King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

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King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby morpheus on Thu May 21, 2015 9:47 pm

Watching events unfold in the middle east, I would like to propose a possible theory. Daniel 11 talks about the king of the North battling the king of the south. I think we need to look at this as an Iran (Shiite) King of the North vs. Saudi Arabia (Sunni) King of the South war. When the nation of Palestine is finally formed, I think we will see the appearance of the little horn that replaces three and brings about a ten nation revived caliphate, the eighth kingdom, out of the seventh beast kingdoms. Is this a new theory or has somebody already proposed it?
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Fri May 22, 2015 6:39 am

Hi Morpheus. No doubt the sunni/shia conflict is relevant in our time period, and likely into the end time battles period. However, Ezekiel 38 lists Persia/shia-Iran as an also ran, evidently along with the King of the North, so I would think their position would align them with the current nation of sunni-Turkey, which I believe to represent the King of the North. This doesn't appear to be happening today, but there are under currents which do point to that alignment. All the shia sects together only amount to about 20% of islam so that is another factor that limits their influence. The recent alignment of Saudi and Turkey to fight against isis is a bit remarkable considering the old animosities from pre WWI, the Ottoman/Arab conflicts that had kept them divided. But Turkey is good enough friends with mutual ally Qatar and has been making financial inroads with the other Gulf nations, on top of that is their overall regional status and relations with the West/NATO, and despite their dislike for Egypt which has become an expensive step child for the Saudi's, the situation suggests the Saudi's almost expect Turkey to be able to influence Iran enough to keep them at bay while fighting against their mutual islamic dissident isis. This does get complicated, doesn't it ?

I think what we are seeing today is ... I had been thinking Israel is the land brought back from the sword in Eze 38, as Israel becomes the focus of that Prophecy. After watching isis and the turmoil they are causing I am beginning to see a different picture. Consider the Middle East prior to WWI was all islamic, ruled by the Ottoman caliphate. Post WWI the land was broken up in nations with borders, much different than the previous land. In essence one could say the ME area became the 'land' brought back from the 'sword', islam that is, and present day nations with their borders came into being. One can almost say that land was divided up. So, as we look at the current structure what we are seeing is isis attempting to erase those borders and bring in their version of a caliphate. I see this as the beginning of the 'kings who have no kingdom', Revelation 17, trying to form up with the ultimate goal of conquering Israel. The current rulers of the ME nations today may or may not have a part in this ' no kingdom as yet', that would be an individual circumstance I believe. It seems rich islamists back whomever they will, their attempts to fulfill their prophecies actually fulfilling Scriptural Prophecy's, while powers that be, nations and rulers, try to maintain their status quo. Can we see this is all revolving around Syria ? It's not so much what is happening there, but when is it going to happen.

Getting back to the OP, it seems unlikely Iran/Persia will be the King of the North, but rather will be aligned with this King along with the other peoples of Ezekiel 38. As I believe all the end times battles of Isaiah 17-19/Psalm 83/ Ezekiel 38-39 tie in with Armageddon being the culmination of the battles I believe what we see today is the beginning of the battle lines being drawn. As such it makes sense let time pass in order for Iran/Persia to become what Scripture states they will be, an also ran with the many others of the North, along with the North African nations, while the Saudi's and Gulf nations along with Egypt have more of a tendency to resemble the nations of the South.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Fri May 22, 2015 1:16 pm

David is your reference to Revelation 17 valid for the present time or is it applicable to our distant future?

Revelation 17:5-18: -

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast

But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

"Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."
NKJV


Please not the reference highlighted in red above as a clue as to when this passage is applicable. Your comments.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Sat May 23, 2015 5:57 am

Jay, my reference to Revelation 17 is about the kings, and relevant to our not too distant future with respect to the King of the North. Regarding the beast, you do realize this one is captured, destroyed, and cast into the lake of fire prior to the 1000 years right ? This happens in our time period.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Sat May 23, 2015 1:54 pm

Exit40 wrote:Jay, my reference to Revelation 17 is about the kings, and relevant to our not too distant future with respect to the King of the North. Regarding the beast, you do realize this one is captured, destroyed, and cast into the lake of fire prior to the 1000 years right ? This happens in our time period.

God Bless You

David


If you are looking for what is happening at present, then it would be better to Look around Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51 to discern who the present King of the North is with respect to Israel and who will lead the attack to destroy Israel in our near future.

However, Revelation 17 is about the four beastly kings that arise in our distant future out of the Abyss as the scripture I quoted above clearly indicates, where they will be imprisoned when they are judged in our near future. Isaiah 24:21-23 explains this where the fallen heavenly hosts also includes but will not be limited to the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and that they will be judged at the time of the rebellion of the people of the earth which occurs at Armageddon in our near future Then after the 1,000 years of their imprisonment has passed, they will be released for a little while. During their little while the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 will appear as a single united beast with all of the attributes of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 acting in unison together to have one last crack at the peoples of the earth and God. Then they will be judged and thrown into the fiery lake of the second death as told in Revelation 19. (This same story is also told in Daniel 7:19-27 but it also includes Satan as the Little Horn in the events that it describes.) Revelation 20 then tells the story of the events surrounding Satan and what happened to him from the time of Armageddon until his judgement and dispatch into the lake of Fire of the second death. There is some overlapping of the little while period in the telling of the events of what is to happen in our distant future in the Book of Revelation. The book is not necessarily linear in the telling of the end time story. It does move back and forwards as it recounts all of the events, just like any good novel.

The Book of judges is like this. If you add all of the years mentioned in this chapter it spans more years than is possible for the years available for these stories to have occurred. There are three parallel story lines in the Book of Judges with the longest story line being around 215 years long for the Book of judges to fit into the 480 years spoken about in 1 Kings 6:1of the time span between when Israel left Egypt and the foundation stone of Solomon's temple was laid.

We need to ensure that our timeline for the end days is correct otherwise it simple just does not fit what is written.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Sun May 24, 2015 6:58 am

Jay Ross wrote:
If you are looking for what is happening at present, then it would be better to Look around Isaiah 13 and Jeremiah 50-51 to discern who the present King of the North is with respect to Israel and who will lead the attack to destroy Israel in our near future.

However, Revelation 17 is about the four beastly kings that arise in our distant future out of the Abyss as the scripture I quoted above clearly indicates, where they will be imprisoned when they are judged in our near future. Isaiah 24:21-23 explains this where the fallen heavenly hosts also includes but will not be limited to the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and that they will be judged at the time of the rebellion of the people of the earth which occurs at Armageddon in our near future
Shalom

jay ross


Hi Jay. Frankly Brother, there is not much 'clear' about your interpretations. I know your view is different from most, sadly, you are not able to clearly impart your knowledge to others, myself being one that sincerely attempts to understand. As another that struggles with Prophecy I want to understand you, however I don't get your extrapolations, as you have not explained how you have arrived at your conclusions adequately. It is difficult to understand the 'all' of your understanding when only pieces parts are presented in different threads to refute what you consider to be the common knowledge. Perhaps if you started a thread to present your information in an orderly manner I could better understand you. However, having read your lengthy thesis already, may I suggest a rewrite to more accurately and in an orderly fashion explain the progress of your understanding. A new thread would a proper place to do this.

I write this with all due respect as I believe you are on to something, I just am not sure how you have arrived there from the Scriptures you have presented.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Sun May 24, 2015 2:20 pm

David, I am so sorry that you are "confused" by what I write, but sadly I am not responsible for the state of the muddled thinking on the end times that is presently the accepted "norm" for many people at this time.

Getting people to change, is fearful for many and as such "change" is strongly resisted and opposed.

What I learned a little over 15 years ago, is in direct opposition to the accepted norm of around 3,500 or so years of accepted interpretational understanding. Also interpretational understanding of the end times has been used for political purposes to demonise the other side in conflicts, where power has been sort to control the lives of many. The reformation wars is just one such period where this was so.

Then as now they have used scriptural passages out of context to justify their position(s) and above I pointed out why Revelation 17 could not be used to identify the King of the North, or the King of the South, because this scripture reference was not applicable to this present time being discussed and was in fact concerned with prophecy which will unfold in our distant future over 1,000 years into our future. I even highlighted the key in red in the passage which indicated this fact for us.

Jeremiah 50-51 does discuss the "kings of the north" over a period of some 2,000 plus years and is pertinent to what is happening today. It tells us of the "king of the north" around 2,000 years ago, and also the "king of the north" who has been flexing his muscles and power in the middle east today.

It also tells us what will happen to the nations that attempted to heal Babylon when they ignored God and his prophesy concerning the required destruction of Babylon.

Today, we are seeing Babylon slowly being destroyed as God foretold Jeremiah and he recorded in Jeremiah 50-51.

There is no layering of God's prophetic word as some claim in these two chapters. The only requirement is understanding the timeframe of events being presented. The main events in the past in these two chapters is separated from this present time by a declared "time gap" in the prophecy of a little over 2,000 years. This gap may make it more difficult for some to understand.

I can only point to scripture that people should consider in their search for understanding. It is the Holy Spirit that will reveal God's purposes and understanding for the scriptures that I use and mention.

May the Lord give you the patience and the time to read and reflect on the subject of the end times and to begin to construct your own timeline of how all the events unfold.

If it has taken me 15 years or so to reach my present point in my understanding and if I am still learning new revelations with respect to the end times, then I cannot expect others to understanding it in one post or one reading of an article or book that you suggest that I should write to explain what God has shown me.

All I can do is encourage you to continually read the word of God. However, the end times is only a small part of what God wants us to know concerning these times and he is wanting us to gain insight into his heart for all of the peoples of the earth so that we become his salt and his light in the small patch of the earth that we occupy where we rub shoulders with other people while doing His bidding in those moments of interaction with the people around us.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Mon May 25, 2015 6:40 am

Jay, it's not that I am " confused " by your writings, it is that your writings are confused, and lack the cohesion to form an opinion based on an intelligent presentation of Scripture. As I have said, I think you are on to something, however you do not explain your extrapolations and interpretation very well. For instance ..

Then as now they have used scriptural passages out of context to justify their position(s) and above I pointed out why Revelation 17 could not be used to identify the King of the North, or the King of the South, because this scripture reference was not applicable to this present time being discussed and was in fact concerned with prophecy which will unfold in our distant future over 1,000 years into our future. I even highlighted the key in red in the passage which indicated this fact for us.


This is the highlighted portion ..

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.


This passage in no way states what you say it does. Rather, this beast is dealt with prior to the 1000 years, much Scripture speaks to this, with the following passage for confirmation ..

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I understand your belief the 4 beasts will be in the pit, as well as others per Isa 24, but that passage does not confirm the ten horned beast will be there with them, as Rev 20:10 shows. So, where are we now ? Back to the King of the North.

Jer 51:28 Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Mon May 25, 2015 2:59 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip>

This is the highlighted portion ..

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition.


This passage in no way states what you say it does. Rather, this beast is dealt with prior to the 1000 years, much Scripture speaks to this, with the following passage for confirmation ..

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I understand your belief the 4 beasts will be in the pit, as well as others per Isa 24, but that passage does not confirm the ten horned beast will be there with them, as Rev 20:10 shows. So, where are we now ? Back to the King of the North.

Jer 51:28 Prepare against her the nations with the kings of the Medes, the captains thereof, and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.

God Bless You

David


David, your interpretation of the Book of Revelation is, I assume linear and your linear interpretation of the Book of Revelation is forcing a particular understanding where you are saying that the beast of Revelation 19 is sent to the lake of fire before the commencement of the 1,000 years that Satan is interned into the bottomless pit.

Now if we read Daniel 7:11-12 we are told the following: -
Daniel 7:11-12: - I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the {little} horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
ESV


The question that I have is how long is the time span of the "season and a time" in the above biblical passage. I would suggest to you that this time frame is the same as the "1000 years" and the "a little while" period spoken about in Revelation 20:3 where it states in that verse: -
Revelation 20:3: - and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
ESV


Now this judgement above occurs at the time of Armageddon, and, as recorded in Isaiah 24:21-23, the fallen heavenly hosts and the kings and armies of the rebellion on the earth are imprisoned in the Abyss. The four facetted beast of Daniel 7:19-27, (which will be the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 acting in unison as a singular beast), which rises up out of the Abyss is not in view at this time but for it to rise up out of the Abyss, it must first be imprisoned there.

If the fallen heavenly hosts which includes the four beasts and the little horn of Daniel 7:1-12, and Satan all rise up out of the Bottomless pit during the little while period of Rev 20:-3, then Revelation 9, 13, 17 (which was originally omitted in this post) and 19 where the four facetted beast, the two horn beast, i.e. the little horn/false prophet, the army of scorpions and Satan all rise up out of bottomless pit during the little while period which occurs after the 1,000 year period of their imprisonment in the locked bottomless pit/abyss.

We are told that at the beginning of the Millennium Age when the time of the Gentiles trampling the sanctuary for 2,300 years is over, that Israel will all be saved in Roman 11. The fullness of the time of the gentile heathens is marked by the judgement of the rebellion of the people on the earth when the kings and their respective armies are drawn together at Armageddon to deal with the "Terrorist Nation" called Israel. It is just before this time that Satan is thrown out of heaven down to the face of the earth from where he is seized bound and imprisoned at the end of this present age.

In Daniel 2:34-35 and 44-45 we are told of the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom on the face of the earth based on the foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God when he is given dominion over all the peoples of the earth who should worship him.

Now with respect to the kings of the north as mentioned in Jeremiah 50-51, the first King of the North mentioned is the King of the Greek Empire which captures Babylon and then goes on to desolate and devastate the land such that it remains desolate and devastated for a period of two ages (approx. for 2,000 years ) after which we see another King of the North come and occupy Babylon and this king came with many other kings and their armies, but that they did not destroy the land but they attempted to heal the land. Afterwards, the King of the North and his cohort kings essentially withdrew their armies, another king rose up to decimate Babylon which is doing the work which God required of the nations to do to destroy Babylon. The King of the North and the nations at the edge of the seas will be punished when they are invaded by a few scorpions who when they multiply within the land and become more in number will claim these nations for themselves.

Then the king from the north will come, with no one to stop him, to destroy Babylon and raise its walls to the ground. The words of the prophecy ends with the following : -

Jeremiah 51:58: - "Thus says the Lord of hosts:

The broad wall of Babylon
shall be leveled to the ground,
and her high gates
shall be burned with fire.
The peoples labor for nothing,
and the nations weary themselves only for fire."
ESV


It all depends on how good of a story teller we are and whether or not the facts back up the story that we tell.

Very often people are not that interested in the actual facts of the matter but only in a good story that tickles their ears and satisfies their desires.

Often this is because the people do not understand that the stories they are told is based on lies and they accept these lies as "God's truth."

Shalom

Edited to add Rev 17 to the list of chapter where the four facetted beast is mentioned in the book of Revelation.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Tue May 26, 2015 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Mon May 25, 2015 5:29 pm

Jay Ross wrote:In Daniel 2:34-35 and 44-45 we are told of the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom on the face of the earth based on the foundational truth that Jesus is the Son of God when he is given dominion over all the peoples of the earth who should worship him.


In the following passages....
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
...............................................
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
................................................
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Jay, you are saying, are you not, that the "Kingdom" of God shall NOT BE Established Until or in your words, "WHEN he is given dominion over all the peoples of the earth who should worship him"?
So, as I understand it, you do not see this part, "44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed", as in any sense even Begun to be fulfilled Yet?
The passage quoted the immediately previous sentence (Daniel 2:44) is Still Yet Entirely Future? Is that what you're saying?

I'm not intending to discuss this or that kingdom at length in their historic successions, admittedly it's not an area that I've given a great deal of study to. it just seems to me though that Daniel 2:44 is speaking of the Establishment of the Kingdom of God in the Unseen and still yet Unfulfilled in the Literal Sense manner. And that the Kingdom of God was Established BY Christ during his ministry and has been in the process of fulfillment until the Fullness and Power of it FILLS the EARTH in the Literal Sense.

just my :2cents:
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 26, 2015 12:43 am

shorttribber wrote:<snip>

Jay, you are saying, are you not, that the "Kingdom" of God shall NOT BE Established Until or in your words, "WHEN he is given dominion over all the peoples of the earth who should worship him"?
So, as I understand it, you do not see this part, "44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed", as in any sense even Begun to be fulfilled Yet?
The passage quoted the immediately previous sentence (Daniel 2:44) is Still Yet Entirely Future? Is that what you're saying?



I'm not intending to discuss this or that kingdom at length in their historic successions, admittedly it's not an area that I've given a great deal of study to. it just seems to me though that Daniel 2:44 is speaking of the Establishment of the Kingdom of God in the Unseen and still yet Unfulfilled in the Literal Sense manner. And that the Kingdom of God was Established BY Christ during his ministry and has been in the process of fulfillment until the Fullness and Power of it FILLS the EARTH in the Literal Sense.

just my :2cents:


The answer must be both Yes and No to your question(s)

Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation? Was not Christ's death on the Cross the means by which our sin was dealt with so that we, through God's Grace, could receive righteousness such that we would be worthy to enter into the Kingdom of God after God establishes it on the earth, at the time when the heavens and the earth and all of creation is renewed?

Is it not true that, since the Second advent of Christ is a distant future event, when we who are alive today die, we will await the time of the Final Judgement when we all arise, as it were from a very deep sleep, to stand before the Judgement Throne to either receive our inheritance as the Sons of God and to enter into eternity or to be found wanting and to be dispatched into the Lake of Fire which is the Second death?

The Kingdom which is established at the time of the Kings (Daniel 2;44) occurs after the time that,

1. The beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and the other fallen hosts of heaven are judged before God in Heaven (Isa 24:21-22) and gathered up and imprisoned in a pit to await their final punishment.
2. The rebellion on the earth is dealt with and the Kings and their armies are punished. and gathered together as prisoners in a pit to await their time of punishment in the distant future. (Isa 24:21-22, Rev 16:12-16)
3. The decreed 2,300 years of the trampling of the Sanctuary ends, (Dan 8:13-14)
4. All of Israel is redeemed after the end of the decreed time of the gentile trampling the Sanctuary (Rom 11:25-27)
5. The Son of man is given a dominion over all of the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him (Dan 7:13-14)

and at the time that a stone comes down out of heaven to cause the statue to be broken into pieces in our distant future.

Christ in Matthew 24:32 gives us an indication of the timing when the summer threshing season begins when he told us that from the time that Israel beings to bud new leaves, that the Spring season will pass before the summer harvest season will begin.

In real life, around 90-100 days will pass between when the early spring begins and the start of the summer harvest season. If the accepted Daniel understanding is true that a day is as year in Daniel 9:24-27, then the 90 to 100 days represents 90 to 100 years and that the above six events will occur sometime between the year 2038 and 2048 which is a near future event.

However the stone that come down out of heaven and strikes the statue in Daniel 2 will cause the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold to be crushed and become like chaff from the summer threshing floors and that over time the wind will disburse the chaff on the threshing floor such that the kingdoms in the statue are no more and the only kingdom that will be left will be the messianic Kingdom established by God at the beginning of the Millennium age.

The summer harvest season is the Millennium age and it will being in our near future but not in our immediate future.

When god establishes his Kingdom on the earth it will be seen and known in the literal sense.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Tue May 26, 2015 8:03 am

Jay Ross wrote:
David, your interpretation of the Book of Revelation is, I assume linear and your linear interpretation of the Book of Revelation is forcing a particular understanding where you are saying that the beast of Revelation 19 is sent to the lake of fire before the commencement of the 1,000 years that Satan is interned into the bottomless pit.


When you make an assumption ...

It all depends on how good of a story teller we are and whether or not the facts back up the story that we tell.

Very often people are not that interested in the actual facts of the matter but only in a good story that tickles their ears and satisfies their desires.

Often this is because the people do not understand that the stories they are told is based on lies and they accept these lies as "God's truth."

Shalom


Part of my understanding comes from the 'story' you are attempting to tell. That you are unable to adequately tell it is not sufficient reason for ad hominen.

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Tue May 26, 2015 8:16 am

Jay, is it your contention the beast of Revelation 9 is not the beast of Revelation 17 ? If so please explain how a seven head ten horn beast can also be the four faceted beast you speak of, and the relevant Scripture please to explain why there is not 1k year gap between the two. I am particularly interested in how these beasts can be the same as there is a beast that is in the Lake of Fire for the 1k year period leading up to the end of that age.

Rev 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 26, 2015 10:21 am

Jay Ross wrote:Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?

Not the Theocratic one that we are speaking of as "Governing Kingdoms", no, I don't think so.
Jay Ross wrote:Was not Christ's death on the Cross the means by which our sin was dealt with so that we, through God's Grace, could receive righteousness such that we would be worthy to enter into the Kingdom of God after God establishes it on the earth, at the time when the heavens and the earth and all of creation is renewed?

Respectfully, no again, we Have Received THAT Righteousness OF Christ Now, Today, and By Having Already Received Christ's Righteousness imparted to us Already, we Are IN His Unseen Kingdom Now.

According to Isaiah and several others, such as I've already quoted from Daniel 2, The Kingdom of God was First "Established" By Christ During His First Parousia, as Head and Governor Of It......Eternally.

Is. 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the........... increase......... of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,....... to....... order it, and................ to establish it............... with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So, it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?"

So, to use these words, "44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" as a kind of TIME MARKING EVENT for the Establishing of a Future Theocratic Kingdom under Christ where ALL WILL FREELY WORSHIP Him is in error I believe.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 26, 2015 2:35 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:
David, your interpretation of the Book of Revelation is, I assume linear and your linear interpretation of the Book of Revelation is forcing a particular understanding where you are saying that the beast of Revelation 19 is sent to the lake of fire before the commencement of the 1,000 years that Satan is interned into the bottomless pit.


When you make an assumption ...

It all depends on how good of a story teller we are and whether or not the facts back up the story that we tell.

Very often people are not that interested in the actual facts of the matter but only in a good story that tickles their ears and satisfies their desires.

Often this is because the people do not understand that the stories they are told is based on lies and they accept these lies as "God's truth."

Shalom


Part of my understanding comes from the 'story' you are attempting to tell. That you are unable to adequately tell it is not sufficient reason for ad hominen.

God Bless

David


David, I was acknowledging that I was not a good story teller in the portion that you quoted above. It is my hope that the "facts" that I present are accepted but the truth is that many people's understanding of the "facts" means that what I write is often rejected because it is going against the accepter norm of interpretation. What I am presenting is also forcing people to change their understanding and change takes time to be accepted; it takes around 40 or so years for a new idea to take some traction in the wider community.

Your last paragraph demonstrates that my story telling skills and style are not up to scratch when I am able to clearly convey my thoughts to the reader.

I apologies if you thought that this was a personnel attack against you.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 26, 2015 3:41 pm

Exit40 wrote:Jay, is it your contention the beast of Revelation 9 is not the beast of Revelation 17 ?

I have gone back and corrected the previous post and added Rev 17 to the list of where the four facetted beast appears in the book of Revelation.

Exit40 wrote:If so please explain how a seven head ten horn beast can also be the four faceted beast you speak of, . . .

If we consider Daniel 7:1-12 the four independent beasts have 7 heads and ten horns between them such that if they act as if they were one beast as they do in Daniel 7:19-27 and in the Book of Revelation 9, 13, 17 and 19 we are seeing all four beasts acting in unison. Daniel 7:19-27 also tells us of other characteristics which are common with the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, i.e. teeth of iron, claws of brass etc.

The reason why I speak of the Daniel 7:19-27 beast of a four facetted beast is that if we look at the original text, I understand that it could be interpreted as a four sided beast, such that each side when viewed shows one of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and its characteristics.

Exit40 wrote:. . . and the relevant Scripture please to explain why there is no 1k year gap between the two. I am particularly interested in how these beasts can be the same as there is a beast that is in the Lake of Fire for the 1k year period leading up to the end of that age.

Rev 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Rev 17:8
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


God Bless

David


The 1,000 year gap in the story of the beasts, and the fallen heavenly hosts, occurs between when they are judged at the time of the Armageddon event as I have previously stated and the little while period when they will rise up out of the pit to oppress, through their influence and exercised dominions, the saints once more.

It is my view that Rev 19 and 20 are parallel story line that occur during the same little while time period. The four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 where sent to the Bottomless pit, three of them will still be alive when they are imprisoned in the Bottomless pit, at the beginning of the Millennium Age to await the time for their punishment of being thrown into the Lake of Fire. The three beasts we are told have their lives prolonged for a season, i.e. 1,000 years, and a time which is the little while period of Revelation 20:3.

In Revelations 9:14, we are told that the four angels who are bound at the River Euphrates, (where the Bottomless Pit is) will be released and these four angels are, in my view, the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 and when they appear from being released they beginning to act in unison as if they were one beast.

In Revelation 13:1-8 we have another view of the four beasts rising as one and in this view we are informed that one of the heads "seemed to have a mortal wound, but that the mortal wound was healed.

In Revelation 13:11-18 we are introduced to a "new beast" with two horns, which will work signs and wonders and force people to worship the first beast. I suspect that this beast/fallen angel is the False Prophet.

In Revelation 17 it describes again the first beast of revelation 13:1-8 as the one on whom the harlot is sitting on.

Revelation 19:1-16 spans the first 1,000 years of the Millennium Age with the picture of the Son of man receiving His bride and the wedding feast and the Son of man receiving his dominion over all the peoples of the earth and ruling them justly.

Then the imagery changes and we are introduced to the great rebellion of men on the earth which occurs when the insolent man, makes a solemn covenant with many on the face of the earth for seven years.

In Revelation 19:17-21, we have the capture of the first beast, the four facetted beast of Rev 13:1-8 and Daniel 7:19-27 captured and judged along with the false prophet, the beast with the two little horns and dispatched into the lake of fire. Then the Horseman slays all the kings and their armies who have rebelled against God and have, once again, come up to Jerusalem to fight against God, during the little while period of Revelation 20:3. They are slain by the sword, by the man on the horse, which issues from His mouth.

Revelation 20 again goes back to the beginning of the Millennium Age and sketches out the fate of Satan during the Millennium age.

I trust that the above goes part of the way in answering your question.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 26, 2015 4:00 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?

Not the Theocratic one that we are speaking of as "Governing Kingdoms", no, I don't think so.


Did not God initially set up a Theocratic Kingdom with Israel? But sadly, did they not later asked for an earthly King?

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Was not Christ's death on the Cross the means by which our sin was dealt with so that we, through God's Grace, could receive righteousness such that we would be worthy to enter into the Kingdom of God after God establishes it on the earth, at the time when the heavens and the earth and all of creation is renewed?

Respectfully, no again, we Have Received THAT Righteousness OF Christ Now, Today, and By Having Already Received Christ's Righteousness imparted to us Already, we Are IN His Unseen Kingdom Now.


I somehow think that you are splitting straws here with your response. In the quote of mine above that you commented on, I did not set out any timeline as to when our sin was dealt with through God's Grace such that we would be able to enter into the Eternity Kingdom of God whether as you say it is in the now but unseen or future in the visible.

However, I would point out, that Jesus also said that there would be some who call Him Lord that He would not acknowledge as His disciples and that he will say of them that "he never knew them."

Yes the Kingdom of God existed at the time of Christ's first advent, yet he still said to the people, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

shorttribber wrote:According to Isaiah and several others, such as I've already quoted from Daniel 2, The Kingdom of God was First "Established" By Christ During His First Parousia, as Head and Governor Of It......Eternally.


Are you really sure about the validity of this statement?

shorttribber wrote:Is. 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the........... increase......... of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom,....... to....... order it, and................ to establish it............... with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So, it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?"

So, to use these words, "44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed" as a kind of TIME MARKING EVENT for the Establishing of a Future Theocratic Kingdom under Christ where ALL WILL FREELY WORSHIP Him is in error I believe.


Perhaps the difference in our views are associated with the time lines that we have independently constructed.

I am not that sure you can squeeze up the described events as you have done for Isaiah 9:6-7 into such a short timeframe. It is my view that the timeframe is much longer than you have suggested.

If the timeframe is not as short as you are suggesting then will you admit your error.

Also you have stated that " it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?" which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44.

Daniel 9:44 states: - "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; . . . NKJV" where it is plainly stated that it is God Himself who will establish the everlasting kingdom in our near future.

Perhaps, the error belongs elsewhere in this case.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Tue May 26, 2015 5:41 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Jay Ross wrote:Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?shorttribber wrote:Not the Theocratic one that we are speaking of as "Governing Kingdoms", no, I don't think so.

Jay wrote: Did not God initially set up a Theocratic Kingdom with Israel? But sadly, did they not later asked for an earthly King?

Yes, but it was not Eternal.....it could have been, had they not Rejected Christ. I did not say that God's Kingdom of Heaven (under Christ Jesus as the Head and Governor) was the FIRST Theocratic Kingdom. But, The Kingdom of Heaven under Christ the King IS Eternal.....and has been Growing/Increasing slowly and incrementally every since Christ First Established it at his First Parousia.
Jay Ross wrote:I somehow think that you are splitting straws here with your response. In the quote of mine above that you commented on, I did not set out any timeline as to when our sin was dealt with through God's Grace such that we would be able to enter into the Eternity Kingdom of God whether as you say it is in the now but unseen or future in the visible.

It sounds as though you did set out some form of Timeline when you said this...
Jay Ross wrote:Was not Christ's death on the Cross the means by which our sin was dealt with so that we, through God's Grace, could receive righteousness such that we......... would be worthy......... to enter into the Kingdom of God ....................................after................................... God establishes it on the earth,.............................. at the time when.............. the heavens and the earth and all of creation is renewed?




i'll add more to this later ok?
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Wed May 27, 2015 6:19 am

Jay Ross wrote:I apologies if you thought that this was a personnel attack against you.


Not me personally Jay. I am trying to pick your brain, and to understand the Scriptures you present. I understand the difficulty of trying to propose a different theory.

I trust that the above goes part of the way in answering your question.


It helps, thank you. I am wondering about the vision/dream of Dan 2 and if the beasts are not being confused with that interpretation. Daniel precedes me in this ...

Dan 7:28
Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Wed May 27, 2015 11:48 pm

Exit40 wrote:<snip> I am wondering about the vision/dream of Dan 2 and if the beasts are not being confused with that interpretation. Daniel precedes me in this ...

Dan 7:28
Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.


God Bless You

David


In the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy there are five segment. IMHO, they are, (1) the Babylonians, (2) the Medes/Persian Empire and then (3) the Greek Empire, followed by around 2,000 of desolation and devastation within the land of the Chaldeans/Babylon initiated by the Greek Empire and which ended shortly after WW1 when the fourth Segment, (4) the nation of Iraq came into being. In our recent history, we saw the fifth segment rise up as (5) the Coalition of the Willing which was made up of 20 nations, where the property of the respective nation was either iron or clay. So if each of the ten toes had the two properties of both the iron and the clay, then the number of nations that was represented in the fifth segment is 20.

Now the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are fallen heavenly hosts/fallen angels/demons who are able to influence people groups, kingdoms, nations or empires to inhabit their respective dominions such that as the people groups, kingdoms, nations and/or empires chose to inhabit the respective dominion of a beast, the personification of that beast rises up out of the sea of people such that the characteristic of the beasts is visible within the people group, kingdom, nation or empire who have collectively chosen to inhabit the dominion of that particular beast.

As such, the nations of the respective five segments that go to make up the statue prophecy may well have also inhabit one or more of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12.

It is my view that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are singular entities who are also described as kings, within the Bible prophecies, and should be viewed separately from the people groups, kingdoms, nations or empires that have chosen to inhabit one or more of the dominions of the four beasts. However, if we apply the KISS principle, it is easier to consider that the people groups, kingdoms, nations or empires only inhabit one of the four beasts dominions. It is also possible for more than one people group, kingdom, nation or empire to inhabit the same dominion of the respective beast at the same time or during different periods of time in our past history or during this present time.

As such it is possible for the manifestations of the respective beasts to rise up and wane within in the sea of people over time such that the turbulent waves of the sea rising up crash onto the shore line of time over the ages such that the influence of the respective beasts comes and goes over time such that it is possible to say that the dominate beastly influence at a particular time in history has been found in a particular people group, kingdom, nation or empire. That means that the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 can be associated with a particular people group, kingdom, nation or empire having dominance at or during a particular period of time in our history.

The above may sound complicated to get our laughing matter around but in ministry when dealing with people the above is very common. Jesus even gave guidance on the subject matter of healing people possessed by demons and how we should go about it.

If demons/beasts can influence a single person, they are also capable of influencing larger numbers of people to act within their dominion.

This is where I believe that people like Joel Richardson still have it wrong in that they are looking for a particular people group with respect to only one beast being active as we come up to the end of this age. It is my view that all of the beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are still presently active even today.

If we consider the Daniel 8 prophecy where the activities of the Grecian empire is described, it is possible to discern that there are similarities between the goat with four horns and the Third beast which has four heads and that the characteristic of the Goat image and the third beast is that they exercise dominion over others. In daniel 8 we are told the following prophecy concerning the Sanctuary: -

Daniel 8:8-14, 28: - Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?"

And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed."

. . . .

"And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future."
NKJV


If seventy weeks of years equates a year for a day, such that 490 days is representative of 490 years, then it follows that the 2,300 days in this chapter represents 2,300 years.

If the decreed end of this prophecy is to occur during the Armageddon Event, which I have previously suggested will occur sometime during the period 2038-2048 AD, then the time that the trampling of the sanctuary began was around the time between 252-262 BC, well after Alexandra the great had died and the empire had been split such that it now had four horns/heads. This would suggest that the conclusion that the Third beast came onto the world stage at the time of Alexandra the great may not be actually true. I would suggest that the influence of the Third beast over the Grecian empires actually occurred after the death of Alexandra the great.

The Grecian influence over the Temple mound, such that the Sanctuary was being trampled by the heathen gentiles, probably started around the year 252-263 BC.

The above demonstrates that the singular beast can be found manifested in more than one people group at any one time and for this influence to continue over 2,300 years, then the influence of the third beast has moved from one people group to another over time. If we consider world history, we can see the domination of people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires over others has continued for around 2,300 years and that this influence of the third beast will cess for a time/season in our near future.

I will apologise now if the above explanation is not easy for you to follow but the concept in my view is rather simple but for others it is difficult to comprehend.

As such I may not have answered your question completely.

Shalom
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Fri May 29, 2015 7:12 am

Jay Ross wrote:
I will apologise now if the above explanation is not easy for you to follow but the concept in my view is rather simple but for others it is difficult to comprehend.

As such I may not have answered your question completely.

Shalom


HI Jay, thanks for the explanation. I am sure much study went into your premise, but I have to wonder how you came up with the number 20 regarding the ten toes with that representing the 'coalition of the willing'. That coalition had about 40 or so member, possibly 18 core members, and maybe only 4 actual major participants. That point being, even today the number comes into question, and I don't see how it can apply to a number not stated in the Scripture. This doesn't mean your other explanations are in error, but this is a good place t start discussing anyway.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Fri May 29, 2015 4:29 pm

Exit40 wrote:HI Jay, thanks for the explanation. I am sure much study went into your premise, but I have to wonder how you came up with the number 20 regarding the ten toes with that representing the 'coalition of the willing'. That coalition had about 40 or so member, possibly 18 core members, and maybe only 4 actual major participants. That point being, even today the number comes into question, and I don't see how it can apply to a number not stated in the Scripture. This doesn't mean your other explanations are in error, but this is a good place t start discussing anyway.

God Bless You

David


The list of the twenty nations that were part of the actual invasion force was compiled from a published causality list available on the internet at the time that I did my search. Other countries may have had troops on the ground in Iraq, but were not part of the occupation force of Iraq i.e. Japan. There were other countries that assisted in the occupation of Iraq by being "staging points for the actual invasion" but did not participate in the actual invasion, i.e. Turkey, Kuwait etc.

The Coalition of the Willing - the fifth kingdom consisted of the following twenty nations which went into Iraq to occupy it was made up of the following nations based on the causality list that I had found: -

1. U.S.A.,
2. United Kingdom,
3. Italy,
4. Ukraine,
5. Poland,
6. Spain,
7. Bulgaria,
8. Slovakia,
9. Netherlands,
10. Estonia,
11. Thailand,
12. Kazakhstan,
13. El Salvador,
14. Latvia,
15. Denmark,
16. Hungary,
17. Australia,
18. Romania,
19. South Korea, and
20. Georgia

: - feet partly of iron {Islam} and partly of clay {Christianity} Daniel 2:43: - As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. [RSV]

I agree with your statement that many countries were considered as being a member of the Coalition of the Willing but they were not part of the invasion force that occupied Iraq.

If you consider Jeremiah 50-51 you will see a parallel to the recent invasion of Iraq by the Coalition of the Will.

You will also read of the IS invasion and destruction of Iraq as well.

You will also read of the punishment of the nations of the Coalition of the Willing for attempting to heal the land.

Shalom
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Sat May 30, 2015 11:48 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Yes the Kingdom of God existed at the time of Christ's first advent, yet he still said to the people, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Yes, that's what He said, and it would then be important to understand exactly what He meant by "At Hand".
It would seem to me that He meant that it was Within Their Ability to Grasp it or Reach It at That Moment in Time.
That it was Indeed Present With (Parousia) Him, at That Time.......He was Establishing His Governing Presence at His First Coming (Parousia).
Jay Ross wrote:shorttribber wrote:According to Isaiah and several others, such as I've already quoted from Daniel 2, The Kingdom of God was First "Established" By Christ During His First Parousia, as Head and Governor Of It......Eternally.
Jay wrote: Are you really sure about the validity of this statement?

As certain as I can be, Yes.
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps the difference in our views are associated with the time lines that we have independently constructed.

We can only attempt to Understand any Timeline that God has so ordered. We can all be wrong by greater or lesser degrees.........but my understanding of certain Timelines are less wrong than yours maybe :mrgreen:
I'm sorry, just had to be a little silly :mrgreen:
Jay Ross wrote:I am not that sure you can squeeze up the described events as you have done for Isaiah 9:6-7 into such a short timeframe. It is my view that the timeframe is much longer than you have suggested.

I'll have another look at that text to see if it is conflict with any part of what I've suggested thus far then.
Jay Ross wrote:If the timeframe is not as short as you are suggesting then will you admit your error.

Yes, I most assuredly and gladly will....it's very important to me to always and in every case admit error if it is clear enough to me that I am in error.
Jay Ross wrote:Also you have stated that " it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?" which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44.

I stated the following....
shorttribber wrote:So, it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?"

Why did you attach the following sentence to my quote, "which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44."?

I don't understand the point you were intending to make by structuring it that way....could you please explain?

Jay Ross wrote:Daniel 9:44 states( ST corrected to read Daniel 2:44): - "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; . . . NKJV" where it is plainly stated that it is God Himself who will establish the everlasting kingdom in our near future.

I'll check the NKJV then to see if it in fact says, "In Our Near Future"....but I do not believe it says something greatly different than the KJV that I generally use.
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps, the error belongs elsewhere in this case.

Again, I'm unsure what you mean by the above quote.....I'm sorry, please explain
Last edited by shorttribber on Sun May 31, 2015 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Exit40 on Sun May 31, 2015 6:25 am

Jay Ross wrote:
If you consider Jeremiah 50-51 you will see a parallel to the recent invasion of Iraq by the Coalition of the Will.

You will also read of the IS invasion and destruction of Iraq as well.

You will also read of the punishment of the nations of the Coalition of the Willing for attempting to heal the land.

Shalom


Hi Jay. I see how you have arrived at those conclusions. However, I believe there is more to it than just that. Much is yet to be accomplished in Jer 50-51. I am not going to predict what and when, I have no special knowledge. However, it is possible to make reports after events have happened, to point out the Prophecy's are indeed true. Just as you have pointed out the parallels to recent events there in Babylon. I too see isis there, this portion is ongoing today, and I believe will be to some extent right up to the end of this age. The name isis, like the name taliban, is just a name for the brutal wild beasts of the earth imo.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Sun May 31, 2015 6:49 pm

Exit40 wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:
If you consider Jeremiah 50-51 you will see a parallel to the recent invasion of Iraq by the Coalition of the Will.

You will also read of the IS invasion and destruction of Iraq as well.

You will also read of the punishment of the nations of the Coalition of the Willing for attempting to heal the land.

Shalom


Hi Jay. I see how you have arrived at those conclusions. However, I believe there is more to it than just that. Much is yet to be accomplished in Jer 50-51.


Yes, that is very true, however, the time left of this present age to run its course is quickly, is in my opinion no more than 30 years at this time. What is left in Jeremiah 50-51 is the destruction of Babylon and the claiming of the people's land around the edge of the sea by the scorpion "invaders" when their numbers are sufficient within each of the lands will begin to play out shortly.

Exit40 wrote:I am not going to predict what and when, I have no special knowledge. However, it is possible to make reports after events have happened, to point out the Prophecy's are indeed true.


That is true but the ability to link reports of events that have and are happening today should be enough to give us the confidence to be able to say what is going to happening between now and the end of this age when there is less that 0.5% of the time left since the creation of Adam for all that has been prophesised to occur by the start of the Millennium Age is still to run. In fact there is less that 15% of the time from when Adam was created until when the final judgement will occur.

Exit40 wrote:Just as you have pointed out the parallels to recent events there in Babylon. I too see ISIS there, this portion is ongoing today, and I believe will be to some extent right up to the end of this age. The name ISIS, like the name Taliban, is just a name for the brutal wild beasts of the earth imo.


This is where we begin to differ. I see the "wild beasts" of Daniel 7:1-12 as being inhabited by the people involved within the dominions of the respective four beasts who are fallen heavenly hosts who will soon be judged. Daniel saw IMHO the spiritual reality of what was being, and also what was going to be, manifested on the earth by people groups, kingdom, nations and empires when they chose to inhabit the dominions of the respective four beasts.

Now if the four sided/facetted beast of Daniel 7:19-27 is an amalgamation of the four bests of Daniel 7:1-12, then perhaps some of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 could also be an amalgamation of a number of fallen heavenly hosts acting in unison such that the third beast with the four heads has four fallen heavenly hosts acting in unison and the fourth terrible beast is one dominate fallen heavenly host having dominion over the whole earth with ten other fallen heavenly host having a lesser region territorial dominion influence acting within the wishes of the dominate fallen heavenly host. The little horn that is seen after a time before the judgement of the beasts in heaven is possibly the Beast described in Rev 13:11-18 with the two little horns on its head which speaks out great words against God. The description of three of the ten horns being replaced by the little horn of the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12 happens in heaven within the spiritual realm of heaven. It is true that the earthly realm may reflect the spiritual heavenly realm and what goes on there.

However this recent thought of mine is just that, a consideration or possibility of what we may be seeing and it needs further consideration and reflection to determine if the possibility could in fact be the reality that we are experiencing today.

Shalom
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Douggg on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:06 am

[quote="Jay Ross"][quote="Exit40"]

Here is a list of the end times villains. In this list, I give my interpretation in parenthesis. If you guys would take this like and modify it with you interpretations in parenthesis next to each villian - then it would be of tremendous help in others understanding your view.

If some of the villains, you are not sure about - just don't put anything by their name.

If we keep the raw list the same, kinda like a standard, it will be real easy for us to relate what the other person thinks in their list. I am trying to get this to be like a standard over at Christian Forum.net. Again this is the list with my interpretation. Yours of course is going to be different. A whole lot different for someone like Jay.

I'll start with Doug's interpretation - my view in parenthesis.

Old Testament


King of Babylon - Isaiah 14 (to Satan, and the slain man of sin, kicked out of the grave)
Prince of Tyre - Ezekiel 28 (to the slaying of the revealed man of sin)
King of Tyrus - Ezekiel 28 (to Satan, to be cast down to earth)
Gog - Ezekiel 38, 39, (Most likely the Muslim leader of the muslim coalition)
The ten kings - Daniel 2 (EU end times kings, leaders)
The ten kings - Daniel 7 (same EU end times kings, leaders)
little horn - Daniel 7, 8 (leader of EU, equivalent of the US president)
King of fierce countenance - Daniel 8 (leader of the EU, later becomes the beast of Revelation)
prince who shall come - Daniel 9 (leader of the EU, who becomes King of Israel, the Antichrist)
The willful King - Daniel 11 (the beast of Revelation 13, no longer the Antichrist)
King of the north - Daniel 11 (King of the global north countries, eastern hemisphere)
King of the south - Daniel 11 (King of the global south countries, eastern hemisphere)
The Assyrian - Micah 5 (likely to be Gog, leader of Gog/Magog)


New Testament

Antichrist shall come - 1John2:18 (future anointed illegitimate King of Israel, instead of Jesus)
Son of Perdition - 2Thessalonians2:4 (The Antichrist as he thinks he has achieved God-hood)
Revealed man of sin - 2Thessalonians2:4 (the person reveals his involvement into the occult, by claiming to be God)
Abaddon - Revelation 9 (the leading angel of the bottomless pit)
The beast who asendeth ouf of the bottomless pit - Revelation 11 (the beast spirit possesses the come back to life man of sin)
Great Red dragon - Revelation 12 (Satan)
The beast - Revelation 13, 14, 16, 19 (The final stage of the person originally the little horn leader of EU)
First beast - Revelation 13 (dual meaning, the end time Roman Empire, and possessed come back to life man of sin)
Second Beast - Revelation 13 (the false prophet, may claim to be Elijah)
False prophet - Revelation 16, Revelation 19 (the false prophet)
Kings of the east - Revelation 16 (the Asian countries lead by China)
Scarlet beast - Revelation 17 (Satan)
The great w hore - Revelation 17 (the RCC, the Vatican to be destroyed)
Beast in the bottomless pit - Revelation 17 (a former person, now a disembodied spirit, Nimrod?)
The ten kings - Revelation 17 (the ten EU leaders)
Gog Magog - Revelation 20 (the eastern hemisphere collection of nations surrounding Israel)
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:17 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Yes the Kingdom of God existed at the time of Christ's first advent, yet he still said to the people, "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand."

Yes, that's what He said, and it would then be important to understand exactly what He meant by "At Hand".
It would seem to me that He meant that it was Within Their Ability to Grasp it or Reach It at That Moment in Time.
That it was Indeed Present With (Parousia) Him, at That Time.......He was Establishing His Governing Presence at His First Coming (Parousia).

If that was the case then he would have turned right instead of left when he was on the colt riding into Jerusalem during the Sunday (Saturday our timeframe) twilight. He turned left and went towards the temple instead. Perhaps you have condensed your timeline too much because of your wrong layering of the facts.
shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:shorttribber wrote:According to Isaiah and several others, such as I've already quoted from Daniel 2, The Kingdom of God was First "Established" By Christ During His First Parousia, as Head and Governor Of It......Eternally.
Jay wrote: Are you really sure about the validity of this statement?

As certain as I can be, Yes.

This response seems to me that this is the conclusion/outcome that you would desire and is not necessarily based on a very firm foundation of Biblical truth.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps the difference in our views are associated with the time lines that we have independently constructed.

We can only attempt to Understand any Timeline that God has so ordered. We can all be wrong by greater or lesser degrees.........but my understanding of certain Timelines are less wrong than yours maybe :mrgreen:
I'm sorry, just had to be a little silly :mrgreen:

That is okay with me.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:I am not that sure you can squeeze up the described events as you have done for Isaiah 9:6-7 into such a short timeframe. It is my view that the timeframe is much longer than you have suggested.

I'll have another look at that text to see if it is conflict with any part of what I've suggested thus far then.
Jay Ross wrote:If the timeframe is not as short as you are suggesting then will you admit your error.

Yes, I most assuredly and gladly will....it's very important to me to always and in every case admit error if it is clear enough to me that I am in error.

That would be good.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Also you have stated that " it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?" which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44.

I stated the following....
shorttribber wrote:So, it is good to conclude that the Theocratic Governance and Kingdom of God, under That definition was Established By Christ and not as you have suggested by your following words, "Was not the kingdom of God present from the first "day" of creation?"

Why did you attach the following sentence to my quote, "which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44."?

I don't understand the point you were intending to make by structuring it that way....could you please explain?
Your timeline is at odds with what Daniel recorded in Daniel 2:44, it is that simple.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Daniel 9:44 states ( ST corrected to read Daniel 2:44): - "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; . . . NKJV" where it is plainly stated that it is God Himself who will establish the everlasting kingdom in our near future.

I'll check the NKJV then to see if it in fact says, "In Our Near Future"....but I do not believe it says something greatly different than the KJV that I generally use.
Jay Ross wrote:Perhaps, the error belongs elsewhere in this case.

Again, I'm unsure what you mean by the above quote.....I'm sorry, please explain


"And in the days of these kings .. . . {which is a near future event still to happen} . . . . the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people;

If, as you are claiming, that in our distant past, Christ established an everlasting kingdom during his first advent, then there must have been an error in Daniel 2:44 time line which points towards a near future establishment by God himself and not by Jesus as you have indicated.

So if both are true, then the error must be elsewhere in this case.

Edited to add: - I am sure that the error is not mine as Daniel 7:13-14 also tells us of the time when Jesus is given dominion over the peoples of the earth in the near future and is in agreement, time wise with Daniel 2:44.
Last edited by Jay Ross on Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:57 pm

Jay Ross wrote:If, as you are claiming, that in our distant past, Christ established an everlasting kingdom during his first advent, then there must have been an error in Daniel 2:44 time line which points towards a near future establishment by God himself and not by Jesus as you have indicated.
before I answer all the other points, I'd like to comment on this first.
Here, I think,is where we differ quite a great deal Jay.....I have no difficulty at all with receiving that Jesus IS "God Himself".
And it is very clear from other comments you've made that you do not receive Jesus Christ as "God Himself".
This thread should not deviate into Another Deity of Christ topic...as, according to certain board rules...we are All to be in Agreement in that regard.

"then there must have been an error in Daniel 2:44 time line which points towards a near future establishment by God himself "
No error in Daniel 2:44...I believe it to be just an error in your Understanding of the Timing, and as to God having been Manifest In The Flesh Jay.

Said with respect, and in Defense of the Gospel Once Delivered to the Saints.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:15 pm

Jay Ross wrote:If that was the case then he would have turned right instead of left when he was on the colt riding into Jerusalem during the Sunday (Saturday our timeframe) twilight. He turned left and went towards the temple instead. Perhaps you have condensed your timeline too much because of your wrong layering of the facts.

He just went the direction He was Lead to fulfill All that was Prophesied of Him....there is no conflict in the timing as I understand it.
According to your ideas they may conflict though.
Facts are facts, it has nothing to do with how the Layering of Prophecy is Understood or Not Understood Jay.
Jay Ross wrote:St said:As certain as I can be, Yes.
Jay said:This response seems to me that this is the conclusion/outcome that you would desire and is not necessarily based on a very firm foundation of Biblical truth.

Because I can admit that I can only be "As certain as I can be", you make this claim?
Because I can admit a possible imperfection in my understanding? :humm:
Jay Ross wrote:Why did you attach the following sentence to my quote, "which is not really that closely aligned with Daniel 2:44."?I don't understand the point you were intending to make by structuring it that way....could you please explain?

You should edit your post on this part Jay...I said this part
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:46 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:If, as you are claiming, that in our distant past, Christ established an everlasting kingdom during his first advent, then there must have been an error in Daniel 2:44 time line which points towards a near future establishment by God himself and not by Jesus as you have indicated.
before I answer all the other points, I'd like to comment on this first.
Here, I think,is where we differ quite a great deal Jay.....I have no difficulty at all with receiving that Jesus IS "God Himself".
And it is very clear from other comments you've made that you do not receive Jesus Christ as "God Himself".
This thread should not deviate into Another Deity of Christ topic...as, according to certain board rules...we are All to be in Agreement in that regard.

"then there must have been an error in Daniel 2:44 time line which points towards a near future establishment by God himself "
No error in Daniel 2:44...I believe it to be just an error in your Understanding of the Timing, and as to God having been Manifest In The Flesh Jay.

Said with respect, and in Defense of the Gospel Once Delivered to the Saints.


Shorttribber, You are attempting to put words into my mouth with your statements in your post quoted above.

While I agree that Christ fulfilled all the prophesied words related to His first advent, prophecies associated with his dominion over all the peoples of the earth, Daniel 7:13-14, still is a near future fulfilment. At the same time as Daniel 7:13-14 near future fulfilment, the Daniel 2:44 event will also occur. It is also my view that Christ's second coming to judge the people of the earth is a distant future event.

There is no error in my understanding of the timing of these events based on scriptures. Nor is there any difference between what has been given above in this post in my defence and what was delivered in the Gospel given to the Saints.

Shalom.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:59 pm

Response to the OP


The last kings of the north and south just before the first century in the scope of the prophetic visions were the Seleucid king Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35] .... and Ptolemy II of Egypt [Daniel 11:25]

So it will be at the time of the end, and the same relationship is developing as we speak

Here is the king of the north [Daniel 11:36-45: 12:7]

An it is this king [the little horn of Daniel's visions] who will defeat the leader of Egypt and add Egypt to his Middle Eastern kingdom Daniel 11:40: 42]

The Egyptian leader will oppose the king of the north and the Muslim Caliph will not tolerate his actions
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:32 pm

The latter part of Daniel 11 describes the King who exalts himself,the AC, who engages in battle the king of the south and the king of the north, and who is alarmed by reports from the east and the north causing him to go out in a rage to destroy many. As the AC fights against the kings of the south and north the AC is not one of these kings. As the AC is enraged by reports from the east and north and goes on the attack, he would not appear to be the king of the east.

The only direction not mentioned is the west, suggesting that the AC is the king of the west or is allied with the king of the west. The AC conquers Egypt, Lybia and Sudan, muslim nations, and other muslim nations escape him, Edom, Moab and Ammon (Jordan). Being the king of the west and fighting against muslim nations would indicate that the AC is not a muslim leading a Muslim Caliphate. But Gog could be that muslim leader.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:11 pm

The prophets are all focused primarily upon the Middle East proper for the time of the end

The king of the north [Syria/Iraq] will emerge soon .... the coming Muslim caliph .... the little horn of Daniel's visions

This "Assyrian" [Micah 5:5-6] is Satan's [gog's] beast of Revelation 9:11 in the human little horn of Daniel's visions

This one will confederate his kingdom in the Middle East .... and any state leaders who oppose him will be eliminated

Egyptian leader [king of the south] will be the first [Daniel 11:40] .... to other Middle Eastern leaders will be plucked up as well ..... and the others will join him

This king will move from his northern position in the Middle East toward the east, to the south, and toward Israel [ISIL is reflecting this same behavior as we speak]

He and his 10 other kings will destroy western dominance in one day [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

And he will also sweep away many of his opposition from the far east and far north [Daniel 11:44]
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:40 pm

While prophetic scripture does focus on events in the ME, it also describes events that involve the entire world. The 'little horn' of Dan 7 who speaks boastfully is consistent with the beast out of the sea of Rev 13 that speaks 'proud words and blasphemes..', commonly referred to as the AC. The little horn, the beast, the AC, has authority over not only the ME but 'every tribe, people, language and nation', he has authority over the entire world not just some limited muslim caliphate.

The latter part of Dan 11, after vs 36, refers to the king who exalts himself and says unheard of things against the God of gods, he speaks boastfully, consistent with the AC, the little horn. In the latter part of Dan 11 the AC engages in battle the kings of the north and the south, so the AC is not the king of the North, by deduction.

The earlier part of Dan 11, starting at vs 21 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, and he does appear to be the king of the North at that time of fulfillment. While there may be some overlap in Dan 11's description of AE and then the AC in vs 31-35, the entire description of AE will not be fulfilled by the AC as the scripture would contradict itself, AE is the king of the north while the AC is not.

In Dan 11: 21-45 2 different individuals are being discussed, and while some of the deeds of each individual may appear similar, the AC will not repeat all that AE did, AE was a king of the north while the AC will not be the king of the north.

But Gog, the Assyrian, who leads the northern army, may well be considered a king of the north at the time of the fulfillment of Ezek 38-39. (Gog and the AC are 2 different individuals, Gog is killed at Gog-Magog and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive at armageddon and cast into the Lake of Fire)
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:47 pm

Why is it that people have a pertinacious to muddy the waters so to speak by believing that Rev 19 & 20 are linear in time when in reality both chapters cover the same period of time, the Millennium Age?

Since, IMHO, both Revelation 19 and 20 span the Millennium Age, then logically it follows that Rev 9, 13, 17 and 19 also occur during the little while period of the Millennium Age as described in Revelation 20:3, and the period of Satan's activity described in Revelation 20:7-15.

Now between Daniel 7:1-12 and Daniel 7:19-27, there is a 1,000 year period of relative peace on the earth, which co insides with the first 1,000 years of the Son of man's dominion over all of the peoples of the earth, from the activities of the four Beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 as well as the other fallen heavenly hosts who are judged along with the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 as told to us in Isaiah 24:21-23 at the time of Armageddon when all of the peoples of the earth rebel against God.

As such Daniel 7:19-27, which includes embedded in it, the prophecies in Revelation 9, 13, 17 and 19, occurs during the time period of the "little while" period of Revelation 20:3, 7-15 and the "set period of time" after the season in Daniel 7:12.

But it seems that this is not associated with the present time when the King of the North can be discerned as a king in the distant north at the edge of the sea of humanity.

We do know that Satan in the past and even during this present time is coming against those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. (Revelations 12:17-18)

Then the people of the earth will rebel against God to go up against Jerusalem at the fullness of the time of the gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God in Jerusalem at which time all of Israel will be saved.

Armageddon will be on us within the next 30 or so years.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:07 am

"While prophetic scripture does focus on events in the ME, it also describes events that involve the entire world. The 'little horn' of Dan 7 who speaks boastfully is consistent with the beast out of the sea of Rev 13 that speaks 'proud words and blasphemes..', commonly referred to as the AC. The little horn, the beast, the AC, has authority over not only the ME but 'every tribe, people, language and nation', he has authority over the entire world not just some limited muslim caliphate."

Sorry, 1whowaits I don't agree with most all of your interpretation

I will just say again that the focus of the Lord's coming hour [time] of trial and judgment is close, and the focus of the Lord and His Bible prophets is the Middle East proper including Israel and the surrounding populations of nation's virulent enemies who are primarily Muslims today

Yes, the entire planet of a lost world will be subjected to His unprecedented judgment, but the Middle East will be the epicenter

This stage is setting up as we speak, and if you have extensive knowledge of the prophetic scriptures and are cognizant of related historical and current events it is not difficult to connect the dots and see the parallels
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:18 am

I would be more inclined to agree in part with Jay Ross above, but would need further commentary

Foe example, where do you place the Lord's coming millennial kingdom within exegetical context?
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:17 pm

Straightshot wrote:I would be more inclined to agree in part with Jay Ross above, but would need further commentary

For example, where do you place the Lord's coming millennial kingdom within exegetical context?


The issue that we have is in the various translations of Matthew 24:3: -
Matthew 24:3: - Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying,"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
NKJV
It is my view that the disciples actually asked the following question: -
"Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the signs of Your comings, and of the ends of the ages?"
Now if we look at what the disciples asked in this way, then the rest of Matthew 24-25 is telling us about multiply fleeting comings to the earth of Christ with the final coming occurring when he comes on the clouds with all the hosts of heaven to judge the nations and to give the righteous saints their inheritance.

If we consider the three parables in Matthew 25, and consider that they are applicable to the Millennium Age, then: -

1. - the parable of the Ten Virgins at the start of the chapter is about the Redemption of all of Israel and Christ's fleeting coming/visitation for His Bride at the beginning of the Millennium Age where he is seeing for a very short period of time as he enters the wedding hall for the feast.

2. - the parable of the Talents is about the oppression of the people by the "Good servants" of Satan who is forcible taken away for a period of time, namely for 1,000 years, before he returns for the little while period at the end of the Millennium Age. And,

3. - The parable of the Judgement of the Nations/of the Sheep and the Goats at the end of the chapter is about the final scene of the Millennium age when Christ comes on the clouds with all of the hosts of heaven to judge the world, to give their inheritance to the righteous sheep and to dispatch the unrighteous goats into the Lake of fire.

Now Straightshot, you have asked of me the following Question: -

"Where do you place the Lord's coming millennial kingdom within exegetical context?"

Now Daniel tells us twice when the Millennial Kingdom will be established in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7.

In Daniel 2 we are told the following:

Daniel 2:44-45: - And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a {Messianic} kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold — the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure."
NKJV


In the exegetical context that you have requested, the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom comes after the appearance on the scene of the prophecy of the fifth segment of the statue prophecy, i.e. the kingdom/empire consisting of ten toes with the dual property of both Iron and Clay. It is my view/understanding that the "Empire" of the Coalition of the Willing is the fifth segment of the Statue and as such, during the time of the kings of the nations which lent troops to this coalition that the Messianic/Millennium Kingdom will be established.

It should be noted in the narrative of this prophecy that no mention is made of a "king" that will also appear on the surface of the earth for the duration of this Millennium/Messianic Kingdom.

In Daniel 7 we are told the following: -

Daniel 7:13-14

"I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

NKJV


In the exegetical context that you have requested, the establishment of the everlasting Kingdom comes after the appearance on the scene of the prophecy the God of heaven and the 24 elders to Judge the four beasts of this prophecy found in Daniel 7:1-8. After the dominions of the four beasts is removed from them and they are set aside to await their time of final judgement, there comes on the scene of the prophecy a "Son of Man," i.e. Christ, who is given dominion over all of the peoples of the earth. This dominion over the peoples of the earth is an everlasting kingdom which shall not be destroyed.

In this scene of the establishment of the Everlasting Kingdom there is no indication that the "Son of man" is required to exercise his dominion from the face of the earth, just as there is no indication that the four beastly kings of Daniel 7:1-8 actually exercised their respective dominions from the face of the earth as well.

After this giving of the dominion of the everlasting kingdom to the Son of Man, i.e. Christ, we are informed of the appearance of a more terrible "four sided" beast that appears on the earth just before its dominion is removed from it and it is judged to be consumed and destroyed forever after which the Saints are given the greatness of all of the kingdoms under the heavens which we have been told in the scriptures occurs at the ever end of the Millennium Age in Revelation 20:11-15 when the righteous receive their inheritance as also told in the third parable of Matthew 25.

Now the four beast of Daniel 7:1-12, are judged in heaven such that it is safe to assume that they are actually fallen heavenly hosts/angels and in Isaiah 24:21-23 we are told the following prophecy concerning the heavenly judgement of heavenly hosts: -

Isaiah 24:21-23

It shall come to pass in that day
That the Lord will punish on high the host of {fallen} exalted ones,
And on the earth the kings of the earth.

They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.
NKJV


In this passage we are told that the judgement of the fallen heavenly hosts/exalted ones occurs at the same time that the rebellion of the kings on the earth occurs. This is the first judgement of the kings of the earth for their rebelling against God and this is also foretold in Revelation 16:12-16.

Revelation 16:12-16: - Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

And they gathered them {the kings of the earth} together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
NKJV


Also occurring at this time is the fullness of the time of the Gentiles trampling the sanctuary of God for 2,300 years which began around 250 BC when one of the kings of the Grecian empires entered Jerusalem after the death of Alexandra the Great. Paul tells us that the fullness of the Gentiles occur that all of Israel will be saved and redeemed and when Israel is redeemed God will chose to renew His priestly covenant with them in the order of Melchizedek which they had rebelled against while Moses was, for the first time, up on the mountain with God for 30 days. When this occurs, Christ will come for his bride.

From Matthew 24:32 we know that in another 30 or so years that the end of this present age will occur and that the Millennium Age will begin.

This is when the Millennium / Messianic Kingdom is first established which shall never be destroyed.

So if we are looking for the king of the northern kingdom/nation then we should be looking for a king that is operating under the influence today of the third beast which has the characteristic of operating within the dominion of power.

Looking for that king of the north within the nations under the influence of the fourth beast is futile in as much as the dominion of the fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7:1-12 is to speak out great pompous words against the Lord God almighty. The Islamic radical extremists are doing that very thing today and nothing else.

Shalom

Jay Ross
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Fri Jun 12, 2015 6:34 am

Thanks for the response .... you have obviously done much study

Here is my input in a nut shell:

Exegetical: 69 weeks of 483 prophetic years terminated at the Lord's cutting off .... the 70th week out ahead of us [the time of Jacob's trouble, same as the coming tribulation effecting the whole world]

This period will include 2550 days of judgment [1260+1260+30] by the Lord

Then He will gather the surviving mortals of the days of the tribulation and separate them, believing from unbelieving

Those found believing will enter and populate His 1000 year millennial kingdom upon the earth, those found in unbelief will be rejected

Satan will be sent to the abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations of the millennial kingdom

Then he will be released to cause another human rebellion against the Lord of which will be abruptly put down

Then the Lord will judge all of the unbelieving spirits of the human dead from the beginning of human creation and destroy them in His lake of fire

.... and then He will bring His eternal kingdom to include a new [reconditioned] heavens and earth .... this kingdom will last forever


The kingdom of Satan's beast in the human little horn centered in the region of the ancient Assyrian kingdom at Nineveh between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers:

The 4th kingdom of Daniel's visions and the 6th expanded into the 7th in Revelation's unfolding are the same

Satan's beast [Abaddon/Apollyon] in the human little horn, a king of the northern kingdom in the Middle East, will rule over both

The same human little horn will appear, confederate the Middle Eastern Muslims, and invade and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount at the Middle of the 70th week decreed, and will rule for 1260 days [42 months]

He will include the Muslim populations Egypt [kingdom of the south] and the other African Muslims

The formation of the little horn's kingdom will at first begin in northwestern Mesopotamia [Syria/Iraq/Levant] and he will then expand his holdings to include the entire Middle East proper

His occupation of Israel and intent to destroy the Lord's nation will cause the Lord to intervene and destroy Abbadon in the human little horn and his human followers at the battle of Armageddon and Satan will be sent to the abyss
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:42 pm

Straightshot wrote:Thanks for the response .... you have obviously done much study

Here is my input in a nut shell:

Exegetical: 69 weeks of 483 prophetic years terminated at the Lord's cutting off .... the 70th week out ahead of us [the time of Jacob's trouble, same as the coming tribulation effecting the whole world]

This period will include 2550 days of judgment [1260+1260+30] by the Lord

Then He will gather the surviving mortals of the days of the tribulation and separate them, believing from unbelieving

Those found believing will enter and populate His 1000 year millennial kingdom upon the earth, those found in unbelief will be rejected


This is where we begin to part company, there is no separation of the peoples of the earth at this time into those who believe and those that don't to enter into the Millennium Age. The parables of the Pound and the Talents tells us that Satan will have his faithful servants hard at work on the face of the earth while he is in the abyss to continue his oppression of the peoples of the earth during his 1,000 years of imprisonment before he is allowed back during the little while period.

But you possibly have a different understand on these parables and will demand your five or ten cities to rule over because of your perceived righteousness in the kingdom of God.

Straightshot wrote:Satan will be sent to the abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations of the millennial kingdom

Then he will be released to cause another human rebellion against the Lord of which will be abruptly put down

Then the Lord will judge all of the unbelieving spirits of the human dead from the beginning of human creation and destroy them in His lake of fire

.... and then He will bring His eternal kingdom to include a new [reconditioned] heavens and earth .... this kingdom will last forever


Yes I can agree with this portion of your post.

Straightshot wrote:The kingdom of Satan's beast in the human little horn centered in the region of the ancient Assyrian kingdom at Nineveh between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers:

The 4th kingdom of Daniel's visions and the 6th expanded into the 7th in Revelation's unfolding are the same

Satan's beast [Abaddon/Apollyon] in the human little horn, a king of the northern kingdom in the Middle East, will rule over both

The same human little horn will appear, confederate the Middle Eastern Muslims, and invade and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount at the Middle of the 70th week decreed, and will rule for 1260 days [42 months]

He will include the Muslim populations Egypt [kingdom of the south] and the other African Muslims

The formation of the little horn's kingdom will at first begin in northwestern Mesopotamia [Syria/Iraq/Levant] and he will then expand his holdings to include the entire Middle East proper

His occupation of Israel and intent to destroy the Lord's nation will cause the Lord to intervene and destroy Abbadon in the human little horn and his human followers at the battle of Armageddon and Satan will be sent to the abyss


Since this is very much in our distant future, I am not sure that I can discern the people groups, kingdoms, nations or empires that will be around during the little while period of the Millennium Age. Yes, we know that, the characteristics of the beasts of the little while period at the end of the Millennium Age are identical to the characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 that we are seeing displayed during this present time.

It is with great difficulty that we can perceive what will unfold, over 1,000 years from now, and what people groups, kingdoms, nations and empires will align themselves with the events and the beasts that appear during the little while period of the Millennium Age.

It is safer for us to watch and pray about these things than it is to jump to any conclusions as to what will happen. If we look at the Parable of the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats, then in my opinion it is more profitable for us to focus on the Lords requirements for being his sheep in his fold.

Perhaps Isaiah 58 indicates to us what we should be doing now and what we should continue doing during the Millennium Age.

Shalom

Jay Ross
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:08 am

"This is where we begin to part company, there is no separation of the peoples of the earth at this time into those who believe and those that don't to enter into the Millennium Age"

But the there will be: immediately after the days of the Lord's unprecedented tribulation

These gatherings are not resurrections of anyone, but separations of the mortal survivors of the tribulation

Those found believing will enter and populate [reproduce in] the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... as mortals

First of Israel
[Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]

Then of the Gentiles of the nations
[Matthew 25:31-46]

And I agree that the primary mission of one who is called to witness with sound doctrine and ability to present the gospel of Jesus Christ

I teach the Lord's prophetic word which I consider to be foundational to the cause [2 Peter 1:16-21]

I have found that people today need a degree of evidence and sensibility in the witness process .... otherwise they will not even bother to listen

I am curious .... are you one of the nation of Israel? ..... I see your salutation

If so, would you tell me about your experience with Christianity?
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:51 pm

My dear Straightshot,

Your expressed understanding of the scriptures is enlightening. Sadly, it does not reflect your expressed standard of 2 Peter 1:16-21 in that what you have put on display is your own "myth" of what you expect is to prophetically happen between now and the final scene in the final act.

As regards to my possible Jewish status, your assumption that, because I use a particular salutation in closing off my posts, on occasions, on this site, is just that, jumping to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. Otherwise you would not have made the following observation nor asked the question that you did: -
Straightshot wrote:I am curious .... are you one of the nation of Israel? ..... I see your salutation

If so, would you tell me about your experience with Christianity?


Now my experience with Christianity, is that I have been pigeon holed, maligned, considered an oddity, been expelled for daring to be different, considered a pervert because I looked and acted differently to the considered tradition or norm of the "cult" with the label of "Christianity." Been "ignored" because I was considered as irrelevant with respect to the "traditions" of the "religious cultic practices," (which in of itself is a very Jewish characteristic as portrayed within scripture.) I have been shunned and ridiculed because of what other people consider are the tenets of the Gospel of Christ when I have questioned the very foundations of their displayed belief systems over the course of each week.

Now, do I have to be Jewish to have this "experience with Christianity?" Certainly not.

Sadly the courts of power pays little regard to the warnings and utterances of a "fool" within their midst and they continue along their respective paths towards the obscurity that will be their lot in the end when they will not be found in the midst of the honoured.

You claim that you have great wisdom in the things concerning the end times yet your words and expressed ideas in this area let you down greatly.

Now, I do dabble, with some reluctance, in this area within a very restricted circle of friends with little success.

However, I find that I am happiest when I am away from the "ether"net and demonstrating the heart of God towards others who have great personal needs in all areas of their respective lives. I do this, as much as possible, in secret, such that the glory of God can be seen within their midst, and such that I can become the least of the least within their company and am able to join in their worship in just how great our God is in His provisions.

Perhaps our focus is wrong concerning what is needed for the Kingdom of God to be brought forth on the earth.

Perhaps we need to "close our eyes for a time" and simply "Believe in Him Whom He has sent." The hard part, is to demonstrate this belief in practical ways that brings Glory unto God and His Kingdom.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:18 pm

Jay Ross wrote:My dear Straightshot,

Your expressed understanding of the scriptures is enlightening. Sadly, it does not reflect your expressed standard of 2 Peter 1:16-21 in that what you have put on display is your own "myth" of what you expect is to prophetically happen between now and the final scene in the final act.

As regards to my possible Jewish status, your assumption that, because I use a particular salutation in closing off my posts, on occasions, on this site, is just that, jumping to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. Otherwise you would not have made the following observation nor asked the question that you did: -
Straightshot wrote:I am curious .... are you one of the nation of Israel? ..... I see your salutation

If so, would you tell me about your experience with Christianity?


Now my experience with Christianity, is that I have been pigeon holed, maligned, considered an oddity, been expelled for daring to be different, considered a pervert because I looked and acted differently to the considered tradition or norm of the "cult" with the label of "Christianity." Been "ignored" because I was considered as irrelevant with respect to the "traditions" of the "religious cultic practices," (which in of itself is a very Jewish characteristic as portrayed within scripture.) I have been shunned and ridiculed because of what other people consider are the tenets of the Gospel of Christ when I have questioned the very foundations of their displayed belief systems over the course of each week.

Now, do I have to be Jewish to have this "experience with Christianity?" Certainly not.


:peace:

Jay, he just asked a simple question.....
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Mon Jun 15, 2015 12:12 pm

"Now, do I have to be Jewish to have this "experience with Christianity?" Certainly not."


I was just curious and thought that you might be willing to share your particular experience

No need to answer if you prefer not
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:53 pm

Straightshot wrote:"Now, do I have to be Jewish to have this "experience with Christianity?" Certainly not."


I was just curious and thought that you might be willing to share your particular experience

No need to answer if you prefer not


But I did. I did share my particular experiences with "Christianity" and you are throwing it back in my face without acknowledging that I have willingly shared my particular experiences. A simple response on your part of, "Thank you. I am sorry that your experience with other Christians has not reflected well on them." would have been more appropriate on your part.

Abiding in His Word wrote:<snip>

:peace:

Jay, he just asked a simple question.....


Yes I know, but if I had been of Jewish extraction and faith, previous experience would have told me that the question was loaded and that my relationship with God was being questioned and that I would be subjected to proselytism and an expectation of requiring "conversion," on the part of the person asking the question, to their "version" of Christianity and Dogma.

Sadly the experiences I listed in my previous post, I have personally gone through and been subjected too within the body of Christ.

On another "Christian" forum, a Hebrew scholar's posts who gave a Jewish perspective on scripture and prophecy was not well received and respected for who He was in his relationship with the God that he worshiped. He was eventually hounded from the web site and his heart became as hard as the hearts that he was interacting with on that site.

I on the other hand used a much softer approach with him and encouraged him in his relationship with the God of Abraham that He worshiped, knowing that when the fullness of the Time of The Gentile had run its decreed course that he along with all of Israel will be saved/redeemed. I also know from the scriptures that Israel's present visitation of their iniquities against God, on them, is drawing to a close soon as well and that when the decreed two ages of their suffered tribulation ends that God will once again hear their cries of anguish and hear them.

When that happens, God will renew with the nation of Israel the covenant that he made with the nation of Israel to be His "priests" on the face of the earth before they rebelled while Moses was up on the mountain with God for 30 days.

That, as far as I am aware, is the understanding that the Scholars within Israel have, and when they See a King afar off judging the rebellion on the earth at Armageddon, with this rebellion being lead by the King of the "distant North," they will seek and accept the afar off King's terms of peace because they will know within their hearts that they cannot overcome this King because of who He is and His special relationship with God.

Be that as it may be, we will know soon enough as God's foretold plan for Israel and the world, unfolds before us, in God's time, as we watch in anticipation of what is to come.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Mon Jun 15, 2015 2:25 pm

OK Jay, now you have inadvertently answered my question

I know where you are coming from by your discussion above

You also said this to me:

"Your expressed understanding of the scriptures is enlightening. Sadly, it does not reflect your expressed standard of 2 Peter 1:16-21 in that what you have put on display is your own "myth" of what you expect is to prophetically happen between now and the final scene in the final act.hanks"

This thread is about the king of the north and king of the south, little horn .... please give me your rendering of the same
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:21 pm

Straightshot wrote:OK Jay, now you have inadvertently answered my question

I know where you are coming from by your discussion above


Actually I was very deliberate in answering your question in my two posts above concerning my heritage.

Straightshot wrote:You also said this to me:

"Your expressed understanding of the scriptures is enlightening. Sadly, it does not reflect your expressed standard of 2 Peter 1:16-21 in that what you have put on display is your own "myth" of what you expect is to prophetically happen between now and the final scene in the final act."


The basis of my statement was because of the scriptural reference you had used to justify your reasons: -
2 Peter 1:16-21: –– 16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For when he received honour and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased," 18 we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. ESV


Now since you are wary of an argumentational form of discussion, I just laid out the facts as I saw them. Nothing more. I have nothing to prove at all.


Straightshot wrote:This thread is about the king of the north and king of the south, little horn .... please give me your rendering of the same


But it seems to me that you are into eristical dialogue.

As for your request, I have to the best of my ability, attempted to focus my posts on addressing the substance matter for this thread.

Also, I have previously in this thread provided my understanding on the king of the north and the little horn and the timeline that is applicable to them both.

Shalom

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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby Straightshot on Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:53 pm

OK .... then we have nothing to discuss that would serve any good purpose

Thank you

If this forum picks up activity I am sure that you can find someone else to entertain you
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby morpheus on Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:17 am

I started this thread and want to get it back on target. As some of you all have mentioned, the Bible indicates in Daniel 11 there will be a little horn that fights against the king of the north and king of the south. I firmly believe this little horn is talking about the antichrist and he is separate from the king of the north. Later reports out of the east (the kings of the east as mentioned in Revelation) also come against him. Also more reports out of the north (more kings of the north) trouble him.

I propose the future king of Palestine will be this little horn and he will fight against the Shias (north) and the Sunnis (south) and restore the caliphate. He will at this point then become the king of Assyria and of Tyre and Damascus. He will also become king of Babylon and eventually he will take over Asia Minor (Turkey/Greece) and possibly even Europe eventually. So he goes from being a little horn to taking over the middle east, then Europe, then faces off against the superpower of China. I am guessing the US will be economically broke or at least no longer relevant by then. Russia (the second north mentioned in Daniel 11) will also bring whatever they have left against him.

They will literally be starting WW3 when Satan shows up and changes the game. I bet the angels and Satan coming down to earth will be visible and they will literally stop WW3 from happening. They will be greeted as the saviors of mankind and they will usher in an evolved superhuman DNA modification program, bringing eternal life with their hybrid DNA, the infamous mark of the beast. The antichrist will be the first "beast", and does not die when somebody tries to assassinate him. He will declare himself god, since he is now technically immortal. True Christians will not take the mark and the antichrist hunts all the believers down who refuse to follow in his steps.

When God himself shows up to rescue the survivors at the rapture, the world realized they are in deep trouble. Having taken the mark, they have no second chance. They unite behind the antichrist to fight against Jesus. They all give their power to this antichrist. At that time the antichrist really does rule the world. So the antichrist goes through various stages and therefore the Scriptures also call him different things at different stages. This is one reason why things are so hard to understand. At one point he fights against the king of the north, but when he wins, he becomes the new king of the north.

We can argue all day long and try and sort it all out, but we have to realize time is involved here and things will change. The Bible tells us that and gives us lots of clues. Thus various Scriptures that seem to contradict each other about titles and who' s who in the end times 's in fact are technically correct. We cannot debate these things as though they are static. They will change and our theories have to take that into effect.

This is my two cents.
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Re: King of the North, King of the South, Little Horn

Postby kirthril on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:51 pm

I started this thread and want to get it back on target. As some of you all have mentioned, the Bible indicates in Daniel 11 there will be a little horn that fights against the king of the north and king of the south. I firmly believe this little horn is talking about the antichrist and he is separate from the king of the north. Later reports out of the east (the kings of the east as mentioned in Revelation) also come against him. Also more reports out of the north (more kings of the north) trouble him.

I want to point something out, and this has been mentioned in other threads. Read Daniel's prophecy of the Ram vs Goat. Daniel 8 I believe. To make a long story short the goat is the greek kingdom that is split into 4 pieces. Out of one the "little horn" sweeps through the middle east only to be defeated in the end by the most high.

Now read Daniel 11 and use the process of elimination to find out who/where the little horn comes from.

1. He can't come from too far north because there is a major military power north of him which causes alarm.
2. He can't come from the east because he "waxes" south and eastward in conquest meaning he is in a north western position to the rest of the middle east.
3. He cannot come from the south, because well... he defeats the king of the south... and well... you can conquer south and east if you are in the south...
4. He cannot come from the west because the ships of kittem or (chittem) come against him (that being Italy/Greece)

so if not too far north, south, east or west then where? Simply put, north of Israel. A central position to all 4 geographical opponents. He has enemies to his north, south, east, and west and since he must conquer from a northwestward starting point, that puts him firmly in the nation of Turkey. Which is north of Israel, thus king of the north.

The little horn IS the king of the north because all of chapter 11 is talking about the generational wars between the Seleucid kingdom and the Ptolemaic kingdom. Guess where Asia minor is? Part of the Seleucid kingdom. Guess who Asia minors major arch rival in the region is? Egypt.

it is from the Seleucid kingdom that the AC emerges from, one of the 4 quadrants of Greece. The "northern" quadrant. Thus, king of the north. Also remember that the final empire is a revival of one of the former 7 empires. Well, guess which empire had its base of power in the Seleucid kingdom? The ottomans.
..........
In Daniel 11:29-32 look closely at who commits the abomination of desolation and tramples the temple with his forces. It is the king of the north, not a separate king/horn. He corrupts those who turn from God. This is what the little horn is prophesized to do.

In 36, why does this king do as he pleases? Why does he speak against the most high? Answer in 29-32 because he just desecrated Gods temple and established himself above all. Who would do such a thing? The king of the north during his war against the southern king. So the little horn and king of the north are one n the same.

I think it was a mistake to put a break between vs 35 and 36 and insert a titled section as this has caused most to believe 36+ is talking about a completely different person than in 35 and under. But as I have pointed out in other threads once you get to verse 21 there is no more mention of successors or "after him shall come". 21-45 is all about one man in a dual fulfillment prophecy. Why the break? 35 and under the focus of the king of the north is creating his empire and defeating his arch rival. 36 on up his focus is on destroying the holy people. Same man, 2 focuses.

Unless you want to transfer the king of the north title up to Russia (which can make sense) as it fights against the AC I see the KoTN as asia minor as history pertains it and thus the little horn.
"It is not who I am...But what I do that defines me" -Batman, Batman Begins
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