A covenant with many

[Mr Baldy]

Mr Baldy wrote:
Let me add that Scripture says that AFTER the 69th week - so again, is it AFTER it starts or sometime during

After the 70th starts.....the 69th completed.

Shorty, with all due respect, this is where the problem is. There is a GAP - and it exists whether it is in your theory or the "common" GAP Theory. Both of them cannot be correct.

The "common" theory appears to make more sense - as it states: "After the 69 weeks" - NOT during the Midst or Middle as you seem to be implying.

[Mr Baldy]

The Gap itself is not where the problem exists in Gundry's idea. The problem is that During That Gap, according to Gundry, is when Christ was Crucified! That is not Reasonable.I say Christ MUST HAVE BEEN Crucified DURING, Properly Inside the Seventy weeks.

Shorty, this is NOT what Gundry has mentioned. He clearly presents the "common view" which is according to Scripture in that is clearly states AFTER the 69 weeks. He gives no specific time period. He also explains that it is Prior to the 70th week.

We have to be very careful not to "read into" Scripture to make it say what we want to fit a certain ideology.

This is why I have posed the question: Is the Crucifixion AFTER the 69 weeks begin or AFTER the completion of the 69 weeks?

[shorttribber]

1) Christ's Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant - there would be no need to "Confirm" or make "Strong" a prior one.

The prior one you are referring to is the Abrahamic Covenant, and there is Every Reason for Christ to Cause to Prevail (Confirm), That Covenant.
That's what the scriptures plainly say...He was a to Confirm the Promises Made.

2) Messiah is "cut off" AFTER the 69th week - not during the 70th week

The 70th IS AFTER the 69th...there is no conflict.

3) Temple Sacrifices continued after the Crucifixion - even until the time it was destroyed in 70 AD

We are STILL IN the "Midst" of the week. The sacrifices Could have ended Last Month instead of 70 ad and the prophecy would Still be Literally Fulfilled. Again, no conflict.

4) The "he" is clearly identified as being from the people of "prince who is to come" - Definitely Roman; Not Jewish

Still doesn't matter Who was responsible for the desolation of Jerusalem, whether the Jews themselves OR the Romans.
The Chiastic Structure simply allows the "He" as Christ, it is not written in Western Form, it's Hebraic.
I will explain more on this at length if you wish.

5) The "GAP" only makes sense if the Crucifixion occurred AFTER the 69th week but Prior to the 70th week

I disagree completely, and have mentioned on Many occasions Why Christ MUST have been Crucified IN the Seventy WEEKS Proper...Not in a Gap.

And the "Gap" (Supporting shorttrib) is shown to us as a type and Shadow in the Abrahamic Covenant in Gen 15:18.
I will provide several links to threads that show that at length Mr. B., just don't want to do that here...it makes posts too long.

[shorttribber]

The Gap itself is not where the problem exists in Gundry's idea. The problem is that During That Gap, according to Gundry, is when Christ was Crucified! That is not Reasonable.I say Christ MUST HAVE BEEN Crucified DURING, Properly Inside the Seventy weeks.

Shorty, this is NOT what Gundry has mentioned. He clearly presents the "common view" which is according to Scripture in that is clearly states AFTER the 69 weeks. He gives no specific time period. He also explains that it is Prior to the 70th week.

We have to be very careful not to "read into" Scripture to make it say what we want to fit a certain ideology.

This is why I have posed the question: Is the Crucifixion AFTER the 69 weeks begin or AFTER the completion of the 69 weeks?

Yes his view is common, the most common. He does say that the Gap occurs Between the End of the 69th and the Start of the 70th. And he Does Say that Christ would have been Crucified In That Gap, and that Is Not INSIDE the Seventy Weeks Themselves!

That's the Problem Mr. B......Christ was Crucified IN the Seventy Weeks, Not in a Gap!

[Mr Baldy]

He does say that the Gap occurs Between the End of the 69th and the Start of the 70th. And he Does Say that Christ would have been Crucified In That Gap, and that Is Not INSIDE the Seventy Weeks Themselves!

Where does he state this? Certainly not in what I have provided.

That's the Problem Mr. B......Christ was Crucified IN the Seventy Weeks, Not in a Gap!

I want you to Prove that Christ was Crucified IN the 70th week. I don't think that you can.

Again Shorty, let's find the TRUTH, and not become guilty of "Reading INTO Scripture".

[shorttribber]

shorttribber wrote:He does say that the Gap occurs Between the End of the 69th and the Start of the 70th. And he Does Say that Christ would have been Crucified In That Gap, and that Is Not INSIDE the Seventy Weeks Themselves!

Mr. B wrote: Where does he state this? Certainly not in what I have provided.

Not in what you provided , no it doesn't. I have said that Because I am Very Familiar with Gundry's position.
That's why I said it, but I should have mentioned that to you.

I want you to Prove that Christ was Crucified IN the 70th week. I don't think that you can.

But i'll try my best then.

Again Shorty, let's find the TRUTH, and not become guilty of "Reading INTO Scripture".

I agree, but in saying that, we must Allow other scriptures to support ideas that May Not be Absolutely and Plainly Stated in others that speak to the Same Subject.


Gotta get into the shop, back later

[Mr Baldy]

Not in what you provided , no it doesn't. I have said that Because I am Very Familiar with Gundry's position.That's why I said it, but I should have mentioned that to you.

Shorty, I love your candor brother! I can say that I really admire a person who can tell the truth, and speak with humility. This is not about who is right, or who is wrong, but about learning Gods Word. I don't care for the teachings of those who have some sort of hidden agenda to purposely mislead. There is enough deception going in in the World.

we must Allow other scriptures to support ideas that May Not be Absolutely and Plainly Stated in others that speak to the Same Subject.

I wholeheartedly agree! But again, we must be honest enough with ourselves to allow Scripture to speak for itself - and not "Read Into" it. For years I believed so deep within my heart that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory was correct, inasmuch so that anyone who spoke out against it I vehemently went against them. After years of study, I know that it is a False Doctrine as you and I both know. But it took time, and other Christians with understanding to gently guide me with love, and humility which led me in the right direction to learn the Truth.

This topic is very important - I can emphasize that enough. I am so glad that it is being discussed, as it has presented necessary keys to open up the mystery of the End Times.

[shorttribber]

Shorty, I love your candor brother!

The truth is the most important ingredient, and nothing hidden, even if it could possibly weaken a personal opinion...all evidence should always be on the table.

This topic is very important - I can emphasize that enough. I am so glad that it is being discussed, as it has presented necessary keys to open up the mystery of the End Times.

I agree, oh yes, this is the Absolute Center of Bible prophecy we are discussing in this thread.

That being Realized, I've asked this before, and even started a thread on it, "How could any Christian possibly think that the Crucifixion of Christ could even Possibly occur Outside of the Seventy Weeks proper"?

Just think of that alone for a while before we continue Mr. B.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Shorty, I love your candor brother! I can say that I really admire a person who can tell the truth, and speak with humility. This is not about who is right, or who is wrong, but about learning Gods Word. I don't care for the teachings of those who have some sort of hidden agenda to purposely mislead. There is enough deception going in in the World.

<snip>

Neither do I Mr. Baldy, the problem we all have is to actually know who is telling the truth i.e. who is not misleading us.

This is one discussion where one side is telling the truth and the other side is misleading us.

One of the issues is that people flip/flop between either extremes.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>
Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and Christ being the desolator.

A few simple questions for you, why in all the previous verses of Daniel 9 which speak of THE Covenant would he suddenly throw in an antichrist type as the desolator ? Another one, have the daily sacrifices been stopped ? In Matthew 24 didn't Jesus say to watch for the AoD ? Why is there no Scripture that says what event will start the 70th week ?

<snip>

David please read very carefully what you have written and then reconcile it with Daniel 9:27:b: -

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator."

Does your claim in the quote above mean that it is Christ that is thrown into the Lake of Fire instead of Satan?

[Mr Baldy]

I've asked this before, and even started a thread on it, "How could any Christian possibly think that the Crucifixion of Christ could even Possibly occur Outside of the Seventy Weeks proper"?

Shorty, this is a very good question that you ask......

However, let me first say that there is absolutely nothing written in Scripture that mentions that the 70 weeks are to run consecutively. Even your theory has a "GAP".

Now, to address your question:

I don't believe that anyone could possibly think that the Crucifixion of Christ occurred outside of the 70 weeks. In your theory - (which by the way I have not ruled out) you run Christ's Ministry and subsequent Crucifixion into the 70th week leaving 3.5 years remaining to be fulfilled. I don't think Scripture is recorded that way; in that is says AFTER the 62 weeks + 7 weeks Messiah will be "cut off" or Crucified. This could very well mean that AFTER the 69th week begins, or a few days AFTER it has started but prior to the 70th week - He will be "cut off."

An important thing to consider is Scripture NEVER mentions that Christ will be "cut off" in the 70th week. I believe that this is key to understanding this passage of Scripture. Additionally, the "one seven" is specifically separated from the total 69 weeks.

But lets back up to verse 25 which states this in part:

25) So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks

I mentioned the aforementioned verse to illustrate a point. If you'll notice it says "until" Messiah the Prince.
Well, until WHAT? Until He is Crucified? Until His Ministry Begins? - Can you answer this? (More on this later)

In Closing..........if I appear to be "flip flopping" on this issue as Jay Ross has mentioned - then I am guilty. Because I don't have the answers. That is why I ask specific questions to learn and understand. I love Truth - and despise Deception. For the record, I don't think that ANYONE on this Forum is purposely trying to mislead any other Believer. The problem I have with this particular topic is that the evidence speaks on both sides of the issue. Especially Daniel 9:27 where there appears to be Two different Players. The One who stops the Sacrifice and Offering certainly appears to be very different from the Desolator which shall come.

Also, there is a "GAP" regardless of which theory you choose - so the question becomes:

Where does Scripture place the "GAP" ?

1) Is it in the Middle of the 70th week until the Desolator comes?

2) Or is it AFTER the 69th week until the Desolator makes a FIRM Covenant with the Many for a week?

[Exit40]

<snip>
Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and Christ being the desolator.

A few simple questions for you, why in all the previous verses of Daniel 9 which speak of THE Covenant would he suddenly throw in an antichrist type as the desolator ? Another one, have the daily sacrifices been stopped ? In Matthew 24 didn't Jesus say to watch for the AoD ? Why is there no Scripture that says what event will start the 70th week ?

<snip>

David please read very carefully what you have written and then reconcile it with Daniel 9:27:b: -

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolator."

Does your claim in the quote above mean that it is Christ that is thrown into the Lake of Fire instead of Satan?

KJV Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now what do you think I mean Jay ? Try not to be stupid and insulting in your comments will you ?

[Mr Baldy]

Well, after reviewing this thread I see I am getting no where. Meaning Scriptures are clear enough if you can see the mystery of Grace hidden in the Daniel Prophecy. I really don't know why you are saying the Bible is silent on this. And as far as I can tell, ST is the only one who agrees with this. Clearly, at least to me, there are plenty of Scriptures that state the Truth about this, and I have provided some that are relevant to the Covenant, fulfilled, and
Christ being the desolator.

He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolator."

David, please help me to understand this......as I completely missed this when it was previously posted.
Are you saying that Christ is the Desolator?

If so, then you would also be saying that He is the One who causes the Abomination as well.

[shorttribber]

Mr B.
David is currently having some flu symptoms, and has been getting some rest.

He can explain his comment after that rest himself, but I think I know something of what he would say.

it would be along these lines probably.....

Christ Decreed the Desolation, in Mathew 23, that's evident.

As far as the wording of verse 27, at the end, some translations say "will outpour on the Desolator". That should be, and is translated Correctly in the King James....."that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

That's it, Christ has utilized Several Actors, in the Past and will in the Future AOD also utilize antichrist to accomplish the Desolation He Has Decreed. God's wrath will be Outpoured on Those Actors, Those who Actually DO the Desolating, that Christ Himself Decreed/Determined.

This is a Restatement ( Keep in mind Repetitious Form) of vs 26 wherein it is written, Desolations are Determined.

Praying that David recovers quickly also

[shorttribber]

missed your post David Your actual response was much shorter, but in essence, the answer was the same.

Hope you're feeling better brother.

[shorttribber]

In Closing..........if I appear to be "flip flopping" on this issue as Jay Ross has mentioned - then I am guilty. Because I don't have the answers. That is why I ask specific questions to learn and understand. I love Truth - and despise Deception. For the record, I don't think that ANYONE on this Forum is purposely trying to mislead any other Believer. The problem I have with this particular topic is that the evidence speaks on both sides of the issue. Especially Daniel 9:27 where there appears to be Two different Players. The One who stops the Sacrifice and Offering certainly appears to be very different from the Desolator which shall come.

Mr B.
This paragraph that you wrote above is so beautiful and pleasing to read. These things you mention are true, the scriptures that we are discussing were written in such a way as to Double-cross God's enemies who would Have Christ Crucified. Eventually God Himself will Allow that Final Revelation of His Will. The TIMING of That Revelation is tied to Chapter 12..and these words....
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book
, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth
for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

He "Sware by Him that Liveth"....Sound Familiar? (Read Genesis 22:16,Revelation 10:6,and Hebrews 6:13)

And also Mr. B., did you read these following words that I posted earlier....

This is so very true David, and something that is not usually considered when we examine the design of Daniel 9.So incredible it is that Daniel was able to use the kind of, can I call it sneaky design, to hide Messiah within the critical parts of the text.So beautiful and so cleverly done.

I will be back later to answer those questions you have Mr. B.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

Now what do you think I mean Jay ? Try not to be stupid and insulting in your comments will you ?

David, I am sorry you feel that I was being stupid and insulting in my comments. In truth, your statement that I quoted was not the first time that you had made that particular comment about Christ being the Desolator.

If asking for clarification of what you have written is being stupid and insulting, then so be it, I will let the matter rest with you.

[Jay Ross]

<snip>

"I looked in my Interlinear Bible that I have and found that These two Variations of the word Covenant are as Close to the Same as can possibly be when comparing them to any other variations of 1285.

<snip>

I am sorry that I am asking this question about your post on Feb 21, but it is important to know the answer.

You said that you "looked in your Interlinear Bible," but you did not reference which Interlinear Bible it was that you had consulted in determining your conclusion.

Would you be so kind as to provide the name or source and when it was published or copyrighted, of your Interlinear Bible.

Thank you.

[shorttribber]

<snip>

"I looked in my Interlinear Bible that I have and found that These two Variations of the word Covenant are as Close to the Same as can possibly be when comparing them to any other variations of 1285.

<snip>

I am sorry that I am asking this question about your post on Feb 21, but it is important to know the answer.

You said that you "looked in your Interlinear Bible," but you did not reference which Interlinear Bible it was that you had consulted in determining your conclusion.

Would you be so kind as to provide the name or source and when it was published or copyrighted, of your Interlinear Bible.

Thank you.

Yes, I will Jay...need to find that info...I will post it in a couple hours.

[burien1]

Sadly, we find it time to close this discussion since some of the comments are still in violation of board rule #1.

Edited to add;
We will keep this closed for a few days and give everyone a chance to refresh yourselves, then it will be reopened. When things get heated, we need to step back for awhile, but this is a very good study for all of us.

[burien1]

Just a reminder;
1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.