His People/Thy People

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His People/Thy People

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:26 pm

“Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people
from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)

Are we to believe that this prophecy pertains to ONLY "his people"(Physical Jews)?

Of course not.

Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Why then are so many people so adamant that Christ's, or Daniel's (Jewish by Physical Decent) "People" are only spoken of in Daniel 9:24?

As is said in Mathew 1:21, we are not to conclude that Only "His People" shall be saved from their sins by Christ.
We should not also conclude that "Daniel's People" are spoken of only in the same manner of speaking in Dan. 9:24.

Because Other People are not Specifically mentioned in either text does not exclude them In the overall intended meaning of those texts.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby david on Mon Mar 14, 2016 9:03 pm

I think Paul is saying in Romans 9 that it does not matter what seed or linage you are from. The new covenant is by faith even before Issac or his offspring were born and had a chance to do right or wrong. It's by grace for all, and "...who ever believes in him will not be put to shame."

I think when the angle is saying "upon thy people" he is talking to Daniel, so I think Daniel would understand this to be His people.

Is it just me or was it the last time I was here we were talking then about 9:27, anyway maybe the most intriguing verse there is, at least for some.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Exit40 on Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:41 am

Even in Daniel's time it was possible to become a Jew or Hebrew by adoption through certain rites,rituals, and confessions. This has been the way it is, written from the very beginning of the Old Covenant, and through Christ certainly into the New Covenant. Paul wrote eloquently about the natural and grafted in branches in a manner easy enough to be understood. In the times we find ourselves dare we separate from Israel that which the Lord has granted them and us with them ? They are His Chosen, whether we like it or not, whether we want to interpret that way or not. God has not changed to fit our time, nor should we. They will be the physical nation of Priests and teachers in the next Millennium in the Holy Land, by His design.

We've had some really good discussions on the Daniel 9 Prophecy lately david. Much more Scripture has come to light lately to help us understand this.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:20 am

If anyone is interested, Wade Burleson wrote quite a lengthy post on Daniel 9 a couple years ago. I haven't read it recently, but at the time, I found it very helpful.

link
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby mark s on Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:51 am

shorttribber wrote:
Because Other People are not Specifically mentioned in either text does not exclude them In the overall intended meaning of those texts.


Hi ST,

If we stick with what IS mentioned in those texts, we can arrive at the meaning OF those texts. To your point that Jesus saves others as well as His own people, the Israelites, this is affirmed in OTHER texts. We don't need to stretch the meaning of "His people" to mean "all people" to do that, since we have other texts to do it for us.

In the place where Matthew wrote, "His people", quoting the angel, might it be possible that this was the particular fact that the angel intended to impart, that Jesus was sent to be savior of the Jews?

Remember when the disciples were surprised at Cornelius' conversion, and remarked how God was saving the gentiles also? It didn't seem to have been known to them before that time. So what was the angel saying to Joseph?

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Exit40 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:53 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:If anyone is interested, Wade Burleson wrote quite a lengthy post on Daniel 9 a couple years ago. I haven't read it recently, but at the time, I found it very helpful.

link


Hi Abiding. Interesting indeed, and I agree with almost everything he wrote. What concerns me is the second half of the 70th Week, from the Crucifixion until what he claims is the end of the Week, Stephens stoning and martyrdom. Up until that point he has given both Scriptural and historical documentation for the dates and meanings of the previous fulfillment's of the Prophecy. So why does he not for the purported end of the 70th Week here then ? I was hoping for a better definition than the one I hold, but none is given here.

Does anyone have proof the end of the 70th Week already has happened ? If so, bring it so we can examine it.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Ready1 on Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:13 pm

This scripture came to mind as well

Mat 15:21 And going out from there, Jesus withdrew to the parts of Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 And behold, a woman of Canaan coming out of these borders cried to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is grievously vexed with a demon.
Mat 15:23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and begged Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries after us.
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me!
Mat 15:26 But He answered and said, It is not good to take the children's bread and to throw it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, True, O Lord; but even the little dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' tables.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! So be it to you even as you wish. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Just observing.

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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Mark F on Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:10 am

shorttribber wrote:“Thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people
from their sins.” (Matthew 1:21)

Are we to believe that this prophecy pertains to ONLY "his people"(Physical Jews)?

Of course not.
I think in the context given yes, and if we continue in the progression of time in the gospels Jesus Himself discriminates between the Jews and Gentiles as Ready 1 already quoted. So in the fullness of time we learn it will at some point include others, near the end of Jesus ministry He said in John 10:16 "Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." Are we to deny that this implies a distinction that needs to be rightly understood?

I might add that this one flock is not necessarily to be understood as strictly an entity on earth. We must all agree that there are more members of the Church in heaven than on earth. Hebrews 12 makes a clear distinction that the unified body is not to be only understood as a people group on this earth, or as one simple group, it is multifaceted.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


This passage seems to differentiate the Hebrews and Gentiles who were saved before the work of the cross as well, ("the spirits of just men made perfect") And isn't the book of Hebrews explaining to the Hebrews that the Church is a New thing, not an extension of Judaism?

Distinctions are made in Scripture is my overarching point.
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Why then are so many people so adamant that Christ's, or Daniel's (Jewish by Physical Decent) "People" are only spoken of in Daniel 9:24?

As is said in Mathew 1:21, we are not to conclude that Only "His People" shall be saved from their sins by Christ.
We should not also conclude that "Daniel's People" are spoken of only in the same manner of speaking in Dan. 9:24.

Because Other People are not Specifically mentioned in either text does not exclude them In the overall intended meaning of those texts.


This isn't a strict reference to those of faith, it is a reference to a Nation and how God will work through them salvation for those who are His.

Your people is used about 120-130 times in all of Scripture, in every instance it is a distinction between groups of people. Almost exclusively it used to separate the pagans from the Jews. Paul makes a distinction of sequence in Romans 1:16 and twice in Romans 2:9-10 saying that the gospel is "for the Jew first, and also for the Greek." God was clear also in speaking to Ananias in Acts 9 the distinction made of Israel even after Christ's ascension. Act 9:15 "But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel."

Why would Jesus then tell His disciples this?
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'


Why would we NOT think then that Matthew 1:21, Matthew 10:5-7, Daniel 9:24, and many other places the context sets the interpretation?
Mark

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Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Mar 24, 2016 4:54 pm

Exit40 wrote: What concerns me is the second half of the 70th Week, from the Crucifixion until what he claims is the end of the Week, Stephens stoning and martyrdom. Up until that point he has given both Scriptural and historical documentation for the dates and meanings of the previous fulfillment's of the Prophecy. So why does he not for the purported end of the 70th Week here then ? I was hoping for a better definition than the one I hold, but none is given here.

Hi David,

I have subscribed to Marv Rosenthal's magazine, "Zion's Fire" for years and today the featured article is about the chronology of His coming. He mentions Daniel's 70 weeks and I'll pass this excerpt on for you to consider.

The Word of God teaches that after the 69 sevens of years (or 483 yrs.) from a known starting point in 445 B.C. until A.D. 30, the Messiah would be cut off (killed) (Daniel 9:26). The 70th, or final seven-year period does not consecutively follow the first 69 weeks. The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ not only terminated the first 69 weeks of years prophesied by Daniel, but it also established the Church Age.


He continues by referring to Matthew 24 where Jesus commences His description of Daniel's 70th week in Matthew 24:5 and concludes His description in Matthew 24:35. Rosenthal continues by saying within those verses Jesus divides the 70th week into 3 clearly identified parts which lead to His second coming in power and glory.

The 3 identifiable parts (of the 70th week) are 1) the beginning of birth pangs, 2) the Great Tribulation and 3) the Day of the Lord.

The article is 7-8 pages long but I thought of your comment/question when I read this particular part.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Exit40 on Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:56 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
The Word of God teaches that after the 69 sevens of years (or 483 yrs.) from a known starting point in 445 B.C. until A.D. 30, the Messiah would be cut off (killed) (Daniel 9:26). The 70th, or final seven-year period does not consecutively follow the first 69 weeks. The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ not only terminated the first 69 weeks of years prophesied by Daniel, but it also established the Church Age.


The article is 7-8 pages long but I thought of your comment/question when I read this particular part.


Hi Abiding. I tried to find the article, no luck. Can you post a link or further explanation of this view ? Thanks.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:14 am

Exit40 wrote:Hi Abiding. I tried to find the article, no luck. Can you post a link or further explanation of this view ? Thanks.


David, you won't find this particular article posted since it's in the most recent (Mar. 2015) magazine. I posted that excerpt from my hard copy which only arrived yesterday.

But previous issues of Zion's Fire magazine are available in pdf format here along with a long list of articles featuring the book of Daniel. Scroll down those listed on the left of the page to see if any are of interest to you.

Marv is pre-wrath and regarding the 3 signs listed in my previous post, he believes the rapture occurs following the Great Tribulation before The Day of the Lord (God's Wrath) and that the Great Tribulation begins at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. He believes Christians will be present during part of the Great Tribulation and will be persecuted by the antichrist. But for their sake it will be shortened and the church will not be present for the "Day of the Lord".

If you are interested, you can subscribe to the quarterly magazine on the internet at the link I posted. Hope this helps.
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Re: His People/Thy People

Postby Exit40 on Sat Mar 26, 2016 7:45 am

Abiding, I did read through a bit yesterday, in particular his article about Daniels end times visions, just hitting the highlights. I hold a different interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27, he calls this, and rightly so, the backbone of Prophecy. Thank you.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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