All seals have been opened except the 6th

(heavily moderated)

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby lamb7 on Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:45 am

lamb7 wrote: I say that it is very important if just the words about him could bring us to debate and promote him to the same position as our Lord.


Howdy lamb7,
A "promotion" is not the ideal way to express the variable ideas in identity of who is Represented by the first rider really.
It's not as though the actual rider is being advanced in character or authority....it's just different opinions of who he may or may not represent and that's all.


1 Corinthians 1:10
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.


Who he may or may not be is advanced in both character and authority if we are assigning him the position of Jesus Christ, in theory or in our hearts. Once the theory is accepted, then it is only natural to assign authority in our hearts. And if this is possible in theory, then the heart can be open to many other deceits and heresies before the fact and that is all it takes for Satan to commence further tactics. The whole point of Antichrist is deception and to mimic our Lord Jesus Christ and many will be deceived to just this belief to their doom. This deception needs only the slightest breach in our armour, just enough truth mixed with lies. This is Christianity 101 as far as I am concerned and is the ploy of every false prophet or teacher.

lamb7 wrote:I agree with Mr. Baldy. It is the Lamb who is opening these seals, the ONLY one who can. Can He be in Heaven opening the Seals and at the same time, be one of them? I know anything is possible with our Lord, but our Lord is not a Lord of confusion either.


Keep in mind though, the events being seen by John are in a vision. We cannot reasonably argue that since Christ is the Lamb (in the vision) that he could not open the seal and have a representation of Himself also seen Within the Same vision.
i don't believe the rider is representative of Christ, but i do not discount the soundness of the idea that it Could be.


ST, only one can be truth and we are to be in unity of the knowledge and understanding of God’s Word. Dragging it around in such a wishy washy way is not edifying for any of us. It is either representative of Christ or it is not. And it is most important to know which one. The fact that we debate it or have differing opinions is the very setting Satan loves, for it gives platform to any and all views, creating division and opening the mind to all sorts of lies. So while debating is beneficial it can also be devastating and should not be taken lightly in any respect.

Keep in mind also the possibility that the if first rider is representing Christ, it does not mean that the first rider would begin his course at some entirely future 7 year trib. Those who see the rider as Christ, view that first seal as already long ago historically, so there is no conflict in that regard to Christ's representation in the first seal and His later Coming at Armageddon.

Yes there is conflict, much conflict. I stated that the Seals can be both representative of historical trends where those trends can be a foreshadowing of a future time, which is used throughout the Bible. So, yes, both can be true of the trends the riders represent, but now we are talking of the riders. As Baldy stated, if Christ is the 1st Rider, meaning they have identities, then who are the other three? And for those who believe it is Jesus Christ and believe the Seals are in the past, then one would be stating that Jesus Christ has already come.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.



So, what do we make of the 6th Seal? Christ came and then comes again? Now we have confusion. We know the signs in the heavens are that which announce His coming, so again; we cannot have Him already come in the 1st Seal or past and then coming again in the 6th Seal.

Revelation 6:12-16
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!


And it isn’t the fact that Christ couldn’t be both opening the Seals and be represented in one of them, as I stated, anything is possible with our Lord, but common sense begs that if the Seals are linear, then Christ cannot be conquering earlier than when He is suppose to come at the Second Advent. That is the point and confusion in believing He is the 1st Rider of the Seals.
lamb7
 
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:54 am

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:57 pm

lamb7 wrote:Who he may or may not be is advanced in both character and authority if we are assigning him the position of Jesus Christ, in theory or in our hearts.


Who would be assigning the Loser the Position of the King of kings simply by making a determination as to who a text may refer too? The Loser will remain the Loser either way, and Our Lord remains unchanged by any errant opinion we may have.

lamb7 wrote:ST, only one can be truth and we are to be in unity of the knowledge and understanding of God’s Word.


Who is in error may also be in unity, must we have unity for the sake of unity? Unity is good when Absolute truth is held and known.

lamb7 wrote:The fact that we debate it or have differing opinions is the very setting Satan loves, for it gives platform to any and all views, creating division and opening the mind to all sorts of lies.


That's what the Pope said as justification to slay Protestants.................for Hundreds of years.
The "Unity of the Faith" will be manifested by God in due time i believe, until then we must be willing to be found in error and do our best to walk with our hearts and minds open to correction.

lamb7 wrote:And for those who believe it is Jesus Christ and believe the Seals are in the past, then one would be stating that Jesus Christ has already come.


Must it be that we choose past or future only.....can it not be so that some of them may have opened in the past, and some are yet future?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:36 am

THE SIXTH SEAL

6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”


Rev 6:12-14 records the final events that will happen when the last bowl of God’s wrath is poured on the world. This cataclysmic end-of-the-world account of what will happen to the earth and its inhabitants is the reason why I view the 6th seal as being opened last. But the good news is that the saints are not appointed to undergo God's wrath, so we will be gathered to Him before all of this happens. :grin:

The details on the rest of the bowls that will precede these cosmic events are not given till Rev Chap 16.

Here’s how Matt 24:29 and Isaiah 13:10, 13, 24:19, 30:26, and 34:4 also describe the destruction of the earth a result of God’s wrath.

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken


Isa 13:10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place. NIV


Isa 24:19 The earth is broken up, the earth is split asunder, the earth is violently shaken.
20 The earth reels like a drunkard, it sways like a hut in the wind; so heavy upon it is the guilt of its rebellion that it falls—never to rise again.


Isa 34:4 All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree. NIV
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:04 am

Sonbeam wrote:Rev 6:12-14 records the final events that will happen when the last bowl of God’s wrath is poured on the world. This cataclysmic end-of-the-world account of what will happen to the earth and its inhabitants is the reason why I view the 6th seal as being opened last. But the good news is that the saints are not appointed to undergo God's wrath, so we will be gathered to Him before all of this happens.


the shaking of the earth is not as "Great" at the sixth seal as that shaking described when the Final Bowl of God's wrath is poured out.

But the shaking at the sixth seal is very much the same as that described at the end of Rev. 11.......and these ARE describing the SAME Event, And SAME Time Period.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was........ a great earthquake;........ and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were...... moved ....out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of .....the mountains.......;
16 And said to ........the mountains....... and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of ...............his wrath is come...........; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11
13 And the same hour was there .............a great earthquake..............., and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and ....................thy wrath is come................, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


When the seventh and final bowl is poured out, there will not be one mountain nor island that remains.......meaning......the final and GREATEST Earthquake recorded at the seventh Bowl/Vial is not the same as One Recorded at the Sixth seal.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:31 am

Hi shorttriber! :grin:

Have you ever heard of the "big crunch" theory?

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/deepspace/ ... nergy.html

I believe this is what the phrase in Rev 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up is very possibly describing -- a collapse of the universe.

And also that as this happens, "every mountain and island" will certainly be "removed from its place" (Rev 6:14) as in being dissolved.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:37 am

Sonbeam wrote:Hi shorttriber! :grin:

Have you ever heard of the "big crunch" theory?

http://www.nasa.gov/missions/deepspace/ ... nergy.html

I believe this is what the phrase in Rev 6:14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up is very possibly describing -- a collapse of the universe.

And also that as this happens, "every mountain and island" will certainly be "removed from its place" (Rev 6:14) as in being dissolved.


I'll check out the link....i've heard of that very briefly i think before.

But a mountain "Moved out of place" is still just a "Moved Mountain"...............But a Mountain Eliminated entirely along with Every Island is something different IMO.....i could be wrong.....time will tell.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:50 am

Hey again Sonbeam,

What do you think of the comparison of Rev 6:12-17 and Rev 11:13-18?

What do you do with this following verse? There is only One Time when Rewards will be given by Christ, Who has his Reward WITH HIM.........When He COMES.

Rev 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is when the gathering occurs Sonbeam........at the sounding of the Seventh/Last Trump.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:06 am

This is when the gathering occurs Sonbeam........at the sounding of the Seventh/Last Trump.


I agree with you shorttribber. Our gathering to the Lord will occur at the 7th last trump, but prior to the pouring of God's wrath described by the 7 bowls under the 6th seal.

And this is where we disagree I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe the 6th and 7th seals are open in sequence and the saints will be here through it all??
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:06 pm

Sonbeam wrote:And this is where we disagree I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe the 6th and 7th seals are open in sequence and the saints will be here through it all??


We will exit the earth exactly as you say, IMO, at the seventh trump. But where our understanding varies is that i understand the seals as a Preface and overview to the Main Vision.....just as the preface of any book covers the primary details of the volume from beginning to end.

The seventh seal does follow the sixth, but only with a Definitive Interlude dividing them to SHOW IN DETAIL......................WHO Shall Stand..........when God pours out his wrath.

We will stand because we will leave the face of the earth on the same day His wrath begins, and the 144,000 will be protected ON earth By God, IMO, During His wrath as it is poured out.................and that should last,IMO, 30-75 days.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:40 pm

Now I’m really confused as to what you believe shorttribber. :dunno: :grin:

If you say we leave at the 7th last/trump on the same day as His wrath begins, and the scriptures are very clear that God’s wrath is unleashed during the 7 bowls under the 6th seal, then you'd also have to see that the last two seals are opened out of sequence IMO.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:27 pm

I'll answer later tonight....i'm headed for my shop ok?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:47 pm

Sonbeam wrote:Now I’m really confused as to what you believe shorttribber.
If you say we leave at the 7th last/trump on the same day as His wrath begins, and the scriptures are very clear that God’s wrath is unleashed during the 7 bowls under the 6th seal, then you'd also have to see that the last two seals are opened out of sequence IMO.

The sixth seal is only a PREVIEW/Preface of the Greater content of the Vision. God's wrath is not CONTAINED in the Sixth Seal.......It is only being Shown Briefly that, God's wrath Immediately Follows the signs being Quickly shown John by the opening of the sixth seal.
Then the interlude that shows Who Shall Stand (144,000 and church)...........THEN.......When the Seventh seal is opened...........The Full Understanding of the Book of Revelation will be Made Known.....to the Sheep only IMO......BECAUSE the SCROLL Will the Be Allowed to OPEN FOR US.

The trumpets, temple vision,two witnesses, beast, the woman, mystery Babylon, the bowls.......EVERY PART....of the remaining.........DETAILED VISION..........Will be FULLY REVEALED to US......THEN.....When the Scroll is OPENED.

All who will understand, WILL Understand at the AOD................WHEN THE..............SEVENTH SEAL OPENS.

Since the Seals are, IMO, a condensed OVERVIEW/PREVIEW, the AOD Occurs, IMO, NEAR the End of the 4th seal or the Beginning of the 5th...............so..............the Entire 3.5 year Great Tribulation is BRIEFLY PREVIEWED by the 4th thru 6th seals.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:08 pm

Let me explain it in this manner also.
If i were to pinpoint an event that we would be waiting for right now in the Pages of the Book of Revelation it would be this verse.....

Rev 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

This is the Start of the Second Half of the Confirmation of The Covenant (The Abrahamic/Everlasting) Covenant. This should coincide at least in a very near proximity with the AOD, the sealing of the 144,000 and Knowing the Two Witnesses Identities, and of course, the Loser being cast from the heights of heaven to posses the Coming Man.

Eight is also the Number that speaks in a type of.............. Covenant with God.

Do you see what Chapter it is?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:28 am

Hi ST!

We are in agreement about the saints being taken out at the 7th last trumpet, and that the anti-Christ, the witnesses, etc. will be fully revealed to us as the 3 1/2 years reign of the man of sin progresses, but I still believe what I wrote about the 7th seal being opened first.

So I think we have a few differences. :grin: The good news is that we both believe the Lord will come back and take us to be with him forever.

:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:38 am

Rev 15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.


The plagues mentioned above refer to the bowls of God’s wrath. The way I see it, these could not be the labeled asthe last ones if the plagues of the 7th seal were still in the future to follow thereafter. Revelation Chapter 16 then gives us the details on each of the 7 last plagues.

The Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath

Rev 16
1. Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.”

2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood.

8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.


While the events of the first 3 bowls are catastrophic enough, if that did not kill all life on this earth, the events of the fourth bowl will as the earth is destroyed.

Isa 30:26 speaks of the sunlight being “seven times brighter” “in the day of great slaughter” which gives us a better idea about the intensity of the sun's heat and why it will scorch and sear people as envisioned when the 4th bowl is poured. This is followed by darkness falling upon the beast’s kingdom, which is the whole earth. This scenario appears to describe our sun becoming a giant star as it burns out and then collapses.

Isa 30:25-26
25 In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill. 26 The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the LORD binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.


Here's a simplified account of what might be happening to the sun as the fourth bowl is poured (taking into account that passage of"billions of years" is distinct from our Lord's perspective :grin: ):

http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudent ... t_912.html

And a more detailed description on the life cycle of the sun here:

http://cde.nwc.edu/SCI2108/course_docum ... ecycle.htm

The 6th and 7th bowls accounts just go into greater detail about what will have already happened as the universe collapses IMO.

:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:46 pm

Sonbeam wrote:The plagues mentioned above refer to the bowls of God’s wrath. The way I see it, these could not be the labeled as “the last” ones if the plagues of the 7th seal were still in the future to follow thereafter. Revelation Chapter 16 then gives us the details on each of the 7 last plagues.


The confusion your having regarding the sequence is that you're still not receiving the Principal Idea and Use intended OF the seals themselves.
Once again......the seals Only Preface or Preview the Greater Vision.

The actual gathering does not Occur....in REAL Actual Time........ AT the Sixth seal and then the Seventh seal Follows, no.
The remaining seals are a Brief Preview of what will Occur in REAL TIME up untill the Seventh Trump........Then the Bowls will be poured out.
What we are waiting for is the AOD, etc. etc., The Seventh Seal Will Open, Along with Our understanding.
Then will follow, in perfect sequence, Trumps 1,2,3,4,5,6 and 7........all in the space of 3.5 years.......Then the Bowls.

The trumpets and Bowls stand alone and in sequence.................All the Seals are just a Preview of Them. As you would read a Preface at the Beginning of any book....to FORETELL the Greater Content of the Main Body of the Book.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:19 am

Hi shorttribber, :grin:

I understand your view. I just don't agree with it.

Since 7 is God's number, I see the 7th seal as having already been opened when Christ was born, and the 7th trumpet judgments yet to be played out in the future. Therefore, I believe we are in an interlude right now, with the next major event to be fulfilled to be either the revealing of the anti-Christ or the events described by the 1st trumpet.

I see the 2d coming of the Lord at the last trumpet, and the saints being caught up with Him then PRIOR to the pouring out of God's wrath.

I know you don't see it that way, so we just have to agree to disagree OK?

:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:31 am

Sonbeam wrote:Hi shorttribber, :grin:

I understand your view. I just don't agree with it.

Since 7 is God's number, I see the 7th seal as having already been opened when Christ was born, and the 7th trumpet judgments yet to be played out in the future. Therefore, I believe we are in an interlude right now, with the next major event to be fulfilled to be either the revealing of the anti-Christ or the events described by the 1st trumpet.

I see the 2d coming of the Lord at the last trumpet, and the saints being caught up with Him then PRIOR to the pouring out of God's wrath.

I know you don't see it that way, so we just have to agree to disagree OK?

:blessyou:


I see your idea as possible and reasonable.....and Could be true........we will all rejoice before him when Christ comes, and be blessed beyond measure when we all understand and know as we are known.


Oh.....and bless you too :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
User avatar
shorttribber
 
Posts: 5612
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 pm
Location: Not in San Antonio!

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:49 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam,

and then this:

Revelation 20:4-10

"4) Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6) Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. 7) When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8) and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9) And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


If you'll notice in the aforementioned verses of Scripture, we don't have an exact timing of "those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God" or "those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand" - but, we are given the fact that they come to life and reign with Christ for a thousand years. "This is the first resurrection".

So, base on the fact that they "come to life" and "this is the first resurrection"; can we assume that this occurs at His coming? Another question to you is that it appears to be quite obvious that at His Coming we are gathered to Him as He Returns, or do you believe that the martyred Saints have a separate timing as being resurrected - although it may still be considered the 1st Resurrection? Nevertheless, how is this still not a "literal thousand year reign with Christ on this earth" - and if not on Earth, where are they at, and where is Christ "coming" to?

Thank you for your response Sonbeam, in advance :grin:


Mr Baldy, :grin:

If you are still reading this thread I'm going to give you my view on the questions you asked above. Better late than never, huh?

I see two types of believers in the text above: 1) the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and 2) those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.

The first group are definitely identified as having been martyred, but we are not told that the second group were martyred/killed but that they in effect stayed true to God and His Word. I believe this can be said of the saints of all time.

Therefore, I believe these two groups that are mentioned are the entire body of Christ, and that together, in the order described in 1 thess 4:15-17, will take part in the first resurrection at the Lord’s second coming. Heb 11:39 implies that this is what is going to happen:

Heb ll: 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.


I cannot see a “literal” thousand year reign on this earth because 1) Christ said His kingdom is not of this world 2) at His coming, the saints will be in spiritual glorified bodies that will be incorruptible and in need of absolutely nothing this world has to offer 3) this world is perishable and will be destroyed at His coming 4) God will create new heavens and a new earth where He will reign with the saints Isa 60:19, 66:22, Rev 21:23.

As to where the resurrected saints will be after our Lord gathers them in the air, I believe they will be outside this universe as it is being destroyed by God. At this time the saints will be with Him, and wherever He is that will be "heaven" until He creates a new heaven and a new earth for them to inhabit.


:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:56 am

I see your idea as possible and reasonable.....and Could be true........we will all rejoice before him when Christ comes, and be blessed beyond measure when we all understand and know as we are known.


Oh.....and bless you too :grin:


Yes!! regardless of any of our views on the end times, we will all rejoice before our Lord when He comes back!! This is our blessed hope!!

God's abundant blessings to you too shorttribber :grin:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:25 pm

Hi Sonbeam :grin:

Lets take a look at what you have wrote:

I see two types of believers in the text above: 1) the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and 2) those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.

The first group are definitely identified as having been martyred, but we are not told that the second group were martyred/killed but that they in effect stayed true to God and His Word. I believe this can be said of the saints of all time.


Now lets compare what you have written with Scripture. If you'll notice in Revelation 20:4 we are given "two types" of believers as you have mentioned - but where I believe that you are in error is that both of these "groups" are definitely killed in some way. It is the souls that is seen by John the Reveal-er. One group is martyred by being beheaded, and the other group was killed somehow, because they did not worship the beast; his image; nor received the mark on their head or hand - this is definitely during the reign of Antichrist, and not representative of saints of all time.

You also wrote this:

I cannot see a “literal” thousand year reign on this earth because 1) Christ said His kingdom is not of this world 2) at His coming, the saints will be in spiritual glorified bodies that will be incorruptible and in need of absolutely nothing this world has to offer 3) this world is perishable and will be destroyed at His coming 4) God will create new heavens and a new earth where He will reign with the saints Isa 60:19, 66:22, Rev 21:23.

As to where the resurrected saints will be after our Lord gathers them in the air, I believe they will be outside this universe as it is being destroyed by God. At this time the saints will be with Him, and wherever He is that will be "heaven" until He creates a new heaven and a new earth for them to inhabit.


In your aforementioned comments - I wholeheartedly respectfully disagree. Scripture is quite clear that there will be a "literal" thousand year reign of Christ. The Books of Revelation (20) and Isaiah (65) are good examples. Scripture also gives ample evidence that Christ is "Coming" to Earth, and where He is, we will be also. Here are just a few Scriptures: (Jude 14; Revelation 19:14; 2 Thessalonians 1:10; 1 Thessalonians 3:13).

1 Thessalonians 3:13 states this: "so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints." It doesn't get any clearer than that.

There is no Scriptural evidence that would suggest that the resurrected saints will be "outside this universe" after we are gathered unto Him.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:57 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam :grin:

Lets take a look at what you have wrote:

I see two types of believers in the text above: 1) the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and 2) those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.

The first group are definitely identified as having been martyred, but we are not told that the second group were martyred/killed but that they in effect stayed true to God and His Word. I believe this can be said of the saints of all time.


Now lets compare what you have written with Scripture. If you'll notice in Revelation 20:4 we are given "two types" of believers as you have mentioned - but where I believe that you are in error is that both of these "groups" are definitely killed in some way. It is the souls that is seen by John the Reveal-er. One group is martyred by being beheaded, and the other group was killed somehow, because they did not worship the beast; his image; nor received the mark on their head or hand - this is definitely during the reign of Antichrist, and not representative of saints of all time.




Hi Mr. B! :grin:

The fact that it is the souls of the believers that John sees IMO doesn’t mean anything other than all of those souls/saints he saw had died, either martyred or through a natural death (or had “died” by having shed their body of flesh in the twinkling of an eye at the Lord’s coming).

There is only one resurrection of the righteous mentioned in the bible as I see it. Therefore, the “first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:5 has to include all the saints of all time. NIV

Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. NIV”


John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. NIV


Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”


Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


Therefore that all those souls “came to life” simply means that they were all resurrected at the same time (in the order Paul mentioned in 1 Thes 4) during the first resurrection.

Have you come across any scriptures that specifically say there will be two resurrections of the righteous Mr B?
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:55 pm

Hi Sonbeam :grin: !

Now let's do take a look at what you have written.

But first, I want to answer your question, as you ask this:

Have you come across any scriptures that specifically say there will be two resurrections of the righteous Mr B?


Sonbeam, I have never said that there were two resurrections of the righteous. First of all you have to understand that there is an "order" of resurrections which occur; or a "series" of resurrections that occur - and they are still considered to be a part of the 1st resurrection. I'll provide Scripture, as I attempt to explain my point.

1) "After" Christ was resurrected, some of those saints who were buried came to life, and appeared to others in Jerusalem. (Matthew 27:51-53) Scripture isn't clear as to what happened to these saints - but there is no evidence that they lived on Earth and died again after this resurrection.

2) We have the resurrection of the Two Witnesses. (Revelation 11:7-12) This particular passage of Scripture is clearly a different resurrection of we who will be gathered unto Him upon His Return.

3) Then we have the resurrection of those who have been Martyred - by being beheaded, and those who were killed for their testimony of Jesus and the Word of God. (Revelation 20:4) - As I have mentioned, there is no specific time-frame that Scripture provides, that this particular body of believers are resurrected - however, Scripture is clear that they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Scripture is also very clear that this is a part of the 1st resurrection. So I strongly believe that it can be inferred, that this particular resurrection is very likely to occur at His Coming - although Scripture is not clear about this.

You also mention the following:"

Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. NIV”


and this:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. NIV


Sonbeam, thank you for providing the aforementioned passages of Scripture, as I will prove my point with what you have provided. First, if you'll notice - there is absolutely no mention at all that the resurrection(s) that you have mentioned, which are of the righteous, and the wicked HAVE TO OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME. This has been an "assumption" for many who have simply "read into" Scripture, and mostly to prove a point of faulty eschatology. Revelation 20:5-6 is very clear that there will be TWO separate Resurrections - one for the righteous being the (1st resurrection) - which I have proved that there are "series" in which they happen to occur - and finally, the other for the wicked, being the (2nd resurrection).

Now to further support what I have mentioned, you have supplied the following Scriptures:

Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”


and:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


So, in closing, again, I have never mentioned that there will be two separate resurrections of the righteous - only that there is an "order" or various "sequences" or "series" in which the righteous will be resurrected - but still be considered as the 1st resurrection. The 2nd resurrection is the resurrection of the Wicked - which occurs AFTER Christ has Reigned.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sanderson on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:45 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Sonbeam :grin: !

Now let's do take a look at what you have written.

But first, I want to answer your question, as you ask this:

Have you come across any scriptures that specifically say there will be two resurrections of the righteous Mr B?


Sonbeam, I have never said that there were two resurrections of the righteous. First of all you have to understand that there is an "order" of resurrections which occur; or a "series" of resurrections that occur - and they are still considered to be a part of the 1st resurrection. I'll provide Scripture, as I attempt to explain my point.

1) "After" Christ was resurrected, some of those saints who were buried came to life, and appeared to others in Jerusalem. (Matthew 27:51-53) Scripture isn't clear as to what happened to these saints - but there is no evidence that they lived on Earth and died again after this resurrection.

2) We have the resurrection of the Two Witnesses. (Revelation 11:7-12) This particular passage of Scripture is clearly a different resurrection of we who will be gathered unto Him upon His Return.

3) Then we have the resurrection of those who have been Martyred - by being beheaded, and those who were killed for their testimony of Jesus and the Word of God. (Revelation 20:4) - As I have mentioned, there is no specific time-frame that Scripture provides, that this particular body of believers are resurrected - however, Scripture is clear that they "came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." Scripture is also very clear that this is a part of the 1st resurrection. So I strongly believe that it can be inferred, that this particular resurrection is very likely to occur at His Coming - although Scripture is not clear about this.

You also mention the following:"

Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. NIV”


and this:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. NIV


Sonbeam, thank you for providing the aforementioned passages of Scripture, as I will prove my point with what you have provided. First, if you'll notice - there is absolutely no mention at all that the resurrection(s) that you have mentioned, which are of the righteous, and the wicked HAVE TO OCCUR AT THE SAME TIME. This has been an "assumption" for many who have simply "read into" Scripture, and mostly to prove a point of faulty eschatology. Revelation 20:5-6 is very clear that there will be TWO separate Resurrections - one for the righteous being the (1st resurrection) - which I have proved that there are "series" in which they happen to occur - and finally, the other for the wicked, being the (2nd resurrection).

Now to further support what I have mentioned, you have supplied the following Scriptures:

Luke 14:14 and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”


and:

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.


So, in closing, again, I have never mentioned that there will be two separate resurrections of the righteous - only that there is an "order" or various "sequences" or "series" in which the righteous will be resurrected - but still be considered as the 1st resurrection. The 2nd resurrection is the resurrection of the Wicked - which occurs AFTER Christ has Reigned.



:a3:
Excellent post.
Sanderson
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:50 pm

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:35 am

Hi Mr. B,

I think we will continue go around in circles :grin: on this topic of the resurrection for these reasons:

Since you see a literal millennium happening, it is only natural that you will interpret the scriptures you have posted, and also those I have posted, through a presupposed millenial lens that is based mostly on Rev 20. Therefore, I can understand how you can arrive at an interpretation of a series or several resurrections of the righteous and still consider them to fall under the category of one resurrection.

I on the other hand, though I acknowledge that Rev 20 mentions a thousand year reign, do not see a mention of a literal thousand year reign confirmed by any other scriptures.

Therefore, I believe in only one more coming of the Lord in the clouds and the complete destruction of this earth after the saints are taken out, with the creation of a new heavens and a new imperishable earth sometime after that to be inhabited only by the saints as many scriptures attest. This makes it an impossibility for the Isa 65 passage to be interpreted in a literal manner. Isaiah 65:20

The following words spoken by Jesus are very clear IMO that there will be only one resurrection of the righteous at the last day:

John 6:39 The one who sent me doesn’t want me to lose any of those he gave me. He wants me to bring them back to life on the last day.

40 My Father wants all those who see the Son and believe in him to have eternal life. He wants me to bring them back to life on the [b]last day.”[/b]

44 People cannot come to me unless the Father who sent me brings them to me. I will bring these people back to life on the last day.54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will bring them back to life on the last day.


I respect your position on this Mr. Baldy since I'm very much aware that this dispensational view is held by many believers right now. I realize the historical view that I hold is rather unique, but I haven’t found anything yet in the scriptures to sway me from my conviction.

We will just have to agree to disagree on this for right now. :grin:

:blessyou:
Last edited by Sonbeam on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:07 pm

Sonbeam wrote:We will just have to agree to disagree on this for right now.


Thank you for both your time, and consideration to what I have presented Sonbeam!

:blessyou: as well brother.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2205
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:29 am

extravagantchristian wrote:Sounds plausible. Doesn't revelation describe a scene where none was found worthy to open the seals, except Jesus, so are you saying that scene took place right before Adam sinned?


In going over the thread to see if there were any comments that I had not addressed, I came across yours extravagant Christian. I’m sorry I didn’t see it before.

So to answer your question, yes, since Christ is God and He has always existed prior to His incarnation, He has always been “the Lamb worthy to open the seals.”

For one thing, I believe that “the opening of the seals” is not an actual physical action, but only a symbolic picture -- given to us by God to express to us in finite terms we can relate to -- as to how He has set in motion, and continues to bring to fulfillment, the history of mankind as He has decreed it.

Since God is Spirit Whose existence is eternal and Who created this universe by speaking it into being, I have a hard time believing that He has relied/will rely on sealed scrolls, horses, bows, a pair of scales, etc. – all descriptions of earthly physical, perishable things -- to bring to pass the events described in Revelation.



:blessyou:
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Jericho on Sat Aug 10, 2013 12:18 pm

So to answer your question, yes, since Christ is God and He has always existed prior to His incarnation, He has always been “the Lamb worthy to open the seals.”


What made Him worthy? His death and resurrection.
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Sonbeam on Sat Aug 10, 2013 2:39 pm

Jericho wrote:
So to answer your question, yes, since Christ is God and He has always existed prior to His incarnation, He has always been “the Lamb worthy to open the seals.”


What made Him worthy? His death and resurrection.


Are you saying the living Word, Who was with God at the beginning of creation (John 1:1-3) was not worthy until He died and rose again?
Sonbeam
 
Posts: 708
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:00 am
Location: Central Texas

Re: All seals have been opened except the 6th

Postby Jericho on Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:15 pm

I'm saying I don't believe anyone was qualified to open the seals, even Jesus, until He was crucified. If it were not a prerequisite, why mention that He was slain three times in connection with the seals being opened (Rev 5)?
Formerly SwordOfGideon
User avatar
Jericho
 
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:05 am
Location: Tx

Previous

Return to Prophecy Debate Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests