A covenant with many

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:31 pm

Just a note about the Hebrew Roots Movement....

Over the years we have had a number of members whose comments were based on what were obviously based on this movement. To the best of my recollection, there were at least 5 or so. The mods countered the posted beliefs and eventually in 2009 decided to ask Holly and Adam their thoughts and how these types of beliefs should be handled on the board. I'll share part of Adam's reply for now and hope that might shed some light on this particular topic.

Holly asked me to weigh in on this as I struggled with the whole "should I be keeping Jewish law even though I know it doesn't contribute to my salvation" thing years ago.

I'll give you my thoughts, some scriptures and then some courses of action.

My thoughts are that the insistence or suggestion that New Testament believers should adhere to Old Testament law cuts against the grain of nearly the entire New Testament. Acts deals with this, as does Romans. More poignantly, Galatians deals with the issue when it comes to crossing the line on affecting salvation. In this case, however, I think it would be good if anyone having doubts would read not only these passages but also the book of Colossians, especially chapter two.

In Colossians, Paul is refuting a pre-Gnostic heresy that, among other things, promoted the possession of secret knowledge (that would give you the "edge" in your spiritual life) that included things like: adhering to dietary laws, asceticism and the reverence of certain days (sound familiar?). What is Paul's answer to this heresy? The supremacy of Christ.

Do I believe that followers of Christ can freely choose to adhere to Jewish dietary laws, asceticism or special worship on certain days? Romans 14 suggests that it is OK for believers to differ on these issues (with the assumption, of course, that we are not making any of them necessary for salvation). Do I believe that there is anything to be gained by these practices? Certainly not in my standing before God. One does not become an "A" class Christian by following these rules (or abstaining from them).

Paul says it clearly: whatever does not precede from faith is sin, and each of us will stand or fall before our own master.


Does this help?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:05 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Does this help?


Certainly it helps, as Adam mentions the KEY which is the SUPREMACY OF CHRIST.

Adam also refers us to the Book of Galatians - but I wish that Scripture had been presented to further refute this Heresy. Adam also mentioned the Book of Colossians - more on this in closing.

Here is what the Apostle Paul had to say:

Galatians 1:6-9 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Perversion of the Gospel

6) I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7) which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


Paul clearly speaks of the Gospel of Christ and mentions TWICE that someone preaching another Gospel contrary to the Gospel of Christ is to be "accursed!". Paul later continues with this:

Galatians 3:10-14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11) Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The Hebrew Roots doctrine is a very dangerous doctrine, and is just complete Heresy - as it requires one to keep the Old Testament LAWS. The aforementioned passage of Scripture clearly identifies the problem with those requirements that the Hebrew Roots moment wants to adhere to.

The Book of James mentions:

James 2:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


In closing........ Jesus Christ is LORD! He is the ONLY True God and will be the ONLY God we ever See!

Paul writes this in the Book of Colossians:


Colossians 2:8-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; 11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


More on the SUPREMACY OF CHRIST:


Colossians 1:15-20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


Let our faith be in Christ - and NOT the foolish doctrines of men. Jesus is Lord!
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:38 am

Great post Mr B !!! I am with you and everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord. And it is no small coincidence these Scriptures you have provided are not only relevant to the Covenant with Many, they are the expression of it. And they are the next step in the evidence we seek about it, that it is indeed the mystery contained and revealed in the Daniel 9 Prophecy, especially 9:27. Everyone read through these passages Mr B provided with this new understanding. Along with the Scriptures I provide, I hope you will see it.

Galatians 3:10-14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.
11) Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.”
13)Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”—
14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The Law contains the death we all deserve, our curse, which Christ took upon Himself for our Redemption. It is for this reason He came, for the lost not only of Israel, but so the Many of the Covenant can receive through Faith the Promise of the Spirit, Redemption and eternal life with Christ. This is the ultimate goal of out Almighty God, our Heavenly Father, that we come to Him through Christ by Faith, to become adopted sons of True Israel.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Here again is the proof the Law cannot save...

James 2:10 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10) For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.


Salvation from death, guilty by the curse of the Law, is only through Christ, He confirms the Covenant with Many by His being cut off in the midst of the week, to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. And not to condemn by the Law, rather by being the Seed of Abraham to Save by the Promise of the Covenant. Christ is the Promise by which we are saved.

Jhn 12:27 ¶ Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Jhn 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


Further evidence of Christ confirming the Covenant with Many, us and anyone, everyone, in the world from the beginning to the end, the Promise of the Covenant...

Colossians 2:9-12 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11) and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12) having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Colossians 1:15-20 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16) For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17) He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18) He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19) For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20) and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


Christ confirms the Covenant for one week, to reconcile all things to our Father, first through His 3.5 year Ministry, cut off in the midst, for the Many, then by ... the 3.5 remaining years of The Prophecy. I Hope and Pray we can all see this, it is sooo important to our end times beliefs.

We In Christ ... are the Many of the Covenant confirmed.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:49 pm

Sadly, I have been accused of being an adherent of the Hebrew Roots Movement and pushing all of their theology as a false argument against my previously expressed views.

Sadly, the "****Trib" theology is also a dangerous theological movement that can be just as much a sticker to their "Law/understanding" and it too was not taught by Christ or by the apostles. In fact Christ taught that before the end of the ages that those who where His disciples would suffer for their faith in Him and in their Father God. Very much a contrary view to the expressed theological views of the "****Trib" movement.

If we read the Parable of the Judgement of the Nations it is about the final judgement of the flock who call Jesus Lord. It is a parable about the separation of the Sheep from the Goats in the flock of people who call Jesus Lord.

In Ezekiel 34 is worth reading because in it we are told that: -

Ezekiel 34:11-19: -

'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day {i.e. at the very end of the ages}. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep {i.e. the first flock who do not call Me Lord} and sheep {i.e. the second flock who do call Me Lord} and will then separate out the second flock[/i], between rams {i.e. who have a Hebraic heart after God} and goats {i.e. who have a Hellenistic heart after God}. Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."

Please note that I have added some expansion in italics to this passage.


If we go to Isaiah 58 we will see references to that chapter scattered through the above passage.

Then there is the following passage concerning the Law: -

Deuteronomy 10:12-22: -

The Essence of the Law


"And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good? Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name. He is your praise, and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things which your eyes have seen. Your fathers went down to Egypt with seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as the stars of heaven in multitude.


Also consider the following passage: -

Jeremiah 31:31-33: -

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah — not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.


By saying that the Law no longer applies to us because we have Christ, that Christ is central to our salvation, then why did Christ teach that he did not come to change the Law. By claiming that the Law no longer apples to us, we have made a "New Law" and its yoke is heavier than God's yoke of His Law of Love.

If we Love God as we claim, then we will keep the "Law of Love" that he has written upon our hearts. We will love those who live around us. When they hunger, we will feed them, when they are naked, we will clothe them, when they are carrying a heavy yoke we will help them to lift that heavy yoke off of them.

Is this not the heart of God. Is this not what God requires of us. If our neighbours suffers, then we too should also suffer to demonstrate the hope that we have in the Lord. If we are separated out and persecuted because we Love the Lord, then we should rejoice, because we are being strengthened to demonstrate God's Love of us and that we have nothing to fear from those who can only kill us physically but not spiritually.

In the final Judgement, God will judge those who call Him Lord into those who kept His Law of Love, and those who only kept God's Law of Love if it is to their own advantage.

Those who force "their understanding of the Law" onto other people are guilty of heresy against God.

God has told us to make disciples of other such that they too Love the Lord God with all of their heart and keep His Laws of Love. People observe our excesses and if that excess does not express God's Love for the people around us in practical ways, then we too with be gathered with the Goats and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

Shalom

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:38 pm

Jay Ross wrote:By saying that the Law no longer applies to us because we have Christ, that Christ is central to our salvation, then why did Christ teach that he did not come to change the Law. By claiming that the Law no longer apples to us, we have made a "New Law" and its yoke is heavier than God's yoke of His Law of Love.


Jay Ross - I think you are making a very serious mistake in your aforementioned comments - in that you are incorporating your very own "ideology" into Scripture. It is not WE who are saying that the Law "no longer applies" - but Scripture itself. Did you not read the previous Scriptures that have been posted?


If not, here is Galatians 3:10-14 ONCE again:

Galatians 3:10-14 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10) For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11) Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12) However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13) Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— 14) in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


In closing, I believe that you are grossly misunderstanding Scripture when you mention that Christ did not come to change the Law, then arbitrarily apply it to your own interpretation. While is it very True that Christ did not come to change the Law - YOU should know that He came to FULFILL it; AND did so by subsequently dying for us ALL - becoming a '"curse for us". So there is no "New Law" as you want to label those who have put their total Faith in Christ for Salvation.

Your Hebrew Roots Moment ideology is in ERROR - and complete Heresy.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:24 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Your Hebrew Roots Moment ideology is in ERROR - and complete Heresy.


Hi Mr Baldy,

Just a slight, but important detour imo....you may want to do some serious research on Steven Anderson since you recommended his videos above. He truly teaches and publicly says some very horrifying things. :eek:
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:42 pm

Mr Baldy, do you agree with all of these following scriptures?

Matthew 5:43-48: -

Love Your Enemies


"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

OR

Matthew 19:16-22: -

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler


Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

OR

Matthew 22:34-40: -

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

OR

Mark 12:28-34

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"

Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

OR

Luke 10:25-37

The Parable of the Good Samaritan


And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

So he answered and said, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"

And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"

And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

OR

Romans 13:8-10

Love Your Neighbor


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

OR

Galatians 5:7-15

Love Fulfills the Law


You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

OR

James 2:8-13: -

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


DO these scriptures embrace the concept of God's Law on Love?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:50 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:Hi Mr Baldy,Just a slight, but important detour imo....you may want to do some serious research on Steven Anderson since you recommended his videos above. He truly teaches and publicly says some very horrifying things


Hi Abiding,

Yes, I don't want to derail this thread by any means.........but I DID NOT recommend those videos, but said that a member of this forum previously submitted them. I do however agree with what Steven Anderson said about the "Hebrew Roots" moment. It's Heresy when someone suggests that we keep the LAW - which no one can; instead of living by faith through Christ Jesus.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:55 am

Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, do you agree with all of these following scriptures?


Jay Ross,

I understand your attempt to lure me into a debate on whether or now we should follow the Law or not. What you are not understanding is what has been previously mentioned - and that is the FACT that Jesus did not come to "change the Law" but to Fulfill it through His Death & Resurrection.

When we put our faith in Christ, who is sufficient for Salvation we do the works of the Law. It is the Holy Spirit that lives in us that causes us to Bear Fruit. We cannot take credit for this, as we ALL fall short. This is what you must understand.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:21 am

Jay Ross wrote:
Sadly, the "****Trib" theology is also a dangerous theological movement that can be just as much a sticker to their "Law/understanding" and it too was not taught by Christ or by the apostles. In fact Christ taught that before the end of the ages that those who where His disciples would suffer for their faith in Him and in their Father God. Very much a contrary view to the expressed theological views of the "****Trib" movement.


Jay, 'shorttrib' does not teach we will not suffer for Christ's Name, rather we will shine through any suffering any of us may have to endure. I am curious if it is the language blocker that has obscured the word ****trib. Short is five letters, language blocker removes what appears to be another rendition.

By saying that the Law no longer applies to us because we have Christ, that Christ is central to our salvation, then why did Christ teach that he did not come to change the Law. By claiming that the Law no longer apples to us, we have made a "New Law" and its yoke is heavier than God's yoke of His Law of Love.


Jay, you are in very, very serious error here, and by stating this you throw out a good portion of Paul's teachings in the New Testament as having no value to us Gentile believers, and so throw out our Christ Himself. Christ Himself is the 'New Law' you proclaim is a heavier yoke than His previous 'Law of Love', which contained many ordinances not required of Faithful Christians. Christians no longer live under any 'Law' in this great regard, we are under the Grace hidden in the previous 'Law'. This is where Hebrew roots, and you, are in great error. Here is but one of many, many Scriptures, written by Paul, the Apostle to us Gentiles, that speak to this...

Gal 3:21 ¶ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Box Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


If we Love God as we claim, then we will keep the "Law of Love" that he has written upon our hearts....

...God has told us to make disciples of other such that they too Love the Lord God with all of their heart and keep His Laws of Love....


How is this Law written upon our hearts Jay ? Is this the 'New Covenant' you write about from Jeremiah 31 ? If we, and you, have this 'Law of Love', why do we, and you, bicker and call each other names, and accuse, and write each other off with 'so be it', and say some or all of us are 'unreliable Saints' ? Read through your posts and the responses to you and see the turmoil caused by this very lack. This is expressly why Jesus came as the Christ, because this 'Law' you proclaim is written on our hearts is not in effect yet, by ourselves we can't even keep this simple one !!! See, this is the serious error you have hidden in the Hebrew roots movements 'Law of Love', the aspects to which you adhere. This denies the Grace through Faith we so desperately need, because we cannot keep any Law !!! Any Law attempted to be kept by any man, will, kill us, a concept not adhered to by you or Hebrew roots. We cannot justify ourselves before God by ANY Law we attempt to keep. We are solely, and in totality, justified by Faith in Christ, His Grace, alone, with no other merit.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death...

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth...

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified...

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain...

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith...


Looking back through your posts Jay, I cannot find even one mention of the word Grace, or that you understand the concept of it. Rather you would use the roots term of 'Law of Love' which is our Father's expressed Gift of Grace through Christ, who is God Himself. Hebrew roots has a lump of leaven in it ruining the whole, and if you continue to proclaim it then this applies to you...

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:13 am

Now as to the Covenant with Many, consider this...

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


God our Father foresaw He would justify us through Faith ! This is the Many of the Covenant containing the Promise in Daniel 9:27. Faith in Whom again ? Christ, the Seed of the Promise.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Thus in the Midst of the Week, which we are still in ...

Gal 3:13 ¶ Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...


Through Christ and His Sacrifice we are justified by Faith in Him, before the Law, and thus us 'Many' receive the Promise hidden in the Law, Grace now revealed...

Gal 3:21 ¶ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


God's Promise of Blessing to the 'Many of the Covenant' foresaw and now revealed by Grace through Faith in Christ, the Seed of the Promise we now find ourselves in by Grace through Faith, as the Many of the Covenant of Daniel 9:27...

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,...
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ...


From the very moment of His being cut off, His Crucifixion, in the past until the very moment of the AoD in the future, all in between these two specific times is in the midst of the week, split so Israel could receive according to the Law their punishment of two thousand years put out of the Land. And that the Church would come into being, by Faith the Many, and flourish by the Gift of the Promise of Blessing, the Grace of God in our Christ. We have only the remaining last half of the 70th week to go through in the Prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27.

Can you see it now ???

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:39 am

Mark 14
24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

math 26
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many
for the remission of sins.

math 20
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Please Compare the Above verse With what Paul wrote....
Romans 15
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

And also Isaiah....
14 As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle manynations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

And as God Promised Abraham ....
Gen 17
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many
nations
.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father ofmany
nations have I made thee.


Behold! The New Covenant Confirmed with Many.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:41 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, do you agree with all of these following scriptures?


Jay Ross,

I understand your attempt to lure me into a debate on whether or now we should follow the Law or not. What you are not understanding is what has been previously mentioned - and that is the FACT that Jesus did not come to "change the Law" but to Fulfill it through His Death & Resurrection.

When we put our faith in Christ, who is sufficient for Salvation we do the works of the Law. It is the Holy Spirit that lives in us that causes us to Bear Fruit. We cannot take credit for this, as we ALL fall short. This is what you must understand.


MR Baldy, in this thread I have previously argued that Christ came to fulfil the Law and also suggested that by Fulfilling the Law He has confirmed the Law but the first part of the Daniel 9:27 prophecy is not a prophecy about Christ coming to confirm a the covenant with many as is being argued. I have argued that the Daniel 9:27a prophecy is about the little horn making a solemn covenant with many in our distant future and that the confirmation of the covenant of salvation occurred when Christ fulfilled the prophecy contained in Daniel 9:24.

I have also argued that there is a gap in time of around 3,000 years before the prophecy contained in Daniel 9:27 comes into play.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:17 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:
Sadly, the "****Trib" theology is also a dangerous theological movement that can be just as much a sticker to their "Law/understanding" and it too was not taught by Christ or by the apostles. In fact Christ taught that before the end of the ages that those who where His disciples would suffer for their faith in Him and in their Father God. Very much a contrary view to the expressed theological views of the "****Trib" movement.


Jay, 'shorttrib' does not teach we will not suffer for Christ's Name, rather we will shine through any suffering any of us may have to endure. I am curious if it is the language blocker that has obscured the word ****trib. Short is five letters, language blocker removes what appears to be another rendition.


David the "****" before the "Trib" was my way of expressing any "pre, mid, post, etc. tribulation theology is in error. The Shorttribulation theology of ST's also can be include in this broad theological error because of the respective times lines that they hold in common.

Exit40 wrote:
By saying that the Law no longer applies to us because we have Christ, that Christ is central to our salvation, then why did Christ teach that he did not come to change the Law. By claiming that the Law no longer apples to us, we have made a "New Law" and its yoke is heavier than God's yoke of His Law of Love.


Jay, you are in very, very serious error here, and by stating this you throw out a good portion of Paul's teachings in the New Testament as having no value to us Gentile believers, and so throw out our Christ Himself. Christ Himself is the 'New Law' you proclaim is a heavier yoke than His previous 'Law of Love', which contained many ordinances not required of Faithful Christians. Christians no longer live under any 'Law' in this great regard, we are under the Grace hidden in the previous 'Law'. This is where Hebrew roots, and you, are in great error.


David, please go back and read who I said has made this "new," with respect to time, "Law." I said that is was us, i.e. mankind, that has made this "new Law" that the "Law" no longer applies to us. Now with regards to your claim that I am saying what has been made bold in the quote above is a fabrication on your part and is not what I have said.

Now with regards to the English word "new" which has been used to translate two very different Greek words, i.e. "neos" new with respect to time, and "kainos" new especially with respect to freshness, which is demonstrated in the parable of the New, {with respect to time} Wine being placed in the refurnished like new again wine skins when both Greek root words are found embedded within the text of the parable.

Because the English word "new" has been used to translate two very different meaning Greek words associated with Strong's Greek Roots, G:3501 and G:2537 we have confusion in our understanding of the intent of the original Greek Text where they are found. G:3501 is only found once in close proximity to the word "covenant" and that is in Hebrews 12:24 and there is confusion as to whether the translation should read, "the new mediator of the covenant" or "the mediator of the new covenant." It is my view that the wording of this portion of scripture should read as : - "the new {with respect to time} mediator of the covenant." In all other cases where we read "New" used in close proximity to "testament" or "covenant" or "law" it is with Greek words derived from the Greek Root G:2537.

However the tradition of the translation of these two Greek words is that we have adopted the '"brand" new' understanding from our English language tradition and as such we have ignored the possibility that the Greek text intent of "freshness" or made fresh for G:2537 is lost from our understanding of the English scriptures.

This is also true of our understanding of Jeremiah 31:31. It speaks of making the covenant with the house of Israel of a Nation of Priests like new again or fresh once more for the nation. Thus it* will be basically the same covenant that God had entered into with the nation of Israel at Mt Sinai before they had rebelled and made the Golden Calf Idols to worship. This is a picture of God showing His Grace to the Nation of Israel.

Exit40 wrote:
If we Love God as we claim, then we will keep the "Law of Love" that he has written upon our hearts....

...God has told us to make disciples of others such that they too Love the Lord God with all of their heart and keep His Laws of Love....


How is this Law written upon our hearts Jay ? Is this the 'New Covenant' you write about from Jeremiah 31 ? If we, and you, have this 'Law of Love', why do we, and you, bicker and call each other names, and accuse, and write each other off with 'so be it', and say some or all of us are 'unreliable Saints' ? Read through your posts and the responses to you and see the turmoil caused by this very lack. This is expressly why Jesus came as the Christ, because this 'Law' you proclaim is written on our hearts is not in effect yet, by ourselves we can't even keep this simple one !!! See, this is the serious error you have hidden in the Hebrew roots movements 'Law of Love', the aspects to which you adhere. This denies the Grace through Faith we so desperately need, because we cannot keep any Law !!! Any Law attempted to be kept by any man, will, kill us, a concept not adhered to by you or Hebrew roots. We cannot justify ourselves before God by ANY Law we attempt to keep. We are solely, and in totality, justified by Faith in Christ, His Grace, alone, with no other merit.

<snip>

Looking back through your posts Jay, I cannot find even one mention of the word Grace, or that you understand the concept of it. Rather you would use the roots term of 'Law of Love' which is our Father's expressed Gift of Grace through Christ, who is God Himself. Hebrew roots has a lump of leaven in it ruining the whole, and if you continue to proclaim it then this applies to you...

<snip>


David, when I wrote that "no reliable saint" had come to bring correction to what we had been discussing, I was not lumping you in the category of being "an unreliable saint." That was ST's doing, not mine. Neither was I suggesting that other members of this board were unreliable, that again was ST's reinterpretation of what I had said which took it completely out of context and was the "red flag" that he wanted.

Now as regards to my use of the expression, "so be it," I use this when we have reached the point where we are repeating ourselves in our posts and not progressing forward. It again is not a putdown of the person, it just means that we have reached the end of that particular topic in our discussion and that we both are not accepting the other's point of view.

Now to accuse me of not using the word "grace" in this particular discussion when we were discussing who the person was/will be making a covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 becomes irrelevant in our discussion.

It has been suggested that my posts are too long for members to read and understand. If you want every part of Christ's redeeming work include in this topic then it will certainly spiral off topic of the OP.

Now with regards to me being an adherent to the Hebrew Roots Movement, that is simply not true. It is a red herring introduced and perpetuated by others.

It is simply a false argument to discredit me.

Shalom

Jay

* Edit to change the wording from "This It" to Thus it" which is in keeping with the context of what I had written after it.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:47 pm

Exit40 wrote:Now as to the Covenant with Many, consider this...

Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


God our Father foresaw He would justify us through Faith ! This is the Many of the Covenant containing the Promise in Daniel 9:27. Faith in Whom again ? Christ, the Seed of the Promise.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Thus in the Midst of the Week, which we are still in ...

Gal 3:13 ¶ Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith...


Through Christ and His Sacrifice we are justified by Faith in Him, before the Law, and thus us 'Many' receive the Promise hidden in the Law, Grace now revealed...

Gal 3:21 ¶ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.


God's Promise of Blessing to the 'Many of the Covenant' foresaw and now revealed by Grace through Faith in Christ, the Seed of the Promise we now find ourselves in by Grace through Faith, as the Many of the Covenant of Daniel 9:27...

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,...
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, ...


From the very moment of His being cut off, His Crucifixion, in the past until the very moment of the AoD in the future, all in between these two specific times is in the midst of the week, split so Israel could receive according to the Law their punishment of two thousand years put out of the Land. And that the Church would come into being, by Faith the Many, and flourish by the Gift of the Promise of Blessing, the Grace of God in our Christ. We have only the remaining last half of the 70th week to go through in the Prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27.

Can you see it now ???

God Bless

David


David, the views you are expressing here are the traditions of previous commentator.

The view that the prophecy of Daniel 9:27 can be split into two subsections with a very large gap in between is not the view that I would adhere too.

I see Daniel 9:27 running from go to woe over a continuous time period of seven years, not the three thousand or so years that you are suggesting because you are wanting to split the week into two halves. I do see that there is a three thousand or so time period between when the prophecy contained in Daniel 9:26a is fulfilled and when the prophecy in Daniel 9:27 begins. We also have not resolved the person/spiritual entity being spoken about who makes this covenant with many.

Your turning to scripture to show that the fulfilment of Daniel 9:24 and 9:26a is for many does not prove that the "solemn" covenant spoken about in Daniel 9:27a is the "covenant confirming" God's covenant of salvation for all of mankind should they believe in "Him Whom He has sent" through God's Grace.

David, until we resolve the when, who and purpose of the covenant spoken about in Daniel 9:27 we will keep going around in circles and not reach a satisfactory outcome for all.

Shalom

Jay Ross
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:28 pm

Christ did not come to "Strengthen"(Confirm) the Law.

Christ came to Fulfill the Law. The Law of Moses, the Law given at Sinai, is What Christ came to Fulfill, Not Confirm/Strengthen.

Christ came to Confirm/Strengthen (AND Fulfill ) the Abrahamic Covenant, that Covenant of Faith in God. Christ came to End the Law and Curse that was Against Those Many in the Past and Future, who Lived and Live by Faith in God/Christ.

That's what Christ came to do, He did so, and is still doing so.

Please note how this following chapter begins ....

Hebrews 8
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum:

Please note now how the Same Chapter ENDS
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth oldis ready to vanish away.


The Law was never intended to be made "Like New again", Never, Ever.

The Law, came to it's Complete END In Christ. All that Remains of it is In Christ Himself and the Spirit of Life in Him that He has Freely Given to us.
Christ is the End of the Law, to them that Believe.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:59 am

Jay Ross wrote:
By claiming that the Law no longer apples to us, we have made a "New Law" and its yoke is heavier than God's yoke of His Law of Love.


David, please go back and read who I said has made this "new," with respect to time, "Law." I said that is was us, i.e. mankind, that has made this "new Law" that the "Law" no longer applies to us. Now with regards to your claim that I am saying what has been made bold in the quote above is a fabrication on your part and is not what I have said.


I'm fabricating nothing, that is what you said. Maybe you are not being clear in stating what you intend to mean. Just from the plain reading, you are saying we Christians have made a 'new law' that states we are not under the law. Mankind generally does not know Christ therefore make no law like this.That is why I say you are in serious error Jay. Scripture states we are not under the 'Law', rather Grace, the Scriptures is where Christians get this concept. That is why I said you are throwing out the Apostle Paul and most of his writings, which are largely the New Testament. You essentially have said the Apostle Paul is an unreliable Saint for preaching Grace. This is a tenet of the Hebrew Roots movement, which you claim you are not an adherent to, yet espouse their doctrine of legalism and salvation by works hidden in the 'Law of Love'.

How is this Law written upon our hearts Jay ? Is this the 'New Covenant' you write about from Jeremiah 31 ? .... Hebrew roots has a lump of leaven in it ruining the whole, and if you continue to proclaim it then this applies to you...


If we Love God as we claim, then we will keep the "Law of Love" that he has written upon our hearts. We will love those who live around us. When they hunger, we will feed them, when they are naked, we will clothe them, when they are carrying a heavy yoke we will help them to lift that heavy yoke off of them....


Jay, you haven't answered the question of how the Law of Love is now written on our hearts, and why we continually break it, even right here. Law of Love is another Hebrew Roots tenet, subtly changing the intent of what Jesus has done. Now, when Jesus answered the question about the greatest Law/Commandment, He was referring to Himself with His two Commandments...

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 ¶ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


We can do neither with perfection, only Jesus our Messiah and Christ can. Even the Hebrew Roots 'Law of Love' condemns us to death, we are all unreliable Saints because we can't even keep them amongst ourselves ! So to the Cross we go people ! No matter how hard we try to keep the Law, we cannot and so, are condemned to Death !

Except, Jesus as our Messiah/Christ took our sins upon Himself, 'hanging' on the Cross for us all of the 'Law and Prophets' Himself, as the Living Word.

Jhn 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Jesus is speaking of Himself here too. We are the many, the friends He laid His life down for, so we can receive the mystery hidden in the Law and Prophets, the Promise of the 'Seed of the Covenant', revealed as Grace through Faith in Christ.

Now to accuse me of not using the word "grace" in this particular discussion when we were discussing who the person was/will be making a covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 becomes irrelevant in our discussion.


It's only irrelevant to you Jay. A proper understanding in this discussion, the one I am saying Scripture means, reveals Christ as the person who does not 'make a Covenant' as you are stating, rather confirms as Scripture states the covenant containing the Promise. And btw, where is this 'solemn covenant' you mention found in the Scriptures ? I asked you to show us, still waiting. As for me following ST's 'theory, I cannot deny that he is saying the same thing as I am. Why ? Because this is what the Scriptures reveal, to me, and obviously to him first. I agree with the Scriptures. Some time ago ST provided the Scriptures for me to understand, just as I now am providing Scriptures for others to understand. This includes you Jay.

It has been suggested that my posts are too long for members to read and understand. If you want every part of Christ's redeeming work include in this topic then it will certainly spiral off topic of the OP.


You rarely mention any of Christ's redeeming work in your posts. Rather you expound on what you believe the Scriptures intended to say, but somehow got lost in the translations, all about your understanding being more accurate than the general English versions.

I am just happy that I can agree with what is recorded of what my brother understood and taught. It is even more reliable than what you or I or the Hebrew Roots Movement writes but can take a while to get ones laughing matter around.


The time has come to introduce your 'brother', whom you agree with. Maybe his teachings will enlighten us here, as you tend to get us confused from time to time in your lengthy explanations.

God Bless You
'
David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:43 pm

Aaron

It has been suggested that I should apologise to you for "causing" this thread to go off the rails for "daring to disagree" with other members of this board. Has Christ been "central" to the discussion of this thread. I do not believe so. My sense is that Christ has been used in this thread in an attempt to overpower and also confirm the point that they are wishing to make.

My observation of their argument is that those who oppose my point of view, can find other occurrence in the Bible where the English word "many" has been used in other passages and then link those "discovered passage" with the verse under consideration and claim that these "discovered" verse re-enforces their particular views on the verse under consideration. However the context of the "discovered passages" do not match the context of all of Daniel 9:27.

In your OP you did not consider the possibility that the one making the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is a fallen heavenly Host who has been given an army by God to scatter the Israelite Nation to the four corners of the earth as well as raise and destroy the Temple and Jerusalem and the land such that it becomes a desolate and devastated place.

Paul in Ephesians 6:12: - tells us that our battle is also "against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" who exercise their "spiritual dominion" over the people of the earth who chose to live within their respective dominions. Daniel 8 speaks of one such spiritual host of wickedness in heavenly places and he is the little horn. This same little horn is the "prince" who comes with his people, those inhabiting his particular dominion, to destroy Jerusalem. This is that same spiritual entity spoken about in the Book of Revelation 13:11-18: - 11 Then I saw another beast which rose out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. 13 It works great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men; 14 and by the signs which it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast, it deceives those who dwell on earth, bidding them make an image for the beast which was wounded by the sword and yet lived; 15 and it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast so that the image of the beast should even speak, and to cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

In Revelation 13, it is the same "little horn" that we see in Daniel 7, 8 and 9.

But so that the disagreements are not stirred up by this post, I WILL LEAVE IT THERE.

Shalom

Jay.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:38 am

Jay Ross wrote:But so that the disagreements are not stirred up by this post, I WILL LEAVE IT THERE.


With questions requiring proof for your position remaining unanswered. Can I assume then you are unable to answer with Scripture ?

God Bless
David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:09 am

Jay Ross wrote:It has been suggested that I should apologise to you for "causing" this thread to go off the rails for "daring to disagree" with other members of this board. Has Christ been "central" to the discussion of this thread.

Who suggested that the Cause of the thread being temporally locked was FOR"daring to disagree" with other members of this board?

Generally, we all disagree with each other on any number of matters on this forum, especially in a Debate Thread Jay.

let me please remind you of the Actual Cause , The FOR or The REASON you should apologize.
Please notice the difference between what I mentioned as the CAUSE, and what You now claim as the Cause
shorttribber wrote:Jay,
It seems that there sometimes is a pattern that follows your interaction on many threads in the past, and I hope this thread does not come to and end after that pattern.
If that should occur, I hope that you could offer aaron a brief apology, since it really Began as a Good Thread, and I think that your personal insults have become somewhat noticeable.
Thus far, I have been direct, but not insulting. I would hope you could adjust your manner of debate for the benefit of this forum.


Now, where is the mention at all of "daring to disagree", in Any Part of what I wrote regarding The Cause Jay?

It would be good if you could just Admit that your Manner of Debate (the Personal Insults) was at fault, Not the Theological Points of Disagreement.

Personal and Hurtful Insults are :banned: on this forum.
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:50 am

:peace:

Perhaps this topic has run it's course, but I'm willing to give it a little more time if it can find it's way back to the direction it was intended to travel... :wink:

(last chance to continue without the sarcasm and insults)
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:22 pm

Now to accuse me of not using the word "grace" in this particular discussion when we were discussing who the person was/will be making a covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 becomes irrelevant in our discussion.

Sadly, I have been accused of being an adherent of the Hebrew Roots Movement and pushing all of their theology as a false argument against my previously expressed views.

It has been suggested that I should apologise to you for "causing" this thread to go off the rails for "daring to disagree" with other members of this board.


Jay, these types of comments are not conducive to a debate that can be strong and direct without being personal. Challenges to another's comment is the "stuff" debates are made of. But it takes some thought to present those challenges in a way that clarifies one's position without seeing or presenting them as accusations.

Here's an example of an explanation from you that I found very helpful as it was initially confusing.

David the "****" before the "Trib" was my way of expressing any "pre, mid, post, etc. tribulation theology is in error.


I didn't understand the meaning of the **** and wondered why you would post something in a manner that many would find confusing, but I thank you for explaining what you meant. Without the clarification, it meant little or nothing to those following this thread.

OK, so that's why I posted a caution in the post above. I hope it continues as I am finding some very interesting "tidbits" that help my understanding of this subject.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:08 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:But so that the disagreements are not stirred up by this post, I WILL LEAVE IT THERE.


With questions requiring proof for your position remaining unanswered. Can I assume then you are unable to answer with Scripture ?

God Bless

David


David, I have previously commented that you have not provided scripture in this thread that supports your position that it is Christ who has/will make a covenant with many?

I have used scripture that shows that the Little Horn is the prince that comes to Jerusalem with his people to destroy it in Daniel 9:26b and then the Little Horn around 3,000 years later is the one who enters into a solemn covenant with many in Daniel 9:27a but you have not acknowledged that the scripture I used was valid because of "your interpretation" of these section of scripture.

Your justification is that you believe it is Christ who enters into a covenant in Daniel 9:27 with many based on a selection of New Testament scriptures where the word "many" is found.

Just as Donald Trump has entered into a "covenantal agreement" with many in America during the Presidential campaign does not mean that we should consider him to be the "Christ"/saviour of America or the world. Your same argument from scripture can be used with Donald Trump to prove the same outcome because he has made a covenant with "many'" because of the many people who endorsed him to become the President of the USA within the USA.

As per my posts, I have agreed with you that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the "Law"/Testaments/Covenants during His First Advent and by fulfilling these requirements that he also confirmed the "Law"/Testaments/Covenants. I previously stated that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24-26a. Now, there is no mention in Daniel 9:24-2a of a covenant being made by Christ during the time span of Daniel 9:24-26a. This is an argument out of the silence of this scriptural passage. It cannot be proved one way or the other

I also previously stated that because Daniel 9:26-27 is sequential in the prophetic words contained in these two verses and that Daniel 9:27a must follow the fulfilment of Daniel 9:26b, which followed the fulfilment of Daniel 9:26a, and Daniel 9:27a must be fulfilled before Daniel 9:27b can follow.

You have made Christ central to your argument for Daniel 9:27a whereas I do not see that Christ is central to the explanation as what is to happen in the fulfilment of Daniel 9:27a.

There in lines our dilemma. You firmly believe that your understanding of Scripture is the only right understanding that I should have. I do not see it that way.

While you will not accept my view on Daniel 9:27a, and I have argued against your view, we will not resolve this contention by continuing our discussion at the present time.

Perhaps, this thread has run its course after all and until we can spend some quite time to reflect on what has been posted in the thread, the present discussion will not be satisfactory resolved.

Shalom

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:36 pm

Personally, I feel this thread has not run it's course. aaron has started it, and it is he I think that continues interest in researching these matters further.
David and i will be glad to help answer, discuss and debate this very important topic, along with any other members who share in that same interest.

Once again, it has not been said by David or myself that Christ "Makes" a Covenant in vs 27. We have both been abundantly clear that it is Christ that "CONFIRMS" THE Covenant.

To be Absolutely Clear....we (David, Myself, and Mr. Baldy also) say that Christ "Confirms The Covenant", he did not "MAKE A covenant".

The Abrahamic Covenant is What Christ Confirmed BY Cutting the New Covenant.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:26 am

Jay Ross wrote:Your justification is that you believe it is Christ who enters into a covenant in Daniel 9:27 with many based on a selection of New Testament scriptures where the word "many" is found.


No Jay, my argument has abundant evidence that the New Testament use and meaning of the word 'Covenant', is how and why Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:27a. That the word 'many' appears along with that theme is coincidental, and not central to my argument. It is you who misrepresents my position on this and ignores the meat of my thesis here. Readers can tell for themselves what my position is, so please refrain from misconstruing it .


As per my posts, I have agreed with you that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the "Law"/Testaments/Covenants during His First Advent and by fulfilling these requirements that he also confirmed the "Law"/Testaments/Covenants. I previously stated that Christ fulfilled Daniel 9:24-26a. Now, there is no mention in Daniel 9:24-2a of a covenant being made by Christ during the time span of Daniel 9:24-26a. This is an argument out of the silence of this scriptural passage. It cannot be proved one way or the other

I also previously stated that because Daniel 9:26-27 is sequential in the prophetic words contained in these two verses and that Daniel 9:27a must follow the fulfilment of Daniel 9:26b, which followed the fulfilment of Daniel 9:26a, and Daniel 9:27a must be fulfilled before Daniel 9:27b can follow.


Daniel 9:27 is a summation of the previous verses partly, and an explanation of how they are to come about as the 70th week, in the 70th week that is fulfilled, to the mid point by what you have agreed happened, Christ being cut off, His Crucifixion. His Ministry was 3.5 years long, and that is no coincidence. It is the first half of the 70th week.

You have made Christ central to your argument for Daniel 9:27a whereas I do not see that Christ is central to the explanation as what is to happen in the fulfilment of Daniel 9:27a.

There in lines our dilemma. You firmly believe that your understanding of Scripture is the only right understanding that I should have. I do not see it that way.


Christ is central to any argument here as He is whom the Covenant is confirmed by in the weight of NT Scriptures. I am not saying 'I am right and you are wrong'. Accusations like that are the reason the threads you post in get locked, and we don't come to resolution. This is strictly about what the Scriptures say, and I have provided plenty for everyone's perusal. You have a few Old Testament verses that do not prove anything about the Covenant, rather you say it is a solemn covenant and have failed to show where the 'solemn covenant' is written about. Additionally, the NT Scriptures you provided have been of your private interpretation, the Luke 19 Parable of the Talents for instance.

While you will not accept my view on Daniel 9:27a, and I have argued against your view, we will not resolve this contention by continuing our discussion at the present time.

Perhaps, this thread has run its course after all and until we can spend some quite time to reflect on what has been posted in the thread, the present discussion will not be satisfactory resolved.


I used to hold your view until I 'saw the light', and understood by reading the many Scriptures that the Daniel 9 Prophecy is entirely Messianic. My 'view' is that is what Scripture states plainly and abundantly as through Christ Grace is the mystery revealed that was hidden in it. As I said, if satan knew this he would not have crucified Jesus, and we would still be subject to the Law. Now you have repeatedly ignored a couple questions that will explain your position better, as they are what you have stated to be what the Scriptures say. You have explained your personal doctrine of 'God's law of love' being Old Testament Law meant for the ancient Hebrew people, but have failed to establish that in the New Testament, or as a Christian Doctrine for anyone to follow. And the 'solemn covenant', where is that is Scripture please ? As you refuse to answer these questions I presume there is no answer in the Scriptures that is adequate to your position that satisfies even you. So I presume you have dropped out of the conversation as a result.

Time is short today, I will continue with more Scriptures tomorrow if anyone else wants to continue.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:17 pm

Exit40 wrote: That the word 'many' appears along with that theme is coincidental, and not central to my argument.

I would agree that the occurrences of the word "many" is not central to the argument David, but I would not go as far as to call those occurrences "coincidental" either.

Just saying that they are in the place they are in scripture by God's Design, and are in context as pointing to the Confirmation and Fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:27 am

shorttribber wrote:
Exit40 wrote: That the word 'many' appears along with that theme is coincidental, and not central to my argument.

I would agree that the occurrences of the word "many" is not central to the argument David, but I would not go as far as to call those occurrences "coincidental" either.

Just saying that they are in the place they are in scripture by God's Design, and are in context as pointing to the Confirmation and Fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant.


Agreed. Part and parcel to the message, but in itself not confirming, unless weighed with the content of the message. And as I like to cheerfully say....

WHAT AN AMAZING COINCIDENCE !!!!

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:23 pm

Hello

For those who have claimed that I have presented Hebrew Root Movement theology, with regards to "God's Law of Love," perhaps you may be able to help me find the evidence in the Hebrew roots Movement that clearly demonstrates that this is a true claim on your part.

The links to the relevant pages within their Web Site, would also be helpful as well

I patiently await your evidence that shows my error.

Shalom
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:32 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Hello

For those who have claimed that I have presented Hebrew Root Movement theology, with regards to "God's Law of Love," perhaps you may be able to help me find the evidence in the Hebrew roots Movement that clearly demonstrates that this is a true claim on your part.

The links to the relevant pages within their Web Site, would also be helpful as well

I patiently await your evidence that shows my error.

Shalom
Jay, I'm sorry you're having such a problem reading what I write. That is your error. It seems to be a continual failing to correctly read and then respond accurately and stay on topic, which makes discussions difficult, and some kind of resolution impossible. No where have I said God's law of Love is Hebrew roots. Here is what I did say, for the last time, my bold for effect....

You have explained your personal doctrine of 'God's law of love' being Old Testament Law meant for the ancient Hebrew people, but have failed to establish that in the New Testament, or as a Christian Doctrine for anyone to follow. And the 'solemn covenant', where is that is Scripture please ? As you refuse to answer these questions I presume there is no answer in the Scriptures that is adequate to your position that satisfies even you.


You continue to dodge the simple questions Jay, and do so by accusation of false statements. Hardly an honorable debate tactic, but an effective one for those who bite. I guess I'm done then if there are no other questions.

Gods Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:07 pm

Exit40 wrote:My 'view' is that is what Scripture states plainly and abundantly as through Christ Grace is the mystery revealed that was hidden in it. As I said, if satan knew this he would not have crucified Jesus, and we would still be subject to the Law.


This is so very true David, and something that is not usually considered when we examine the design of Daniel 9.
So incredible it is that Daniel was able to use the kind of, can I call it sneaky design, to hide Messiah within the critical parts of the text.
So beautiful and so cleverly done.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:12 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Hello

For those who have claimed that I have presented Hebrew Root Movement theology, with regards to "God's Law of Love," perhaps you may be able to help me find the evidence in the Hebrew roots Movement that clearly demonstrates that this is a true claim on your part.

The links to the relevant pages within their Web Site, would also be helpful as well

I patiently await your evidence that shows my error.

Shalom
Jay, I'm sorry you're having such a problem reading what I write. That is your error. It seems to be a continual failing to correctly read and then respond accurately and stay on topic, which makes discussions difficult, and some kind of resolution impossible. No where have I said God's law of Love is Hebrew roots.


David, in my last post, I did not point my finger at any one in particular when I asked for the link to the Hebrew Root Movements Error on God's Law of Love so that I could consider it. I have tried Googling it but the links do not bring me to the errors being spoken about.

Exit40 wrote:Here is what I did say, for the last time, my bold for effect....

You have explained your personal doctrine of 'God's law of love' being Old Testament Law meant for the ancient Hebrew people, but have failed to establish that in the New Testament, or as a Christian Doctrine for anyone to follow.


Did not a previous post from 13th Feb demonstrate that it is also a requirement of the New Testament?

Jay Ross wrote:Mr Baldy, do you agree with all of these following scriptures?

Matthew 5:43-48: -

Love Your Enemies


"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

OR

Matthew 19:16-22: -

Jesus Counsels the Rich Young Ruler


Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?"

Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

OR

Matthew 22:34-40: -

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

OR

Mark 12:28-34

The Scribes: Which Is the First Commandment of All?


Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"

Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

So the scribe said to Him, "Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."

OR

Luke 10:25-37

The Parable of the Good Samaritan


And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"

So he answered and said, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.'"

And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"

And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."

Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."

OR

Romans 13:8-10

Love Your Neighbor


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

OR

Galatians 5:7-15

Love Fulfills the Law


You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is.

And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

OR

James 2:8-13: -

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


DO these scriptures embrace the concept of God's Law on Love?


Did not the above post show/answer that "God's Law of Love" is also a New Testament requirement.

Exit40 wrote:And the 'solemn covenant', where is that in Scripture please ? As you refuse to answer these questions I presume there is no answer in the Scriptures that is adequate to your position that satisfies even you.


Again I pointed out previously in a post that the process of the Solemn covenant in Daniel 9:27a will mirror the Solemn Covenant process that God entered into with Abraham in Genesis 15:9-11, 17-21 as a confirming sign covenant that Abraham and His descendants will inherit the whole earth in the future. Because the Daniel 9:27a verse is silent as to what the actual covenant entered into with the many people is, it is not possible for us/me to say what the covenant will be, that will be entered into in our distant future in Daniel 9:27a.

Now because I am pointing to the "little horn Beast/fallen wicked heavenly host" as the "person/entity" who will be making this covenant, I would suspect that the covenant that will be entered into will be reflective of the covenantal undertakings that Satan entered into with Eve in Genesis 3, or the influence that Satan exercised over Nimrod in building the Tower of Babel, or the covenantal undertaking that Satan attempted to enter into with Jesus. I suspect that Satan will enter into a solemn covenant whereby People will become God like if they join Him and eradicate God and His Saints from Jerusalem but when that objective has been reached, he will reveal his deception and demand that he alone is God and worthy to be worshipped by all the people of the earth. That it is His harvest to be had.

But this is conjecture on my part as I have no proof from Scripture which indicates what the covenant entered into by the "little horn" will contain.

Exit40 wrote:You continue to dodge the simple questions Jay, and do so by accusation of false statements. Hardly an honorable debate tactic, but an effective one for those who bite. I guess I'm done then if there are no other questions.

Gods Bless

David


David, as shown above I have previously provided answers to your "simple" questions, but it seems to me that you have not recognised them as providing an adequate response.

Shalom

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:05 am

Jay Ross wrote:For those who have claimed that I have presented Hebrew Root Movement theology, with regards to "God's Law of Love," perhaps you may be able to help me find the evidence in the Hebrew roots Movement that clearly demonstrates that this is a true claim on your part.


Maybe instead you could issue a clear refutation of any Hebrew roots theology. Nope, instead you acknowledge correctness to some of their doctrine, but don't come right out to say what that is. However, you cleverly hid it in this quote...

The Essence of the Law Deu 10:12-22

"And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good? Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name. He is your praise, and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things which your eyes have seen. Your fathers went down to Egypt with seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as the stars of heaven in multitude.


This is OT Law, given to the ancient Hebrews. And it is your set up for how following OT Law is actually a Law of Love, and is the Essence of the Law ( of Love ) somehow in the NT also. My bolds...

These speeches are recorded in the book of Deuteronomy, which means the second giving of the law. In Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Moses said, "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, too serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?" The heading in the New King James Version calls this "The Essence of the Law." We recognize that these words were spoken to the nation of Israel, not to us, and that the law which contained them is NOT God's law for us today. Yet, the Old Testament Scriptures are preserved for our learning, and this passage states some general principles that are still true. In simple, easy to understand terms, these verses explain what God wants us to do.


http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-deute ... -12-13.htm

Following OT Law is incorrect theology. To 'walk in all His ways, keep the Commandments, and His Statutes', is the heart and soul of Hebrew roots theology. It is the Law that is important, as if following it gives one a special place with the Lord Jesus, elevates that one to a position of being more respected by the Lord, and therefore others. Then you go on to present NT Scriptures you say support that position, which they do not, because you have twisted and hidden your meaning into the Word of God, notably, His Commandments. The following Scripture does not reflect what you have said, your contention being this Judgement by God applies to us today. In context, this is about the shepherds of Israel and the near end times, and the flock of the people when the Lord saves them, to live in the Millennium. I am bolding a portion of your quote with your added explanation to show your hidden Hebrew roots theology, which have yet to deny.

Ezekiel 34:11-19: -

'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day {i.e. at the very end of the ages}. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep {i.e. the first flock who do not call Me Lord} and sheep {i.e. the second flock who do call Me Lord} and will then separate out the second flock[/i], between rams {i.e. who have a Hebraic heart after God} and goats {i.e. who have a Hellenistic heart after God}. Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."

Please note that I have added some expansion in italics to this passage.


Again this is about Israel His chosen people to live in the land. But here you make this about Christians, separating out the Hellenistic heart from the Hebraic heart. Everyone can google these two concepts you have added to the Scripture to explain your theology, under the Hebrew roots umbrella. Here is a link to an article you say does not exist...

The more we discover the true Hebraic nature of the Christian faith, the more we will be challenged to live according to the Scriptures. It is in those pages that we find the revelation of the Kingdom of God and God's invitation for everyone to enter into a personal relationship with the King and partake of the riches of His Kingdom. It is also here that we find the process by which the King trains, i.e. disciples, those who respond to this invitation. Only those who are discipled can be partakers of the riches of the Kingdom. Those who refuse this training never experience the reality of the Kingdom of God in their lives. Central to this process of discipleship is the renewal of our minds and the reformation of our hearts. God teaches us how to think and feel as He does. In this way he determines whether He can depend on us to respond just like Him, in word, thought and deed, as he entrusts us with more and more authority in His Kingdom. It is this process of learning to emulate God and be entrusted to oversee his kingdom that is at the heart of the Hebraic nature of our faith. The Hebraic faith revealed to us in the pages of Scripture centers on this theme. It is very different than all the other religions of the world. They are centered on manipulating the deity to serve the purposes of "self." The Hebraic heart is centered on personal transformation into the image of the Messiah and entrustment with greater responsibility in God’s Kingdom.


http://howardmorganministries.org/Teachings/44_10.html

Leadership, greater responsibility in the Kingdom, oversee His Kingdom. This is Hebrew roots theology exposed, and by your own words. Actually, you are just using someone else's, hiding the true meaning you intend in in the Scriptures, but adding to them your private interpretation.

James 2:8-11: -

If you really fulfill the according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


DO these scriptures embrace the concept of God's Law on Love?

Did not the above post show/answer that "God's Law of Love" is also a New Testament requirement.


James is speaking of the Royal Law from God, that is the whole of it, showing it cannot be kept. Yet Hebrew roots excuses some breakage of Royal Law as Christ has determined Grace covers this. How can this be a correct theology ? Simply, it cannot, because it is a theology of works for individual attainment of God's favor, not Christ's. It is evident if one has attained His favor, that one is qualified to teach the lesser beings from that lofty position.
Sound familiar anyone ?

But this is conjecture on my part as I have no proof from Scripture which indicates what the covenant entered into by the "little horn" will contain.


I am just a Bible reader who finds things written plainly, eventually. I have not seen this part either, because it does not exist. Posing an important question, why would such an important part of this Prophecy not be written about elsewhere in Scripture for us to find ? God is not a God of confusion, yet it seems we have done just that, confused ourselves, by stating our own impressions of what we think, not what is written. You can't find any evidence of what you propose as a covenant, but I can, in abundance, as those Scriptures were intended for us to find to explain the true meaning of the Covenant confirmed in the midst of the week, by Jesus as our Christ.

So I think I am done now.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:56 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:For those who have claimed that I have presented Hebrew Root Movement theology, with regards to "God's Law of Love," perhaps you may be able to help me find the evidence in the Hebrew roots Movement that clearly demonstrates that this is a true claim on your part.


Maybe instead you could issue a clear refutation of any Hebrew roots theology. Nope, instead you acknowledge correctness to some of their doctrine, but don't come right out to say what that is. However, you cleverly hid it in this quote...

The Essence of the Law Deu 10:12-22

"And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good? Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the Lord your God, also the earth with all that is in it. The Lord delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day. Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. He administers justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the stranger, giving him food and clothing. Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him, and to Him you shall hold fast, and take oaths in His name. He is your praise, and He is your God, who has done for you these great and awesome things which your eyes have seen. Your fathers went down to Egypt with seventy persons, and now the Lord your God has made you as the stars of heaven in multitude.


This is OT Law, given to the ancient Hebrews. And it is your set up for how following OT Law is actually a Law of Love, and is the Essence of the Law ( of Love ) somehow in the NT also. My bolds...


So David you are not acknowledging my posting of the following New Testament Passages, Matthew 5:43-48, 19:16-22, 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-37, Romans 13:8-10 or Galatians 5:7-15 which demonstrate that the whole law is embraced in Loving your God and your neighbour as yourself. The same requirement is also true within the Old Testament.

Exit40 wrote:
These speeches are recorded in the book of Deuteronomy, which means the second giving of the law. In Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Moses said, "And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, too serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, and to keep the commandments of the LORD and His statutes which I command you today for your good?" The heading in the New King James Version calls this "The Essence of the Law." We recognize that these words were spoken to the nation of Israel, not to us, and that the law which contained them is NOT God's law for us today. Yet, the Old Testament Scriptures are preserved for our learning, and this passage states some general principles that are still true. In simple, easy to understand terms, color = blue]these verses explain what God wants us to do.[/color]


http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-deute ... -12-13.htm


The conclusion of the linked page ends with the following statement: -
Conclusion

In short, Moses is trying to encourage the people of Israel to obey God. No, we do not necessarily obey the specific statutes of the old covenant, but God still wants us to obey Him and, in fact, commands us to do so, plainly telling us that the wonderful spiritual blessings which He has for us, both in this life and in the next, are conditioned upon our obedience to His Son. "Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Hebrews 5:8-9). Have you obeyed His word? Are you continuing to obey His will? Remember the Bible tells us that everything which God wants us to obey is " for your good."

Highlighting added for emphasis.


Exit40 wrote:Following OT Law is incorrect theology. To 'walk in all His ways, keep the Commandments, and His Statutes', is the heart and soul of Hebrew roots theology. It is the Law that is important, as if following it gives one a special place with the Lord Jesus, elevates that one to a position of being more respected by the Lord, and therefore others. Then you go on to present NT Scriptures you say support that position, which they do not, because you have twisted and hidden your meaning into the Word of God, notably, His Commandments.


David, I am so sorry that you have not remembered that I have suggested, on a number of occasions in my posts on this forum, that Isaiah 58 provides the gist of what God requires of Israel for them to be redeemed. The whole chapter centres around having a heart after God, to love the people around them as well as God. It does not talk about keeping the whole "Law" of God, particularly the Mosaic Covenantal Law as some of the splinter Hebrew Roots Movement groups may advocate. I certainly have not advocated that as disciples of Christ that we have to keep all of the "Law" of God. That is what others in this thread have added to my words and is not my "personal theological" position concerning keeping the "Law." This position is what Christ also advocated for His disciples as well. Keeping the Laws of God centred around Love.

Exit40 wrote:The following Scripture does not reflect what you have said, your contention being this Judgement by God applies to us today. In context, this is about the shepherds of Israel and the near end times, and the flock of the people when the Lord saves them, to live in the Millennium. I am bolding a portion of your quote with your added explanation to show your hidden Hebrew roots theology, which have yet to deny.

Ezekiel 34:11-19: -

'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day {i.e. at the very end of the ages}. And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country. I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountains of Israel. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."

'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep {i.e. the first flock who do not call Me Lord} and sheep {i.e. the second flock who do call Me Lord} and will then separate out the second flock[/i], between rams {i.e. who have a Hebraic heart after God} and goats {i.e. who have a Hellenistic heart after God}. Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."

Please note that I have added some expansion in italics to this passage.


Again this is about Israel His chosen people to live in the land. But here you make this about Christians, separating out the Hellenistic heart from the Hebraic heart.


Perhaps we should look at just Ezekiel 34:17 and see if there are New Testament verse which describe what is happening in this one verse and see if it is not applicable to the "Christian" in our distant future: -

Ezekiel 34:17: -

'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep {i.e. the first flock who do not call Me Lord} and sheep {i.e. the second flock who do call Me Lord}

Matthew 13:47-50: -

The Parable of the Dragnet


"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. * There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

* See also Revelation 20:11-14


and will then separate out the second flock , between rams {i.e. who have a Hebraic heart after God} and goats {i.e. who have a Hellenistic heart after God}.

Matthew 25:31-46

The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations


"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: . . . <snip>

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . . <snip> . . . And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


Please note that I have added some expansion in italics to this passage as well as including the New Testament scriptures that correspond to the Ezekiel 34:17 verse.


Yes David, I firmly believe that Ezekiel 34:17 is also very applicable to us "Christians." However, your timeline of future events do not, in my humble opinion, match up with what is recorded in the New Testament or the Old Testament scriptures. As such you are having difficulty with what I am posting.


Exit40 wrote:Here is a link to an article you say does not exist...


Thanks David for pointing me towards a source to read articles which lay out some of the Hebrew Roosts Movement views.

Exit40 wrote:
The more we discover the true Hebraic nature of the Christian faith, the more we will be challenged to live according to the Scriptures. It is in those pages that we find the revelation of the Kingdom of God and God's invitation for everyone to enter into a personal relationship with the King and partake of the riches of His Kingdom. It is also here that we find the process by which the King trains, i.e. disciples, those who respond to this invitation. Only those who are discipled can be partakers of the riches of the Kingdom. Those who refuse this training never experience the reality of the Kingdom of God in their lives. Central to this process of discipleship is the renewal of our minds and the reformation of our hearts. God teaches us how to think and feel as He does. In this way he determines whether He can depend on us to respond just like Him, in word, thought and deed, as he entrusts us with more and more authority in His Kingdom. It is this process of learning to emulate God and be entrusted to oversee his kingdom that is at the heart of the Hebraic nature of our faith. The Hebraic faith revealed to us in the pages of Scripture centers on this theme. It is very different than all the other religions of the world. They are centered on manipulating the deity to serve the purposes of "self." The Hebraic heart is centered on personal transformation into the image of the Messiah and entrustment with greater responsibility in God’s Kingdom.


http://howardmorganministries.org/Teachings/44_10.html

Leadership, greater responsibility in the Kingdom, oversee His Kingdom. This is Hebrew roots theology exposed, and by your own words. Actually, you are just using someone else's, hiding the true meaning you intend in the Scriptures, but adding to them your private interpretation.


David I am sorry that you feel that way about the scriptures. It seems to me that we all add "our own private interpretations to the scriptures that we quote." No one is immune from that flaw with our understanding of the scriptures.

Exit40 wrote:
James 2:8-11: -

If you really fulfill the Royal Law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.


DO these scriptures embrace the concept of God's Law on Love?

Did not the above post show/answer that "God's Law of Love" is also a New Testament requirement.


James is speaking of the Royal Law from God, that is the whole of it, showing it cannot be kept. Yet Hebrew roots excuses some breakage of Royal Law as Christ has determined Grace covers this. How can this be a correct theology ? Simply, it cannot, because it is a theology of works for individual attainment of God's favor, not Christ's. It is evident if one has attained His favor, that one is qualified to teach the lesser beings from that lofty position.
Sound familiar anyone ?


But David, what about the other New Testament passages that I had also quoted. Why only pick out one of the passages to comment on. What about all of the passages quoted in that particular post to Mr. B.? Do any of the other scriptures quoted confirm that, what I have called God's "Law of Love," it is also applicable within the New Testament Teaching?

Exit40 wrote:
But this is conjecture on my part as I have no proof from Scripture which indicates what the covenant entered into by the "little horn" will contain.


I am just a Bible reader who finds things written plainly, eventually. I have not seen this part either, because it does not exist. Posing an important question, why would such an important part of this Prophecy not be written about elsewhere in Scripture for us to find ? God is not a God of confusion, yet it seems we have done just that, confused ourselves, by stating our own impressions of what we think, not what is written. You can't find any evidence of what you propose as a covenant, but I can, in abundance, as those Scriptures were intended for us to find to explain the true meaning of the Covenant confirmed in the midst of the week, by Jesus as our Christ.

So I think I am done now.

God Bless

David


David, at least I am being honest with what I suspect the little horns covenant will be about. You on the other hand are expounding your beliefs from the silence of Daniel 9:27a in claiming that the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a is the Abrahamic Covenant ?? but the bible as a whole is silent on this and provides no proof to substantiate your personal view. Because people agree with your expressed view, that does not make your view right. I simply cannot agree with your private interpretation.

Shalom
Last edited by Jay Ross on Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:16 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Because people agree with your expressed view, that does not make your view right. I simply cannot agree with your private interpretation.

How can it be called a Private Interpretation when countless numbers through history have agreed with that interpretation Jay?

Countless numbers before modern prophecy ideas immerged have all agreed, but you call our interpretation a Private One?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:45 am

Jay Ross wrote: It seems to me that we all add "our own private interpretations to the scriptures that we quote." No one is immune from that flaw with our understanding of the scriptures.


Very interesting point you make here Jay Ross - and very candidly, I think it is a most truthful point.

As I've been reading this thread, I can honestly see where there are differences of opinions.

I will repost Daniel 9:24-27, as is it often good to reflect back on what is the object of what is being discussed, in order to get a truer meaning.



Daniel 9:24-27 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Seventy Weeks and the Messiah

24) “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26) Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”


I think that we can all agree that the aforementioned passages of Scripture speaks of both Christ, and the coming Antichrist.

I have conceded before in the past that Daniel 9:27a - "appears" to be mentioning Christ; while the later part 27b is most definitely speaking of the coming Antichrist.

But admittedly, there remains a few questions in my mind. Like: Daniel 9:26 mentions the Crucifixion "AFTER" the 62 weeks (remembering that there was a prior 7 weeks) - so, this could be interpreted as immediately AFTER the 69 week begins the Crucifixion will happen and not upon the completion of the 69th week. Of course "AFTER" the completion of the 69th week would make the Crucifixion begin the 70th week.

So how is this to be interpreted - Is it immediately AFTER the 69th week begins or immediately AFTER the 69th week ends?

The other question I had was the various Translations of Scripture concerning Daniel 9:27. Some Translations could have one to interpret that the "he" mentioned is the "little horn" and some such as the NASB which is a more "word for word" Translation could show the Student that there are definitely Two very different Individuals here - one being the Messiah, and the other being the coming Antichrist. One makes a previous Covenant "Strong" with the Many - and the other "will come" or the Desolator.

So the question would be: Which Translation has it right? Or how is this to be interpreted?

Is the one who makes the Covenant Strong the same as the desolator - are they one and the same - or are we indeed looking at two very different Individuals?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:59 am

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Because people agree with your expressed view, that does not make your view right. I simply cannot agree with your private interpretation.

How can it be called a Private Interpretation when countless numbers through history have agreed with that interpretation Jay?

Countless numbers before modern prophecy ideas immerged have all agreed, but you call our interpretation a Private One?


Again ST, having many people agreeing with a particular interpretation does not make that interpretation "right", It just means that many people are agreeing with each other and that usually is a very safe place to reside in with regards to interpretation because who would dare question a popular opinion/interpretation. Now the real question is, Would God too agree with the popular opinion as to what He was meaning to say? I doubt it. I suspect that He would be greatly disappointed with any Popular Interpretation in question.

I know from the Gospel accounts that Jesus did not agree with the popular beliefs of His day and that did upset many.

But you are welcome to hold to your understanding but for me, it does not fly at all.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:12 am

Jay Ross wrote:David, at least I am being honest with what I suspect the little horns covenant will be about. You on the other hand are expounding your beliefs from the silence of Daniel 9:27a in claiming that the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27a is the Abrahamic Covenant ?? but the bible as a whole is silent on this and provides no proof to substantiate your personal view. Because people agree with your expressed view, that does not make your view right. I simply cannot agree with your private interpretation.


Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and Christ being the desolator.

A few simple questions for you, why in all the previous verses of Daniel 9 which speak of THE Covenant would he suddenly throw in an antichrist type as the desolator ? Another one, have the daily sacrifices been stopped ? In Matthew 24 didn't Jesus say to watch for the AoD ? Why is there no Scripture that says what event will start the 70th week ?

So David you are not acknowledging my posting of the following New Testament Passages...


Why should I bury this thread under a ton of irrelevant scriptures ? Responding to you is difficult enough as you rarely stay on point, and the posts get huge. And frankly, you ignore plenty of information I post. Now Jay, you seem to like the seriously off the wall concepts you think you see in Scripture, I would think as such you would go after this one I am presenting. Simply put, it doesn't matter which time period it occurs in, but somehow causes nearly everyone to struggle with their personal end times timeline just from Dan 9:27. And say something like why don't we listen to God on this ? I have Jay, and I see what I see plainly written in the NT by Paul. This is the Apostle you have to struggle with apparently as it causes issues with your timeline, which you think you see. Fair enough. I think we have covered this topic well from both standpoints, so I am going to ease off for a while, I am struggling with the flu bug going around here.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:26 am

Exit40 wrote: I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this.


Hi David,

In reference to the aforementioned comment you just made. Let me say that I definitely believe that you and Shorty are on to something. I have read and studied the passages of Scripture that you have presented - and at this point, I am just not willing to be so dogmatic about it. However, I will also not rule it out. I just don't know, because I have not been able to clearly connect the dots as you and Shorty have. There are some "holes" and unanswered questions that remain.

I would venture to say that one could make Scripture read and say just about anything that we want, if we believe very solidly in something. Although I wholeheartedly disagree with Jay Ross - and his non denial of the very Heretical "Hebrew Roots" moment - I can also see where he has a very valid point in mentioning that he believes that it is the coming Antichrist that is the "he" mentioned in Daniel 9:27a.

Now, I would like to see someone answer the questions I have posed..........
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:56 am

Mr Baldy wrote: Although I wholeheartedly disagree with Jay Ross - and his non denial of the very Heretical "Hebrew Roots" moment - I can also see where he has a very valid point in mentioning that he believes that it is the coming Antichrist that is the "he" mentioned in Daniel 9:27a.
Now, I would like to see someone answer the questions I have posed..........

There is definitely a Reason to be able to properly understand the "He" in vs 27 as an antichrist. That is a Fact I have never denied either, but as I said in a recent previous post.....
shorttribber wrote:This is so very true David, and something that is not usually considered when we examine the design of Daniel 9.So incredible it is that Daniel was able to use the kind of, can I call it sneaky design, to hide Messiah within the critical parts of the text.
So beautiful and so cleverly done.

The words are written in such a way as to be Reasonably Understood either way, as Messiah or the Pawn (The Loser/antichrist) that God has Allowed to accomplish His Sovereign Will.

And That is what God led Daniel to do, to hide the Real Intensions of God from those who eventually would Allow Christ (BY the Sacrifice of Himself) to "CUT the New Covenant, Fulfill the Mosaic, and Confirm/Strengthen the Abrahamic" all At the Same Time!

If we go back to the ancient writings of Hippolytus and Irenaeus, these did understand the "he" as antichrist.
They believed so Because it Can Be properly understood so.
The thing is, "He" (in vs.27) Can Also be understood as Christ Himself, and is so much more supported by the writings of Paul throughout the New Testament, just as David has been pointing out, and I also have been attempting to show.

I'm going to answer another question you asked a little later today, regarding the Before or After the 69th you mentioned above in another post.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:But admittedly, there remains a few questions in my mind. Like: Daniel 9:26 mentions the Crucifixion "AFTER" the 62 weeks (remembering that there was a prior 7 weeks) - so, this could be interpreted as immediately AFTER the 69 week begins the Crucifixion will happen and not upon the completion of the 69th week. Of course "AFTER" the completion of the 69th week would make the Crucifixion begin the 70th week.
So how is this to be interpreted - Is it immediately AFTER the 69th week begins or immediately AFTER the 69th week ends?


The reading is such that if there is a mention of Anything occurring at the Beginning of the 69th week, it would be written as such. It is not written that way though Mr. B., the words clearly say "And AFTER" the 69th week (62+7)such and such happens.
If it Could be Understood the other way, it should read possibly like the following....
And After the Beginning of the 69th week yada yada yada.

But, because of the way it is written, it could only be properly understood in the three variant ways that the language itself allows.

The Three examples that the language allows are as follows....
(keeping in mind that the 69th week is the adding of the 62+7 )

First example....
Christ was Cut Off on the Last Day of the 69th week....thus the Word "After" the 69th week. [Meaning...Fulfilled After the Complete time of the 69th week is finished]

Second example.....
Christ was Cut Off Four Days AFTER the 69th week came to a finish.

Last example.....
Christ was Cut Off Three and a Half Years AFTER the 69th week came to a finish.

The Last example is the correct one.

So, by the language alone...those three examples above are the only possibilities.

Now, with regard to the "Desolator" that is said to come or comes, in some versions of Daniel 9:27b. This can be answered by the fact that Christ Himself Decreed any Desolation that would come or will come in the future. The end of Mathew 23 is plain on that....and several "Desolators" have been Utilized by Christ to fulfill that.

Next, I will bring out the importance of the two words "Cut" (in vs 26) and "Covenant"(in vs 27) , and how these two words DEFINE the KIND of Covenant that is being referenced in verse 27.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:10 pm

ST

The Daniel 9:26a verse is silent as to how long after the completion of the 69 weeks of years that the Messiah was cut off.

It could have been 1 day or it could have been 33 years, but to claim that it was precisely 3.5 years is the correct understanding is a private interpretation on your part, no matter how many other people may agree with it.

The fact of the matter is that the Bible is silent on how much time passed before the Messiah was cut off.

If I am wrong then please show where in the scriptures that it is so and plainly written.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:41 pm

Jay Ross wrote:ST

The Daniel 9:26a verse is silent as to how long after the completion of the 69 weeks of years that the Messiah was cut off.

It could have been 1 day or it could have been 33 years, but to claim that it was precisely 3.5 years is the correct understanding is a private interpretation on your part, no matter how many other people may agree with it.

The fact of the matter is that the Bible is silent on how much time passed before the Messiah was cut off.

If I am wrong then please show where in the scriptures that it is so and plainly written.


You are right on that Jay, I was only referencing commonly thought dating in that respect in those three examples.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:00 pm

Hi Shorty,

Now lets do take a look at what you have written - as I greatly appreciate your response.

shorttribber wrote:The reading is such that if there is a mention of Anything occurring at the Beginning of the 69th week, it would be written as such. It is not written that way though Mr. B., the words clearly say "And AFTER" the 69th week (62+7)such and such happens.

If it Could be Understood the other way, it should read possibly like the following....And After the Beginning of the 69th week yada yada yada. But, because of the way it is written, it could only be properly understood in the three variant ways that the language itself allows.

The Three examples that the language allows are as follows....(keeping in mind that the 69th week is the adding of the 62+7 ) First example....Christ was Cut Off on the Last Day of the 69th week....thus the Word "After" the 69th week. [Meaning...Fulfilled After the Complete time of the 69th week is finished]

Second example.....Christ was Cut Off Four Days AFTER the 69th week came to a finish.

Last example.....Christ was Cut Off Three and a Half Years AFTER the 69th week came to a finish.
The Last example is the correct one. So, by the language alone...those three examples above are the only possibilities.



I have to respectfully disagree with you - they are NOT the ONLY POSSIBILITIES - and ask you have you considered the following:


If the cutting off of the Messiah occurred in the middle of the seventieth week, it is very strange that the cutting off is said to be “after” the sixty-nine weeks (figuring the sum of the seven and the sixty-two weeks). Much more naturally the text would have read “during” or “in the midst of” the seventieth week, as it does in verse twenty-seven concerning the stoppage of the sacrifices. The only adequate explanation for this unusual turn of expression is that the seventieth week did not follow on the heels of the sixty-ninth, but that an interval separates the two. The crucifixion then comes shortly “after” the sixty-ninth but not within the seventieth because of an intervening gap. The possibility of a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks is established by the well-accepted OT phenomenon of prophetic perspective, in which gaps such as that between the first and second advents were not perceived.


This is an excerpt from the great Theologian Robert H Gundry. I don't agree with everything he writes, but the aforementioned is something that has caused me to pause and take a deeper look at Daniel 9:24-27 in it's entirety.

What say ye Shorty?

There is more to come............. :mrgreen:
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:20 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:If the cutting off of the Messiah occurred in the middle of the seventieth week, it is very strange that the cutting off is said to be “after” the sixty-nine weeks (figuring the sum of the seven and the sixty-two weeks). Much more naturally the text would have read “during” or “in the midst of” the seventieth week, as it does in verse twenty-seven concerning the stoppage of the sacrifices. The only adequate explanation for this unusual turn of expression is that the seventieth week did not follow on the heels of the sixty-ninth, but that an interval separates the two. The crucifixion then comes shortly “after” the sixty-ninth but not within the seventieth because of an intervening gap. The possibility of a gap between the sixty-ninth and the seventieth weeks is established by the well-accepted OT phenomenon of prophetic perspective, in which gaps such as that between the first and second advents were not perceived.
This is an excerpt from the great Theologian Robert H Gundry. I don't agree with everything he writes, but the aforementioned is something that has caused me to pause and take a deeper look at Daniel 9:24-27 in it's entirety.What say ye Shorty?


That's the common gap idea that Gundry is mentioning, but he overlooks such an important consideration....and that consideration is incredibly important.

First, he says the following, "it is very strange that the cutting off is said to be “after” the sixty-nine weeks (figuring the sum of the seven and the sixty-two weeks). Much more naturally the text would have read “during” or “in the midst of” the seventieth week, as it does in verse twenty-seven concerning the stoppage of the sacrifices."

It may seem more "Natural" to him from a Western form of reading, but not unnatural where a "Natural Hebraic" Form is being used. In the Hebraic form, the Qualifying or Descriptive TIME of the AFTER the 69th is Given in verse 27.
In Hebraic prophetic writing, that is exactly the Common Pattern...to bring an idea out through the process of repetitious explanation, especially when the word "And, And, And" is clearly in the text.

The second part of the missing consideration of his idea, and I certainly do respect Gundry, he completely overlooks the Profound Importance of the Crucifixion of Christ Occurring In the Seventy weeks Proper, rather than a during a Gap in between them!
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm

Messiah DOES THE Following in vs 26
karath (kaw-rath')
to cut (off, down or asunder); by implication, to destroy or consume; specifically, to covenant

This Cutting is the SAME ACT of Cutting Described in the Abrahamic Covenant, By Cutting the Calf in Twain.

Following the repetitious Hebraic pattern .....Messiah DOES THE following in vs 27

בְּרִית 'berit
' meaning 'Covenant

He is the Actual Red Heifer where the Type was Consumed "Without the Camp" and it was HIS BLOOD that Now has Sprinkled "Many Nations"

King James Version
Is 52:15
So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Romans 15:21
But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:36 pm

ST

I fear that you are not reporting the actual Hebrew text found in Daniel 9:27 and Genesis 15:18 which has been translated as the English word Covenant. You have mistakenly used the Strong Hebrew Root word instead.

Here are the actual Hebrew words: -

Hebrew Root word Strong Number 1285 בְּרִית
Genesis 15:18 Hebrew text with a StR. N° 1285 בְּרִ֣ית
Daniel 9:27a Hebrew text with a StR. N° 1285 בְּרִ֛ית

Please notice that there are slight difference between each of the Hebrew words.

I fear that you are not reporting the actual Hebrew text found in Daniel 9:26 and Genesis 15:18 which has been translated as the English word make and cut off. You have mistakenly used the Strong Hebrew Root word instead.

Hebrew Root word Strong Number 3772 כָּרַת
Genesis 15:18 Hebrew text with a StR. N° 3772 כָּרַ֧ת
Daniel 9:27a Hebrew text with a StR. N° 3772 יִכָּרֵ֥ת

Source The Hub Bible interlinear bible.

As such the Hebrew Text does not support your argument.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:29 am

Jay Ross wrote:I fear that you are not reporting the actual Hebrew text found in Daniel 9:27 and Genesis 15:18 which has been translated as the English word Covenant. You have mistakenly used the Strong Hebrew Root word instead.Here are the actual Hebrew words: -Hebrew Root word Strong Number 1285 בְּרִיתGenesis 15:18 Hebrew text with a StR. N° 1285 בְּרִ֣יתDaniel 9:27a Hebrew text with a StR. N° 1285 בְּרִ֛יתPlease notice that there are slight difference between each of the Hebrew words.


We've gone over this before Jay...and here was my reply then...from another thread...
............................................................................................................................
"I looked in my Interlinear Bible that i have and found that These two Variations of the word Covenant are as Close to the Same as can possibly be when comparing them to any other variations of 1285.
Where i beleive the only portion of variable exists BETWEEN בְּרִ֣יתand בְּרִ֛ית is that Christ who was Very/Truly God in the Flesh, He was Also Very/Truly Man .
This being the case, the First Example/Variation above is that God was making Covenant WITH MAN (Abraham and His SEED).
And in the Second Example/Variation above, Jesus (God/Man) "In the Flesh" was making Covenant WITH MAN (MANY of MAN to be Gaft INTO Him...THE SEED)

I'll answer regarding the "Cut" a little later
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:25 am

shorttribber wrote: In the Hebraic form, the Qualifying or Descriptive TIME of the AFTER the 69th is Given in verse 27.


I don't know what you mean by this - but this certainly would imply that Christ's Crucifixion occurred in the 70th Week, as verse 27 goes on to say: "But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering". Why did this not say in the middle of the week Messiah would be "cut off" ?
Let me add that Scripture says that AFTER the 69th week - so again, is it AFTER it starts or sometime during :humm:

shorttribber wrote:The second part of the missing consideration of his idea, and I certainly do respect Gundry, he completely overlooks the Profound Importance of the Crucifixion of Christ Occurring In the Seventy weeks Proper, rather than a during a Gap in between them!


Here's where the problem with this is Shorty.........Scripture never says that the Crucifixion of Christ occurs in the 70th week. It plainly states After the 62 weeks (+ the 7 of course) - and there is no specific timeframe given. Furthermore, something that you have seem to have left out is; you too in your theory would also have a "Gap" if your theory proves correct. There would be a remaining 3.5 years. Admittedly Scripture seems to support that only 3.5 years are left to carryout the 6 requirements mentioned in Daniel 9:24 - however, there is also evidence (albeit very little) to support that a future week that remains as well.

Here are some apparent holes in the theory you present (meaning they go against what you have mentioned):

1) Christ's Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant - there would be no need to "Confirm" or make "Strong" a prior one.
2) Messiah is "cut off" AFTER the 69th week - not during the 70th week
3) Temple Sacrifices continued after the Crucifixion - even until the time it was destroyed in 70 AD
4) The "he" is clearly identified as being from the people of "prince who is to come" - Definitely Roman; Not Jewish
5) The "GAP" only makes sense if the Crucifixion occurred AFTER the 69th week but Prior to the 70th week

In closing, what would make your GAP different than the GAP that seems to support Scripture - meaning please indicate why your apparent GAP makes more sense Scripturally?

According to what you have submitted , you want to GAP the 70th week, which appears to be inconsistent with what Scripture has mentioned. Can you please explain?
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:59 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Let me add that Scripture says that AFTER the 69th week - so again, is it AFTER it starts or sometime during

After the 70th starts.....the 69th completed.
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Re: A covenant with many

Postby shorttribber on Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:04 am

Mr Baldy wrote: Furthermore, something that you have seem to have left out is; you too in your theory would also have a "Gap" if your theory proves correct.

The Gap itself is not where the problem exists in Gundry's idea. The problem is that During That Gap, according to Gundry, is when Christ was Crucified! That is not Reasonable.
I say Christ MUST HAVE BEEN Crucified DURING, Properly Inside the Seventy weeks.
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