most Common USE of a WORD is LISTED FIRST in the Definition, Generally speaking.

:yield: can we get off this subject now and just let the thread return to it's original direction. :yield:

back to this ok? :hugs:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:17 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:So ST are we now speaking of the tribulation in our distant future, i.e. the Great Tribulation, or are we talking about the Tribulation in our near future.

The only one...the Great Tribulation, in our very near future (Possibly).


So in light of Matthew 24, you are telling me that the End of the World is a near future event because you believe that the Great tribulation is a near future event. Or are you having a two way bet again by the (Possibly) tacked onto the end of your statement.

I am not sure that that understanding stands up to biblical scrutiny.

Shalom
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