All seals have been opened except the 6th

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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:18 pm

wkc wrote:Hi Watching,

Just wondering if you could provide more info on what you are trying to convey in the scriptures below?

watching wrote:Hi Sonbeam and wkc,

I think we can get a pretty good idea of what was past, present, and future (from the time John was being given the apocalypse) by the following verses:

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;............

.................Revelation 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.


Hi wkc,

I'm not really sure how to expound on it any more, other than to say that, in Revelation 1:19, John was told to write about three things: the things he had seen, the things which are, and the things which will be hereafter.

Then, in Revelation 4:1, John is told the following: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The key word that I'm trying to point out is the word, "hereafter."

"Hereafter" would refer to sometime in the future, from that point, or some time after the things that were just shown, and the things were at that time.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:11 pm

watching wrote:Then, in Revelation 4:1, John is told the following: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The key word that I'm trying to point out is the word, "hereafter."


There can still be a "Looking Back" in the prophetic and timeless realm though also Watching.
Example, Rev 12.
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And ...........she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:............ and her child was.............. caught up unto God, and to his throne.

this is a scripture that requires a great deal of complicated conjecture if the "Man Child" does not refer to Christ. A face value, uncomplicated reading of the text Loudly Declares that it refers to Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:11 pm

Hi Shorttribber,

To assign an identity to anyone or anything in the scripture that is not clearly stated involves conjecture.

And I really don't want to do that.

However, I think we may be able to get some clues if we look for certain words and phrases, to see who they refer to elsewhere in the scripture, and at least take those clues into consideration.

For example, we know that Jesus rules with a rod of iron, but you may also want to consider the following.

Revelation 2:24-29

King James Version (KJV)


24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

28 And I will give him the morning star.

29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


See all of Revelation 2 here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%202&version=KJV

In Revelation 12 the woman gives birth to a man child, but there is also a man child that is born in Isaiah 66.

Isaiah 66:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.


See all of Isaiah 66 here:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%2066&version=KJV
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:44 pm

Also I just wanted to add, that Jesus was born as a baby in Bethlehem 2,000 years ago.

But we also know that Jesus' return will be preceded by birth pains.


Matthew 24:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.



Mark 13:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.


The Greek word for "sorrows" in the above verses means "birth pains."

See Strong's definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5604&t=KJV

John 16:15-22

King James Version (KJV)


15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

17 Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

19 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22 And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.


The word travail in the above verse refers to giving birth. And it is a form of the same word used in Revelation 12.

See definition and concordance here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5088&t=KJV

Romans 8:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


The word "travaileth together" in the above verse means to be in birth pains together.

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4944&t=KJV
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 04, 2013 8:29 pm

Hi Watching,

This passage,
Isaiah 66:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.

To me, it seems, speaks of Christ being born of "Israel"(the Faithful Woman) That True "Woman with the twelve stars"
She Gave Birth to An "Holy Nation/Royal Priesthood" In One Day. That Priesthood Being Melchizedek/Christ. That is why Christ said to her "Woman" not Mother, "Woman".
She gave birth in "One Day" to An Holy Nation.......In Christ.......The Israel Of God is One Holy Nation, One Household of Faith............One household of Israel.

The other ref in Rev regarding ruling with a rod of iron, IMO, speaks of the church in some capacity ruling WITH Christ, He RULES, we just Rule WITH.........He is The Manchild, Not the Church.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:46 am

Hi Shorttribber,

Isaiah 66 speaks of a nation being born. This was partially fulfilled when Israel became a nation in 1948.

Isaiah 66:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.


However, it will be more importantly fulfilled when the holy nation of Israel is born.

1 Peter 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;


Jesus is the High Priest.

Hebrews 3:1-6

King James Version (KJV)


3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.

3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.


Hebrews 4:14-16

King James Version (KJV)


14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


Hebrews 6:17-20

King James Version (KJV)


17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


In Isaiah 66 the woman who gives birth is Zion.

There are so many passages that I could post in regard to Zion, that I wouldn't even know where to begin. So, it might be easier to just do a search on Zion, and woman.

See the following link:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=zion+woman&t=KJV

And then just do some research on Zion:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=zion&t=KJV

Or Sion:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=sion&t=KJV

Anyway, I was doing my own research, while I was in the process of making this post, and I found the following passage which I thought was very interesting.

Zechariah 9:13-16

King James Version (KJV)


13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:23 am

watching wrote:Hi Shorttribber,

Isaiah 66 speaks of a nation being born. This was partially fulfilled when Israel became a nation in 1948.


Seems to me you understand Zion only as soil, rocks and real estate...........I see Zion as a High Place of the Holy Eternal HABITATION of God Almighty.

And That Habitation/Temple/Nation/Mountain Has been in PLAIN VIEW in the Spirit...........Long before 1948.

There is one element of temporal fulfillment in 1948, but not the Primary Fulfillment of what Zion actually IS in the SPIRIT.
The Physical Land of Israel is not Mt Zion.

Is 57
12 I will declare thy righteousness, and thy works; for they shall not profit thee.

13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;

14 And shall say, Cast ye up, cast ye up, prepare the way, take up the stumblingblock out of the way of my people.

15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; ..............I dwell in the high and holy place, ...........with ..............him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Zion is the ETERNEL dwelling of God........not dirt, rocks and realestate.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:30 am

shorttribber wrote:Seems to me you understand Zion only as soil, rocks and real estate.......


Where did you get that idea???

:humm:
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:48 am

watching wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Seems to me you understand Zion only as soil, rocks and real estate.......


Where did you get that idea???

:humm:


The mistake in my typing is that i used the word ONLY.....i know that is incorrect, my apologies.
What could have been said, was something to the effect that 1948 was being stressed by you as a fulfillment of "the nation born in A Day", as opposed to what i had said as the Primary fulfillment of the prophecy, and is a bit of a lack of understanding of True mt. Zion, and the Israel of God, IN Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:53 am

anyway....i think we may be drifting from the main topic, so i will resist any further detailed comments along this line...i think you'll agree too.
:blessyou: as always
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:54 am

Hi Shorttribber,

Here is what I said:

watching wrote:Isaiah 66 speaks of a nation being born. This was partially fulfilled when Israel became a nation in 1948.


watching wrote:However, it will be more importantly fulfilled when the holy nation of Israel is born.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:05 am

shorttribber wrote:anyway....i think we may be drifting from the main topic, so i will resist any further detailed comments along this line...i think you'll agree too.
:blessyou: as always


I don't feel that it's gotten off topic. I think that it's all related. But, I don't really like speculating about the book of Revelation to begin with. So that's fine with me.

I'm just trying to post other scriptures for people to consider, that's all.

It's up to everyone to read the book in it's entirety and decide for themselves what they think it all means.

:blessyou:

Here's the book of Revelation in it's entirety:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+1&version=KJV
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby wkc on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:57 am

:deadhorse:
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 11:43 am

watching wrote:
However, it will be more importantly fulfilled when the holy nation of Israel is born.

only a quick observation.

5 Ye also, as lively stones, ..........are ...........(Not [Will Be] but Are)built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye .............are............(Not [Will Be] but Are) a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

***************** Words in parenthesis mine of course ********************

There will be a Grafting in of MANY Jews.........But the Holy Nation Already IS Now.....Not To Be Born in the Future Once Again
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Wed Jun 05, 2013 2:10 pm

Mr. Baldy and Watching,

Rev 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. (NKJV)

Revelation 1:19 (NASB) |
19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.


In my estimation, I think the above scriptures are self-explanatory. John is told to write not only what will take place after these things, but also what he has seen and the things which are.

As shorttribber mentioned, some of the things which John has seen are shown in the vision of the woman in Rev Chap 12. And the vision of the 5th seal refers to the saints who died prior to the Cross.

We also have to interpret the above verses in the context of what Rev 1:1 says:

Rev1:1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The word of God encompasses everything in the history of mankind, not just the last few years prior to His Second Coming.

Will post on the opening of the 6th seal later.

If anyone is interested, my views on the vision of the woman in Rev 12 is here:

viewtopic.php?t=57959
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:11 pm

shorttribber wrote:5 Ye also, as lively stones, ..........are ...........(Not [Will Be] but Are)built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.


Hi Shorttribber,

Here is how this reads in the Greek:

καὶ αὐτοὶ ὡς λίθοι ζῶντες οἰκοδομεῖσθε οἶκος πνευματικὸς ἱεράτευμα ἅγιον ἀνενέγκαι πνευματικὰς θυσίας εὐπροσδέκτους τῷ θεῷ διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ


καὶ (and) αὐτοὶ (they) ὡς (as) λίθοι (stones) ζῶντες (living) οἰκοδομεῖσθε (are being built) οἶκος (house) πνευματικὸς (spiritual) ἱεράτευμα (preisthood) ἅγιον (holy) ἀνενέγκαι (to offer up) πνευματικὰς (spiritual) θυσίας (sacrifices) εὐπροσδέκτους (that are acceptable) τῷ (to) θεῷ (God) διὰ (by) Ἰησοῦ (Jesus) Χριστοῦ (Christ)

Now here is just the English:

And they as living stones are being built a spiritual house a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ

The word translated as "built up" is present passive indicative.

Passive means that the subject is the recipient of the action. Therefore it should more correctly be translated as "are being built" to reflect the passive tense.

See tense here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=2&t=KJV#conc/5

And see the proper inflection here:

οἰκοδομεῖσθε οἰκοδομέω οικοδομ(ε)·εσθε pres mp ind 2nd pl or pres mp imp 2nd pl you(pl)-are-being-BUILD/EDIFY-ed, be-you(pl)-being-BUILD/EDIFY-ed! 1Pt 2:5

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/index.php?search=OI%29KODOMEI%3DSQE

shorttribber wrote:9 But ye .............are............(Not [Will Be] but Are) a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


Here is how this verse reads in the Greek:

Ὑμεῖς δὲ γένος ἐκλεκτόν βασίλειον ἱεράτευμα ἔθνος ἅγιον λαὸς εἰς περιποίησιν ὅπως τὰς ἀρετὰς ἐξαγγείλητε τοῦ ἐκ σκότους ὑμᾶς καλέσαντος εἰς τὸ θαυμαστὸν αὐτοῦ φῶς


Ὑμεῖς (you) δὲ (but) γένος (generation) ἐκλεκτόν (chosen) βασίλειον (kingly) ἱεράτευμα (priesthood) ἔθνος (nation) ἅγιον (holy) λαὸς (people) εἰς (unto) περιποίησιν (preservation/possession) ὅπως (how/that) τὰς (the) ἀρετὰς (praises) ἐξαγγείλητε (you should make known) τοῦ (of him) ἐκ (out) σκότους (of darkness) ὑμᾶς (you) καλέσαντος (upon calling) εἰς (unto) τὸ (the) θαυμαστὸν (marvelous) αὐτοῦ (of him) φῶς (light)

Now here is just the English:

But you a chosen generation a royal priesthood a holy nation a people unto preservation/possession that you should make known the praises of him upon calling you out of the darkness into his marvelous light.

The word "are" is not in the text.

See concordance here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Pe&c=2&t=KJV#conc/9
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:02 pm

Hi Sonbeam,

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I had learned a lot from that thread. (And I'm still learning.) :mrgreen:
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:49 pm

watching wrote:Now here is just the English:

And they as living stones are being built a spiritual house a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ

The word translated as "built up" is present passive indicative.

Passive means that the subject is the recipient of the action. Therefore it should more correctly be translated as "are being built" to reflect the passive tense.


Of course the building is in progress and so is the Holy Nation..........Must the work of God be finished before we can be called His Building Now? Or His Temple now? Or His People Now? No, we (A New Generation/New Creations in Christ)Are Now His Holy People (Jew and Gentile/ ONE NEW Nation/ and Holy Nation)and a Royal Priesthood in Christ.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:57 pm

We became of the United States of America..................Born in one day...............when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

The Holy nation of Israel became An Holy Nation in One Day..............When God the Father Declared our Dependance on Christ.......at the Cross.


Both Nations are still being Built today.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:09 pm

If the birth has already taken place, then why are there still birth pains?
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:36 am

watching wrote:If the birth has already taken place, then why are there still birth pains?


I know, it's hard to perceive....

look at the scripture again....

7............ Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, ..........she was delivered of a man child.............
8 .............Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?.................... Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once?......... for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.


It's an Act of the Spirit........Not a Natural Act.

One Birth, but two entities, two entities BECOME One over time........But in Eternity, in the Spirit, There is No Time.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:11 am

Hi Shorttribber,

I was just looking over the Revelation 12 thread from a few years ago that Sonbeam posted in the Prophecy Questions and Answers Section, and I'm realizing that there is so much that I didn't understand back then. And I'm sure that my understanding is still lacking in a lot of ways, which is part of the reason for my reluctance to post concerning the book of Revelation.

But, nevertheless, at that time, I had the same understanding as you, concerning the church. I thought the church was born 2,000 years ago, particularly on Pentecost.

However, at this point in time, I have come to agree with Keeping Alert's reply to me on that matter.

Here is what Keeping Alert wrote:

Keeping Alert wrote:
watching wrote:Besides that, it is my understanding that the church was born on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to us as a deposit.



watching, the church was NOT born on Pentecost. It was CONCEIVED on Pentecost. The Church is the body of Christ and it is in the process of formation, if you will, and when all the body parts and organs are in-place and when it is term, the Church will be born. We know this to be true because more and more people are being added to the body of Christ as they come to know the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, so the Church is in progress...


However, I do agree with you that this birth occurs in stages, or by multiple births.

But, I don't think the birth has actually occurred yet. I think the birth that occurred before the travail, was the physical nation of Israel in 1948. However, I don't believe that the birth of spiritual Israel has occurred yet.

Because if you think about it, what happens once a baby is born. Doesn't a baby begin to suck immediately after it is born?

Has Isaiah 66:10-14 been fulfilled yet?

Isaiah 66:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.

12 For thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.

13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.

14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:51 am

watching wrote:Keeping Alert wrote:
watching wrote:
Besides that, it is my understanding that the church was born on Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to us as a deposit.


watching, the church was NOT born on Pentecost. It was CONCEIVED on Pentecost. The Church is the body of Christ and it is in the process of formation, if you will, and when all the body parts and organs are in-place and when it is term, the Church will be born. We know this to be true because more and more people are being added to the body of Christ as they come to know the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, so the Church is in progress...


IMO, the principle KA and you've understood is correct, but the timing is in error.
Conception began with Abraham............and Birth at Pentecost.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Hi Shorttribber,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. I just can't see how there could be a birth and there still be birth pains. Or how a baby can be born and not be allowed to suck.

I know you want to be a warrior in God's army, but I just don't see why the rapture cannot happen first.

Read the next few verses in Isaiah 66:

Isaiah 66:18-22

King James Version (KJV)


18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:58 pm

shorttribber wrote:Conception began with Abraham............and Birth at Pentecost.


It's ok if we agree to disagree....and i have no Absolute reason to believe that the traditional Historic view also Could not come to pass......and that means the gathering could occur at any moment.

Would be nice.

Just look though at what i've said regarding Conception starting with Abraham and his SEED.

Please compare Strong's word #2233 Seed with #2232 Conceive Seed.


God to Abraham......"In Isaac shall they Seed be called"
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:53 pm

Hi Shorttribber,

I'm not sure I'm understanding your point, but it was probably a mystery to Abraham as to why the promise was made to him and to his seed (singular), when Abraham was to have so many descendants. However, the explanation for that is given in Galatians 3.

See link here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=3&t=KJV#16

Regardless, I don't think the seed in this instance was referring to conception, but rather to a particular offspring, or descendant, which we now know was to be Jesus. And of course anyone who believes in Christ is also counted as Abraham's seed, and an heir to the promise (Galations 3:29).

As far as when the church was conceived, I'm really not sure.

In any case, I'm much more interested at this point in the birth. :mrgreen:
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:05 pm

The promise = The Word of God
The Promise/Word of God = The Seed
Abraham/First CHURCH Father = Act of Faith
Action of Faith/Planting Needed Germination + The Promise/God's Word/Seed = Conception

The Church is a Universal Congregation of Abraham's Seed that is One, Conceived when Abraham believed God and he was accounted righteous by Him.

The Son of Man is Abraham's Seed in the Flesh......Born, the Man Child.....We are One Seed With/In Him, yet we are many...........an Ongoing Birthing (Each one Being Born of the Spirit)Process that occurs Over Time...............But in the Eternal/Spirit Realm/Dimension, we are One.

God has Indeed "Brought to Birth" the Church, at Pentecost, In Christ, and he has not yet "Shut the Womb" and will not until the Body of Christ (Church) Is Born Again Entirely.

That's the way i understand it. Maybe i'm wrong, but it sure makes sense to me.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:35 pm

I'm sorry Sonbeam if i've strayed too far again from the topic....oops :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:45 am

shorttribber wrote:I'm sorry Sonbeam if i've strayed too far again from the topic....oops :mrgreen:


Not to worry shorttribber. :grin: Thanks to you and watching for keeping the thread going. Will try to post later on today. Am out the door right now.

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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Jericho on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:29 am

Parallel between the sixth seals and the Olivet discourse:

First Seal: I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. ... I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest (Revelation 6:1,2).
Jesus: Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, “I am the Christ,” and will deceive many (Matthew 24:4,5).

Second Seal: When the Lamb opened the second seal,...another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword (Revelation 6:3,4).
Jesus: You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom (Matthew 24:6,7).

Third Seal: When the Lamb opened the third seal,...there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard...a voice...saying, “A quart of wheat for a day’s wages, and three quarts of barley for a day’s wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!” (Revelation 6:5,6).
Jesus: There will be great earthquakes, famines... (Luke 21:11).

Fourth Seal: When the Lamb opened the fourth seal,...I looked and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth (Revelation 6:7,8).
Jesus: [There will be]...famines and pestilences [plagues] in various places... (Luke 21:11). All these are the beginning of birth pains [sorrows] (Matthew 24:8).

Fifth Seal: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained (Revelation 6:9).
Jesus: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. ... For then there will be great distress [great tribulation], unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:9,21,22).

Sixth Seal (part 1):
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place (Revelation 6:12-14).
Jesus: Immediately after the distress [great tribulation] of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies [powers of the heavens] will be shaken (Matthew 24:29).

Sixth Seal (part 2): Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Revelation 6:15-17).
Jesus: At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet [shofar] call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other (Matthew 24:30,31).

Two things, Jesus description of the first seal best fits the Anti-Christ not Satan. Second, The language used by Jesus indicates a future event and not a past event.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:37 am

Jericho wrote:Two things, Jesus description of the first seal best fits the Anti-Christ not Satan. Second, The language used by Jesus indicates a future event and not a past event.


Agreed.......good post
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Jericho on Fri Jun 07, 2013 8:43 am

shorttribber wrote:Agreed.......good post


Thank you shorttriber.

Jericho wrote:The is nothing good that comes from the seals being opened.


watching wrote:What about the fifth seal? Or the seventh seal?


I would like to restate my previous answer to this question. The fifth seal is the persecution of the saints by the anti-Christ. The seventh seal, preceding the silence in heaven, is fire falling to the earth, great storms, and a great earthquake. So yes I would say all seven seals are very destructive.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:00 am

there are two very possitve things that occur amid the destruction though of 5 & 7.

One is not just my opinion, but can be proven historically.....that persecution of the saints Always makes manifest the Power and Glory to God In and By the saints.

The Other IS my opinion, and that is..........the Seventh Seal Opens the Scroll, and Lays Open the Revelation........TO The Saints..........goats will be confounded, cold, selfish, rebellious and lawless.
But the Sheep Will become more Informed and Wise, hearts on fire for God more, selfless and obedient unto death.
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:43 am

Hi Jericho,

Here's how I see Matthew 24:

Matthew 24

King James Version (KJV)


24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


I believe in these verses Jesus is giving an overview from the time of Christ to the time of the END.

The Greek word for end here is "telos." This is in contrast to another word for end which is sometimes used. And that word is "syntelia" which means the time of the end, or consummation. But, in this case, we see the word "telos" which means END.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Jesus is obviously backtracking here from the time of Christ to the END again.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


At this point, Jesus is backtracking from the time of the AOD to apparently the END because we've reached the point were no flesh would be saved if the days were not shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Here Jesus is backtracking all the way back to the beginning because He is starting from verse 5 again and covering the time span from that point to the time of His return.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


At this point, Jesus is quite possibly backtracking once again, because He says immediately after the tribulation of those days. He does not say immediately after the "great" tribulation. So, it's hard to say which days Jesus was talking about. In other words, it's not clear whether this is referring to immediately after the tribulation of beginning of sorrows, or the great tribulation.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


Again, Jesus is backtracking here and telling the disciples/us what to look for.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Here Jesus is telling us to keep watch; for no one knows the day of the hour.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:36 pm

Concerning Matthew 24........

I know this is getting off topic, but I was just pondering the following verse.........

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


........and I just realized something that I think is worth noting.

The word translated as "after" also means "with."

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3326&t=KJV

Also, the word translated as "immediately" actually means "straightaway." It comes from the word "straight," so it could also mean directly.

See definition here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2112&t=KJV

So, it's actually possible that the above verse could translate as follow:

Moreover, straightaway with the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

See concordance here:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=24&v=1&t=KJV#conc/29

This would explain the discrepancy with Joel 2 among other scriptures.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Trying to get back to topic, I had thought to follow next with my views on the 6th seal and its last plagues, but since I see the 7th seal trumpets as coming to pass before the bowls of God’s wrath are poured out on the world, I’ll give my views on the trumpets first.

As I’ve said before, I believe the 7th seal was opened when our Lord came to this earth and that we are now in an interlude between His first appearance and the fulfillment of the events symbolized by the first trumpet to happen next. And I sincerely hope that doesn't happen till the very distant future since it might portend the third world war.

With the exception of the first trumpet event, which could very possibly happen before the anti-Christ appears on the scene, I believe the other events will be fulfilled during the 3 ½ years of his reign which will coincide with the 1260 days (42 months) when the two witnesses will be calling down plagues on the world (Rev 11:6) to get the anti-Christ to stop persecuting and killing the Saints.

This will be the end-time fulfillment (just prior to our Lord's second coming) of that which has been foreshadowed by the plagues called down on Egypt by Moses and Aaron. The two witnesses will come in the spirit of Moses and Aaron to call down plagues ( but this time on the whole world) to obtain the deliverance of God’s Saints.

The First Trumpet
Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.



This first trumpet event is comparable to the 7th plague of hail and fire that the Lord had Moses call down upon all the land of Egypt (Exodus 9:22-26), with the exception of the land of Goshen where the Israelites lived.

However, the effects of the first trumpet will be felt worldwide, and there’s no indication in Rev 8:7 that the saints will be spared from its effects as the Israelites were in Egypt.

More on the rest of the trumpets later.

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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:13 am

Hi Jericho,

I just wanted to let you know that I have found three references to the word "bow," quite by accident, just during the course of this thread.

Here is one that I just noticed this morning, while I was doing a study on the sun and the moon being darkened, as a follow up to what I had discovered last night.

But, in any case, here is a reference to the word "bow" that I just happened to stumble upon this morning.

Habakkuk 3

King James Version (KJV)


3 A prayer of Habakkuk the prophet upon Shigionoth.

2 O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

3 God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

7 I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction: and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.

8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?

9 Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.

10 The mountains saw thee, and they trembled: the overflowing of the water passed by: the deep uttered his voice, and lifted up his hands on high.

11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

14 Thou didst strike through with his staves the head of his villages: they came out as a whirlwind to scatter me: their rejoicing was as to devour the poor secretly.

15 Thou didst walk through the sea with thine horses, through the heap of great waters.

16 When I heard, my belly trembled; my lips quivered at the voice: rottenness entered into my bones, and I trembled in myself, that I might rest in the day of trouble: when he cometh up unto the people, he will invade them with his troops.

17 Although the fig tree shall not blossom, neither shall fruit be in the vines; the labour of the olive shall fail, and the fields shall yield no meat; the flock shall be cut off from the fold, and there shall be no herd in the stalls:

18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord, I will joy in the God of my salvation.

19 The Lord God is my strength, and he will make my feet like hinds' feet, and he will make me to walk upon mine high places. To the chief singer on my stringed instruments.


Here are the other two:

Zechariah 9:9-16

King James Version (KJV)


9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***.

10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;

13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.

15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.

16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.


Isaiah 66:15-21

King James Version (KJV)


15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord.

18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.


Have you seen any references to the word "bow" in connection with the anti-Christ anywhere in scripture?
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:53 am

watching wrote:Have you seen any references to the word "bow" in connection with the anti-Christ anywhere in scripture?


For those who believe that Christ is the one pictured as the "rider on the white horse"; I would like to ask this question:

If Christ is the rider on the white horse, then why is He not mentioned as being the rider of the horses that follow - like the black horse; red horse; or ashen horse?

I mean, Christ is described by John as being the One who is opening up the seals - it seems a very far reach to conclude that He is opening up the seals, only to show Himself as the rider of the white horse only. I don't think you can have it both ways.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby lamb7 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:59 am

watching wrote:Have you seen any references to the word "bow" in connection with the anti-Christ anywhere in scripture?


Could this be one? I know there are differing opinions on this scripture as to its timing, but I was always under the impression that Gog/Magog was a reflection of AC and His revived Rome. I could be wrong though. It's just that, as you use the bow as the anchor to your theories, I suspect the bow, here, has some relevance???

Ezekiel 39

39 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby watching on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:57 am

Hi Mr. Baldy and Lamb7,

I just want to say first of all that I am not trying to ascribe an identity to the rider of the white horse. I just simply wanted to point out certain words that were used and other ways that those words could be interpreted, as well as to point out some other scriptures for consideration.

lamb7 wrote:
watching wrote:Have you seen any references to the word "bow" in connection with the anti-Christ anywhere in scripture?


Could this be one? I know there are differing opinions on this scripture as to its timing, but I was always under the impression that Gog/Magog was a reflection of AC and His revived Rome. I could be wrong though. It's just that, as you use the bow as the anchor to your theories, I suspect the bow, here, has some relevance???

Ezekiel 39

39 “Son of man, prophesy against Gog and say: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshek and Tubal. 2 I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. 3 Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. 4 On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. 5 You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. 6 I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord.

7 “‘I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. 8 It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.


That is a good example, Lamb 7, I had not thought of that. And I was just honestly asking the question, because I had not looked for any examples of the word bow in connection to the AC/possible AC.

In fact, I hadn't looked for the examples of scripture that I had posted, I just happened to come across those by accident.

In any case, as I had mentioned to Jericho. It may be that certain scriptures are meant to be ambiguous, because regardless of what we think they might mean, the integrity of the scripture still remains intact.

I mean we all know that Jesus is coming, and we all know that the anti-Christ is coming, or will be revealed at some point.

Mr Baldy wrote:For those who believe that Christ is the one pictured as the "rider on the white horse"; I would like to ask this question:If Christ is the rider on the white horse, then why is He not mentioned as being the rider of the horses that follow - like the black horse; red horse; or ashen horse? I mean, Christ is described by John as being the One who is opening up the seals - it seems a very far reach to conclude that He is opening up the seals, only to show Himself as the rider of the white horse only. I don't think you can have it both ways.


Like I said, I'm not saying who I think the rider of the white horse is, but you bring up an interesting point. I had actually not considered the possibility that all four horses might be together. I was just looking at each of them individually. And like I said, I don't know who these horses belong to, but if you will notice the scripture I posted in Habakkuk 3, you will see that it mentions horses.

Here is the link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk%203&version=KJV

What's interesting to me, and what I'm understanding from verse 8, is that it seems as though God's horses bring about God's anger, as well as God's salvation.

See verse 8 below:

Habakkuk 3:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 Was the Lord displeased against the rivers? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea, that thou didst ride upon thine horses and thy chariots of salvation?


But just to be clear, I don't know if there is any connection between this verse and the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. I'm just posting the verse for consideration.

Also, there are four chariots mentioned in Zechariah 6. And again, I don't know if there is any connection, but the colors of the horses, do seem to be a very close match to the colors of the four horses in Revelation.

Here is Zechariah 6.

Zechariah 6

King James Version (KJV)


6 And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass.

2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

4 Then I answered and said unto the angel that talked with me, What are these, my lord?

5 And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth.

6 The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country.

7 And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth.

8 Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.

9 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

14 And the crowns shall be to Helem, and to Tobijah, and to Jedaiah, and to Hen the son of Zephaniah, for a memorial in the temple of the Lord.

15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Ready1 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:46 am

watching wrote:Have you seen any references to the word "bow" in connection with the anti-Christ anywhere in scripture?


Just to throw out a little different wrinkle.... Some would hold that the "bow" of Revelation 6:2 would be a covenant as referenced in the following passage in Genesis where God establishes the rainbow. This would then be consistent with the passage of Daniel 9:27.


Rev 6:2 And I saw. And behold a white horse! And he sitting on it had a bow. And a crown was given to him, and he went forth conquering and to conquer.


Gen 9:9 Behold! I, even I, establish My covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
Gen 9:10 and with every living creature that is with you, of the birds, of the cattle, and of every animal of the earth with you; from all that go out from the ark, to every animal of the earth.
Gen 9:11 And I will establish My covenant with you. Neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood. Neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
Gen 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between Me and you and every living creature with you, for everlasting generations:
Gen 9:13 I set my rainbow in the cloud. And it shall be a token of a covenant between Me and the earth.


Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.


For your consideration, since the Revelation 6:2 passage is the opening of the first seal, and since the seals are in effect, judgments, then what proceeds by its nature is bad, not good. I do not see Christ on the white horse, rather I see a false christ who is out to deceive the whole world. Following him are the products of his deceit, war, famine, and death.

Not dogmatic, just for your consideration... :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
Just observing.

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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby lamb7 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:13 am

I know I digress off topic here, It seems even now, this fraud deceives us in just the words that describe him. How much more will his very presence deceive so many? The debate about this rider, itself, is most telling and as trivial as it seems here on this forum in that we will state his identity does nothing to hinder our salvation, I say that it is very important if just the words about him could bring us to debate and promote him to the same position as our Lord. We should not be so puffed up so as to judge those who will turn their faith away from the true Messiah to this lying Beast if we, ourselves cannot recognize the counterfeit even now with the Word of our Lord before hand.

I agree with Mr. Baldy. It is the Lamb who is opening these seals, the ONLY one who can. Can He be in Heaven opening the Seals and at the same time, be one of them? I know anything is possible with our Lord, but our Lord is not a Lord of confusion either.

It is the 6th Seal that signals the Second coming with signs in the heavens. How can our Lord be on the Earth, as the White Horseman, the 1st Seal, conquering, if the 6th Seal reveals His coming, “The Day of the Lord?


Revelation 6:12-16
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!



This man on the white horse precedes a very dark and evil trio, which eventually leads up to the Day of the Lord, our Lord is no where on the scene until His second coming so timing most certainly dictates the identity.

Although the bow is used in reference to God in His wrath in the many scriptures you have put forth, Watching, our Lord carries the sword and is representative of an up close, fearless, face to face battle as opposed to, imho, Antichrist’s use of a more sniper-like weapon with the bow. And lastly, if it is the weapon that is the clue, we could very well fathom that the Red Horse, who is given a large sword could represent our Lord as well. Our Lord stated that He did not come to bring peace, but division and a sword. It is obvious that we must look at more than just the bow as the clue to who this white rider is.

Revelation 6:3-4
3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other. To him was given a large sword.

Matthew 10:34
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Luke 12:51
51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:28 am

Here is my view on the rest of the trumpets:

Rev 8: 8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood.[a] A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.

12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.


I believe that the first plague of Egypt when God corrupted the water of the Nile and of all the canals and pools into blood foreshadows the 2d and 3rd trumpet plagues.

However, the coming trumpet plagues, as scripture shows above, will be on a much larger scale. They will turn the water of the sea into blood and a third of all the fish will die and also a third of the world’s ships will be destroyed.

And perhaps the 4th trumpet calamity is the precursor of what will happen to the sun and stars as they collapse when the heavens are "rolled up." Rev 6:12

Isaiah 34:4 All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.



Fifth and Sixth Trumpets:

Rev 9
9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the four horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand. I heard their number.


While the 2d, 3rd, and 4th trumpets primarily destroy or corrupt the natural environment, the 5th and 6th trumpet plagues are directed at human beings – nonbelievers — “those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”

I say this because even though Rev 9:13 is not specific as to whether the “third of mankind” to be killed includes believers also, some OT scriptures specifically record that God protected the Israelites from some of the plagues He called down on Egypt. Ex 8:20, 9:22, 10:21. Therefore, I believe that the saints will most probably be protected from all of the trumpet judgments, and I believe Ps 91:5-8 speaks to this:
-
5 Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.


The plagues of Egypt were regional. Only Egypt was affected. The 7th trumpet plagues will be global, affecting the whole world. Up to this point, the devastation will still be only partial to give the survivors an opportunity to repent IMO.

However, the 7 bowls of God’s wrath will be of a cosmic nature and will bring about the complete destruction of the earth and the whole universe.

The good news is that at the 7th trumpet, the saints will be out of here before that happens. :grin: :grin:
Last edited by Sonbeam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:07 pm

lamb7 wrote: I say that it is very important if just the words about him could bring us to debate and promote him to the same position as our Lord.


Howdy lamb7,
A "promotion" is not the ideal way to express the variable ideas in identity of who is Represented by the first rider really.
It's not as though the actual rider is being advanced in character or authority....it's just different opinions of who he may or may not represent and that's all.

lamb7 wrote:I agree with Mr. Baldy. It is the Lamb who is opening these seals, the ONLY one who can. Can He be in Heaven opening the Seals and at the same time, be one of them? I know anything is possible with our Lord, but our Lord is not a Lord of confusion either.


Keep in mind though, the events being seen by John are in a vision. We cannot reasonably argue that since Christ is the Lamb (in the vision) that he could not open the seal and have a representation of Himself also seen Within the Same vision.
i don't believe the rider is representative of Christ, but i do not discount the soundness of the idea that it Could be.

Keep in mind also the possibility that the if first rider is representing Christ, it does not mean that the first rider would begin his course at some entirely future 7 year trib. Those who see the rider as Christ, view that first seal as already long ago historically, so there is no conflict in that regard to Christ's representation in the first seal and His later Coming at Armageddon.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:49 pm

lamb7 wrote: I agree with Mr. Baldy. It is the Lamb who is opening these seals, the ONLY one who can. Can He be in Heaven opening the Seals and at the same time, be one of them? I know anything is possible with our Lord, but our Lord is not a Lord of confusion either.


Shorty wrote: "Keep in mind though, the events being seen by John are in a vision. We cannot reasonably argue that since Christ is the Lamb (in the vision) that he could not open the seal and have a representation of Himself also seen Within the Same vision.
i don't believe the rider is representative of Christ, but i do not discount the soundness of the idea that it Could be."


Hi Shorty :mrgreen:

If I may butt in here.......you state that: "We cannot reasonably argue that since Christ is the Lamb (in the vision) that He could not open the seal and have a representation of Himself also see within the same vision"

I beg to differ, I believe that we have a considerable argument that it is not Christ. Let me mention Revelation 1:11-19:

“Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” 12) Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13) and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14) His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15) His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16) In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 17) When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18) and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19 )Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

In the aforementioned passages of Scripture we have Christ commanding John to "Write in a book what you see" - this is Christ who is seen by John prior to his command by this same Christ to "Come up here" in Revelation 4 - as Christ is seated on His Throne:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne."

The reasonable argument comes in where we have Christ seated on His Throne in all of His Glory and Majesty describing Himself as the sacrificial Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the World, being the only one worthy to open the seals. This rider of the white horse is "given" a crown, which works in harmony with Revelation 13:2 and Revelation 17:12-13:

Revelation 13:2 - "And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority."

Revelation 17:12-13: "12) The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour. 13) These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast."

Now let's take a look at Revelation 5:1-7: "I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. 2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” 3) And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. 4) Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; 5) and one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.” 6) And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. 7) And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne."

In the aforementioned passages of Scripture, we can clearly see that the coming Antichrist is "given" a crown - and that by the power of Satan and his coming final "Beast Empire". This same crown that is "given" is for the one who will go out "conquering" and to "conquer" (Revelation 6:2). This is in direct contrast to our Lord, who has already been found worthy to be the "only One" to open the book and to break the seals to reveal this very Revelation of Himself to John. He doesn't need to be "given" a crown - He is God in the Flesh. Furthermore, this would be (Revelation 5) the "only representation" of God describing Himself in the SON as being worthy of taking the scroll to break the seals - and this is definitely in contrast to what you have mentioned - in that you have stated that Christ is (could be) showing a representation of Himself as He is also seated on His Throne, and showing Himself as the rider of the white horse.

You see, I don't believe that one can have it both ways...either it is Christ who is describing these events as they take place - as He is the Subject of whom is being revealed in the vision; the Only One found Worthy to open the Seals as the Sacrificial Lamb; and the Final Judge as He brings forth His Kingdom. Therefore the rider of the horses who are mentioned prior to His Revelation, have to be those who will carryout His Sovereign Will - and not He Himself.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:44 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:The reasonable argument comes in where we have Christ seated on His Throne in all of His Glory and Majesty describing Himself as the sacrificial Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the World, being the only one worthy to open the seals. This rider of the white horse is "given" a crown, which works in harmony with Revelation 13:2 and Revelation 17:12-13:


Hi Mr. B,

What i should have said, is that it can't be "reasonably argued" that it is Impossible to be a representation of Christ (as the first rider). I'm mistaken in that you have made a very clear and reasonable argument to the contrary, and i agree that it is not a representation of Christ.
Now having said that, i must admit that i could be wrong, and it i could very well represent Christ, i just don't think so.

Having also said that, i don't feel that it represents A Future 7 year tribulation Antichrist either, But it could represent Antichrist in the Historicist understanding of Antichrist.

Mr Baldy wrote:You see, I don't believe that one can have it both ways...either it is Christ who is describing these events as they take place - as He is the Subject of whom is being revealed in the vision; the Only One found Worthy to open the Seals as the Sacrificial Lamb; and the Final Judge as He brings forth His Kingdom.


Can you tell me who is represented by the Mighty Angel in Rev 10? I know that goes beyond the scope the seals in a general sense, but do you feel the Mighty Angel represents Christ?
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:48 am

shorttribber wrote:Can you tell me who is represented by the Mighty Angel in Rev 10? I know that goes beyond the scope the seals in a general sense, but do you feel the Mighty Angel represents Christ?


Hi Shorty :grin: !

Ok, let's take a look at Revelation 10:

"The Angel and the Little Book"

10)" I saw another strong angel coming down out of heaven, clothed with a cloud; and the rainbow was upon his head, and his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire; 2) and he had in his hand a little book which was open. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left on the land; 3) and he cried out with a loud voice, as when a lion roars; and when he had cried out, the seven peals of thunder uttered their voices. 4) When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them.” 5) Then the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to heaven, 6) and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things in it, and the earth and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it, that there will be delay no longer, 7) but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets. 8) Then the voice which I heard from heaven, I heard again speaking with me, and saying, “Go, take the book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the land.” 9) So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he *said to me, “Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.” 10) I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. 11) And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”


Okay, there are a couple of things that stand out to me in the aforementioned passage of Scripture that would indicate that this is not Christ. First, if you'll notice in verse 1 that it states that John sees "another strong angel." This implies that there is a hierarchy among the angles of Heaven in that the description of this particular "strong angel" appears to be more majestic than others who have been described - apparently they lift weights too :mrgreen: in a spiritual sense that is - not to mention the word "another" is being used. Then this same angel swears by "Him" who created heaven and earth and the things in them - this is none other than Christ, and not the angel himself. Finally John is commanded from the voice in heaven to take the little book from the hand of this angel - the angel tells John to eat it, and John describes himself as taking it from the angel and not Christ.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:42 am

Thankyou MrB,

Here is why i believe this Is a vision of Christ instead of as you understand it.

this is moved from my Shorttrib/Prewrath thread......

Point
1. vs 1...Look at who the mighty angel/messenger is......it's Christ Himself! hold your judgement now and just wait and see the proof, you'll see that it is in fact Christ.
2. vs 2...Here He is, standing as the owner of earth and sea and everything in it.
3. vs 3...The Lion of the Tribe of Judah cries out and the seven thunders respond.

4. vs 5-6..........................He swore by Himself....................................

Heb 6
13For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

5. vs...7 What mystery? The most fitting answer is the mystery of His people (Jew and Gentile) being mysteriously gathered together as a bride when corruption mysteriously puts on incorruption and as one mysterious body mysteriously fly away to meet our lord in air!

**********************This response is continued in next post******************************
Last edited by shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:29 am

Mr Baldy wrote: And he *said to me, “Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey.” 10) I took the little book out of the angel’s hand and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet as honey; and when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. 11) And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”


One Very Important point must be considered regarding verse eleven. The version you've quoted from says "and They said to me".

Here is the King James version...

11 And......... he ...........said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Why is this so important?

Because the Words OF The Mighty Angel (Messenger) continues on into Chapter 11 where we read............

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and ...........the angel stood, saying............., Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And .................I.................. will give power unto...............................my........................................ two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Following the conversation between John and the Mighty angel/Messenger all the way through vs 3 of chap.11, you will discover it is the Mighty Messenger speaking. Who, may I ask is able to call the two witnesses, "My Witnesses?"

There is a single Voice that is Speaking in the previous chapter at verse 11, or the words "I/My" would be "We/Our".

the Mighty Messenger(Angel), is Christ.
Last edited by shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:45 am

Somewhat similar expressions are "the redeeming angel", המלאך הגאל, hamalak haggoel (Gen 48:16); "the angel of his (the Lord's) presence", מלאך פניו, malak panaiv (Isaiah 63:9); "the angel of the covenant", מלאך הברית, malakh habrit (Malachi 3:1); and in the Septuagint "Angel (or Messenger) of Great Counsel", μεγάλης βουλῆς ἄγγελος, megalēs boulēs angelos (Isaiah 9:6).[5]



Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall .......................suddenly come to his temple,.......................... even the ........messenger of the covenant,........... whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

2 But.....WHO...... may abide the day of his coming? and .............WHO shall Stand ...............when he appeareth?



Rev 11
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and.................. measure the temple of God,........ and the altar, .................and them that worship................... therein.



2 But .......WHO....... may abide the day of his coming? and .............WHO shall Stand ...............when he appeareth?


Rev 6
17 For the great day of................ his wrath is come;............... and............ WHO shall be able to Stand........?
Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and ................thy wrath is come, ...................and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Last edited by shorttribber on Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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