Horses,Chariots and Riders.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:51 am

Spreading Salt wrote:
So, again, I ask, would God send out the Pope, or the anti-Christ, as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


I don't think we're talking about an individual here. It's the spirit of conquering. It can spread through multiple physical places. Throughout the earth. Global spiritual reality, such as a specific religious belief: catholicism, or islam.

Whichever spirit being referenced, it is a global norm or practice. :2cents: SS


:a3: thanx for the additional support on this idea SS :grin:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:21 am

shorttribber wrote:
Spreading Salt wrote:
So, again, I ask, would God send out the Pope, or the anti-Christ, as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


I don't think we're talking about an individual here. It's the spirit of conquering. It can spread through multiple physical places. Throughout the earth. Global spiritual reality, such as a specific religious belief: catholicism, or islam.

Whichever spirit being referenced, it is a global norm or practice. :2cents: SS


:a3: thanx for the additional support on this idea SS :grin:


Shorttribber and Spreading Salt,

The question remains, would God send out a conquering spirit as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 17, 2014 8:42 am

watching wrote:The question remains, would God send out a conquering spirit as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


Yes Watching,
But not to Ultimately and Absolutely Prevail....this antichrist spirit Prevails no more than the antichrist Loser Overcomes the saints in the Final End.
Antichrist Can Overcome in a limited sense, but not Ultimately......he Can Overcome or Prevail in the Temporal sense, but not in the Eternal sense.

The same word is used in Rev chap11 and chap 13, where it is recorded that the Loser antichrist Will Overcome/Prevail....The Saints.
So this word must be comprehended in a Limited sense.

And, although a different word is used in Daniel 7, the meaning is the same.

By the way, I didn't know about the Romans 11 and Rev 11 parallel, very neat....gotta look closer at that.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Spreading Salt on Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:56 pm

Watching asked:
Shorttribber and Spreading Salt,

The question remains, would God send out a conquering spirit as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


My answer is yes.

Please see the following verses:

Isaiah 45
English Standard Version (ESV)
….
I call you by your name,
I name you, though you do not know me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other,
besides me there is no God;
I equip you, though you do not know me,
6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun
and from the west, that there is none besides me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form light and create darkness,
I make well-being and create calamity,
I am the LORD, who does all these things.
8 “Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
9 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
10 Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”
11 Thus says the LORD,
the Holy One of Israel, and the one who formed him:
“Ask me of things to come;
will you command me concerning my children and the work of my hands?[b]
12 I made the earth
and created man on it;
it was my hands that stretched out the heavens,
and I commanded all their host.
13 I have stirred him up in righteousness,
and I will make all his ways level;
he shall build my city
and set my exiles free,
not for price or reward,”
says the LORD of hosts.


Also see:


Romans 9
English Standard Version (ESV)
God's Sovereign Choice
…12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”


Personally, I wouldn't put anything past God. His purpose is His purpose and it will ultimately bring Him glory. Some are chamber pots, some are beautiful mantel ornaments. All for His purpose, whether spiritual or physical.

He even put bad spirits on people. Remember how King Saul would chuck his spear at little old David while he was playing his instrument?

1 Samuel 18 ESV

Saul's Jealousy of David

6 As they were coming home, when David returned from striking down the Philistine, the women came out of all the cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet King Saul, with tambourines, with songs of joy, and with musical instruments.[a] 7 And the women sang to one another as they celebrated,

“Saul has struck down his thousands,
and David his ten thousands.”

8 And Saul was very angry, and this saying displeased him. He said, “They have ascribed to David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed thousands, and what more can he have but the kingdom?” 9 And Saul eyed David from that day on.

10 The next day a harmful spirit from God rushed upon Saul, and he raved within his house while David was playing the lyre, as he did day by day. Saul had his spear in his hand. 11 And Saul hurled the spear, for he thought, “I will pin David to the wall.” But David evaded him twice.


God orchestrates everything for His purposes and timing.

SS :a2:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:46 pm

shorttribber wrote:Hi watching :banana:

The flying scroll is associated with the scroll in Rev i think.......they are related in a similar way with the horses/chariots/riders.

That scroll is opened later as we see written in the Revelation of Christ.


Hi ST, I think I can give some clarification on the flying scroll. I left off reading through the thread to write this. Someone may have already beat me to it, but here goes.

I do think you are right that the flying scroll is related to Revelation because it will be used to track down people and keep tabs on them. It may be implemented now or it will be soon. I think when the world goes cashless and everyone but the saints have a mark.

The flying scroll and what it is was brought to my attention when I bought this book, I think it is called 'Today's Technology in Bible Prophecy', and the author's name is Charles W. Miller. He said the F S is a satellite. The dimensions are given and fit it to the 'T'.

Watching mentioned that it has evil intentions, which the Lord tells us in verse three, because it appears to oppress people. Magnify what we see with cameras located at intersections are over the U S. This will be a lot worse.
Lets give the verses here

Zechariah 5:1-4
Then I turned and raised my eyes, and saw there a flying scroll. 2 And he said to me, "What do you see?" So I answered,, "I see a flying scroll. It's length is twenty cubits and its width ten cubits." 3 Then he said to me "This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth: 'Every thief shall be expelled,' according to this side of the scroll; and, 'Every perjurer shall be expelled,' according to that side of it." 4 "I will send out the curse," says the Lord of hosts; "It shall enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name, it shall remain in the midst of his house and consume it, with its timber and stones."


I'm guessing that the satellite may be able to read RFID codes to know if someone stole something. It also may be able to work in conjunction with computers that track conversations on the phone since it states that it will come into the houses. It will no doubt be evil. Jesus was hung between two thieves, and we know the world will hate us and call us evil.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:27 pm

Hi SCB,
Guess it is a mysterious thing that flying scroll, but ya know what,i think watching might just have nailed this one down.
It is very interesting to look into the video she's posted the link about.

Could turn out to be used both ways, with that cylinder shape and all......you could be on to something too.

say Watching, why do you supose the same word is used for "fire" and "woman"?

Just doesn't make any sense to me......any thoughts at all?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:36 am

"The Shiite clerical establishment in Iran believes that at the end of times, the 12th Imam, Mahdi, a ninth century prophet, will reappear with Jesus Christ at his side, kill all the infidels and............ raise the flag............ of Islam in all................ four corners............... of the world."

this quote is from the following new thread......in the whatever (almost) section

Leading Iranian ayatollah: Islamic messiah ‘will behead West

New postby st louis steve on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:18 am

Leading Iranian ayatollah: Islamic messiah ‘will behead Western leaders’

shorttribber wrote:The Word "heavenS" is used, rather than "Heaven". And the Plain text simply says, "which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth".It says nothing of going to "patrol the earth"(see edit below). The devil is the Prince and Power of the Air(heavens) And this example in Job...6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.This is very close to the idea that is expressed in Zech the Prince and Power and spirits of like kind of the Air/heavens....can come and Go Forth from standing before God..........Allowed to Go Forth, Not Commanded or Ordered BY God to Go Forth.................they Just..............Go Forth thru the Earth......To the Four Winds/throughout the earth.Effecting every Fallen being is their Destructive nature...............And is Allowed BY God to Serve His End Purpose.


Resurrection Torchlight wrote:As for the pale green representing antichrist and idolatry, I just can't see where you get that at all, Islam has a green flag? What does that have to do with it? I don't mean to sound trite but that is a stretch at least to me. You are interpreting scripture in light of what is going on in the world today ascribing meaning to things that really aren't there in scripture.


"The Shiite clerical establishment in Iran believes that at the end of times, the 12th Imam, Mahdi, a ninth century prophet, will reappear with Jesus Christ at his side, kill all the infidels and............ raise the flag............ of Islam in all................ four corners............... of the world."
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:44 pm

shorttribber wrote:say Watching, why do you supose the same word is used for "fire" and "woman"?


I guess it's just like in English we have some words that are spelled the exact same way, but have completely different meanings.

Here are some examples from the following website:

http://www.spellingcity.com/multiple-meaning-words.html

"Scale the fish completely before weighing it on the scale."

"I drove down the windy road on a windy day."

"You may see a rainbow in May."

"I sent my résumé hoping to find a job and resume working."

"I like to run" (verb) vs. "I like to go for a run" (noun)
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:40 pm

Shucks! I thought there would be more to it than that Watching...oh well :alrighty:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Sanderson on Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:48 pm

Hi Watching,

watching wrote:Here is how Revelation 6:2 reads in the Greek:

6:2 καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος λευκός καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ ἔχων τόξον καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ στέφανος καὶ ἐξῆλθεν νικῶν καὶ ἵνα νικήσῃ

6:2 καὶ (and) εἶδον (I saw) καὶ (and) ἰδού (behold), ἵππος (horse) λευκός (white) καὶ (and) ὁ (the) καθήμενος (the one sitting) ἐπ᾽ (on) αὐτῷ (it) ἔχων (having) τόξον (a bow) καὶ (and) ἐδόθη (was given) αὐτῷ (him) στέφανος (a victor's wreath) καὶ (and) ἐξῆλθεν (he came forth) νικῶν (having overcome) καὶ (and) ἵνα (that he might) νικήσῃ (overcome)


In the paragraph above you have "νικῶν (having overcome)" and "νικήσῃ (overcome)". Now I have no language skills but these seem to me to be different words. At the BLB link you gave for "overcome" they have the same Strong's number and definition for both uses in the verse. Can you offer any clarification on why one is rendered "having overcome" and the other "overcome"?

Have you done any study on the word "bow" used in the verse. It is used only once in the NT, but I know it is used in the LXX OT but it is beyond me to chase it down to any meaningful understanding.


watching wrote:And I saw and behold a white horse and the one sitting on it having a bow and he was given a victor's wreath and he came forth having overcome and that he might overcome (in other words TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL).
emphasis added mine


Interesting that when I read the verse written out like this, I get no feeling or connotation of the rider/horse being evil from the verse.

The rider is given a victor's wreath so he has already "won" something by having overcome, and will continue to overcome. This has sent my thinking down a different rabbit trail.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:31 am

Sanderson wrote:The rider is given a victor's wreath so he has already "won" something by having overcome, and will continue to overcome. This has sent my thinking down a different rabbit trail.


It's interesting also that the Political Support Given the Pope/Papacy was accomplished by Constantine, the "First" Christian Roman Emperor......He Would have certainly worn a Roman "Victors Wreath".
It's very interesting to me that During the time of Constantine and continuing with his sons, who along with the Roman Papacy, Politically and False Religiously, Nearly Destroyed the True Saints of God during their days.

For nearly 70 years the Foundational Doctrine of the Deity of Christ, by the Spirit of Antichrist AMONG the Arians during the fourth century.......in a Limited Sense......Overcame the True Saints of God.
Constantine Himself and the Roman Pope was not Directly Responsible for the brutality against the True Saints by the Arians......thus the Bow without any Arrows.
The Roman Papacy AT THE TIME of Constantine had not Actually "Departed from the Faith, once delivered to the Saints"........thus the White Horse.......They...the...Roman Papacy Bishops BECAME Self Righteous, and SelfImportant/Self Worthy, not too greatly distanced from THAT TIME.
They THEN began their "Departure from the Faith" (See Geneva Bible Notes) and took the "Mantel" of the Spirit of Idolatry and Antichrist upon them, as it is to this day we live.

Sanderson wrote:Interesting that when I read the verse written out like this, I get no feeling or connotation of the rider/horse being evil from the verse.


So you see, the Horse and Rider did not at first Start out Evil.....but the Spirit of Self-righteousness and Self-worth has ALWAYS BEEN, and is today, Among the most Destructive Spirits Among the Fourwinds of Mankind.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:44 am

Sanderson wrote:In the paragraph above you have "νικῶν (having overcome)" and "νικήσῃ (overcome)". Now I have no language skills but these seem to me to be different words. At the BLB link you gave for "overcome" they have the same Strong's number and definition for both uses in the verse. Can you offer any clarification on why one is rendered "having overcome" and the other "overcome"?


Hi Sanderson,

In Greek, as in many other languages, verbs are conjugated. So, the ending is different based on how the root word is parsed. The root word in this case is νικάω. (This is actually in the first person singular, meaning "I win" or "I overcome.")
See link for the root word here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3528&t=KJV

If you look at the interlinear for the verse Revelation 6:2, it shows you how this verb is parsed in each instance.
Here is the link:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=6&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1173002

All you need to do, is click on where it says "parse" and it will show you how the word was parsed, and explain it.
For example, in the first instance the root word νικάω was parsed as νικῶν. This is in the present active participle. Participles end in "-ing." So, it can either be translated as "winning" or "having won."
In the second instance the word νικῶν was parsed as aorist active subjunctive. Again, if you click on where it says parse, it explains what that means. Aorist has no regard to past, present, future. It's in the active voice, and the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood expresses potentiality or possibility. So, it would be translated as "so that he might win," or "in order to win."

To further clarify and confirm, how the verb should be express in English, I also use the following website.

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/

All you need to do is copy and paste the root word and key it in, and it gives you all the different parsing information.
See below:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=NIKA%2FW

It might be a little hard to find the exact form, if you're not familiar with the language. But you just need to scroll through until you find the particular forms you are looking for.

νικῶν νῖκος or νίκη or νικάω νικ(ε)·ων; νικ·ων; νικ(α)·ο[υ]ν[τ], νικ(α)·ο[υ]ν[τ]·^ (neu) gen pl; (fem) gen pl; pres act ptcp mas voc sg or pres act ptcp neu nom|acc|voc sg, pres act ptcp mas nom sg victories (gen); while BE-ing-VICTORIOUS-(OVER) (nom, nom|acc|voc, voc) 1Jn 5:5, Rv 2:11, Rv 2:26, Rv 3:5, Rv 3:12, Rv 3:21, Rv 6:2, Rv 21:7


νικήσῃ νικάω νικη·σῃ fut mp ind 2nd sg or 1aor act sub 3rd sg or 1aor mp sub 2nd sg you(sg)-will-be-BE-ed-VICTORIOUS-(OVER), he/she/it-should-BE-VICTORIOUS-(OVER), you(sg)-should-be-BE-ed-VICTORIOUS-(OVER) Lk 11:22, Rv 6:2





Sanderson wrote:Have you done any study on the word "bow" used in the verse. It is used only once in the NT, but I know it is used in the LXX OT but it is beyond me to chase it down to any meaningful understanding.


Yes, I have. You can use the same website to see it's uses in the Old Testament. See link below:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.ph ... CE%BD&i=on

Basically, it can refer to about as many things as "bow" would refer to in English. (It is basically a shape). It can also refer to a rainbow. I have noticed that in both the Greek and Hebrew, the word "rainbow" is generally not preceded with the word "rain." It is just referred to simply as "bow." See example below:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=LXX&range=Gn9:16&lemma=%CF%84%E1%BD%B9%CE%BE%CE%BF%CE%BD&i=on

CATSS LXX World English Bible‎ / Wiki English Translation‏
Gn 9:16 καὶ ἔσται τὸ τόξον μου ἐν τῇ νεφέλῃ καὶ ὄψομαι τοῦ μνησθῆναι διαθήκην αἰώνιον ἀνὰ μέσον ἐμοῦ καὶ ἀνὰ μέσον πάσης ψυχῆς ζώσης ἐν πάσῃ σαρκί ἥ ἐστιν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
Gn 9:16 The rainbow will be in the cloud. I will look at it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth.”


Keep in mind, I'm not saying that it is necessarily referring to a rainbow. I'm just saying that the word "bow" can mean rainbow, as well as a weapon, among other things. But even if it is referring to a weapon, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is being used by someone evil. In the final battle, both sides will apparently be using weapons.

See example below:

Isaiah 5:25-30

King James Version (KJV)

25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

26 And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:

27 None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:

28 Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind:

29 Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it.

30 And in that day they shall roar against them like the roaring of the sea: and if one look unto the land, behold darkness and sorrow, and the light is darkened in the heavens thereof.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Sanderson on Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:37 pm

Thanks watching, for providing the additional info.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:02 pm

You're welcome, Sanderson.

I just noticed I had put in the wrong link for the word "bow" in the LXX. I meant to put in the following link:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=TOXON
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:45 am

This is interesting, about the "Victors Wreath" and the "Roman Standard' during Constantine's reign.

Christian accounts of Constantine's adoption of the Chi-Rho

Missorium depicting Emperor Constantine's son Constantius II accompanied by a guardsman with the Chi-Rho depicted on his shield.
According to Lactantius,[4] a Latin historian of North African origins saved from poverty by the patronage of Emperor Constantine I (r. 306–337) as tutor to his son Crispus, Constantine had dreamt of being ordered to put a "heavenly divine symbol" (Latin: coeleste signum dei) on the shields of his soldiers. The description of the actual symbol chosen by Emperor Constantine the next morning, as reported by Lactantius, is not very clear: it closely resembles a Chi-Rho or a staurogram, a similar Christian symbol. That very day Constantine's army fought the forces of Maxentius and won the Battle of the Milvian Bridge (312), outside Rome.

Emperor Constantine's labarum, a standard incorporating the wreathed Chi-Rho, from an antique silver medal.
Writing in Greek, Eusebius of Caesarea (died in 339), the bishop who wrote the first surviving general history of the early Christian churches, gave two different accounts of the events. In his church history, written shortly after the battle, when Eusebius didn't yet have any contact with Constantine, he doesn't mention any dream or vision, but compares the defeat of Maxentius (drowned in the Tiber) to that of the biblical pharaoh and credits Constantine's victory to divine protection.

In a memoir of the Roman emperor that Eusebius wrote after Constantine's death (On the Life of Constantine, circa 337–339), a miraculous appearance came in Gaul long before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge. In this later version, the Roman emperor had been pondering the misfortunes that befall commanders that invoke the help of many different gods, and decided to seek divine aid in the forthcoming battle from the One God. At noon, Constantine saw a cross of light imposed over the sun. Attached to it, in Greek characters, was the saying "Τούτῳ Νίκα!".[5] Not only Constantine, but the whole army saw the miracle. That night, Christ appeared to the Roman emperor in a dream and told him to make a replica of the sign he had seen in the sky, which would be a sure defence in battle.

Eusebius wrote in the Vita that Constantine himself had told him this story "and confirmed it with oaths" late in life "when I was deemed worthy of his acquaintance and company." "Indeed", says Eusebius, "had anyone else told this story, it would not have been easy to accept it."

Eusebius also left a description of the labarum, the military standard which incorporated the Chi-Rho sign, used by Emperor Constantine in his later wars against Licinius.

The use of a wreath around the Chi-Rho symbolizes the victory of the Resurrection over death, and is an early visual representation of the connection between the Crucifixion of Jesus and his triumphal resurrection, as seen in the 4th century sarcophagus of Domitilla in Rome. Here, in the wreathed Chi-Rho the death and resurrection of Christ are shown as inseparable, and the Resurrection is not merely a happy ending tucked at the end of the life of Christ on Earth. Given the use of similar symbols on the Roman standard, this depiction also conveyed another victory, namely that of the Christian faith: the Roman soldiers who had once arrested Jesus and marched him to Calvary now walked under the banner of a resurrected Christ.

*************just added last part in********edited******
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:53 am

Reposting this...it should be read and considered along with my above post.....

It's interesting also that the Political Support Given the Pope/Papacy was accomplished by Constantine, the "First" Christian Roman Emperor......He Would have certainly worn a Roman "Victors Wreath".
It's very interesting to me that During the time of Constantine and continuing with his sons, who along with the Roman Papacy, Politically and False Religiously, Nearly Destroyed the True Saints of God during their days.

For nearly 70 years the Foundational Doctrine of the Deity of Christ, by the Spirit of Antichrist AMONG the Arians during the fourth century.......in a Limited Sense......Overcame the True Saints of God.
Constantine Himself and the Roman Pope was not Directly Responsible for the brutality against the True Saints by the Arians......thus the Bow without any Arrows.
The Roman Papacy AT THE TIME of Constantine had not Actually "Departed from the Faith, once delivered to the Saints"........thus the White Horse.......They...the...Roman Papacy Bishops BECAME Self Righteous, and SelfImportant/Self Worthy, not too greatly distanced from THAT TIME.
They THEN began their "Departure from the Faith" (See Geneva Bible Notes) and took the "Mantel" of the Spirit of Idolatry and Antichrist upon them, as it is to this day we live.

Sanderson wrote:
Interesting that when I read the verse written out like this, I get no feeling or connotation of the rider/horse being evil from the verse.

Shorttribber then answered and wrote wrote:
So you see, the Horse and Rider did not at first Start out Evil.....but the Spirit of Self-righteousness and Self-worth has ALWAYS BEEN, and is today, Among the most Destructive Spirits Among the Fourwinds of Mankind.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:55 pm

I don't think the Papacy back then, and Constantine started out in righteousness. I see them as being in a bind because they could not squash Christianity even by putting Christians to death. I could see where they may have been impressed by their commitment to their faith when facing death, and thus may have wanted their army to have the same kind of courage. I believe Constantine (not with his knowing), and the devil worked up a 'new' religion based on some of the Christian's beliefs. Only thing, he was never converted to the faith.

This is my take on it, does history contradict this? I don't know the true history of this man. Even if it says that he was converted because this was his own personal testimony, I know of many times when I heard Catholics and others say with confidence that they were born again, when I knew they were not.

It takes a proud man to take some of Christianity and mix it with pagan celebrations and call it Christian. He brought no fruits to his water baptism so to speak. So I see him and others at that time starting out in self righteousness.

I may be wrong on this, it could be that he did start out somewhat right because thats how messed up the church was already at that time, in that it was not much of a leap to bring in pagan festivals. Just part of the slow falling away.



I'm coming to this late ST, but I'd like to add something to the conversation about the four horsemen.

I shared with you in a personal message about this, but gave no details or explanation.
In Rev ch 4 John saw a door open and was taking up in the spirit. He saw a throne and Him who sat on it. We see his description of the rainbow around the throne and he sees the 24 elders and their thrones. He hears lightnings and thunderings with seven lamps of fire burning before the throne. He sees the sea of glass before the throne, and it is in verse seven that I want to draw attention to.

emphasis mine
Rev 4:6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.

Rev 4:7 The FIRST living creature was like a lion, the SECOND living creature like a calf, the THIRD living creature had a face like a man, and the FOURTH living creature was like a flying eagle.

Rev 4:8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!"


I believe these four creatures are the four spirits that go out from standing before God.

There is a correlation between the four creatures of Rev 4 and the four horsemen in Rev 6.

emphasis mine
Rev 6:1 Now when I saw when the Lamb opened ONE of the seals; and I heard ONE of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He opened the SECOND seal, I heard the SECOND living creature saying, "Come and see." Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should oil one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 When He opened the THIRD seal, I heard the THIRD living creature say "Come and see."
Rev 6:6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
Rev 6:7 When He opened the FOURTH seal, I heard the voice of the FOURTH living creature saying "Come and see."
Rev 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.


The first seal or the first rider is paired with the first creature. What can this mean? To me it means the first rider is Jesus Christ. I come to this for a couple of reasons. One, because the first creature has the face of a lion. We all know how Jesus is referred to the Lion of the tribe of Judah. The white horse represents the righteousness of the rider.

He goes forth conquering and to conquer. He is building His kingdom, and is a mighty leader. It is the first seal, and his having conquered took place on Calvary, Jesus saying, "It is finished." And He goes forth conquering. His kingdom is ever expanding with Him and His servants bringing more and more people into it.

Also the rainbow represents the same kind of thing John saw around the throne of God.

FIRST SEAL: JESUS CHRIST

The second seal is tied to the second creature. The second creature has the face of a calf. What can this mean?
To me it represents religion and how in the name of religion many many people were killed since the time of Jesus Christ's coming. Calves were used in sacrificial offerings in the Jews religion, and the blood that was spilled during these observances, and the blood spilled in the many wars represent the red horse.

In WWII, six million Jews were gassed to death. Hitler hated the Jews and one of the reasons for his conquest was to rid the world of them. We know about the Spanish Inquisition, The Ottoman Empire, etc.

SECOND SEAL: RELIGION

The third seal is a puzzle to me and I can't find anything that makes complete sense to me. We do see that the third creature has the face of a man. To me this could be the anti-christ. He has a pair of balances in his hands. This represents justice or fairness as in our blind justice holding a scale in his/her hands (justice is blind). The Justice is wearing black and the rider of the third horse is black. The anti-christ is coming to bring hope and stability to a chaotic world. He will no doubt be seen as a savior and one who has the answers.

The decree that comes forth about the wheat and barley is coming from God the Father or Jesus Christ. We know this because it says so in verse 6, the voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying…….. Also stating "do not harm the oil and the wine." No doubt the oil and the wine represent in one sense, actual oil and wine, but does it have another meaning? If it means do not hurt the remnant church or the nation of Israel, that is a little confusing to me.

This would be 'the wine' representing the church, i.e. 'new wine', and 'the oil' representing Israel, i.e. the anointed One coming from them. However, we know many Saints will be killed and some Jews I think will be killed. Many will escape to the wilderness in Petra. (this is what I have been taught)

I'm going to say that the third seal is God the Father and that He is issuing decrees for the sake of His people in a very chaotic time of anarchy. Anarchy represents black, and it will be a dark time during the great tribulation when these decrees come forth. In Joel it says the day of the Lord will be …. Joel ch 2:2 a day of darkness and gloominess,a day of clouds and thick darkness (black), like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come great and strong, the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generations.

So I will say that the third seal or rider is GOD the Father.

THIRD SEAL: GOD

The fourth seal or rider to me represents the destruction of war; devastation. The fourth creature has the face of an eagle. Eagles eat dead things. in the bible it says, "where the corpse is, there the eagles shall be gathered together." Jesus said this in Matt 24:28. This is saying that we won't have a problem finding Jesus when we are raptured, (which has nothing to do with the fourth seal, just clarifying that eagles eat dead stuff).

There are many places also where it says about the birds coming to a feast of kings and men and armies. He calls it a great feast.

The fourth part being killed by sword, by famine, by death, and by the beasts of the earth. The fourth rider is riding a pale horse which represents death, probably such as bodies having lost a lot of blood. The beasts of the earth here are military hardware such as tanks, jets, helicopters. So, I see the fourth seal as devastation form war; 2 billion dead.

FOURTH SEAL: 2.? BILLION DEAD


What y'all think?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:17 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:I don't think the Papacy back then, and Constantine started out in righteousness. I see them as being in a bind because they could not squash Christianity even by putting Christians to death.

There is an inaccuracy in saying "the Papacy back then", for a few reasons. There was a time when the Roman Bishop was not Paganized.....as you said....there was a kind of slow drifting away. There does seem to be real merit in Constantine's conversion to Christ.
Reading "the Life of Athanasius" is a good place to get a real feel for what was happening in Rome during those critical years.
There Was a Good Reason the ancient church gave much Weight.....FOR Good....regarding Rome. It just didn't take the devil long to recognize that he had to attack the Church from Within it's own ranks to accomplished his desired Diabolical Effect.

sacredcowbasher wrote:This is my take on it, does history contradict this? I don't know the true history of this man. Even if it says that he was converted because this was his own personal testimony, I know of many times when I heard Catholics and others say with confidence that they were born again, when I knew they were not.


It's good you've mentioned this because only God can truly Know the heart of Anyone. But it is beyond me how anyone can remain Roman Catholic if they simply studied At All for themselves. The Leadership in the RCC is so antichrist in spirit it's mindboggling!

Now, about the Four Living creatures.....I'm very interested in that! Their relationship to the seals are not as you suggest I don't think though, but I could be wrong in saying that....maybe it is as your thinking, but I will post further in a little while.

I promised the kids we would go fishing tonight, and got to git :grin:

Thanx for jumping in,
Bless ya :grin:
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:15 pm

I see your point on the bible speaking well of Rome. I was just reading where Paul was longing to visit them and was planning on it for some time, but couldn't make it because there were so many towns to visit in Asia Minor. I often wondered about his speaking in kind terms whenever I read that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

It is in Chapter 15 of Romans where he is telling them he will pass their way on his way to Spain. He first was bringing money to the saints in Jerusalem and asking for prayer that they would kindly accept the gifts and that he wouldn't fall into the hands of those in judea who do not believe.

Here is a question just cause I want to know. Did he ever make it to Spain? I don't remember him ever leaving Rome once he got there.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:47 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:Here is a question just cause I want to know. Did he ever make it to Spain? I don't remember him ever leaving Rome once he got there.


Just got back from fish'n....had a ball! Report later

this is as much as can be in anyway known of Paul's later years after Rome.

Among the writings of the early Christians, Clement of Rome said that Paul was "Herald (of the Gospel of Christ) in the West", and that "he had gone to the extremity of the west".[69][70] Chrysostom indicated that Paul preached in Spain: "For after he had been in Rome, he returned to Spain, but whether he came thence again into these parts, we know not".[71] Cyril of Jerusalem said that Paul, "fully preached the Gospel, and instructed even imperial Rome, and carried the earnestness of his preaching as far as Spain, undergoing conflicts innumerable, and performing Signs and wonders".[72] The Muratorian fragment mentions "the departure of Paul from the city [of Rome] [5a] (39) when he journeyed to Spain.

I think Crysostom is a fairly reliable ancient writer as I remember.
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Thanks ST, I didn't think about googleing this. I looked on the maps in the back of my bible and it only shows Paul going to Rome on his fourth journey.

With Crysostom being reliable, it amazes me the ground Paul covered and the grace of God that was on him to carry out the work. Planting churches most everywhere he went. Amazing stuff.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:36 pm

its me Ricky, I caught a big mouth bass that is 15 and a half inches and a small bass too, and a catfish and a person caught a turtle and a person caught a bass that was 2 inches bigger than mine he gave it to us.
praise the Lord he helped me catch more fish and I love the Lord too like daddy :grin: :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby burien1 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:44 am

shorttribber wrote:its me Ricky, I caught a big mouth bass that is 15 and a half inches and a small bass too, and a catfish and a person caught a turtle and a person caught a bass that was 2 inches bigger than mine he gave it to us.
praise the Lord he helped me catch more fish and I love the Lord too like daddy :grin: :banana:

Lil shorttribber ? :grin: Good job !
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:13 am

shorttribber wrote:its me Ricky, I caught a big mouth bass that is 15 and a half inches and a small bass too, and a catfish and a person caught a turtle and a person caught a bass that was 2 inches bigger than mine he gave it to us.
praise the Lord he helped me catch more fish and I love the Lord too like daddy :grin: :banana:


Way to go Ricky !!! When is dinner ? :hugs:

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:19 am

Exit40 wrote:Way to go Ricky !!! When is dinner ?


we are going fishing tonight at about 7.
Dinner at about 9,dont be late :lol:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:40 am

On my way. :onlyjesus:

God Bless You

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:22 pm

guess we better quit horse'n around in this thread :alrighty:

Just kid'n Ricky :grin:
and David :grin:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby lepter on Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:00 am

Hi sacredcowbasher. I don't believe jesus is the first rider because if he was he would be unsealing himself from the scroll. I think.its the western European spirit. The spirit behind the European countries conquering the world.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:49 pm

Hey lepter, I do believe Europe will have a very significant role in the latter days. I really don't study along last days events. I haven't been in the book of the prophets or in Revelation in a long time. I do still hold to Europe being the predominant power, possibly alined with Russia. It will be a godless beast government IMO. I suppose they will, when the time comes, either build a strong standing army, and or have all the modern weapon capabilities.

It looks like we have a little time to continue to get the gospel to the ends of the earth.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Jericho on Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:10 pm

Hi St, in response to the comments on the other thread:

Why would you call them "modern day elements"? What do you mean by that exactly?


By modern day elements I mean thinks like Communism, socialism, capitalism, the pope, etc. For example, you said:

The rider on the White horse represents the Pope/Papacy
The rider on the Red horse represents communism, socialism and fascism
The rider on the Black horse represents capitalism and anarchy
The Pale/Pale Green horse represents the coming Antichrist and his Perverted Blend of all of the above powers.


I just don't see how you can be so certain of these things.

Again...Chronology must be Incorrect then....show the incorrect chronology that I'm suggesting and then you can say my position is anachronistic


Don't worry, its not an import point anyways, but at least you learned a new word. :wink:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:10 pm

Jericho wrote:By modern day elements I mean thinks like Communism, socialism, capitalism, the pope, etc. For example, you said:

Ok, I understand somewhat. First thing though...the Papacy is hardly modern.
Communism and Capitalism, I would agree are more modern. But would it not be more modern to suppose that the First horse would represent a Coming antichrist? Can't get more modern than something that has yet to occur right?
Jericho wrote:I just don't see how you can be so certain of these things.

I suppose it has to do with the whole layout of Zechariah also...it does very much matter as far as scriptural evidence is concerned.
Have you noticed the Scroll mentioned in Zech 5 and it's possible relationship to the Srcoll of Rev 5? Or how about the Two Witnesses mentioned in Zech and Rev.....shouldn't that also matter?
Or how about the Measuring of the Temple in both Zech and Rev... I think God wants us to recognize their relationship to each other at This Time in history, and maybe not as much in the past.
As we approach his Coming...Knowledge Is and Will Increase.

Jericho wrote:Don't worry, its not an import point anyways, but at least you learned a new word.

See :wink:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Jericho on Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:48 am

But would it not be more modern to suppose that the First horse would represent a Coming antichrist?


Not if that is whats implied, which I believe it is. You believe the first horse represents the pope? How did you come to that conclusion?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:29 am

Jericho wrote:
ST wrote:But would it not be more modern to suppose that the First horse would represent a Coming antichrist?
Jericho wrote: Not if that is whats implied, which I believe it is. You believe the first horse represents the pope? How did you come to that conclusion?


Dispensationalist Tradition has supplied that implication for many good Christians I think, but I don't think the text itself does so.
The first horse represents the Pope/Papacy and Constantine really. The short list I've made of representations are made short just for the sake of being short.
It is important to understand that the Rider and the Horse are each in view in the vision. The "Vehicle/Horse" is not the Rider and visa versa. Recognizing their respective responsibilities or purpose is important I think.

In the case of the Pope/Papacy, the Vehicle of their Power was Constantine Or shall I say "Political Link".
Each "Destructive Power" is linked to the Other Powers via Spiritual Powers.
They are all Working in Unison Against God, who is Only Righteous in His Power.

The reason I came to my original leaning that the first horse and rider represented the Pope/Papacy/Constantine is just through study of alternate ideas that differed from what I was originally taught.
Having just a little time to post today doesn't allow much of an explanation beyond that right now...will need to comment further later ok?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:24 pm

Jericho wrote:You believe the first horse represents the pope? How did you come to that conclusion?

To continue along on the answer to your question I would like to offer the following for your consideration.
Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Now, I know you could have heard this reasoning before, but lets just examine it once more.
It can be argued that the above statements (shortly come to pass/the time is at hand) was/is to be understood in a kind of Relative Sense to God's Eternal Arena of Time.
But let us lay that argument aside briefly enough to consider what the text Plainly Says, in it's Plain Sense.

Is that not a Lofty and Reasonable principle that has been Appropriately Championed by Reasonable commentators, especially Dispensationalist/Futurist Commentators?

Yes, you must agree.

Next, you may argue after this manner...
Re 4:
1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

Of course this is the Standard Pretrib Rapture Timing represented in the verse above. Since you are pre trib, you may or may not agree....some of your opinion do, some don't. That you do or don't doesn't matter.

What matters is that the words, "After this/hereafter" do not in any way intrude upon or require any change of meaning to the previous words from Chapter One Verse One(shortly come to pass/the time is at hand).

Now then, What Follows chapter 4 is of course chapter 5.....Where we find the Lamb and the Scroll as it's Primary Subject.

How is it then to be considered Reasonable to believe that The Seals of the Scroll would be Opened NEARLY TWO THOUSAND YEARS form the Time of The Things that should "Shortly Come to Pass" ?

To me, and to many others before the dispensational opinion gained widespread popularity, it is not reasonable to believe so.

Can we then look to resolve the apparent conflict by just considering the possibility that the First Seal Did in Fact Open only a Few Hundred years Thereafter, rather than a Couple Thousand (Still Future) years thereafter?

That's one of my reasons Jericho...will continue later ok?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Jericho on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:36 pm

shorttribber wrote:How is it then to be considered Reasonable to believe that The Seals of the Scroll would be Opened NEARLY TWO THOUSAND YEARS form the Time of The Things that should "Shortly Come to Pass" ?


In Acts 2, Peter quotes the prophet Joel concerning the day he was living in:

‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams. (Acts 2:17)


Isn't it interesting that Peter refers to his own day as the last days? We can infer then that we have been living in the last days for nearly two thousand years. And to God, a single day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a single day. I think this puts into perspective when John says things like "Shortly come to pass" and "for the time is near". His definition of "shortly" may be a bit different than ours.

As to the identity of the rider on the White Horse. Have you noticed that the seals in Revelation 6 parallel parts of the Olivet Discourse?

Seal 1:Rider on the White Horse. (The Antichrist, Rev 6:2, Mat 24:4-5)
Seal 2:Rider on the Red Horse. (War, Rev 6:4, Mat 24:6-7)
Seal 3:Rider on the Black Horse. (Famine, Rev 6:5-6, Mat 24:7)
Seal 4:Rider on the Pale Horse. (Pestilence, Rev 6:8, Mat 24:8)

Matthew 24:4-5 says, "And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many." Would that not fit the description of the anti-Christ? If I am correct, then Jesus revealed a big clue as to who the Rider on the White Horse represents.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby mark s on Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:27 pm

Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

Isn't "tachos" also translatable as "with swiftness", that is, "suddenly"?

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Aug 17, 2016 1:14 pm

Jericho wrote:Seal 1:Rider on the White Horse. (The Antichrist, Rev 6:2, Mat 24:4-5)
Seal 2:Rider on the Red Horse. (War, Rev 6:4, Mat 24:6-7)
Seal 3:Rider on the Black Horse. (Famine, Rev 6:5-6, Mat 24:7)
Seal 4:Rider on the Pale Horse. (Pestilence, Rev 6:8, Mat 24:8)
Matthew 24:4-5 says, "And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many." Would that not fit the description of the anti-Christ? If I am correct, then Jesus revealed a big clue as to who the Rider on the White Horse represents.


The first seal is more clearly showing The Many antichrists that can be described throughout history rather than The One Single and "Final Antichrist" though I think.
But you can find some support of your opinion in that verse, yes....I just think it leans more to a spread out picture of antichrists over a long course of time.

The sequence for the other seals fit also, yes, but again, the wording leans more to something occurring over a greater period of time rather than a brief 3.5 year span.

But either way, the sequence of Math 24 does match both ideas to a degree.

Jericho wrote: I think this puts into perspective when John says things like "Shortly come to pass" and "for the time is near". His definition of "shortly" may be a bit different than ours

Different, yes, that's why I said this already...
shorttribber wrote:It can be argued that the above statements (shortly come to pass/the time is at hand) was/is to be understood in a kind of Relative Sense to God's Eternal Arena of Time.

It is very interesting though to examine the "Last Days" wording of Peter...and of course later in letters by Paul.
The "Last Days", as of two or three days maybe....and this agrees with Hosea...you're right...God's Arena of time is much different than ours.

Mark also pointed out the "Nearness or Suddenness" Definition, and is also accurate. The reason for that I think is that the Lord did and does still intend for us all to have that Near Expectation of Events in our hearts.


going to add more later....got to run
:hugs: for both you and mark
and blessings
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:59 pm

shorttribber wrote:Mark also pointed out the "Nearness or Suddenness" Definition, and is also accurate. The reason for that I think is that the Lord did and does still intend for us all to have that Near Expectation of Events in our hearts.

mark s wrote:Isn't "tachos" also translatable as "with swiftness", that is, "suddenly"?

Looking at it again it would appear that "tachos" is more appropratly translated as "a short space of time", rather than Suddenly.
Strong's #5034: tachos (pronounced takh'-os)
from the same as 5036; a brief space (of time), i.e. (with 1722 prefixed) in haste:--+ quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
.................................................................................................................................................
The word "Quickly", used in several other places in the Revelation is more appropriatly translated "Suddenly" it seems.
Revelation 2:16: "or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them"
Revelation 3:11: "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man"
Revelation 11:14: "third woe cometh quickly."
Revelation 22:7: "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the"
Revelation 22:12: "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with"
Revelation 22:20: "saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord"

That is a very similar word...but it is different slightly...
Strong's #5035: tachu (pronounced takh-oo')
neuter singular of 5036 (as adverb); shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily:--lightly, quickly.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:23 pm

Please allow me to chip in my 2 cents worth.

In the New Testament en (G-1722) táchei (G-5034) is found 8 times in the following verses: -
Luke 18:8: - Légoo humín hóti poieései teén ekdíkeesin autoón en táchei Pleén ho Huiós toú Anthroópou elthoón ára heureései teén pístin epí teés geés
(I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" )

Acts 12:7: - Kaí idoú ángelos Kuríou epéstee kaí foós élampsen en toó oikeémati patáxas dé teén pleurán toú Pétrou eégeiren autón légoon Anásta en táchei Kaí exépesan autoú hai halúseis ek toón cheiroón
(Now behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him, and a light shone in the prison; and he struck Peter on the side and raised him up, saying, "Arise quickly! " And his chains fell off his hands.)

Acts 22:18: - kaí ideín autón légontá moi Speúson kaí éxelthe en táchei ex Ierousaleém dióti ou paradéxontaí sou marturían perí emoú
(and saw Him saying to me, 'Make haste and get out of Jerusalem quickly, for they will not receive your testimony concerning Me.'

Acts 25:4: - Ho mén oún Feéstos apekríthee teereísthai tón Paúlon eis Kaisáreian heautón dé méllein en táchei ekporeúesthai
(But Festus answered that Paul should be kept at Caesarea, and that he himself was going there shortly.)

Romans 16:20: - Ho dé Theós teés eireénees suntrípsei tón Satanán hupó toús pódas humoón en táchei Hee cháris toú Kuríou heemoón Ieesoú meth humoón
(And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.)

1 Timothy 3:14: - Taútá soi gráfoo elpízoon eltheín prós sé en táchei
(These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly;)

Revelation 1:1: - Apokálupsis Ieesoú Christoú heén édooken autoó ho Theós deíxai toís doúlois autoú há deí genésthai en táchei Kaí eseémanen aposteílas diá toú angélou autoú toó doúloo autoú Iooánnee
(The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants — things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John,)

[b]Revelation 22:6: -
Kaí eípén moi Hoútoi hoi lógoi pistoí kaí aleethinoí kaí ho Kúrios ho Theós toón pneumátoon toón profeetoón apésteilen tón ángelon autoú deíxai toís doúlois autoú há deí genésthai en táchei
(Then he said to me,"These words are faithful and true." And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place.)


and in most cases above we could substitute how it has been translated into the English with, within a short period of time without radically effecting the meaning in the first six cases of the shortened English translation. while the two references in Revelation gives a different view to that as is expressed in Luke 18:8 in that it is suggesting that it will happen in the "near future" relative to the lifetime of the Apostle John, we are still waiting for many of the events described in the Book of Revelation to occur with them being near and distant events.

It is my view that in the two Book of Revelation occurrences, the translation of en táchei should be "within a short period of time" for the events as described in the Book of Revelations. It is highly likely that there will be a number of events that will occur, which of themselves, are simply short term events but they will be separated by relatively extended periods of peace until the next traumatic rapidly occurring events begins to unfold.

The Greek word, táchei is derived from the Greek Root/word táchos and the Greek Root definition is as has been previously posted by St.

The question in Luke 18:8, Romans 16:20, Revelation 1:1 and 22:6 that needs to be answered is the timeframe in which the events described will occur?

Even now, it is still the $64,000 question that needs to be firmly put to bed.

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