Evidently

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Re: Evidently

Postby watching on Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:40 am

Hi Shorttribber,
I've only just glanced over this thread. I need to read over it more thoroughly. But I just wanted to say that they way I know if something is true or not is that the Truth can be verified from every angle.
It's sort of like an algebra problem. Once you solve the problem and you see that the values for every letter work. There's no need to keep trying to solve the problem.
The same is true with scripture. Once you figure out the answer to the problem, it should work from every angle.
If it doesn't, then you haven't found the right solution.
If I see any kind of discrepancy with my theory, I research it until I can reconcile every scripture. Once every scripture has been reconciled, then I know that it's true, because it can not be refuted.
Because the Truth can never be refuted. That's why it's the Truth.
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:45 am

i'll comment later Watching, thanx for joining in...me and the kids gone-a-fish'n, spring break ya know
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Thu Oct 06, 2016 8:31 pm

{I've bumped this thread in an effort to again encourage Fair and Real Consideration of Differing opinions of Bible prophecy held by others that are contrary to our own}


It might be a good idea to review some of the comments and proceed.
This should help us as we also discuss matters in the Ten Horns thread.

:praying: :read: :typing: :praying:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:40 pm

I like to have an open mind. I don't think I really have anything figured out, I just keep holding up the scripture verses i know, to see if I can get them to fit together. Sometimes you gotta be willing adjust your point of view, in order to see things you haven't noticed before. I can argue both sides of the argument when it comes to the timing of rapture and religion of the Antichrist. Figuring out the end times puzzle is not simple.
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:30 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:I like to have an open mind. I don't think I really have anything figured out, I just keep holding up the scripture verses i know, to see if I can get them to fit together. Sometimes you gotta be willing adjust your point of view, in order to see things you haven't noticed before. I can argue both sides of the argument when it comes to the timing of rapture and religion of the Antichrist. Figuring out the end times puzzle is not simple.

That's a good place to be in when it comes to personal bias.
It's much easier to Weigh Evidence with that kind of willingness to "see things you haven't noticed before".

Thanx for the post EC, I'm looking forward to more communication with you and others on this subject.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Exit40 on Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:21 am

Hi ST. I think it is a good idea to be open minded about Prophecy, who knows for sure all the workings of fulfillment. Keeping in mind we are all friends, and we can disagree and still be friends, and and more importantly fellow Christians who love each other as different parts of the Body of Christ. The purpose of debate is to refine belief into the most probable outcome, but still we can't be sure. None of us. Keeping our options open for outcome is good, getting all the little details lined up as we believe Scripture reveals, the evidence we are unsure of today, so when it fulfills we can have all our Scriptural research lined up to give us the ability to speak boldly saying ....

SEE, THUS SAYETH THE LORD !

written so long ago for us today, so we can and will believe. And God gets the Glory for His purposes. And we get to be Faithful Servants, loving each other just as Christ says we are to do, witnessing to God's Glory and His Word, Jesus the Christ.

Times are getting tough no doubt, we are being worn down I think is a good description. Thanks for bringing this thread back to the page, so we can all get a look at ourselves and pray to our Lord we remain in the Faith as we continue to attempt to understand His Word, and share what we believe with each other. In Love and Peace.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:06 pm

Hello

Evidence is what we believe to be true, such that, in a jury trail the defendant is found innocent or guilty on what their 12 peers believe is truth based on the "evidence" presented to them during the trial.

The12 peers form their own opinion and a debate behind closed doors occurs between the guilty and the innocent adherents within that room in the hope that the people who hold to an innocent view will come to their consensus and agree to a guilty view.

If the evidence does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt, then the defendant should be found to be not guilty.

Sadly, jails today have innocent people contained within their cells because of "false" evidence presented as "truth." Because of the clamour against them, they have difficulty in arguing their case for a miss trail.

The "loudest cries" win the day and truth is found to be missing. Does that sound familiar, even on this forum.

What happens when we consider the Biblical Phrase, "From/to the ends of the earth?"

The interpretation could be understood to have either a spatial/geometrical or a chronological understanding. Either can be justified but which one is right.

The more I consider this expression, the more I am tending to consider that the chronological understanding seems to best fit the unfolding End Times story.

Be that as it may be, many would argue against that understanding based on the traditional teaching/understanding such that many believe when the Gospel has been preached in every nook and cranny around the world, both near and far from where we live, then it will be the time for Christ's second advent. Many people today believe that the Gospel has been taken to every corner of the earth and that the end of the Age will soon be upon us.

Which understanding of the "ends of the earth" is true, based on actual Biblical evidence? I am not sure that I can decide, only express my opinion as to which view should be considered more that the other.

Sadly, our "tradition, both past and present," has imprisoned God's truth and put it into a dungeon where it will never see the light of day.

How can/dare we argue with that.

Shalom.
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:46 pm

Jay Ross wrote:Evidence is what we believe to be true

Hi Jay,
Evidence is evidence whether we believe it or not. Evidences are Pieces, large or small, of little or mightier weight, of Reality.

A persons Acceptance or Belief in varied Real Evidence does not effect in the least WHAT Evidence Actually IS.

A person can believe all their lifetime contrary to real evidence, but Evidence itself does not change...it Is what it is.

Jay Ross wrote:Sadly, our "tradition, both past and present," has imprisoned God's truth and put it into a dungeon where it will never see the light of day


God's Truth is not Bound, (2 Tim. 2:9) nor is He (The Word of God/Christ/Truth) Confined, but He is scarcely sought with open hearts and minds. Minds and Hearts have always been and are still Held Captive by Unwillingness to Accept What He offers us, Freedom from Our Errors.

Many errors can be always corrected when we become Willing to Acknowledge Real and True Evidence.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Oct 09, 2016 11:46 pm

ST

It seems that you have not "read" my post above.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Evidence is what we believe to be true

Hi Jay,
Evidence is evidence whether we believe it or not. Evidences are Pieces, large or small, of little or mightier weight, of Reality.

A persons Acceptance or Belief in varied Real Evidence does not effect in the least WHAT Evidence Actually IS.

A person can believe all their lifetime contrary to real evidence, but Evidence itself does not change...it Is what it is.


Perhaps, the position you are arguing is that God's truth, is always true, but the sad thing is that many people around the world believe that their understanding of God's truth is what is true.

It nearly seems, that if I have interpreted your post above correctly, that this is what you are suggesting.

shorttribber wrote:
Jay Ross wrote:Sadly, our "tradition, both past and present," has imprisoned God's truth and put it into a dungeon where it will never see the light of day


God's Truth is not Bound, (2 Tim. 2:9) nor is He (The Word of God/Christ/Truth) Confined, but He is scarcely sought with open hearts and minds. Minds and Hearts have always been and are still Held Captive by Unwillingness to Accept What He offers us, Freedom from Our Errors.

Many errors can be always corrected when we become Willing to Acknowledge Real and True Evidence.


ST, I have not said that God's truth has been bound, What I have stated is that Traditions have bound God's truth, which is a very different thing, as these traditions attempted to hid God's Truth, in darkness, i.e. like a dungeon so that it, i.e. God's truth, does not see the light of day.

I also agree with your words above, "but He is scarcely sought with open hearts and minds." But we should be careful. So often we do not want to be free from our own errors of understanding but we do want to have an exit door open to escape to another "theory/understanding" if we are found short with our respective tightly held views, at the present moment, on God's truth.

What we all should be fearful of is "He" who can cause us to die a second time. Unfortunately,it is each of us who puts ourselves individually into that predicament. Fortunately, God does tell us that we, even in this predicament, are still redeemable and the label of righteousness restored to us.

At the end of the End Times, Sin will be no more.

Shalom
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:38 am

One of the reasons for this thread is to address things such as the following......
Jay Ross wrote:God's truth, is always true, but the sad thing is that many people around the world believe that their understanding of God's truth is what is true.

Our Willingness to Acknowledge that We All are Part of the "many people around the world believe that their understanding of God's truth is what is true."

All of us have a personal perspective and Bias.

We All need to understand that. There are ways to Disallow Personal Bias and study with open hearts and minds.
This thread is designed to discuss How we may all accomplish such.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:00 pm

In an earlier post in this thread, I posted an abstract outline on the mechanisms involved in face to face oral communications, oral communications which are not face to face, i.e. phone communications including video skype communications where the vision of the "complete room" or person is partly obscured from observation by the other participant, written communications, i.e. internet forums where emotions are often obscured by the words chosen to be used for the communication process and the meta data differences between the sender and receiver of the messages is totally different, even when both "speak" using the same language/dictionary but different short hand language meanings.

In English the seemingly simple word "take" has a multitude of around 75 different meanings such that a simple statement of, "Please take a seat." can mean, (1) please sit down, (2) please steal the chair, (3) please carry the chair, (4) {please}, swallow the chair {as your medicine}, (5) please help yourself to the chair, when the context of the "Please take a seat," is not known.

Sadly, we become protective of ourselves, when we do not completely understand what is being communicated. We are often judgemental and attempt to take the high moral ground, or pigeon hole the other person involved in the communication, tell them that they are wrong because of our own biases, etc. etc.. Sadly, I have experienced all of these things on this very forum and been told, by the use of false arguments, that because no-one agree with me, that I am wrong. Recently, it seemed to me that, a member picked up his bat and ball and said that he no longer wanted to play with any of us on this forum because one or two other members dared to question his interpretation of scriptural passages.

Others, in the same vein, have chosen to deliberately ignore certain other members because their understanding of scripture has been challenged by that person and called into doubt the very foundation of their theological constructs such that it will cause it all to fall down in a heap like a stack of cards. By ignoring the other member the onset of the falling down of their theological constructs has been put off to another time, unless they come to understand the error in their construct and re jig their construct to improve their theological understanding.

Other times, the "rules of evidence" is thrown out of the discussion and loud heated emotional arguments tend to be the order of the day. This is not desired by the moderators of this forum and they take what they deem to be appropriate action.

Often secular circles are more understanding and forgiving and our "witness" of our beliefs is lost in our actions.

Simply put, what we often see as "evidence" is nothing more than a power game to gain dominance in the discussion.

But that is just life and it all depends on how well we understand what the boundary conditions of the life that we believe we have, are. It all depends on what we believe is important for us to "win."
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Re: Evidently

Postby keithareilly on Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:35 pm

John 13:34-35 ESV
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I suggest believers study Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. It will provide insight as to why we are not known as Christ's disciples by our consistency of creed.

Keith
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Re: Evidently

Postby mark s on Mon Oct 10, 2016 4:35 pm

We all need to learn to acknowledge Evidence that is provided from another perspective other than our own.
Acknowledging contrary Evidence against our own Ideas is not a concession of Evidence that supports our own personal ideas.

We must learn to base Evidence upon it's OWN MERIT, and Not Refuse to Acknowledge Evidence simply because it Does Not AGREE with our Own Ideas.


I've given this thread much thought since it was began.

I've returned to the OP. These statements raise certain questions in my mind.

What would be the sign that someone is Not "acknowledging contrary evidence" to their own view? Or to put this another way, what would communicate to you that someone is not giving your view a fair hearing?

I can really only think of two ways that could happen. One would be for that person to say it. "I'm not interested in considering your view." Or some such.

The other would be to make an assumption based on the fact that they happen to disagree with you. "You just aren't giving proper weight to my evidence."

I think that this is something only the individual can know about their own mind. That is, of course, unless they actually communicate it to another.

What reply can there be to, "I understand what you are saying, but I disagree"?

Might we simply accept that from each other? Or do we feel the need to reject that statement, thinking it not true? Would it be better to turn back to our own ideas, and consider our own views in light of their opinion? That is something we can only do ourselves.

What does it communicate when I say to you, Are you SURE you've acknowledged the validity of my evidence?

ST, I'd like to ask you . . . in what ways have you learned to give greater consideration towards other people's views which disagree with your own? Do you feel that you sometimes reject out of hand proffered evidence of differing opinions?

You don't need to answer these if you don't wish. I simply think the bottom line is that we each know the answers to these questions for and of ourselves.

There are ways to Disallow Personal Bias and study with open hearts and minds.
This thread is designed to discuss How we may all accomplish such.


I think that humility is not something that is easily taught. I think it must simply be learned.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:31 pm

mark s wrote:What would be the sign that someone is Not "acknowledging contrary evidence" to their own view? Or to put this another way, what would communicate to you that someone is not giving your view a fair hearing?
Thanx for jumping in again on this mark.
You answered already correctly.....here...
mark s wrote:I think that this is something only the individual can know about their own mind.

That Is correct, and earlier in this thread, I said something to that effect.
Only the Person examining the evidence can know for certain if they are being True to themselves and genuinely giving contrary evidence a fair, complete and reasonable hearing.
mark s wrote:Might we simply accept that from each other?

We have no other option do we?
One of the reasons for this thread is not to Be Certain that Others Give OUR Options fair treatment, but to Learn How to Give Other Opinions Fair Treatment.

mark s wrote:Would it be better to turn back to our own ideas, and consider our own views in light of their opinion? That is something we can only do ourselves.

Yes, That Is one of the things we always Need to do.
mark s wrote:What does it communicate when I say to you, Are you SURE you've acknowledged the validity of my evidence?

It means to me, that you are asking me a very sincere question. Surety is as Complicated as Absoluteness though.
mark s wrote:ST, I'd like to ask you . . . in what ways have you learned to give greater consideration towards other people's views which disagree with your own? Do you feel that you sometimes reject out of hand proffered evidence of differing opinions?

Greater consideration is given when I Know that I do not Know Absolutely, and That is why I give other Opinions a Real Consideration. Part of your question has been answered earlier in the thread, that being ,Examining Evidence on it's Own Merit.
I've got to run, but will list some more for you ok? Great questions brother.
mark s wrote:You don't need to answer these if you don't wish. I simply think the bottom line is that we each know the answers to these questions for and of ourselves.

You are so very right about that...and That is what we All Need to Realize.
mark s wrote:I think that humility is not something that is easily taught. I think it must simply be learned.

Yes, but Humility itself is a Great Teacher.

Humble Pie can be like Manna From God. And How much can we Learn if we Love That Daily Bread?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Mon Oct 10, 2016 7:58 pm

Jay Ross wrote:I have experienced all of these things on this very forum and been told, by the use of false arguments, that because no-one agree with me, that I am wrong.

It is true that a more common opinion can be correct, but also very often those commonly held opinions are not.
And for a person to Use as an argument that there is no agreement to be discovered from any modern or ancient source with a very uncommon opinion is still not a Strong Argument.
For an example, I have an opinion that I do believe to be correct regarding the Horses and Chariots of Zech 6. There is not one place that I have read or heard, ancient or modern, where my opinion has representation.
So, a person could argue against my idea based on that, and they would be fine to argue that, it is a valid point to be made, but it is not an argument that is strong enough to settle the matter.

Everybody who has been on this forum for any length will agree that your opinions are not generally agreed with, but that alone is not a good reason to Disregard your opinions. I for one, argue against many of them, but I Will Not bring myself to Disregard them.

In more than one post I have said that your prophetic idea has validity, and should The Many of our short term ideas that are commonly held here fail, I have a good idea that we may have been wise to allow more of your arguments greater acceptation.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Exit40 on Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:03 am

keithareilly wrote:John 13:34-35 ESV
34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I suggest believers study Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem. It will provide insight as to why we are not known as Christ's disciples by our consistency of creed.

Keith


Hi Keith. I have to laugh a wee bit at this suggestion. Godels Theorem I mean, not your reflection on our Discipleship. It is a bit heavy for our purposes here methinks and, for me at least, lends itself to seeking so diligently with our weak and faulted human minds we can find ourselves in our original position having come upon ourselves from behind still not knowing anything other than we still seek in earnest that which we started out to find. If that doesn't make sense please consider none of us knows the back of our own head. And that Scripture itself says Scripture witnesses to itself two or three times in it's own proof of evidence. Although Our Father needs no witness He does Graciously provide that which He desires us to know, perhaps only within the correct time frame required for the understanding of the revelation. Thus it occurs to me, probably not frequently enough, that no one can understand the Mind of God, unless it is granted by Him for His purpose, once again within a granted prescribed time period. We have to face this concept, if any one of us has all the answers would we be able to keep this to ourselves ? Or would we succumb to the flesh and tip the Lord's hand by untimely revelation that which He desires to keep secret until it suits His purpose to reveal it. It not only appears to be the latter, it actually is as here we are discussing not only that which is true and correct, but who it is that has it right. So as Scripture is Christ manifest for us, our Living Word in our hands a well as our hearts, I humbly offer the following for our considerations ...

Col 3:12-17 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Col 3:23-25 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.


My heart soars like a hawk ... at this reading.

God Bless You Brother

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Evidently

Postby keithareilly on Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:53 am

Hi David,

It may be a bit deep. In essence, we cannot prove anything without first accepting certain axioms on faith. This is the application of Godel's theorem to this discussion. We don't agree on the axioms; therefore, we cannot be expected to arrive at the same conclusions even through the same logical argument(s).

Scripture talks about each believer having their own faith; one believes something is a sin while another's faith does not. This is just an example of the different axioms we each employ in our individual faith. A consequence of different axioms is different conclusions. This is unavoidable. To expect that we may all one day come to the same understanding is unrealistic.

Furthermore, the idea that the same evidence used to construct a proof can also be used to construct a different proof yielding a different conclusion has not been accounted for in this discussion.

Consider the following:

An inclusive OR condition "A or B" has three possible true outcomes.
1) A is true
2) B is true
3) A and B are both true

Furthermore, an And condition "A and B" is a subset of "A or B". (See number 3)
How many people consider in their arguments that a scripture stating "A and B" is also stating "A or B" then take the time to ascertain whether either "A" or "B" can be true independatly of each other as in conditions 1 and 2 and if those conditions also yield proof?

A Truth has many corollaries, each with many facets, all of which depend on the axioms through which a truth is mated.

Our faith combined with truth and reason yield proof.
Our faith, granted to us by God, is the shaping factor of our lives; therefore, our usefulness towards accomplishing God's agenda. If we all agreed, we would all be the same type of tool and would not fit together synergetically to form a new whole unit. The reality of the alternator is different than the reality of the piston. Yet, each are essential for your car to run.

Keith
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Re: Evidently

Postby Sanderson on Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:21 pm

I ran across this site quite awhile back and saved the link to read later. The bumping of this thread reminded me of it and I am going back to read thru it. It is slow going for me right now but I have read enough to think it might be of interest to some that are reading this thread.

Quick summary:https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2013/02/26/the-rules-of-affinity-simplified/
RULES OF AFFINITY

Premise:If all Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, it is imperative that our doctrines line up with Scripture. Theology may be defined as correct alignment with the pronouncements of the Bible.

The ‘Rules’ demonstrate that some doctrines line up much more closely to Scripture than others. Those with a very strong, direct “affinity” are ranked in the first category (C1). Those with the weakest claim to any affinity with the text of the Bible are ranked category five (C5).

C1 = a direct statement
C2 = a strong inference
C3 = an inference to the best explanation
C4 = a weak inference
C5 = an inference based on another inference


Full post and other related links:https://drreluctant.wordpress.com/2012/04/03/rules-of-affinity/
Introduction

What I call “The Rules of Affinity” are a relatively straightforward device whereby a theological proposition (e.g. that a sinner is justified by faith) is compared with the texts of scripture by which it is supported to disclose how closely those passages agree with the proposition in question.

Thus, a theological proposition may be adduced which has either direct “one-on-one” relation to a text of the Bible (e.g. justification by faith, or that God created the world), or strong reasons for deriving the doctrine from certain texts of the Bible (e.g. the doctrine of the Trinity); or it may have little or nothing to do with any scriptural passage brought forth to substantiate it, especially once the passage is viewed within its context (e.g. propositions such as the covenant of grace or infant baptism).

It is understood, of course, that the wrong texts may be mistakenly employed in support of a sound doctrine. These “rules” will help ferret out such misapplications by highlighting the weak link between text and proposition. This does not mean the proposition must be discarded automatically. It may be that other texts of Scripture can be brought forth to fully support the doctrinal proposition. In which case, ones scriptural case for a certain theological belief will only be bolstered. On the other hand, if after successive attempts to align the Bible with a given doctrine fail to produce any clear relationship between them, the proposition must be held to suspect or even spurious.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Exit40 on Wed Oct 12, 2016 5:11 am

Sanderson wrote:I ran across this site quite awhile back and saved the link to read later. The bumping of this thread reminded me of it and I am going back to read thru it. It is slow going for me right now but I have read enough to think it might be of interest to some that are reading this thread.


Hi Sanderson. Yes it is interesting, thank you. And may I suggest for the quoted article at least for anyone reading, substitute the word 'prophecy' for the word 'doctrine'. One statement I found particularly applicable was to not hold someones belief as heretical if seem to hold different if not contradictory beliefs/positions, rather as "entertaining certain teachings based more upon human reasoning than upon the evidence of the texts of Scripture". Sometimes we here reflect this in our disagreements, sometimes we don't. Of course we should keep this in mind if we are to know and teach what we believe to others as we cannot beat the truth into anyone, or berate them into it either.

Something that Keith said about people having 'their own Faith', where one believe something is a sin, while another's Faith believes it is not, is a matter of doctrine. And it is here the Scripture can be focused into a common belief and call it doctrine based on the solid evidence of Scripture. Not as easy to so with Prophecy, as Keith also said , '' Furthermore, the idea that the same evidence used to construct a proof can also be used to construct a different proof yielding a different conclusion has not been accounted for in this discussion ". I agree here, and point out this is actually the focus of the discussion, that there are multiple ways to interpret certain passages as they can become applicable to a paradigm of belief, thjis as much by human reasoning as it is by Scriptural evidence, or solid proof. That we cannot convince ourselves and each other of the '' Truth " is a condition of our Lord's discretion I believe, as I said, if anyone of us knows the Truth of Prophecy can we keep it secret so as to not tip His hand and destroy the outcome in the process ? If we keep in mind this premise, that Prophecy is written for us to not just seek the Truth to know it, but also and more importantly I believe, to be able to say after it's fulfillment, LOOK HERE WHAT THE LORD SAID ! Repeating myself, the Lord gets the Glory for being perfectly right and ... Truthful ... and we get to be Faithful servants diligently report just that.


God Bless You Brother

David

PS. I too have bookmarked that site for further reading.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:49 pm

ST, evidently from your last post, many on this forum do not attempt to weight another forum members ideas because of the bias they hold with their pet theory/theories concerning the End Times.

You said it all with these short sentences: -
Everybody who has been on this forum for any length will agree that your opinions are not generally agreed with, but that alone is not a good reason to Disregard your opinions. I for one, argue against many of them, but I Will Not bring myself to Disregard them.

In more than one post I have said that your prophetic idea has validity, and should The Many of our short term ideas that are commonly held here fail, I have a good idea that we may have been wise to allow more of your arguments greater acceptation.


My experience is it begins with the fallible language translations of the original texts that we rely on for our evidence of error in another forum member's theories/ideas.

As such, because we do not know if the scriptural translations convey the true meaning of the original texts or in fact have tested the numerous translations to see if they do convey God's truth within them consistently, our discussions and differing points of view become lost in the mire of ignorance on the part of all partaking in the discussion.

The breadth of the English language is often not wide enough to convey the ideas contained within the original text. An example of this is the concept of "a distant point in time, just outside of the limitations of what we are able to see, and which is beyond our ability to presently understand because of how far into the future it is" found in a number of Hebrew Words, with respect to the time that the prophecy was first given, is condensed into one English word which converts the finite timespan for the fulfilment of the prophecy into an infinite timespan where the provided extent of the finite timespan for the prophecy is lost because of the use of the English word, "forever." Because of the changed concept of "forever" from the intended meaning of the Hebrew word being translated, the finite timespan provided, i.e. "dowr waadowr" {an age/a generation plus an additional age/generation} is changed into the infinite timespan of {many ages/generation}. Isaiah 61:4 is one such example. Because we are coming to the end of the finite timespan in this verse, it is possible for us to form the opinion that the translation of "dowr waadowr" as "many generation" simply does not cut it whereas the a translation of "two generations/ages" conveys the idea that at the end of the fourth generation/age of the descendants of Abraham beginning from the time of Isaac's birth, that the two ages of the visitation of the iniquities of the "fathers during the first two ages will be visited on the children and their children's children during the next to generation/ages. Christ's first visitation happened just before God's yoke of the visitation of their iniquities begins with an offer that if they would accept His light yoke and repented for their idolatrous iniquities, then the heavy yoke of the visitation of their iniquities would be removed from them.

Knowing this timespan for the visitation of the iniquities on the nation of Israel, we can know when the fulfilment of the visitation of the iniquities on the nation of Israel will end. The lesson of the Fig Tree in Matthew 24:32 with its associated flexible timespan also confirms when the beginning of the harvest season begins with the redemption of Israel being the first fruits of Christ's first 1,000 years of dominion over the peoples of the earth.

This time will soon become imminent but at present it is still outside of the boundaries of possibilities for many to comprehend.

This for me in a nut shell is the major difficulty many have in being able to come to terms with God's prophetic timeline. We hold dearly onto what we believe we know in the hope that it will be right.

The "evidence" is there to examine to know that over the last 2,000 or so years, many have believed that the redemption of all of Israel was imminent and they have been continually shuffling the goal post further and further back in time in the hope that at least once they will be right.

Sadly, we all often argue out of our ignorance and not out of a firm foundational understanding of God's undeniable Truth.

Evidently the evidence does condemn us.
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Re: Evidently

Postby keithareilly on Wed Oct 12, 2016 3:27 pm

Jay wrote ...

As such, because we do not know if the scriptural translations convey the true meaning of the original texts or in fact have tested the numerous translations to see if they do convey God's truth within them consistently, our discussions and differing points of view become lost in the mire of ignorance on the part of all partaking in the discussion.


The underlying assumption in your statement is the prophecy was understandable to those who existed during the time setting when the prophecy was made using the language of that time. This assumption fails to recognize that the context of distant future prophecies is the distant future. Like many statements, the appropriate context is necessary to understand the meaning of the statement. Reason dictates the people who exist during the context in which the prophecy is fulfilled will be better able to grasp the meaning of the prophecy than those whose lives and experiences exist outside the context of the prophecy's fulfillment.

Keith
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:24 pm

keithareilly wrote:To expect that we may all one day come to the same understanding is unrealistic.

It's not actually unrealistic though Keith, although it certainly does seem impossible at present.
The word of God does tell us the following, and I believe it.....

Eph 4:
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:45 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay wrote ...

As such, because we do not know if the scriptural translations convey the true meaning of the original texts or in fact have tested the numerous translations to see if they do convey God's truth within them consistently, our discussions and differing points of view become lost in the mire of ignorance on the part of all partaking in the discussion.


The underlying assumption in your statement is the prophecy was understandable to those who existed during the time setting when the prophecy was made using the language of that time. This assumption fails to recognize that the context of distant future prophecies is the distant future. Like many statements, the appropriate context is necessary to understand the meaning of the statement. Reason dictates the people who exist during the context in which the prophecy is fulfilled will be better able to grasp the meaning of the prophecy than those whose lives and experiences exist outside the context of the prophecy's fulfillment.

Keith


Keith do you think that the Spiritual leaders of Israel, during the time period of Jesus' first advent, really understood the significance of the single verse prophecy contained in Daniel 9:24.
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Re: Evidently

Postby keithareilly on Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:20 am

Jay Ross wrote:
keithareilly wrote:Jay wrote ...

As such, because we do not know if the scriptural translations convey the true meaning of the original texts or in fact have tested the numerous translations to see if they do convey God's truth within them consistently, our discussions and differing points of view become lost in the mire of ignorance on the part of all partaking in the discussion.


The underlying assumption in your statement is the prophecy was understandable to those who existed during the time setting when the prophecy was made using the language of that time. This assumption fails to recognize that the context of distant future prophecies is the distant future. Like many statements, the appropriate context is necessary to understand the meaning of the statement. Reason dictates the people who exist during the context in which the prophecy is fulfilled will be better able to grasp the meaning of the prophecy than those whose lives and experiences exist outside the context of the prophecy's fulfillment.

Keith


Keith do you think that the Spiritual leaders of Israel, during the time period of Jesus' first advent, really understood the significance of the single verse prophecy contained in Daniel 9:24.


Jay,

I think the authors of the letters which make up the New Testament had the best grasp of the meaning of those prophecies fulfilled by Jesus during His first advent.

Keith
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Re: Evidently

Postby keithareilly on Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:01 am

Shortribber,

Yes, I was wrong. One day it will most certainly happen.

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.


Until we are face to face we shall only see dimly, not know fully as we are fully known.
One day this will happen.

I just don't see it happening soon. For as long as there are new converts to Christ, we shall have children and the corresponding immaturity that prevents the oneness in faith you posted about from Ephesians. Some other reality than has existed for the last 2000 years will have to be in existence before this happens. Until we have a reality where we experience the FACE TO FACE, I don't see this happening.


Keith
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Re: Evidently

Postby shorttribber on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:09 am

keithareilly wrote:Until we are face to face we shall only see dimly, not know fully as we are fully known. One day this will happen.

I Believe Eph 4 occurs Before we are gathered to Christ :grin:

keithareilly wrote:I just don't see it happening soon. For as long as there are new converts to Christ, we shall have children and the corresponding immaturity that prevents the oneness in faith you posted about from Ephesians.

Good point....but remember the old saying, "Ya can't Teach and Old Dog new tricks"? It will kinda be like that I think, of such children are the Kingdom.

keithareilly wrote:Some other reality than has existed for the last 2000 years will have to be in existence before this happens.

Yep, and That Reality is coming Before Christ comes, that's what Eph 4 tells us.

There will be no need of Faith and Sound Doctrine After we are Literally in Glorified Bodies Kieth, Eph 4 Will be fulfilled BEFORE Christ returns.

:banana: I know it seems impossible...but not with God...it will be His Doing and His Work in us Alone. :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Evidently

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:09 pm

keithareilly wrote:<snip>
Jay Ross wrote:Keith do you think that the Spiritual leaders of Israel, during the time period of Jesus' first advent, really understood the significance of the single verse prophecy contained in Daniel 9:24.


Jay,

I think the authors of the letters which make up the New Testament had the best grasp of the meaning of those prophecies fulfilled by Jesus during His first advent.

Keith

If you had read my question carefully, the writers of the New Testament letters were not the spiritual leaders of Israel at the time of Jesus' first advent and as such you have not answered my question at all.

What you have stated in response, though, may be true, but it does not speak to the issue as to whether or not the spiritual leaders of Israel understood the implications of the single prophecy embedded in Daniel 7:24.

Oh well, may I not get a bee in my bonnet, over the lack of understanding in what was written and presented by me in my question, but it does go to highlight the underlying problem though.
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