When Does Gog-Magog occur?

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When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:15 pm

It is my opinion that the relative timing of Gog-Magog can be determined approximately by the condition of Israel before and after Gog-Magog as described in Ezek 38-39.

Prior to Gog, Israel is described as recovering from war, whose people have been gathered from many nations, who live in safety, living at the center of the land. After Gog God regathers all Israelis to their land, and He considers them unfaithful to Him when they lived in the land in safety prior to Gog.

These conditions described in Ezek 38-39 rule out certain time periods for the occurance of Gog-Magog. A Gog-magog is mentioned in Rev 20 in which all the nations gather against Jerusalem and are consumed by fire at the end of the millenium. The conditions described during the millenium would rule out this time period as being that of the Gog-magog of Ezek 38. At the beginning of the 1,000 years all Israel is regathered to the land as Isa 11 describes, and there is no evidence that Israel leaves the land and requires another regathering at the end of the millenium. Also during the 1,000 years Jesus dwells in their midst in Jerusalem as Zech 14 describes, there is no evidence that they are unfaithful to God while living in safety during the 1,000 years when Jesus is there.

Therefore, Gog-Magog in Ezek 38-39 does not occur at the end of the 1,000 years, and indeed it is described differently than the Gog-Magog of Rev 20.

Some consider armageddon, prior to the millenium, as the time of Gog-Magog. Prior to armageddon Israel does not live in saftey in the center of the land, rather during the 3.5 years prior to armageddon Israel is taken to a place in the wilderness prepared by God, as Satan pursues Israel, the woman, in order to destroy her, as described in Rev 12. Also the description of Israel as being unfaithful and living in safety noted in Ezek 39 after Gog would also not apply, as the survivors would likely be the 1/3 'faithful remnant' of Zech 13.

At the time of the AOD or just prior to the AOD, the middle of the 70th week, prior to going into the wilderness, it is possible that Israel could be living in safety in the center of the land, as it appears that the temple is rebuilt that the AC sets himself up in. But after the AOD Israel flees into the wilderness, she is not regathered into the land, as Ezek 39 describes as occurring after Gog, not until after armageddon, 3.5 years later. And Gog-Magog is not described as a 3.5 year event, the armies gather and are then destroyed.

This would then point to Gog-Magog as occurring sometime prior to the midpoint of the 70th week, significantly prior to that time as there must be a full regathering prior to the AOD (the Lord will reach out His hand a second time to reclaim the remnant.. from Assyria..lower Egypt..Upper Egypt...Cush..Elam..Babylonia..Hamath..and from the islands of the sea..Isa 11) Isa 11 describes a 2nd regathering from all these nations during the millenium, and as this type of regathering has not occurred in the past (the post Babylonian regathering was limited and not as widespread), it would appear that the first regathering alluded to in Isa 11 from all these nations in is process now, likely to be completed after Gog-Magog, likely in the near future.

Ezek 39 describes a 7 year period of weapons burning in Israel following Gog-Magog, which could suggest, considering the timing parameters discussed above, that Gog-Magog takes place at the beginning of, or just prior to, the 70th week. Also from Isa 17 it appears that the destruction of Damascus event may be associated with and likely lead into, Gog-Magog.

And to address some objections, in Ezek 39 God states that He will no longer let His name be profaned, which is not a reference to any thing Israel might do from that point on. According to Ezek 36 the 'profaning' of God's name refers to Israel being sent into captivity by God and the nations mocking God that He could not protect His own people- 'I dispersed them among the nations..and wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, These are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' After Gog-Magog God does not send Israel into exile, He sends them into the wilderness to protect them, at least the 1/3 faithful remnant.

Also, after Gog, Israel will know that God is the Lord their God, but Ezek does not indicate that Israel, at least in part, does not once again fall away from God. Israel knew that God was the Lord after being delivered from Egypt and His display at the mount, right up until they were worshiping the golden calf a short time later.

Also, Ezek 38 describes Israel as a land of unwalled villages, which they are currently. Walled villages with 'gates and bars' would be a reference to the thick walls and gates used for defense in the past, made useless in the present by artillery. Israel does currently have 'walls', but the wall is on the border of the nation, it is a border wall and not the type of wall described around 'villages' in Ezek 38.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:23 am

I am one who believes Ezekiel 38/39 is the old testament version of the New testament Armageddon of Revelation. I think they are one in the same. Without going into extreme detail, as there are other threads where I explain my opinion, I believe the AC and his religion and his empire is Islamic, thus why the surrounding nations in Ezek are all muslim today.

Some consider armageddon, prior to the millenium, as the time of Gog-Magog. Prior to armageddon Israel does not live in saftey in the center of the land, rather during the 3.5 years prior to armageddon Israel is taken to a place in the wilderness prepared by God, as Satan pursues Israel, the woman, in order to destroy her, as described in Rev 12.

I believe this to be a mistake by most people. People think that there must be absolutely ZERO threat to the people of Israel. But we live in a world of violence, murder, terrorism. By safety, I believe the bible means securely, fortified, strong defense. Doesn't mean Israel wont be attacked or suffer from terrorism, but rather people will be able to go about their daily lives without extreme fear.

Also I believe that Gog-Magog is a large campaign waged over several years rather than a 1 day spectacular event that most experts think. The ending finale where Gog and his armies are destroyed, is Armageddon, where the rest of the nations of the world have also been drawn into the fighting (mentioned in Daniel).
But after the AOD Israel flees into the wilderness, she is not regathered into the land, as Ezek 39 describes as occurring after Gog, not until after armageddon, 3.5 years later. And Gog-Magog is not described as a 3.5 year event, the armies gather and are then destroyed.
Ezekiel 38/39 speak of a regathering before Gog/magog. I think you have a typo there. Also it is not ALL of Israel that flees after the AOD, only those who heeded the warning. The majority of Israel will remain in Israel. There are actually 2 remnants. One in the wilderness, and one holed up in Jerusalem that Jesus himself will provide a passage to escape. So technically, even though a portion of Israel flees, the people as a whole never leave the land.
Ezek 39 describes a 7 year period of weapons burning in Israel following Gog-Magog, which could suggest, considering the timing parameters discussed above, that Gog-Magog takes place at the beginning of, or just prior to, the 70th week. Also from Isa 17 it appears that the destruction of Damascus event may be associated with and likely lead into, Gog-Magog.

That is a neutral passage as it can support both pre-trib invasion and Armageddon. After Armageddon, there will need to be a clean up as well. Burning the weapons of war for 7 years fits in well with the huge mess that will encompass all Israel and the surrounding nations following the DOTL. Nothing says those 7 years can't extend into the millennium.

And to address some objections, in Ezek 39 God states that He will no longer let His name be profaned, which is not a reference to any thing Israel might do from that point on. According to Ezek 36 the 'profaning' of God's name refers to Israel being sent into captivity by God and the nations mocking God that He could not protect His own people- 'I dispersed them among the nations..and wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy name, for it was said of them, These are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' After Gog-Magog God does not send Israel into exile, He sends them into the wilderness to protect them, at least the 1/3 faithful remnant.

Also, after Gog, Israel will know that God is the Lord their God, but Ezek does not indicate that Israel, at least in part, does not once again fall away from God.

I use these same verses to support the Armageddon theory. But you should notice it mentions not just Israel, but ALL nations will recognize God after this event and HIS NAME will be profaned NO LONGER. No more means no more. Absolute. If gog/magog is pre-trib, then there is still 7+ years of God's name being profaned by the nations.
........................

I would also like to point out that Gog is killed and his body is buried in Israel along a certain path. The bible also tells us that the AC will be killed and he and his armies will be buried in a pit so that travelers who pass by will look down and say "Is this the man who claimed to be God? The one who brought terror to the nations". The AC and Gog both die and are both buried in a open pit or valley that travelers must walk by.

The method of destruction is the same, fire and brimstone, Hail, earthquake, every man against his brother both at Ezekiel and Revelation. So to is the "feast".
...........

Of course, this only makes sense that they are one in the same if one believes in a Islamic anti-Christ and his regional empire. But that is where I stand. The similarities are much too exacting for them to be separate events. Especially the proclamation by God himself that he will no longer allow his name to be profaned.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:56 am

From your post in another thread:
So the point remains, Gog is buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive and cast alive into the lake of fire.

The AC's body will remain on earth, I will have to find the passage, but as I stated above, the AC's body will be left for all to see as they pass by Jerusalem along the highway from Egypt to Assyria. They will look down on him and ask "Is this the man who claimed to be God? The man who terrorized the nations". Casting alive into the lake of fire, I believe that his final judgment will happen while he is alive, right then and there. While he is alive he will be sentenced to the lake. All other unbelievers as we know have to wait in death before their final judgment.

According to Rev 13 the AC speaks boastfully and has authority over every nation for 42 months. Gog leads an army of a relatively small number of nations, clearly not every nation.
He has been given authority by his god to rule every nation, but he will never actually be able to control every nation. Daniel describes nations to his north, south, east, and west that are constantly at war with him. If the AC controls every nation, then who is he warring with? I believe this to be a mistake, that many think the AC's control is global, it is not, it is regional, just like Gog.

this authority would likely be over the armies that come from the Abyss in Rev 9, armies that are not human but demonic with abilities beyond humankind. This is in contrast to Gog, who leads a limited number of human forces from the named nations.

The AC does not control those locusts who torment people for 5 months. Those locusts were given instructions to not touch those with the mark of God on them, only unbelievers. Seems counter productive for the AC to command demons to torture his own people. Both Gog and the AC will only lead human armies.

And if the US falls, who will Turkey side with, willingly or unwillingly? The EU? Russia? ISIS? Who then becomes the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal?

The US will not fall. Weaken yes, but will remain strong. Daniel and other prophets mention that God will bring the strongest nations against the AC. Turkey will eventually by peace or force end up allied with Iran, Lebanon, Egypt (by force), Libya(who surrenders), Sudan (who surrenders), Algeria, Syria/Iraq (Assyria), Tunisia, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan and maybe some of the former soviet satellites.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:16 am

kirthril wrote:The AC's body will remain on earth, I will have to find the passage, but as I stated above, the AC's body will be left for all to see as they pass by Jerusalem along the highway from Egypt to Assyria. They will look down on him and ask "Is this the man who claimed to be God? The man who terrorized the nations". Casting alive into the lake of fire, I believe that his final judgment will happen while he is alive, right then and there. While he is alive he will be sentenced to the lake. All other unbelievers as we know have to wait in death before their final judgment.


Hi Kirthril. Here is the passage you seek...

Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.


I too believe the ac and gog are one and the same. And here post gog/magog he is obviously dead and buried as the worms get him. But, he is as the other dead, weak as they are, alive in the grave, haydes, hell, the abyss, but still alive, captured and sent there. The following describes the close relationship between gog/ac and lucifer/satan once there.

¶Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!......
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


The thought suddenly occurs, lucifer may be another entity than satan, like a second in command perhaps, another name for him being the King of Babylon. I did a quick search and it looks to be extensive to show this might be so. But the point is, he is dead and buried, but unburied later as his dead body, 'his raiment of those slain', is cast out. Yet he is 'alive' but not joined with the other dead in hell either, leaving a possibility of then being cast from there into the lake of fire as spoken of. Bit of a stretch for sure, but still possible if we consider lucifer to be different from satan, as satan remains in the abyss/pit/hell for the Millennium. I'm not trying to confuse the matter, but I do believe there are more individuals involved than we currently seem to think.

Hunkering down now for the expected onslaught of rebukes. :wink: Maybe we can sort this out.

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:35 am

Yes exit, that is one of the passages I speak of. Both the Devil and the AC referred to here. Notice the AC does die and his body is seen for all those that pass by. So he is not literally thrown into the lake of fire where nothing remains of his physical self. But rather, his soul is sent straight there, right after being captured, unlike the normal way of being sent to hades first.

The one I was referring to is this:
A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

28 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘In the pride of your heart
you say, “I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
in the heart of the seas.”
But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
though you think you are as wise as a god.

3
Are you wiser than Daniel[a]?
Is no secret hidden from you?

4
By your wisdom and understanding
you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
in your treasuries.

5
By your great skill in trading
you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
your heart has grown proud.

6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘Because you think you are wise,
as wise as a god,

7
I am going to bring foreigners against you,
the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
and pierce your shining splendor.

8
They will bring you down to the pit,
and you will die a violent death
in the heart of the seas.

9
Will you then say, “I am a god,”
in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a mortal, not a god,
in the hands of those who slay you.

10
You will die the death of the uncircumcised
at the hands of foreigners.

I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:


“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13
You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.

14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15
You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.

16
Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.

17
Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.

18
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.

19
All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’”

Both passages, yours and mine speak of the same thing. Satan and the AC tied together, being defeated, killed and left to rot in a open grave so that people will be able to stare and wonder. Also notice in the passage I have listed (as it pertains to our debate in another thread), that nations will be brought to come against and kill the AC/Gog in tandem with God pouring out his wrath (a two pronged attack if you will).
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:44 pm

The trap that many have come to be entangled in is the popular expectation of when Christ is returning permanently to the earth to rule the Messianic Kingdom in our near future.

It is my belief that at the end of this present age before the 1,000 years that Satan is incarcerated in the bottomless pit that Christ will be seen fleetingly as a King afar off doing battle against the rebellion of the Kings on the face of the earth at the Place known as Armageddon. During this battle Israel will also consider if they with their army can defeat Jesus and His heavenly army if and when he might decide to also attack Jerusalem as well. In their consideration of their circumstances they seek out Christ's terms of peace while he is still a great way off. (Luke 14 31-33)

It is also my belief that the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and also Satan, and the kings of the earth and their armies will be judged and together they will be put into the earth, that is into the Abyss which is also described as the Bottomless Pit to await the time of their final judgement, (Isaiah 24:21-22), at which time they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

We are also told that at this time, Israel repents of their iniquity against God in the form of their idolatry practices. (Romans 11:25-27) This occurs after the fullness of the time of the heathen Gentiles trampling the Sanctuary for a period of 2,300 years has been completed.

We are also told that during the time of the kings of the fifth segment of the statue, that has dominion/control over the land of the Chaldean's in the prophecy of Daniel 2:33-45, that the God of heaven will establish an ever lasting Kingdom which shall never be destroyed.

We are also told in Daniel 7:13-14 that after the judgement of the fallen heavenly hosts, i.e. the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, with one of them "slain" and the other three allowed to live for a season and a time, that the Son of Man is given dominion over all the peoples of the earth that they should worship Him.

In Revelation 9 we are told that the Bottomless pit is unlocked (After 1000 years as detailed in revelation 20) and that locusts came out to torture those who will be alive at that time and the four fallen "heavenly" angles where also released and summoned to kill a third of mankind.

Revelation 12 then goes to the time of Armageddon and describes the judgement of the fallen heavenly hosts and Satan in heaven, as also described in Isaiah 24:21-22. At the beginning of Revelation 20 we are told specifically that Satan is locked up in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years which incidentally is where all the other fallen heavenly hosts and the kings of the earth have been gather also.

The Question being asked in this thread is, "When Does Gog-Magog occur?"

It is my view that this time of battle will occur after the Bottomless pit is unlocked during the little while period of Revelation 20. Also the four faceted beast of Daniel 7:19-26 and Revelation 13:1-10 will be released from the Bottomless pit during this little while period to mislead and to kill the peoples of the earth who are alive at that time.

The little horn of Daniel 7:8 and 11 and 20-22 is also describe in Revelation 13:11-18 and its time of judgement is at the end of the Millennium Age just before the time for the Saints to receive possession of the kingdom.

If this is true then Revelation 19:20-21 occurs towards the very end of the little while period of Revelation 20 when the false prophet, the little horn, and the beast is thrown into the Lake of Fire just before Satan experiences the same fate.

At this time Isaiah 24:23 tells us that the moon and the sun will be ashamed and will be darkened and as also described in Joel:2-10 and 3:15.

It is my understanding that it is at this time that the Son of man will be seen coming on the clouds to return to the earth to judge the peoples of the earth who are left. To separate the Goats from the lambs in the final judgement.

This also fits with the understanding that Satan is also dealt with when Christ returns to the earth.

Shalom

Jay Ross
Last edited by Jay Ross on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:32 pm

Kirthril, Exit, it appears that we interpret scripture differently. As the interpretation of prophetic scripture is not always clear, one might give the passage that has the clearest statement the most weight. When Ezek 39 states that Gog will have a burial place in Israel with all his hordes, that statement is pretty clear that Gog is killed and buried. When Rev 19 states that the AC is captured and cast alive into the lake of fire, that also is a pretty clear statement.

These 2 passages would appear to be the most clear statements about what happens to the AC and Gog in all of scripture. One then might consider that any other statements might need to be interpreted considering these clear statements.

There are also 2 passages that associate Satan with the destruction of a ruler in prophetic OTscripture, Isa 14 is one as you noted, the other is Ezek 28. In Isa 14 the ruler who is described in association with Satan is killed and buried in a mass grave- 'you are cast out of your tomb..you are covered with the slain...like a corpse trampled underfoot you will not join them in burial.'(in a tomb)

In Ezek 28 the ruler associated with Satan is consumed by fire- 'So I made fire come out of you and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes..in the sight of all who were watching.'

One might then associate Gog with the ruler of Isa 14 and the AC with the ruler of Ezek 28, if one considers the clear statements made in Ezek 39 and Rev 19 about the clearly different means of destruction of these 2 separate individuals.

But that would depend on how one chooses to interpret scripture.

It is interesting that Satan is intimately associated with 2 different individuals, described as if they were Satan himself. Satan is the entity that connects the 2 individuals, which is perhaps why they are described similarly.

K, profaning the name does not appear to mean what you think it means, again check Ezek 36:20.

Armageddon and Gog-Magog are described differently in scripture. At Gog, a limited number of named nations gather in the land and are destroyed by God when He sends plague and bloodshed and burning sulfur, destruction from a distance. At armageddon 'all nations' are gathered to Jerusalem and are destroyed by Jesus directly by the sword of His mouth and He tramples the armies of the nations. The list of differences is long, but it does appear that Gog is a limited event involving a limited number of nations while armageddon involves all the nations of the world in which God comes to earth to deal directly with men, demons and fallen angels, it is the battle of the ages.

As far as the fall of the US, at the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, there is a nation associated with the US in Isa 18 that suffers significant destruction. Also in Jer 49 in association with the destruction of Damascus, A Babylon in Jer 50-51 is destroyed, which many associate with the US. And it appears that the destruction of Damascus occurs before Gog-Magog, as the nations associated with Damascus are not described at Gog-Magog, suggesting that they are dealt with previously.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:09 pm

Kirthril, Exit, it appears that we interpret scripture differently

But that would depend on how one chooses to interpret scripture.

As is often the case. As Exit states, we will know when it happens. No problem.

As far as the fall of the US, at the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, there is a nation associated with the US in Isa 18 that suffers significant destruction. Also in Jer 49 in association with the destruction of Damascus, A Babylon in Jer 50-51 is destroyed, which many associate with the US. And it appears that the destruction of Damascus occurs before Gog-Magog, as the nations associated with Damascus are not described at Gog-Magog, suggesting that they are dealt with previously.

That nation that suffers destruction along with Damascus is Mystery Babylon. It is Arabia, the desert by the sea, mentioned in Isaiah "A lament for the Desert by the sea". Isaiah 48 I believe. Elam, Iran is the one who destroys MB. Syria is not mentioned militarily, nor is true Babylon (Iraq) militarily, in either Gog/magog alliance or the empire of the AC in Daniel because both nations will lose their sovereignty. They are destined to be gobbled up by turkey and Iran. Only Assyria is mentioned in prophetic scripture, rather than the two individuals.

Which is why I believe Gog/Magog to be the war that ends with Armageddon. The alliance of Gog/Magog is the exact same group of nations Daniel mentions as aligning with and being part of the empire of the AC. Iran, Turkey, Libya, Sudan, Algeria mentioned in both Ezekiel and Daniel, Egypt, Lebanon, Assyria (Iraq/Syria), Palestine being mentioned in Daniel. All these nations part of the revived 8th empire (4th major kingdom) that consist of nations from the 7 previous ones.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:53 am

Hi 1WW. Yes, we do look at it differently, and have had a number of discussions over the years, usually beginning with gog/magog and proceeding from there. This stems from a difference in 'paradigms' I believe, with perhaps neither of the popular ones being totally correct. In this regard I think Jay Ross is on to something, although he has not convinced me of the total correctness of his interpretations either. It is good to hear from you again.

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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:17 pm

David, i would agree that there will be an Islamic paradigm, but the Islamic is not the last paradigm, just the next paradigm. IMO the Islamic event will set the stage and clear the decks for the rise of the AC. And Gog-Magog will be seen as armageddon without the return of Jesus, resulting in a great 'falling away' and the rise of Judaism and the rebuilding of the Hebrew Temple, which the AC sets himself up in.

Years ago there was an opinion that the destruction of Damascus would be the first event, and Gog-Magog would follow later and be dominated by Russia, but is was not clear how the events could be related. Now Russia is in Syria and Putin is talking about strengthening the nuclear forces and hoping he won't have to use the nukes. The US and its allies appear to be in opposition to Russia and Iran and their allies, which could explode and result in the destruction of Damascus and surrounding areas further resulting in Putin possibly becoming the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, as Turkey is already under threat from Russia, who'd a thunk it? The table appears to be set, the pieces in place, and the breath is being held. Has the fuse been lit?
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:02 am

1whowaits wrote: The US and its allies appear to be in opposition to Russia and Iran and their allies, which could explode and result in the destruction of Damascus and surrounding areas further resulting in Putin possibly becoming the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, as Turkey is already under threat from Russia, who'd a thunk it?


Umm, well, me and a few others who see the antichrist as gog and also see him dealing with forces from the north and east as Russia and China, a potential that goes unseen by the many who don't want to see this as Scriptural proof of Russia/Putin not being the major entity in the coming battles against Israel. Russia and Israel are ally's, something that can change no doubt, but I think it unlikely. Check out Turkey Thread for a few recent articles that reflect the current situation.

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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:31 am

Years ago there was an opinion that the destruction of Damascus would be the first event

which could explode and result in the destruction of Damascus and surrounding areas further resulting in Putin possibly becoming the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal


I want to comment on Damascus. If one reads the entirety of Isaiah 17 rather than just the first few verses, we get a different picture from what we have been taught. Just like I now believe Gog/Magog to be the war of the tribulation that ends with Armageddon due to re-reading and analyzing, I also now believe that the destruction of Damascus is not a primary or fore-leading event.

When one reads Isaiah 17, we see that it isn't just Damascus that is destroyed. But all of northern Jordan becomes desolate. All of northern Israel becomes desolate with only a few survivors. Eventually all of Israel becomes desolate "the glory of Jacob will fade" "the fat will waste away from the body". It speaks of Israel abandoning its strong cities as well as those who came against israel. "In that day" ALL will look to the maker and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel. The nations will rage like a roaring sea, but they are gone by morning.

The only time in bible prophecy Israel becomes "desolate" and the nations rage against it is after the AOD during the final 3.5 years. "In that day" is a very ominous sign. "All eyes will look to the Holy One of Israel" is a very ominous sign. The nations that rage against Israel will be there in the evening but gone in the morning is a very ominous sign.

It is my understanding now, unlike what I have been taught, that the destruction of Damascus happens on the DOTL or very close to.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:08 am

kirthril wrote:I want to comment on Damascus.


Hi Kirthril,

I would like to comment on Damascus as well. Let's take a look at what 1whowaits has stated:

1whowaits wrote:Years ago there was an opinion that the destruction of Damascus would be the first event, and Gog-Magog would follow later and be dominated by Russia, but is was not clear how the events could be related. Now Russia is in Syria and Putin is talking about strengthening the nuclear forces and hoping he won't have to use the nukes. The US and its allies appear to be in opposition to Russia and Iran and their allies, which could explode and result in the destruction of Damascus and surrounding areas further resulting in Putin possibly becoming the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, as Turkey is already under threat from Russia, who'd a thunk it? The table appears to be set, the pieces in place, and the breath is being held. Has the fuse been lit?


Then you wrote this:

kirthril wrote:If one reads the entirety of Isaiah 17 rather than just the first few verses, we get a different picture from what we have been taught. Just like I now believe Gog/Magog to be the war of the tribulation that ends with Armageddon due to re-reading and analyzing, I also now believe that the destruction of Damascus is not a primary or fore-leading event.


1whowaits did mention the "Destruction of Damascus and surrounding areas". Now, putting any particular End Time Paradigm aside, and just simply looking at the FACTS - I ask the question: What's going on in this region of the World "Today" as being viewed, and could it relate in accordance with Scripture?

Well I personally see Damascus being Destroyed as I type this. So, is it indeed "a primary or fore-leading event"? Well, from what I can see - it would appear so. I don't believe that Damascus will survive this. The situation that is currently going on with Russia/Putin most certainly appears as if he is setting himself up to become the Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal.

But I guess we shall see.....
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:24 am

Mr. Baldy:

I will liken the destruction of Damascus to Isaiahs prophecy against Egypt or the prophecy against Arabia or Jordan. They are not one day events but rather something that occurs over time and then culminates at the end. I believe that what we are seeing today is just the beginning, but its total absolute destruction won't occur till later than we think. The reason I say its not a fore-telling event is because most think its absolute destruction comes before the rise of the AC, the trib, the rapture etc...

I know he referenced surrounding areas, but Isaiah talks of Israel weaning away and becoming desolate in conjunction to this. Israel's desolation only comes during the final 3.5 yrs. It even mentions that "some gleanings will remain" of Israel, survivors. The destruction of Damascus occurs simultaneously with the holocaust of Israel.

Also Mr.Baldy, I don't know if you have seen my posts in other threads, but I do not believe Russia to be Gog/Magog so yeah my view on todays occurrences are going to be different. I believe Russia will stay a short time until Assad falls, something is going to sever its alliance with Iran, and its either Assad or economic collapse due to the war on oil :itsgood:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:58 am

kirthril wrote:Also Mr.Baldy, I don't know if you have seen my posts in other threads, but I do not believe Russia to be Gog/Magog so yeah my view on todays occurrences are going to be different. I believe Russia will stay a short time until Assad falls, something is going to sever its alliance with Iran, and its either Assad or economic collapse due to the war on oil


Hi Kirthril,

I've seen a few of your posts concerning your theory on Russia. I don't know what you consider a "short time", but if you really have paid attention to Putin's actions and/or his rise to power - I would say that based on your statements, you are severely underestimating this man. Let me also mention that absolutely NO man of war goes into a war without a plan. Wars are very often never "short" in duration - especially in this modern day of time.

I'm no History buff, or economical guru on World affairs - but it would appear that Mr. Putin has devised an "evil plan" in his heart - and it didn't happen overnight. I'm not speculating here, just looking at the facts. The facts that I see seem to jive up with Scripture. Just as the ENP deal did - and still does. Most want to continue to rule the whole ENP deal out; yet it is still very much a 7 year Covenant with Many that was founded by a man identified by the number 666 - and it currently runs until 2020. These are all FACTS.

The Islamic Paradigm doesn't seem to fit - but this is only my opinion. I'm not looking for Turkey to rise to Power with a Leader later identified as the coming Antichrist - as what I have studied so far just does not add up. I will however continue to keep my eyes on Russia as I do believe that Putin is Gog - and he is not the coming Antichrist.

And as a side note: *Keep watching the Oil prices.

If for some reason you, and those who believe in a Islamic Antichrist turn out to be correct.....then I will piggy back on what you have posted:

:itsgood:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:09 pm

David, Gog is described as coming from the 'far north' in Ezek 38. The King who will do as he pleases in Dan 11, the AC, will be opposed by the king of the north and the king of the south in battle and reports from the east will alarm him, suggesting that the east is against him. The only compass point not referred to is the west, suggesting that the AC is indeed the king of the west.

So the AC would be from the west, Gog from the north, 2 separate individuals, 1 who is killed and buried in a mass grave, the other, captured and cast alive into the lake of fire.

And the description of the AC in Dan 11 is not consistent with him being Islamic. the AC will magnify himself over every god and say bad things about the God of gods, which in the case of Islam would be Allah, which would be contrary to Islam. The AC will show no respect for the god of his fathers, again Allah if he is Islamic. He will not regard any god, including Allah, and set himself above them all, including Allah. Islamic nations from the south fight against him and he conquer Islamic nations, not something done by a supposed Islamic leader.

The evidence of scripture would appear to indicate that Gog and the AC are 2 separate individual leaders, and that the AC is not Islamic.

And the Turkey thread is interesting, but becomes moot if a stronger power like Russia imposes its will on Turkey.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:42 pm

As far as the timing of the destruction of Damascus, also associated with the Ps 83 event, the comparison of the nations involved points to a particular sequence of events.

Armageddon is repeatedly described as involving 'all nations', all the nations of the world, in Zech 14, Joel 3, and Rev 16, 19, that gather to Jerusalem to make war against Jesus, and is followed by the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Gog- Magog is described as involving a limited number of nations listed in Ezek 38-39, that gather on the mountains of Israel, nations that come to loot and plunder, and is followed by a 7 year period of weapons burning. Joel 2 also describes an attack on Israel by a northern army which could be consistent with Gog magog.

In the destruction of Damascus event, referred to in Isa 13-19, Jer 46-51, Amos 1, and Zech 9, and also Ps 83, the nations immediately around Israel are listed (Syria, Lebanon, Gaza, Jordan, Egypt), nations which are conspicuously absent in the Gog-Magog list. These nations should be part of the Gog-magog event but they are not mentioned at all, suggesting that they are unable to participate, having been dealt with at an earlier time. These nations come to destroy Israel as a nation according to Ps 83, a different motivation from the looting at Gog, and the opposition to the returning Jesus of armageddon.

At the destruction of Damascus in Isa 17, a fortified city in Israel appears to be destroyed, most likely Tel Aviv as it is the northern most large city. The majority of the destruction appears to occur in Syria and Jordan with cities being abandoned because of Israel. After describing the destruction of Damascus, Isa 17 later describes the raging of many nations, who God deals with, those who come to loot and plunder, a possible reference to gog-magog.

So by the nations listed in scripture at these 3 separate events, it appears that ever widening concentric circles of nations are involved as events progress. At Damascus the nations immediately surrounding Israel, at Gog Magog the nations surrounding the nations listed at Damascus, and finally at armageddon all nations are involved. Damascus occurs first, followed be Gog-Magog with in a relatively short period of time, followed by a 7 year period of weapons burning and armageddon.

In scripture, the term Day of the Lord is used to refer to the day when Jesus returns at armageddon, the great and terrible day of Joel 2, but the term is also used of other lesser events when God deals with nations, in essence previews of the coming great and terrible day. The destruction of Damascus and Gog-Magog could each be referred to as a day of the Lord, previews of 'the Day', the coming day of Christ's return.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:40 am

Gog is described as coming from the 'far north' in Ezek 38.

true
The King who will do as he pleases in Dan 11, the AC, will be opposed by the king of the north and the king of the south in battle and reports from the east will alarm him, suggesting that the east is against him. The only compass point not referred to is the west, suggesting that the AC is indeed the king of the west.

This is where many make their mistake. Separating Daniel 11:36-45 from Daniel 11:1-20 and then 21-35. The antichrist begins at Daniel 21 in a dual fulfillment of prophecy, all of this has happened before and will happen again. He (the AC) is the last and final king of the north. Who is the king of the north? Daniel 8 tells us he rules over one of the 4 quadrants of the split Greek kingdom and continuously wars against the south. History tells us that this quadrant was the Seleucid kingdom against the Ptolemaic kingdom. The Seleucid consisted of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Turkey. Ptolemaic was Egypt. The AC, the last king of the north will come from one of those above nations and all those nations are islamic.

When you read Daniel, and you read "the king of the south shall push at "him" and the king of the north shall storm out against "him", you are making that "him" to be a separated individual. It is not. Read Daniel 21-45 in its entirety.

1. the final king of the north (seleucid) attacks the final king of the south (Egypt leader) but it ends in a draw
2. the the king of the north attacks Egypt again but is turned away by the ships from the western coastlands, navies of chittim (Italy and Greece). The AC, Seleucid king lashes out at Christianity, Abolishes the daily sacrifice, desecrate the temple, commits the AOD
3. The THIRD time, Egypt attacks first, and the king of the north responds.
4. After conquering Egypt, reports from his north and east alarm him and he turns around and hunkers down in Israel

Notice that? The west is involved. The west, Italy and Greece, members of NATO, OPPOSE the AC who leads the expanding Seleucid kingdom. The Christian west temporarily stops the AC from expanding his kingdom. It is prophesized that the AC will attack Greece as well, this will draw in NATO to oppose. THIS IS THE REASON the AoD is commited! Because Christianity defeated him! So he now burns with hatred thus causing the AoD, and AoS.

Notice that? There are powerful nations to the NORTH and EAST of the AC, of the Selucid kingdom. After the defeat of Egypt, after the west has shown opposition to him, the AC will be attacked by strong nations to his north and east. Russia, China, maybe india.

This all puts the AC and his kingdom of the north (of Israel) in a centralized location. Daniel repeatedly in Ch11 and 9 points us to the Seleucid kingdom.

And the description of the AC in Dan 11 is not consistent with him being Islamic. the AC will magnify himself over every god and say bad things about the God of gods, which in the case of Islam would be Allah, which would be contrary to Islam. The AC will show no respect for the god of his fathers, again Allah if he is Islamic. He will not regard any god, including Allah, and set himself above them all, including Allah. Islamic nations from the south fight against him and he conquer Islamic nations, not something done by a supposed Islamic leader.

Another mistake. Daniel and Revelation tells us that the AC is a VERY RELIGIOUS person. He magnifies himself over every god BUT he HONORS a god above him. He is not a atheist or agnostic or secular. He worships a god his ancestors did not know. So he DOES worship a god, just one he considers superior. And as the messiah of this god, he thus is superior to all the other "false gods".

so this does not rule out Islam. Because the AC comes from the Seleucid kingdom mentioned in Daniel 11:1-45, out of one of the nations to the north of Israel (Turkey) he will indeed worship a god unknown to his ancestors. The ancestors of modern day Turkey were Christians. Turkey was the capitol and seat of the CHRISTIAN East Roman empire. Before Christianity turkey worshipped Jupiter, king of the roman gods, before that Zeus, king of the greek gods etc...

Thus Allah of today is a unknown god for the ancestors of the Turkish, Persian, Babylonian, Syrian, Lebanese people. He did not exist back then.
..............

Russia is not magog. God will utterly destroy the nation of Magog after the war. If magog is Russia, and Russia is destroyed, then who in the world would exist north of the AC that is powerful enough to cause the AC to go on the defense, hunkering down in Israel? Ukraine? Georgia? Armenia? If the kingdom of the AC is Europe, then who is north of Europe? The artic?

Last but not least, when one reads end times prophecy in its entirety one realizes several things:

1. The Empire of the AC is not global, but regionally centered in the middle east.
2. His empire is attacked from all 4 directions, north (Russia), south (Egypt), west (chittim), east (china,india)
3. Every single nation mentioned in the bible as coming against Israel is Middle eastern, not a single European or Asian, or american, or African nation (save for those the AC conqueres) mentioned.
4. The nations of Magog are the same nations that make up the empire of the AC, Seleucid kingdom +north Africa
5. God tells satan/AC that he will bring the strongest nations against him (AC) and they will destroy him (once again not a global empire).
6. God tells Israel that when the "Assyrian" (AC) tramples their land, he will raise up 7 shepherds (nations) and 8 men (who lead those nations) against the Assyrian and they will destroy him.
............

And I can go on. But Ezekiel 38/39, the Magog war begins after the AOD, after the defeat of Egypt when islam turns its full attention to Jerusalem and it ends with Armageddon when all nations have been drawn into the fighting.

To put it bluntly the nations of the Seleucid kingdom combined with the AC's conquest of north Africa, together as a whole, now make up the Magog alliance.

Magog alliance:
Beth togarmah- Turkey
Meschech - turkey
Tubal - turkey
Magog- turkey
Libya - Libya
Put - Algeria/Tunisia
Cush - Sudan
Persia- Iran
And the many nations with you...

AC Seleudcid kingdom + north Africa conquest:
Turkey
Iran
Iraq
Syria
Lebanon
Jordan
Egypt (defeated)
Sudan (surrenders) <---- here are your 3 subdued kings folks
Libya (surrenders)

Nations mentioned in Isaiah, Psalm and elsewhere:
Jordan
Palestine/westbank
Lebanon
Assyria
Cush
Put
Egypt

The bible is painstakingly clear the Magog alliance is the empire of the AC and every last nation is Islamic, and middle eastern/north African. Also John tells us the 8th empire will consist of territories of all previous 7. The Romans never went into Assyria, Persia, Babylonia... But the Ottoman empire does have all 7 and so does Magog...
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:36 am

:nothingtoadd: :snack: :nothingtoadd:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:45 pm

kirthril wrote:This is where many make their mistake. Separating Daniel 11:36-45 from Daniel 11:1-20 and then 21-35.


Hi Kirthril,

If I may.........

I know that you have responded to 1whowaits with your in-depth theory that you have posted - however, I couldn't resist as I have found many, many holes in what you have posted, and your aforementioned comment absolutely must be addressed. I only mention this, and respectfully ask only these two questions:

1) Did you look at Daniel 11:35 prior to posting your aforementioned comment?

and:

2) Are you sure you're not including Antiochus Epiphanes' prior actions into your theory?

I will step away - but only for a moment - :mrgreen: - as I am sure 1whowaits will most certainly point out the many holes in your theory that are very apparent.

:sunshine:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:09 pm

K, there is some debate about the fulfillment of Dan 11. It does appear that vs 36 and following refers to the AC and is tied into the GT and the resurrection in Dan 12. It is also appears that the vs prior to vs 36 have been fulfilled in the past, the latter ones by Antiochus Epiphanes, who is believed to foreshadow the actions of the AC.

The question of double fulfillment of the vs prior to vs 36 is not clear, and there is nothing to indicate that there will be future fulfillment of these verses. Double fulfillment of a prophetic passage is considered when part of the passage is left unfulfilled by past events. The destruction of Babylon in Jer 50-51 is an example of this, although Babylon was destroyed there are several parts that were not fulfilled in the past (the sea will rise over Babylon, it roaring waves will cover her..).

This does not appear to be the case for the verses of Dan 11 prior to vs 36, they have been fulfilled quite accurately in the past. Also, if there were to be double fulfillment, the passage should not contradict what other passages describe of the future event. If the verses prior to vs 36 were to have future fulfillment, the AC would be the king of the north, but as Dan 11 : 40 clearly states the king of the north engages the AC in battle, which would be a contradiction.

The theory that the earlier part of Dan 11 has a double or future fulfillment is only an assumption, and there really is no evidence to back up that assumption, in fact it contradicts the latter part of Dan 11 itself.

As far as the AC being religious, i would agree, the religion he observes is focused on himself- 'He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God, or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God'. 2 Thess 2. Exalting oneself over god and proclaiming oneself to be god, which would be Allah if one were Islamic, would be against the very tenants of Islam and worthy of death. Also the FP causes men to worship an image of the beast (AC) which also is against the tenants of Islam. When the scripture is interpreted in a straightforward fashion it is clear that the AC is not Islamic.

The AC does honor a god of forces and the foreign god helps him attack fortresses. The only 'god' that could assist the AC in an attack would be Satan, the prince of the power (forces) of the air. Rev indicates that Satan gives the AC his power and authority and men worship Satan for doing it. Worshiping or exalting Satan would also be against the tenants of Islam, again confirming that the AC is not Islamic.

Scripture does not indicate that the Gog-Magog alliance is the kingdom of the AC, actually scripture indicates the AC rules from a city that is called Babylon (the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth Rev17), a city and country not mentioned at Gog-magog. Dan 11 states that the AC sets up his royal tents at the beautiful holy mountain, the AC sets himself up in God's temple, the 2 witnesses are killed by the AC is the great city figuratively called Sodom and Egypt where Jesus was crucified, and the description of the woman Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 fits the description of a certain city in several scriptures, that city being Jerusalem. It would appear that the AC sets himself up as god and rules the world from God's temple and God's city, Jerusalem, further confirming that the AC is not Islamic, he is the god of his own religion.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:53 am

1WW, I don't believe you know enough about the beliefs of apocalyptic and eschatological islam to confirm your statements of ' they will not do this because ' that is not islam. Their beliefs about the mahdi and the manner in which he comes are written about extensively in their books, and are a backwards reflection of True Scripture, with the intent of making the sons of Ishmael and Esau the inheritors of God's favors, which they believe to be stolen by Isaac and Jacob. They indeed believe their prophet was a perfect man, although just a man and not a deity, but both he and their coming mahdi will have, contain, the attributes of their god and manifest them in a manner which Scripture fully describes as the characteristics and actions of the antichrist. He will in the eyes of the average street muslim be as a god, they will worship him according to their beliefs and tenets, and they will accomplish that which Scripture describes, right up to the end of themselves. Consider this, as we Christians try to conform ourselves to the image of Christ so the muslim will conform himself to the image of the beast, islam manifesting that beast in their mahdi. These are concepts of the mind as well as the heart, who we worship in this manner will be shown by the mark we bear, which will have various manifestations in the world of sight. Scripture accurately describes the bulk of what the koran and hadiths state and attempt to do, that being discredit the Son of God to the point no salvation can be achieved through Him alone, but the 'works' of the muslim can and will save. It is really as simple as that, but much gets lost in minutia if we devolve this discussion into talking points regarding unsubstantiated belief of what islam is and is not. Not that the details of Scripture itself can be considered minutia, but that what we don't know about islam and it's beast empire more closely reflects current attempts to call it the ' religion of peace ' than what it really is, what we are not allowed to openly express, the worship of satan as God Himself. The battle between 'good and evil' can hardly be more accurately described in the reality Scriptures portray, manifesting today as islam verses Judeo/Christianity over who will physically occupy the Holy Land and Jerusalem, and for the hearts and minds of all humanity, our very souls, where we will spend our eternity, and just how it is we will get there.

So please, refrain from unsubstantiated statements about what islam/muslims will not do without supporting specifically why they will not do it. I don't believe you can as their revered books state specifically, they can, and they will. What we are seeing today in the ME surrounding Israel is exactly what Scripture describes, and also is exactly what islam describes too. The difference between the two belief systems is how it all ends, with islam is forcing the end, while the One True God allows it.

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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:17 pm

David, i don't think it is necessary to have extensive knowledge about Islamic eschatology to demonstrate that the AC and what he does as described in scripture is inconsistent with Islam. The number 1 basic tenet of Islam is that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger. One has to say this out loud to become a muslim, this is the basic belief of Islam.

And what the AC does according to scripture is completely contrary to this basic, clear statement of Islam. Scripture states repeatedly that the AC sets himself over all gods and says that he is god, which would indicate that he is god over Allah. He is going against the number 1 tenet/belief of Islam, if he does this he is not of Islam, all Islam would have to reject him.

The straightforward interpretation of Dan 11 and 2 Thess 2 would indicate that what the AC does is inconsistent with the most basic understanding of Islam, imo. But then again, what do i know.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:00 pm

1) Did you look at Daniel 11:35 prior to posting your aforementioned comment?

and:

2) Are you sure you're not including Antiochus Epiphanes' prior actions into your theory?

I did:
The antichrist begins at Daniel 21 in a dual fulfillment of prophecy, all of this has happened before and will happen again.


The reason I say the AC begins at 21 and not 36 is because look at vs 30-35. That's the AoD that we have all been waiting for. And the one who commits it is the same man mentioned starting vs 21. I know its been done in the past, but as Ecclesiastes 1:1-4 states history and events will repeat themselves.
................

As for Islamic end times teaching, im not going to claim to know much about it. But from what I do know, as a overview, it is a direct mirror of what God has written. Satan, Allah, has set the muslims up to worship the AC. Yes, satan is a liar and we are to take Islamic end times teaching with a grain of salt. But the best liars are the ones who will tell you the truth and make you think they are lying while at the same time twisting the truth so that those who know it is a lie can't tell which part is the lie.

for example, muslims believe that a muslim man called the "Sufaiyni" will challenge their Mahdi. The Mahdi will win and when he does, all of Islam will recognize him as the true authority and give their allegiance to him. They say this battle will occur somewhere in Syria.

But what does the bible say? I point again to Daniel 11 21-45. The man who will challenge the AC is none other than the King of the south, Egypt. Notice when the AOD is commited, right before he defeats Egypt. What happens after he defeates Egypt? Libya, sudan follow him and now his alliance of 10 nations is complete and turns his attention to Israel

Islam... Christianity, same event, same people, same outcome, but as you might notice where the battle occurs is different (Syria vs in Egypt). That is satan telling us the truth, but adding in a lil extra.

The bible doesn't tell us where in the timeline the 10kings give the AC their power. According to islam it is after he defeats this "sufayini". According to Daniel, the 10 aren't complete until after Egypt is defeated, Sudan, Libya follow, which comes after the AoD. So even the transfer of power is a mirror.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:13 am

kirthril wrote:The reason I say the AC begins at 21 and not 36 is because look at vs 30-35. That's the AoD that we have all been waiting for. And the one who commits it is the same man mentioned starting vs 21. I know its been done in the past, but as Ecclesiastes 1:1-4 states history and events will repeat themselves


Hi Kirthril,

I made mention that you read Daniel 11:35 because it is clearly speaking of those who will make a way and or die during the time of Antiochus Epiphanes for the End Time so that prophecy be fulfilled. Daniel 11:36 is the transition period, as it starts with the word "Then" from what Antiochus Epiphanes did; Believers being martyred; to what the coming Antichrist the "willful king" shall do - and this is where I have found an apparent hole in your theory.

As far as what you have mentioned in Ecclesiastes 1:1-4, I don't read where it states that "history and events will repeat themselves." I get a completely different interpretation. :mrgreen:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:41 am

Daniel 11:36 is the transition period, as it starts with the word "Then" from what Antiochus Epiphanes did; Believers being martyred; to what the coming Antichrist the "willful king" shall do - and this is where I have found an apparent hole in your theory.

Yeah that's just not how I see it. "Then" to me is simply a continuation. This, then this, then this, then this...

If the AC is the successor to Antiochus, and he is, then we would have seen, Daniel would have written, just like in the first 20 verses "And he will be succeeded by"...

But once you hit verse 20-21 there is no more mention of succession. The man of 21 is the same of 30-35 is the same of 36-40. This is what leads me and others to think this is one of those dual fulfillments. Both the AC and Antiochus will essentially do the same exact thing. One in the same. So its not a "hole", we just have a different view of "then" and whether it signifies a gap of time or not.

As far as what you have mentioned in Ecclesiastes 1:1-4, I don't read where it states that "history and events will repeat themselves." I get a completely different interpretation. :mrgreen:

:oops: Ecclesiastes 1:8-11 is what I meant:

What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

10
Is there anything of which one can say,
“Look! This is something new”?
It was here already, long ago;
it was here before our time.

History and events will repeat. Why?
because:

11
No one remembers the former generations,
and even those yet to come
will not be remembered
by those who follow them.

Because humans fail to learn from history, and thus repeat the mistakes of the past. Yeah I had the wrong verses. My bad :grin:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:53 am

And what the AC does according to scripture is completely contrary to this basic, clear statement of Islam. Scripture states repeatedly that the AC sets himself over all gods and says that he is god, which would indicate that he is god over Allah. He is going against the number 1 tenet/belief of Islam, if he does this he is not of Islam, all Islam would have to reject him.

As I mention in a earlier post you have to take that into context. Yes, he magnifies himself above EVERY god. No doubt, you are right. But you leave out both Daniel and John of Revelation. You are going to have a very hard time explaining that he worships no god when both these books tells us he worships a god above himself. He worships a god of war, fortresses. He honors it with gold and silver. He worships a foreign god, unknown to his ancestors. He forces everyone to worship the dragon (satan) who is the foreign god, who gave him and his kingdom power.

When the AC comes, every god of every religion will be thrown to the ground and trampled on. The main target will be the Holy One of Israel, but all other religions will be declared illegal as well. Only his god, will be worshipped and he is its messiah. This does not contradict islam. This is exactly what their Mahdi will do, declare all religions false, proclaim messiahship, and declare himself above Jesus Christ as a simple prophet (which would be magnifying himself above the God of gods.).
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:49 am

1whowaits wrote:David, i don't think it is necessary to have extensive knowledge about Islamic eschatology to demonstrate that the AC and what he does as described in scripture is inconsistent with Islam. The number 1 basic tenet of Islam is that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his messenger. One has to say this out loud to become a muslim, this is the basic belief of Islam.


Brother it is important to know what they believe, even though they are in error mostly, to understand how they will fulfill the Truth of Scripture. Granted extensive knowledge of their beliefs is not required for this, but the foundation or nature of their beliefs is. The most important part of what you call the number 1 tenet of islam you miss is that allah has no son, the very heart of the spirit of antichrist. If one must only say a phrase to become a muslim, one can also only say a phrase to become a Christian. So as far as human understanding goes we are then to believe they are fully that ? Certainly not, as we know, and at best we can consider them to be 'on the milk' of that faith. The meat of Christianity is in understanding through Faith by Grace we are saved, we can do nothing of ourselves, but Christ in us is our Salvation. The muslim belief is in faith by force, by obeying their god to conquer the world for him, they earn their salvation. They cannot be saved unless they fight to force their faith on others, conquering the world for islam. For us unbelievers we must submit, and here I point out the very word islam translates as submit or submission, and it is necessary to point out also ultimately if we don't we will die by the loss of our heads. This world, according to their beliefs, will be conquered by them for their god allah/satan who by force will be the only god allowed to be worshiped.

And what the AC does according to scripture is completely contrary to this basic, clear statement of Islam. Scripture states repeatedly that the AC sets himself over all gods and says that he is god, which would indicate that he is god over Allah. He is going against the number 1 tenet/belief of Islam, if he does this he is not of Islam, all Islam would have to reject him.


Your ignorance of islam is showing here. Satan has already set himself over other gods in the foundations of islam. Their prophet has taken all the former gods of Mesopotamia, the historic area of Arabia and Babylon, and caused him to be exalted to the position of the only god, allah, above all those pagan gods formerly worshipped there. While this has future implications, it is also history as shown in the symbols of islam, the crescent moon and the star which were the most prominent symbols of the pagan gods of those times. Gideon himself took those golden symbols off the camels after he defeated those eastern pagans and melted them down. The golden calf is another pagan symbol, you know Israel's story with that one. It's history, written in Scripture and proved by archaeology.

If you know the history of how mohammed came to the knowledge of this god you will understand it is satan himself who reveals this to him. And this my friend is the birth of islam. As Christ destroys in the end with the sword of His mouth, satan destroys, or conquers and converts, by the 'force' of his earthly sword. Does satan wish to be the god of this world or not ? Is this the god of forces worshiped by the antichrist or not ? In fact he is called this, but his desire is to be worshiped, or at least feared by those subdued, all the peoples of the world, replacing the One True God just as written. The basic tenet of Christianity is Christ is the Son of God. The basic tenet of islam is allah has no son, far be it from him to do so, and he is the ONLY god. Is this not the antichrist spirit manifest in a belief in another god ? Islamic end times state their 'savior' will fight the antichrist, who is described in a bizarre fashion but really is our very own Christ. This can be deduced through actual Scripture by a backwards and confused thinking represented in the beliefs of islam as written in their books.

The straightforward interpretation of Dan 11 and 2 Thess 2 would indicate that what the AC does is inconsistent with the most basic understanding of Islam, imo. But then again, what do i know.


Brother you know a lot. Your knowledge of the Scriptures is astounding but your focus is misplaced, so you have yet to gain understanding, and wisdom, from this knowledge. It is so simple vast knowledge will step right over the simple Truth, this is the battle between Good and evil, God and our Christ against the god of this world satan, and his representation to us is islam and it's god allah that is the highest god of all the pagan gods that were or are ever believed in. The only god left for allah to conquer at this point is our God Himself. For one thing He is real, and another is He has chosen Israel as His People, not the other sons of Abraham, who is the God of their fathers. Muslims believe one can become so close to this god they will glow with his presence, notably their hands and heads, and their coming 'savior' will become engulfed by this light of their god. Yet in islam no human can be a god, but can only represent him, therefore no son, and this one will do the actions of the Scriptural antichrist. Scripture does not say the antichrist will say he is god, only that he will display himself as god. Satan himself appears as an angel of light. I admit I do not know how this will manifest in the end times, but there is a connection here that is unavoidable, as it is yet another of their convoluted writings reflecting a backwards upside down rendering of Scriptures that place satan above the One True God, a display for us here on earth to witness if you will. Muslims believe this, whether or not we do, and by force will cause much to happen, satan stepping in at the appropriate time, all this inadvertently fulfilling the Scriptures just as written.

Without getting too deep into the beliefs of the rest of the world, where is the culmination of islamic and Judaeo/Christian beliefs going to take place ? Jerusalem and the very Temple mount itself of course. Gee, imagine that, islamic belief as written in their books, and Judaeo/Christian belief about the same place just as written in Scripture. The rest of the world is going to hand islam all this simply because it is deceived into believing islam is the 'religion of peace' as opposed to the true Faith. This has got to be the greatest lie satan has ever tried to perpetuate, and the world in general will chose to believe it, just as written, just as is happening. There is no one else in this whole world who wants Jerusalem as the place to worship satan than the fully deceived muslim, who does not know allah is satan himself. To fail to recognize this is simply a part of the deception this world is subject to. No insult intended here Brother, but when you 'see' this you will know this is that of which the Scriptures speak. Sincerely, I pray you come to this knowledge.

God Bless You

David
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The hour I first believed.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:20 pm

kirthril wrote:If the AC is the successor to Antiochus, and he is, then we would have seen, Daniel would have written, just like in the first 20 verses "And he will be succeeded by"...


kirthril wrote:But once you hit verse 20-21 there is no more mention of succession. The man of 21 is the same of 30-35 is the same of 36-40. This is what leads me and others to think this is one of those dual fulfillments. Both the AC and Antiochus will essentially do the same exact thing. One in the same. So its not a "hole", we just have a different view of "then" and whether it signifies a gap of time or not.


Hi Kirthril,

Did you actually read what you submitted before you posted it? :mrgreen:

If you are saying that "there is no more mention of succession" from verses 20-40 and that this is the "same man"; then you don't have two individuals having a "dual fulfillment - but one person. This "same man" as you have mentioned cannot possibly carryout anything past verse 35 - as it mentions those who "fall" or are martyred to show that this same pattern of persecution will be continued until the revelation of the future "king" who "will do as he pleases" in the End Time. As in verse 35 further states: "it is still to come at the appointed time."

So, my Brother in Christ, you have an apparent contradiction. The contradiction would be considered a "hole" - and there is a definite "gap". :sunshine:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jericho on Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:48 pm

kirthril wrote:As for Islamic end times teaching, im not going to claim to know much about it. But from what I do know, as a overview, it is a direct mirror of what God has written. Satan, Allah, has set the muslims up to worship the AC. Yes, satan is a liar and we are to take Islamic end times teaching with a grain of salt. But the best liars are the ones who will tell you the truth and make you think they are lying while at the same time twisting the truth so that those who know it is a lie can't tell which part is the lie.


There's a good reason why Islamic eschatology mirrors Christan eschatology, Muslims have borrowed heavily from Christian literature. They just changed things around to make Islam the winner. Chris White has done some research into this area. He believes that most Islamic eschatology originates from Christian apocalyptic pseudepigraphical writings primarily from Syria. I think Islamic eschatology is useful in understanding how Muslims think, but I wouldn't put much stock in it beyond that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fliOwze_o8
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby kirthril on Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:01 am

Did you actually read what you submitted before you posted it? :mrgreen:

If you are saying that "there is no more mention of succession" from verses 20-40 and that this is the "same man"; then you don't have two individuals having a "dual fulfillment - but one person. This "same man" as you have mentioned cannot possibly carryout anything past verse 35 - as it mentions those who "fall" or are martyred to show that this same pattern of persecution will be continued until the revelation of the future "king" who "will do as he pleases" in the End Time. As in verse 35 further states: "it is still to come at the appointed time."

Then let me make it clearer on what I meant. In my understanding, as a dual fulfillment of prophecy, instead of writing the prophecy twice for two people, it was written once to cover two people. Thus why the line of succession ends at 20-21. Even though the AC does come after Antiochus, the fact that it doesn't mention succession like it did for the previous 20 verses and the kings within tell me its a dual fulfillment, they are both going to do the same thing, same events, same battles:

21 “He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue. 22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed. 23 After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power. 24 When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time.

The rise of the AC both politically and militarily. A war in the near future which cements his power. He does not come to power through elections (at least not legitimately). This is the beginning of his imperial expansion, invading nearby nations and handing their lands to his followers. Seeing how I believe this to be turkey; Armenia, Kurdistan, Azerbaijan several of the other ex-soviet states, as well as Syria could be the ones to be absorbed into Turkish rule. This is the last time a person is succeeded by anyone. This IS the last king.
25 “With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South. The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him. 26 Those who eat from the king’s provisions will try to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall in battle. 27 The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time. 28 The king of the North will return to his own country with great wealth, but his heart will be set against the holy covenant. He will take action against it and then return to his own country.

The first invasion of Egypt. The Egyptian ruler will be betrayed by his own generals or gov't officials but he will survive the attempt. The two will meet for a "diplomatic solution" but both are lying through their teeth. The ancient hatred between Turkey and Egypt continues. The northern king returns to his own nation with several billion $$$ as a "settlement" between the two but he will be angry. He will somehow blame Christianity for this upon return. Notice that the war between these two will not finish until "the appointed time"
29 “At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of the western coastlands will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

He invades Egypt again. But this time ships from the west oppose him. Kittem/Chittem is Italy/Greece/Cyprus. The AC returns to his nation in the north. How can the AC be EU leader if EU nations oppose him. And he returns to his nation in the north, not the west. Now he is furious at Christianity and issues a call throughout his seat of authority for those of the biblical faith to abandon it, and will reward those that do. Notice "appointed time" is mentioned here as well, but it is not "the" appointed time which will bring the end of the war mentioned earlier.
31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. 32 With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

Here is the AOD and AOS we have all been waiting for. Notice it takes place well before he invades Israel.
33 “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. 34 When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. 35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.
And thus begins the intense persecution of Christians/jews in the nation and territories currently under his authority. But it has not yet gone global.
36 “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place. 37 He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. 38 Instead of them, he will honor a god of fortresses; a god unknown to his ancestors he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts. 39 He will attack the mightiest fortresses with the help of a foreign god and will greatly honor those who acknowledge him. He will make them rulers over many people and will distribute the land at a price.

Still no mention of succession, this is a continuation of the events of v35. He will do what every tyrant has ever done. Whatever he wants. Notice he throws down the other gods and makes himself greater than them BUT he honors/worships a god above him. He will attack the strongest fortresses/nations with his religious zeal and followers, making them rulers over those conquered. Now the persecution has gone global and the STRONGEST nations are attacked. Notice the AC attacks the strongest nations. His alliance is not the strongest, nor is he ruler over the strongest. China, Russia, Britain, Germany, Italy, Spain, France, Japan, India, America, Canada and others will not be under his authority or control, thus he attacks them.
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships.

Now is "the appointed time" which will bring an end to the war between these two men. After the first two, after the AoD, after the persecutions commence. Egypt initiates the fight this time and the northern king rides out against him. Notice this time, the west does not oppose him. Why? Because his religious zealots are busy attacking the strongest nations. The west is too pre-occupied with war on its own soil to help Egypt this time around.
He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. 41 He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand.
Now the next phase of imperial expansion.
42 He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. 43 He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites[e] in submission.
With Egypt gone, Libya and Sudan submit/surrender. NOW the Magog alliance is complete (which was the original topic of this thread).
44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.
Now the Magog invasion of Israel commences as the countless armies already surrounding Israel begin its destruction. Those who did not heed the warning to leave for safety are now trapped. The AC, hearing of threats from his north (Russia) and east (china/india) closing in on him, will cause him to try to destroy the jewish people as fast as possible as he prepares to face incoming armies.
45 He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at[f] the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him.
He bunkers down in Israel and goes on the defensive. And we all know what happens next.
...................

So as I mentioned. No mention of succession anywhere between 21-40. This is all the same man, and because it is a dual fulfillment prophecy, there is no mention of a time gap to reiterate, retell everything the AC is going to do, because he does the exact same things Antiochus did. There is no need to retell the exact same events.

Down near the bottom is one of the reasons I believe Gog is the AC. It isn't until Egypt is defeated that Sudan and Libya join his alliance. Egypt isn't mentioned as part of the Magog alliance. Now we know why.

Near the middle is reasons why I believe the AC is Islamic from a regional empire that will grow from Turkey. No other local on earth has a setting in which Egypt is to the south, Chittem is to the west, and powerful nations to the north and east. Also notice the AC does not posses the strongest military or collection of nations, but instead attackes the strongest nations. This rules out EU and or a UN alliance as the top tier nations of both blocks are all powerful.

Also near the middle is why islam cant be ruled out. The AC is not secular or atheist. But religious who exalts himself and his god above all others. Revelation mentions he forces people to worship his god who has given him his authority and power.

Also notice the main method of attacking the nations is not through military conquest but by his religious followers trampling down the nations attacking the cultures and societies from within. He distributes conquered land and wealth to those who follow him. Another reason one can't rule out islam, as it is already embedded in the strongest nations. Civil war is coming.

Lastly you must take the entire ch11 into context. It is ALL about the Seleucid kingdom vs the Ptolemaic kingdom. The AC will be from the northern Seleucid, his chief rival from southern Ptolemy. The west, opposes the AC.
...............

Also upon re-reading there is no "then" or "after" between 35 and 36. The reason I believe 36 exists as a different segment, or the chapter is split off at that specific verse is not because the man of 36 is different from the man of 35, but because of the importance of what just occurred.

In 31-35 the king of the north desecrates the temple. Abolishes Sacrifice. Sets up the Abomination of Desolation. This is THE event we Christians have been looking forward to to determine who the AC is. The AC is identified by this here event.

In 36, he now is no longer just the king of the north, but "The" Antichrist. And thus relabeled as "the king who does as he pleases". His 1260 day reign has just begun and he will be successful in what he does (as he pleases) until the return of Christ. That's why the separation is there. He goes from being just a man, to self-proclaimed messiah-god-king. The 3.5yr trib begins vs 36-39. Israels flight to safety is between 36-42. The holocaust of Israel begins 43.
.............
So this is my Daniel 11 analysis of who this AC is, he territory, his rule, and his relation to Gog. In other threads I point to other chapters in Daniel.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:22 pm

kirthril wrote:Also upon re-reading there is no "then" or "after" between 35 and 36. The reason I believe 36 exists as a different segment, or the chapter is split off at that specific verse is not because the man of 36 is different from the man of 35, but because of the importance of what just occurred.


Hi Kirthril,

First if you haven't seen the word "then" mentioned in verse 36 - then I guess it would depend on which Translation of Scripture you are using. I know for certain that it is in the NASB and the NKJV - nevertheless, you have realized that there is something going on at verse 36 of Daniel 11.

I find it absolutely very hard to understand why you cannot see that Daniel 11:21-35 is clearly mentioning Antiochus Epiphanes. Verse 36-45 as I have been trying to point out clearly establishes the coming Antichrist.

In closing, it's really hard to have someone change their mind about a specific point - even when the evidence is there, or readily apparent; especially when they have their mind made up. Sometimes this is unfortunate. I'm never going to believe in an Islamic Antichrist (which is a very new discovery)- and it's not because I have my mind made up; it's because Scripture just very simply does not support one, and I've seen enough holes in the Islamic Paradigm to prove it.

Peace to you, it's been a good debate. :mrgreen:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:57 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:I'm never going to believe in an Islamic Antichrist (which is a very new discovery)


Hi Mr Baldy. The islamic paradigm is most certainly not new, but is largely misunderstood, and it is not a perfect paradigm either. That being said, neither is any other paradigm. The following quote is from the Temple Mount organization site

On a February day in the year A.D. 638 the Caliph Omar entered Jerusalem, riding upon a white camel. He was dressed in worn, filthy robes, and the army that followed him was rough and unkempt; but its discipline was perfect. At his side was the Patriarch Sophronius, as chief magistrate of the surrendered city. Omar rode straight to the site of the Temple of Solomon, whence his friend Mahomet had ascended into heaven. Watching him stand there, the Patriarch remembered the words of Christ and murmured through his tears: 'Behold the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet.'


So the caliph, the top human muslim leader, merely stands on the Temple Mount and is pronounced the AoD by the Jewish Patriarch. I don't see it recorded anywhere what he may have said there, but it seems then the islamic paradigm is a lot older than you believe it to be. Certainly there are other truths about this you may not have heard about also.

God Bless You

David
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:50 pm

Exit40 wrote:Hi Mr Baldy. The islamic paradigm is most certainly not new, but is largely misunderstood, and it is not a perfect paradigm either. That being said, neither is any other paradigm


Hi David,

Yes, I would have to definitely agree with you ALL of the "known" Paradigms appear to have holes in them - but I wholeheartedly believe that there is a Truth available.

Thank you for the link, I will view and study it as well. Did you by chance have an opportunity to view the link that Jehricho submitted?

I'm certainly not trying to bash anyone's ideas on an End Time Paradigm. What I don't want to witness, and I mean this from the heart, is for the Body of Christ to be deceived, or mislead by a False Prophet. At the end of the day, it's not about who's right or wrong about the End Times - as eschatology is a secondary issue as far as fellowship in my opinion. I have over the years just seen so many well meaning Christians put more hope into what men were either selling, or telling - and that in the name of making money, than they were in the Word of God. To learn that a Believer has been lead astray or deceived through falsehood, or trickery in the name of filling one's pocket just simply makes me sick to my stomach. I'm sorry, but I can't stand it. I have a passion for the Truth, and I have made it a mission to seek out every sort of falsehood that I can. I just pray that we all study and learn the Word of God on our own, and with our hearts. Surely God will reveal the Truth.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:57 am

Hi Mr B. I haven't watched Jericho's utube link, the sound is out on my computer so I miss the bulk of it. I did notice Joel Richardson was mentioned in the beginning. I'm guessing the vid isn't in full agreement with him on his theories, nor am I. I have read about Joel and his private life some. He uses a pen name as he and his family have received death threats resulting from his writings. His residence is not known either but I'm guessing he lives under the radar, no big mansion type place. I've read his books and Walid Shoebat's too. They have provided some interesting information I had been unaware of, which caused me to search out the Scriptures for myself, which is what I do anyway. I know you hammer who you believe to be false prophets, you really get after them. In fact, when you get started up I can't help but think about Revelation 2:1-7, the Church at Ephesus. And I mean this in a good way, 'said David grinning', I am much the same, rather was until I read these passages. You have written about your work a few times, I feel sorry for the poor sap that tries to get one over on you. Respectfully said Brother, and stay safe ...

Rev 2:1-7 ¶ Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:


God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:44 pm

Exit40 wrote: I know you hammer who you believe to be false prophets, you really get after them. In fact, when you get started up I can't help but think about Revelation 2:1-7, the Church at Ephesus. And I mean this in a good way, 'said David grinning', I am much the same


David, thank you so much for your very kind words. May God richly bless you in understanding and wisdom, as you continue to seek the Truth in His Word.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:02 am

Mr Baldy wrote:. May God richly bless you in understanding and wisdom, as you continue to seek the Truth in His Word.


You too Brother.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:23 pm

It seems that there is no difference between Mr. B. and people like Joel Richardson because they both defend vehemently what they espouse is "God's truth" concerning the End Times.

Joel reserves the right on his blog to edit or delete responses to his blogs/writing/video's etc. such that only what is acceptable to him and his "message/understanding" is allowed to exist on his blog. He really likes those who say "nice things" about his ministry and or thoughts.

Now what are the difference between Mr. B. and Joel Richardson? It would seem to me that Joel is putting his life on the firing line and ministering to Muslims within the Middle East. On the other hand, Mr. B. does put his life on the line in his "working" life within a considered "civilized" community, but which one is operating within God's will in what they are doing is difficult to identify from the little knowledge we have of their particular respective ministries.

I know that while I ministered in a third world country, I went from acting "God like" to coming to understand that God did not need my "God like" actions to help bring in His Kingdom here on the earth and that I had to learn to trust him in taking care of His Own Business without my interference in what he was doing within that third world country.

In the past 20 or so years I have been involved within that third world country, the circumstances of the people has deteriorated and they are now worse off than they were when I first began visiting the country, but now because of their circumstances, there is such a hunger for God's word and grace that Christianity is the fastest growing religion within its borders even with the opposition that it faces daily.

Even though they are living at this time, their daily existence is closer to what it would have been like 2,000 years ago, than to today's "Western" lifestyle where we depend more on our own abilities than God's.

I know that this is way off topic, and I am not questions either Mr. B.'s or Joel's relationship with God in my comments above, but I wonder if we actually do have a good handle on what God is doing at this present time and what he is allowing to unfold to draw us further into His fold.

Which of us can claim that we are closest to God's truth or are we in reality in opposition to "Change" and only want to keep the status quo so that we can feel "secure" in what we are able to understand.

Shalom
Last edited by Jay Ross on Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:05 am

Jay Ross wrote:Which of us can claim that we are closest to God's truth or are we in reality in opposition to "Change" and only want to keep the status quo so that we can feel "secure" in what we are able to understand.


Hi Jay Ross,

I feel a discernment
in my heart that what you have wrote about me is to elicit a response. :mrgreen:

So here you go:

First of all absolutely NONE of us can "claim that we are closet to God's truth" inasmuch that we have ARRIVED, and absolutely know it all.

Notwithstanding the aforementioned comments that you have made about me, in comparison to Joel Richardson - perhaps all one has to do, to include yourself should do is go back to Scripture. For Scripture is the foundation which has been laid for our understanding. Then perhaps my dear brother in Christ you should look at one's motive. Joel Richardson is lining his pockets with mammon; and that in my very humble opinion is not to edify the Body of Christ, but to make gain on those who are either to unwilling to look at Scripture for themselves - as the Bereans; or are too ignorant to understand that there are wolves among us, and their methods needs to cross referenced with Scripture. I have not earned one dime in the message I continually attempt to bring forth.

Not to be overly dogmatic, or to completely destroy anyone's End Time understanding of Bible Prophecy - but Joel Richardson and the whole Islamic Paradigm has been FIRST established on Christian Eschatology. They have changed; borrowed; and/or modified sound doctrine to fit the ideas of what "they" have used to CONTROL people. I find that very unfortunate. Why should any believer in Christ ever accept Islamic Theology? Why should we ever consider what the Islamic Nations believe as a "Mahdi" to ever fit into what is Sound Doctrine? Hence the current Deception that we now see, and have experienced with those who what to follow this NONSENSE. Islam is, and ALWAYS will be a Religion of violence, hatred, and terror - and I don't see why people who are True Seekers of Christ don't understand that.

In closing Jay Ross...... my personal interpretation of Scripture has absolutely nothing to do with "wanting to keep the status quo so that we can feel "secure" in what we are able to understand" - as I know in my heart that it is adhering to Sound Doctrine.

Let me remind you of what Timothy wrote:

2 Timothy 4:3 - NASB

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires


This................my dear brother in Christ is what we are seeing today.

*** Let me add, that "IF" as you have mentioned - Joel Richardson is only deleting comments on his form that challenge his views - and only allowing those comments which compliment his erroneous theory; or gives "smooth tickling words" or comments to his doctrine.....then please consider the source, as it certainly speaks volumes.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:02 pm

But Mr. B. that is what Joel or I or you claim that we do. We claim that we have gone back to the scriptures to determine what is God's truth and then we all write about it from our own personal understanding of it as if what we each have determined is the last word on God's scriptures.

I have been on this journey of exploring God's scriptures for many years now and have set myself aside to do so full time. I have not held a full time job or monetarily been able to fully supported our lifestyle since the beginning of 2000. I have a wonderful and understanding wife who has allowed me the time to consider carefully what is in the scriptures.

I have come to accept that there are no mistakes in God's words, but the mistakes only come about in our feeble attempts to understand the scriptures.

When Stephen gave his apologetic defense before he was stoned to death, he made the claim that (a.) Abraham had received a word from God that he was to travel to the Land of Canaan while he was still living in Ur of the Chaldean's, some 20-25 years before he actually left Haran with Sarah his wife, and a household of some 2,000 plus people and all of his flocks and possessions, (b.) that Abraham left Haran after his father, (expressed within the cultural context of his {Stephen's} day), Noah had died, to which the full Sanhedrin made no objection about while he presented his defense.

But people have twisted what Stephen said that day and have written that Terah was not 70 years old when he had begot his sons and that Abraham was not his first son as is presented in Genesis 11. They ignore Genesis 22:20-24 which is indicative of a member's visit to Abraham and the giving of the news of his father, Terah's death, when he and Sarah learns of their families news some sixty years after they had left Haran.

Now with regards to this present topic, I am satisfied that there is an Islamic paradigm that dovetails into the end times' unfolding story. Genesis 15:16 confirms this in that it speak that around 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, when some of Abraham's descendants return to the land in their own strength, that the "religion" of the Amorite people at this time and its iniquity against the one true God of Abraham will not yet be complete but that it will be shortly afterwards. This verse confirms for me that Islam is in the End times mix of what will be unfolding.

Now the real issue that I have with many people writing about the end times is their understanding of the time line that is operating during these end times. They state/infer that for God's Messianic kingdom to be established on the earth in our near future during the time of the kings of the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, when all of Israel will be saved, that Christ permanent presences is required on the earth during the Millennium Age, when in fact the Bible is silent on this fact and actually provides evidence that Christ will remain in heaven during the Millennium age until its very end when He will come on the clouds with all of the Heavenly hosts around Him to begin the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats. They fail to see and understand that there are large gaps in the timeline when nothing much happens, i.e. the 2,000 or so year period of the desolation and devastation of the land of Canaan and Israel because of the visitation of the iniquities of the Fathers of Israel on their children and their children's children until God remembers them once more.

That the prophecies in Revelation 16:12-16 and Daniel 8:9-14 are rapidly drawing towards their logical conclusions. That "Gog" is intimately involved in the conclusions of these prophecies and that Ezekiel pre-chapter 38 is occurring/unfolding now.

Then there is a time gap of about 1,000 years to the unfolding of the Ezekiel 38-39 prophecies. Gog is involved in both events.

For Gog to be involved in these two event, which will be 1,000 plus years apart, then Gog is not human, but must be a fallen heavenly host, who will rise up out of the Bottomless Pit, the Abyss, where he will be incarcerated at the end of this present age, after it is unlocked, after the decreed 1,000 year period, to do his thing during the little while period before the coming of Christ and the final judgement of the creation and all that is of it.

How the fallen heavenly host will manifest himself as "Gog" on both occasions so that we will be able to see him in action is beyond my comprehension at this present time. However, I am not sure that it is an answer that I must solve or completely resolve to have insight into God's unfolding End Time prophecies.

I have learned that there are times when I must leave the "riddle" unsolved and to allow God time to slowly reveal the answer so that all of mankind can understand what is to be.

I have also learned over time that I must read carefully what is written as often what other people have written is not all about "me." {Note to self: - get rid of all hole digging equipment so as to stop myself from digging a hole for myself where my next step will land.} :mrgreen:

Shalom
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:18 pm

Hi Jay Ross :mrgreen:

Jay Ross wrote:Now the real issue that I have with many people writing about the end times is their understanding of the time line that is operating during these end times. They state/infer that for God's Messianic kingdom to be established on the earth in our near future during the time of the kings of the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, when all of Israel will be saved, that Christ permanent presences is required on the earth during the Millennium Age, when in fact the Bible is silent on this fact and actually provides evidence that Christ will remain in heaven during the Millennium age until its very end when He will come on the clouds with all of the Heavenly hosts around Him to begin the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats.


I wholeheartedly disagree with your aforementioned assessment of the Millennial Reign of Christ. There are many passages of Scripture that prove Christ's Rein during the Millennial age will be here on Earth. As a matter of FACT the True End will not come until He has Reigned, and destroyed "Death" which is the "Last Enemy". Once "Death" is destroyed, He hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28) So my dear brother in Christ, I don't know what Bible you are reading, but Scripture is certainly not silent about His Reign. It's just up to you to figure out the TRUTH.

Here are the sequences of events:

1) The AOD occurs - and "Great Tribulation" begins
2) The rule and reign of the Antichrist for 3.5 years
2a) The Church is persecuted - some suffer martyrdom
2b) The Church is protected in the Wilderness
3) The Great Tribulation is cut Short for the sake of the Elect (Rapture)
4) God's Wrath is poured out on the Earth
5) The Tribulation period is over
6) Christ comes in the Clouds
7) Those who have become Believers and remain alive at His Coming are Gathered in Un-Resurrected bodies
8) Satan is capture - and his Antichrist; Satan is bound to the Abyss; the Antichrist is cast into the Lake of Fire
9) His Feet touch the Mount of Olives and it splits from East to West
10) A remnant of Israel and those nations who have come against Israel will flee towards Him
11) The Sheep & Goats Judgment commences
12) The Millennial Reign ensues
13) The Earth is repopulated by those allowed into the Millennial Kingdom
14) The 1,000 years are up
15) Satan is let loose for a "little season"
16) Fire from God the Father comes from Heaven to consume the wicked offspring that was born during the Millennium
17) Heaven & Earth disappears
18) The Great White Throne appears
19) The Wicked are Judged - and subsequently cast into the Lake of Fire
20) Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father and the Eternal State ensues.

In closing, I'm certainly NOT dogmatic about my views, but I have lined it up as close to what I truly believe Scripture has provided.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:38 pm

To continue.....my dear brother in Christ Jay Ross :mrgreen:

Jay Ross wrote:For Gog to be involved in these two event, which will be 1,000 plus years apart, then Gog is not human, but must be a fallen heavenly host, who will rise up out of the Bottomless Pit, the Abyss, where he will be incarcerated at the end of this present age, after it is unlocked, after the decreed 1,000 year period, to do his thing during the little while period before the coming of Christ and the final judgement of the creation and all that is of it.


Jay Ross, you are way off base here. This is where your apparent "mystical" reasoning comes into play - and is certainly NOT based on Scripture. Let's take a look at what Ezekiel 39:11-16 has to say about what you just erroneously wrote:

Ezekiel 39:11-16 - New King James Version (NKJV)

The Burial of Gog

11) It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12) For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13) Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord God. 14) “They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass through the land and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15) The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man’s bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16) The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus they shall cleanse the land.”’


So, my question to you is: If Gog is "incarcerated at the end of this present age" Then how is it that Scripture has God Himself giving him a "burial place" in Israel?

Jay Ross wrote:How the fallen heavenly host will manifest himself as "Gog" on both occasions so that we will be able to see him in action is beyond my comprehension at this present time. However, I am not sure that it is an answer that I must solve or completely resolve to have insight into God's unfolding End Time prophecies.


If I may...... the reason why you are unable to see that the "fallen heavenly host will manifest himself as Gog" - is because it is NOT in Scripture - and is further the reason why it is "beyond" your "comprehension at this present time". It's just NOT there.

Jay Ross, it's truly time to leave the Mystical; Fairy Tale; Fictional type NONSENSE alone - and stick with what is written in Scripture! :sunshine:
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:41 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Jay Ross :mrgreen:

Jay Ross wrote:Now the real issue that I have with many people writing about the end times is their understanding of the time line that is operating during these end times. They state/infer that for God's Messianic kingdom to be established on the earth in our near future during the time of the kings of the fifth segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy, when all of Israel will be saved, that Christ permanent presences is required on the earth during the Millennium Age, when in fact the Bible is silent on this fact and actually provides evidence that Christ will remain in heaven during the Millennium age until its very end when He will come on the clouds with all of the Heavenly hosts around Him to begin the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats.


I wholeheartedly disagree with your aforementioned assessment of the Millennial Reign of Christ. There are many passages of Scripture that prove Christ's Rein during the Millennial age will be here on Earth. As a matter of FACT the True End will not come until He has Reigned, and destroyed "Death" which is the "Last Enemy". Once "Death" is destroyed, He hands the Kingdom over to God the Father so that God may be ALL in ALL. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28) So my dear brother in Christ, I don't know what Bible you are reading, but Scripture is certainly not silent about His Reign. It's just up to you to figure out the TRUTH.


I accept that the Son of man, Christ, will be given a dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that all the peoples should worship/serve Him, (Daniel 7:14)

Here are the sequences of events:

1) The AOD occurs - and "Great Tribulation" begins
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
2) The rule and reign of the Antichrist for 3.5 years
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
2a) The Church is persecuted - some suffer martyrdom
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
2b) The Church is protected in the Wilderness
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
3) The Great Tribulation is cut Short for the sake of the Elect (Rapture)
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
4) God's Wrath is poured out on the Earth
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
5) The Tribulation period is over
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
6) Christ comes in the Clouds
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
7) Those who have become Believers and remain alive at His Coming are Gathered in Un-Resurrected bodies
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
8) Satan is capture - and his Antichrist; Satan is bound to the Abyss; the Antichrist is cast into the Lake of Fire
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
9) His Feet touch the Mount of Olives and it splits from East to West
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
10) A remnant of Israel and those nations who have come against Israel will flee towards Him
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
11) The Sheep & Goats Judgment commences
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
12) The Millennial Reign ensues
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
13) The Earth is repopulated by those allowed into the Millennial Kingdom
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
14) The 1,000 years are up
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
15) Satan is let loose for a "little season"
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
16) Fire from God the Father comes from Heaven to consume the wicked offspring that was born during the Millennium
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
17) Heaven & Earth disappears
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
18) The Great White Throne appears
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
19) The Wicked are Judged - and subsequently cast into the Lake of Fire
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
20) Christ hands over the Kingdom to God the Father and the Eternal State ensues.
- {Scripture reference(s) required to justify this statement.}
In closing, I'm certainly NOT dogmatic about my views, but I have lined it up as close to what I truly believe Scripture has provided.


Perhaps, a few scriptural references may help to clear up whether or not "your list" of 20 plus events are actually based on scripture or are just a mystical fantasy of the person who originally came up with this list.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Dec 22, 2015 10:00 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:To continue.....my dear brother in Christ Jay Ross :mrgreen:

Jay Ross wrote:For Gog to be involved in these two event, which will be 1,000 plus years apart, then Gog is not human, but must be a fallen heavenly host, who will rise up out of the Bottomless Pit, the Abyss, where he will be incarcerated at the end of this present age, after it is unlocked, after the decreed 1,000 year period, to do his thing during the little while period before the coming of Christ and the final judgement of the creation and all that is of it.


Jay Ross, you are way off base here. This is where your apparent "mystical" reasoning comes into play - and is certainly NOT based on Scripture. Let's take a look at what Ezekiel 39:11-16 has to say about what you just erroneously wrote:

Ezekiel 39:11-16 - New King James Version (NKJV)

The Burial of Gog

11) It will come to pass in that day that I will give Gog a burial place there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea; and it will obstruct travelers, because there they will bury Gog and all his multitude. Therefore they will call it the Valley of Hamon Gog. 12) For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them, in order to cleanse the land. 13) Indeed all the people of the land will be burying, and they will gain renown for it on the day that I am glorified,” says the Lord God. 14) “They will set apart men regularly employed, with the help of a search party, to pass through the land and bury those bodies remaining on the ground, in order to cleanse it. At the end of seven months they will make a search. 15) The search party will pass through the land; and when anyone sees a man’s bone, he shall set up a marker by it, till the buriers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16) The name of the city will also be Hamonah. Thus they shall cleanse the land.”’


So, my question to you is: If Gog is "incarcerated at the end of this present age" Then how is it that Scripture has God Himself giving him a "burial place" in Israel?

Jay Ross wrote:How the fallen heavenly host will manifest himself as "Gog" on both occasions so that we will be able to see him in action is beyond my comprehension at this present time. However, I am not sure that it is an answer that I must solve or completely resolve to have insight into God's unfolding End Time prophecies.


If I may...... the reason why you are unable to see that the "fallen heavenly host will manifest himself as Gog" - is because it is NOT in Scripture - and is further the reason why it is "beyond" your "comprehension at this present time". It's just NOT there.

Jay Ross, it's truly time to leave the Mystical; Fairy Tale; Fictional type NONSENSE alone - and stick with what is written in Scripture! :sunshine:


In the Old testament the OT:1463 reference to Gog is only found in two distinct places, the first of which is within the genealogy section of 1 Chronicles 5:4 and 9 times in Ezekiel 38-39 where the reference is more closely linked to a particular people group which is manifesting the fallen heavenly host figuratively also called "Gog." There are no other references to the Hebrew root word, OT:1463, in the Hebrew text of the Old Testament. Perhaps, what is being reflected here is our respective scholarship where I have allowed a concept to remain unresolved until such time that God wants it to be revealed whereas your approach where you want scripture nailed down to a fixed interpretation, irrespective as to whether or not that is also god's understanding of how that portion of scripture should be understood.

I am happy to allow the idea/concept that "Gog" may be a fallen heavenly host whose dominion/influence is inhabited by a people group know as "Gog" such that they manifest the influence of the fallen heavenly host that we also refer to as Gog.

Whether or not his concept/understanding is truly reflective of God's understanding of scripture is not the issue. The issue is whether or not we are prepared to allow god to review the actual truth to us when he desires to do so.

With that being said, I am content to consider that my expressed views whether they be mystical or not are fairly close to the actual money, so to speak.

Shalom
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby brett on Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:20 pm

Here is a very concise and helpful look at the timing of the Ezekiel prophecies concerning Gog Magog

http://youtu.be/AzN4lUj2EOY

KJV ONLY !
The KJV is the only PURE translation. Avoid modern corruptions like the NIV, they have been altered to support the coming Anti-Christ.
"The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." Psalm 12:6-7
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Exit40 on Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:54 am

I presently don't have video capability. I'm kinda tired of watching TV stuff anyway, and written form is easier to study back and forth through the presentation. Other than Scripture itself I mean. Is there a written narrative for this anywhere Brett ?


God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:58 am

brett wrote:Here is a very concise and helpful look at the timing of the Ezekiel prophecies concerning Gog Magog

http://youtu.be/AzN4lUj2EOY



Brett,

I personally want to thank you for that link. All I can say is WOW!

This video is a must for the Serious Student of Bible Prophecy. In it I have discovered the writings and/or commentary by "J Paul Tanner". Please go to his website (or Google his name) and print out his commentary on:
"Rethinking Ezekiel's Invasion by Gog".

The link to the youtube video alone has provided me with some key information as to how the book of Ezekiel "may not" be in chronological order.

I will do some deeper studying, as the video makes so much sense, and appears to be supported with Scripture.

Thanks again Brett!
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:17 pm

Seems to me we had this discussion years back, concerning Gog/Magog and the timing of events.

I tend towards the idea that Gog is in fact the antichrist, though I do not think he starts out that way, he may be a man who leads the first battle, but somewhere along the way he becomes the antichrist.

I also think that the Battle described in Ezekiel concerning Gog, begins just before the midpoint of the 70th week. Rather than one big battle, I see it as many battles fought in succession. Just like any war, there are many battles leading up to it's culmination. The opening scene of war described in Ezekiel may be the first in the succession of battles, and coincides with the opening of the pit in Revelation, I think the locust armies are in fact the armies described in Ezekiel. They go on to destroy 1/3 of mankind, I believe these to be the tribulation martyrs as we know them.

The final battle of the Gog/Magog war will be the battle at Armageddon, when the man who was known as Gog has by then assumed the identity of the Antichrist. He will be slain by the sword that comes from the mouth of the Lord. As far as him being cast alive, I believe that refers to his resurrection, because there is a resurrection for both the righteous and unrighteous, he will first be killed then raised to a resurrection of judgment.

That there is another battle after the 1000 year reign whose participants are described as Magog, is not contradictory, there will be survivors from the nations that were known as "Magog" who will live into the millennium whose descendants will populate the earth during that time. Those descendants will also be known spiritually as "Magog", because they are the offspring of the survivors.

As for the whole Islamic paradigm, I can see how people draw that conclusion, personally however I think that the Antichrist will not be solely Muslim, I think that he will bring people of all religious backgrounds together. He will claim to be the Mahdi, and the Christ, and the Buddha...etc... People will worship him, he will declare himself to be God. People will also worship the dragon, and I don't think they will do so unwittingly. The Muslims, the Jews, many who call themselves "Christians", Buddhists, and all the earth will worship Satan and the "beast". He might start out as a so called muslim, or even a so called christian, but in the end he will turn all souls toward the worship of the great deceiver Satan and toward worship of himself as the adversary's instrument.

RT
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Douggg on Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:55 pm

1whowaits wrote:It is my opinion that the relative timing of Gog-Magog can be determined approximately by the condition of Israel before and after Gog-Magog as described in Ezek 38-39.


1. Russia is physically present in the middle east.
2. Jesus's return will likely correspond to the fall feasts.
3. The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years is a feast of tabernacles fall feast event.
4. The Jews, many of them, expect the messianic era to follow Gog/Magog.
5. 7 years follow Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 - then the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20
5. The little horn, the prince who shall come, and embraced as the messiah will oversee the reading of the law.
6. The little horn comes out of the final form of the EU ten leader government.

Therefore, Gog/Magog this summer July/August - if the EU has made the changes to the ten leader form of government.

If not, then next year, July/August.
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Re: When Does Gog-Magog occur?

Postby Ready1 on Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:24 pm

Douggg wrote:Therefore, Gog/Magog this summer July/August - if the EU has made the changes to the ten leader form of government.

If not, then next year, July/August.


If not, then sometime after that. :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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