Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

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Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Tue May 27, 2014 12:11 pm

(This is a reprise of a string I began in 2010. I wasn’t able to do it justice, being online only 2-3 times a month. I’m now able to post twice a week.)

Thesis: The 70th week of Daniel 9 was fulfilled within 66-73 A.D., during the Jewish War with Rome that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. (Christ did not return at that time.)

Significance: 1) If this is true, then there is no need for a Temple to be rebuilt in Jerusalem before either the return of Christ or the Coming of the Son of Perdition (and/or Antichrist and/or Beast). Those who are expecting the Temple may look past the mark, and be unaware when the Abomination of Desolation takes place. More on this later.
2) For classic pre-wrathers and mid-tribbers, no initial 1260-day half-week, and no full week for classic post-tribbers, must come before Christ’s return.
3) The Great Tribulation, which follows the Abomination of Desolation, can (and I believe shall) be short.

Verse by verse:
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city…
[The prophecy is for the remnant of Judah (Daniel’s people) and for Jerusalem, none else.]

to finish the transgression/peshah…
[The word means and refers to the revolt/rebellion/apostasy of the priesthood, the one originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. This took place when Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed the pious Onias III from the high priesthood and installed his apostatizing brother Jason; latter 170s B.C. 1 Macc. 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood and Temple “the apostasy” [apostasian]. Similar corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned it, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it. Matt. 23, esp. vs. 35-39.]

and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness…
[All accomplished by the Crucifixion and Resurrection.]

and to close up vision and prophecy…
[Matt. 11:13: “For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.” Luke 16:16: “The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it.” OT prophecy – that of Daniel’s people – ended at John the Baptist. OT prophets had the Holy Spirit “come upon” them. Beginning at John, prophets were “filled with” it. The former phrase is never used by the NT, and the latter never by the OT.]

and to anoint the Most Holy. [= Jesus, who became Melchizedek High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary.]

9:25 For the 62 weeks of years “unto Messiah the Prince,” I believe we are all in basic agreement. Precise dates are irrelevant to the issue here.

9:26 And after the 62 weeks/sevens [of years], Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.
[I believe we all agree that this was fulfilled at the Crucifixion.]

And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.
[The coming ruler was Vespasian, the commanding Roman general, then emperor, during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. “His people” destroyed and desolated Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D.; however, it was done in fulfillment of his policy and orders. Rebel Zealots and Idumeans also caused widespread desolation in the war, both in Jerusalem and throughout the Judean countryside.
Jesus prophesied about these events, and when and how they would take place. Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Jesus thus decreed a desolation upon the “house” of the apostatizing Jewish establishment, probably meaning both their lineage and their Temple.
Luke 19:43-44: “For the days shall come upon you [Jerusalem], that your enemies will build an embankment around you, and surround you and close you in on every side, and shall level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”]

9:27 And he will have caused to make strong/to prevail/to confirm [a] covenant for many one week [of years].
[“…he will have caused”: 3 masc. sing. Hiphil Perfect. This was Vespasian’s policy, which he established from the beginning of the war: for those Jews who would continue to submit to Rome’s civil authority, Rome would continue to maintain the peace and permit the Jews to allow only YHWH-worship in the land. But any place in the land that harbored rebellion against Rome, including Jerusalem and Temple, would be desolated.
Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.”  III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…”  III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]

And in the midst of the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and offering. And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural], even until the consummation decreed is poured upon the desolate.
[In 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” – no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel – the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1. The utter desolation by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the desolation of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73.]

Thus, Daniel 9:24-27 provides an accurate summary of events in Judea from the First Coming of the Messiah up to the destruction of the Temple. It doesn’t mention at all
– any abomination of desolation of the Holy Place;
– the time of the end/latter time/latter days, or any similar term;
– the Great Tribulation/time of trouble such as never was;
– the saints, or any flight of God’s people;
– Messiah’s coming in the clouds, Divine Judgment, and/or the establishment of God’s kingdom;
– the coming prince’s demise;
– or the raising of the dead.
These topics are discussed elsewhere in Daniel’s End Time prophecies. Why not here? Because this is not a prophecy for the end of Church Age, but rather for the Jewish Age.

There is no scripture that prophesies the rebuilding of the Temple prior to the Second Coming of the Messiah.
There is no scripture that says Jerusalem will be destroyed in the End Times.
There is no scripture that specifically speaks of a 7-year period in the End Times.

There is no scripture that speaks of a Temple (Greek, hieron) in Jerusalem in the End Times, before Messiah comes to build it. Passages people cite, such as 2 Thes. 2:4 and Rev. 11:1, speak of a naos (holy place or sanctuary), which is the sacred place around which a temple is built. English Bibles generally mistranslate the word as temple, leading to much confusion. For example, Jesus taught in the hieron/temple, never the naos/sanctuary. Judas, however, threw the 30 pieces of silver into the naos, not hieron, which is very noteworthy. Most English Bibles cause readers to totally miss the distinction in this and many other places where naos is mistranslated as temple. Another example: hieron is never used in the Book of Revelation text, only naos.

To summarize: everything prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 was fulfilled by 70 A.D. No word or phrase – nothing – in the passage carries any unequivocal End Time terminology.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue May 27, 2014 1:05 pm

Hello

Perhaps I might be missing something, but to my way of thinking: -

Daniel 9:24-26a was fulfilled before 70 AD.

Daniel 9:26b started before 70 AD and has embedded in the half verse prophecy a time span of some 2,000 years before it will be completely fulfilled.

Then there is a gap of precisely 1,000 years between the end of Daniel 9:26b and the beginning of Daniel 9:27 before the last 24 or so years for the Daniel 9:27 prophecy to be fulfilled before the time of the end actually comes into view and the judgement time begins.

Now I can substantiate the above statements from the scriptures and I have previously but today I am in catch up mode.

Shalom

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue May 27, 2014 10:32 pm

WilliamL wrote:9:25 For the 62 weeks of years “unto Messiah the Prince,” I believe we are all in basic agreement. Precise dates are irrelevant to the issue here.

9:26 And after the 62 weeks/sevens [of years], Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself.
[I believe we all agree that this was fulfilled at the Crucifixion.]


Hi WilliamL, I see clearly that it is 62 weeks and no where it is mentioned that it after 69 weeks that Messiah shall be cut off.... can you please explain? Thanks, KA.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu May 29, 2014 11:00 am

KA: I see clearly that it is 62 weeks and no where it is mentioned that it after 69 weeks that Messiah shall be cut off.... can you please explain? Thanks, KA.

Two reasons: The numbers up to the Crucifixion won't come out if you don't use the full 69 weeks. Trying to predate Christ's birth to 11-15 or so BC flies in the face of the substantial historical record of Herod's reign and Rome's rule. No one proficient in the the history of the era doubts that Jesus was crucified within 27-34 AD. If you want to argue otherwise, you need to present equally substantial evidence from the historical record of the period to make your case.

2nd reason: keeping the 7 + 62 time periods in sequence makes the most logical sense, barring evidence from Daniel to the contrary, and he gives none.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 6:41 am

WilliamL wrote:No one proficient in the the history of the era doubts that Jesus was crucified within 27-34 AD.

That's what I recall also.
WilliamL wrote:Those who are expecting the Temple may look past the mark, and be unaware when the Abomination of Desolation takes place. More on this later.

Agree here to....wanting to read more about your idea of what the AOD is/will be.
WilliamL wrote:The Great Tribulation, which follows the Abomination of Desolation, can (and I believe shall) be short.

would like to know your thoughts on this more too
WilliamL wrote:and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness… [All accomplished by the Crucifixion and Resurrection.]

And the "Making" or "Foundational" (the most Essential) Part/Aspect certainly could not have occurred in that popularized unspecified area of time BETWEEN the 69th and 70th week either.
WilliamL wrote:And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed. [The coming ruler was Vespasian, the commanding Roman general, then emperor, during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. “His people” destroyed and desolated Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D.; however, it was done in fulfillment of his policy and orders. Rebel Zealots and Idumeans also caused widespread desolation in the war, both in Jerusalem and throughout the Judean countryside.Jesus prophesied about these events, and when and how they would take place. Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Jesus thus decreed a desolation upon the “house” of the apostatizing Jewish establishment, probably meaning both their lineage and their Temple. Luke 19:43-44: “For the days shall come upon you [Jerusalem], that your enemies will build an embankment around you, and surround you and close you in on every side, and shall level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”] 9:27 And he will have caused to make strong/to prevail/to confirm [a] covenant for many one week [of years]. [“…he will have caused”: 3 masc. sing. Hiphil Perfect. This was Vespasian’s policy, which he established from the beginning of the war: for those Jews who would continue to submit to Rome’s civil authority, Rome would continue to maintain the peace and permit the Jews to allow only YHWH-worship in the land. But any place in the land that harbored rebellion against Rome, including Jerusalem and Temple, would be desolated.Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.” III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…” III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]And in the midst of the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and offering. And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural], even until the consummation decreed is poured upon the desolate. [In 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” – no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel – the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1. The utter desolation by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the desolation of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73.]

And this is an Extraordinarily Clear example of Undeniably, and Perfectly Fulfilled Prophecy.
Let me say this though, it Is Deniable by many, but is it Wise or Reasonable to do so? No it is not IMO.

But, this Example pertains to something I've been intending to mention for a long time, but only have been able to discuss in part so far. And that is, you guessed it, it is a Layer of prophecy.
But before I lose your interest in the idea because of any strongly held opinion that prophecy has not any layering characteristics or aspects........please allow further explanation.

This Specific example is Paramount in Understanding the "Confirmation of THE Covenant" and HOW it WAS and WILL BE Fulfilled.
Now, many or most of you will think....I know Already what ole Shortribber is going to say :wink: but no you don't, you really don't.....this is something I've Never mentioned before.

This post is getting to be too long now......I'm going to break it in Half and quote only the portion necessary to explain further the New and unsaid things I'm referring to.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri May 30, 2014 10:17 am

Is there going to be a seven year peace treaty or not? Because i dont see that in the New Testement. I only see 42 months. i just made and ordered 1,000 prophecy brochures to hand out to people, that says that the ac will confirm a seven year peace treaty and break the treaty during its midst. Do i need to white out that part on every single brochure? The last thing i want to do is have people read that and then totally discount what it says because that one thing didnt happen.
Only thing i see in the NT that hints at a seven year peace treaty is in matthew 24, it says "when you see the AOD spoken of by daniel the prophet..." so we know that is a future prophecy. Are we sure a week is a seven year peroid? And if so then obviously the seven weeks will be up in 2 years from now. Also, did anything signifigant happen 434 yrs before the death of Christ, to explain how the 62 weeks fits in? Im sure this has already been discussed, sorry to jump in the middle of the conversation.
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So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 12:48 pm

Hi EC,
extravagantchristian wrote:Is there going to be a seven year peace treaty or not? Because i dont see that in the New Testement.


Actually, it is not in the Old testament either, absolutely stated. Now, I could be wrong about that, as far as a Future 7 year Peace Deal, but if there is a future 7 year treaty, I believe it will serve only as a Decoy kind of Fulfillment with the underlying purpose of creating a level of uncertainty, and may very well Coincide or Occur Simultaneously WITH or maybe very close to, if not the Exact Same Day as the Future AOD.

That sounds very confusing I know, but that may well happen IMO. Remember, "Let the Reader Understand", there is an Element of the AOD that will not be Understood by the Masses. I need to stop here and work on the post I mentioned earlier.

There is nothing wrong with passing out the things you have really though, God knows already WHO will Follow Him in HIS TRUE COVENANT and Who will not. We can Rest in HIS Faithfulness......and just be Workmen Together WITH HIM the best we Are Able to do....and that's All we Can Do.

Blessings on all your efforts with Christ EC.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri May 30, 2014 2:51 pm

I just think, how many people would repent if someone told them that the bible says they have to to be saved? And how many people might not take the mark, if someone told them beforehand what the bible says? I know that i used to be one of those people, and if i hadnt have heard Pat Robertson say those things plainly on TV i might not have been saved. Theres so many people that just need the information. And its our responcibility. The Lord said if e dont tell them and they perish then their blood is on our hands.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri May 30, 2014 3:18 pm

WilliamL wrote:KA: I see clearly that it is 62 weeks and no where it is mentioned that it after 69 weeks that Messiah shall be cut off.... can you please explain? Thanks, KA.

Two reasons: The numbers up to the Crucifixion won't come out if you don't use the full 69 weeks. Trying to predate Christ's birth to 11-15 or so BC flies in the face of the substantial historical record of Herod's reign and Rome's rule. No one proficient in the the history of the era doubts that Jesus was crucified within 27-34 AD. If you want to argue otherwise, you need to present equally substantial evidence from the historical record of the period to make your case.

2nd reason: keeping the 7 + 62 time periods in sequence makes the most logical sense, barring evidence from Daniel to the contrary, and he gives none.


I for one am not pressured by "overwhelming" evidence. I did a bit of study into history myself and dating an event is difficult. Very often, events are linked to another event and if one of the events in the chain of events is wrongly dated, you can see how the dates gets more and more wrong as it goes along. The overwhelming evidence is there was no Jewish race who worked as slaves in the history of Egypt but actually various historians and archeologists have found inscriptions talking about it but their voices are covered because they are not overwhelming....Scientists would say that the overwhelming evidence is that the earth is old and there was no worldwide flood in the past. The overwhelming evidence is proof of evolution?

I have provided serious study of the correct dates regarding Herod and the birth of Christ from new findings of the dates of the census, and astronmy etc in a link in my other thread. And these are Christians archeologists and historians who put up the evidence for a earlier date... And they are just putting up the facts... They are not linking their findings to any prophecies or such which might make them biased... Have a look....

Regarding, the second reason... I think we need to read the words of Daniel again. Daniel says 62... Firstly, if it was meant to be consecutive, Daniel is really confusing us as to the significance of splitting 70 into 3 portion. Second, and I will belabor the point that it is not after 7+62 weeks, neither is it after 69 weeks.... It is clearly after 62 weeks.

I suspect that many in the past have tried to make sense of Daniel 70 weeks prophecy and rushed to find one decree in the past to some point in the life of Jesus Christ that fits and viola! It stuck that Daniel prophecy works when we add 7+62 weeks together. But if the bible says 62 I think it best to admit it is 62 and say I do not know how it fits.... But praise be to God, there are evidences that it will fit the 62 weeks from the decree Unto the coming of Messiah...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 5:11 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:I just think, how many people would repent if someone told them that the bible says they have to to be saved? And how many people might not take the mark, if someone told them beforehand what the bible says? I know that i used to be one of those people, and if i hadnt have heard Pat Robertson say those things plainly on TV i might not have been saved. Theres so many people that just need the information. And its our responcibility. The Lord said if e dont tell them and they perish then their blood is on our hands.


keep in mind, it is our responsibility Only In Part.........It is the Holy Spirit's Responsibility to Convince anyone of sin.
It is the Fathers Responsibility to draw them to His Son.
Be careful not to take to yourself ALONE the Responsibility and Requirements laid upon the Old Testament Prophets.

Their Ministry and Responsibility was much different from ours. God spoke Plainly, Openly and Audibly to them, they could not Mistake when God Spoke.
God knows Our Shortcomings and the Enormous Amount of Misinformation and half truth that we must sift through to testify for Christ, especially when it comes to the Sure Word of Prophecy.........Rest in His Wisdom......keep the salvation message Simple....................preach Christ and Him Crucified when it comes to salvation and souls.

As far as end time prophecy......just tell them to be READY for ANYTHING. And KEEP the Faith till the END, no matter what Happens.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 7:51 pm

Posting this again
WilliamL wrote:And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed. [The coming ruler was Vespasian, the commanding Roman general, then emperor, during the Jewish War of 66-73 A.D. “His people” destroyed and desolated Jerusalem and Temple in 70 A.D.; however, it was done in fulfillment of his policy and orders. Rebel Zealots and Idumeans also caused widespread desolation in the war, both in Jerusalem and throughout the Judean countryside.Jesus prophesied about these events, and when and how they would take place. Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.” Jesus thus decreed a desolation upon the “house” of the apostatizing Jewish establishment, probably meaning both their lineage and their Temple. Luke 19:43-44: “For the days shall come upon you [Jerusalem], that your enemies will build an embankment around you, and surround you and close you in on every side, and shall level you, and your children within you, to the ground, and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”] 9:27 And he will have caused to make strong/to prevail/to confirm [a] covenant for many one week [of years]. [“…he will have caused”: 3 masc. sing. Hiphil Perfect. This was Vespasian’s policy, which he established from the beginning of the war: for those Jews who would continue to submit to Rome’s civil authority, Rome would continue to maintain the peace and permit the Jews to allow only YHWH-worship in the land. But any place in the land that harbored rebellion against Rome, including Jerusalem and Temple, would be desolated.Flavius Josephus, The Jewish War, Preface 8: “[Vespasian] took…some of its [Galilee’s] cities by treaties, and on terms.” III:ii:4: “…the inhabitants of Sepphoris…the largest city of Galilee…received Vespasian, the Roman general, very kindly, and readily promised that they would assist him…” III:ix:8: “Now the seniors of the people [of Tiberius]…fell down before Vespasian, to supplicate his favor… Vespasian…accepted of their rights hands by way of security…[and] the citizens opened to him their gates…”]And in the midst of the week he shall cause to cease sacrifice and offering. And upon a wing/corner/extremity, appalling/desolating abominations [plural], even until the consummation decreed is poured upon the desolate. [In 70 A.D., the “midst of the week/7 years” – no mention here of the 3½ times/1260 days prophesied elsewhere in Daniel – the Romans captured the Antonia Fortress on the northwest “corner/wing” of the Temple Mount, which provided access to the Temple complex via a narrow passage. War VI:i. Jewish Temple “sacrifice and (meal) offering ended” soon after, on Tammuz 17 = July 15. Ibid., VI:ii:1. The “desolating abominations” that ensued consisted of the most savage combat between the Romans and Jews, including instances of Jewish fratricide; piles of corpses within the Temple complex; and the Jews setting fire to the Temple’s own cloisters on the corner opposite the Roman-occupied Antonia. Ibid. VI:ii-iii. Also, the Romans began bringing their idolatrous ensigns (Aquilae) into the Temple precincts, to which sacrifices were offered. VI:iv:1; vi:1. The utter desolation by fire of the Temple occurred during its capture on Ab 9/10 = August 4/5; followed by the desolation of upper Jerusalem (Zion) in early September. The last stronghold of the Jewish rebellion, Masada, fell in 73.]


Ok, now let me re-say this..
shorttribber wrote:This Specific example is Paramount in Understanding the "Confirmation of THE Covenant" and HOW it WAS and WILL BE Fulfilled. Now, many or most of you will think....I know Already what ole Shortribber is going to say but no you don't, you really don't.....this is something I've Never mentioned before.


Understanding that layers in prophecy exist is important in terms of just acknowledging what is obvious. The argument is valid that if there are layers, how are we to know what actually to expect if there can be so many fulfillments to choose from ? How then are we to Know, Absolutely any prophecy unless there is One thing Promised, Determined and Fulfilled that can be evidenced as In-errantly and Absolutely Fulfilled?
It is a good and reasonable expectation to have One Prophecy and Only One Manner of Fulfillment of it.
But God's ways, are above ours, and He Reasons in a Manner incomprehensible to our Mortal Minds.
There is no way to explain it, but to only Observe it as best we can.

There is such a great desire to hold so tenaciously to a literal interpretation of Scripture that the Words that Are Spirit and Truth simply evade us. It is important to give as much respect to any given text to not allegorically or Spiritually bend it any direction of our choosing. But we Must balance our pursuit of the literal interpretation with a far greater liberty than Modern Strict Dispensationalism is generally comfortable with.

How clearly did Jesus and Paul give us the examples and templates you might say of how to Comprehend and Communicate the letter of the Word by Expounding on the Prophets in the Spirit?

Are we not to follow their very clear example? Are we so bound to the letter that we can't SEE what God wants and desires for us to SEE, at least more Plainly than we Presently do?

I believe He does........but I think we are fearful really, fearfully of leading many astray by possibly overreaching into that area of Spiritual interpretations of many texts. That godly fear is good also, because in that fear is contained an honest respect for the truth, and the passion to not drift even slightly from it.

Now then, what we can Observe in the Historic sense of Certain Prophecy, if we will all be open about it, is variant forms of Repetition, Shadows or Layers. And not only in the Historic but also the modern days that we now live.

Got to move on to the next post....
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri May 30, 2014 8:22 pm

Actually, repentance and remission of sins is very much a part of the new testement too. Jesus said, "go and make disciples teaching them to obey all that i have commanded you". There is only one way to be saved and that is to die first. Thats the message of the cross. Jesus was our example, and now we must take up our own cross in order to follow Him. But a person would be darn lucky to stumble across that information in most churches. That one little detail.
Matthew 1:22
So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophets
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 8:37 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Actually, repentance and remission of sins is very much a part of the new testement too.

Sure is. Absolutely.
extravagantchristian wrote: There is only one way to be saved and that is to die first. Thats the message of the cross. Jesus was our example, and now we must take up our own cross in order to follow Him. But a person would be darn lucky to stumble across that information in most churches.


In deed....there are exceptions...but being Planted with the Lord is not a common theme these days....you're right.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Fri May 30, 2014 9:32 pm

now to the......
shorttribber wrote:something I've Never mentioned before.


The Confirmation of THE Covenant (Dan 9:27) is IMO the very CENTER, the Absolute CENTER of Bible prophecy.
And from that Scripture are variant Forms, Types, Shadows or Layers that proceed From the Old Testament period to it, and From the New Testament period from it.

It is as a Mirror, reflecting Back through the Old Testament all the way to the garden and God's Promise of Redemption through the SEED of the Woman. And that same Mirror reflects onward through the New Testament until God's Promise is Fully Realized of God's People, the Redeemed.

There can be Many Confirmations of anything God determines to Confirm. That is One Reason Why there are Layers, Shadows, Reflections, Types or how ever the Confirmations of Truth can be possibly described.

So if there is more than One Witness, that thing, what ever it be, Shall be........Established/Confirmed.
We could say, a prophecy that is first said, is one witness and the other is the fulfillment....and the truth is then Established/Confirmed.
That's a reasonable conclusion. but as I said, there can be well more than One, two, three or how ever many witnesses God chooses to Establish or Confirm anything he desires.

That is the case IMO, Especially when the Virtual Center of Bible Prophecy is in View, such as Daniels 70 weeks....and Even more so as the Focus of That Prophecy is Squarely on Christ and His Redemptive Work.


The example that you've presented us with William is One Portion of the Confirmation of The Covenant........more later...gotta run for now.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Mark F on Sat May 31, 2014 6:44 pm

How do you end up at 70AD? Daniel 9 says
"from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;"

that means 69 weeks are fulfilled before Messiah is cut off, Jesus was crucified + or - 30AD, how do you make the leap to 70AD adding 40 years to the prophecy?

Regardless you will have a very difficult time explaining that verse 24 is in it's completed state:
"To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy."

It is not demonstrable that these things are complete, John the apostle prophesied in 90AD on the isle of Patmos, nor can you prove to me that sin has ended etc.

Preterism in my opinion is plainly too subjective for me.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:09 am

Layers of prophecy, and why a short Trib.

To respond to shorttribber's comment about layers of prophecy --
I prefer the terms types and shadows, but I think we are talking about the same general thing. There are spiritual archetypes that repeat: for example, that of the sacrifice of a lamb at Passover. Foreshadowing archetypes of that included Isaac being offered on Moriah, and the Mosaic first Passover just prior to the redemption from Egypt. But in such cases, there is always an ultimate fulfillment: being in this case the sacrifice of Jesus, the ultimate Passover Lamb.
I do not believe, however that all prophecies have such layers/types. In the case of Daniel 9:24-27, I believe we have a one-shot prophecy. You'd have to convince me with evidence to the contrary.

By the way, I love the name shorttribber, since I believe in the likelihood of a short trib. Why? In part, because --

Scripture says the Lord will come "quickly," that is, speedily/rapidly/suddenly (Rev. 3:11; 22:5, 16, 20) -- even as he suddenly descended upon Mount Sinai.
The Great Tribulation is the period extending from the Abomination of Desolation up to the heavenly and earthly cataclysms of Matt. 24:29 = Rev. 6:12-14. It is comparable to the period of trials that the Israelites went through between the Passover, when they left Egypt "in haste," and the atmospheric and earthly disruptions -- and the shofar -- which heralded the descent of the Lord upon Sinai.
That period lasted 52 days. However, the Great Tribulation may be even shorter than in Moses' day, because "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved," Matt. 24:22. Be aware, however, that recent experience has shown us that modern military campaigns, economic collapses, and food supply and electrical system failures can overwhelm nations within days to weeks. Jesus told us “that day…will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth” (Luke 21:34-35), and a snare springs very quickly.
More about this is at http://www.ourchurch.com//member/d/dumm ... ast-Shofar
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:29 am

As to KA still insisting on only 62 weeks, not 69 --
Daniel 9:25 says (after cutting out all the extraneous history), "unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks." I'm sorry, but that seems pretty darn clear: 7 AND/plus 62, and Messiah comes.

Anyone having further doubts about Jesus' coming within 27-34 A.D. should read Handbook of Biblical Chronology: Principles of Time Reckoning in the Ancient World and Problems of Chronology, by Jack Finegan. Voluminous discussion of everything, from Roman annals to the accuracy of Josephus to the astrological data. Leaves no room for doubt.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 01, 2014 11:43 am

Mark F asked: how do you make the leap to 70AD adding 40 years to the prophecy?
40 years is the archetypal time of testing, in which God allows a people to accept or reject his instruction. The Jewish leadership, especially the Aaronic priesthood, rejected their Messiah, and were cut off after 40 years; even as were most Israelites after 40 years in the wilderness.

MF: Regardless you will have a very difficult time explaining that verse 24 is in it's completed state:

Apparently, you did not read my line-by-line explanation.

MF: Preterism in my opinion is plainly too subjective for me.

Nowhere did I or do I advocate Preterism.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:55 pm

WilliamL wrote:There are spiritual archetypes that repeat: for example, that of the sacrifice of a lamb at Passover. Foreshadowing archetypes of that included Isaac being offered on Moriah, and the Mosaic first Passover just prior to the redemption from Egypt. But in such cases, there is always an ultimate fulfillment: being in this case the sacrifice of Jesus, the ultimate Passover Lamb.

I agree...especially where you've used the term, "Ultimate Fulfillment", and another way to describe that particular fulfillment is the "Primary Fulfillment". The "Ultimate or Primary" then could be descriptive of prophetic fulfillment that achieves the Highest Advancement or Echelon of a Certain Prophetic Expectation.
WilliamL wrote:I do not believe, however that all prophecies have such layers/types. In the case of Daniel 9:24-27, I believe we have a one-shot prophecy. You'd have to convince me with evidence to the contrary.

That's true I think, that layers and types are not necessarily in every one. But, in the case of Daniels 70 weeks prophecy, I do think they exist, and I will elaborate on that as you may be expecting me to do.
WilliamL wrote:By the way, I love the name shorttribber, since I believe in the likelihood of a short trib. Why? In part, because -- Scripture says the Lord will come "quickly," that is, speedily/rapidly/suddenly (Rev. 3:11; 22:5, 16, 20) -- even as he suddenly descended upon Mount Sinai.

Thankyou, I've always been fond of the name too :grin: I like your take on the possibility of being even a Shorter Shorttibber! :banana:

I'm gonna have a look at the Shofar link

Back later

Bless ya
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 01, 2014 9:58 pm

Ok, here we go, the new stuff to share. Keep in mind too, nothing in this changes or alters the structure of the Shorttrib/Prewrath position.
These ideas can strengthen Shorttrib, but should these portions not be found accurate, it in no way weakens Shorttrib.

Looking at what Daniel was told, "seventy weeks are determined upon Thy People". We need first to examine the meaning of "Thy People". There is a clear reference to, They of whom the Promises of The Abrahamic Covenant were CONFINED. Now then, how were/are "the People" CONFINED BY The Covenant of Abraham? How were they Held Captive BY it?
Because they "Agreed/Covenanted" WITH God......TO it, at Mt. Sinai., they were bound in covenant by their acceptance to DO All that was Contained in the Law of Moses, All the While having the Seal or Token of the Righteousness OF Faith in their Flesh.
But for the vast majority of Daniels "People", that is as much as they felt the Covenant WAS, They had determined that the Circumcision of the Flesh Was the greatest Evidence of their Acceptance WITH God as "A PEOPLE".
And they were "A PEOPLE", But they were "Daniels People", It took Something Else to be "God's People".
Faith is what it took.........and a remnant among them had it.......but most of them, especially the ones most Responsible for Having it, had it not.

Now for those that utterly shut the door of their thinking to allow even the possibility that Daniel 9:27 is referencing Christ rather than antichrist, well, you'll probably care very little for anything else that is said at this point. But for those who are able to accept that Possibility, what follows could be very interesting to consider.

I wish I could type faster and put my thoughts down with greater ease, but I guess i'll just limp along and do my best to relate this information.

Anyway, there were basically two variations/varieties of "Daniels People", those that were Bound in Covenant BY Obedience and Faith in the Righteousness of Gods Law and Promises, and those who were Bound by the Condemnation of the Law of Sin and Death, Without Faith through Rebellion.

The Seventy weeks were Determined upon these two Varieties of "Daniels People", but as I said, a "Remnant" OF "Daniels People" WERE "God's People", but the vast majority of them, sadly, were not "God's People".
Nevertheless, the Text says, "Daniel's People".


I need to continue this later......getting late now.....will try to add more tomorrow....night night

.....and blessings to all
Last edited by shorttribber on Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 03, 2014 6:34 am

Continuing on from my previous post......

The example supplied to us by WilliamL is certainly a very valid look at fulfilled prophecy, but only Part of the "Object" has been Revealed in the path of that One Fulfillment/Confirmation.

What IS the "Object" of Prophecy? The Testimony of Jesus, that's the Primary Object; that Testimony, and Jesus Himself IS "The Object", the Ultimate End, Purpose and Reason of any prophecy.

The Confirmation of the Absolute Truth and Reliability of God's Promised SEED, the SEED (Christ) He Promised IN the Garden is the Object.
He is the Cornerstone of the Foundation where upon Rests the Entire Testimony and Covenant of God with Mankind. Because of the Promise of God, who can not lie, he has Provided (Jehovah Jireh) not Only One, but Multitudes of Confirmations of his Truth.

As I said above, what WilliamL has shown us is One Fulfillment/Confirmation, but not the Primary/Ultimate One IMO.
But I want to focus on what WilliamL has presented and suggest something about that Fulfillment.

But, before I do that......I would like to show you some dates and numbers.....I'm terrible at math....but this is very simple....even for me :grin:
............................2018.................................
...........................- 683.................................
..........................=1335..................................

The Dome of the Rock was Constructed in 683.........SEE what I'm saying here? If not....then....

Reborn Israel turns 70, in may 2018...........Now can you SEE what I'm saying here?

When you............SEE............the AOD.........can you SEE IT yet?

It WILL BE SEEN for What It...IS......SOON......we are only about a Shorttriber's (3.5) Distance from that now Aren't we?
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:50 am

shorttribber: "...Now for those that utterly shut the door of their thinking to allow even the possibility that Daniel 9:27 is referencing Christ rather than antichrist..."

I don't believe that it refers to either, but certainly not to an antichrist: it refers to Vespasian, most likely. HOWEVER, it may really refer to Christ. Let's go back to verse 26:

9:26b And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed.

The verb for "shall destroy," shachath, is 3rd masc. sing. Hiphil Imperfect, and can/should? literally be read, "he shall cause to destroy." The question is, who's the he? The coming ruler ... or Messiah? Some Hebrew scholars scholars say it may well be Messiah. Christ certainly condemned the Jewish priestly leadership to "desolation" -

Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Either way, however, Christ's and Daniel's prophecies of the desolation of their house was fulfilled in 70 AD.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:15 am

WilliamL wrote:I don't believe that it refers to either, but certainly not to an antichrist: it refers to Vespasian, most likely. HOWEVER, it may really refer to Christ.

We can discuss this later, as for now, it is best to follow the path of the scenario that you've suggested.
WilliamL wrote:I don't believe that it refers to either, but certainly not to an antichrist: it refers to Vespasian, most likely. HOWEVER, it may really refer to Christ. Let's go back to verse 26:

Good choice to be open in your understanding, but yes also, IMO, the he was Vespasian as a Servant or Vessel OF the ONE who's Covenant (Abrahamic Covenant) was to be partially Confirmed in Jacob (Carnal, Unbelieving Israel, Cursed Under the LAW), Not the Israel Of God (Blessed by the Righteousness of Faith).
Ps 105
9 Which COVENANT he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And CONFIRMED the same unto Jacob........ for a law,......... and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:

WilliamL wrote:The verb for "shall destroy," shachath, is 3rd masc. sing. Hiphil Imperfect, and can/should? literally be read, "he shall cause to destroy." The question is, who's the he? The coming ruler ... or Messiah? Some Hebrew scholars scholars say it may well be Messiah. Christ certainly condemned the Jewish priestly leadership to "desolation" -Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”Either way, however, Christ's and Daniel's prophecies of the desolation of their house was fulfilled in 70 AD.

Yes, Christ CONFIRMED his Covenant To Unbelieving Israel, With "Many", Yes he did, "Many of Daniels People" that Were in the Deepest Rebellion, Sin and Unbelief.

shorttribber wrote: "...Now for those that utterly shut the door of their thinking to allow even the possibility that Daniel 9:27 is referencing Christ rather than antichrist...
WilliamL wrote:"I don't believe that it refers to either, but certainly not to an antichrist: it refers to Vespasian, most likely. HOWEVER, it may really refer to Christ. Let's go back to verse 26:9:26b And the people of the ruler who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, and its end will come with a flood [of attackers]. And until the end of the war, desolations are decreed. The verb for "shall destroy," shachath, is 3rd masc. sing. Hiphil Imperfect, and can/should? literally be read, "he shall cause to destroy." The question is, who's the he? The coming ruler ... or Messiah? Some Hebrew scholars scholars say it may well be Messiah. Christ certainly condemned the Jewish priestly leadership to "desolation" -Matt. 23:29, 35-38: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees…upon you may [shall] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth… All these things shall come upon this generation. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem… Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”Either way, however, Christ's and Daniel's prophecies of the desolation of their house was fulfilled in 70 AD.


So I repeat, Yes, Christ CONFIRMED the Abrahamic Covenant, the "Mosaic Law" Portion OF The Abrahamic Covenant that "WAS ADDED BECAUSE of Unbelief", WITH Unbelieving Israel, With "Many", Yes he did, "Many of Daniels People" that Were in the Deepest Rebellion, Sin and Unbelief.
Did "He" Use Vespasian to Accomplish and Fulfill a Confirmation of His Covenant? He certainly Did, He Did indeed.
IN DEED, His WORK/ACTION/DEED, Christ's Action, Christ's Work, Christ's Deed....through Vespasian.

When Christ's Blood was "On" ("his blood be "on" us and "on" our children")the "Many" of the Rebellious and Unrepentant of "Daniel's People", He Confirmed the Law of Moses, that was Subservient and only a Part of the Abrahamic covenant.
He Confirmed, the Curse of the Law upon the Rebellious and Guilty.

He gave them the same Space to Repent (40 years) as before......but they "Would Not". Previously he gave them space to "Receive the Truth", While He was Confirming the Truth, During the Ministry of John, and himself, and they "Would Not". During the preaching of Paul, Murder of Stephen and through the remainder of the 40 year Space to Repent, He Confirms the Truth of the Law WITH, the Rebellious "Many" Further and Finally until 70ad, and That PART of the Confirmation was Completed.

This is among the most glaring examples of One of the Reasons that the Layers in prophecy Exist. Why, you may ask is this example so important?
Because it shows how Two Absolutely Different "Peoples" Identified By the Same Name or Designation can be "Called", "Daniel's People", when there was/is More than One Portion/Layer of "The Confirmation of The Covenant" Applied to Them as One People.
The Confirmation process is not Over, there is yet more Coming........soon. :banana:

Not done yet. Still more to come....
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:11 pm

shorttribber wrote: Not done yet. Still more to come....

I presume you are referring to the works of the Messiah...
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:40 pm

WilliamL wrote:shorttribber wrote: Not done yet. Still more to come....

I presume you are referring to the works of the Messiah...


That's right, but when I first typed it I meant that I was not done yet, and had more to add.

When I re-read it I saw that it could be understood as you've said.

To be understood both ways then I guess.

This being your thread too, I hope I'm not going on to much.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:45 am

shorttribber wrote: Not done yet. Still more to come....

William: I presume you are referring to the works of the Messiah...


That's right, but when I first typed it I meant that I was not done yet, and had more to add.

When I re-read it I saw that it could be understood as you've said.

To be understood both ways then I guess.

This being your thread too, I hope I'm not going on to much.

William: My humor tends to the very dry. I really try to keep it in check, but sometimes it gets out.
As long as folks keep within the thread, no worries.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Is. 44
1 Yet now hear, O........ Jacob my servant;....... and Israel, whom I have...Chosen:
2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O ..........Jacob, my servant;......... and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:
4 And they shall spring up as among the grass, as willows by the water courses.
5 One shall say, I am the LORD'S; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the LORD, and....... surname himself........ by the name of Israel.

Speaking of "Servants"

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,
9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon,............ my servant,.............. and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and......... perpetual desolations.
10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.
11 And this whole land......... shall be a desolation,........ and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

shorttribber wrote: IMO, the he was Vespasian as a Servant or Vessel OF the ONE who's Covenant (Abrahamic Covenant) was to be partially Confirmed in Jacob (Carnal, Unbelieving Israel, Cursed Under the LAW), Not the Israel Of God (Blessed by the Righteousness of Faith).
Ps 105
9 Which COVENANT he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And CONFIRMED the same unto Jacob........ for a law,......... and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:



The Function and Fulfillments of the Two Variations/TYPES of "Daniel's People".
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 22, 2014 3:28 pm

I have a slightly different take on Daniel 9.

I think the 70 weeks were fullfilled before 70AD.
If you look at what is required of the 70 weeks, the fall of Jerusalem is not among them.

Dan9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Also, the cruscifixion does not fall within the first 7 and 62 weeks as the scripture say the crucifixion is after the 7 and 62, thus not within.

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself ...

Since The crucifixion was necessary to accomplish the objectives of 9:24 it had to fall within the 70 weeks and scripture clearly states the crucifixion takes place after the first 69 weeks, not during, What is left but for the crucifixion to have occurred during the 70th week.

What then do we do with the one week in Daniel 9:27 ?
Well nothing is mentioned in that week that is needed to accomplish the objectives of Daniel 9:24. So, there is no reason to think of 9:27 as anything but a one week prophecy seperate, distinct, and apart from the 70 weeks prophecy of 9:24. And Vespasian, Titus, and the events around 70AD meet the requirements of Daniel 9:27 prophecy.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:43 pm

keithareilly wrote:I have a slightly different take on Daniel 9.

I think the 70 weeks were fullfilled before 70AD.
<snip>
What then do we do with the one week in Daniel 9:27 ?
Well nothing is mentioned in that week that is needed to accomplish the objectives of Daniel 9:24. So, there is no reason to think of 9:27 as anything but a one week prophecy seperate, distinct, and apart from the 70 weeks prophecy of 9:24. And Vespasian, Titus, and the events around 70AD meet the requirements of Daniel 9:27 prophecy.

keith


keith,

I was enjoying your logical approach, until I read your last sentence where you linked Daniel 9:27 with 70 AD.

It seems to me that you have ignored that Daniel 9:27 happens after Daniel 9:26b and that the Daniel 9:26b prophecy is still unfolding, even at this present time.

As such, it is my belief, that Daniel 9:27 is still a future event. The trouble that many people have is being able to answer the question of when it will occur. There are some who believe that there will be an imminent fulfilment within the next two to three years. Others believe that it will occur in our near future before the end of this present age and just before Jesus returns. The trouble with this understanding is that they are not able to confirm an approximate year when the end of the present age will occur when they expect Jesus to have his second advent.

I on the other hand hold to a distant future time based on Rev 20 where we are told that after the 1,000 years of being in the Bottomless pit that Satan and the four beasts, which appear to have become one beast at this time, will confirm a solemn covenant with many at that time. To me this seems to be the event that matches the Daniel 9:27 single verse prophecy the best.

So keeping this in mind we need to see the end of the Daniel 9:26b prophecy occur and then wait a further 1,000 years before the Daniel 9:27 prophecy can begin to become a reality.

Shalom

Jay Ross.

PS: - For those who are interested, this is all supported by the scriptures mentioned above. And no, I have not set any dates as to when the above events will occur in this post. I have only given an indication with respect to time as to when we can expect to see Daniel 9:27 start to unfold. Nor am I trying to be deceptive in what I have presented. It is what I believe God has been revealing to me over a prolong period of time.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:24 pm

Jay,


Interesting, but the anticedent of "he" in verse 27 is most reasonably the prince who destroys in verse 26b.
That is Vespasian/Titus. This ties verse 26b and 27 together.

I dont think 27 following 26 forces the prophecy to follow the ending of the prophecy in 26b. Instead,
I think 26 completes its thought of the big picture then more details are provided in 27.

This follows the same pattern as verse 24 through 26a the big picture is provided first, the 70 weeks, then more details about what happens during the 7, 62, and 1 weeks. First comes the big picture, then the details.
The same is true for verses 26 and 27.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 22, 2014 6:44 pm

keithareilly wrote:I dont think 27 following 26 forces the prophecy to follow the ending of the prophecy in 26b. Instead, I think 26 completes its thought of the big picture then more details are provided in 27.This follows the same pattern as verse 24 through 26a the big picture is provided first, the 70 weeks, then more details about what happens during the 7, 62, and 1 weeks. First comes the big picture, then the details.The same is true for verses 26 and 27.


Certainly an Interesting pattern.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Sun Jun 22, 2014 7:34 pm

A better grouping of Daniel 9:24-27 would look like this.

The Jews and Jerusalem's role in the crucifixion (The 70 weeks)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26a And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

The consequences to the Jews and Jerusalem for their role in the crucifixion (Vespasian, Titus, the 1 week, and more)
26b And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:44 pm

Interestingly,

The structure of 26 implies that the city and sanctuary are destroyed because the Messiah was cut off. This implies the Jews will cut off the Messiah. Verse 26, because of its structure, is a prophecy that the Jews will kill their Messiah. It does this by begging the question: "Why will the city and sanctuary be destroyed?" The only answer is because the Messiah was cut off. Thus the blame for the Messiah being cut off is laid at the feet of the city and sanctuary.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:52 pm

keithareilly wrote:Interestingly,

The structure of 26 implies that the city and sanctuary are destroyed because the Messiah was cut off. This implies the Jews will cut off the Messiah. Verse 26, because of its structure, is a prophecy that the Jews will kill their Messiah. It does this by begging the question: "Why will the city and sanctuary be destroyed?" The only answer is because the Messiah was cut off. Thus the blame for the Messiah being cut off is laid at the feet of the city and sanctuary.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.


Keith


Keith

The reason why the city and the temple was destroyed was that God had given Israel 490 years to repent of their sin of continual idolatry (Dan 9:24) and when the yearly sin sacrifice was no longer acceptable the Lord had the means for offering that sacrifice destroyed. He had the Temple torn apart stone by stone. After two ages of their idolatry worship God allowed their iniquity to be visited onto them. Jesus offered them the light yoke of repentance, but they rejected that offer and instead had to suffer the heavy yoke of God's wrath for their continual idolatrous worship, even today. When the two ages of the visitation of their iniquity upon them has run its due course, God will again tell Israel what His terms of peace with them will be and allow them to make a choice as to whether or not the nation of Israel will accept God's terms for their redemption.

Either way, Jesus had to die so that the full payment for the sin of all the peoples of the earth will be paid in full. The fact that the Jewish people were the ones that pressed for Jesus' death 2,000 years ago becomes immaterial today as it was also my sin that placed him on that cross, just as it was also your sin or Adam's sin or King David's sin, we all have had a part in placing Jesus on the cross for the redemption of mankind.

Being able to comprehend how God intends to work out all of mankind's redemption at one time when the Judgement seat is in session is just a little beyond my comprehension but I know that at the second advent that is what will happen.

I also know that the second advent is still in our distant future.

Shalom

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:06 pm

Jay,

Just to be clear, I also think Daniel 9:26b "War will continue till the end and desolations have been decreed is still ongoing. However, I do think 27 was finished in 81AD when Titus died. Why because the "he" and the "him" in verse 27 refere to their antecedent in verse 26b: the prince who destroys the city and the sanctuary. So verse 27 concluded at Titus's death.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Edited: anticedent to antecedent.
Keith
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 24, 2014 11:45 pm

keithareilly wrote:Why because the "he" and the "him" in verse 27 refere to their anticedent in verse 26b:


:award: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=56734 :award:

A great thread is old but it still is relevant,
antecedent known is big as an elephant.

The Primary Object is the Glorious Project.

Grammatical rules learned are truly gigantic,
old things that are relative lay in the Atlantic.



:snack:
:3jump:
:snack:
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:16 pm

keithareilly wrote:Jay,

Just to be clear, I also think Daniel 9:26b "War will continue till the end and desolations have been decreed is still ongoing. However, I do think 27 was finished in 81AD when Titus died. Why because the "he" and the "him" in verse 27 refere to their antecedent in verse 26b: the prince who destroys the city and the sanctuary. So verse 27 concluded at Titus's death.

Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Edited: anticedent to antecedent.
Keith


So be it Keith, we will have to have a differing understanding on this particular subject. Someday we will both know the truth.

Shalom

Jay Ross

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:18 pm

WilliamL wrote:However, the Great Tribulation may be even shorter than in Moses' day, because "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved," Matt. 24:22.


WilliamL wrote:The Great Tribulation, which follows the Abomination of Desolation, can (and I believe shall) be short.


Hi WilliamL,

You were making a very, very good case - that is until you have mentioned the aforementioned statements. What you have posted is a "CLASSIC" view of why I have abandoned the Pre-Wrath explanation of how Christ will Return.

Please let me explain........

There is a very serious flaw in interpretation of what our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned concerning the fact that "unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved" (Matthew 24:22) Most want to understand that after the AOD that the period of time that has been determined to occur - IE the "Great Tribulation" those days will be "cut short" - well this is in error - and in very serious contrast in what Scripture has Cleary presented; in that the coming Antichrist is given power & authority over the Saints for 42 months. It will be 42 MONTHIS! It will not be "cut shorter" than 42 months, or else we have a serious flaw/contradiction in Scripture.

These days will NOT be cut short for the purpose of NOT having the Great Tribulation period running it's entire course - and the fact that the Antichrist will not have ruled this entire time. Please understand this - because if this were true, then what Scripture presents concerning this matter makes no sense. What I believe that Jesus was conveying is that unless these days were allowed to exceed past 42 months on the eschatological time frame - no flesh would be saved. But the days have been "cut short" by His Devine Purpose and Plan (not to allow the AC to continue any longer) - because there will be so much deception; murder & mayhem by the Antichrist; food shortages; famines; War; ect.....that those who shall endure will only be able to make it until His Return because it has been established by His Devine Purpose; Time period; and Plan.

I'm not pretending to be an expert...but what I have presented should be taken into consideration. I would really love it if someone can prove me wrong - because I have looked at the Pre-Wrath view, which is closer to the Post Tribulation Rapture view that I currently hold; and absolutely is in harmony with Scripture more than any other view that I've studied.

Thanks to you all!
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:57 pm

Mr Baldy wrote: What I believe that Jesus was conveying is that unless these days were allowed to exceed past 42 months on the eschatological time frame - no flesh would be saved. But the days have been "cut short" by His Devine Purpose and Plan (not to allow the AC to continue any longer)


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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:05 pm

When Jesus said this....
Mth 24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"Those Days" he referenced were of Daniel 12.

Looking at the end of Daniel 12 we find a total of 1335 of "Those Days".

So, a gathering that occurs anytime After 1260 days but Before 1335 days would Cause "Those Days" to be Shortened for the Elect.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:52 am

To Mark and Jay: Discussions about grace are great, but way off-topic for this site, please.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:55 am

keithareilly wrote on Sun Jun 22, 2014 4:28 pm:
If you look at what is required of the 70 weeks, the fall of Jerusalem is not among them.

Also, the crucifixion does not fall within the first 7 and 62 weeks as the scripture say the crucifixion is after the 7 and 62, thus not within.

My reply: To answer your first point, I quote from my original post:
Dan. 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city… to finish the transgression/peshah…
[The word means and refers to the revolt/rebellion/apostasy of the priesthood, the one originally spoken of in Daniel 8:12, 13, 23. This took place when Antiochus Epiphanes, after being bribed, removed the pious Onias III from the high priesthood and installed his apostatizing brother Jason; latter 170s B.C. 1 Macc. 2:15 calls the subsequent debasement of the priesthood and Temple “the apostasy” [apostasian]. Similar corruptions of the priesthood, including bribes, took place during the time of Roman rule. Jesus condemned it, and prophesied the desolation of the religious establishment and destruction of Jerusalem and Temple because of it. Matt. 23, esp. vs. 35-39.]

– so therefore, the destruction of Jerusalem “the holy city” was implicit in the prophecy “to finish the transgression/apostasy.” Jesus clearly prophesied this.

As to your second point: the word translated as “after” in verse 26 is achar, Strong's H310: “properly, the hind part; generally used as an adverb or conjunction: after...”
This achar has a yod tacked on -- achary -- meaning “of”: so the literal translation is most likely “the hind part of” the 7 + 62 weeks. Which is to say: “at the tail end of, or immediately after, this period concludes.” The construction does not allow for an indeterminate period afterward.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:23 pm

WilliamL wrote:However, the Great Tribulation may be even shorter than in Moses' day, because "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved," Matt. 24:22.
WilliamL wrote:The Great Tribulation, which follows the Abomination of Desolation, can (and I believe shall) be short.

Mr Baldy wrote:

Hi WilliamL,
You were making a very, very good case - that is until you have mentioned the aforementioned statements. What you have posted is a "CLASSIC" view of why I have abandoned the Pre-Wrath explanation of how Christ will Return.

There is a very serious flaw in interpretation of what our Lord Jesus Christ mentioned concerning the fact that "unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved" (Matthew 24:22) Most want to understand that after the AOD that the period of time that has been determined to occur - IE the "Great Tribulation" those days will be "cut short" - well this is in error - and in very serious contrast in what Scripture has Cleary presented; in that the coming Antichrist is given power & authority over the Saints for 42 months. ... It will not be "cut shorter" than 42 months...

These days will NOT be cut short for the purpose of NOT having the Great Tribulation period running it's entire course...
I would really love it if someone can prove me wrong - because I have looked at the Pre-Wrath view, which is closer to the Post Tribulation Rapture view that I currently hold; and absolutely is in harmony with Scripture more than any other view that I've studied.

My Reply: This is a common mis-perception, and the answer is remarkably simple. This view confounds two completely different events :
1) The Great Tribulation is the period of trial/testing of the Church, prior to the Rapture. The Rapture takes place after the 6th Seal is opened. The Great Tribulation has NO set time given for it in Scripture. None.
2) "The time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7) is the 42 months/1260 days/3-1/2 times of Dan. 7:25 and Rev. 13:5. That period ends at the 7th Trumpet. It is the trial/testing of the people of Israel. It IS specifically timed.

To copy what I wrote on RAPTURE & SECOND COMING: Two very different types of coming--
Everything after Rev. 6:16-17 is post-trib. [and in-wrath]
Everything before it is pre-wrath.
Everything before Rev. 6:1 is pre-trib.
Everything from Rev. 6:1 to 6:16 is mid-trib.; or, in-trib if you prefer.
That about sums it up. It is pretty simple when you get right down to it. Must be why it is such a stumbling block.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:32 pm

shorttribber wrote on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:58 pm
Ok, here we go, the new stuff to share. Keep in mind too, nothing in this changes or alters the structure of the Shorttrib/Prewrath position. These ideas can strengthen Shorttrib, but should these portions not be found accurate, it in no way weakens Shorttrib.

My reply: Since we seem to be in the area, I have been long meaning to ask (as you earlier asked me): what is your understanding of a short [great] trib [-ulation]? I should hasten to add, “in summary, please.” [My answer was on Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:09 pm, in case anyone wants to compare.]
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:09 pm

WilliamL wrote:To Mark and Jay: Discussions about grace are great, but way off-topic for this site, please.


Hi WilliamL,

I expect that you meant to say, this thread?

I'll go ahead and split the threads. I hope you realize that I have a reason for asking these questions, though it occurred within the context of this topic.

Jay, Please see the new thread. I wish to receive an answer, please.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:15 pm

WilliamL wrote:My Reply: This is a common mis-perception, and the answer is remarkably simple. This view confounds two completely different events : 1) The Great Tribulation is the period of trial/testing of the Church, prior to the Rapture. The Rapture takes place after the 6th Seal is opened. The Great Tribulation has NO set time given for it in Scripture. None.2) "The time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7) is the 42 months/1260 days/3-1/2 times of Dan. 7:25 and Rev. 13:5. That period ends at the 7th Trumpet. It is the trial/testing of the people of Israel. It IS specifically timed.


WilliamL.....you have given the aforementioned information.......

Now Sir, Let's see what Jesus Himself has to say:

The Glorious Return - Matthew 24:29-31

"29) “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30) And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31) And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

As you have mentioned, the Great Tribulation has no set time period - but as you can clearly see that Jesus Himself plainly states that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" - He will Return and at His Return the angels with a great trumpet will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

This happens at His Return, and not prior.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby keithareilly on Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:56 pm

WilliamL,

While Daniel 9:24 may imply the city and Sanctuary will be destroyed as punishment for Jews finishing the transgression, its destruction is not required to complete the goals of the prophecy stated in 9:24. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple need not occur during the 70 weeks. Yes it was prophesied, but it was not prophesied to occur during the 70 weeks. First, finish the transgression (the 70 weeks); Later, the punishment for doing so.

The 70 weeks is the time to finish the transgression. Thus culminated in the Crucifixion of Christ during the 70th week. The punishment for finishing the transgression, i.e. crucifying Christ, came after the 70 weeks expired.

I do not believe there is a gap in the 70 weeks. The 70 weeks are consecutive and the last week is the one that followed the 69th week. The 70th week is the week Christ was Crucified. Neither do I believe that week mentioned in Daniel 9:27 is one of the 70 weeks and feel no compunction to make the destruction of Jerusalem fit into the seventy weeks. Either in 70 AD or some time in the future.

Let me say this again.

The 70th week was the week Christ was Crucified. Not during the first 69 but after the first 69, during the 70th. This is consistent with both the scriptures and what you have said. No Gap in the 70 weeks; agreed. The one week in Daniel 9:27 is not the 70th week nor any of the 70; it is a separate and distinct prophecy about the consequences of what was done during the 70 weeks.

The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple as reported in verse 26b and the one week prophecy in verse 27 is a separate prophecy from the 70 weeks prophecy. Yes, they are tied together as the 70 weeks prophecy is about the time allotted to finish the transgression and verse 26b and 27 are about punishment for finishing the transgression.

First came the 70 weeks allowing time to finish the transgression; then, once the 70 weeks were elapsed, came the time of prophesied punishment.

Two prophecies, two time periods:
1) 70 weeks to finish the transgression, culminating in the crucifixion during the 70th week,
2) a very long time of punishment which starts with the one week in Daniel 9:27, the destruction of the temple and the city, then dispersia.

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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:32 pm

WilliamL wrote:shorttribber wrote on Sun Jun 01, 2014 10:58 pm
Ok, here we go, the new stuff to share. Keep in mind too, nothing in this changes or alters the structure of the Shorttrib/Prewrath position. These ideas can strengthen Shorttrib, but should these portions not be found accurate, it in no way weakens Shorttrib.
My reply: Since we seem to be in the area, I have been long meaning to ask (as you earlier asked me): what is your understanding of a short [great] trib [-ulation]? I should hasten to add, “in summary, please.” [My answer was on Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:09 pm, in case anyone wants to compare.]


It's just that I understand that there is only 3.5 years future Tribulation (Great Tribulation) rather than the 7 year idea.
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:26 pm

ST: It's just that I understand that there is only 3.5 years future Tribulation (Great Tribulation) rather than the 7 year idea.

To paraphrase your tagline: "Find 3.5 years plainly stated in the Bible as the length of the Great Tribulation." :mrgreen:
WilliamL
 
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Re: Daniel 9:24-27’s 70th Week: When Fulfilled?

Postby WilliamL on Sun Jun 29, 2014 3:35 pm

Mr Baldy: As you [William] have mentioned, the Great Tribulation has no set time period - but as you can clearly see that Jesus Himself plainly states that "immediately after the tribulation of those days" - He will Return and at His Return the angels with a great trumpet will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

This happens at His Return, and not prior.

Reply: Absolutely, I agree. When I say "set time period," the emphasis is on TIME; that is, number of days or years. We are not told how many days it will be. We ARE told the events that will take place WITHIN however many unnamed days of Great Tribulation it will be. And, what event will end that period. Agreed.
WilliamL
 
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