Pre-trib timeline

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Oct 30, 2011 2:40 pm

Furthermore:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


John sees the fifth seal martyrs here as souls under the altar- again they are souls of those who have died as martyrs. They are clearly the dead. John says that they are given white robes- he is witnessing their resurrection. After they receive their robes of a glorified body they are told to rest until the number of their fellow servants and brethren would be killed as martyrs too, until their number is complete. That means there will be others who will die as martyrs after these fifth seal martyrs are resurrected. These are not the same martyrs we see in Rev. 20 but a different group resurrected before they are, before the end of the tribulation.

The fact is that all believers will reign as priests with Christ- all those resurrected into the heavenly throne room. John says this in Revelation 1:

Revelation 1:4-6
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—
6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.


Christ's death and resurrection is what caused Him to be able to make us all a kingdom of priests- we already are that. Here on earth we are his priests and when we arrive in the heavenly place we will continue to be His priests. In fact the elders sing that song of the new covenant in Rev 5- about how Christ redeemed men from every tribe tongue and nation to become a kingdom of priests who will reign upon the earth. John witnessed an event from his past- Christ's atoning sacrifice that was able to cleanse mankind from sin so that they might serve him as a kingdom of priests on earth as they lived as men. Those multitudes that appear after the sixth seal is opened will also serve as priests in the heavenly temple:
Revelation 7:15
15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.



The problem as I see it is the phrase "first resurrection" and taking it to mean that there are none prior to it. Rather IMO it is the first "kind" of resurrection, I have spelled this out to you many times already, but apparently you aren't buying it. There are two kinds of resurrection one to life and one to judgment. The first kind is the one that leads to life. And in fact there has already been a resurrection to life- that of Jesus Christ Himself, and there will be more raised to life at their predetermined time. If there was only one resurrection to life then Jesus would have been it,

His was the first resurrection!


Nothing I propose contradicts scripture in any way. If it does please show me how so far you have not.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:32 am

Hi RT,

But just so I am clear- are you claiming that the resurrection in chapter 20 of Revelation "the first resurrection" includes all those who are currently the dead in Christ and that it is when those who are alive and remain are caught up to be with them as well? I just want to be sure that is what you are saying?

If this is what you are claiming how do you reconcile the fact that those who John witnesses being raised at that resurrection first of all are all souls- which means they are the dead, secondly that they died by beheading and/or because they did not worship the beast or take the mark of the beast?


All I am saying is that those who are part of the resurrection in Rev 20:4 live and reign with Christ as priests for 1,000 years during the millennium. The rest of the dead don't rise until after the 1,000 years.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection they will be priests of God and reign with Him for 1,000 years. Since the pre-trib rapture is not shown in Rev 20:4 then the pre-tribbers aren't reigning with Christ for the 1,000 years as those who are part of the first resurrection are. That's what the words say I just read them and believe they mean exactly what they say.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:40 am

Hi RT,

John sees the fifth seal martyrs here as souls under the altar- again they are souls of those who have died as martyrs. They are clearly the dead. John says that they are given white robes- he is witnessing their resurrection. After they receive their robes of a glorified body they are told to rest until the number of their fellow servants and brethren would be killed as martyrs too, until their number is complete. That means there will be others who will die as martyrs after these fifth seal martyrs are resurrected. These are not the same martyrs we see in Rev. 20 but a different group resurrected before they are, before the end of the tribulation.


Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


If we see the resurrection at the 5th seal then how would that be pre-trib since the 6th seal occurs at the very end of the last 7 years?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:01 am

If we see the resurrection at the 5th seal then how would that be pre-trib since the 6th seal occurs at the very end of the last 7 years?


I do not see that as the case, rather I believe the 5th seal is opened before the 70th week commences. I believe the 70th week begins when the 7th seal is removed from the scroll. The scroll itself represents the 70th week- the last week of Daniel's prophecy.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:15 am

Hi RT,

I do not see that as the case, rather I believe the 5th seal is opened before the 70th week commences. I believe the 70th week begins when the 7th seal is removed from the scroll. The scroll itself represents the 70th week- the last week of Daniel's prophecy.


It is not what we see or believe it is what the scriptures actually say. You described the rapture between the 5th and 6th seal basically which is correct. We see the cosmic signs/6th seal in Matthew 24 when the elect are gathered.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation we see the 6th seal. That tribulation begins at the AOD which is the midpoint of the last 7 years. So if you see a rapture between the 5th and 6th seal then you see a rapture near the end of the last 7 years.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:31 pm

It is not what we see or believe it is what the scriptures actually say. You described the rapture between the 5th and 6th seal basically which is correct. We see the cosmic signs/6th seal in Matthew 24 when the elect are gathered.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately after the 3 1/2 year tribulation we see the 6th seal. That tribulation begins at the AOD which is the midpoint of the last 7 years. So if you see a rapture between the 5th and 6th seal then you see a rapture near the end of the last 7 years.


Hi Seeker,

You are assuming that the signs of the sixth seal and those described in Matthew are a result of the same event. Yet they are not necessarily the same. Matthew says the sun is darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars fall from heaven. At the sixth seal however the moon is not darkened but rather is described as looking more like a lunar eclipse, it still shines its light but its light is diminished, it is a full moon that "became like blood". So the moon will shine forth its light at the sixth seal- enough to be seen in the sky. If the sun and moon are totally darkened which is implied in Matthew as well as the OT passages that Matthew quotes, then neither the moon nor the sun would be visible, it would be total darkness. Yet John describes at the sixth seal a sun that appears blackened as sackcloth of hair and a moon that appears as blood- both are visible to him and therefore must be shining forth some small amount of light. IMO it sounds like seismic activity perhaps a volcanic eruption that John is witnessing at the removal of the sixth seal, though that is just my opinion.

The fact remains, which you have not yet addressed is that the fifth seal martyrs are resurrected and given their white robes, and then told afterward that their number needs to be completed. How do you explain that? The number to be completed is realized after the tribulation In Rev. 20, when John witnesses the resurrection of those tribulation martyrs, again you have failed to show how those that John sees raised to life in that passage include anyone other than tribulation saints.

However if the resurrection of the dead in Christ (which would include those martyrs under the throne) are raised at the sixth seal along with those who are alive and remain before the 70th week begins or at the least before the trumpets sound then it makes complete sense.

You also failed to show how it is even possible that the sixth seal can occur after the trumpets sound. We have talked about this in the other thread. But it is not possible for the trumpets to sound in parallel with the seals because the sealing of the 144,000 has to happen before the sea, earth and trees are harmed. That sealing does not begin until after the sixth seal is removed. So the fifth and sixth seal must come before the first trumpet sounds. Which completely rules out the idea that these events can run in parallel.

Just because the language is similar does not mean it is the same. In fact there are some interesting differences between the OT parallel passage and the one found in Rev. 6

Revelation 6:12-14
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Isaiah 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.


So here in these two passages you have a couple things in common- the sky is rolled up as a scroll and a fig tree is mentioned. But there is a very curious difference which I am certain was not an oversight on John's part. He describes the events of the sixth seal in terms of a pre-harvest fig tree, with its unripe fruit falling to the ground as if blown off by a mighty wind. While Isaiah on the other-hand describes events in terms of a post harvest fig tree, with the heavenly hosts withering away like a leaf withers from the fig tree (and vine). The fig tree that John describes is in the spring of its spiritual life about to bring forth fruit, while Isaiah's is a tree that has already been harvested, and the leaves of autumn are withered and dry. The fig tree as we know is a metaphor for Israel, and its fruit a metaphor for those righteous godly ones who live in accordance with God's word. These events though similar are separated by time- pre-harvest and post harvest.

Also those gathered in Matthew's gospel are gathered from the four corners of heaven, from one end to the other. Therefore those gathered are gathered from heaven. In order to be gathered from heaven they would have to have been there before-hand. Also these in Matthew are gathered by the Lord's angels, but according to Paul it is the Lord Himself that gathers those who are caught up together- to meet Him in the clouds. There is no mention of angels assisting in the rapture and in fact the language used implies that it is Christ who gathers us. Thus there could be two separate gatherings.

Matthew's gospel might be referring to this gathering:
Revelation 19:13-14
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.


RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:08 am

Hi RT,

You are assuming that the signs of the sixth seal and those described in Matthew are a result of the same event. Yet they are not necessarily the same. Matthew says the sun is darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars fall from heaven. At the sixth seal however the moon is not darkened but rather is described as looking more like a lunar eclipse, it still shines its light but its light is diminished, it is a full moon that "became like blood". So the moon will shine forth its light at the sixth seal- enough to be seen in the sky. If the sun and moon are totally darkened which is implied in Matthew as well as the OT passages that Matthew quotes, then neither the moon nor the sun would be visible, it would be total darkness. Yet John describes at the sixth seal a sun that appears blackened as sackcloth of hair and a moon that appears as blood- both are visible to him and therefore must be shining forth some small amount of light. IMO it sounds like seismic activity perhaps a volcanic eruption that John is witnessing at the removal of the sixth seal, though that is just my opinion.


No I don't assume very often. You can be fairly certain that anything I say I have scripture that backs the point or I simply don't say it. The whole Post-Wrath theory is laid out that way. I formed the theory around what I could prove with a multitude of scriptures. Now concerning the cosmic signs they are described two different ways as you say. But they are equal descriptions as we can see from here in Joel.

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


Joel uses both of the lunar descriptions together in the same chapter. In one instance he says the moon is dark and in the other he says it is into blood. Joel uses the two interchangeably in the same chapter. Notice that he uses the "blood" description in conjunction with the day of the Lord. The cosmic signs occur before Jesus returns as shown also here in Joel 2.

The fact remains, which you have not yet addressed is that the fifth seal martyrs are resurrected and given their white robes, and then told afterward that their number needs to be completed. How do you explain that? The number to be completed is realized after the tribulation In Rev. 20, when John witnesses the resurrection of those tribulation martyrs, again you have failed to show how those that John sees raised to life in that passage include anyone other than tribulation saints.


That is during the tribulation. After they have been killed they await the day Jesus returns and destroys the sinners. God tells them to hold on a bit because their brethren are yet to be killed as they were. So this simply means that the tribulation hasn't ended yet at the 5th seal. That matches what we are told in Matthew 24.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Immediately after the tribulation is over is when we see the cosmic signs/6th seal. That would mean the tribulation is still occuring until we see the cosmic signs. That is exactly what we see at the 5th seal.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


They are to rest until their brothers are killed as they were. How were they killed? They were killed by the AC during the trib so they await their brethren to also be killed as they were indicating that the tribulation is still occuring at the 5th seal. That makes perfect sense as we know that "immediately" after the trib is when the cosmic signs/ 6th seal occur. The cosmic signs are the great sign post in prophectic scripture. They always occur in scripture just prior to the Lord returning to earth. We can see the same sequence in Joel. First we see war in Israel, then we see the cosmic signs, and last we see Jesus returning after the cosmic signs. Scripture is very consistant each time we see the cosmic signs Jesus is soon to follow.

You also failed to show how it is even possible that the sixth seal can occur after the trumpets sound. We have talked about this in the other thread. But it is not possible for the trumpets to sound in parallel with the seals because the sealing of the 144,000 has to happen before the sea, earth and trees are harmed. That sealing does not begin until after the sixth seal is removed. So the fifth and sixth seal must come before the first trumpet sounds. Which completely rules out the idea that these events can run in parallel.


If one begins with a false assumption they end with a false conclusion. Jesus returns at the 6th seal.

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

There can be no grass left to burn after Jesus arrives. It will get torched when He arrives as we see clearly here in Peter.

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


The day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night in which the heavens pass away, the elements melt with fervant heat, the earth and all the earths works are burnt up upon the arrival of Jesus. Jesus obviously is there in Rev 6:16 as they try to hide from Him. Peter says that when the Lord fulfills His promise to return that the very elements themselves are melted. Would have to be some tough grass to survive a heat intense enough to melt the very elements themselves. Would have to be several thousand degrees to do that. Of course grass could not survive those extreme temps. So the very fact that we see grass mentioned means that Jesus is yet to arrive. The seals/trumpets/vials must occur in parallel for that to be the case.

So here in these two passages you have a couple things in common- the sky is rolled up as a scroll and a fig tree is mentioned. But there is a very curious difference which I am certain was not an oversight on John's part. He describes the events of the sixth seal in terms of a pre-harvest fig tree, with its unripe fruit falling to the ground as if blown off by a mighty wind. While Isaiah on the other-hand describes events in terms of a post harvest fig tree, with the heavenly hosts withering away like a leaf withers from the fig tree (and vine). The fig tree that John describes is in the spring of its spiritual life about to bring forth fruit, while Isaiah's is a tree that has already been harvested, and the leaves of autumn are withered and dry. The fig tree as we know is a metaphor for Israel, and its fruit a metaphor for those righteous godly ones who live in accordance with God's word. These events though similar are separated by time- pre-harvest and post harvest.


Glad you brought those scriptures up I was going to. Did you know that the word scroll is only used in the bible twice? I find that fascinating. Here are the two places as you have noted.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


This is the only two places that the word scroll is used and they appear to tell the same story at the same scene, which is the case.

Isa 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.


Notice that at the time the heavens roll up as a scroll that the Lord's indignation is upon "all" nations. He has utterly destroyed them, He delivered them to the slaughter. The wrath of God is associated with the heavens departing as a scroll. The nations have been destroyed at that time. That is what we see at the 6th seal as well.

Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Every mountain and island were moved out of its place in Rev 6.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
Isa 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
Isa 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.


When the heavens roll up as a scroll we also see it is the day of the Lord's vengeance and the streams become pitch, the dust into brimstone, and the land into burning pitch. Here again we see that the earth is torched upon the arrival of Jesus. So bottom line no green grass left after Jesus returns in flaming fire taking vengeance upon the sinners.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels it will be in flaming fire taking vengeance on the sinners just as we see in Rev 6 and Isaiah 34.

Also those gathered in Matthew's gospel are gathered from the four corners of heaven, from one end to the other. Therefore those gathered are gathered from heaven.


Mat 24:31 AndG2532 he shall sendG649 hisG846 angelsG32 withG3326 a greatG3173 soundG5456 of a trumpet,G4536 andG2532 they shall gather togetherG1996 hisG848 electG1588 fromG1537 theG3588 fourG5064 winds,G417 fromG575 one endG206 of heavenG3772 toG2193 the other.G206

G417
ἄνεμος
anemos
an'-em-os
From the base of G109; wind; (plural) by implication (the four) quarters (of the earth): - wind.


They are gathered from the four winds of the earth.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:04 am

That was quite a post, I will start here;
No I don't assume very often. You can be fairly certain that anything I say I have scripture that backs the point or I simply don't say it. The whole Post-Wrath theory is laid out that way. I formed the theory around what I could prove with a multitude of scriptures. Now concerning the cosmic signs they are described two different ways as you say. But they are equal descriptions as we can see from here in Joel.


Well a theory is an assumption is it not? You say that the scriptures you point to prove your theory, yet I am not convinced, so you have failed to prove your theory at least to me anyway. But I don't have a problem with theories and assumptions, as I too share my own theories based on what I believe is empirical evidence found in the scriptures. That is why we are here debating, in hopes that our evidence will be proven substantial enough to actually support our assumptions. So lets look at your "evidence" shall we?

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.



First of all we need to establish the context of the passage- Joel is speaking of the coming day of the Lord.
Joel 2:1-2
1 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,
2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.

As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.


Notice how he describes the day of the Lord- as a day of clouds and thick darkness.This description continues on through the verse 11 which you posted which goes on to describe the sun and moon being dark and the stars losing their brightness.

Yet this passage says the following

Joel 2:30-31
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.


These events happen BEFORE the day of the Lord comes, Joel is not interchanging the events to say they are one in the same, he is describing two separate events- one IS the day of the Lord the other is BEFORE the day of the Lord comes.

In fact Peter quotes verses 28 -31 in his sermon at Pentecost,

Acts 2:16-24
16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:
17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;
18 Even on My bondslaves, both men and women,
I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit
And they shall prophesy.
19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above
And signs on the earth below,
Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
20 ‘The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

21 ‘And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24 “But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Peter uses these scriptures to explain the events that were occurring at Pentecost, he is showing that these events were being fulfilled then. Remember as Christ hung on the cross there was darkness for three hours. Perhaps some lunar eclipse occured in conjunction to the life of Christ as well. In any case Peter shows at least some form of fulfillment of the passage in Joel. So if Peter says that these signs in Joel were being fulfilled in his day, isn't it possible that they could happen again as a future fulfillment of the same prophecy? Before the Day of the Lord? As a sign to the Jews who have yet to receive the promises?

There is a moratorium on the fulfillment of the day of darkness and gloom- it will only happen once as Joel says in verse 2:2. Yet there is no moratorium on blood red moons, or darkened suns. We know this to be true, because we witness several blood red moons a year and also solar eclipses.

In fact there is a day of darkness described in the revelation that could be the fulfillment of Joel's Day of the Lord:

Revelation 16:10
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,


This happens just before Armageddon, which follows along with Joel's description of the day of the Lord.

darkened;
Strong's Greek #4656
4656 σκοτόω [skotoo /skot·o·o/] v. From 4655; TDNT 7:423; TDNTA 1049; GK 5031; AV translates as “full of darkness” once. 1 to darken, cover with darkness. 2 metaph. to darken or blind the mind.


Compare this to John's description of the events surrounding the removal of the sixth seal:
Revelation 6:12
12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;


black
Strong's Greek #3189
3189 μέλας [melas /mel·as/] adj. Apparently a root word; TDNT 4:549; TDNTA 577; GK 3506; Three occurrences; AV translates as “black” three times. 1 black. 2 black ink.

sackcloth
Strong's Greek #4526
4526 σάκκος [sakkos /sak·kos/] n m. Of Hebrew origin 8242; TDNT 7:56; TDNTA 995; GK 4884; Four occurrences; AV translates as “sackcloth” four times. 1 a sack. 1a a receptacle for holding or carrying various things, as money, food, etc. 1b a course cloth, a dark course stuff made especially from the hair of animals. 1c a garment of the like material, and clinging to the person like a sack, which was wont to be worn (or drawn over the tunic instead of the cloak or mantle) by mourners, penitents, suppliants and also by those who like the Hebrew prophets, lead an austere life.


He describes this event as the sun becomes blackened as though it were covered by a black sackcloth . Sackcloth made of hair. It is called sackcloth because it was used for sacks, usually made of goat hair. Think of a sack, if you hold it up to the sunlight, some light will penetrate through it. These OT sacks were likely made from goat hair, woven into a cloth, that was both strong and durable, used to carry and package items of all kinds. These sacks would not have been so tightly woven that they would be stiff, they would be woven more loosely so that they could be made into sacks to carry things, and could also serve as garments for mourning. Again if held up to the sunlight, some light however minute would penetrate through it. And in order for the moon to appear red- the light from the sun would have to reflect off of the surface of the moon- it is not a total darkness as the passage in Matthew describes, and as the OT prophets describe concerning the Day of the Lord.


RT
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:30 am

Hi RT,

First of all we need to establish the context of the passage- Joel is speaking of the coming day of the Lord.
Joel 2:1-2
1 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,
2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.


Notice how he describes the day of the Lord- as a day of clouds and thick darkness.This description continues on through the verse 11 which you posted which goes on to describe the sun and moon being dark and the stars losing their brightness.

Yet this passage says the following

Joel 2:30-31
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.


These events happen BEFORE the day of the Lord comes, Joel is not interchanging the events to say they are one in the same, he is describing two separate events- one IS the day of the Lord the other is BEFORE the day of the Lord comes.


Let me make sure I am following you here. So you are saying that Joel is describing two seperate events that both have the sun going dark? So the sun goes dark before the day of the Lord then again during the day of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Where would this sun darkening be in scripture so I can look at it? I am kind of confused as to what you are saying exactly.

Thanks,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:41 am

Let me make sure I am following you here. So you are saying that Joel is describing two seperate events that both have the sun going dark? So the sun goes dark before the day of the Lord then again during the day of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Where would this sun darkening be in scripture so I can look at it? I am kind of confused as to what you are saying exactly.


I am not saying that they are two separate events- Joel is saying it. And yes that is what I am saying too. I am working on an answer to your second question as we speak- ha- you are too quick for me!!! :grin:
oops I see that I already answered that question- in my post here: I am getting confused :mrgreen:

In fact there is a day of darkness described in the revelation that could be the fulfillment of Joel's Day of the Lord:
Revelation 16:10
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,



This happens just before Armageddon, which follows along with Joel's description of the day of the Lord.


RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:47 am

Okay on to the next point and then I have to quit for the day- I have time on my hands, but I still have things to get done around here:

The fact remains, which you have not yet addressed is that the fifth seal martyrs are resurrected and given their white robes, and then told afterward that their number needs to be completed. How do you explain that? The number to be completed is realized after the tribulation In Rev. 20, when John witnesses the resurrection of those tribulation martyrs, again you have failed to show how those that John sees raised to life in that passage include anyone other than tribulation saints.


That is during the tribulation. After they have been killed they await the day Jesus returns and destroys the sinners. God tells them to hold on a bit because their brethren are yet to be killed as they were. So this simply means that the tribulation hasn't ended yet at the 5th seal. That matches what we are told in Matthew 24.


So when they are given their white robe, what exactly are they receiving? If they remain as souls during the tribulation when do they receive these robes? And what are they? And why do they receive them during the tribulation?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:24 am

Hi RT,

I am not saying that they are two separate events- Joel is saying it. And yes that is what I am saying too. I am working on an answer to your second question as we speak- ha- you are too quick for me!!!
oops I see that I already answered that question- in my post here: I am getting confused


In fact there is a day of darkness described in the revelation that could be the fulfillment of Joel's Day of the Lord:
Revelation 16:10
10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,



This happens just before Armageddon, which follows along with Joel's description of the day of the Lord.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


Ok I see. So the first sun darkening happens just before Armageddon. Which sun darkening is in Matthew 24 and which sun darkening is in Rev 6, first or second in Joel?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:36 am

Hi RT,

Okay on to the next point and then I have to quit for the day- I have time on my hands, but I still have things to get done around here:


I hear you there this is my last post for the day as well have a lock set to install this morning.

So when they are given their white robe, what exactly are they receiving? If they remain as souls during the tribulation when do they receive these robes? And what are they? And why do they receive them during the tribulation?


Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They got the white robes because they came out of great tribulation. They have their robes and the rest who are killed will also get their robes. We see them all together in Rev 7 after they all have been raptured.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


We see the cosmic signs/6th seal (before the day of the Lord) then we see the kings of the earth hiding from the wrath of the Lamb. Then we see the multitude raptured in heaven after the 6th seal where Jesus dispences the wrath of God. When we die our souls go to be with the Lord. That is what we see at the 5th seal. They are killed and their souls await the resurrection of the body which follows after the 6th seal when Jesus arrives. The sequence we see written is the 5th seal (trib saints), 6th seal ( cosmic signs/wrath of the Lamb), 7th seal (multitudes in heaven after the rapture). Cosmic signs, wrath, and then resurrection in Rev 7.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:52 am

To save us both some time and having to write such long posts- let's just answer/ debate one point at a time okay?

Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

They got the white robes because they came out of great tribulation. They have their robes and the rest who are killed will also get their robes. We see them all together in Rev 7 after they all have been raptured.


Please answer me this:

what are the white robes?


RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:22 am

Please answer me this:

what are the white robes?


Revelation 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Quite simply, the white robes are the righteousness of the saints.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:32 pm

Revelation 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.


Quite simply, the white robes are the righteousness of the saints.


Okay then, I believe that is true also- but why do the fifth seal martyrs receive them? What causes them to receive these robes as the souls of the dead? Why don't they already have them when John first sees them? Why are they given them at this time? Seeker says it is because they came out of the great tribulation, but why do they get them then and not sooner?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:32 am

Hi RT,

Okay then, I believe that is true also- but why do the fifth seal martyrs receive them? What causes them to receive these robes as the souls of the dead? Why don't they already have them when John first sees them? Why are they given them at this time? Seeker says it is because they came out of the great tribulation, but why do they get them then and not sooner?


They can only get the robes after they die. They can't get them until they are killed during the tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


They passed the test of refusing the MOB and dying because of that choice. When their souls reach heaven they are given the white robes because they gave their lives rather than worship the beast. They then have to wait until the rest of their brothers are killed before God avenges their blood during His wrath.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:40 am

They can only get the robes after they die. They can't get them until they are killed during the tribulation.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They passed the test of refusing the MOB and dying because of that choice. When their souls reach heaven they are given the white robes because they gave their lives rather than worship the beast. They then have to wait until the rest of their brothers are killed before God avenges their blood during His wrath.


Okay I am seeing your logic here now- so you are saying that the souls are under the altar- then they go into heaven after receiving their robes because they were martyrs of the tribulation, then they wait until the rest are killed and they enter heaven and get their white robes too- am I right? If this is what you are saying then we agree! I believe the same thing.

Our difference is that you see both the fifth seal martyrs and the multitudes in chapter 7 as parts of the same group- tribulation saints, while I see them as separate groups.

I see a small flaw in your reasoning- Isn't entering heaven a resurrection event? If those who enter heaven later are a resurrected group then those who enter earlier must be too. What you are saying then is that there are two resurrections that happen- one that happens sometime before the other. The fifth seal martyrs enter heaven before the rest of the tribulation saints. This is what you are saying, therefore you are saying that there are two resurrection events. Which contradicts your original premise- that there is only one that occurs at the end of the tribulation. So then we agree at least in that there are two separate resurrection events though not on who these two resurrected groups represent.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:58 am

Hi RT,

Yes that is pretty much how I see it.

I see a small flaw in your reasoning- Isn't entering heaven a resurrection event?


Well I sort of see the resurrection as the body and soul being united. It is only the soul in heaven under the altar. If the resurrection occurs at the 6th seal then my logic holds because that is when they would be reunited with their immortal bodies like the raptured saints get translated. Flesh and blood may not inherit the kingdom of God. That is sort of my reasoning there. The big deal though is that the tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years and starts around the midpoint of the last 7 years. 3.5 plus 3 1/2 gets us to the end of the last 7 years for the cosmic signs/6th seal which is the resurrection. You understand what I am saying? The timing of the resurrection itself determines when the rapture is if that makes sense to you. The dead in Christ rise before we are raptured. That is why I am pushing you to point out the pre-trib resurrection because I know that the resurrection is half of the rapture (dead in Christ rise first). I don't think pre-trib can point to a resurrection shown in the bible that occurs prior to the 70th week. It would be located around Dan 9:26 in order to occur before the AOD. I would think that the pre-tribbers would be a bit uncomfortable with their theory if they couldn't even verify the pre-trib resurrection anywhere in scripture. Especially since we see resurrections mentioned several times in prophetic scripture. If you place the resurrection at the 5th seal then how would that be classified as pre-trib?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:32 am

Hi RT,

Yes that is pretty much how I see it.

I see a small flaw in your reasoning- Isn't entering heaven a resurrection event?



Well I sort of see the resurrection as the body and soul being united. It is only the soul in heaven under the altar. If the resurrection occurs at the 6th seal then my logic holds because that is when they would be reunited with their immortal bodies like the raptured saints get translated. Flesh and blood may not inherit the kingdom of God. That is sort of my reasoning there. The big deal though is that the tribulation lasts 3 1/2 years and starts around the midpoint of the last 7 years. 3.5 plus 3 1/2 gets us to the end of the last 7 years for the cosmic signs/6th seal which is the resurrection. You understand what I am saying? The timing of the resurrection itself determines when the rapture is if that makes sense to you. The dead in Christ rise before we are raptured. .


hello again Seeker,

You make a couple points that I'd like to answer separately- first of all I'm glad we sort of agree on something here. But I don't think you fully appreciate the flaw in your reasoning. If as you claim the fifth seal martyrs are resurrected and I'm assuming you are claiming that the events of the fifth seal are the same as the events of revelation 20? Then where is the rapture? You point to the resurrection of the dead but you aren't placing the raptured saints? Where is the scripture in Revelation 20 that shows that those who are alive and remain are caught up into heaven? And how do you explain two separate resurrection events? The fifth seal martyrs entering heaven before the post trib martyrs? And when exactly are the fifth seal martyrs killed in relation to the rest of their number?

Revelation speaks only about the dead being raised to life, again they are described as souls and a part of those who make up a group of the dead (the rest of the dead).
Revelation 20:4-5
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


If all these are described as souls, then they are all the dead, where are the raptured saints?

I don't think pre-trib can point to a resurrection shown in the bible that occurs prior to the 70th week. It would be located around Dan 9:26 in order to occur before the AOD. I would think that the pre-tribbers would be a bit uncomfortable with their theory if they couldn't even verify the pre-trib resurrection anywhere in scripture. Especially since we see resurrections mentioned several times in prophetic scripture. If you place the resurrection at the 5th seal then how would that be classified as pre-trib?


Well I am not your typical pre-tribber, I have a slightly different view concerning the timing of events than the traditional pre-tribber does. You see I believe that the first four seals all begin before the 70th week begins and that the fifth and sixth seal represent the resurrection of the dead and the rapture respectively. The 70th week IMO begins with the removal of the 7th seal. This idea may generate a lot of discussion, concerning the scene in revelation four, who the elders are etc... I could debate all that but it would take a lot of time. But for now I will stick with the idea that the fifth seal represents the resurrection of the dead- because on this we agree.

If you look at the first four seals- the riders on horses and their effects, you will find precisely the same effects they wield in the old testament, they are found in Leviticus and other OT scripture as the punishment for disobedience- wild beasts, war, famine and death who follows up the rear bringing death and pestilence to the effects of the other three. Wild beasts being the conquering nations who rule over Israel as well as other nations. These seal horses and their riders are not a new testament concept, but rather an old testament one. Except here in the Revelation they are sent out by the Lamb that was slain, who John sees enter the heavenly tabernacle and take the scroll and open it. When did Jesus enter the heavenly tabernacle as the lamb that was slain? It is not an event of John's future but an event of John's past, he witnesses the beginning of the new covenant era when Christ enters as the atoning lamb into the heavenly tabernacle. If you read chapter four of the revelation you will note the positional change in the "spirit's of heaven" before the lamb enters they are described as seven flames of fire before the throne, after the lamb enters they are described as the seven horns on the lamb. I believe that these horses and riders also have had a positional change, they are now sent out by the lamb that was slain as he removes the seals from the scroll. Now all this being said I cannot prove when exactly these seals may have been or will be removed. However their effects are all part of the landscape we now live in and since Christ is now seated on the throne and all authority has been given to Him (1 Peter 3:22), then I would assume that these horses and riders never stopped riding, but rather just are now under new ownership/authority.

Also martyrdom has also been a part of the fabric of time, the OT prophets dies as martyrs, the apostles, all but John died as martyrs, many believers have died as martyrs and continue to die as martyrs as we speak. The fifth seal martyrs unlike the martyrs mentioned in revelation 20 are not described as tribulation martyrs but rather as those who were killed because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained. This could apply to any believer who has died because of their faith.

Therefore I believe that the first four seals have already been removed, and that Christ removed them after entering into the heavenly tabernacle as the lamb that was slain, when He took the scroll from the Father and assumed authority over angels and powers and authorities.

We agree that the fifth seal shows a resurrection event- the martyrs under the altar receive their robes, their glorified righteous body when they enter the heavenly tabernacle. I believe that the events of the sixth seal bring about or immediately follow this resurrection and that the rapture happens then too. With the multitudes standing before the throne of God in white robes representing both those dead in Christ and also those who are caught up into the heavenly tabernacle.

The removal of the seventh seal IMO is what begins the 70th week. Remember the church at Philadelphia was promised they would be kept from the hour of testing:

Revelation 3:10
10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


And then the removal of the seventh seal has this effect:
Revelation 8:1
1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.


The first half of the 70th week or rather "about" the first half- occurs as silence in heaven with the removal of the 7th seal. The scroll itself represents the trumpet and bowl judgments- Zechariah "scroll of cursing" (Zech 5). During this first half of the 70th week the 144,000 are sealed before the trumpets sound, the trumpets break the silence just before the middle of the hour (week) and the 7th trumpet IMO occurs just before or simultaneously with the AOD. After this the tribulation saints will be killed.

The Bowls follow later toward the end of the second half of the week.
Jesus returns
the tribulation saints are raised
the FP and the AC are cast into the lake of fire
the millennium ensues



That is how I see it

I know you have comments- I'm certain among them will be the claim made in Rev 6:16, about the wrath of the Lamb, and then there is the whole debate over what "out of" means in Rev 7:14, and what exactly is the "hour of testing", yet these IMO do not contradict my view, in light of the rest of scripture it all fits together nicely at least as far as I am concerned. I could debate all these things, but my time of late is limited, I will try to answer as I am able.

Hope you have a wonderful weekend- sun is shining here- it's a beautiful day :grin:

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:20 am

Hi RT,

Yes it is refreshing to have at least some common ground to start from.

You make a couple points that I'd like to answer separately- first of all I'm glad we sort of agree on something here. But I don't think you fully appreciate the flaw in your reasoning. If as you claim the fifth seal martyrs are resurrected and I'm assuming you are claiming that the events of the fifth seal are the same as the events of revelation 20? Then where is the rapture?


I do not think that the 5th seal martyrs have been resurrected until after the 6th seal. They are like any of the dead in Christ. They die and then their bodies go to be with the Lord.

Luk_20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: )
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


I simply believe that those of the 5th seal fall into the catagory above. They have died and gone to be with the Lord. Their souls await the resurrection after the 6th seal.

You point to the resurrection of the dead but you aren't placing the raptured saints?


1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Would you agree that when the dead in Christ rise that is a resurrection? The dead in Christ rise first and then we are raptured. There has to be a resurrection prior to the rapture according to 1Th 4:17. The resurrection I point to follows the 6th seal. The souls waiting at the 5th seal get resurrected after the 6th seal. Does that clear it up for you?

Where is the scripture in Revelation 20 that shows that those who are alive and remain are caught up into heaven? And how do you explain two separate resurrection events? The fifth seal martyrs entering heaven before the post trib martyrs? And when exactly are the fifth seal martyrs killed in relation to the rest of their number?


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


The question is can the saints in Rev 20:4 be described as "dead in Christ". If they are dead in Christ then they must rise before we who are alive and remain. Just because the rapture is not mentioned does not mean it doesn't happen. If there is a resurrection of the 'dead in Christ" it occurs before we who remain and are alive to satisfy the requirements of 1Th 4:16. I say that those in Rev 20:4 die in Christ therefore have to be part of the dead in Christ that rise first. But you are correct the rapture is not described in Rev 20:4 just the resurrection.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Here in Matthew 24 we see the elect gathered. We see the rapture but not the resurrection. Again though the dead in Christ rise first so there must a resurrection prior to that or 1Th 4 would not be satisfied. Before any of the elect are raptured the dead in Christ must rise. An argument from silence is not the best argument. I could argue that there is no resurrection if I just used Matthew 24. But that would not be an accurate representation of the rapture because 1Th 4 says that the dead must rise first.

Well I am not your typical pre-tribber, I have a slightly different view concerning the timing of events than the traditional pre-tribber does. You see I believe that the first four seals all begin before the 70th week begins and that the fifth and sixth seal represent the resurrection of the dead and the rapture respectively. The 70th week IMO begins with the removal of the 7th seal. This idea may generate a lot of discussion, concerning the scene in revelation four, who the elders are etc... I could debate all that but it would take a lot of time. But for now I will stick with the idea that the fifth seal represents the resurrection of the dead- because on this we agree.


We don't agree that the 5th seal is the resurrection. The resurrection occurs after the cosmic signs/ 6th seal. The souls at the 5th seal have died and are now with the Lord and yet to receive their resurrected bodies. I am interested in your logic that places the first 4 seals before the 70th week. Take your time and explain your view I really am interested as it is a new view I haven't really considered.

Now all this being said I cannot prove when exactly these seals may have been or will be removed.


And there lies the problem or it would be with me at least. How can you confidently stand with a theory that you cannot prove?

Joh_6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh_6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


It appears that Jesus raises all that believe in Him on the "last day". I don't see any seperation of saints in the comments from Jesus. All that is given to Him He will raise on the last day. Wherever you place the resurrection it has to somehow be the "last day". How could the 5th seal be considered the last day? Anyway if you want to add some OT scriptures you believe make your case go ahead. I have a pretty good grasp on the OT prophetic scriptures as well. I want to see if the links you make from the OT and NT conflict with any of the OT prophetic scripture that I am familiar with. Take your time we have until after the 6th seal to discuss this from my perspective...lol.

Yes it is a beauty of a day here as well. Which means I have much to do today and have to go after this but will check back later this evening. Take care.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Douggg on Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:55 am

Seeker wrote:The question is can the saints in Rev 20:4 be described as "dead in Christ". If they are dead in Christ then they must rise before we who are alive and remain. Just because the rapture is not mentioned does not mean it doesn't happen. If there is a resurrection of the 'dead in Christ" it occurs before we who remain and are alive to satisfy the requirements of 1Th 4:16. I say that those in Rev 20:4 die in Christ therefore have to be part of the dead in Christ that rise first. But you are correct the rapture is not described in Rev 20:4 just the resurrection.


If the rapture takes place at the time of the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6, then who are the ones following Jesus in Revelation 19:14 as he returns to earth?

Revelation 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Douggg on Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:41 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Well I am not your typical pre-tribber, I have a slightly different view concerning the timing of events than the traditional pre-tribber does. You see I believe that the first four seals all begin before the 70th week begins and that the fifth and sixth seal represent the resurrection of the dead and the rapture respectively.


Where do see the Antichrist in the seals?
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:20 am

Hi Seeker, I guess I misunderstood, I thought you agreed with me about the 5th seal martyrs, if you don't and you see them as the same group raised in Rev 20 and Rev 6, then again I have to ask what are the white robes, You said why they receive them but not what they actually are- OM answered that they are the righteous deeds of the saints which is true according to scripture, but the question remains why were they given these robes at that time after they had already become souls- You never actually answered this question?

And there lies the problem or it would be with me at least. How can you confidently stand with a theory that you cannot prove?


I do it the same way you do- and I never said I "confidently stand with my theory", it is only a theory after all, and I only have as much confidence in it as my very limited understanding of scripture allows.

Sorry I don't have much time and am rather busy over the next few days so I just cannot answer now as I would like to

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Nov 06, 2011 9:24 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:
Well I am not your typical pre-tribber, I have a slightly different view concerning the timing of events than the traditional pre-tribber does. You see I believe that the first four seals all begin before the 70th week begins and that the fifth and sixth seal represent the resurrection of the dead and the rapture respectively.




Where do see the Antichrist in the seals?


I do not see him there as I see the first four seals occurring over the course of the church age. The Antichrist is not revealed until the middle of the week at the AOD, though the spirit of antichrist is prevalent and has been throughout the church age as well. This is not a spirit specifically sent out by Christ, though all powers are subjected to Him. The beast is revealed with the sounding of the final trumpets. IMO


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Douggg on Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:06 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I do not see him there as I see the first four seals occurring over the course of the church age. The Antichrist is not revealed until the middle of the week at the AOD, though the spirit of antichrist is prevalent and has been throughout the church age as well. This is not a spirit specifically sent out by Christ, though all powers are subjected to Him. The beast is revealed with the sounding of the final trumpets. IMO
RT


Hi RT, do you believe that the person who confirms the covenant with many for seven years is the Antichrist man? Do you believe that the Antichrist man (unrevealed as the man of sin) will be perceived by the Jews to be their "King Messiah"?

The reason for my questions is that the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, I believe is the Antichrist man, False King messiah, who's actions begin the 70th week. Which would mean that the rest of the seals cover the 70th week, and have nothing to do with the church history prior to the beginning of the week.

Although I am pre-70th in my rapture view, I don't think the 5th seal supports the pre-trib rapture, or any of the other ratpure timings either.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:30 pm

Hi RT, do you believe that the person who confirms the covenant with many for seven years is the Antichrist man? Do you believe that the Antichrist man (unrevealed as the man of sin) will be perceived by the Jews to be their "King Messiah"?


Yes and maybe respectively.

The reason for my questions is that the rider on the white horse in Revelation 6, I believe is the Antichrist man, False King messiah, who's actions begin the 70th week. Which would mean that the rest of the seals cover the 70th week, and have nothing to do with the church history prior to the beginning of the week.

Although I am pre-70th in my rapture view, I don't think the 5th seal supports the pre-trib rapture, or any of the other ratpure timings either.


Here is the passage that describes the white horse and its rider:
Revelation 6:2
2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.


The passage only describes him as a conqueror. Though the antichrist will one day act as a conqueror I believe that this rider represents the spirit of the conqueror, that is conquering kings, and leaders of nations. The seal horses have geopolitical effects upon the earth and I believe are sent out in order to appease God's wrath (See Zechariah 1 and 6).The idea that this conqueror wears a golden crown may designate his God given authority to act or possibly that he has authority to affect leaders of nations or maybe both.
Romans 13:1-5
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake.


Also if you look at the fourth horse and rider(s), you will note by what means they kill-
Revelation 6:8
8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


They kill with the sword- the effect of the second seal horse
They kill by famine- the effect of the third seal horse
They kill by pestilence- which in the Greek means "death"- the effect of the fourth seal horse
They kill by wild beasts of the earth.

Note how three of these effects are directly related to one of the seal horses, It is my belief that the "wild beasts" are directly related to the first seal horse- the conqueror.

In the Old testament kingdoms are often referred to as wild beasts, Daniel describes the nations of his visions in chapter 7 as beasts, each nation conquering the one before it. Each one ruling over roughly the same geographic area, the area surrounding the Mediterranean sea. Daniel's vision of the colossus points out how each one rules over Israel, beginning with Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar.

Here also in Deuteronomy- nations are described as wild beasts.
Deuteronomy 7:22-26
22 “The Lord your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you.
23 “But the Lord your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed.
24 “He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them.
25 “The graven images of their gods you are to burn with fire; you shall not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it for yourselves, or you will be snared by it, for it is an abomination to the Lord your God.
26 “You shall not bring an abomination into your house, and like it come under the ban; you shall utterly detest it and you shall utterly abhor it, for it is something banned.


Leviticus 26:14-26- is where you can find the precedence for these effects being set- as a warning from God to Israel should they disobey Him- I will not post the whole passage here but you will find all four effects there.

Also here in Ezekiel these same effects are spoken of again (plague = pestilence in the OT)
Ezekiel 5:11-17
11 ‘So as I live,’ declares the Lord God, ‘surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye will have no pity and I will not spare.
12 ‘One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them.
13 ‘Thus My anger will be spent and I will satisfy My wrath on them, and I will be appeased; then they will know that I, the Lord, have spoken in My zeal when I have spent My wrath upon them.
14 ‘Moreover, I will make you a desolation and a reproach among the nations which surround you, in the sight of all who pass by.
15 ‘So it will be a reproach, a reviling, a warning and an object of horror to the nations who surround you when I execute judgments against you in anger, wrath and raging rebukes. I, the Lord, have spoken.
16 ‘When I send against them the deadly arrows of famine which were for the destruction of those whom I will send to destroy you, then I will also intensify the famine upon you and break the staff of bread.
17 ‘Moreover, I will send on you famine and wild beasts, and they will bereave you of children; plague and bloodshed also will pass through you, and I will bring the sword on you. I, the Lord, have spoken.’ ”

Ezekiel 14:12-21
12 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying,
13 “Son of man, if a country sins against Me by committing unfaithfulness, and I stretch out My hand against it, destroy its supply of bread, send famine against it and cut off from it both man and beast,
14 even though these three men, Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, by their own righteousness they could only deliver themselves,” declares the Lord God.
15 “If I were to cause wild beasts to pass through the land and they depopulated it, and it became desolate so that no one would pass through it because of the beasts,
16 though these three men were in its midst, as I live,” declares the Lord God, “they could not deliver either their sons or their daughters. They alone would be delivered, but the country would be desolate.
17 “Or if I should bring a sword on that country and say, ‘Let the sword pass through the country and cut off man and beast from it,’
18 even though these three men were in its midst, as I live,” declares the Lord God, “they could not deliver either their sons or their daughters, but they alone would be delivered.
19 “Or if I should send a plague against that country and pour out My wrath in blood on it to cut off man and beast from it,
20 even though Noah, Daniel and Job were in its midst, as I live,” declares the Lord God, “they could not deliver either their son or their daughter. They would deliver only themselves by their righteousness.”
21 For thus says the Lord God, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts and plague to cut off man and beast from it!


So we see these effects occurring in the OT. They are SENT as judgments against both Israel and according to Ezekiel 14:13 against other nations as well in order to satisfy or appease God's wrath (Zechariah 6:8). They influence geopolitical events when nations disobey God.

These effects were sent out by God in the OT era, and here in the Revelation we see the very same effects in the NT era, thus I believe that these spiritual entities described as horses and riders, which Zechariah also describes as horses and riders in chapters 1 and 6,are now under the New Covenant, having experienced only a positional change and now ride by Christ's authority.

The way I see it, the first four seals have been removed already, when Christ entered heaven and instituted the New Covenant era- as the Lamb that was slain. The effects of these seals will continue to be felt throughout the 70th week. So the spirit of the conqueror/wild beasts- will have influence over the Antichrist when he rises to power. He is after all called the "beast" in the Revelation. But the spirit of the conqueror is not limited to the Antichrist, but influences leaders of nations and kingdoms throughout the history of mankind, before the 70th week even begins. We must admit that the effects that these seals have on the earth have been a part of the fabric of time, since man began to cover the earth, and clearly are not limited to occurring exclusively within the 70th week.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:56 pm

Hi Doug,

If the rapture takes place at the time of the resurrection of the martyred tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-6, then who are the ones following Jesus in Revelation 19:14 as he returns to earth?

Revelation 19:14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


They are those who sleep in Jesus that God brings with Him in 1Th 4:14.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:11 pm

Hi RT,

Hi Seeker, I guess I misunderstood, I thought you agreed with me about the 5th seal martyrs, if you don't and you see them as the same group raised in Rev 20 and Rev 6, then again I have to ask what are the white robes, You said why they receive them but not what they actually are- OM answered that they are the righteous deeds of the saints which is true according to scripture, but the question remains why were they given these robes at that time after they had already become souls- You never actually answered this question?


Yes I did here's the quote.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

They passed the test of refusing the MOB and dying because of that choice. When their souls reach heaven they are given the white robes because they gave their lives rather than worship the beast. They then have to wait until the rest of their brothers are killed before God avenges their blood during His wrath.


I get that from this.

Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


One of the elders said that those arrayed in white robes came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That's basically what I said in my response. The white robes are explained in Rev 7.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:56 am

hello Seeker- I have a little time on my hands, I would like to talk more bout these white robes and what they are:

Revelation 6:11
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


The word for white is translated as "light":


white
Strong's Greek #3022
3022 λευκός [leukos /lyoo·kos/] adj. From luke (“light”); TDNT 4:241; TDNTA 530; GK 3328; 25 occurrences; AV translates as “white” 25 times. 1 light, bright, brilliant. 1a brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white. 1a1 of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state. 1a2 shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions. 1a3 of white garments as the sign of innocence and purity of the soul. 1b dead white. 1b1 of the whitening colour of ripening grain.


This is the same word used to describe Jesus as He looked on the mount of transfiguration. Jesus appeared to them in His glorified state. Clothed in dazzling gleaming light.

Revelation 19:7-8
7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.


Rev 19 uses the words bright and clean- the word bright also means shining, brilliant, while "clean" means "pure".

bright
Strong's Greek #2986
2986 λαμπρός [lampros /lam·pros/] adj. From the same as 2985; TDNT 4:16; TDNTA 497; GK 3287; Nine occurrences; AV translates as “bright” twice, “goodly” twice, “white” twice, “gorgeous” once, “gay” once, and “clear” once. 1 shining. 1a brilliant. 1b clear, transparent. 2 splendid, magnificent. 2a splendid things i.e. luxuries or elegancies in dress or style.


It tells us that this robe of fine white linen is the righteousness of the saints. I believe this robe is actually the robe of their glorified righteous body. Which is the raiment of the heavenly holy place- the heavenly tabernacle. The kingdom of priests that enters must put it on. Though we clothe ourselves on earth with Christ and His righteousness, we cannot enter into the actual physical heavenly tabernacle until we put on immortality, our incorruptible glorified body of righteousness. Because our earthly bodies are corrupted by sin, we live in a fallen state as we occupy this body of flesh and blood. Like the high priest who entered into the earthly holy place on the Day of Atonement wearing only white garments made of fine linen, we also enter the heavenly tabernacle in our heavenly priestly robes, when our earthly robes are washed clean by the blood of the lamb. The fifth seal martyrs are under the altar as souls, they are not yet in the heavenly tabernacle, they are under the altar, the altar is before the throne in the heavenly tabernacle, they are under it, in a repository for souls awaiting the day of their resurrection, when they receive their white robes they are receiving their glorified body shrouded in brilliant light, they are being resurrected into the heavenly tabernacle from under the altar.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.


The letters to Sardis and Leodicea both mention these white robes, those who overcome will be clothed in white (same word again meaning "light")
Revelation 3:4-5
4 ‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
5 ‘He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 3:18
18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.

So what does it mean to overcome and when is this garment received? The passage above in Corinthians shows that the perishable puts on the imperishable at the resurrection/rapture. Jesus also tells us that those who overcome as He did will sit on His throne, just as He overcame and sat on the father's throne.

Revelation 3:21
21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


When did He sit on His father's throne? After overcoming death, when he was resurrected and entered into the heavenly tabernacle which is where the throne of God is. So it is at the resurrection/rapture that we overcome in order to be clothed in white garments.

The white robe received by the fifth seal martyrs is in fact the moment of their resurrection. This being the case, they are then told to rest until their number is completed, that number is realized at the resurrection in Revelation 20 of the tribulation saints. Therefore these must be two separate resurrection events, because they receive their robe and then are told to rest until the others are added to their number.

The one thing we do agree on though is that the multitudes standing before the throne of God in Revelation 7 does include the raptured saints.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:46 pm

White robes are what the righteous put on in preparation for the wedding feast- 'For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)' Rev 19

The putting on of the robes would appear to be in preparation for the wedding feast....that occurs at the time of armageddon in Rev 19. The bride usually prepares herself prior to the wedding feast which would suggest that the wedding feast has not yet taken place at the time of Rev 19 prior to armageddon.

Which would be consistent with those under the altar receiving robes prior to the stars falling from the sky and the sky being rolled back and men hiding in the rocks, all consistent with armageddon and the DOTL, as Isa 2 and 34 appear to indicate. The great multitude who come out of the GT also are wearing white robes prior to armageddon.

Jesus Himself states 'Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.' at the time of armageddon, again referring to having clothes in preparation for what is to come.

The preparation for the wedding feast appears to be the putting on of white robes, and the preparation occurs prior to the wedding feast itself, which would then occur around the time of armageddon.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Hi RT,

The white robe received by the fifth seal martyrs is in fact the moment of their resurrection. This being the case, they are then told to rest until their number is completed, that number is realized at the resurrection in Revelation 20 of the tribulation saints. Therefore these must be two separate resurrection events, because they receive their robe and then are told to rest until the others are added to their number.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

God avenges their blood during the wrath of God. Before that day comes the sun/moon and stars go dark. Where is that before the 5th seal? I only see it after the 5th seal.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:46 am

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

God avenges their blood during the wrath of God. Before that day comes the sun/moon and stars go dark. Where is that before the 5th seal? I only see it after the 5th seal.


I don't understand what one has to do with the other, what does avenging their blood have to do with the signs of the sixth seal? I agree that the avenging happens later, which I believes occurs at the pouring of the 3rd bowl- "you have given them blood to drink and they deserve it" bit. They are note being avenged for at the fifth seal, they cannot be avenged until their number is completed, their number is completed during the tribulation. These fifth seal martyrs at least to me are not tribulation saints, but rather those martyrs who have died for their faith since the time of Christ's death and resurrection. They at least IMO are raised to life at the end of the fifth seal, while the raptured saints are shown to arrive after the opening of the sixth seal, I believe that it is the removal of the sixth seal that ties both events together. The dead in Christ are raised first and then those who remain are caught up together with them.

As for this passage:
Revelation 6:15-17
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


I see this one of two ways- either these men of earth are proclaiming the day of wrath- speaking on God's behalf or they are believing that it is the day of wrath and it really isn't. Either way them proclaiming the day of wrath does not mean that the actual wrath has come yet.

There is something very peculiar about this passage- it is the only time in the entire Revelation that we actually hear from the men of earth. This is in direct contrast to all that John had reported up until this moment. Until the removal of the sixth seal, it was the Lord who spoke (dictating the letters) or one of the living creatures, or an angelic being, or the souls under the altar or John himself or the elders- all inhabitants of the spiritual realm. Then suddenly we hear from the men of earth- don't you think that a tad curious?

Jesus said this on the way to Calvary which seems to relate:
Luke 23:28-31
28 But Jesus turning to them said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.
29 “For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bore, and the breasts that never nursed.’
30 “Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’
31 “For if they do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?”


Is Jesus speaking about the coming day of the Lord's wrath? He tells the daughter's of Jerusalem to weep for themselves and their children, because days are coming when they will wish they had never bore children, when they will begin to say- to the mountains- "fall on us" and to the hills "cover us" this is exactly what the men of earth say in Revelation 6:16. Jesus says in Luke, that they will do this when the tree is still green. Note the description of the stars falling like unripe figs, this would be when the tree is green- a preharvest fig tree, which is also the same description Matthew gives in the Parable of the fig tree.
Revelation 6:13-14
13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.
14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


I know I have mentioned this idea before, but if you compare the description in Isaiah where he speaks about the day of the Lord you will see the picture of a post harvest- dry tree:

Isaiah 34:4
4 And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.


So why does John describe the events of the fifth seal in terms of a pre-harvest fig tree, while Isaiah describes the events of the day of the Lord in terms of a post harvest fig tree. I do not think it is an oversight by John, but that the Lord showed it to him this way deliberately, to show that these are two separate events and not the same one. You will also note some other differences, at the sixth seal the stars are falling from the sky, while Isaiah's description has them withering away.

Jesus is saying in Luke that if they are acting this way when the tree is still green then what will they do when it is dry? How will they behave when the harvest is over, when things become more dire? Jesus is pointing out that they will be mistaken by events, behaving prematurely as if the end of the harvest had come. The fig tree represents Israel, I believe Matthew's parable is not speaking about the political rebirth of Israel but rather its spiritual rebirth. The fruit of the fig tree, being the spiritual fruit of Israel.

This is precisely what I believe is happening as the sixth seal is removed, the events that transpire will cause the men who remain on earth to behave prematurely as if it is the end of the 70th week instead of its beginning. If you think about it, it lends itself perfectly to the fulfillment of prophecy. Quite possibly this could be the deception that is sent by God so that those who have not believed in the truth believe what is false.

The real wrath doesn't come until later in the 70th week and that is when the fifth seal martyrs will be avenged.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:12 am

White robes are what the righteous put on in preparation for the wedding feast- 'For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)' Rev 19

The putting on of the robes would appear to be in preparation for the wedding feast....that occurs at the time of armageddon in Rev 19. The bride usually prepares herself prior to the wedding feast which would suggest that the wedding feast has not yet taken place at the time of Rev 19 prior to armageddon.

Which would be consistent with those under the altar receiving robes prior to the stars falling from the sky and the sky being rolled back and men hiding in the rocks, all consistent with armageddon and the DOTL, as Isa 2 and 34 appear to indicate. The great multitude who come out of the GT also are wearing white robes prior to armageddon.

Jesus Himself states 'Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.' at the time of armageddon, again referring to having clothes in preparation for what is to come.

The preparation for the wedding feast appears to be the putting on of white robes, and the preparation occurs prior to the wedding feast itself, which would then occur around the time of armageddon.


Revelation 15:6
6 and the seven angels who had the seven plagues came out of the temple, clothed in linen, clean and bright, and girded around their chests with golden sashes.


How do you explain then that these angels wear the same garments? Unless of course you claim that these angels are actually the same seven angels of the churches that the letters of Revelation were written to,which are men and not angelic beings in which case they are shown to be coming out of the heavenly temple before the end of the tribulation to pour the bowls of wrath upon the earth. Which again would show that they would have had to have been resurrected and clothed in these garments before Armageddon takes place.
Revelation 19:7-8
7 “Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.”
8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.


Just because they are going to a wedding doesn't mean they get dressed for it right before it happens, perhaps they are clothed earlier? Or prior to as you said. She has "made" herself ready-past tense, when in the past is the question.



RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:18 am

Hi RT,

Seeker: Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

God avenges their blood during the wrath of God. Before that day comes the sun/moon and stars go dark. Where is that before the 5th seal? I only see it after the 5th seal.


I don't understand what one has to do with the other, what does avenging their blood have to do with the signs of the sixth seal? I agree that the avenging happens later, which I believes occurs at the pouring of the 3rd bowl- "you have given them blood to drink and they deserve it" bit. They are note being avenged for at the fifth seal, they cannot be avenged until their number is completed, their number is completed during the tribulation. These fifth seal martyrs at least to me are not tribulation saints, but rather those martyrs who have died for their faith since the time of Christ's death and resurrection.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


The sun goes dark before the day of the Lord according to Joel 2:31. You say Jesus returns and raptures the saints at the 5th seal. If Jesus returns at the 5th seal the sun goes dark before that. Where is the sun going dark that happens before Jesus returns in your scenario? Before Jesus gathers the elect we have the sun darkened. So before the 5th seal rapture in your view the sun would need to be darkened which I don't see happen until the 6th seal. You understand now? In order for Jesus to have raptured the elect the sun would have gone dark but that doesn't happen until the 6th seal. It would have to happen at the 4th seal or before to occur before the day of the Lord in which Jesus returns from your perspective.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:43 am

Hi RT,

As for this passage:

Revelation 6:15-17
15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”


I see this one of two ways- either these men of earth are proclaiming the day of wrath- speaking on God's behalf or they are believing that it is the day of wrath and it really isn't. Either way them proclaiming the day of wrath does not mean that the actual wrath has come yet.


These men are sinners how could they speak on behalf of God? So if it isn't the day of wrath why would they be hiding from the presence of Him who sits on the throne. If they are hiding from His presence wouldn't He have to be present? They apparently believe strong enough to go hide in the mountains.

Their actions give up their thoughts. There is a way to find out whether or not there is wrath associated with the cosmic signs of the 6th seal. Lucky for us they are scattered about here and there in scripture. Isaiah was the first to write about it here.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


Behold the day of the lord is on the way. Cruel both with "wrath" and fierce anger. To lay the land desolate and He will destroy the sinners thereof out of it. The stars of heaven and constellations will not give their light, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not cause her light to shine. He will punish the world for their evil and the wicked for their iniquity. We see the cosmic signs at the time of fierce anger and wrath from God. So here we see there is wrath associated with the cosmic signs. Joel also wrote about the cosmic signs.

Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Joe 3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.


Here we see the heathen judged and the cosmic signs.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Here we see the cosmic signs and all the tribes of the earth mourn.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And of course the last example of the cosmic signs associated with the wrath of the Lamb. So we don't have to wonder or speculate we have enough scripture to be certain that wrath accompanies the cosmic signs and the return of Christ.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
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Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:03 pm

The sun goes dark before the day of the Lord according to Joel 2:31. You say Jesus returns and raptures the saints at the 5th seal. If Jesus returns at the 5th seal the sun goes dark before that. Where is the sun going dark that happens before Jesus returns in your scenario? Before Jesus gathers the elect we have the sun darkened. So before the 5th seal rapture in your view the sun would need to be darkened which I don't see happen until the 6th seal. You understand now? In order for Jesus to have raptured the elect the sun would have gone dark but that doesn't happen until the 6th seal. It would have to happen at the 4th seal or before to occur before the day of the Lord in which Jesus returns from your perspective.


Hi Seeker please forgive me, but I am having some real trouble following your reasoning. First of all I never said that Jesus returns at the fifth seal or that the rapture happens then either. All I said was that John sees the resurrection of the fifth seal martyrs, personally I think the actual event happens at the sixth seal, and the rapture happens then too- I think we agree on this. I have already discussed Joel 2:31- I am glad that you revised your view to show that this event happens before the day of the Lord, as earlier in our discussions you did not see it that way.

Please keep in mind that I have a pre-trib view concerning the rapture and therefore I do not see the gathering in Matthew as the same gathering that happens in Revelation 6 and 7. I thought I made that pretty clear early on. I also do not see the sun being darkened in Matthew 24 as the same event that is described at the removal of the sixth seal. Please go back and re-read my posts- I have already discussed this at some length and am not going to rehash it all again-

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:03 pm

Hi RT,

Hi Seeker please forgive me, but I am having some real trouble following your reasoning. First of all I never said that Jesus returns at the fifth seal or that the rapture happens then either. All I said was that John sees the resurrection of the fifth seal martyrs, personally I think the actual event happens at the sixth seal, and the rapture happens then too- I think we agree on this. I have already discussed Joel 2:31- I am glad that you revised your view to show that this event happens before the day of the Lord, as earlier in our discussions you did not see it that way.


by Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:08 am

Hi RT,

You are assuming that the signs of the sixth seal and those described in Matthew are a result of the same event. Yet they are not necessarily the same. Matthew says the sun is darkened and the moon will not give its light and the stars fall from heaven. At the sixth seal however the moon is not darkened but rather is described as looking more like a lunar eclipse, it still shines its light but its light is diminished, it is a full moon that "became like blood". So the moon will shine forth its light at the sixth seal- enough to be seen in the sky. If the sun and moon are totally darkened which is implied in Matthew as well as the OT passages that Matthew quotes, then neither the moon nor the sun would be visible, it would be total darkness. Yet John describes at the sixth seal a sun that appears blackened as sackcloth of hair and a moon that appears as blood- both are visible to him and therefore must be shining forth some small amount of light. IMO it sounds like seismic activity perhaps a volcanic eruption that John is witnessing at the removal of the sixth seal, though that is just my opinion.


No I don't assume very often. You can be fairly certain that anything I say I have scripture that backs the point or I simply don't say it. The whole Post-Wrath theory is laid out that way. I formed the theory around what I could prove with a multitude of scriptures. Now concerning the cosmic signs they are described two different ways as you say. But they are equal descriptions as we can see from here in Joel.

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel uses both of the lunar descriptions together in the same chapter. In one instance he says the moon is dark and in the other he says it is into blood. Joel uses the two interchangeably in the same chapter. Notice that he uses the "blood" description in conjunction with the day of the Lord. The cosmic signs occur before Jesus returns as shown also here in Joel 2.


That was the first time I mentioned Joel 2 in this thread and notice the last sentence. I have underlined it for you. Below is the second time I mentioned Joel 2 in this thread.

by Seeker on Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:30 am

Hi RT,

First of all we need to establish the context of the passage- Joel is speaking of the coming day of the Lord.
Joel 2:1-2
1 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
For the day of the Lord is coming;
Surely it is near,
2 A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness.
As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
So there is a great and mighty people;
There has never been anything like it,
Nor will there be again after it
To the years of many generations.


Notice how he describes the day of the Lord- as a day of clouds and thick darkness.This description continues on through the verse 11 which you posted which goes on to describe the sun and moon being dark and the stars losing their brightness.

Yet this passage says the following

Joel 2:30-31
30 “I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth,
Blood, fire and columns of smoke.
31 “The sun will be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood
Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.


These events happen BEFORE the day of the Lord comes, Joel is not interchanging the events to say they are one in the same, he is describing two separate events- one IS the day of the Lord the other is BEFORE the day of the Lord comes.


Seeker:Let me make sure I am following you here. So you are saying that Joel is describing two seperate events that both have the sun going dark? So the sun goes dark before the day of the Lord then again during the day of the Lord, is that what you are saying?

Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Where would this sun darkening be in scripture so I can look at it? I am kind of confused as to what you are saying exactly.

Thanks,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker

Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm


That was me asking you for clarification concerning Joel 2:


by Seeker on Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Hi RT,

The white robe received by the fifth seal martyrs is in fact the moment of their resurrection. This being the case, they are then told to rest until their number is completed, that number is realized at the resurrection in Revelation 20 of the tribulation saints. Therefore these must be two separate resurrection events, because they receive their robe and then are told to rest until the others are added to their number.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

God avenges their blood during the wrath of God. Before that day comes the sun/moon and stars go dark. Where is that before the 5th seal? I only see it after the 5th seal.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker

Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm


And again I say that the cosmic signs happen before the day of the Lord.

by Seeker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:18 am

Hi RT,

Seeker: Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

God avenges their blood during the wrath of God. Before that day comes the sun/moon and stars go dark. Where is that before the 5th seal? I only see it after the 5th seal.


I don't understand what one has to do with the other, what does avenging their blood have to do with the signs of the sixth seal? I agree that the avenging happens later, which I believes occurs at the pouring of the 3rd bowl- "you have given them blood to drink and they deserve it" bit. They are note being avenged for at the fifth seal, they cannot be avenged until their number is completed, their number is completed during the tribulation. These fifth seal martyrs at least to me are not tribulation saints, but rather those martyrs who have died for their faith since the time of Christ's death and resurrection.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The sun goes dark before the day of the Lord according to Joel 2:31. You say Jesus returns and raptures the saints at the 5th seal. If Jesus returns at the 5th seal the sun goes dark before that. Where is the sun going dark that happens before Jesus returns in your scenario? Before Jesus gathers the elect we have the sun darkened. So before the 5th seal rapture in your view the sun would need to be darkened which I don't see happen until the 6th seal. You understand now? In order for Jesus to have raptured the elect the sun would have gone dark but that doesn't happen until the 6th seal. It would have to happen at the 4th seal or before to occur before the day of the Lord in which Jesus returns from your perspective.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker

Posts: 1944
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm


I have already discussed Joel 2:31- I am glad that you revised your view to show that this event happens before the day of the Lord, as earlier in our discussions you did not see it that way.


You really need to check your facts a bit closer before posting such untrue accusations. I have always said that the cosmic signs shown in Joel 2 occur before the day of the Lord as you can see in my posts above. Check out the Post-Wrath thread I have it written there years ago. 3 times I said I believed the cosmic signs occured before the day of the Lord. The other post was me asking for clarification of what you were saying. I added Seeker: so it is easier to follow in that post. Each time I talk about Joel 2 I say it occurs before the Lord returns.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:12 pm

Hi RT,

Hi Seeker please forgive me, but I am having some real trouble following your reasoning. First of all I never said that Jesus returns at the fifth seal or that the rapture happens then either. All I said was that John sees the resurrection of the fifth seal martyrs, personally I think the actual event happens at the sixth seal, and the rapture happens then too- I think we agree on this. I have already discussed Joel 2:31- I am glad that you revised your view to show that this event happens before the day of the Lord, as earlier in our discussions you did not see it that way.

Please keep in mind that I have a pre-trib view concerning the rapture and therefore I do not see the gathering in Matthew as the same gathering that happens in Revelation 6 and 7. I thought I made that pretty clear early on. I also do not see the sun being darkened in Matthew 24 as the same event that is described at the removal of the sixth seal. Please go back and re-read my posts- I have already discussed this at some length and am not going to rehash it all again-


Ok starting from the 6th seal then. You see the resurrection and rapture at the 6th seal. Now all we have to do is find some scripture that shows when the resurrection of the saints occur and that will also tell us when the 6th seal is.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Would you agree that the resurrection of the saints occurs before the saints possess the kingdom?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:19 am

You really need to check your facts a bit closer before posting such untrue accusations. I have always said that the cosmic signs shown in Joel 2 occur before the day of the Lord as you can see in my posts above. Check out the Post-Wrath thread I have it written there years ago. 3 times I said I believed the cosmic signs occured before the day of the Lord. The other post was me asking for clarification of what you were saying. I added Seeker: so it is easier to follow in that post. Each time I talk about Joel 2 I say it occurs before the Lord returns.


Hi Seeker, I must apologize then, I am very sorry that I have not followed what you are saying more closely. I do find it hard to understand your reasoning at times, and try to see it from your viewpoint, but sometimes it is just difficult to see things the way you do. Ultimately I do not think that either one of us will convince the other. But just so that I am clear about explaining my own view let me try one last time to lay it out there for you and any others who might be following this thread.

Here is my view concerning the "pre-trib timeline"

Seals 1-4 occur during the church age- these are the "birth pains" they intensify throughout the church age and their effects continue throughout the tribulation.

seal 5 shows both an effect and a result- the effect is martyrdom- this also occurs throughout the church age. The result is the resurrection of those martyred throughout the church age shown by their receiving their white robes. This receiving/ resurrection either happens just before the 6th seal or coincident with it.

Seal 6- is I believe what transpires at the time of the rapture/resurrection. Those on earth will behave as if the end of the 70th week is happening when in fact it has not yet begun. To be clear I see this as a fulfillment of Joel 2:31, though not of Joel 2:10 or Matthew 24:29-31. This is also when the sealing of the 144,000 begins. The multitudes that appear before the throne are the resurrected dead in Christ and those who were alive and caught up to join them.

Seal 7- is the "about" a half hour of silence and I believe it's removal starts the 70th week, the "about a half hour" is equal to about a half of the 70th week, which is the "hour of testing" spoken of in the letter to the Philadelphians, in which they are promised to be kept from the hour of testing about to come upon the earth. The sealing of the 144,000 is completed during this time of silence in heaven. The prerequisite given in Revelation 7 states that the earth , sea and trees cannot be harmed until this sealing is completed- this IMO speaks clearly to show that the seals and trumpets can in no way overlap.
Revelation 7:2-3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”


When the sealing of the 144,000 is completed then the trumpets sound

Trumpets 1-4 appear to occur simultaneously or in very close succession sometime just before the half hour mark or middle of the 70th week. Their effects harm 1/3 of the earth, sea (and sea life as well as ships) and trees along with all the grass. Also 1/3 of fresh waters and 1/3 of the light of the sun moon and stars are darkened.

trumpet 5 is the first woe- the bottomless pit is opened and the locusts are released to torment men for five months- this too will occur just before the midpoint, those sealed 144,000 are spared the effects of these demonic locusts arrayed for battle.

trumpet 6 is the second woe-when the four angels are released which causes this great army to go on to kill 1/3 of mankind. Personally I believe that this army is the army of the final kingdom, mystery Babylon and their leader is Gog who is also the Antichrist who will turn on Israel, and then will go on to kill those who refuse the mark and adhere to the word of God. They will martyr the tribulation saints during the later half of the week, beginning with the sounding of the trumpet just before the middle of the week.

trumpet 7 is the third woe- though there is a broad overview given of events both preceding and following this moment I believe the real effect is that Satan and his army of angels will be cast to earth after a war that takes place in heaven, this at least to me is the pivotal moment of the whole revelation, which is why so much detail is given about all the events before and after, to emphasize the monumental event that occurs- Satan being cast down to the earth. The 7th trumpet I believe marks the midpoint of the 70th week, when the beast commits the abomination of desolation and kills the two witnesses and when those in Judea flee to the wilderness for safety.

The bowls are poured toward the end of the week- you will note that the wrath of God is added to the seven plagues.

Bowl 1- those with the mark get malignant sores

Bowl 2-the sea becomes like the blood of a dead man, every living thing in it dies

Bowl 3- fresh water sources are turned to blood- this is where the fifth seal martyrs are avenged, their number having been completed at this time.

Bowl 4- the sun's heat is intensified that it would scorch the men of earth with unbearable heat.

Bowl 5- the kingdom of the beast is darkened, not your average darkness here, but a darkness that produces pain.

Bowl 6-the Euphrates dries up- the kings gather for the final battle at Armageddon

Bowl 7-it is done!- The greatest earthquake the world has ever seen occurs, Jerusalem is split, the cities of the nations fall, Babylon receives the fierce wrath of God, every island flees, and mountains are leveled, 100 lb hailstones fall to earth.

Christ will return to stand on the mount of olives, it is here that I believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is fulfilled. This is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord". The Lord gathers His army those who remain on the earth- the nation of Israel that flees Babylon as it is destroyed as well as those who took refuge in the wilderness, and those in heaven who were previously resurrected /raptured into heaven. The lord will destroy Gog/ the beast and his armies. The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire and Satan is bound.

Following this the tribulation saints are resurrected and the Millennial reign is inaugurated.

That is how I see it- consecutively,with seals followed by trumpets followed by bowls. Though I do believe that the effects of each will overlap,yet each event is initiated consecutively.

I hope this helps you as you try to understand my own view of how the pieces fit together.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:01 pm

Hi RT,

Thanks for the timeline that helps but we still have the issue of the resurrection itself. It seems to me that pre-trib has it exactly backwards. What I referenced in Daniel 7 is the resurrection. Here we see Jesus arrive with the clouds.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Jesus arrives with the clouds of heaven and sets up His kingdom.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


Judgment was set and the books were opened. Jesus was given dominion over all people, nations, and tongues. The rapture has already taken place by that time.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


Here is where the judgment sits and the AC loses his dominion. How does he lose his dominion?

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


The beast/AC was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the flame. This happens when God returns and gives the kingdom to Jesus.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


The AC is destroyed when the Ancient of days came. That is also when we see Jesus with the clouds of heaven returning to earth. We know when the AC is destroyed (Rev 19) so that gives us the time that Jesus returns with the clouds and gives the kingdom to the saints. The resurrection is before the saints possess the kingdom so has to happen between the AC making war with the saints and time the saints possess the kingdom. The fact they are called saints means the resurrection doesn't occur until the 3 1/2 years that the AC has over them expires. It ends by Jesus returning with the clouds and taking his dominion away from him and giving it to the saints. Daniel's vision spans the last half of the last 7 years up to God sitting on His throne and giving the kingdom to Jesus. Since the resurrection of the saints is shown here in Dan 7 that timestamps the resurrection of the saints for us as occuring after the AC's 3 1/2 years have ended.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:19 pm

Hi RT,

Having the saints leave before the sinners presents a problem with a couple of the parables Jesus gives us.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Jesus sowed the seeds in the field so the wheat would be those who are of Christ. When the tares sprung up the servants asked the master if they should weed them out. Jesus said no because you may uproot some of the wheat in the process. Instead He says let both grow together until the harvest. Both wheat and tares are to grow together until the time of the harvest. At the time of the harvest the tares are gathered first.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


In the interpretation that Jesus gives us He says that He sowed the seeds. The field is the world and the good seed are the children of the kingdom. But the tares are children of the wicked one. So the children of the kingdom are to grow together with the children of the wicked one until the time of the harvest which Jesus defines as the end of the world.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


As the tares (children of the wicked one) are gathered and burned in the fire so will it be at the end of the world. Jesus will send forth His angels and they will remove all things that offend and them which do iniquity and cast them into a furnace of fire. Then will the righteous shine forth. Just as in the parable where it says the tares are gathered first we see here in the interpretation that the angels first remove all that offends and then the righteous shine forth in the kingdom. The wicked are removed from among the good leaving the good to inherit the kingdom. We can verify the meaning in another parable in this chapter.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.


One net was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind (good and bad). Both groups are netted in the same net at the same time. So will it be at the end of the world the angels sever the wicked from among the just. To be severed from among the just, the just have to be present at the time the wicked are seperated from them. So instead of the saints being raptured leaving the sinners it is just the opposite. The sinners (wicked) are severed from among the saints (just). It is the sinners that are removed first just as in the wheat/tare parable. Pre-trib is in direct conflict with these simple and straight forward descriptions of the rapture. Evil is removed first in both parables making pre-trib a faulty theory.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:04 pm

Hi Seeker- you sure are keeping me busy :grin:

I will try to do my best to answer each of your points:

What I referenced in Daniel 7 is the resurrection. Here we see Jesus arrive with the clouds.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Jesus arrives with the clouds of heaven and sets up His kingdom.


I don't see a resurrection here, though I do see Jesus coming in the clouds and That He receives His kingdom.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Judgment was set and the books were opened. Jesus was given dominion over all people, nations, and tongues. The rapture has already taken place by that time.


Yes I would agree that the rapture would have already taken place by that time, actually approximately seven years earlier.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Here is where the judgment sits and the AC loses his dominion. How does he lose his dominion?

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The beast/AC was slain, his body destroyed, and given to the flame. This happens when God returns and gives the kingdom to Jesus.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


When God returns and gives the kingdom to Jesus???? Well yes when Jesus returns to claim His kingdom, though the exact moment that the AC is destroyed in the lake of fire could be slightly after the Lord appears in the clouds? I pretty much agree with you.

The AC is destroyed when the Ancient of days came. That is also when we see Jesus with the clouds of heaven returning to earth.

Yes around that time- I agree

We know when the AC is destroyed (Rev 19) so that gives us the time that Jesus returns with the clouds and gives the kingdom to the saints.


Again yes I agree

The resurrection is before the saints possess the kingdom so has to happen between the AC making war with the saints and time the saints possess the kingdom.


Here is where you lose me- I agree that there is a resurrection that occurs before this time seven years prior, and another that occurs after Satan is bound which is the resurrection of the tribulation saints. The Kingdom will be there for all the saints to posses, there is no law that says only those resurrected at a certain moment in time receive the kingdom, the kingdom is given to all the saints, those who would have been resurrected/raptured earlier, those tribulation saints resurrected just after, as well as those of the nation of Israel that will remain on earth alive.

The fact they are called saints means the resurrection doesn't occur until the 3 1/2 years that the AC has over them expires. It ends by Jesus returning with the clouds and taking his dominion away from him and giving it to the saints. Daniel's vision spans the last half of the last 7 years up to God sitting on His throne and giving the kingdom to Jesus. Since the resurrection of the saints is shown here in Dan 7 that timestamps the resurrection of the saints for us as occuring after the AC's 3 1/2 years have ended.


The fact that they are called saints has no bearing on the resurrection as I mentioned just above. The term "saint" means holy one, it is another way of saying "believer" essentially- those justified and sanctified ones. Whether they are alive on earth or whether they have died and are souls, or whether they have been raised in a resurrection event, they are all saints and all receive the kingdom- they do not have to be in the heavenly tabernacle to receive it, all these realms are part of the kingdom. The kingdom is not restricted to only those who have been resurrected, nor is it restricted to some specific corner of heaven or earth. Again what you are showing here in Daniel IMO does not contradict with my view. I agree that the kingdom is handed to the saints after the AC's reign has ended. I fail to see how this disproves a pretrib rapture/resurrection.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:39 pm

Now as for your next post- again I will try not to write a book!
Having the saints leave before the sinners presents a problem with a couple of the parables Jesus gives us.

Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Jesus sowed the seeds in the field so the wheat would be those who are of Christ. When the tares sprung up the servants asked the master if they should weed them out. Jesus said no because you may uproot some of the wheat in the process. Instead He says let both grow together until the harvest. Both wheat and tares are to grow together until the time of the harvest. At the time of the harvest the tares are gathered first.

Mat 13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

In the interpretation that Jesus gives us He says that He sowed the seeds. The field is the world and the good seed are the children of the kingdom. But the tares are children of the wicked one. So the children of the kingdom are to grow together with the children of the wicked one until the time of the harvest which Jesus defines as the end of the world.

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

As the tares (children of the wicked one) are gathered and burned in the fire so will it be at the end of the world. Jesus will send forth His angels and they will remove all things that offend and them which do iniquity and cast them into a furnace of fire. Then will the righteous shine forth. Just as in the parable where it says the tares are gathered first we see here in the interpretation that the angels first remove all that offends and then the righteous shine forth in the kingdom. The wicked are removed from among the good leaving the good to inherit the kingdom. We can verify the meaning in another parable in this chapter.

Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

One net was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind (good and bad). Both groups are netted in the same net at the same time. So will it be at the end of the world the angels sever the wicked from among the just. To be severed from among the just, the just have to be present at the time the wicked are seperated from them. So instead of the saints being raptured leaving the sinners it is just the opposite. The sinners (wicked) are severed from among the saints (just). It is the sinners that are removed first just as in the wheat/tare parable. Pre-trib is in direct conflict with these simple and straight forward descriptions of the rapture. Evil is removed first in both parables making pre-trib a faulty theory.


Actually I see that this parable presents a problem with any resurrection that occurs before the white throne Judgment, as it shows the ingathering of the wicked before the ingathering of the righteous.

Matthew 13:28-30
28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


Here you have the heart of the parable- both tares and wheat grow together in the field of the world until harvest, we are told that the tares are the sons of the evil one and the wheat are the righteous- the sons of the kingdom, the harvest is the end of the age. This is clearly a harvest of souls. It is important to understand that the reaping is the cutting off of the life of the grain and it would represent a person's death not necessarily their resurrection. Gathering in would represent IMO a resurrection event. The tares are gathered first and burned in the fire and the wheat is then gathered into the Lord's barn, there is only one resurrection shown to occur that involves the wicked and that occurs after the 1000 year reign when the present heavens and earth are destroyed and the white throne judgment occurs.

This reaping in Matthew's parable is performed by angels, which seems to contradict the passage in Revelation 14:14-16 which seems to show us Christ doing the reaping:

Revelation 14:14-16
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.


Again this goes back to the whole order of the resurrection discussion we had earlier, there is no contradiction, it is only a matter of which resurrection event Christ was referring to in the parable.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.


Three resurrection events are spoken of here
Christ the first fruits are the first to be made alive,
after that- those who are Christ's at His coming
then comes the end- the final resurrection which occurs at the end of the millennial reign.

I spoke of this before but will reiterate again- the short version :grin:

The church who is the body of Christ are the Christ firstfruits, Christ's resurrection occurred on the date of the barley firstfruits wave offering and thus we as His body would also be associated with the firstfruits of the barley harvest.

Those that are Christ's at His coming, those tribulation saints are raised after the Christ firstfruits, these IMO might also be associated with the barley harvest- though perhaps not firstfruits??? ( I am uncertain)

Then comes the end, when all those who come to Christ, who die (are reaped) during the millennium will be raised at its conclusion, the tares are also raised at this time (gathered up) the tares are cast into the lake of fire and the righteous enter into the "Lord's barn" (New Jerusalem?). These IMO are associated with the wheat harvest and I believe the 144,000 are the "firstfruits" of the wheat harvest.

So again I fail to see any contradiction in this parable that would rule out a pretrib rapture.

RT

Three harvests of the Lord- Unleavened Bread- barley first fruits, Pentecost- Wheat first fruits and Tabernacles- the rest of the wheat.

In this light the parable makes complete sense.
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:47 pm

Hi RT,

I don't see a resurrection here, though I do see Jesus coming in the clouds and That He receives His kingdom.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus coming in the clouds is the rapture/resurrection.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Jesus arrives with clouds and every eye sees Him.

Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Jesus says He will arrive in the clouds of heaven. When we see Jesus with clouds we know He is arriving at that time.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Here in Dan 7 we see Jesus arrive in the clouds just as He describes in the scriptures above. That connects the arrival of Jesus in Dan 7 to the rapture of 1Th 4:17 where we meet Him in the clouds.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:50 pm

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus coming in the clouds is the rapture/resurrection.


Meeting together in the clouds doesn't necessarily have to happen at the same time that Jesus returns does it? Scripture does not explicitly say that Jesus returning in the clouds is a resurrection event does it? Daniel doesn't say anything about the saints being raised at that time, nor does Matthew. Isn't it possible that the raptured and resurrected saints meet Jesus in the clouds which people on earth do not necessarily see, they may see something, some celestial signs but they do not recognize or see Jesus, perhaps the clouds obscure this event from the people of earth, we cannot really know what it will look like- only that we will meet in the air and that seven years later Jesus returns on the clouds making Himself visible for all to see?

When Jesus ascended a cloud received Him out of view:

Acts 1:9
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.


Isn't it possible that the clouds believers are caught up into will obscure them too?

Also Scripture tells us it will happen very fast, in a moment, in the amount of time it takes to blink your eyes, so again not something that the people of earth are going to see.

1 Corinthians 15:52
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.



RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:50 am

Hi RT,

Meeting together in the clouds doesn't necessarily have to happen at the same time that Jesus returns does it?


Yes you need to read 1Th4 closer.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


God brings those who sleep in Jesus with Him. God heads to earth with the souls of those who died believing in Jesus we see them here as well.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


The Lord arrives with ten thousands of His "saints". They are the dead in Christ that sleep in 1Th4. They arrive with Jesus and then we who are alive and remain meet them in the air. Our meeting Jesus in the air occurs when He heads to earth with His saints.

Isn't it possible that the raptured and resurrected saints meet Jesus in the clouds which people on earth do not necessarily see, they may see something, some celestial signs but they do not recognize or see Jesus,


Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

You would do much better to stick to scripture rather than such speculation. Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him. Not recognize Him when He said even those that pierced Him would see Him. All kindreds of earth will wail. So who else is there besides all kindreds?

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Seeker on Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:20 am

Hi RT,

Actually I see that this parable presents a problem with any resurrection that occurs before the white throne Judgment, as it shows the ingathering of the wicked before the ingathering of the righteous.


The problem that you see is created by your pre-trib stance.

Here you have the heart of the parable- both tares and wheat grow together in the field of the world until harvest, we are told that the tares are the sons of the evil one and the wheat are the righteous- the sons of the kingdom, the harvest is the end of the age. This is clearly a harvest of souls. It is important to understand that the reaping is the cutting off of the life of the grain and it would represent a person's death not necessarily their resurrection. Gathering in would represent IMO a resurrection event. The tares are gathered first and burned in the fire and the wheat is then gathered into the Lord's barn, there is only one resurrection shown to occur that involves the wicked and that occurs after the 1000 year reign when the present heavens and earth are destroyed and the white throne judgment occurs.


Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

So the children of the kingdom are resurrected after the 1,000 years? You will have to pvove that with scripture. The kingdom is established at the beginning of the 1000 not at the end as you suggest the parable means.

This reaping in Matthew's parable is performed by angels, which seems to contradict the passage in Revelation 14:14-16 which seems to show us Christ doing the reaping:


Show me the angels doing the reaping after the 1,000 years.

Three resurrection events are spoken of here
Christ the first fruits are the first to be made alive,
after that- those who are Christ's at His coming
then comes the end- the final resurrection which occurs at the end of the millennial reign.

I spoke of this before but will reiterate again- the short version

The church who is the body of Christ are the Christ firstfruits, Christ's resurrection occurred on the date of the barley firstfruits wave offering and thus we as His body would also be associated with the firstfruits of the barley harvest.

Those that are Christ's at His coming, those tribulation saints are raised after the Christ firstfruits, these IMO might also be associated with the barley harvest- though perhaps not firstfruits??? ( I am uncertain)


The first resurrection you speak of is the resurrection of Christ here.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Christ became the firstfruits of those that slept when He was raised from the dead. One down two to go. After Christ's resurrection we have the next one which includes they that are Christs at His coming.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Jesus raises "all" that He is given on the last day. Everyone that sees and believes in Jesus will be raised on the last day. That leaves no room for another resurrection of the dead in Christ. Every single one that He is given is raised at the last day according to John. That is the big problem with pre-trib it simply does not match what the bible says concerning the resurrection/rapture.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 am

Meeting together in the clouds doesn't necessarily have to happen at the same time that Jesus returns does it?



Yes you need to read 1Th4 closer.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

God brings those who sleep in Jesus with Him. God heads to earth with the souls of those who died believing in Jesus we see them here as well.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The Lord arrives with ten thousands of His "saints". They are the dead in Christ that sleep in 1Th4. They arrive with Jesus and then we who are alive and remain meet them in the air. Our meeting Jesus in the air occurs when He heads to earth with His saints.

Isn't it possible that the raptured and resurrected saints meet Jesus in the clouds which people on earth do not necessarily see, they may see something, some celestial signs but they do not recognize or see Jesus,



Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

You would do much better to stick to scripture rather than such speculation. Every eye will see Him even those who pierced Him. Not recognize Him when He said even those that pierced Him would see Him. All kindreds of earth will wail. So who else is there besides all kindreds?

Peace,
Seeker


Hello again,

You are specualting as well my friend. You are making the assumption that Christ's visible return must be the same event as the rapture/resurrection, just because clouds are involved and saints are involved in both. There is nothing in scripture that dictates both events must happen at the same time. I agree that when Christ returns to earth at the end of the 70th week- that every eye will see Him coming, in/on/with the clouds and that the "saints" will be coming with Him. The "saints being those who were raptured and those dead who were raised- we agree. But there is nothing in any of the passages that says when they are raptured or raised- only that they had to have arrived at some point before Christ returns to earth. You say it has to happen at precisely that moment just as Christ is returning. I say it can happen seven years earlier and that they will follow Christ from heaven when He returns at the end of the 70th week.

You are ascribing a rule to the passage that doesn't actually exist- except in your own mind.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:41 am

The problem that you see is created by your pre-trib stance.


Well perhaps the problem is that what you see is created by your post-trib stance.- "touche"

Show me the angels doing the reaping after the 1,000 years.


The Lord said angels will reap and I believe Him, just because we cannot point to a passage in the revelation doesn't mean it won't happen.

The first resurrection you speak of is the resurrection of Christ here.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ became the firstfruits of those that slept when He was raised from the dead. One down two to go. After Christ's resurrection we have the next one which includes they that are Christs at His coming.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus raises "all" that He is given on the last day. Everyone that sees and believes in Jesus will be raised on the last day. That leaves no room for another resurrection of the dead in Christ. Every single one that He is given is raised at the last day according to John. That is the big problem with pre-trib it simply does not match what the bible says concerning the resurrection/rapture.


We've already gone through this debate- I happen to disagree with your conclusions, and if every single one is raised on THE LAST DAY- then that would also rule out a post trib resurrection because "the last day" would be the very last day of the Millennium wouldn't it?

Oh but you see it depends on how you interpret "the last day" doesn't it? You interpret it in light of your own view, while I interpret in light of mine.

That is why these debates are so often fruitless, because ultimately it all boils down to what foundation you lay as a basis for interpretation. Personally I believe that scripture does support a pre-trib rapture view, I could also see how someone might find support for a mid-trib or pre-wrath view. You have failed to persuade me that there is any basis at all for a post-trib view. And likely I will fail to persaude you of a pre-trib view.

You started this post asking for someone to put forth a pre-trib timeline and to defend or debate it. I feel I have done exactly that. At this point I feel that I have made my case and though I am willing to continue our debate, I just don't see the benefit of rehashing what was already debated.

For now I am taking a break- I have a lot going on in the next few weeks and other than brief posts I just don't really have the time to spend here.

God bless you

RT
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