A new look at the 4th Seal

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A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby kirthril on Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:07 am

7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

The reason I am bringing this up is because all throughout Christianity we have so many different interpretations and views on scripture. This has led to over 30,000 sects of Christianity despite just 1 Bible. I am not here to challenge the validity of any sect but perhaps to provide a little insight (maybe) on just how so many can take one book many different ways. And for that we need a lesson on reading comprehension.

It is my view that the bible is what it is, it says what it says, and it means what it means. No interpretations needed because everything that is symbolic, metaphorical, allegory is mentioned beforehand or after just as such. All meanings of all symbolic language is explained either beforehand or after. If one does not read the whole bible one cannot understand language written in later books, when the explanations for such are in earlier books.

Secondly, addition and subtraction of words. A single word in any bible verse carries with it huge amounts of understanding. Leave out a single word, and the meaning of a verse can change entirely. Add a single word and the meaning of an entire verse can change entirely. Change a single word and the meaning of an entire verse can change entirely.

It is for these reasons I believe we have so many different opinions, sects, denominations within Christianity despite reading the same book.

So to the topic at hand. I will admit straight up, that what I am about to write may be right or wrong (after all it does deal with future fulfillment) and it all hinges on just 1 word: "to".

As you all know I am in the Islamic AC middle eastern kingdom camp. And I know y'all probably tired of me beating y'all over the head with it, but this one seal changes meaning entirely when you look at the word "to" in verse 8 and then take a look at the Islamic world and the realignment that will take place within it.

They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth

Traditional Christian prophecy teachers have drilled it into our heads that seal #4 announces the death of 1/4 of the worlds population by war and the spread of famines and plagues that are natural side effects of war. We are taught that war, famine, and plague kill 1/4 of earths population as a result of seals 1-3.

But what does it really say? Does it say 1/4 of the earth was killed "BY" war, famine, plague, OR does it say 1/4 of the earth is given power "TO" kill using war, famine plague.

AHA! See what adding/changing words does? Scripture states that power is given to one-fourth part of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague. This aligns with Daniel and Revelation when they state that the beast empire is given authority to rule over the peoples of the earth and subject them to their god through threat of war and death.

What does that have to do with the things I have been saying in other threads? Well take a look at this:
1. There are 195/196 nations on earth.
2. There are 57 members of the OIC. Organization of Islamic Nations
3. Ezekiel 38 states that the merchant nations of Tarshish and Dedan (Arabian peninsula) speak out against the AC
4. We also know (or from what I glean) is that Iraq and Syria will cease to be nations, losing national sovereignty since the bible doesn't mention Syria or Iraq as separate nations or entities at this time. Only Assyria is mentioned leading me to believe both nations will be taken over (we see this happing now).

57 Islamic nations. Now subtract Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Yemen, Oman.
49 Sovereign Islamic nations.
49/196 = 25%. One quarter of the earth.

See that? One quarter of the earth given power via the beast empire to wage war on everyone else. And it all hinges on the word "to".

We mistakenly read it like this:
They were given power over a fourth of the earth to be killed by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth

That right there, the addition of "be" completely changes the meaning of the verse and NOW it means 1/4 of the earths population will die.
.............

In closing, am I absolutely 100% certain that all the Islamic nations will eventually unite under the AC and thus constitute that 25% save for the exceptions? No, I am not sure. I have also stated that there will be other nations that will join the AC's Islamic alliance. And there are many muslim nations (such as those of central Africa) which are to weak to wage war and might not join in. Either way 25% vs 75%.

Whichever way, I truly believe that the 4th seal is NOT announcing the death of 1/4 of earths population, but rather 1/4 of earths nations wage war against the rest of the earth bring with them famine (economic misery) and disease (natural effect of war).

And I believe simply because of the word "to".

And if one word can do this^, then just how much of the bible are we misunderstanding/not getting all we can out of prophecy related or non-prophecy related simply because we add or subtract a single word...

:a3: :a3:
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Jericho on Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:12 am

57 Islamic nations. Now subtract Iraq, Syria, Kuwait, Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Yemen, Oman.
49 Sovereign Islamic nations.
49/196 = 25%. One quarter of the earth.


I think that's bit of a stretch, those 49 countries do not even make up a quarter of the world's population. If we took all the people in the 10/40 window, which encompasses more than the countries you include, the population comes out to 865 million Muslims. 550 million Hindus. 275 million Buddhists. 865 million Muslims is not 25% of 7 billion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10/40_Window

There's nothing to me that indicates that pale\green rider is a group of people or even Islamic, except for maybe the color of the horse, but even that is not conclusive evidence.

This aligns with Daniel and Revelation when they state that the beast empire is given authority to rule over the peoples of the earth and subject them to their god through threat of war and death.


Let's just say you are correct, how would they accomplish this? The middle-east doesn't have the military capabilities to make war with the rest of the world. They have no aircraft carriers or nukes (except for Israel).
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby kirthril on Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:59 am

I think that's bit of a stretch, those 49 countries do not even make up a quarter of the world's population. If we took all the people in the 10/40 window, which encompasses more than the countries you include, the population comes out to 865 million Muslims. 550 million Hindus. 275 million Buddhists. 865 million Muslims is not 25% of 7 billion.

It says one fourth part of the earth. That does not have to mean population. It could. But i take it to be nations. But you also have to remember many will join the beast and worship its god and turn on their neighbors as signs of allegiance.

There's nothing to me that indicates that pale\green rider is a group of people or even Islamic, except for maybe the color of the horse, but even that is not conclusive evidence.

I mentioned nothing of the riders/colors and what they "could" represent. The rider is Death, and that's that. The color of the horse does not mean much to me other than like red represents the war horse, white represents the kings horse, and black represents the horse of famine, green/pale simply is Death. It states it as so and I look no further into it.

My mentioning of islam is simply a reference to many of the debates I have here. The main point of my topic is that the 4th seal is speaking of 1/4 of earth warring against the other 3/4 and not the 1/4 dying as we all have been taught. Of course, hinging on that one word "to". My inference of Islamic nations is a example of what could take place based on what I believe is going to happen.

Let's just say you are correct, how would they accomplish this? The middle-east doesn't have the military capabilities to make war with the rest of the world. They have no aircraft carriers or nukes (except for Israel).

That's a very secular way of thinking Jericho...

"If God is for us, who can be against us?"... If God is not for you...
God, through the bible has repeatedly warned he can make strong nations weak and weak nations strong. He can make strong nations utterly succumb to those vastly inferior to them. Still wondering why 15 years and counting we still can't win against Al-qeuda and the Taliban?

Also, scripture makes it clear this is a religious war. Religion has no national boundaries, no language barriers. Thus why nation vs nation (ethnicities), kingdom vs kingdom, neighbor vs neighbor, kids vs parents, husband vs wife, boss vs employee. Its civil war, those who follow the religion of the AC vs those who don't. You don't need a massive military to take over the world. You just need enough people in every nation to strike fear and terror to make nations and people submit accordingly. Once again, the trumpets tell us the number of people who will take up the call and kill 1/3 of mankind. 200 million.
...............

But as I stated the main point is not to talk about Islam's role, but rather how the 4th seal is misread because of simple reading error. :itsgood:
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 01, 2016 12:40 pm

They . . . who are they? They are given power to kill . . .

Death and hell are given power to kill . . . 1/4 of the earth, geographical territory.

Should we equate "Islam" with "death and hell"?

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby 4givenmuch on Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:12 pm

Perhaps the spirits behind Islam...
Seek Humility!
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby kirthril on Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:31 pm

mark s wrote:They . . . who are they? They are given power to kill . . .

Death and hell are given power to kill . . . 1/4 of the earth, geographical territory.

Should we equate "Islam" with "death and hell"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Death and hades, death being a state of being and hades being the underworld aren't the ones causing war, famine, plagues, and death. It is the beast empire and its subjects and worshippers who are trampling the earth. The beast is given authority to act however it wants for 42 months. For 42 months it will wage war and trample the earth. For 42 months it is given power over the saints to overcome and defeat them. For 42 months it is given power to subject all nations, peoples, languages to its authority or face death. Those who submit to it go where? Hades/hell.

Should you equate Islam with death and hell? 4givenmuch has a good answer:
Perhaps the spirits behind Islam...


The power to wage war. The power to halt economies through war. The power to bring plague and disease through war. And the power to bring death and the afterlife is given to 1/4 of the earth. These "spirits" or horsemen are the forces behind the beast empire and religion and its followers. And they are given power over one quarter of the earth.
...........

As I stated in my post, I am not sure 100% how it plays out, although I provided a example, I take 1/4 to mean 1/4 of nations on earth
Jericho has suggest it means population of the earth
You have suggested geographic landmass of the earth

My suggestion is, is that whichever it is, that 1/4 wages war on everyone else and not the traditional thinking that at the 4th seal 1/4 of earths population dies.

I believe that the transfer of authority mentioned in seal 4 is the same authorization given to the beast kingdom. Because notice what happens right after both authorizations are given: persecution of the saints.
..............

With regards to islam, as I pointed out in my initial post, I don't think its coincidence that scripturally the nations left out: Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Yemen, Oman, and Arabia, 6 protesting the war, and 2 having no power at all due to take over make the total number of possible Islamic nations to ally with a Islamic AC 1/4 of earths total nations.

but this is why we watch.
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:09 pm

kirthril wrote:I believe that the transfer of authority mentioned in seal 4 is the same authorization given to the beast kingdom. Because notice what happens right after both authorizations are given: persecution of the saints.

:a3:
kirthril wrote:Should you equate Islam with death and hell? 4givenmuch has a good answer:Perhaps the spirits behind Islam...

:a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Exit40 on Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:04 am

Kithril, I came to this same conclusion quite a while ago, most recently calling the isis murderers the wild beasts of the earth. And the population numbers are the following : approx 1.6 billion muslim now equals approx 23% of the world population. I know it says one fourth of the earth, and maybe population isn't being referenced, but I think this in one 'coincidence' that may just have some meaning. A beast rises from the earth, why not count people as rising from the earth too. Could be they are all the spawn of satan ? I don't know, but not all Jews are Jewish either. I've read in Jeremiah and Isaiah, forgetting the specific verses right now, which have given me the insight into this, and actually in this time also. So until something better comes along I am going with the islamic paradigm answer to the Fourth Seal.

God Bless You

David

PS. I should elaborate more but I am out of coffee. :bag:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:11 am

It's interesting that if you look at the regions of the earth where death by "sword, famine and pestilence"" occur most frequently it amounts to about one quarter of the earth geographically. Centered primarily around the Mediterranean region.I maintain that the first four seals are not future events but have been removed and have been at play upon the earth since Jesus was raised. I do not agree that the pale horse and it's riders represent any particular group of people, they are spiritual in nature but they do however have earthly counterparts. Right now ISIS is one of them. Just like the angelic beings in Ezekiel were commanded to slay the disobedient, they had an earthly vehicle that they influenced to accomplished their task which was the army of Babylon. (Ezekiel 9)

And if you look throughout the Old Testament you will see the precedent for these methods used to destroy the rebellious this is just one example, there are others:

Ezekiel 14:21
21 For thus says the Lord God, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!


The rider of the fourth horse kills with the effects of the first three horses and their riders, and they have been at play even in Old Testament times (See Zechariah 1). The difference under the new covenant is that they are now released to do their work by the Lord Jesus Christ after His death and resurrection.

So I would agree that ISIS and Islamic Jihadists are being employed by the horsemen to accomplish the task assigned to them, but that does not mean that other geopolitical forces could not be used to accomplish their task as well.


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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby kirthril on Mon Jul 04, 2016 6:23 pm

The rider of the fourth horse kills with the effects of the first three horses and their riders,

agreed

and they have been at play even in Old Testament times

agreed in that these are the 3 some of methods God uses to punish. Whether the seals of Revelation occur throughout history or are meant specifically for the end times is a whole 'nother debate.

I do not agree that the pale horse and it's riders represent any particular group of people, they are spiritual in nature but they do however have earthly counterparts.

You contradicted yourself in just one sentence. Its not like people are just going to fall over dead at the 4th seal from some unseen force. It is indeed a specific group of people that will bring war, famine, plague to the nations of earth. Debate on which groups they are, but these horses/spirits are working through humans. Wether they are the EU elites, muslims, UN conglomerate, a NWO super global government... So yes, the riders do represent a group of people, a most ungodly group at that.
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:48 pm

You contradicted yourself in just one sentence. Its not like people are just going to fall over dead at the 4th seal from some unseen force. It is indeed a specific group of people that will bring war, famine, plague to the nations of earth. Debate on which groups they are, but these horses/spirits are working through humans. Wether they are the EU elites, muslims, UN conglomerate, a NWO super global government... So yes, the riders do represent a group of people, a most ungodly group at that.


I don't see it that way, the riders and horses do not represent any specific people, they themselves are distinct from any earthly entity and are what I believe to be spiritual beings that influence geopolitical forces on earth.

There is however a correlation between them and who they influence to accomplish their task, no contradiction. And yes it is likely they will influence some ungodly force to accomplish their goal, be it ISIS, Islamic Jihadists or some other group or nation of people. I don't think we disagree, I guess the word "represents" is what I take issue with.

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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:27 am

kirthril wrote:As you all know I am in the Islamic AC middle eastern kingdom camp.


Just one question for you Kirthril........

With all the mayhem that the Islamic World creates, wouldn't it be a bit oxymoronic to have an Islamic AC?
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby kirthril on Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:46 am

Actually Mr. Baldy it makes it a perfect recipe:

1. We are told in Genesis that the sons/daughters of Ishmael would be a wild people like a (donkey). Every mans hand against his brother and against the nations. All nations will hate them.

1A. This is the middle eastern Arab. It is from them Islam spawned. And as you can tell many peoples/nations have been grafted into their chaotic destiny.
.............

2. We are told that the AC's empire attacks the strongest nations.

2A. This logically concludes that his empire is not the strongest grouping of nations. So a Middle eastern alliance would fit.
................

3. We are told that the AC's empire is a united but a divided kingdom.

3A. Muslims, united under allah but divided in civil conflict for 1500 years now between Sunni and shia.
3B. They can and will unite, just like they did under the ottomans, putting aside their differences, albeit temporarily if the call is given to conquer the world.
.........

4. We are told the AC's empire has both brittle and strong pieces.

4A. Turkey: 2nd largest military in NATO, Strongest middle eastern military
Iran: Strong middle eastern military, soon to have nuclear capability
Egypt: 2nd strongest middle eastern military
Pakistan: strong military and nuclear capability
Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Lebanon... weak militarily
.............

5. We are told the AC and his religion commit the ultimate blasphemy (denial of Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and sets itself up in pure opposition to the Lord of Heaven.

5A. There is only one group of people and only one religion on earth formed with the explicit purpose of denying the God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of Christians and Jews.
.....................

So as you can see, the Islamic world does indeed match up. Even if I am totally 100% wrong on all this, one simply has to look at Islamic prophecy and see that as a complete mirror to ours, the muslims are being set up to worship the AC and his god. And as such, will be a menace under him as they are the most violent group of people on earth (referencing genesis and Ishmael).
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:35 pm

kirthril wrote:Actually Mr. Baldy it makes it a perfect recipe


kirthril wrote:There is only one group of people and only one religion on earth formed with the explicit purpose of denying the God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of Christians and Jews.


Hi Kirthril,

I thank you for responding. I really admire your tenacity in attempting to prove this Islamic paradigm - but I wholeheartedly believe you are wrong. Most of what you have mentioned fits a European Antichrist, nevertheless I won't be dogmatic about my views as well.

Now, you have mentioned that "only one group of people and only one religion on earth formed with the explicit purpose of denying God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit of Christian and Jews." Well, all I can say about your aforementioned statement is that it lacks validity as there are and have been MANY Spirits of Antichrists.

1 John 4 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Testing the Spirits

4) Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3) and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4) You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5) They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6) We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.


I personally find it very, very hard to believe that an Islamic Antichrist will arise in the Last Days (meaning as he who is mentioned in Revelation 13). If one were to think about it, I believe that this group of individuals (Radical Islam) along with many others; will certainly present a problem with what has been predicted to happen in Scripture in that "Nation will rise against Nation" - and "kingdom against kingdom"; "and wars are decreed until the end." And this is certainly not enough Evidence to support an Islamic Antichrist.

Pay attention to what Scripture has mentioned about the 4th and Final Beast that will arise and trodden down the Whole Earth. This is why the European Union is the Front Runner. The prince who is to come will arise from this Empire.
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Re: A new look at the 4th Seal

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:11 am

I personally find it very, very hard to believe that an Islamic Antichrist will arise in the Last Days (meaning as he who is mentioned in Revelation 13). If one were to think about it, I believe that this group of individuals (Radical Islam) along with many others; will certainly present a problem with what has been predicted to happen in Scripture in that "Nation will rise against Nation" - and "kingdom against kingdom"; "and wars are decreed until the end." And this is certainly not enough Evidence to support an Islamic Antichrist.

Pay attention to what Scripture has mentioned about the 4th and Final Beast that will arise and trodden down the Whole Earth. This is why the European Union is the Front Runner. The prince who is to come will arise from this Empire.


Personally I think this is a better fit for the AC, at least currently, though with time another might fit the bill.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/ChristNAM.html

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