Pre-trib timeline

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:37 am

Hi Mark T,

I appreciate your attempts to set me straight, really, I am glad for the challenge. But I cannot help believing that you are incorrect in your interpretation. Whether the word is collect of gather, to me it is moot. The tares are collected and tied in bundles,in order to be cast into the fire, the fire doesn't come to them they go into the fire. The Lord's own words give the interpretation-

Matthew 13:41-42
41 “The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

They are collected and thrown into the furnace of fire, this is clearly their eternal condemnation. This is not my interpretation but the Lord's own. Please show me where in scripture stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness are cast into the furnace of fire that is not coincident with the judgment of the wicked and their eternal condemnation?

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


Those cast into the lake of fire would include the stumbling blocks and lawless ones correct?

The whole point to the parable is that as long as there are mortals inhabiting the earth the wicked will reside among the righteous. But one day the wicked will be removed from among the righteous, they will no longer have any place in the kingdom of God.

Your interpretation that the tares are left standing in the field to be burned makes no sense at all. Have you ever tried to burn weeds out of the grass? People where I live on occasion deliberately set grass fires to kill grass. The problem is that the weeds grow right back, and in short order the grass does too. No farmer would burn weeds in a standing field, the seeds would not necessarily be destroyed, but they would risk polluting the field with the scorched seeds of the very thing they are trying to eradicate.

The collecting clearly is a pulling up because the servants were not allowed to "collect" them in the first place because they would risk upsetting or uprooting the wheat in the process.

Matthew 13:28-29 (parenthesis mine)
28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’( συλλέγω [sullego ])
29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering( συλλέγω [sullego ]) up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.


If by collecting as you say they are left to stand, why would collecting them uproot the standing wheat? It makes no logical sense.
There's that word "clearly" again - and you are ignoring verse 38 which says they are first burned in the field of this world.

It says nothing of the kind, where do you see that??

Matthew 13:38
38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

Subsequent to the first Resurrection is the second. At that time, all the dead (there are no living people left, the universe will be destroyed at the end of the Millennium) will be collected and they will be separated as the second parable of the fish indicate. It is only at this time that the wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire.


Collected? And Separated? My point exactly.... The fact that there are no mortals remaining has nothing to do with it. The collection is a resurrection, all the dead are resurrected:

John 5:28-29
28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Two kinds of resurrection, one to life and one to judgment.

Also why would you interpret the same result for the tares and the bad fish as meaning different things? You say the burning of the tares is this:
The tares are burned in the field.
The field is identified as the world as the first explanation of the parable, v 38.

and

The tares first are subject to an earthly, physical destruction beginning on the Day of the Lord -


The end for the tares according to the parable:
Matthew 13:42
42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


while you claim the burning of the bad fish means:
Subsequent to the first Resurrection is the second. At that time, all the dead (there are no living people left, the universe will be destroyed at the end of the Millennium) will be collected and they will be separated as the second parable of the fish indicate. It is only at this time that the wicked are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

The end for the bad fish according to the parable:
Matthew 13:50
50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


How is it possible that the burning of the tares is a different kind of burning than the fish, when the result in both parables is virtually identical?

I would suggest that you are interpreting the parable in order to fit your own ideas regarding the resurrection of the righteous.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:56 am

let me ask you this Mark,

What happens to the saints who are living in Jerusalem on earth at the end of the millennium?

Are these saints mortals or are they resurrected saints?

And lastly who are those who are the dead in the sea?
Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.



At the final judgment death and hades give up their dead, but so does the sea. Death and Hades are cast into the lake of fire along with all those whose names are not found in the book of life. But what about the sea?

We are told that on the new earth there will be no more sea? Do you believe this is referring to the sea as in waters of the earth? Why would death and Hades give up their dead, as repositories for wicked souls while the waters of the earth give up their dead? Are the oceans a repository for dead souls? And why if the wicked souls are raised from the sea which is a repository for their souls, why isn't the sea destroyed in the lake of fire along with hades and death?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:40 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I appreciate your attempts to set me straight, really, I am glad for the challenge. But I cannot help believing that you are incorrect in your interpretation. Whether the word is collect of gather, to me it is moot. The tares are collected and tied in bundles,in order to be cast into the fire, The Lord sends the fire down onto them and then later, they go into the lake of Fire. The Lord's own words give the interpretation-

38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

Wow, you're right!

Collecting IS a different action than gathering and the weeds are, like every farming application around the world does it - burned in the field of this world with the first Trumpet!

The Harvest gathering of the Elect leaves the wicked behind to suffer God's Wrath and the first part of that which comes coincidentally on the Day of the lord is fire!

So we're going to have to agree to disagree! LOL.
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to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Pre-trib timeline.......


Zech. 14:1....Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee....

2...For I will gather all Nations against Jerusalem to BATTLE; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifiled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go foth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city...

Matt 24:15....When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of y Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16...Then let them which be in Judea flee into the Mountains:
21....For then shall be great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the World to this time, no nor ever shall be.....

Zech. 14:3....Then shall the Lord Go Forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of Battle...
4...And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very gret valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south...

5...And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the Earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord My God shall come, and all the saints with thee...

6...And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7...But it shall be One day shich shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to Pass, that at evening time it shall be light..
Zech 14:3...Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle...


9...And the Lord shall be king over all the Earth: in thtat day shall there be one Lord, and his Name One...

Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:39 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....

Zech 14:12.....And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem;
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon thei feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth...
13....And it shall come to pass in that day, that a geat tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour..
14....And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of ALL the heathren round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance..
14....And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ***, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as the plague...

16....AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT EVERY ONE THAT IS LEFT of all the Nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, The Lord of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles...

Matt. 24:21..For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no nor ever shall be....
Zec. 14:16....And is shall come to pass that every one that is left....of all the Nations....which come against Jerusalem
shall go up from year to year....
every one that is left......
Matt. 24:29....Immediately...After the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heaven shall be shaken....(the earth shall shift)
30...And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in Heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth Mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of Heaven with Power and Great Glory...

31...AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET.. and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the Other...
32...Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When His Branch is Yet Tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is Nigh:
33...So Likewise Ye, When ye shall see alla these things, know that is is near...Even at the Doors...

34...Verily I Say Unto You...This Generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfillled...
35...Heaven and Earth shall pass away, But My Words shall not pass away....

I believe we are that Generation......
44....Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man Cometh...

Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:26 pm

So we're going to have to agree to disagree! LOL.


yes unfortunately this is quite so, if that is how you want to leave it, though I would have liked to have heard your answers to my questions, seems that this is where everyone quits on me. Oh well perhaps another time.

Does anyone else here see the point I am making? Am I completely without basis ? Does anyone else want to weigh in here?

God bless you

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:41 pm

Mrs. B wrote:44....Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man Cometh...


:a3:
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:43 pm

Hi RT,

I would like to hear your explanation of the sea.

I guess no one really knows what's at the bottom of the sea/ocean.

All I know is that it's pretty dark and cold down there. :mrgreen:

:dunno:
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:50 pm

MarkT wrote: The Millennium exists so that all of Israel will be saved.


Hi Mark T,

Are you suggesting that all Israel will not be saved until the end of the millennium?

Romans 11

1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:52 pm

Hi watching,

Well here's a question why would the sea, as in the ocean- the physical gathering of water on the earth be listed alongside death and Hades as a repository for souls of the dead? Death and Hades are physical places that reside within the spiritual dimension. Why then should the "sea" not also represent a physical place also within the spiritual dimension?

Perhaps before I explain, you might want to go back and answer the questions I put to Mark. If you wouldn't mind indulging me that is.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:59 pm

Hi RT,

I wish I knew the answer to those questions, but I really don't have a clue.

:dunno:
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:14 pm

That's ok watching, when I have more time and am more awake I will explain my thoughts more clearly concerning the sea and give you my answers. But in the meantime you might want to consider them a bit.

Nighty night

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:23 pm

Okay.

:goodnight: , RT.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:01 pm

So sorry, didn't mean to blow you off like that. I looked at your questions, and they literally don't "compute" to me.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:1. What happens to the saints who are living in Jerusalem on earth at the end of the millennium?

2. Are these saints mortals or are they resurrected saints?

3. And lastly who are those who are the dead in the sea?

1. I'm not sure at all by what you mean when you say "saints."

The Priests (us) who are in God's Camp at Jerusalem are not going to be hurt by the rebellion at the end of the Millennium. I think they (we) would be like Angels who are immune to the slings and arrows of this world now.

The Jews who are living around Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium (I'd have to do so more study of Ezekiel to determine if any of the twelve tribes so listed actually have been given title to and then so inhabit Jerusalem) would be part of the rebellion, if 'all' means the entire world's population of mortal beings.

2. Again, I'm not sure what you're asking. We are as Priests during the Millennium. There will be sheep who live during the Millennium who would equate to us now... Can you be more specific?

3. I never studied it; I just race over that and simply think that every conceivable place where souls could reside spiritually is emptied at the end of the Millennium with the Bema Seat Judgment. There may be some secret here in either a literal or figurative fashion; it doesn't concern me too much either way even now that you have brought it to light.

The end of the Millennium is not the end of the new Earth.

That New Earth is formed after the Millennium is over. Today (A.D. 2012) is still Saturday according to Genesis' first creation account. That day will go through the Millennium. When God creates the New Heavens and the New Earth, it will be the start of a new week on Sunday.
Last edited by MarkT on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:07 pm

MarkT wrote: The Millennium exists so that all of Israel will be saved.

watching wrote:Are you suggesting that all Israel will not be saved until the end of the millennium?

I am suggesting that the reason for the Millennium is so all of Israel will be saved. The remnant who follow Christ through the wilderness during the Wrath of God so as to escape it, and make it through the 30 and 45 day periods will come to Christ with His unveiling to them. They will die believing and worshipping as we do. Others will live and die during the Millennium. Although life will be longer than it is today, they are not so long-lived so as to never die once being born in the Millennium.

At the end of the Millennial, the whole world rises up with the seventh head of the same beast that afflicts us now. That seventh head will only remain a short while; the insurrection will be short-lived. The whole world follows this demon-inspired person. Everyone is destoryed; there are no survivors, no remnant.

That is how I read this short passage in the Bible:

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth —Gog and Magog —and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:22 pm

Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.



1. I'm not sure at all by what you mean when you say "saints."

The Priests (us) who are in God's Camp at Jerusalem are not going to be hurt by the rebellion at the end of the Millennium. I think they (we) would be like Angels who are immune to the slings and arrows of this world now.

The Jews who are living around Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium (I'd have to do so more study of Ezekiel to determine if any of the twelve tribes so listed actually have been given title to and then so inhabit Jerusalem) would be part of the rebellion, if 'all' means the entire world's population of mortal beings.


Revelation 20:9
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.


who are these saints? Who are those who live on earth and occupy the earthly Millennial kingdom?

2. Again, I'm not sure what you're asking. We are as Priests during the Millennium. There will be sheep who live during the Millennium who would equate to us now... Can you be more specific?


Are there righteous mortals that will reside on earth in the millennial kingdom?

Isaiah 65:20
20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.


Most people look at this passage and say, these who live in Jerusalem during the millennium will not die. But that is not what the passage says. What is says is that the one who dies before they reach the age of 100 will be thought of as accursed but the one who dies at the age of 100 will be thought of as young. Not only does it not say these people are immortal, but it actually says that those who die at 100 years of age will be thought of a youngsters, in other words though they live long lives, they can and some may actually die. They are mortals, they will age, the passage goes on to say that they will bare children. This is not possible for those who have been resurrected.
Isaiah 65:23
23 “They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.


So if these mortals inhabit the city of Jerusalem, then they are saints on the earth during the millennium, what happens to them when they die? What happens to them at the end of the millennium?


3. I never studied it; I just race over that and simply think that every conceivable place where souls could reside spiritually is emptied at the end of the Millennium with the Bema Seat Judgment. There may be some secret here in either a literal or figurative fashion; it doesn't concern me too much either way even now that you have brought it to light.


Well I happen to think it is a very important little detail overlooked by just about everyone. Because if Hades and death give up their dead, and their dead are those whose names do not appear in the book of life, then what is the sea? And whose souls reside there? I personally believe that these are the souls of the righteous who will have died during the millennium, and that the "sea" is no other than the "crystal sea" that John describes earlier in the revelation.

The end of the Millennium is not the end of the new Earth.

That New Earth is formed after the Millennium is over.


Yes I know and am not suggesting that the new earth is ever destroyed, what I said is that on the new earth that is created after the Millennium there will be no more sea:

Revelation 21:1
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.


So what is the sea, that no longer exists? Is it the same sea that gives up its dead?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:53 pm

Okay Watching and other interested parties, here are my thoughts concerning the sea.


In Solomon's temple the "sea" (1 Kings 7) was the the place where the priests washed in order to purify themselves in order to perform their temple duties, it was a baptism of sorts. We are told in scripture that the pattern for both the tabernacle and the temple were given by God, and were based on the pattern of the heavenly tabernacle. Therefore the "sea" of the temple has a heavenly counterpart, which John also describes as the "sea",
Revelation 4:5-6
5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;
6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind.


(I copied and pasted some of this from another thread where I shared it)

On earth the priests could not enter the holy place without cleansing themselves or they would die. In the tabernacle it was the bronze laver that was used by the priests to wash in, this laver in the tabernacle was rather small, in contrast the sea of Solomon's temple was very large, the size of a 24 foot swimming pool, but it performed the same function. The laver and later the sea was I believe patterned after the crystal sea. No one can enter the heavenly holy place without passing through the crystal sea. I believe this "sea" acts as a portal into the heavenly place- the multitudes in Rev. 7 stand before the throne, presumably on this sea, Revelation 14 describes the tribulation martyrs as "standing on the sea of glass". This heavenly sea is not small, it is an expanse. Both Moses and Ezekiel describe it from the earthly perspective. Moses calls it a sapphire pavement as clear as the sky in Exodus 24:10:
Exodus 24:9-10
9 Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10 and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.


Ezekiel describes it as an expanse with the awesome gleam of crystal in Ezekiel 1:22, he is able to see through this expanse to see the throne above it in Ezekiel 1:26.
Ezekiel 1:22
22 Now over the heads of the living beings there was something like an expanse, like the awesome gleam of crystal, spread out over their heads.

Ezekiel 1:25-26
25 And there came a voice from above the expanse that was over their heads; whenever they stood still, they dropped their wings.
26 Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance; and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man.


In Ezekiel the word expanse is defined by strong's as:
expanse,
Strong's Hebrew #7549
7549 רָקִיעַ [raqiya` /raw·kee·ah/] n m. From 7554; TWOT 2217a; GK 8385; 17 occurrences; AV translates as “firmament” 17 times. 1 extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament. 1a expanse (flat as base, support). 1b firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above). 1b1 considered by Hebrews as solid and supporting ‘waters’ above.


I find it interesting that the Hebrew thought behind this word is that it is a firmament that supports waters above.

The term Ezekiel uses- "crystal" actually means like "ice" in Hebrew. It also shows us the location of this expanse, it is below the throne, Moses also describes it as being under God's feet. So if we were to draw a picture of the heavenly tabernacle, the "sea" would act as it's floor.

On this floor rests the heavenly altar of incense before the throne of God, the same altar that John sees here as well as in other passages:

Revelation 6:9-10
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


Note that John sees them under the altar, remember these are the souls of the righteous dead, who died as martyrs that he sees and hears; the altar acts as an intercom conveying the prayers of all the saints both from the earthly realm of the living and also from the realm of the dead. If the floor of the heavenly tabernacle is in fact the crystal sea and the altar rests on it, then the souls which are under it must be in the sea, a dimension that is unseen to human eyes.

Paul speaks about paradise here:

2 Corinthians 12:2-5
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
5 On behalf of such a man I will boast; but on my own behalf I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses.


He describes it as existing in the "third heaven" where this person was "caught up to". Also in Revelation 20 we see the following:

Revelation 20:13
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.


The sea gives up its dead. I was always taught that this sea was some earthly ocean, but it doesn't make any sense, death and Hades exist in the spiritual dimension as repositories for souls, thus the sea would also exist in the spiritual dimension and act as a repository for souls, in my opinion the souls of the righteous. Which also explains why there is no more "sea" when the new earth is created.

Revelation 21:1
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.


There is no longer a need for a portal to enter into the heavenly tabernacle because God will now tabernacle among men, there will no longer be a heavenly temple (Revelation 21:22) No longer any repository for righteous souls because there will be no more death. (Revelation 21:4).

So when John sees the souls under the altar- they are within the crystal sea- likely in paradise, the repository for the souls of the righteous. When souls pass through this "sea" to enter the throne room they undergo a baptism of sorts in order to enter, they receive their white robe of a glorified body, their priestly garments.

While the wicked are raised from death and Hades to a resurrection of judgment. Those who are raised from the "sea" are those who are the righteous, the kingdom of priests sanctified and purified to God for all eternity. So when the passage in Rev. 20 shows the sea giving up its dead, it is IMO giving up those righteous souls who will have died during the millennial reign of Christ. Those souls who make up the wheat harvest which I believe the parable in Matt 13 is speaking of.

I don't have all the answers, but this just seems to make sense to me. The sea is not destroyed like Hades and death, because it is not associated with evil. The reason there is no longer any sea in the new heavens or earth is simply because it is no longer a necessary component of the kingdom- all things become new. No more temple- no more sea.


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:13 pm

The idea that there will be righteous souls resurrected from the "sea" at the end of the millennium, is not a mainstream idea. I understand the difficulty in believing what I am saying, which I am fine with. You must draw your own conclusions according to the word of God. But I find only support from scripture and no contradiction at least none that anyone has yet convinced me of. I also realize I may be entirely wrong, I am okay with that too. Though as yet I have no reason to believe so, however I am not so proud to admit that much of what i claim is speculation based only in part on what I believe scripture says.

I believe that 1 Corinthians 15:20 -25 teaches that there is more than one resurrection for the righteous. That there are in fact three. One that occurs before Christ returns, one that occurs after He returns and one that occurs after the millennial reign.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:32 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I don't have all the answers, but this just seems to make sense to me.

There's a saying I saw printed up one time and I really like it and it may be appropriate here as you just begin to scratch the surface of your studies:

Don't believe everything you think.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:52 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:who are these saints? Who are those who live on earth and occupy the earthly Millennial kingdom?

Don't you know?

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Are there righteous mortals that will reside on earth in the millennial kingdom?

Ah, yes!

You're asking this, and ready to say you have the "sea" all figured out? I haven't even looked to determine who is residing in Jerusalem yet...

That they are holy is true because of the word: hagios. However, that term could be applied to more than one set of people - however, I prefer to think it refers to the Israelites living in Jerusalem rather than us who serve the Lord as Priests... but then again it could refer to us. The text is not clear at this point. I will have to read Ezekiel very closely and see if there is any hint in the apportionment of land for Israel in the Millennium which indicates who lives in God's city.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:So if these mortals inhabit the city of Jerusalem, then they are saints on the earth during the millennium, what happens to them when they die? What happens to them at the end of the millennium?

Then their names are in the Book of Life and they join the Elect as the Sheep and enter into eternal Life with us. That is the point of the Millennium: for all of Israel to be saved.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby watching on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:00 pm

Hi RT,

Very interesting thoughts about the sea!

Thanks for sharing that.

As you said, this is just speculation, at this point, but it does seem to make a lot of sense. :grin:

Nevertheless, I guess we will have to wait and sea.....I mean see. :mrgreen:
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:14 pm

You're asking this, and ready to say you have the "sea" all figured out? I haven't even looked to determine who is residing in Jerusalem yet...


I am asking this because I want to see what your answer is, I already know what my answer is, I have looked extensively at who lives on earth as part of the Millennial kingdom, which is why I think I might have a clue concerning the sea, though I never said I have it "all figured out" I merely believe that it makes sense and doesn't contradict what I believe the scriptures teach.

That they are holy is true because of the word: hagios. However, that term could be applied to more than one set of people - however, I prefer to think it refers to the Israelites living in Jerusalem rather than us who serve the Lord as Priests... but then again it could refer to us. The text is not clear at this point. I will have to read Ezekiel very closely and see if there is any hint in the apportionment of land for Israel in the Millennium which indicates who lives in God's city.


It is Rev 20 that says that the "saints" are encamped at Jerusalem, I also believe like you that these saints (people)are primarily of the nation of Israel since Ezekiel does give the land to them though there is a provision for the "alien" as well- so those saints encamped at Jerusalem are both Jew and some gentiles as well.

Ezekiel 47:21-23
21 “So you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel.
22 “You shall divide it by lot for an inheritance among yourselves and among the aliens who stay in your midst, who bring forth sons in your midst. And they shall be to you as the native-born among the sons of Israel; they shall be allotted an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
23 “And in the tribe with which the alien stays, there you shall give him his inheritance,” declares the Lord God.


My other question to you is- what do you believe happens to these "saints" at the end of the Millennium, and to those who are righteous that die during the millennium??

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:17 pm

There's a saying I saw printed up one time and I really like it and it may be appropriate here as you just begin to scratch the surface of your studies:

Don't believe everything you think.


Please refrain from cloaking insults with good intentions

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:53 am

MarkT wrote:Don't believe everything you think.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Please refrain from cloaking insults with good intentions

It's not an insult RT; it's good advice to keep me humble that I'm passing onto you free of charge. Some people pay big bucks for this kind of advice...

I have dealt with delusional people. I still deal with two people that "we" (two separate groups of people) collectively think are delusional. We can see it, but they cannot. The funny thing is they are absolutely convinced of their own delusion despite our attempts to persuade them otherwise with plain facts. I am not talking about psychotic individuals either, but functional adults with, in one case, superior intelligence. Remember: denial is not just a river in Egypt, but if you're in denial - you will not see it, but you'll still be soaking wet.

So far, your study has been most disjointed, stringing together everything with 'sea.' Your conclusion so far also reminds me of the joke: 'The only exercise I get is jumping to conclusions!' Ergo, some time for meditation might be in order and further word study than just the Strongs' Concordance might get you down a little deeper into the various shades of meaning which we could apply. In the end, there may never be a single interpretaton.

Word to the wise.
Last edited by MarkT on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:56 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:My other question to you is- what do you believe happens to these "saints" at the end of the Millennium, and to those who are righteous that die during the millennium??

Asked and answered already:
MarkT wrote:Then their names are in the Book of Life and they join the Elect as the Sheep and enter into eternal Life with us. That is the point of the Millennium: for all of Israel to be saved.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:26 am

MarkT, your implied insults toward members is totally inappropriate and cannot be tolerated on a Christian board. You need some time away to prayerfully consider the tone of your posts.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Douggg on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:44 am

MarkT wrote:That is the point of the Millennium: for all of Israel to be saved.


"all of Israel" ?

Actually, in the KJV the "of" is not in Romans 11:26, assuming that is the verse you are referring to.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


imo, all Israel in that passage refers to the reunification of the houses of Israel, i.e. the house of Israel and the house of Judah back into one country. imo, Paul is saying that when those two houses come together, the times of the Gentiles pertaining to the church will be at its completion, and that the Jews will come to believe in Jesus at that time. That would be our generation, considering that Israel - in 1948 - reformed as "Israel".

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:31 am

It's not an insult RT; it's good advice to keep me humble that I'm passing onto you free of charge. Some people pay big bucks for this kind of advice...

I have dealt with delusional people. I still deal with two people that "we" (two separate groups of people) collectively think are delusional. We can see it, but they cannot. The funny thing is they are absolutely convinced of their own delusion despite our attempts to persuade them otherwise with plain facts. I am not talking about psychotic individuals either, but functional adults with, in one case, superior intelligence. Remember: denial is not just a river in Egypt, but if you're in denial - you will not see it, but you'll still be soaking wet.

So far, your study has been most disjointed, stringing together everything with 'sea.' Your conclusion so far also reminds me of the joke: 'The only exercise I get is jumping to conclusions!' Ergo, some time for meditation might be in order and further word study than just the Strongs' Concordance might get you down a little deeper into the various shades of meaning which we could apply. In the end, there may never be a single interpretaton.

Word to the wise.


Okay first you say it's not an insult, and then you go on to add further insult! Comparing me to delusional people?? Saying I am in denial??? Calling my conclusions a joke??? Sure sounds insulting to me, and if you did not intent to insult, I must inform you that is most certainly the way it has been taken by me as even more of an insult than your previous post. I am no fool, I know an insult when I feel one.

I can assure you that I have not come to these conclusions on a whim, and that I have studied for literally thousands of hours, I have at my disposal all the tools necessary for in depth study of God's word and I can assure you that I avail myself of them regularly.

Yes there are "various shades of meanings" to the words of scripture, a fact I am well aware of,and though I am no Greek or Hebrew scholar I believe it is in keeping with the context of scripture that the most obvious meaning of words are brought forth.

Look Mark, I come to this forum to debate my conclusions, I ask simple pointed questions and try my best to honestly and humbly share my views in a way that people can understand. I am not here to insult anyone or their position. I completely understand your feelings of frustration toward me, as I often feel exasperated myself but Insults IMO only cause me to view you with less credibility not more. You may express your frustrations in words that don't tear down, that is fine with me, but I will not accept insults and will call you and others out when I see them.



So can we please agree to refrain from personal attacks which only serve to divert attention from the debate?

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:45 am

MarkT wrote:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:My other question to you is- what do you believe happens to these "saints" at the end of the Millennium, and to those who are righteous that die during the millennium??

Asked and answered already:
MarkT wrote:Then their names are in the Book of Life and they join the Elect as the Sheep and enter into eternal Life with us. That is the point of the Millennium: for all of Israel to be saved.



Let me be more succinct in my question

I agree with you concerning the idea that all Israel will be saved but when you say that the sheep enter into eternal life- how exactly do you believe they enter into it?

That is the point of my question, if they are mortals on the earth during the Millennium and they are saved and written down in the book of life, how do they get from their mortal state to their eternal one? How do they "join" the elect?

I know what my answer is, but I want to know what your answer is.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:23 pm

It's not an insult RT; it's good advice to keep me humble that I'm passing onto you free of charge. Some people pay big bucks for this kind of advice...

I have dealt with delusional people. I still deal with two people that "we" (two separate groups of people) collectively think are delusional. We can see it, but they cannot. The funny thing is they are absolutely convinced of their own delusion despite our attempts to persuade them otherwise with plain facts. I am not talking about psychotic individuals either, but functional adults with, in one case, superior intelligence. Remember: denial is not just a river in Egypt, but if you're in denial - you will not see it, but you'll still be soaking wet.

So far, your study has been most disjointed, stringing together everything with 'sea.' Your conclusion so far also reminds me of the joke: 'The only exercise I get is jumping to conclusions!' Ergo, some time for meditation might be in order and further word study than just the Strongs' Concordance might get you down a little deeper into the various shades of meaning which we could apply. In the end, there may never be a single interpretaton.

Word to the wise.




:disappointed: IMO, its condescending and rude. I concur, RT.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby burien1 on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:33 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:MarkT, your implied insults toward members is totally inappropriate and cannot be tolerated on a Christian board. You need some time away to prayerfully consider the tone of your posts.
Psalm 119:105; Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby GodsStudent on Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:38 pm

Duh. Im sorry, I read the most recent posts. :oops:
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:05 pm

Pre-trib timeline


Rev. 20:10....And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, Where the Beast and the False prophet are...and sheall be torminted day and night for ever and ever.
11...And I saw a Great white Throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face...The Earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12...And I saw the dead, small and great, standbefore God; and the books were opened:
and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life:
and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works...

13...And the Sea Gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:
and they were judged every man according to their works....
14...And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.
15...And whosoever was NOT found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.....


There is the first Ressurrection when Jesus comes......
We rule and Reign on this earth with Jesus for a thousand years..after the 1000 years. The second ressurrection is for the sinners.....from the begenning of time....This is for the sinners.
The First Ressurrection if for the Saints .....That is the First Ressurrection then after the 1000 years is the Second Ressurrection.....This is the Great White Throne Judgment...

The Sea is all that died in the sea....from the beginning of time....the sinners.....And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every man according to their works..
And Death and Hell were cast into the lake of Fire..This is the Second death...
15...And whosoever was Not found written in the Book of Life...was cast into the Lake of Fire....
The Sea gives up their dead.......


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:19 pm

Hi Mrs. B

There is the first Ressurrection when Jesus comes......
We rule and Reign on this earth with Jesus for a thousand years..after the 1000 years. The second ressurrection is for the sinners.....from the begenning of time....This is for the sinners.
The First Ressurrection if for the Saints .....That is the First Ressurrection then after the 1000 years is the Second Ressurrection.....This is the Great White Throne Judgment...


Okay but what happens to the righteous mortals that live on earth during the millennium, they do not yet have their eternal glorified bodies, what happens to them at the end of the millennium? If there is only one resurrection to life as you say, then how do these mortals on the earth become immortals with eternal life?

I do believe that there is a first resurrection- a first kind of resurrection that is indeed a resurrection to life, there is also a second kind of resurrection to judgment for the wicked.

Perhaps I need to simplify this idea, let's say I am serving dinner, I have two menus, the first menu is only for adults, the second menu is only for children. I am not necessarily only serving dinner twice, once for adults and once for children. In fact there are several times throughout the year that I served only adults, but as it so happens the only time children came to dinner was at the end of the year, and with them there were also adults. That's how I see the two resurrections, as two different kinds with those being raised to life arriving in the heavenly tabernacle more than once, while it happens that those raised to judgment arrive last and only once.

Throughout the new testament there are two kinds of resurrection described, and as I have pointed out several times the passage in 1 Corinthians 15 that speaks of the order of the resurrection also shows that there is more than one resurrection of the righteous. The passage in Revelation 20 can be interpreted to mean a first and second variety of resurrection not necessarily a first and second as in ordinal value.

The Sea is all that died in the sea....from the beginning of time....the sinners.....And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were Judged every man according to their works..
And Death and Hell were cast into the lake of Fire..This is the Second death...
15...And whosoever was Not found written in the Book of Life...was cast into the Lake of Fire....
The Sea gives up their dead.......


so what you are saying is that the sea on earth, the physical body of water is a repository for the souls of the wicked dead? I mean no disrespect, but don't you think it odd that the ocean/sea would be a repository for souls, when in all of scripture there is nothing said of it being so? In fact the abode for the souls of the wicked is always referred to as Sheol in the OT and Hades in the NT never as the "sea". And again why would a physical place on earth be a repository for souls, when the other places referred to in the same passage reside in the spiritual dimension?

In the context of John's view of the heavenly tabernacle which is where he describes the white throne judgment taking place- before the throne of God which he writes about multiple times throughout the Revelation, the "sea" would be the "crystal sea".

And again I ask the question if the "sea" is an abode for the wicked souls, then why isn't it cast into the lake of fire to be destroyed along with death and Hades.


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:32 am

So many questions, and no one has an answer??

:abandoned:


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:29 am

Maybe because it's hard to refute what you have been saying. Still reading.

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Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:57 am

Pre-trib timeline......


I'll try to bring this so it is simple and not so complicated......

Sea....waters....peoples

Rev. 17:1b......I will shew unto thee the Judgment of the Great Whore....that Sitteth upon Many Waters...(notice waters)
2....With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication...

Waters? people.....the great whore is the false religions, starting from catholicatism.....the bible refers this to waters...or peoples....false religiouns all or anything false....anything believing that is not true or the Truth that Jesus taught.......false religion

Rev. 17:14....These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings:
and they that are with him (with Jesus) are Called and Chosen, and faithful....(the true Church, true believers)

15.....And he saith unto me...The Waters which thou sawest, where the whore siteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues.
16...And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.( this is the Judgment of the false religions of today which among is the Church so God allows Judgment to come on all religion.....true and false)

17.....For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His Will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, Until the words of God shall be fulfilled...
18...And the Women which thou sawest...Is that Great City...Which reigneth over the Kings of the Earth...
(Now do not go belistic with me.....but I believe we are Babylon that Great City....Babylon is Fallen, is Fallen that Great City)
Great Babylon is that Great City......V 15.....The waters which thou sawest where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues...16....And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire...

17...For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their Kingdom unto the Beast, Until the Words of God shall be Fulfilled:
18...And the woman which thou sawest is tHAT GREAT CITY, WHICH REIGNETH OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH...

rEV. 18:4...aND i HEARD ANOTHER vOICE FROM hEAVEN, sAYING....cOME oUT OF hER, mY pEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES...
5...fOR HER SINS HAVE REACHED UNTO HEAVEN, AND gOD HATH rEMEMBERED HER INIQUITIES....

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:22 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....

Jere. 51:5....For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the Lord of Hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy ONe of Israel...
6...Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence...
7....Babylon hath been a golden cup in the Lord"s hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; there fore the nations are made..
8...Babylon is Suddenly fallen and destroyed: Howl for her; take palm for her pain, if so be she may be healed....

Babylon begin in Genises......Nimrod built Babylon..it is the world systems...it begin in Genises and ends in Revelation....

Jeremiah 51:13......O thou that dwellest upon many WATERS, abundant in Treasures, thine End is come, and the measure of thy covetousness..

14...The Lord of hosts hath sworn by himself, saying, Surely I will fill thee with men as with caterpillerw; and they shall lift (Or Utter) up a shout against thee.

15...He hath made the earth by His Power, he hath established the world by His wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his Understanding.16...When He uttereth His Voice, there is a multitude of Waters in the Heavens: and he causeth the Vapours to ascend from the ends of the Earth: He maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the Wind out of His Treasures...


Notice Spoilers....Spoilers?
16....When he uttereth his voice, there is a Multitude of Waters in the Heavens; and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth: he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures...
17...Every man is Brutish ( or is more brutish than to know) by his Knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image; for his molten image is Falsehood, and there is no breath in them (No Spiritual life in them)


Mrs. B
Last edited by Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:43 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....


Jeremiah 51:45.....My People go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the Lord.....
46...And lest your heart faint, and ye fear for the rumour that shall be heard in the land; a rumour shallboth come one year, and after that another year shall come a rumour, and violence in the land, ruler against ruler.
47....Therefore, behold the days come, that I will do judgment upon the graven images of Babylon: and the whole land shall be confounded, and all her slain shall fall in the midst of her.
48...Then the heaven and the eath and all that is therein shall sing for Babylon: for THE SPOILERS.....shall come unto her from the North, saith the Lord...
49....As Babylon hath caused the slain of Israel to fall, so at Babylon shall fall the slain of all the earth...
50.....Ye that have escaped the sword go away, stand not still: remember the Lord afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind..

51...We are cofounded because we have heard reproach: shame hath covered our faces:
For STRANGERS are come into the sanctuaries of the Lords House...(the falling away from the truth)
52....Wherefore, behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will do Judgment upon her graven images: and through all her land the wounded shall groan...
53....Though Babylon should mount up to heaven, and through she should fortify the height of her strength, yet FROM ME SHALL SPOILERS come unto her, saith the Lord.....
54....A sound of a cry cometh from Babylon, and Great Destruction from the land of the Chaldeans:
55...Because the Lord hath SPOILED Babylon, and destroyed OUT of HER the GREAT VOICE; wher her waves do roar like Great WATERS, a Noise of their Voice is Uttered:
56....Because the SPOILER is come upon her, even upon Babylon, and her mighty men are taken, every one of their bows is broken: for the Lord God of Recompences shall surly requite...



Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:55 pm

Pre-trib Timeline.....


Jeremiah 51:57.....And I will make drunk her princes and her wise man, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpeual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the Lord of Hosts.
58....Thus saith the Lord of Hosts;

The Broad walls of Babylon shall be utterly broken, and her high gates shall be burned with fire; and the People shall Labour in Vain, and the Folk in the Fire and they shall be weary....

60....So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the Evil that should come upon Babylon, even all these words that are written against Babylon.....

Notice......this was fulfilled in our day....the towers or her high gates Jerm. 51:58b
then again....
Habakkuk 2:13....Behold, it is not of the Lord of Hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vaniaty.....
If you have not listened to the Jewish Rabbi that Jim Baker had on HIs Broadcast ....you sure need to...

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:11 pm

Hi Mrs. B,

Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, I do appreciate the effort you put in.

I guess I see a flaw in what you are saying though. You say the sea in Revelation 20 is the same as the "many waters" in Revelation 17 that represent the nations? So what you are claiming then is that the souls of the dead are given up by the nations? That the nations are repositories for departed souls? Again that makes no sense. The "sea" in revelation 20 gives up its dead along with death and Hades. These are the souls of the dead. It is not talking about the spiritually dead, but the actual souls of those who have died who stand before the heavenly throne of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


And again I ask the same question that eveyone seems to avoid answering- what happens to the righteous mortals who inhabit the earth during the millennium? It is fairly clear from scriptures that there will be righteous mortals who inhabit the Jerusalem on earth and that those Jews who inherit the land surrounding the city are mortals who will live and will die during the millennium. The Levites who will perform the services of the earthly temple will be mortals, they will be required to cleanse and purify themselves for the service of the temple, according to the law- just read Ezekiel 40 and following. They are not immortal. Therefore somehow they must become immortal in order to enter into the eternal kingdom where there is no longer any sin or death. How do you suppose that happens???

What happens to them when they die? How exactly do they "put on" immortality?

There is only one answer- they must be regenerated, they must be changed, by resurrection or by being caught up alive as in a rapture, perhaps it is both?? IMO the sea gives up those righteous souls who would have died during the millennium. Since scripture indicates that there will be those righteous people who will die a natural death during the millennium, and they must be raised to immortality and eternal life, then it is only logical to conclude that there must be a resurrection event that places them there. Whether or not some will be changed without undergoing death I do not know, though since scripture does set this precedent I wouldn't rule it out.

There really is no other explanation unless you want to make the claim that there will be no righteous mortals who occupy Jerusalem on earth during the millennium, or that those righteous mortals will not die during the millennium, which still leaves the problem of how they attain immortality.

So if there is a resurrection to life that occurs at the end of the millennium it pretty much says that interpreting the "first" resurrection as meaning that it is the first and only resurrection to life is wrong.

I am not standing on assumption only, as I have repeatedly shown that scripture as well supports that there is more than one resurrection to life:
1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after thatthose who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


Christ the first fruits is not only a reference to Jesus our Lord, but because this part of the passage is directly related to "all who will be made alive in Christ" it is also a reference to those who make up the body of Christ- who is the church of this present age. As I have stated before Christ is the first born from the dead- as anyone who has any knowledge at all of childbirth knows- typically the child's head is born first, Christ is the head- He has been delivered first, at some point in time the rest of the body will be delivered into the eternal kingdom. This makes total sense both scripturally and logically. Note that those who are Christ's at His coming are raise AFTER the Christ the first fruits, so therefore there will be those who are raised before Christ's return to earth.This pretty much rules out a post trib rapture scenario, though it does not rule out a mid or prewarth scenario on its own.

As far as I can tell there are no contradictions that I am aware of that would discredit this interpretation. If there are then please enlighten me, and I will happily concede.

RT

PS- Mrs. B I just want to let you know that I appreciate the contributions you make in your posts here at FP, I always look forward to hearing from you!
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:11 pm

Pre-trib timeline....

RT.......

When Jesus comes back........only the Dead in Christ will be raised from the dead......
This is the First Ressurection......
all peoples from Adam to Jesus who by Faith looked forward to the Promise Seed Jesus will be raised from the Dead at the First Ressurrection.......
Even those who died in the sea......those that were looking for the comming promise seed, Jesus.
They will be raised from the sea......but everyone that lived from Adam who died in their sins will stay dead until the Second Resserrection......or the end of this world as we know it.....The Great White Throne Judgment
They will face that judgment....

When Jesus comes back......there will be a Seventh Thousand years.......
During this Seventh Sabbath thousand years.......it is like the sabbath rest.
The Earth will be changed.....and all born again believers will rule and Reign on this earth With Jesus as King....
We will be in our New Bodies........Our Bodies will be like His......
He could appear and disappear......We will have New Bodies and we will rule and reign on this Earth for a thousand years...or a Sabbath seventhousandth years...

We are now facing the beginning of the 7000 years since Adam......6000 years and now the 1000 years when Jesus willl rule and reign on this earth......It is the Sabbath Reign
The Devil will be chaigned....or bound......and for a thousand years the Earth will be like it should have been before Adam sin......The earth is going to shift.......Babylan will be broken in to three parts....It will be partly day and partly night....
Romans 8:16....The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God
if children, then heirs; heris of God, and Joint-heirs with Christ; If so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together...
18...For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory which shall be Revealed in us....
19...For The Earnest Exxpectation of the Creature waiteth for the Manifestation of the Sons of God...
20...For the Creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, But by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21...Because the Creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the Glorious Liberty of the Childen of God...
22.....And we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23....And not only they, but ourselves also which have the firstfruits groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body....
24...For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25....But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it...
26....Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groansings which cannot be uttered.
27...And He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, Because he maketh Intercession for the saints according to the will of God.....

We will rule and Reign with Jesus on this New made over earth for a thousand years.....then the second ressurrection and the Judgment....


MRS, B

This is why we pray in the Spirit....making grownings not understood by the natural mind but by the Mind of Christ...
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:28 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....

Jeremiah 51:9.....We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed:
forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skiess..

10...The Lord hath brought forth our righteousness:
Come, and let us declare in Zion the Work of the Lord our God..

11...Make Bright sure the arrows; gather the shields:
the Lord hath raised up The Spirit OF THE KINGS OF THE MEDES;
for his device is Against Babylon, to destroy it;
because it is the vengeance of the Lord,
the vengeance of His Temple.

28.....Prepare against her the nations withTHE KINGS OF THE MEDES,
the captains thereof and all the rulers thereof, and all the land of his dominion.

29...And the land shall tremble and sorrow:
for Every Purpose of the Lord shall be performed against Babylon,
to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant...

30...The Mighty men of Babylon have forbarne to fight, they have remained in their holds:
their mighty hath failed; they became as women:
they have burned her dwellingplaces; her bars are broken.
31...One post shall run to meet another, and one messenger to meet another, to shew the king of Babylon that his city is taken at one end....
33...For thus saith the Lord of Hosts, The God of Israel;
The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her:yet a little while and the time of her harvesh shall come....


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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:43 pm

So Mrs. B, am I to understand that you believe that there will be no righteous mortals that will live on earth during the Millennium?

I do not deny that we will reign with Christ during the millennium in our new perfected and eternal bodies, will will reign over the earth with Him. But scripture is pretty clear that the nation of Israel (mortals) will share in that reign as well, they will have charge over Jerusalem and its temple, which is an actual literal temple. Mortal beings who are considered saints to God will inhabit the city on earth and though they will live longer lives than man does now, they will indeed be mortal and many will die during that time.

Isaiah 59:20-21
20 “A Redeemer will come to Zion,
And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob,” declares the Lord.
21 “As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the Lord, “from now and forever.”


This passage is speaking about the descendants of Israel (Jacob) who will be redeemed when the Lord returns, note the emphasis on offspring, offspring would denote bodies that can produce progeny- children AKA mortals.

Ezekiel 43:7
7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,


Ezekiel 43:18-20
18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God, ‘These are the statutes for the altar on the day it is built, to offer burnt offerings on it and to sprinkle blood on it.
19 ‘You shall give to the Levitical priests who are from the offspring of Zadok, who draw near to Me to minister to Me,’ declares the Lord God, ‘a young bull for a sin offering.
20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on its four horns and on the four corners of the ledge and on the border round about; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it.

Ezekiel 44:19-23
19 “When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers; then they shall put on other garments so that they will not transmit holiness to the people with their garments.
20 “Also they shall not shave their heads, yet they shall not let their locks grow long; they shall only trim the hair of their heads.
21 “Nor shall any of the priests drink wine when they enter the inner court.
22 “And they shall not marry a widow or a divorced woman but shall take virgins from the offspring of the house of Israel, or a widow who is the widow of a priest.
23 “Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.


These passages describe the Millennial temple, offerings are necessary for mortals, not for those already in regenerated bodies? Marriage, widows, trimming of hair, these are all things that imply mortality.



When Jesus comes back........only the Dead in Christ will be raised from the dead......
This is the First Ressurection......
all peoples from Adam to Jesus who by Faith looked forward to the Promise Seed Jesus will be raised from the Dead at the First Ressurrection.......
Even those who died in the sea......those that were looking for the comming promise seed, Jesus.
They will be raised from the sea......but everyone that lived from Adam who died in their sins will stay dead until the Second Resserrection......or the end of this world as we know it.....The Great White Throne Judgment
They will face that judgment....


I am a bit confused by this statement, are you saying that the sea gives up its dead when Jesus returns? Wouldn't this be before the 1000 year reign? The passage that says that the sea gives up its dead is shown to happen after the 1000 year reign. I am not sure what your point is, perhaps you can clarify. It seems to me that you are saying that where one dies is where their soul resides until they are raised? So the righteous who die at sea, their souls reside in the water of the sea awaiting their resurrection? Don't righteous souls abide in paradise awaiting their resurrection? One could make a case that some may abide in Abraham's bosom, is that in the sea? Is it also true then that if someone dies while mountain climbing that their soul would reside there awaiting their resurrection? You must see that this cannot be the meaning of the passage, it just isn't the case that souls reside in the place where they die, scripture never claims this. Yes bodies may be raised from the sea, and the mountains and wherever they are buried, but we are not talking about bodies, the passage is not talking about the physical body, but rather the souls of the dead.

John explains this here:

Revelation 20:4-5
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.


He equates the "souls" as being the "dead".. He saw the souls who died as martyrs during the tribulation come to life, the rest of the dead (souls) do not come to life until the 1000 years are over. So those dead who are given up by the sea and death and hades are souls. IMO the rest of the dead does include those who from the time of Adam died in their sins just as you say, but I also believe that it includes the righteous souls who will have died during the millennium whose souls are given up by the (crystal) sea.

Revelation 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.


These tribulation martyrs are blessed because they have a part in the first resurrection ,the first in rank, the chief kind of resurrection, the better resurrection if you will, the word "first" can be defined in the Greek as meaning this. Note they have a "part" in this kind of resurrection, it doesn't say that they are the only ones, but that they have a part, they are a part of the whole, a portion, they share in this experience, and blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the better resurrection, the chief and primary one- that leads to life. The second death has no power over them. Note the scripture doesn't say that the second resurrection has no power over them but rather that the second death doesn't. Those who have a part in the chief resurrection will not be subject to the second death, and what is the second death?

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


But what of those whose names are found in the book of life? Are there any? We aren't told, all we know is that those whose aren't written experience the second death.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:21 pm

Pre-trib timeline.......

I'm not sure I understand your question......

During the 1000 years, or millimum it is the Sabbath Rest....

All believers dead and alive will arise at the First Ressurrection....when Jesus Comes.
We will all be caught up to meet Him in the Air.......

I Thes 4:16....For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a Shout with the Voice of the Archangel, and with theTrump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17.....Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the Air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord......

Now....
Zech. 14:1....Behold the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee...
2.....For I will gather ALL Nations against Jerusalem to Battle; and the city shall be taken and the houses rifled, and the women ravished, and half of the city shall go foth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city...
3...Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of Battle....

read all the chapter...
16...And it shall come to pass, that Every One that is left of all the NATIONS WHICH come against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King the Lord of Hosts, and to Keep the Feast of Tabernacles....
17....And it shall be that whoso will not come up of all the Families of the Earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King the Lord of HOsts, even upon them shall be NO RAIN...

Now this is the 1000 year Reign....
We will rule and Reign with Jesus on this Earth for a 1000 years.....

In Zech 13:9.....And I will bring the thrid part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as Gold is Tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is My God.....



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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:47 pm

Pre-trib timeline......

Isaiah 2:1.....The word that Isaiah the son of amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem...

2...And it shall come to pass In the Last days, that the Mountin of the Lord's house shall be Established in the Top of the Mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it...
3...And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the Mountain of the Lord, to the House of the god of Jacob; and He will Teach us of His Ways, and we will walk in his Paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the Law, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem...
4...And He shall Judge among the Nations, and shall Rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowhhares, and their speas into pruninghooks:
Nation shall not lift up sword against Nation, neither shall they learn War any More...
5...O House of Jacob, come ye and let us Walk in the Light of the Lord.
6...Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the House of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and dthey please themselves in the children of strangers....

Is. 4:2....In that day shall the branch of the Lord be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel..
3...And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he tht remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be Called Holy, Even Every one that is Written among the Living in Jerusalem...

You see God has a Plan......and for a thousand years the devil will be bound.....the curse will be removed.....The Whole Earth shall be filled with the Knowledge of the Glory ofthe Lord as the Waters cover the earth........During this thousand years if a man die at hundred it will be like a child....
Read Isa. 11: 6...The wold also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling togethr , and a little child shall leald them..
7..And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young one shall lie down togethr; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8..And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp and the weaned child shalll put his head on the cockatrice den..

9..They shall not Hurt nor Destroy in ALL MY Holy Mountain: for the earth shall be full of the Knowledge of the Lord, as the Waters cover the Sea....
For a thousand years it will be like it should have been at the beginning....The Whole Earth will be filled with the Glory of the Lord.......

For a Thousand years we will rule and reign with Jesus.....and the curse will be removed....and people will live to ripe old age.....there will be no war....
we will Rule and Reign with a rod of Iron.....
This is the Manifestation of the sons of God...
Rom. 8:For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the Glory which shall be Revealed in us...19...For the Earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.....Read all of Romans 8
For a Thousand yeas we will live on this eart with Jesus as King....Jerusalem wil be the Capital of the World.....

Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 6:46 am

Good morning Mrs.B

During the 1000 years, or millimum it is the Sabbath Rest....


I completely agree

All believers dead and alive will arise at the First Ressurrection....when Jesus Comes.
We will all be caught up to meet Him in the Air.......


I agree that at some point those dead in Christ and those alive will be caught up to eternal life with Christ, I disagree as to when this happens.

Mrs. B I totally agree with you concerning the millennium,and am very well acquainted with the passages that you posted in fact I read through many of them just this morning again. I do not necessarily agree though that we, those who will have been resurrected and caught up will "Live" on the earth. We will reign over it yes indeed, with Christ. We may have access to it, but we will not be the ones living in Jerusalem on earth. It will be Israel that will occupy earthly Jerusalem, while we will dwell in the heavenly tabernacle that resides directly above the earthly. There are many passages throughout scripture that describe heaven as the seat of God's throne while the earth is the footstool of His throne. Those who are resurrected IMO will reside beside His throne in heaven, while those who remain as mortals will reside beside the footstool of His throne on earth.

Matthew 5:34-35
34 “But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.



In that earthly city, the Israelites will live and serve in the earthly temple, they will live as mortal beings, as you have pointed out to ripe old ages, they will age, they will marry, they will have children throughout the millennium and they will also die. They are considered God's people, He will put His Spirit within them, thus they will be considered as righteous. These are not resurrected people, they do not inhabit glorified bodies while they live on earth throughout the millennium.

So when these righteous people who live as mortals die during the millennium, what happens to their souls? When the end of the Millennium comes and the earth is destroyed and the dead are raised, what happens to the righteous people who lived as mortals on the earth during the millennium? How do they inherit the new eternal earth and heavens, how do they become part of New Jerusalem?

In order for them to inherit eternal life- they must be resurrected into their glorified state, therefore there has to be a resurrection of the righteous that occurs after the millennium.

I don't know how I can say it more clearly so that you can understand.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:14 am

There are many passages throughout scripture that describe heaven as the seat of God's throne while the earth is the footstool of His throne. Those who are resurrected IMO will reside beside His throne in heaven, while those who remain as mortals will reside beside the footstool of His throne on earth.


I see this throne/footstool as analogy or metaphor. It's a figure of speech that expresses the unfamiliar in terms of the familiar. There are scriptures that support neither "heaven" nor "earth" nor any tangible edifice as being able to contain God.

1Ki_8:27 "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You, how much less this house which I have built!

2Ch_2:6 "But who is able to build a house for Him, for the heavens and the highest heavens cannot contain Him? So who am I, that I should build a house for Him, except to burn incense before Him?

2Ch_6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with mankind on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.

With that in mind, should we perceive the earth as a literal footstool in our interpretation of various scriptures pertaining to eschatology and in particular in terms of up and down?

just thinking....far too late for me to participate in this thread, but I did want to ask this question for consideration.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:44 pm

With that in mind, should we perceive the earth as a literal footstool in our interpretation of various scriptures pertaining to eschatology and in particular in terms of up and down?


Does God sit on a literal throne? Is His throne just a metaphor? When John is caught up to heaven and sees the throne of God, is it just an allagory or a literal throne? Did Moses see the literal throne of God on the mountain? Did Ezekiel see it as well or is it just all a metaphor. When Jesus said He sat on His father's throne, was it just a metaphor? The passages throughout the new testament that say that Jesus sat down on His throne in heaven, seated next to the Father????

I think we should consider that the earth acts as a footstool of God's throne because that is the very perception that God has given us in His word. However we should not think that God is restricted to only the place of His heavenly throne, or His earthly footstool. I think that is more of the intent behind the passages you quoted.Which are by the way three passages that describe the same event. However God chose to put the place of the footstool of His throne in the temple at Jerusalem, and He chose the place in heaven for the seat of His throne, but He is not confined to act only within these parameters. God and His power cannot be "housed" in any one place, but He can and has/does choose a place from which to act on earth and in Heaven. Man cannot contain God, but God can restrict Himself.

Acts 7:46-50
46 “David found favor in God’s sight, and asked that he might find a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.
47 “But it was Solomon who built a house for Him.
48 “However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says:
49 ‘Heaven is My throne,
And earth is the footstool of My feet;
What kind of house will you build for Me?’ says the Lord,
‘Or what place is there for My repose?
50 ‘Was it not My hand which made all these things?’


It is clear from scripture that the Glory pf the Lord filled the temple in Jerusalem, the footstool was the ark of the covenant. If it is a metaphor it was one meant to convey the idea that God chooses the places from where He acts, from the temple in Jerusalem on earth, and from the seat of His throne in heaven, that is the witness of the scriptures

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:53 pm

Hi RT,

The throne image may simply represent the King or Royalty nature of God. Luke 2 mentions the footstool this way:

Luke 20:43 ....until I place Your enemies as Your footstool."

Some commentaries mention that "Conquerors often placed their feet on the necks of the victims." I see some similarity in the image of God as the King/Conqueror on the throne with the footstool image.

Sorry for the interruption on the topic. The throne/footstool would make an interesting study I think. :grin:
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