Horses,Chariots and Riders.

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Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:21 am

Revelation and understanding is what God has promised to provide for His saints, and He Will Continue to provide exactly those things as the days draw closer to the sounding of the last trump and our gathering to him in the clouds.

So, even though many things have been hidden from our understanding, and traditional Ideas are available and somewhat reasonable, that should never discourage us from looking closer at and examining different ideas that may prove to be yet more reasonable and scripturally sound.

Ideas and opinions of What the Horses, Chariots, and Riders of Zech. 6 and Rev. 6 represent are plentiful throughout history in our Bible Commentaries for over 1,500 years. How then are we to clearly establish what could be Called a “Traditional” View?

We Could describe certain Views as “Traditional Historicist”, or maybe “Traditional Dispensationalist/Futurist”, and those would be in a broad sense fairly accurate. As students of prophecy we can choose to cling like a Bulldog on a Hambone to the “Traditional” idea that best suits Our Ideas and Opinions, but is that wise if in Error?

In the past, on several occasions, I’ve asked the Lord to help me understand the horses, chariots and riders connection to each other in Zech. 6 and Rev.6, but nothing seemed to be clearly shown by him to me…until a few weeks ago. What came to me was so distinct, evident and powerful that I was just “Absolutely Convinced” it was True. Then, the Flu hit the whole house, Starting with Me…my wife is still struggling with it…kids are doing well now.

Then, as I began to feel better, my desire to type the notes I’d been working on and send them to Vic was delayed……it just seemed the notes vanished into thin air! When I’ve put notes together in the past, they don’t just disappear like that. After searching everywhere I had begun to come to the conclusion that I just plain missed God on this one, and He was letting me know that He didn’t want me to share what I so truly thought He gave me about these things.

How I came to find the notes must be told later maybe due to time and space, but, finding them as I did again made me to Know, No, I Didn’t miss God on this one at all…He just Reinforced in my heart that He Did in Fact Answer me about these things.

I will always be willing to admit error, and I could be still in error……but we Will See, if it’s True or False soon I think.

The Works of the Flesh have been made known to us by God, Gal. 5: 19-21. These Rotten Fruit of Fallen Man are a Product of Four Elementary and Foundational Spirits that “Stand” in Opposition “Before” God….Zech. 6:5.

These Four “Spirits/Winds” are each twofold in composition, Two United/Joined/Married together in a most Unholy Union, and are Portrayed by the United/Joined Horses and Chariots, and Horses and Riders of Zech 6 and Rev 6………Both……chapter SIX.

What are These Four Elements that are Twofold in Composition? They are…
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth……………….White
•2. Hatred and War……………….Red/Bay
•3. Rebellion and Greed…………………….Black
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist…………………Grisled/Pale Green

Is it a wonder then that the Ancient Pyramids are the Symbol of Freemasonry, Illuminati, and the new World Order and It’s Four Cornered Foundational Structure? All Four, Proceed to One Final "Joining" at the Final Confrontation with God for “The Kingdom of Heaven”?

Something to remember also, Zechariah was given a vision of “Spirits” that “Go” from “Standing” before God. It does not say “Have Gone”, “Are Going” or “Will Go”. In other words, Over Time, they “Go”. Prophecy, in nearly every case will have a Past, Present, and Future application, and so it is here in Zech. 6 and Rev. 6.

Their Order is given in such a way in Zechariah as to when they first appear from Between two Mountains“Like Brass”(Brass speaks of suffering), and also an Order that they leave.

By the Order they leave, when applying them to Past, Present and Future Events we can see these parallels.

First. Black…Rebellion and Greed……The Fall, Lust of the Flesh, Lust of the Eye, Pride of Life.(1John 2:16)

Second. White…What “Followed After”(Zech 6:6) was Self-righteousness and Self-worth…….But they Could Not "Right" themselves with Fig Leaves…they also could have thought, We Didn’t Die! Just like the serpent said, we must have Greater Value, Greater Worth than God told us. But No, if not for God’s tender Mercies,We are All Expendable. (Lamentations 3:22).

Third. Grisled……Idolatry and Antchrist…to the south, to bide their time and Influence Kingdoms and Mankind over time and go Undetected or Unnoticed (the man behind the curtain, so to speak).

Fourth. Red/Bay………Hatred and War……………What has been more common as going about throughout the earth over time?




Fast forward now to the Order and Parallels of Rev 6.

The rider on the White horse represents the Pope/Papacy, consider these things:

Almost everything associated with the papacy is White, White and White. Remember the dream Constantine had of the symbol of a cross on a White…… FLAG……; under that standard he was told he would conquer and DID conquer.

The rider on the Red horse represents communism, socialism and fascism, consider this:

The Red………… FLAGS………… of all of the above isms should be easy enough to recognize.

The rider on the Black horse represents capitalism and anarchy, consider too:

Read the contents of Rev 6:5-6 and see if this doesn’t look like failed capitalism(via greed and selfishness)running headlong toward anarchy, and what color of………… FLAG ………do we see among anarchists, it’s Black.

The Pale/Pale Green horse represents the coming Antichrist and his Perverted Blend of all of the above powers.
•1) Religious power (white horse): Self-Righteousness……And……Self-Worth
•2) Political power (red horse): Hatred………And…………War
•3) Economic power (black horse): Rebellion………And……Greed

All of these Powers (Spirits) were given there chance to destroy the elect of God over time.

But we have God’s Promise (Covenant/Testament) that the Gates (Gen 22:17&Math. 16:18) of Hell will NOT PREVAIL over His church! please excuse me while I take a lap and shout just a minute!…just kidd'n, guess I weren't! run-n-shout'n in progress!………we WIN this thing!


Ok, I'm back. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………

Now, what color of ……FLAG………most represents ISLAM?…Right…GREEN…PALE GREEN

Idolatry ……And………ANTICHRIST.

The Fourth Horseman………The Loser/antichrist and his antichristian World Dominion Agenda
And the Koran/Islamic Number Unholy Number of 666
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………

So, is this just coincidence?………Are You really being Honest and Objective if you think that?
Last edited by shorttribber on Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:53 am

:abandoned:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:55 am

:boohoo:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:04 pm

ST, i would agree that the horsemen of Rev and Zech are spirits/winds, as they are portrayed as such in Zech. And in Zech they are 'restrained' by God until the time for them to be released and they go throughout the earth. This appears to also be pictured at the seals, the horsemen are 'restrained' or sealed until Jesus breaks the seals and they are released.

Imo, the 'restrained spirits' may be the extreme evil desires and attitudes that reside in men that up to this point have had some measure of restraint until the full weight of the evil men are capable of will be released. I don't think God sends evil, He just withdraws His restraint of it's ultimate depravity. What is described at the first 4 seals are events caused by men, they are man caused disasters.

I am not sure about the colors or the hoses/horsemen, the first horseman appears to be conquest or the desire to rule, white could be associated with royalty or the elites, Red is usually associated with war, black could be associated with oil or economics, green with death and decay (or zombies!).

Anyway you do have some interesting points.

One other thought, in Zech 1 the horsemen are described early in the chapter and then later 4 'craftsmen' are described as throwing down the gentile nations and terrifying them. While the horsemen would essential accomplish what the craftsmen are described as doing, the horsemen appear to tear down while craftsmen are usually associated with building up.

And in scripture craftsmen are associated with the building of the tabernacle and temple. If the horsemen of Zech 1 (and 6 and Rev) are also the craftsmen (of Zech 1), it would appear that God is turning the gentile nations against themselves, He is allowing their own evil desires (spirits/ 4 horsemen) to destroy themselves and clear the way for Israel to rebuild the temple. As it is not only the muslim nations but the national leaders and world leaders that are dividing Israel, Judah and Jerusalem, preventing Israel from rebuilding the temple,and therefore all the nations (the 4 horns? -US, UN, EU, Russia)and their leaders will have to be dealt with.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:26 pm

First of all, Thankyou 1WW :grin: ,
Soon I might have been compelled to add another emoticon just to entertain myself in this thread :mrgreen:
Anyway, thanx for the mention of the interesting points, you have also brought out some very good ones too.
Must look into the craftsman more myself.....sure makes sense though, what you said regarding them thus far.

1whowaits wrote:Imo, the 'restrained spirits' may be the extreme evil desires and attitudes that reside in men that up to this point have had some measure of restraint until the full weight of the evil men are capable of will be released......... it would appear that God is turning the gentile nations against themselves, He is allowing their own evil desires (spirits/ 4 horsemen) to destroy themselves and clear the way for Israel to rebuild the temple.


The temple part of course you know where I stand on that...but I will certainly admit that I could be wrong in that regard, it's all up to God, and what he will do there. Evil desires that have been so destructive are evident I think though, Very evident.

1whowaits wrote: in Zech they are 'restrained' by God until the time for them to be released. This appears to also be pictured at the seals, the horsemen are 'restrained' or sealed until Jesus breaks the seals and they are released.


That's a good observation too in how they are associated with each other. Of course I look at both from a much greater historic vantage point as to When , and for What Design or Purpose they are released. As I said, revealing past, present and future Understanding of What they themselves Represent.

Thanx again for jumping in. bless ya :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:25 am

"In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every......... horse ..........with astonishment, and......... his rider....... with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every....... horse of the people....... with blindness."
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:35 pm

I am sorry to throw a wrench into your so well thought out hypothesis but Revelation actually tells us what the horses and riders represent, there is no need to ascribe some other meaning.

Revelation 6:2-8
2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.


This rider represents the spirit of the conquerors who conquer nations.

3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.”
4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.


This rider represents the spirit of war

5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”


This rider represents the spirit of economic hardship leading to famine

7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.”
8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


This rider represents physical death brought about as the result of the first three riders and spiritual death which rides with him.

I do agree that Zechariah speaks toward a similar set of spiritual riders. Throughout the old testament you will find these four kinds of "doom" promised by God to those who were disobedient. See Leviticus 26 for the precedent, along with the following passages (there are more instances as well):

Ezekiel 5:15-17
15 ‘So it will be a reproach, a reviling, a warning and an object of horror to the nations who surround you when I execute judgments against you in anger, wrath and raging rebukes. I, the Lord, have spoken.
16 ‘When I send against them the deadly arrows of famine which were for the destruction of those whom I will send to destroy you, then I will also intensify the famine upon you and break the staff of bread.
17 ‘Moreover, I will send on you famine and wild beasts, and they will bereave you of children; plague and bloodshed also will pass through you, and I will bring the sword on you. I, the Lord, have spoken.’ ”


Ezekiel 14:21
21 For thus says the Lord God, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!


(The wild beasts are the conquerors/ white horse)

Each rider is what i think are spiritual beings (winds) that influence geopolitical events on the earth. For instance in Ezekiel 9 we see the "executioners" who are angelic beings as well as the "man" who went about writing upon the foreheads of those who would be spared from the executioners. But physically it was the Babylonians who were influenced to carry out the deed. God used the Babylonians to accomplish His will for Judah and Jerusalem. Because they rebelled against God He brought upon them the consequences he laid out for them in Leviticus 26.

Zechariah explains that the horses and chariots he saw patrolled the earth, their purpose is to appease God's wrath. (Zech 6:8) or Give rest to God's spirit.

I would suggest that the Revelation horses and riders are a new testament manifestation of an Old Testament reality. Just as there was a change in the ministry of the Holy Spirit so I believe there was a change in the ministry of these spirits, they are now sent out by Christ Himself as He begins to unseal the scroll.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:57 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of the conquerors who conquer nations.

ok...
The rider on the White horse represents the Pope/Papacy, consider these things:
Almost everything associated with the papacy is White, White and White. Remember the dream Constantine had of the symbol of a cross on a White…… FLAG……; under that standard he was told he would conquer and DID conquer.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of war

ok.....
The rider on the Red horse represents communism, socialism and fascism, consider this:
Political power (red horse): Hatred………And…………War
The Red………… FLAGS………… of all of the above isms should be easy enough to recognize.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of economic hardship leading to famine

ok.....
Read the contents of Rev 6:5-6 and see if this doesn’t look like failed capitalism(via greed and selfishness)running headlong toward anarchy, and what color of………… FLAG ………do we see among anarchists, it’s Black.
Economic power (black horse): Rebellion………And……Greed
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents physical death brought about as the result of the first three riders and spiritual death which rides with him.

ok.....
Now, what color of ……FLAG………most represents ISLAM?…Right…GREEN…PALE GREEN

Idolatry ……And………ANTICHRIST.

Seems like very much the Same to me....just a different perspective I guess....but the same they are, don't you agree?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:04 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Zechariah explains that the horses and chariots he saw patrolled the earth, their purpose is to appease God's wrath. (Zech 6:8) or Give rest to God's spirit. I would suggest that the Revelation horses and riders are a new testament manifestation of an Old Testament reality. Just as there was a change in the ministry of the Holy Spirit so I believe there was a change in the ministry of these spirits, they are now sent out by Christ Himself as He begins to unseal the scroll.


I agree primarily with what you're saying...it just seems to me that they are spread out over time....and the Seals have already been opened over a greater period of time.

The principle is the same as you are saying though.....just over a greater period of time.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:43 pm

shorttribber wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of the conquerors who conquer nations.

ok...
The rider on the White horse represents the Pope/Papacy, consider these things:
Almost everything associated with the papacy is White, White and White. Remember the dream Constantine had of the symbol of a cross on a White…… FLAG……; under that standard he was told he would conquer and DID conquer.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of war

ok.....
The rider on the Red horse represents communism, socialism and fascism, consider this:
Political power (red horse): Hatred………And…………War
The Red………… FLAGS………… of all of the above isms should be easy enough to recognize.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents the spirit of economic hardship leading to famine

ok.....
Read the contents of Rev 6:5-6 and see if this doesn’t look like failed capitalism(via greed and selfishness)running headlong toward anarchy, and what color of………… FLAG ………do we see among anarchists, it’s Black.
Economic power (black horse): Rebellion………And……Greed
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:This rider represents physical death brought about as the result of the first three riders and spiritual death which rides with him.

ok.....
Now, what color of ……FLAG………most represents ISLAM?…Right…GREEN…PALE GREEN

Idolatry ……And………ANTICHRIST.

Seems like very much the Same to me....just a different perspective I guess....but the same they are, don't you agree?



Um.... well.... not really. A lot of things are white, such as the white flag of surrender, the white robes of the Hebrew Priests, the wedding gown of a bride, the white robes worn by the saints in the kingdom. Just because something is white doesn't mean it correlates to the horse in Revelation. Sure Constantine was a conqueror, but so was Cyrus, Alexander the Great, Atilla the Hun and Napoleon etc..... You might say that Putin is a modern day conqueror. Also the Pope today isn't going about conquering nations, so no I really don't agree sorry. I actually see the white horse as political power rather than the red horse.

The red horse is military power- yes the communists and socialists have used their military might against others, but they are but a few of those who have wielded the sword of war throughout history.

Likewise the black horse, capitalism is just one failed economic model, socialism and communism,and the Sharia Islamic system have also failed and brought hunger to it's peoples. I agree that greed plays a role, but it isn't greed that the rider wields, it is hunger through economic hardship.

As for the pale green representing antichrist and idolatry, I just can't see where you get that at all, Islam has a green flag? What does that have to do with it? I don't mean to sound trite but that is a stretch at least to me. You are interpreting scripture in light of what is going on in the world today ascribing meaning to things that really aren't there in scripture.

I agree primarily with what you're saying...it just seems to me that they are spread out over time....and the Seals have already been opened over a greater period of time.

The principle is the same as you are saying though.....just over a greater period of time.


It may surprise you, but I agree with you here, I believe that these four riders were released by Jesus sometime shortly after He took His throne in heaven and that others like them have been "riding" throughout the history of mankind.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:35 pm

got to run to taco bell......answer a little later :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:37 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Um.... well.... not really. A lot of things are white

That really doesn't matter that other things are white too does it?
What is being pointed out is something very specific, that has historically been Very Harmful and Destructive to the Saints......but has the Appearance and FORM of godliness, and Self Righteousness and Self Worth.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Also the Pope today isn't going about conquering nations

That doesn't matter, and the text does not say he conquers "Nations", it just says "to Conquer".
Resurrection Torchlight wrote: I actually see the white horse as political power rather than the red horse.

That's ok, but it's very difficult to separate Politics and War isn't it?
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:The red horse is military power- yes the communists and socialists have used their military might against others, but they are but a few of those who have wielded the sword of war throughout history.

Sure, but they have had their course of Primary Destruction have they not? And given the chance again, would they not do the same? of course they would, they were/are Primarily to DESTROY the Christians and Jews.
Resurrection Torchlight wrote: capitalism is just one failed economic model, socialism and communism,and the Sharia Islamic system have also failed and brought hunger to it's peoples. I agree that greed plays a role, but it isn't greed that the rider wields, it is hunger through economic hardship.

Remember, it not only represents Capitalist Greed....But also...Rebellion.

please remember, not one of these four in Zech or Rev are entirely separate or independent from the other...they are all connected in one way or another.........................they All fall under the Banner of Sin and Destruction.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:As for the pale green representing antichrist and idolatry, I just can't see where you get that at all, Islam has a green flag? What does that have to do with it?


Just google Islamic flags, and hit images...Pale Green is the most common Color.

it has a Lot to do with it.....explain later...thanx for the input.


More later....got to run...add more tonight
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:51 pm

Don't mean to intrude on the excellent discussion, but doesn't the pale horse (greek "chloro") mean death and disease and plagues?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:39 pm

ST, RT, just throwing in some thoughts about the timing of the seals/horsemen.

The throne room scene in Rev 4 appears to parallel that described in Dan 7, and Jesus is described as being present after the Father is described in both accounts. In Dan 7 the little horn is boasting at the time of the throne room scene suggesting that the event occurs during the time the AC is present on the earth. Also in Rev the seals/horsemen are tied to the trumpets and bowls and the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl appear to describe the same event, the thunder, lightning, etc. The final trumpets and bowls are tied to the end of the 70th week and armageddon suggesting that the seals/ horsemen also have some association with the end.

In Zech 1 the horsemen are again described and in Zech 2 Jerusalem is described as a city without walls which would suggest a future- current day Jerusalem. In Zech 1 God discusses returning to Israel in mercy and rebuilding the temple and blessing Israel which could occur at 3 separate times- after the Babylonian captivity, after Gog-magog or during the millenium. God sends the craftsmen to throw down the gentiles which would argue against the millenium as Jesus destroys the nations at armageddon not 4 craftsmen.

Zech 1 describes 4 horns scattering Israel, Jerusalem and Judah, which the 4 horns appear to be doing simultaneously, and this did not occur after the Babylonian captivity. In the past 4 separate entities may have ruled Israel, but not all scattered Israel (Persia, Greece) and all 4 did not work together or simultaneously as Zech 1 describes. Therefore Zech 1 is not describing a past event.

This would suggest that the horsemen of Zech 1 ride at a future time when Israel is divided by 4 gentile powers. likely the present day.

Zech 6 describes the horsemen coming from between 2 mountains of bronze, which some have associated with the twin towers and 9/11, which seems unlikely at first glance. But then considering God's anger against the gentile nations in Zech 1 and their leaders dividing up Israel, Judah and Jerusalem and apparently preventing His temple from being rebuilt, one has to consider at what point did the world begin to appease the muslims in ernest? Although the radicals were initially opposed, everything has been done to appease the so called moderate muslims since 9/11, including a 'peace' treaty that sanctions and makes permanent the division of Israel and Jerusalem. The quartet of the US, UN, Russia and the EU are promoting and forcing the division of Israel and Jerusalem and would give control of the temple mount to the muslim nations. The 'horns' are currently dividing Israel, Jerusalem and Judah and are preventing any considertion of rebuilding the temple of God in Jerusalem.

So the horsemen may have in reality only recently started riding and are soon to reach full speed and accomplish their mission, resulting in the throwing down and terrifying of the quartet and their leaders, which would include all the nations of the world, except Israel.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:46 pm

Shortribber, I understand what you are saying, but I am not quite sure you are understanding me. My point is that you are tying specific things to something intended to be more general. The entity on the white horse is the spirit of the conqueror, he influences geopolitics on earth so that leaders of men will conquer others. Typically and historically this means conquering other nations/people groups. No where does the scripture indicate that the rider represents the Pope, though the Pope may be influenced by the spirit of the conqueror, he is not himself the rider of the white horse. One of the reasons why you made the connection of the Pope to the rider is because of the color white, I merely was trying to demonstrate that this logic could lead me to speculate that other white things might also pertain. There have been many historic things that have been very harmful and destructive to the saints. How about the Romans before Constantine , or the Persians or the Ottomans or the Reformed movement under Calvin, or the Chinese, India, Russians, and the list goes on.

Now let me be the first to admit that where prophecy is concerned that I myself speculate as to meaning. But here there is no need to speculate because we are told what these riders cause on earth. They are not tied to any specific person, religion, nation etc... they are charged with tasks, those tasks are performed often through human agents or counterparts. These tasks are not limited to any definite time frame, only that they are released to perform these tasks by Christ when He removes the seals, when that happened or happens is open to debate. They are not limited to who they influence and may very well have influenced many men throughout history. The point is that you are being specific when the scriptures themselves are not specific. You are making assumptions based on what you think is a good fit.

I am not trying to diss you, I hope you don't take it that way, I am merely trying to show you the flaw in your logic. I know that you feel God led you in this process, I know that you probably spent a significant amount of time putting your thoughts together. I know how that goes, and I am guilty of making the same mistakes myself. Reading into a passage what isn't really there. When we speculate let's be honest and say so. Some speculation follows a better logical path according to scripture and may seem more promising, but it is still speculation. You can try to convince me and I can try to convince you. But in the end there are some things we will never pin down no matter how hard we try, how much time we spend at it and how we feel we have been led in our understanding.

In the end there will be a conqueror who conquers during the end times- a specific person, there will be specific wars where many are killed, there will be famine and death. In hind sight it will all be clear as to who and what these will be. You may very well turn out to be right in some of your assumptions. But the scripture never makes the connections you are making- these entities are not tied to any specific person or event, we only know the effect they have on earth, not how exactly it is accomplished or through whom.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:59 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, RT, just throwing in some thoughts about the timing of the seals.

The throne room scene in Rev 4 appears to parallel that described in Dan 7, and Jesus is described as being present after the Father is described. In Dan 7 the little horn is boasting at the time of the throne room scene suggesting that the event occurs during the time the AC is present on the earth. Also the seals are tied to the trumpets and bowls and the 7th seal, trumpet and bowl appear to describe the same event, the thunder, lightning, etc.

In Zech 1 jerusalem is described as a city without walls which would suggest a current day Jerusalem. In Zech 1 God discusses returning to Israel in mercy and rebuilding the temple and blessing Israel which could occur at 3 separate times- after the Babylonian captivity, after Gog-magog or during the millenium. God sends the craftsmen to throw down the gentiles which would argue against the millenium.

Zech 1 describes 4 horns scattering Israel, Jerusalem and Judah, which the 4 horns appear to be doing simultaneously, and this did not occur after the Babylonian captivity. In the past 4 separate entities may have ruled Israel, but not all scattered Israel (Persia, Greece) and all 4 did not work together or simultaneously as Zech 1 describes.

This would suggest that the horsemen of Zech 1 ride at a future time when Israel is divided by 4 gentile powers. likely the present day.

Zech 6 describes the horsemen coming from between 2 mountains of iron, which some have associated with the twin towers and 9/11. which seems unlikely. But then considering God's anger against the gentile nations and their leaders dividing up Israel, Judah and Jerusalem and apparently preventing His temple from being rebuilt, at what point did the world begin to appease the muslims in ernest? Although the radicals were opposed everything has been done to appease the so called moderate muslims, including a 'peace' treaty that sanctions and makes permanent the division of Israel and Jerusalem. The quartet of the US, UN, Russia ans the EU are promoting and forcing the division of Israel and Jerusalem and would give control of the temple mount to the muslim nations.

So the horsemen may have already started riding and are soon to reach full speed and accomplish their mission.


You have some interesting thoughts, I agree that the scene in Daniel 7:9-12 is very similar to that in Revelation 4. However I believe that the scene in revelation 4 shows Christ entering into heaven as the Lamb that was slain, just as the book of Hebrews in chapter 9 describes, Christ entered into heaven and initiated the New Covenant era. Everything about the scene in revelation 4 screams the initiation of the New Covenant era- to me anyway.

Daniel describes what I believe are two separate scenes, the scene where as you say appears to occur when the little horn (Antichrist) is making boasts, this scene would appear to be happening during the end times and would appear to correlate with Revelation 20, note how in these verses the term Ancient of Days is used. But the other scene in Daniel 7: 13-14 the term Son of Man is used. Note that the Son of Man is caught up to heaven with the clouds and He is presented before the Ancient of Days. So who is the ancient of days? The Father- God, and what is happening in this scene? Jesus is having the kingdom of the saints conferred upon Him, when did this happen? It happened when He was resurrected into heaven to take His seat on the throne (John 3:35; 1 Cor 15:27; Eph 1:20–22; Phil 2:9–11; Rev 1:6). Jesus enters into the heavenly throne room and is presented before the throne of God where He has the Kingdom handed over to Him. Daniel was witnessing the beginning of the New Covenant era just as John witnessed it. Daniel looking forward and John looking back.

I do not think the four horns of Zechariah are related to the four horses of Revelation, if anything the horses of Zechariah are more in line with them. In Zechariah's vision you have colored horses(and later in chapter 6 you have four chariots with colored horses) you also have four horns and four craftsmen. The Horses are spiritual entities that patrol the earth, the horns are those who have (past tense) scattered Judah, Israel and Jerusalem, these horns represent earthly rulers or nations. Zechariah wrote toward the end of the 70 year captivity in Babylon. The passage indicates that both Judah and Israel were scattered by these horns and so they were by Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and Medo- Persia up to that point. The four craftsmen appear to be spiritual entities whose job is to terrorize and throw down the nations that scattered them, in other words they deliver God's retribution. Pay back baby! (See Isiah 54)

When I read the Revelation I see that the seals are followed by the trumpets and the trumpets are followed by the bowls, I do not see that they overlap or are concurrent with one another. Their effects are similar but not exactly the same.

The effect of the 7th seal is a half hour of silence in heaven (Rev 8:1)

The effect of the 7th trumpet are loud voices proclaiming the commencement of the reign of Christ on earth, lightning, thunder, earthquake and a hailstorm. War in heaven and Satan cast down to earth to persecute what we would call the tribulation saints.

The effect of the 7th bowl is the voice from the heavenly temple proclaiming it is done! Lightning, thunder, a very great earthquake like none that have ever occurred before so that every Island flees and mountains are thrown down and 100 pound hailstones.

So I speculate that the seals are opened first before the trumpets, which are then followed by the bowls I speculate that the first four seals have already been removed when Christ entered into heaven after His resurrection. I believe that the fifth and sixth seals represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the Rapture (consecutively) and that they are the next events to take place prophetically speaking that is.

That's my take for what it is worth

RT
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:37 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:My point is that you are tying specific things to something intended to be more general.

It may be that you're thinking that by Pope or Papacy and Constantine as They Alone are the White horse and Rider. That's not the case however. These two Representatives are just that, they represent a Starting Point that the White horse Begins to Ride........All of the Papacy, Continuous, that has Conquered the Hearts, Minds and Peoples of Nations Worldwide with their Idolatrous Religion are represented.
The White Horse Continues to Ride, there has been a joining of Religious Power With political Power by them.
The point of showing the Horses and Riders of Rev 6 as being more specific than those in Zech 6 is just, IMO, to be shown to us by God, how the Spirits of Ungodly humanity has Manifested itself against the Saints Specifically.....during the Bringing In/Grafting In of the Gentiles.
All of the Horses are Linked to Each Other in various ways to Destroy the Elect of God......and they all Continue to Ride. And.....as I said......All of these Powers/Riders/Spirits are ONE in Unity, with One Evil Foundation.
That is why I mentioned the Pyramid as their best Physical Example..........Four Corner Based, All Connected and they HAVE BECOME more and More Closely Connected and Joined in One PURPOSE as is Seen at the Top of the Pyramid when they Come to The top/Point/End EFFORT.......to Destroy the Saints.
Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.



More to add regarding the Ancient of Days, the Son of Man, and the Kingdom of God....in a later post.....thanx for the good discussion ya'll.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:50 am

shorttribber wrote:Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.


Hi shorttribber,

This part of your post reminded me of this scripture:

2Ti 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power....
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:40 am

GodsStudent wrote:Don't mean to intrude on the excellent discussion, but doesn't the pale horse (greek "chloro") mean death and disease and plagues?


The word Pale is translated, Green in other different Bible versions...that's all I know about the word really.
It is though, as I understand it, meant to imply or describe a kind of Pale Green associated with pale green colors of Decaying Flesh.

It's not hard for me at least to see the Parallel with Antichrist and Islam and this Color....especially by their Most Common Color utilized in their Flags.

This is also a good place to mention something about the meaning and importance that Banners, Flags, Ensigns have had and still have worldwide.

And also, for how God Himself wants us to understand Banners/Ensigns ... Just look up all and read about How God sees them....won't list them all here....just look up in Strongs, banner,banners,ensign.
Flags,Banners......mean Plenty...to the Ungodly and to God.

That's one reason why I do see a great importance of the Flags in parallel Representations in Rev 6.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:45 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.


Hi shorttribber,

This part of your post reminded me of this scripture:

2Ti 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power....


Yes, and these Spirits...are coming to a Head....Really..............Converging into One Antichrist Power.

Nice to have you jump in too Abiding... :a3:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:41 am

Ride. And.....as I said......All of these Powers/Riders/Spirits are ONE in Unity, with One Evil Foundation.


I do not see these horses and riders as having an evil foundation at all, they are sent out by Jesus Himself and perform a function sanctioned by God. They may cause what appears to be evil in the sight of men, but their purpose is a righteous one, to chastise the rebellious. God has throughout time used their effects on earth to bring men to a point of repentance, to cause God's wrath to be appeased so that he would not destroy mankind for their rebellion. Read Leviticus 26 you will find the precedent for the effects of these horse riders there. God first warns those who sin against Him, then He strikes or chastises them, and if they still continue in their rebellion He punishes them. There is an escalation in the severity, just as we see in the Revelation, the seals are the warning, the trumpets are the chastisement and the bowls are the punishment.

The effects of the riders were set forth as conditions for those who rebel against God for Israel (Leviticus 26, Deut. 32:23-25, Jeremiah 15: 2-3, Ezekiel 5:11-17) And also against other nations (Ezekiel 14:12-21) They are not a new phenomenon. Matthew 24 and the parallel in Luke 21 also seem to indicate that these effects will be upon the earth. And indeed they are, as they have always been.

You are confusing the cause with the effect. The cause are the spirits who are seated on the horses, the effect they have is demonstrated on the earth. The effect is clearly stated right there in the passage- To conquer , to take peace from the earth so that men would slay each other, hunger and death. The riders who are spiritual entities cause these effects to happen on earth. These spiritual entities may use people who are self righteous, who have hatred and are greedy and idolatrous or put another way- the riders may influence these kinds of people to act so that their effects might be realized physically on the earth. But the riders themselves are not described in scripture the way you are describing them, they don't represent what you are claiming here: .

Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.



Zechariah 6 says nothing like what you are claiming it says, rather it says that these are four spirits of HEAVEN, who stand before the Lord, they patrol the earth, they appease God's wrath.

Zechariah 6:5-8
5 The angel replied to me, “These are the four spirits of heaven, going forth after standing before the Lord of all the earth,
6 with one of which the black horses are going forth to the north country; and the white ones go forth after them, while the dappled ones go forth to the south country.
7 “When the strong ones went out, they were eager to go to patrol the earth.” And He said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth.
8 Then He cried out to me and spoke to me saying, “See, those who are going to the land of the north have appeased My wrath in the land of the north.”


These kinds of spirits have been employed by God for ages, they are not spirits of evil, but spirits of God, who under the instruction of God influence the geopolitics of men on earth.



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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:49 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.


Hi shorttribber,

This part of your post reminded me of this scripture:

2Ti 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power....


There is a mix of apples and oranges going on here I think. These things are true and I agree that we are certainly seeing this happening all around us today. But this is not connected to the four horsemen of Revelation, this is merely a proclamation of what the state of men's hearts will be as the end times draw nearer, there is no connection to the seal riders.

RT
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:46 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Zechariah 6 says nothing like what you are claiming it says, rather it says that these are four spirits of HEAVEN, who stand before the Lord, they patrol the earth, they appease God's wrath.


The wording is different than you suggest though............
5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

The Word "heavenS" is used, rather than "Heaven". And the Plain text simply says, "which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth".
It says nothing of going to "patrol the earth"(see edit below).
The devil is the Prince and Power of the Air(heavens) And this example in Job...
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This is very close to the idea that is expressed in Zech the Prince and Power and spirits of like kind of the Air/heavens....can come and Go Forth from standing before God..........Allowed to Go Forth, Not Commanded or Ordered BY God to Go Forth.................they Just..............Go Forth thru the Earth......To the Four Winds/throughout the earth.
Effecting every Fallen being is their Destructive nature...............And is Allowed BY God to Serve His End Purpose.

I know you see this differently RT, but that's why we just put our thoughts out there and disagree or agree...and that's fine....none of use know for certain at all.




5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

Rather than the Order or command to "Patrol the Earth"....it looks much more like God just says to them to ...Get Away from before me and do what you Intend to do or have Begun already to do.
Notice...And the bay went forth, and Sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth......basically God says, this is what you've "Sought or "Seek" to do...........Then..........Do It.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:32 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Do you see, I'm not being So Specific as you think, I'm including ALL Powers that are Earlier Represented in Zech 6....
•1. Self-righteousness and Self-worth
•2. Hatred and War
•3. Rebellion and Greed
•4. Idolatry and Antichrist
Showing HOW these POWERS/SPIRITS have been.........PRIMARLY.....Manifested during The Saints Historic War Against the SPIRIT of Antichrist.......by Rev 6's Somewhat More Specific, but not Entirely Specific Model.


Hi shorttribber,

This part of your post reminded me of this scripture:

2Ti 3:1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2Ti 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Ti 3:4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2Ti 3:5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power....


There is a mix of apples and oranges going on here I think. These things are true and I agree that we are certainly seeing this happening all around us today. But this is not connected to the four horsemen of Revelation, this is merely a proclamation of what the state of men's hearts will be as the end times draw nearer, there is no connection to the seal riders.

RT


We can share different opinions of course but it doesn't seem they are so unrelated that it's as though we were comparing apples and oranges.

Just say'n
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:36 am

Hi Shorttribber,

I've been away from the computer for a while, so I haven't been keeping up much with the conversations here at FP, but I was thinking about getting back into it a little bit again, and I just so happened to pick this thread to glance over first. I haven't read it very thoroughly, but here is what I think.

My first thought is, I don't know of any time when white represents something evil in scripture. As far as the papacy, if anything, I think they might be represented more by the color scarlet.

But anyway, I decided to take a look at Zechariah 6 to refresh my memory, and here is what I noticed, in Zechariah 6 it says that in the first chariot were red horses, in the second were black, in the third were white, and in the fourth were grisled and bay.

Then it goes on to talk about the second (the black horses) first, followed by the the third and fourth (the white and the grisled bay), and then it goes on to mention the building of the temple.

So, I was like, what about the red horses, are they perhaps mentioned in the prior chapter, because I didn't see anything that I could relate to the red horses in Zechariah 6.

So, I looked at the prior chapter (Zechariah 5), which I noticed is the one about the flying scroll, which many think represents a nuclear missle.

Obviously, missles are associated with war.

Then I went back one more chapter, which of course we all know that Zechariah 4 is about the building of the temple again. So, the building of the temple seems to bracket this part about the four horses.

Then I tried to see if I could see another reference in scripture concerning the four spirits, to see what that might relate to, but I couldn't find anything. So I said, let me try four winds. And here is what I came up with (among a few other references to four winds).

Mat 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mar 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Rev 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


Here are all the references to four winds:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=four+winds&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 8:00 am

Hi watching :banana:

The flying scroll is associated with the scroll in Rev i think.......they are related in a similar way with the horses/chariots/riders.

That scroll is opened later as we see written in the Revelation of Christ.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:30 pm

Watching, great to hear form you. I have associated the flying scroll as more closely resembling the covenant with death. ..... Man, I can't find anything in Scripture today. Just a thought, need help again.

God Bless You !

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T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:42 pm

Exit40 wrote: Man, I can't find anything in Scripture today. Just a thought, need help again.


What ya mean? Clarification please.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:18 pm

Hi Shorttribber,

The idea that this scroll relates to Revelation 1 does not seem plausible in my opinion.

For one thing, this "scroll" represents wickedness (verse 8), and a curse (verse 3) that goes forth through all the earth.

I wouldn't consider the "scroll" in the book of Revelation a curse, because there are good things in there, as well.

Also, the "scroll" is later carried by two women with wings of a stork (verse 9), from my understanding a stork is an unclean bird, so there is no way that Jesus would hold a "scroll" that was carried by two women with the wings of an unclean bird.

So, this "scroll" is definitely something evil.

Also, according to the measurements this would be a gigantic scroll.

In order to understand what was probably being referred to in Zechariah 5, it would probably be easier to watch the following video, than for me to try to explain it.

I had seen this video some time ago, and need to rewatch it myself (I watched a little bit just now to refresh my memory, but I'll watch the rest later). Anyway, here is the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRCh54zN7hc

Now, getting back to the red horse, I had remembered studying this some time ago, and remembered after I had made my post, that there is a prior mention of a red horse in the book of Zechariah.

In fact, I did a word search for "red horse" and it comes up twice. Once in Zechariah 1, and the other time in Revelation 6.

Whats interesting, is that the word for "red" in these instances is the word "fire" or "fire red" in the Greek.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4450&t=KJV

It's used only twice in the New Testament, once in reference to the horse in Revelation 6:4 and the other time in Reference to the Dragon in Revelation 12:3.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4450&t=KJV

In the video, it explains how the word for woman in Zechariah 5 (H802), is the same exact word as (H801), which means fire offering. I also noticed when I looked up the Strong's for this in the Blue Letter Bible, that H801 is the same as H800, which means fire.

So, the red horse is associated with fire, and the "scroll" in Zechariah 5 is associated with fire.

The video also explains that the word "scroll" is not the typical double cylinder scroll, but rather a single cylinder scroll, as in the meguilla of Esther. (The video shows images of what this type of scroll looks like).

Interestingly, in the Greek, in the Septuagint, the word for "scroll" in Zechariah 5 is actually the word "sickle."

Revelation 14:18

And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(emphasis added mine, I just noticed this part about the fire, btw, as I'm typing this)

Here is the word sickle in Zechariah 5:2 in the Greek:

5:2 καὶ εἶπεν πρός με τί σὺ βλέπεις καὶ εἶπα ἐγὼ ὁρῶ δρέπανον πετόμενον μῆκος πήχεων εἴκοσι καὶ πλάτος πήχεων δέκα

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Zec&c=5&t=KJV#s=t_conc_916002

And here is the word sickle in Revelation 14:18:

14:18 Καὶ ἄλλος ἄγγελος ἐξῆλθεν ἐκ τοῦ θυσιαστηρίου ἔχων ἐξουσίαν ἐπὶ τοῦ πυρός καὶ ἐφώνησεν κραυγῇ μεγάλῃ τῷ ἔχοντι τὸ δρέπανον τὸ ὀξὺ λέγων, Πέμψον σου τὸ δρέπανον τὸ ὀξὺ καὶ τρύγησον τοὺς βότρυας τῆς γῆς ὅτι ἤκμασαν αἱ σταφυλαὶ αὐτῆς

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=14&t=KJV#s=t_conc_1181008
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:20 pm

Hi Exit40,

I was already typing the above post before I saw your post.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 2:34 pm

Hi Watching,

It is not such that I say they are one and the same, I think they are related, and that the one in revelation is later opened.
They both seem to have forms of Testing or Judgment. Allowed Evil via, Religious, Political and Economical forms it seems could only be Allowed or Unsealed by the Only one Found Worthy.........God Alone.

That's the connection I see in them.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:44 pm

Shorttribber,

Did you watch the video?
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:49 pm

watching wrote:Shorttribber,

Did you watch the video?


Going to now :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:56 pm

shorttribber wrote:
watching wrote:Shorttribber,

Did you watch the video?


Going to now :grin:


You really need to, I just watched it myself.

What amazes me is that I wasn't planning to find all of these coincidences with fire in the scripture.

The first time I watched this video, I took it with a grain of salt.

But in conjunction with the things that I just found in the scripture, I must say, I am really amazed.

I'm just surprised that no one else is as amazed as I am sometimes.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:24 pm

watching wrote:
shorttribber wrote:
watching wrote:Shorttribber,

Did you watch the video?


Going to now :grin:


You really need to, I just watched it myself.

What amazes me is that I wasn't planning to find all of these coincidences with fire in the scripture.

The first time I watched this video, I took it with a grain of salt.

But in conjunction with the things that I just found in the scripture, I must say, I am really amazed.

I'm just surprised that no one else is as amazed as I am sometimes.


Oh I'm amazed alright, just watched it......can I sum up the Relationship of the Scrolls/Horses/Chariots and Riders in a few words then?



Allowed Evil.


shorttribber wrote:They both seem to have forms of Testing or Judgment. Allowed Evil via, Religious, Political and Economical forms it seems could only be Allowed or Unsealed by the Only one Found Worthy.........God Alone.That's the connection I see in them.
Last edited by shorttribber on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Spreading Salt on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:10 pm

With the exception of Abiding, you all came to FP after this post. Here are my thoughts:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8008

:a2: SS
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Spreading Salt on Sat Mar 15, 2014 6:12 pm

PS - I have a very "blended" view of the order of Revelation in that I believe the Seals/Trumpets overlap somewhat. The bowls follow in the very last stages of time prior to Yeshua's physical return to earth, and then they all complete almost simultaneously. Yeah, have fun with that one! :shock: :wink:
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:12 pm

Spreading Salt wrote:With the exception of Abiding, you all came to FP after this post. Here are my thoughts:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8008

:a2: SS


I need to take the time to look at this closer, it's interesting stuff, thanx for putting this link on this thread :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sat Mar 15, 2014 7:13 pm

Spreading Salt wrote:PS - I have a very "blended" view of the order of Revelation in that I believe the Seals/Trumpets overlap somewhat. The bowls follow in the very last stages of time prior to Yeshua's physical return to earth, and then they all complete almost simultaneously. Yeah, have fun with that one! :shock: :wink:


We're both Overlappers :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 7:55 am

shorttribber wrote:
Exit40 wrote: Man, I can't find anything in Scripture today. Just a thought, need help again.


What ya mean? Clarification please.


I use Blue Letter Bible, and in doing a word search for a passage the exact spelling must be made, and there is no search for an idea or concept. So if I have lost my mind, so to speak, I am not able to find the passage I am looking for. I love to 'dig' into the Word, and watchings' posts are intriguing, and yes, amazing. Can't always express that bliss of revelation, or being on the edge of a deeper understanding. Wrapping your mind around something is one thing, getting your mind wrapped around is another. :a2:

God Bless

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 8:05 am

Spreading Salt wrote:With the exception of Abiding, you all came to FP after this post. Here are my thoughts:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8008

:a2: SS


Hi SS. Mon Mar 6 '06 was the first day of the new forum, the one we use now. Many of our members have been around much longer. I don't know when this site was started by Herb, what a Blessing though, and to have Abiding as our moderator.

I am a 'blended' type on the seals, trumpets, bowls also. Nope, can't explain to myself all that, yet.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:03 am

Exit40 wrote:I use Blue Letter Bible, and in doing a word search for a passage the exact spelling must be made, and there is no search for an idea or concept.


Don't you just use a Strong's too? For me it's always been the easiest way to find any place in scripture I'm looking for.
That's just me, I don't even know what a Blueletter Bible is, but I have heard if it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 16, 2014 9:11 am

Just googled about the Blue Letter Bible.....interesting......shows how antiquated my methods of study are :mrgreen:

Oh well....works for me......I'm just an old paper'n pen study fuddy duddy :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Exit40 on Sun Mar 16, 2014 12:08 pm

shorttribber wrote:Just googled about the Blue Letter Bible.....interesting......shows how antiquated my methods of study are :mrgreen:

Oh well....works for me......I'm just an old paper'n pen study fuddy duddy :mrgreen:


Yur doin just fine. I have learned from you. Thanks Bro.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 16, 2014 1:16 pm

Thanx David,

And for you too Watching and others who might enjoy this.........basically off the main subject of the thread but I think anyone who Looks at Daniel 9 as we do will enjoy this great read.

I'm sure you guys can figure out how to size it differently and turn pages and such.
Just too good not to share :grin:

https://archive.org/stream/abrah00nich#page/n5/mode/2up

Just enjoy it as you have time......the page on this link below is very interesting too David, Very interesting! It's page 204 of same book


https://archive.org/stream/abrah00nich# ... 4/mode/2up
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Sun Mar 16, 2014 3:51 pm

shorttribber wrote:Oh I'm amazed alright, just watched it......can I sum up the Relationship of the Scrolls/Horses/Chariots and Riders in a few words then?

Allowed Evil.


Hi Shorttribber,

I can understand the perception of the red, black, and pale horse, as being "allowed evil," but I just wouldn't be so quick to make that assumption about the white horse.

I know we discussed this before, but I think part of the reason people assume what they do about the white horse in Rev 6, is because this is the only time that the word "νικάω" is translated as "conquer" which seems to have a negative connotation.

Most every other time (24 to be exact) it is translated as "overcome" and once as "prevail" and once as "to get the victory."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3528&t=KJV

Now, assuming these horses are sent from God, regardless of whether they are "allowed evil" or not, do you think God would send out the Pope, or send out the anti-Christ as having prevailed (overcome) and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL????

Because that is what the scripture is saying.

Here is how Revelation 6:2 reads in the Greek:

6:2 καὶ εἶδον καὶ ἰδού, ἵππος λευκός καὶ ὁ καθήμενος ἐπ᾽ αὐτῷ ἔχων τόξον καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ στέφανος καὶ ἐξῆλθεν νικῶν καὶ ἵνα νικήσῃ


6:2 καὶ (and) εἶδον (I saw) καὶ (and) ἰδού (behold), ἵππος (horse) λευκός (white) καὶ (and) ὁ (the) καθήμενος (the one sitting) ἐπ᾽ (on) αὐτῷ (it) ἔχων (having) τόξον (a bow) καὶ (and) ἐδόθη (was given) αὐτῷ (him) στέφανος (a victor's wreath) καὶ (and) ἐξῆλθεν (he came forth) νικῶν (having overcome) καὶ (and) ἵνα (that he might) νικήσῃ (overcome)

And I saw and behold a white horse and the one sitting on it having a bow and he was given a victor's wreath and he came forth having overcome and that he might overcome (in other words TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL).
emphasis added mine

Also keep in mind, all the mentions of the word "στέφανος" (victor's wreath) in the Greek:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4735&t=KJV

And all the mentions of the word "λευκός" (white) in the New Testament:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3022&t=KJV

Not to mention, all the mentions of the word "overcome."

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3528&t=KJV
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Sun Mar 16, 2014 5:30 pm

watching wrote:Now, assuming these horses are sent from God, regardless of whether they are "allowed evil" or not, do you think God would send out the Pope, or send out the anti-Christ as having prevailed (overcome) and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL????


The text doesn't say he was "Sent Out".
"Allowed Out" yes, and Only God is Worthy to Allow such testing of His Saints.
So, Absolutely Yes, to reveal the Self-righteousness of Man......to his Saints....and discover also How the Spirit of Antichrist Manipulates mankind through Religion and Self-worthiness.

Has the Papacy via Roman Catholicism Prevailed as a Worldwide Religious Power? Of Course it has.
Only Christ could be Worthy to Try his Family after this manner......Christ alone could Allow the Reformers such heartbreaking struggles against themselves that were a Direct Result of their Painful Dissension from Roman Catholicism and the Rudimentary Similarities in the Church of England.

Oh yes, I firmly believe that the Fourwinds (Spirits of Worldwide Fallen Humanity)are perfectly represented in these Horses ,Chariots and Riders.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby watching on Mon Mar 17, 2014 4:24 am

shorttribber wrote:The text doesn't say he was "Sent Out".


Hi Shorttriber,

First of all, I said "...assuming they were sent by God....."
watching wrote:Now, assuming these horses are sent from God, regardless of whether they are "allowed evil" or not, do you think God would send out the Pope, or send out the anti-Christ as having prevailed (overcome) and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL????


And I said that based on the fact that the premise of your opening post was the possibility that Zechariah 6 might be related to Revelation 6......

shorttribber wrote:These Four “Spirits/Winds” are each twofold in composition, Two United/Joined/Married together in a most Unholy Union, and are Portrayed by the United/Joined Horses and Chariots, and Horses and Riders of Zech 6 and Rev 6………Both……chapter SIX.


shorttribber wrote:Something to remember also, Zechariah was given a vision of “Spirits” that “Go” from “Standing” before God. It does not say “Have Gone”, “Are Going” or “Will Go”. In other words, Over Time, they “Go”. Prophecy, in nearly ever case will have a Past, Present, and Future application, and so it is here in Zech. 6 and Rev. 6.
shorttribber wrote:In the past, on several occasions, I’ve asked the Lord to help me understand the horses, chariots and riders connection to each other in Zech. 6 and Rev.6, but nothing seemed to be clearly shown by him to me…until a few weeks ago. What came to me was so distinct, evident and powerful that I was just “Absolutely Convinced” it was True.


.....which, btw, I don't think is a farfetched idea (that is the possibility that Zechariah 6 and Revelation 6 might be related). Especially since there are other instances in scripture where similar things are talked about "coincidentally" (if there is such a thing) in the same chapter number. For example, Romans 11 and Revelation 11 both talk about olive trees, Daniel 12 and Revelation 12 both talk about Michael. I'm not sure if that's a coincidence, or not.

So, once again, assuming the possibility that Zechariah 6 and Revelation 6 are related, then these horses would be sent out by God, because consider the following scriptures:

Zechariah 6:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.
emphasis added mine

Zechariah 1:9-10

King James Version (KJV)

9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.

10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.

emphasis added mine

So, again, I ask, would God send out the Pope, or the anti-Christ, as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby Spreading Salt on Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:20 am

So, again, I ask, would God send out the Pope, or the anti-Christ, as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


I don't think we're talking about an individual here. It's the spirit of conquering. It can spread through multiple physical places. Throughout the earth. Global spiritual reality, such as a specific religious belief: catholicism, or islam.

Whichever spirit being referenced, it is a global norm or practice. :2cents: SS
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Re: Horses,Chariots and Riders.

Postby shorttribber on Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:15 am

watching wrote:Zechariah 1:9-10King James Version (KJV)9 Then said I, O my lord, what are these? And the angel that talked with me said unto me, I will shew thee what these be.10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the Lord hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.emphasis added mineSo, again, I ask, would God send out the Pope, or the anti-Christ, as having overcome and TO OVERCOME/PREVAIL???


Hi Watching,

This is answered in this way.....

shorttribber wrote:5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth.
So they walked to and fro through the earth. Rather than the Order or command to "Patrol the Earth"....it looks much more like God just says to them to ...Get Away from before me and do what you Intend to do or have Begun already to do. Notice...And the bay went forth, and Sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth......basically God says, this is what you've "Sought or "Seek" to do...........Then..........Do It.


The word "sent" used in Zech 1 can also mean, Let depart and Let go, just as I have above described.

So again, my answer is Yes, God Alone is Worthy to Allow such to meet his End Goal.

This also is the same Spirit the Roman See had when he/they of Rome "Sought to" have Preeminence over other Bishops,
Through an apparent Sprit of Self-righteousness and Self-worth.

Yes, I do stand by this, God Did Allow it, and "Let Them Go" and "Let Them Depart from the Faith, Once delivered to the Saints", "Letting Them Go" along there Self-righteous Course.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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