Pre-trib timeline

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:27 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....


Stephen preached......

Acts 7:48......Howbeit the most High Dwelleh NOT in TEMPLES made with hands; as saith the prophet..

49....Heaven is My Throne, and Earth is My Footstool:
What House will ye Build Me? saith the Lord:
or what is the place of my Rest?

50...Hath my hand made all these things?

This got Stephen Stoned....
51....YE Stiffnecked and Uncircumcised in heart and ears, Ye do Always Resist the HOLY GHOST:
as your fathers did....so do ye.

52....Which of the Prophets have not your Fathers Persecuted?
and they have slain them which shewed before OF THE COMING OF THE JUST ONE:
OF WHOM YE HAVE BEEN NOW THE BETRAYERS AND MURDERS:

53...Who have received the law by the Disposition of
Angels, and have not Kept It....


Jesus came out of the Tribe of Juda..........and they crucified Him...

But He Jesus has assended into Heaven, and is Now seated at the Right Hand of God....making intercession for us the Born Again Believers.......
The Only Holy Jew is a Born Again Jew.....Born of the Holy Spirit...
Read Ephesians 2:11....Wherefore remember....that ye being in time past Gentiles...in the Flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by That which is Called The Circumcision in the Flesh made by hands;

12....That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and Strangers from THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, Having NO Hope, and without
God in the World:

13...BUT NOW...in Christ Jesus Ye who sosmetimes were far off...are made nigh by The Blood of Christ....

14....For He is Our Peace, Who hath MADE BOTH ONE....and hath broken down the middle wall of Partition between us;
(You See Jesus has made both One....Jew and Gentile)
15....Having Abolished in His Flesh the Enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in HIMSELF of TWAIN One New Man, so making peace;
16....And that he might RECONCILE BOTH unto God in ONE Body by the Cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17...And came and preached peace to you (Gentile) which were afar off, and to them (the Jew) that were nigh.
18...For through HIM Jesus We both have Access....By ONE Spirit unto the Father.....

He has made both one by the Holy Spirit that dwell in us....One Body not Two....
19...Now therefore Ye are no more strangers and foreigners, BUT fellowcitizens with the Saints, and of the House hold of God;
20...And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Jesus Christ Himself being the Chief Corner Stone;

21...In Whom All the Building fitly framed together groweth unto AN HOLY TEMPLE IN THE LORD.....

Jesus has made us both one...Jew and Gentile in the Lord.....we are the body of Christ....with One Spirit
both are one
and until you see this you will never understand the endtimes.......The Church (Jew and Gentile are one) is God's Holy People...Jesus bought us with His Blood on the Cross....We have a New Blood Covenant....Jesus bought us , and made us one...by One Spirit...One Body...
And Eph.3:1..For this cause I Paul the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
3...How that by Revelation He made known unto me The Mystery: (as I wrote afore in few words,4: Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand My Knowledge in the Mystery of Christ) 5..Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is Now Revealed Unto His Holy Apostles and Prophets by the Spirit...
6..That the Gentiles should be Fellowheirs, and of the Same Body, as Partakers of His Promise in Christ by the Gospel

Mrs. B...still a mistery to many
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:07 am

Jesus has made us both one...Jew and Gentile in the Lord.....we are the body of Christ....with One Spirit
both are one
and until you see this you will never understand the endtimes.......The Church (Jew and Gentile are one) is God's Holy People...Jesus bought us with His Blood on the Cross....We have a New Blood Covenant....Jesus bought us , and made us one...by One Spirit...One Body...


Yes Mrs. B- I agree with you, but the book of Ezekiel makes it clear that the law will be in practice during the Millennium, unless you are among those who discount Ezekiel's visions as merely what should or could have been and not what will be. Which IMO is only one's means to make sense of something they cannot understand. Just because it is difficult to reconcile the practice of the law with the New Covenant- doesn't mean that it won't happen. Unless you see this you will never understand end times.

:backtotopic:
Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Good morning Mrs.B

During the 1000 years, or millimum it is the Sabbath Rest....


I completely agree

All believers dead and alive will arise at the First Ressurrection....when Jesus Comes.
We will all be caught up to meet Him in the Air.......


I agree that at some point those dead in Christ and those alive will be caught up to eternal life with Christ, I disagree as to when this happens.

Mrs. B I totally agree with you concerning the millennium,and am very well acquainted with the passages that you posted in fact I read through many of them just this morning again. I do not necessarily agree though that we, those who will have been resurrected and caught up will "Live" on the earth. We will reign over it yes indeed, with Christ. We may have access to it, but we will not be the ones living in Jerusalem on earth. It will be Israel that will occupy earthly Jerusalem, while we will dwell in the heavenly tabernacle that resides directly above the earthly. There are many passages throughout scripture that describe heaven as the seat of God's throne while the earth is the footstool of His throne. Those who are resurrected IMO will reside beside His throne in heaven, while those who remain as mortals will reside beside the footstool of His throne on earth.

Matthew 5:34-35
34 “But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.



In that earthly city, the Israelites will live and serve in the earthly temple, they will live as mortal beings, as you have pointed out to ripe old ages, they will age, they will marry, they will have children throughout the millennium and they will also die. They are considered God's people, He will put His Spirit within them, thus they will be considered as righteous. These are not resurrected people, they do not inhabit glorified bodies while they live on earth throughout the millennium.

So when these righteous people who live as mortals die during the millennium, what happens to their souls? When the end of the Millennium comes and the earth is destroyed and the dead are raised, what happens to the righteous people who lived as mortals on the earth during the millennium? How do they inherit the new eternal earth and heavens, how do they become part of New Jerusalem?

In order for them to inherit eternal life- they must be resurrected into their glorified state, therefore there has to be a resurrection of the righteous that occurs after the millennium.

I don't know how I can say it more clearly so that you can understand.

RT


:answerthequestion:

Still looking for an answer to this question........

I have given my answer- repeatedly, but what is yours?


RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:14 pm

Pre-trib timeline......


Yes Mrs. B- I agree with you, but the book of Ezekiel makes it clear that the law will be in practice during the Millennium, unless you are among those who discount Ezekiel's visions as merely what should or could have been and not what will be. Which IMO is only one's means to make sense of something they cannot understand. Just because it is difficult to reconcile the practice of the law with the New Covenant- doesn't mean that it won't happen. Unless you see this you will never understand end times.

I believe the Saints will rule and reign with Jesus on this earth.....

At His Appearing......we will be changed, in a moment, in the twinkle of the eye....

We will be caught up in the air.......

I believe we will immeriately have our NEW Bodies.........Bodies like Jesus.....Jesus could eat...He could appear
.....He assended into Heaven and Returned.....He was in His New Ressurrection Body......So when He comes at the First Ressurrection.....We will be changed immediately into our New Bodies......and Just Like Jesus we to will be able to assend and return.......
Philip was caught from the eunuch in Acts 8:39b...The
Spirit of the Lord Caught away Philip that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing......
The Holy Spirit will catch us upl at tehfirst ressurrection when Jesus appears....
I believe we will be changed into our New Heavaenly Body......

Paul writes......For the earnest expectation of the creature waith FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.....
You see......When God created man....He created him in his image.......that is why Jesus said If you have seen me you have seen the Father....My Father and I Are One......When God created the first Adam.....He was created in the image of God......but when Adam sin....death entered into the Whole World...all of God's Creation was effected by the sin of Adam....The Curse came upon the earth......Jesus has Redeemed us from the Curse of the LAW....He Jesus became a curse for us.....Now death is reversed.....
We now are born again by the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent back to earth, and as he is seated at the right hand of the Father in Heaven.....Making intercession for us....When we Ask the Father in His Name Jesus is our intercession....He interceeds for us the born of God belivers....

But....Daniel 9:27....And he Jesus shall confirm The Covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week (2300 days) he shall cause the Sacrifice (Jesus Blood Sacrifice and the oblation...oblation is intercession....calling on Jesus name...He Jesus will cause it to cease to cease.....
Why? For the overspreading of Abominatios...He Jesus shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate...

When Jesus comes back to earth....we will rule and reign with Him.....we will have our New Bodies...

at the same time...there will be those that servive out of every Nation and they will Repopulate the Earth until the 1000 years are fulfilled...Then the Devil who is bound will be loosed for a season.....and at the end man will have a choice....and some will reject Jesus.....then they will be destroyed by the word of His Mouth...

Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:51 pm

Pre-trib timeline.........


Right Now.....I believe Gog and Maygog are at the end of the thousand years....

Rev. 5:10....And hast made us unto our God Kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth.....
I say in Our New Bodies......we will minister to those that servive and repopulate the earth...
The Curse if Removed......In Gen. the earth was cursed...the ground....was cursed....man was cursed..

At the beginning everthing was blessed....the ground gave forth it fruit....the earth gave forth a mist...
there was no rain....but the plants grew and gave forth their fruit....Adam and Eve did not have to till the ground...everything worked for them, not against them, And God planted them a garden....

I'm a little tired...

So in this 1000 year reign, the curse is removed, the devil is bound, and men will again repopulate the earth...and we that are born again, raised from the dead, in our new bodies will rule and reilgn on this earth with Jesus for a thousand years....
The Earth will shift....Isaiah 12:13..Therefore I will shake the Heavens, and the Earth shall be moved out of her place,
in the WRATH of the Lord of Hosts, and in the day of His FIERCE ANGER....
Matt. 24:29.....IMMERIATELY after the tribulation of those days...shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the Powers of the Heavens shall be shaken:
30....And then Shall Appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven:
31....And He shall send His angel's with a Great Sound of a Trumpet....and they shall gather together His Elect from the Four Winds, from one end of Heaven to the other....
Notice Great Sound of a Trumpet....I Corrin. 16:52...In a moment in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED....

Mrs. B



They ask Jesus what is the most important commandment?
Jesus said.....Love the Lord Thy God with all thine heart and all thy soul,
and Love they Neighbor as thyself this is the fulfillment of all the Law and the Prophets.....
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:54 pm

Thanks for your reply Mrs.B, though I am a bit confused by it, sorry, I guess I am just having a hard time deciphering what it is exactly you believe. Perhaps I can help by just asking you some simple questions, and you could reply with short simple answers, so I can get it into my thick head.

Okay so let's start here

Do you believe that righteous mortals will inhabit any part of the millennial kingdom?

I am talking flesh and blood people, not those who will have received their glorified bodies.

Yes or no?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Pre-trib timeline......


Thank you for making it simplel.....

YES.....
Zech 14:12.....And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem...
Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth...
13...And it shall come to pass in that day thata great
tumult from the Lord shall be among them;
14. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem...And the wealth of all the heathen round aboutshall be gathered together, gold and silver, and apparel, in great abundance...15...And so shall be the plague of the horse,of the mule, of the camel, and of the ***, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague......


Now here is your answer.
16....And it shall come to pass, THAT EVERY ONE THAT IS LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS WHICH CAME AGAINST JERUSALEM SHALL EVEN GO UP FROM YEAR TO YEAR TO WORSHIP THE KING, THE LORD OF HOSTS, AND TO KEEP THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES.....
................EVERY ONE THAT IS LEFT OF ALL THE NATIONS WHICH CAME AGAINST JERUSALEM.........THESE SERVIVE.

and they shall repopulate the earth.....and Jesus will rulel from Jerusalem.....and we will rule and reign with Him.....


Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:19 pm

Pre-trib timeline....

Zech 14:1....Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee...

Now notice....I love this
2.....For I will gather All Nations Against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifleld, and the women ravished: and half ot the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city..
3....Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle....

5b.....And the Lord My God shall come, and all the SAINTS with thee...
6...And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7...BUT it shall come to pass in that at evening time it shall be light.....
8...And it shall be in that day, that Living Waters shall go out from Jerusalelm; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be
9...And the Lord shall be King over ALL THE EARTH...AND HIS NAME ONE......
11...And men shall dwell in it....and there shall be NO More Utter Destruction: But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabaited....

Satan will be bound and the curse will be removed....


Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:55 pm

1.So that I am understanding your answer correctly, you are saying that there will be those mortals who are left of the nations that remain on earth, whose descendants will rebel and will end up being judged by God. Is that correct?

2.Then you do not believe that there will be those who inhabit Jerusalem on earth that are considered righteous and are also mortals (without glorified bodies). Is that correct?

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:18 pm

Pre-trib timeline.....


Do you not realize.....that the Kingdom of God will be on this earth for 1000 years......and Jesus will rule on this earth for a thousand years.......There will be the manifested sons of God....who will rule and reign with Him .....and who will they rule over??
but the people who survive the end....out of every nation...and they will populate the earth again....
If a man die at 1000 years old......it will be like a child......the people will have long life like it was before the flood....
If you do not go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabaernacles......it will not rain in that country......that will be a judgment....the curse will be removed.....Look at Gen.....what was it like before sin......That is what it will be like during the millium.....animals will be a peace with man......The earth will be changed....the sun and moon will be changed.....The devil is bound and the curse is removed......Because Jesus Paid our sin debt....Adam sin brought the curse....Jesus bought us back, by becoming a curse for us...He has Redeemed us.....and We will live on this earth with Him......with those that servive judgment of the end.......

The whole Earth will be full of the Knowledge, of the Glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the earth......
The Earth will be beautiful.....it will be in harmony with God.....


Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mrs. B on Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:27 pm

Pre-trib timeline......

At the end of the Sabbath 1000 years......The devil will be loose and go out into the earth.....and man will choose..
The devil is loose for a season.....and
Rev. 20:7....And when the thousand years are expired....Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8...And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quaarters of the earth, God and Mgog, to gther them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea....
9....Ankd they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the Saints, aboooout, and the Beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD Out of Heaven and devoured them..
10...And the devil that deceived them was Cast Into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the Beast and the False prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....
11..And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him that sat on it , from whose face The Earth and The Heaven Fled Away; and there was found no place for them....
Then the Great White Throne Judgment.......

Mrs. B
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:34 pm

Dear Mrs. B. while I appreciate that you know your scripture, I would ask that you be more specific in answering my questions plainly, trust me I am well acquainted with all that you are saying, but since you don't want to directly answer my questions I am going to assume from your response that you do not believe that there will be righteous mortals on earth that reside in Jerusalem during the millennium. If I am wrong you have my permission to correct me.
(sorry it's a long post)
Let me first answer your questions:

Do you not realize.....that the Kingdom of God will be on this earth for 1000 years......and Jesus will rule on this earth for a thousand years.......There will be the manifested sons of God....who will rule and reign with Him .....and who will they rule over??


Yes I have repeatedly stated that I agree that Jesus will rule over the earth for 1000 years, thus the earth will be part of His kingdom. Jesus will reign and we will share in that reign, and yes we will rule over those of the nations who survive the tribulation. So we agree.

but the people who survive the end....out of every nation...and they will populate the earth again....

Yes they will repopulate the earth-- we agree here too.

If a man die at 1000 years old......it will be like a child......the people will have long life like it was before the flood....

well here you misspoke I believe, you incorrectly referenced Isaiah saying that the youth would live to 1000 years, while the passage actually says 100 years.
Isaiah 65:20-23
20 “no longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days,
Or an old man who does not live out his days;
For the youth will die at the age of one hundred
And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred
Will be thought accursed.
21 “They will build houses and inhabit them;
They will also plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 “They will not build and another inhabit,
They will not plant and another eat;
For as the lifetime of a tree, so will be the days of My people,
And My chosen ones will wear out the work of their hands.
23 “They will not labor in vain,
Or bear children for calamity;
For they are the offspring of those blessed by the Lord,
And their descendants with them.


There is a lot to glean from this passage, first of all this passage is speaking about those who will live in Jerusalem on earth during the millennial reign, these are not those from the gentile nations who survive, but those from the nation of Israel.

You will note several things first of all there are infants and old men who live there, old men will live out their days. The one who dies at the age of 100 will be thought of as young. While the one who dies before reaching 100 will be thought of as accursed. They build, they plant, they eat, they live long lives, they labor, they bear children, they have descendants.

All of these things show that these living within earthly Jerusalem will in fact be mortal. They are born, they age grow old live out their days and die. Though they live exceptionally long lives, they do also die, they do not posses immortal bodies.

Ezekiel 43 and following describe the millennial temple service that will be performed by the priesthood, not by those who have been resurrected and/or changed, but by mortal men. I would encourage you to read the last several chapters of Ezekiel, but I will quote some of it here to show my point.

Ezekiel 44:9-31
9 ‘Thus says the Lord God, “No foreigner uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, of all the foreigners who are among the sons of Israel, shall enter My sanctuary.
10 “But the Levites who went far from Me when Israel went astray, who went astray from Me after their idols, shall bear the punishment for their iniquity.
11 “Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having oversight at the gates of the house and ministering in the house; they shall slaughter the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister to them.
12 “Because they ministered to them before their idols and became a stumbling block of iniquity to the house of Israel, therefore I have sworn against them,” declares the Lord God, “that they shall bear the punishment for their iniquity.
13 “And they shall not come near to Me to serve as a priest to Me, nor come near to any of My holy things, to the things that are most holy; but they will bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed.
14 “Yet I will appoint them to keep charge of the house, of all its service and of all that shall be done in it.
15 “But the Levitical priests, the sons of Zadok, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood,” declares the Lord God.
16 “They shall enter My sanctuary; they shall come near to My table to minister to Me and keep My charge.
17 “It shall be that when they enter at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and wool shall not be on them while they are ministering in the gates of the inner court and in the house.
18 “Linen turbans shall be on their heads and linen undergarments shall be on their loins; they shall not gird themselves with anything which makes them sweat.
19 “When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers; then they shall put on other garments so that they will not transmit holiness to the people with their garments.
20 “Also they shall not shave their heads, yet they shall not let their locks grow long; they shall only trim the hair of their heads.
21 “Nor shall any of the priests drink wine when they enter the inner court.
22 “And they shall not marry a widow or a divorced woman but shall take virgins from the offspring of the house of Israel, or a widow who is the widow of a priest.
23 “Moreover, they shall teach My people the difference between the holy and the profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 “In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances. They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths.
25 “They shall not go to a dead person to defile themselves; however, for father, for mother, for son, for daughter, for brother, or for a sister who has not had a husband, they may defile themselves.
26 “After he is cleansed, seven days shall elapse for him.
27 “On the day that he goes into the sanctuary, into the inner court to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering,” declares the Lord God.
28 “And it shall be with regard to an inheritance for them, that I am their inheritance; and you shall give them no possession in Israel—I am their possession.
29 “They shall eat the grain offering, the sin offering and the guilt offering; and every devoted thing in Israel shall be theirs.
30 “The first of all the first fruits of every kind and every contribution of every kind, from all your contributions, shall be for the priests; you shall also give to the priest the first of your dough to cause a blessing to rest on your house.
31 “The priests shall not eat any bird or beast that has died a natural death or has been torn to pieces.


First of all you see that the Levites though they have charge over the house (temple) will not be allowed to come near to the Lord to serve Him. This is the punishment for having been unfaithful. The sons of Zadok however will come near to the Lord. They are instructed not to wear garments that make them sweat. They have to remove their garments before appearing before the people so they won't transmit holiness to them etc... note how they are told that they cannot marry a widow or divorced woman, this shows that they get married, they must marry virgin daughters of the nation of Israel, or the widow of a priest. Do immortal people marry???....Also verse 25 again shows that there will be those who die, the priests are instructed not to defile themselves except for a direct family member. It also shows that they can become defiled and must then purify themselves when they do. Is that true for immortal beings?

Perhaps you are under the impression that these who inhabit Jerusalem and serve in the Millennial temple will also be deceived at the end of the 1000 years.
Ezekiel 39:25-29
25 Therefore thus says the Lord God, “Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name.
26 “They will forget their disgrace and all their treachery which they perpetrated against Me, when they live securely on their own land with no one to make them afraid.
27 “When I bring them back from the peoples and gather them from the lands of their enemies, then I shall be sanctified through them in the sight of the many nations.
28 “Then they will know that I am the Lord their God because I made them go into exile among the nations, and then gathered them again to their own land; and I will leave none of them there any longer.
29 “I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,” declares the Lord God.


Jeremiah 33:7-9
7 ‘I will restore the fortunes of Judah and the fortunes of Israel and will rebuild them as they were at first.
8 ‘I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.
9 ‘It will be to Me a name of joy, praise and glory before all the nations of the earth which will hear of all the good that I do for them, and they will fear and tremble because of all the good and all the peace that I make for it.’


Jeremiah 30:8-11
8 ‘It shall come about on that day,’ declares the Lord of hosts, ‘that I will break his yoke from off their neck and will tear off their bonds; and strangers will no longer make them their slaves.
9 ‘But they shall serve the Lord their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘Fear not, O Jacob My servant,’ declares the Lord,
‘And do not be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar
And your offspring from the land of their captivity.
And Jacob will return and will be quiet and at ease,
And no one will make him afraid.
11 ‘For I am with you,’ declares the Lord, ‘to save you;
For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
Only I will not destroy you completely.
But I will chasten you justly
And will by no means leave you unpunished.’

Jeremiah 30:18-22
18 “Thus says the Lord,
‘Behold, I will restore the fortunes of the tents of Jacob
And have compassion on his dwelling places;
And the city will be rebuilt on its ruin,
And the palace will stand on its rightful place.
19 ‘From them will proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who celebrate;
And I will multiply them and they will not be diminished;
I will also honor them and they will not be insignificant.
20 ‘Their children also will be as formerly,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all their oppressors.
21 ‘Their leader shall be one of them,
And their ruler shall come forth from their midst;
And I will bring him near and he shall approach Me;
For who would dare to risk his life to approach Me?’ declares the Lord.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”

Jeremiah 32:37-44
37 “Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place and make them dwell in safety.
38 “They shall be My people, and I will be their God;
39 and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them.
40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.
41 “I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul.
42 “For thus says the Lord, ‘Just as I brought all this great disaster on this people, so I am going to bring on them all the good that I am promising them.
43 ‘Fields will be bought in this land of which you say, “It is a desolation, without man or beast; it is given into the hand of the Chaldeans.”
44 ‘Men will buy fields for money, sign and seal deeds, and call in witnesses in the land of Benjamin, in the environs of Jerusalem, in the cities of Judah, in the cities of the hill country, in the cities of the lowland and in the cities of the Negev; for I will restore their fortunes,’ declares the Lord.”


These are just some of the passages that speak concerning the restoration of Israel and the reconciliation between them and God. They will live as mortal men and women in and around Jerusalem on earth. Note also in the last passage how money will be in use, to buy fields. Scripture repeatedly states how Israel will be reconciled to God nationally. It is the purpose of the 70 weeks prophecy. God makes an everlasting covenant with them and they will not turn away from Him, therefore they will not be among those who are deceived by Satan when he is released at the end of the 1000 years.

Yes we will reign with Christ, we as immortal beings will share in Christ's reign. However the nation of Israel will also serve the Lord in Jerusalem on earth, they will have charge over the millennial temple, they will carry out their part in governing the kingdom. They will posses the land of their inheritance and they will be God's people and He will be their God.


If you do not go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabaernacles......it will not rain in that country......that will be a judgment....the curse will be removed.....Look at Gen.....what was it like before sin......That is what it will be like during the millium.....animals will be a peace with man......The earth will be changed....the sun and moon will be changed.....The devil is bound and the curse is removed......Because Jesus Paid our sin debt....Adam sin brought the curse....Jesus bought us back, by becoming a curse for us...He has Redeemed us.....and We will live on this earth with Him......with those that servive judgment of the end......


The curse that is removed is not the curse of sin, the curse that is removed is that they will no longer have to fear the nations around them, nor will the curses of God fall upon them.

Zechariah 14:9-11
9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one.
10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses.
11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.


Ezekiel 34:28-31
28 “They will no longer be a prey to the nations, and the beasts of the earth will not devour them; but they will live securely, and no one will make them afraid.
29 “I will establish for them a renowned planting place, and they will not again be victims of famine in the land, and they will not endure the insults of the nations anymore.
30 “Then they will know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are My people,” declares the Lord God.
31 “As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God,” declares the Lord God.


Now again I am compelled to ask the question, these mortals who are God's people who live in and around Jerusalem, who are born, who live, who marry, who age, who have children and who die during the millennial reign of Christ; where do their souls reside when they die? How do they come to be part of the "bride" and inherit eternal life on the new earth under the new heavens???

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Feb 12, 2012 2:24 pm

Now again I am compelled to ask the question, these mortals who are God's people who live in and around Jerusalem, who are born, who live, who marry, who age, who have children and who die during the millennial reign of Christ; where do their souls reside when they die? How do they come to be part of the "bride" and inherit eternal life on the new earth under the new heavens???


Hi RT,

I don't think that you'll find an answer to your question, as I don't believe that Scripture directly addresses that particular issue. But it does raise up a question that I have posed before......and that is: "Is the 70th wk complete after the Millennial Reign?"I had asked this question in the Q&A Prophecy forum.

In my opinion, it appears that the "Last Day" won't be until after the Millennial Reign has been completed, and may answer your question. This also appears to be consistent with John 6; the 1,000 years being "as a day"; and the reason and purpose that Christ must Reign until He has placed all enemies under His feet; the last enemy to be destroyed is "death" - then the End will come when He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.
(1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby shorttribber on Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:29 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
Now again I am compelled to ask the question, these mortals who are God's people who live in and around Jerusalem, who are born, who live, who marry, who age, who have children and who die during the millennial reign of Christ; where do their souls reside when they die? How do they come to be part of the "bride" and inherit eternal life on the new earth under the new heavens???


Hi RT,

I don't think that you'll find an answer to your question, as I don't believe that Scripture directly addresses that particular issue. But it does raise up a question that I have posed before......and that is: "Is the 70th wk complete after the Millennial Reign?"I had asked this question in the Q&A Prophecy forum.

In my opinion, it appears that the "Last Day" won't be until after the Millennial Reign has been completed, and may answer your question. This also appears to be consistent with John 6; the 1,000 years being "as a day"; and the reason and purpose that Christ must Reign until He has placed all enemies under His feet; the last enemy to be destroyed is "death" - then the End will come when He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.
(1 Corinthians 15:20-28)


This is exactly the reason...or one the reasons why I'm not adamantly premillennial...............neither was the church apparently in the first few centuries(before the Papacy)....they were divided on the issue
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:20 pm

In my opinion, it appears that the "Last Day" won't be until after the Millennial Reign has been completed, and may answer your question. This also appears to be consistent with John 6; the 1,000 years being "as a day"; and the reason and purpose that Christ must Reign until He has placed all enemies under His feet; the last enemy to be destroyed is "death" - then the End will come when He hands over the Kingdom to God the Father, so that God may be all in all.

Hi Mr. Baldy,

Death is destroyed at the end of the millennial reign at the white throne judgment:
Revelation 20:7-15
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


If what you are pointing out is that there is a resurrection at the end of the millennium on the "last day" then I would say that is my point exactly.

In asking the question I am trying to show that there will indeed be those who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign who are righteous. The passage in 1 Cor 15 talks about the order of the resurrection, this order lays out three distinct and separate events in which resurrections of the righteous occur- those who are Christ first fruits, after them- those who are Christ's at His coming, and then comes the end, "the end" does not specifically state that there will be a resurrection, but the context does. So scripture does talk about it though not out-rightly. Also in Revelation 20, the "sea" gives up its dead. I have explained my thoughts pretty clearly here concerning all of this. The answer is not directly spelled out in scripture, but the precedent is. There is only one means to entering eternity... that means is to be transformed/changed, from mortal to immortal, through the rapture or through resurrection. The fact that scripture says that righteous mortals will inhabit the earth during the millennial reign necessitates a resurrection event at the end of the millennium, the sea giving up its dead IMO fulfills this.

If what I am suggesting is true, then it changes the way we look at the resurrection in Rev 20, in light of 1 Cor 15, it shows rather obviously IMO that there is a resurrection event that occurs before Christ returns. Thus the post trib view is rendered incompatible with scripture, and pre-trib and mid-trib/ pre-wrath are viable possibilities.

I was asked by Seeker to defend my pre-trib view, and that is what I have been trying to do. To me the answer to my question is obvious, there is only one way those righteous mortals who live and die during the millennium can enter into their eternal state- they must be resurrected. Am I wrong???


RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Douggg on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:08 am

Mrs. B wrote:Pre-trib timeline......

At the end of the Sabbath 1000 years......The devil will be loose and go out into the earth.....and man will choose..
The devil is loose for a season.....and
Rev. 20:7....And when the thousand years are expired....Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8...And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quaarters of the earth, God and Mgog, to gther them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea....
9....Ankd they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the Saints, aboooout, and the Beloved city: and FIRE CAME DOWN FROM GOD Out of Heaven and devoured them..
10...And the devil that deceived them was Cast Into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the Beast and the False prophet are and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever....
11..And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him that sat on it , from whose face The Earth and The Heaven Fled Away; and there was found no place for them....
Then the Great White Throne Judgment.......

Mrs. B


Hi Mrs. B, (suggestion) could you make your posts without all of these "...." ? I usually don't read your posts because these "...." make it hard. And I would like to. I think you would get a lot more interaction if you eliminated the ellipses.

Do you know how to use the spelling feature? If you go to biblegateway.com, you can pick the translation of your choice and copy and paste the verses so that you don't have to type them out on your own (without all the spelling errors :wink: ) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

btw, I am open to all and any suggestions from other posters of how I can improve the read-ability of my posts.

Doug
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:46 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:In asking the question I am trying to show that there will indeed be those who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign who are righteous. The passage in 1 Cor 15 talks about the order of the resurrection, this order lays out three distinct and separate events in which resurrections of the righteous occur- those who are Christ first fruits, after them- those who are Christ's at His coming, and then comes the end, "the end" does not specifically state that there will be a resurrection, but the context does. So scripture does talk about it though not out-rightly. Also in Revelation 20, the "sea" gives up its dead. I have explained my thoughts pretty clearly here concerning all of this. The answer is not directly spelled out in scripture, but the precedent is. There is only one means to entering eternity... that means is to be transformed/changed, from mortal to immortal, through the rapture or through resurrection. The fact that scripture says that righteous mortals will inhabit the earth during the millennial reign necessitates a resurrection event at the end of the millennium, the sea giving up its dead IMO fulfills this.

If what I am suggesting is true, then it changes the way we look at the resurrection in Rev 20, in light of 1 Cor 15, it shows rather obviously IMO that there is a resurrection event that occurs before Christ returns. Thus the post trib view is rendered incompatible with scripture, and pre-trib and mid-trib/ pre-wrath are viable possibilities.

I was asked by Seeker to defend my pre-trib view, and that is what I have been trying to do. To me the answer to my question is obvious, there is only one way those righteous mortals who live and die during the millennium can enter into their eternal state- they must be resurrected. Am I wrong???



Hi again RT,

I believe that you are absolutely right - although I believe that what you have been explaining, and in light of what the rest of Scripture clearly states (in my humble opinion); I see a Pre-Wrath Rapture. The Orange Mailman does an excellent job in pointing this out when he has commented on Revelation 14.

I believe that most people miss the number of resurrections that will actually occur - and mistakenly assume that if one isn't a part of this first resurrection time-frame, then they are doomed. So yes, Revelation 20 has to be viewed in such a way that our views actually support what Scripture is saying.

We have to remember that The Two Witnesses are resurrected; those who are Martyred during the Great Tribulation, and as you have mentioned those who become saved after the return of Christ - during the Millennial Kingdom. I believe that Scripture is clear that we have points in which resurrections will have taken place - however a "first resurrection" is mentioned specifically and states that those who have part in it are "blessed and holy" - this does not negate the fact that a separate resurrection will not occur for those who become saved during the Millennial Kingdom, or who have been allowed to enter Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies - as indicated in Zechariah 14:16-19.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:44 am

Thank you Mr Baldy,

I can see how someone might come to a pre-wrath or mid trib view, however I do believe that scripture does support a pre-trib view, albeit not the traditional view that is held by most pre-tribbers. The way I see it the first four seals are opened before the 70th week begins. The fifth and sixth seals in my humble opinion, represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture- respectively. The seventh seal IMO represents the start of the 70th week.

I am willing to debate these ideas if there is any interest.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:16 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I can see how someone might come to a pre-wrath or mid trib view, however I do believe that scripture does support a pre-trib view, albeit not the traditional view that is held by most pre-tribbers. The way I see it the first four seals are opened before the 70th week begins. The fifth and sixth seals in my humble opinion, represent the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture- respectively. The seventh seal IMO represents the start of the 70th week.

I am willing to debate these ideas if there is any interest.


Hi RT,

Normally I would not respond to any debate concerning the Rapture - as I feel that it never changes the minds of those who have their minds already made up, and often the debate becomes personal. I am however very interested in your view, as you have stated that it is not the traditional pre-trib view. I find that interesting. I say so, because the pre-wrath view is really a modification of the pre-trib view (at least the way that I understand it); it just doesn't include a 7 year tribulation period.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby MarkT on Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:43 am

Pre-Wrath is certainly not like Pre-Trib in my opinion, and it most certainly does include the one 'seven.' I, for one, however, do not make the mistake, as is so commonly held, of a seven-year tribulation!

That is not what Jesus said regarding the megas thlipsis.
  • Pre-Wrath is Post-Trib as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.
  • I consider the "last day" to be whenever the 'Church Age' of God's Grace bestowed upon sinners for redemption ends - and that happens whenever Jesus comes to gather up the Elect.
  • Pre-Wrath is not like the commonly held Post-Trib/last day of the one 'seven' (mistakenly called 'tribulation period') eschatology of Spurgeon and other 19th century theologians.
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:30 am

Hi Mr. Baldy,

it seems there are different views regarding Prewrath? Just like I have a different take on pre-trib? :grin:

Normally I would not respond to any debate concerning the Rapture - as I feel that it never changes the minds of those who have their minds already made up, and often the debate becomes personal. I am however very interested in your view, as you have stated that it is not the traditional pre-trib view. I find that interesting. I say so, because the pre-wrath view is really a modification of the pre-trib view (at least the way that I understand it); it just doesn't include a 7 year tribulation period.


- I don't really have time today, but when I do perhaps I can start with the elders and who they are? This seems to be a sticking point between the traditional pre-trib view and other views. But be forewarned, my posts will likely be long and entering into this debate might embark us on a rather longish journey. But as long as there is interest I will continue.

I will work hard at not making it personal, and hope others will too.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:34 am

But be forewarned, my posts will likely be long and entering into this debate might embark us on a rather longish journey. But as long as there is interest I will continue. I will work hard at not making it personal, and hope others will too.


Hi RT,

As I've stated, I don't want a debate. I was just interested in seeing your "pre-trib" view, as I have never heard of there being different views, or modifications of the Rapture within the Pre-Trib camp. Based on some of the comments that I have seen you write, I believe that you may have something to offer, that will sincerely edify the Body of Christ.

I will leave the debating up to those who have an ego to bruise.

I look forward to seeing your comments.......God Bless!
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:43 pm

Mr. Baldy,

perhaps I could PM you, debating eats up so much of my time and I'd rather not debate either if it isn't warranted.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:27 am

RT wrote:If what you are pointing out is that there is a resurrection at the end of the millennium on the "last day" then I would say that is my point exactly.

In asking the question I am trying to show that there will indeed be those who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign who are righteous. The passage in 1 Cor 15 talks about the order of the resurrection, this order lays out three distinct and separate events in which resurrections of the righteous occur- those who are Christ first fruits, after them- those who are Christ's at His coming, and then comes the end, "the end" does not specifically state that there will be a resurrection, but the context does. So scripture does talk about it though not out-rightly. Also in Revelation 20, the "sea" gives up its dead. I have explained my thoughts pretty clearly here concerning all of this. The answer is not directly spelled out in scripture, but the precedent is. There is only one means to entering eternity... that means is to be transformed/changed, from mortal to immortal, through the rapture or through resurrection. The fact that scripture says that righteous mortals will inhabit the earth during the millennial reign necessitates a resurrection event at the end of the millennium, the sea giving up its dead IMO fulfills this.


Hi RT. I agree there must be a resurrection at the end of the millennium. It seems there will be people alive then, so what happens to them ? Wouldn't this also necessitate a rapture at that time, the changing in a twinkling of the eye ?

God Bless You

David
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T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby benny balerio on Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:45 am

Exit40 wrote:
RT wrote:If what you are pointing out is that there is a resurrection at the end of the millennium on the "last day" then I would say that is my point exactly.

In asking the question I am trying to show that there will indeed be those who will be resurrected after the 1000 year reign who are righteous. The passage in 1 Cor 15 talks about the order of the resurrection, this order lays out three distinct and separate events in which resurrections of the righteous occur- those who are Christ first fruits, after them- those who are Christ's at His coming, and then comes the end, "the end" does not specifically state that there will be a resurrection, but the context does. So scripture does talk about it though not out-rightly. Also in Revelation 20, the "sea" gives up its dead. I have explained my thoughts pretty clearly here concerning all of this. The answer is not directly spelled out in scripture, but the precedent is. There is only one means to entering eternity... that means is to be transformed/changed, from mortal to immortal, through the rapture or through resurrection. The fact that scripture says that righteous mortals will inhabit the earth during the millennial reign necessitates a resurrection event at the end of the millennium, the sea giving up its dead IMO fulfills this.


Hi RT. I agree there must be a resurrection at the end of the millennium. It seems there will be people alive then, so what happens to them ? Wouldn't this also necessitate a rapture at that time, the changing in a twinkling of the eye ?

God Bless You

David



David,..that is a good question.
I would think that if anyone has not come to the Lord Jesus as thier Lord and Savior by the time satan is let loose one more time,..then they are not going to do it.
I think it is these people who will join satan in attacking the People of the Lord.

It makes sense to me that those in thier mortal bodies who belong to the Lord, will become immortal when death is cast into the lake of fire at the Great White Throne Judgement.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:12 am

Hi RT. I agree there must be a resurrection at the end of the millennium. It seems there will be people alive then, so what happens to them ? Wouldn't this also necessitate a rapture at that time, the changing in a twinkling of the eye ?

God Bless You

David


That is a good question, the same one I asked. There will be those who will have died during the millennium who will be resurrected, but what happens to those who are encamped at Jerusalem? Some say that those saints encamped at Jerusalem are immortal, but why would Gog/Magog surround them in an attempt to destroy them if it was impossible to do so? Not only this, but I have already shown from scripture that mortals will occupy Jerusalem in earth- Israel. So what becomes of these saints? It might be that they are raptured, since there is a precedent for God to work in this way, or perhaps they are killed by those people- the descendants of Gog/Magog who will surround them in battle. Or maybe the fire sent down from God which devours those gathered against Jerusalem also takes the lives of those saints, which I think is unlikely. We just don't know what happens to them, scripture doesn't really give us any clues other than precedent. I personally would like to believe that they will be caught up, but the reality is I don't know.

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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:34 am

Hi RT......

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This passage is really sticking with me. Makes me wonder if the rapture is at the end of the millennium. Regarding Rev 7 and the great multitude, I see no confirming evidence of any of these being raptured. Prior to that only 144,000 are sealed with the seal of God, and redeemed from the earth. I suspect this might be the first rapture if we can call it that, a very small number, unless the number is an allegory, for which I see no proof either. The passages are very explicit that explain these. The following passage seems to indicate a sequence of an end time rapture, note that death is swallowed up in victory, just as death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14. And just prior to this is this passage...

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is no mention of anyone raptured here. Just those of the first resurrection, who must have died, otherwise the second death that hath no power over them seems out of sequential order. The second death has no power over them indicates they suffered the first death, that of the flesh.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Just some thoughts rambling in my head after reading the feast study. Sorry if I am a little disordered in this post. Just trying to figure this out.

God Bless You

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:49 pm

Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

This passage is really sticking with me. Makes me wonder if the rapture is at the end of the millennium. Regarding Rev 7 and the great multitude, I see no confirming evidence of any of these being raptured. Prior to that only 144,000 are sealed with the seal of God, and redeemed from the earth. I suspect this might be the first rapture if we can call it that, a very small number, unless the number is an allegory, for which I see no proof either. The passages are very explicit that explain these. The following passage seems to indicate a sequence of an end time rapture, note that death is swallowed up in victory, just as death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire in Rev 20:14. And just prior to this is this passage...


Can you expound on why this passage in Hebrews has led you to your conclusions?


here's my thoughts:
Again I refer back to the passage in 1 Corinthians concerning the order of the resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


This passage gives us the order in which people are resurrected
Christ the first fruits- these are resurrected before Christ's second coming- after that
Those who are Christ's at His coming then
comes the end when Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father.

So here's the passage you brought up:


Hebrews 9:24-28
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.


I am not very good at understanding Greek and all its nuances, but the word judgment can mean separation, or selection.

It is true that humans are appointed to die once and after that judgment- IMO Judgment is the resurrection, when one who has been counted worthy has been selected to be raised into the heavenly tabernacle to stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Christ as a man also died once, that is the point of the passage.
The high priest had to offer sacrifice every year, but Christ who died once for mankind was resurrected as High priest to offer Himself as the perfect sacrifice in the heavenly tabernacle. He was the first to be raised to life and enter the heavenly tabernacle, He was the forerunner for us, the firstborn of the dead. The point the passage is making that Christ because He died once cannot die over and over again as the Atonement sacrifice.

The multitudes of Rev 7 or those who I believe are Christ the first fruits are the first in the order to be raised to life, though there is no one passage that one can point to to prove it, I do believe that this includes those who will have been caught up in the rapture as we call it, and those who are the dead in Christ as well. Then there are those who are shown as the tribulation saints who are raised when Christ returns- at the end of the 70th week, Rev 20 shows them raised to life, then there are those at the end of the millennium. Three resurrections, all three groups are shown standing in the heavenly tabernacle before the throne of the Lamb. I believe these three groups correspond nicely with the passage in 1 Corinthians.

The fact that death is abolished at the end of the Millennium, to me has no bearing on the order of the resurrection. It only means that at that time all who have ever lived will have been separated and will have arrived at their designated eternal home, either with God or apart from Him, either the new earth or the lake of fire. After that there will be no more mortals, only eternal immortal beings, no one will die any more because death will be cast into the lake of fire.

I think the confusion is the term "judgment". Though there is a final judgment, it doesn't mean there is only one judgment. For "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ", but "each in his own order".

Again I don't think it's totally unreasonable to specualte that those living on earth who are considered among the righteous at the end of the millennium could be raptured in like manner as those Christ the first fruits were before them, since there is a precedent for God working in this way, though again it is purely speculation.

Hope this helps

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:23 am

Hi RT...

This passage gives us the order in which people are resurrected
Christ the first fruits- these are resurrected before Christ's second coming- after that
Those who are Christ's at His coming then
comes the end when Christ hands over the kingdom to the Father.


Christ is the First Fruits and these are the other First Fruits...

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. ....

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


Where are all the other Saints ? We know Christ brings with Him the Resurrected dead who live and reign with Him for the Millennium, plus there are the 144,000 who go wherever He goes. As satan is kicked out of heaven, or the air, I believe this is where the resurrected dead stay, in His Spiritual kingdom. Some go out from there, others remain in the Heavenly Temple, a Spiritual Temple in the air, where satan once was. I believe the 144,000 are the only ones raptured to life at this point. Remember we have the apostasy and great delusion which has thinned out the ranks to only true Christians. Apparently there are not very many, and most if not all of them are killed in the GT.

Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The multitudes of Rev 7 or those who I believe are Christ the first fruits are the first in the order to be raised to life, though there is no one passage that one can point to to prove it, I do believe that this includes those who will have been caught up in the rapture as we call it, and those who are the dead in Christ as well.

Well again, there are no verses that state the raptured are included in the multitude of Rev 7. So I believe these are only the resurrected dead. I have already stated where they will be for the Millennium.

The fact that death is abolished at the end of the Millennium, to me has no bearing on the order of the resurrection.


I agree. My point is though, it does have a bearing on the rapture. Since Scripture points to only one rapture the following states an association of events that possibly place it at the end of the Millennium...

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


This may be a bit flimsy, but if death is swallowed up in Victory, or the living are raptured here, then death is thrown into the lake of fire. This is at the end of the Millennium for those living at that time. No more death, the rest of the living are translated. Now look at this...

[color=blue]Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.[color]

This is after satan is locked in the bottomless pit. This first resurrection mentions only souls of those who have died and then were resurrected to life at the first Resurrection. The are apart and separate from the rest of the dead, which must mean those resurrected were also dead. No mention of the raptured living here. So while this is a bit wild, I am speculating the rapture does not happen until after the second gog/magog at the end of the Millenium. Anyone else see this as a possibility ?

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:15 am

Hi Exit40,


There's a lot there in your post that I would like to respond to but let me start here, I have made this point throughout this thread, but I know how time consuming it can be to sift through posts so will again explain, though not as thoroughly, since it is also time consuming to rehash it all, if you want more on it, I will put the burden on you to go back and read through the thread.

Christ is the First Fruits and these are the other First Fruits...


I do not believe that "Christ the first fruits" is talking about Jesus as the head. It is Jesus yes, but His body that is being spoken of. Understanding this IMO is a very important point that shows that there is a resurrection that occurs before the return of Christ.

In the passage Paul is trying to show that there is a resurrection of the dead, Jesus is the example he gives that demonstrates this is true. He is not trying to prove Christ's resurrection as some claim, but is trying to prove that the dead will be resurrected, it is implied that some were claiming that there is no resurrection of the dead(1Cor 15:13).

Paul goes on to explain that without the resurrection faith is meaningless. But, he says, Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep, by the man Adam death came to all men, but by the man Christ resurrection comes to the dead. In Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive, but each in his own order. The order applies to the "each" and the "each" refers to all who die in Adam and are made alive in Christ. That is the simple way to read the passage.

1 Corinthians 15:18-26
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


Yes Christ was the first fruits of those who are asleep, but "Christ the first fruits" is a subset of the "all who will be made alive". Christ was first as the head of the first fruits, then His body the church as the subset of the "all who will be made alive" are resurrected. They as His body are identified as being members with Him. This is a theme throughout the letter to the Corinthians as well as in other NT scriptures. We as the church are members of Christ's body, He is the head over us, He is first, but we follow next in the order as His body. If you think of the resurrection as a birth into the heavenly tabernacle it is easier to picture. Christ was the firstborn from the dead according to:

Colossians 1:18
18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


So looking at it like a birth is in line with scripture. A child when it is born into the world is typically born head first. Christ as the head was born first, but His body will follow Him. If Christ is a type of first fruit, then we as His body are of the same type as Him, since the head of a child and the body of the child share the same DNA. Hence Christ the first fruits.

This lends new dimension to the following passage.
Revelation 12:4-5
4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.


The male child head and body is caught up to heaven, the word used is harpazo- the same word used in 1 Thess 4:17 where it speaks of believers being caught up.

So we can look at the church age as a period of labor, the woman is in labor to give birth, the head (Jesus) has been born into the heavenly tabernacle but the body has not yet been born. This is consistent with the passages that speak concerning labor pains.

As I explained in my feasts study which you have read, there is more than one harvest of first fruits. The 144,000 may very well represent the first fruits of the wheat harvest, while Christ and His body may represent the first fruits of the Barley harvest. That they are both called first fruits therefore does not present a contradiction.

Thus I must respectfully disagree with you and others who see the "Christ the first fruits" as representing only Christ the head and not His body as the passage would seem to indicate.

If I am correct in my understanding, then it is scriptural proof that there is a resurrection that occurs before Christ returns. I have as yet not had anyone show me how I might be wrong, if you believe me to be, then please feel free to do so.

That's all I have time for

God bless you too!

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:00 am

Hi RT. I had taken all that into account. I'm not so sure I can agree. Regarding Christ's resurrection as the First Fruits of them that sleep, I believe at that time He brought with Him to Heaven those who had been in Abraham's bosom, all that had died righteous until that point in time. Also, from your study it appears the First Fruits offering was the barley wave. No other first fruit seems to have this relevance, except the first Fruits of the wheat.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


So Abraham's bosom was then emptied of souls, and perhaps some of those on the other side of the great chasm came to belief also as Jesus preached in hell, but that is speculation. I consider these to be amongst the First Born of the dead resurrected. This is deeply powerful here, many bodies of the Saints which slept arose right after Christ arose, as He is first in all things. We don't know if they were glorified at this point, and it seems unlikely, but I believe we can be certain they went to Paradise to wait for the Second Coming where they would be glorified at the next resurrection to life. When that is I am uncertain, but likely towards the end of the 70th week around the time the Lord presents himself to the world in wrath. Those resurrected then, including the ones arisen with Christ, don't have to face the second death. The second resurrection of the dead includes the 144,000 who were redeemed from the earth. I don't think very many, if any, live true believers will be left for this resurrection. Then at the end of the Millennium the final resurrection of the dead, and those who are alive and remain at that time.

Anyway, just fleshing out a different opinion of these events. At this time I see it as a possibility.

Thanks for all your hard work in this thread and study. I'm probably not done with this yet, as there are other Scripture I would like to explore that might say something about this line of thought. Maybe some that don't too.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:00 pm

Exit40 wrote:Hi RT. I had taken all that into account. I'm not so sure I can agree. Regarding Christ's resurrection as the First Fruits of them that sleep, I believe at that time He brought with Him to Heaven those who had been in Abraham's bosom, all that had died righteous until that point in time. Also, from your study it appears the First Fruits offering was the barley wave. No other first fruit seems to have this relevance, except the first Fruits of the wheat.

Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


So Abraham's bosom was then emptied of souls, and perhaps some of those on the other side of the great chasm came to belief also as Jesus preached in hell, but that is speculation. I consider these to be amongst the First Born of the dead resurrected. This is deeply powerful here, many bodies of the Saints which slept arose right after Christ arose, as He is first in all things. We don't know if they were glorified at this point, and it seems unlikely, but I believe we can be certain they went to Paradise to wait for the Second Coming where they would be glorified at the next resurrection to life. When that is I am uncertain, but likely towards the end of the 70th week around the time the Lord presents himself to the world in wrath. Those resurrected then, including the ones arisen with Christ, don't have to face the second death. The second resurrection of the dead includes the 144,000 who were redeemed from the earth. I don't think very many, if any, live true believers will be left for this resurrection. Then at the end of the Millennium the final resurrection of the dead, and those who are alive and remain at that time.

Anyway, just fleshing out a different opinion of these events. At this time I see it as a possibility.

Thanks for all your hard work in this thread and study. I'm probably not done with this yet, as there are other Scripture I would like to explore that might say something about this line of thought. Maybe some that don't too.

God Bless You

David



Hi again David,

Regarding Christ's resurrection as the First Fruits of them that sleep, I believe at that time He brought with Him to Heaven those who had been in Abraham's bosom, all that had died righteous until that point in time. Also, from your study it appears the First Fruits offering was the barley wave. No other first fruit seems to have this relevance, except the first Fruits of the wheat.


Christ was resurrected on the very day that the Barley first fruits wave offering would have occurred in the temple, thus Christ is a type of the barley first fruits . If you go back and read through the thread, you will find references that show that the church is also called first fruits.

As far as Abraham's bosom being emptied, we do not know for certain if that is the case.However If Abraham's bosom was emptied of souls then it was to another place where souls reside, they would not necessarily have been resurrected. We know that many (though not all) of those who had died/fallen asleep did come out of their graves when the veil was torn in the temple as you noted. But we do not know if they were simply brought back to life like Lazarus or if they were actually resurrected to glorified bodies. The passage only tells us that they appeared to many, it never says that they ascended. So we just do not have enough information to really say one way or other whether they actually underwent a resurrection to eternal life or not. Though I tend to believe that they were merely raised back to live as mortals like Lazarus and others that had been raised form the dead.

Paul writes to Timothy that some were wrongly teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, so I doubt that any resurrection event happened :

2 Timothy 2:16-18
16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,
17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.


So in this case it was considered heresy to make the claim that the resurrection already took place.

Also this passage in Hebrews talks about women receiving their dead back by resurrection, these were raised to live as mortals again, not raised to a heavenly destination:

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;


The "better resurrection" is the one to eternal life. The resurrection of the dead into the heavenly tabernacle has not yet happened.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:25 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:As far as Abraham's bosom being emptied, we do not know for certain if that is the case.However If Abraham's bosom was emptied of souls then it was to another place where souls reside, they would not necessarily have been resurrected. We know that many (though not all) of those who had died/fallen asleep did come out of their graves when the veil was torn in the temple as you noted. But we do not know if they were simply brought back to life like Lazarus or if they were actually resurrected to glorified bodies. The passage only tells us that they appeared to many, it never says that they ascended. So we just do not have enough information to really say one way or other whether they actually underwent a resurrection to eternal life or not. Though I tend to believe that they were merely raised back to live as mortals like Lazarus and others that had been raised form the dead.


Hi RT. I agree this event was not the resurrection, and they were not glorified as Christ was. Don't want to be called a heretic after all. However, I do believe they went to a different repository of souls, that being Paradise. Here is an example..

Luk 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.


If we believe when we die we go to be with Christ Jesus in Paradise then we have to believe this is the same for everyone who died in Christ from the malefactor who appears to have asked in Faith, his statement reflecting belief, on through time.

Also this passage in Hebrews talks about women receiving their dead back by resurrection, these were raised to live as mortals again, not raised to a heavenly destination:

Hebrews 11:35
35 Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;


The "better resurrection" is the one to eternal life. The resurrection of the dead into the heavenly tabernacle has not yet happened.

RT


I agree, the resurrection to glorification has probably not happened yet, but how do we know for sure at this point in time. The day may be upon 'us' shortly, and we need their glorification in order to receive ours. As for the better resurrection from Hebrews 11, I have always read this as those who suffer for Christs' name receive a better reward at their resurrection. For this they suffer joyfully looking forward to their blessing for doing so. As Christ has said, the servant is not greater than the master. So those suffering persecution even unto death have a special place in Paradise, under the altar, beneath the crystal sea, or the floor of the Throne Room, right under Christ Jesus' feet. A special mansion in Our Father's House. I do see your point about the resurrection to eternal life being a better resurrection though.

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:54 pm

Hi David,

I guess I misunderstood your post, it seems that we are pretty much in agreement.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Exit40 on Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:31 am

No problem.

:hugs: :a2:

God Bless You

David
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

T'was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:34 am

So those suffering persecution even unto death have a special place in Paradise, under the altar, beneath the crystal sea, or the floor of the Throne Room, right under Christ Jesus' feet.


The only thing I would add is that I believe that this place under the altar is not only for martyrs bur for all souls of the righteous dead, and that is where paradise is. Just to clarify.

RT
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:34 pm

Hi All,

I am copying and pasting the following from a private message discussion with Mr. Baldy, which outlines my view- I hope this is okay Mr. Baldy :grin: For those who might be interested read on:
so in a nutshell here's my thoughts on a pretrib rapture (It's a big nut :grin: ). I for now will exclude scriptural backing, but if you have any question regarding anything I will happily supply my scriptural support.

First of all I believe that John in the Revelation is caught up into the heavenly Tabernacle, this is important to understanding what he sees when he gets there, because the book of Hebrews tells us that the heavenly tabernacle was the pattern for the earthly tabernacle and the later temple. Therefore if we want to understand the heavenly tabernacle we can look for clues in the earthly and vice versa.

Anyway when John is first caught up I believe he is witness to the heavenly tabernacle under the old covenant, in other words he sees it as it was in the past, before Christ established the new covenant era. The 24 elders IMO are a heavenly Sanhedrin, or court of judges/high priests, they are not redeemed men but spiritual entities that are the heavenly counterpart to the 24 divisions of the families of the priesthood on earth, who took turns ministering in the Holy of Holies before the Lord as high priest. In the earthly temple only the high priest could enter into the Holy of Holies once a year, so it stands to reason that those who reside in the heavenly Holy of Holies, are also a type of high priest.

When John sees the Lamb standing as if slain appear before the throne in the heavenly tabernacle, He is witnessing the moment that the new covenant was instituted on behalf of all mankind. The 24 elders cast their crowns before Him as an act of relinquishing their authority to Christ. Essentially John is witness to what Hebrews describes, Jesus the high priest enters the heavenly tabernacle to offer Himself as the atonement sacrifice for mankind.

Everything in Revelation 4 and 5 speaks to a transition from the old covenant era to the new covenant era, even the song of the new covenant is sung. There is so much to this that I could write a book on these two chapters alone.

Moving on though...

With that idea in mind, that John sees Jesus enter the heavenly tabernacle when He offered Himself as the atonement lamb, which is an event from John's past,and only happens once by the way, then we have to ask when did Jesus begin opening the seals on the scroll?

But first what is the scroll? I believe it is the same scroll spoken of by the prophet Zechariah (chapter 5), his words seem to track the revelation given to John. Zechariah describes it as a flying scroll, whose dimensions by the way are the same as the footprint of the holy place of the wilderness tabernacle. It is a two sided scroll that Zechariah explains is a curse, one side has curses that purge false prophets (the thieves) and the other side purges those who are false believers (swear falsely), these curses are the judgments of God, I believe the trumpet and the bowl judgments. I also believe that the woman (wickedness) in the ephah basket represents the harlot of Revelation, she is carried to Babylon where a temple is built for her. This IMO is mystery Babylon. Again there is a lot there, I could write another book, but I will refrain for your sake. But just one note I was just reading the other day in Micah and the Lord says this:

Micah 4:10
10 “Writhe and labor to give birth,
Daughter of Zion,
Like a woman in childbirth;
For now you will go out of the city,
Dwell in the field,
And go to Babylon.
There you will be rescued;
There the Lord will redeem you
From the hand of your enemies.




Israel has technically been redeemed by Christ, but spiritually they have not accepted that for themselves. When Israel went into captivity in literal Babylon, they remained spiritual captives long after they were released from captivity. In fact they are still spiritual captives of Babylon, the Lord says He will redeem them from Babylon. I believe that this is the purpose for the 70 weeks. To redeem Israel and reconcile their relationship to God. God withdrew Himself from a relationship with the nation of Israel when they went into captivity- Ezekiel describes how the glory of the Lord left, but he also describes how that relationship will be restored and the glory of the Lord will return. This idea is fundamental to understanding the Revelation. Many people trip over this idea when they attempt to interpret prophecy.

Back to the scroll....

John sees the scroll transferred from the father to the lamb; he describes it as a two sided scroll, with writing on both sides, he sees that it is sealed shut with 7 seals. I have read that some people think the seals are actually within the scroll, but John tells us that the scroll is unopened and clearly sees all 7 seals, therefore the seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.Just a note here: A two sided scroll, is read linearly, line by line one side at a time. This is also an important point when looking at the timing of events that John describes.

Now back to the question of when Jesus began to remove the seals. If you look at the seal horses, you will note their consequences. Zechariah also talks about colored horses and their riders and what their function is. (Zech 1:7-11; 6:5-8)They patrol the earth and appease the wrath of God. If you look at the effects of the seal horses you will find that they are in fact the consequence that God laid out in Leviticus 26, for disobedience. You will find the very same effects spoken of throughout the old testament- war, famine, pestilence, death, wild beasts.
The wild beasts IMO are conquering nations (the first seal horse rider), that rule over the disobedient. The whole purpose for those on the receiving end of these consequences is to chastise the rebellious to bring them to repentance, the purpose on God's end is to appease His wrath against them.

So if these same consequences are present in the Old Testament, under the Old Covenant, then it is my opinion that the same consequences of the seal horses will be found in the New Testament under the New Covenant. So it is my opinion that Christ removed these first four seals when He was handed the scroll, just as John describes. The horses of the seals are not new to God's plan for the earth, the difference is that now Christ has authority over them, under the New Covenant era. We do in fact see their effects throughout the history of the New Covenant era do we not?

The fifth seal describes the martyred souls under the altar, I have a couple threads that explain my views concerning this, but in short I believe that what John witnesses as these martyrs receive their white robes, is their resurrection. They are part of those who make up the dead in Christ who will be raised just before those who are alive are caught up.

The sixth seal describes cataclysmic events, I believe that this is where the rapture occurs. I also believe that this happens before the 70th week begins, the scroll IMO represents the 70th week and it's curses (more later on this).

Just after John describes the scene of multitudes appearing before the throne in white robes waving palm branches, these are the raptured saints IMO.


cont'd...
Last edited by Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pre-trib timeline

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:42 pm

I am including this also, I know it may be somewhat disjointed-it was in response to Mr' Baldy's question about the martyrs- hopefully you can get the gist. Just putting it out there for any interested parties.

Okay, let's look again at the passage regarding the fifth seal martyrs:

Revelation 6:9-11
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained;
10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


First of all I think we (Mr. Baldy and I) both agree that when John first sees them under the altar, that they reside there as souls of the dead, they have not yet been raised to eternal life. They are under the altar, this altar is the heavenly pattern for the golden altar of incense that resided in the earthly tabernacle/temple. As John enters the heavenly tabernacle he sees the crystal sea before the throne of God, I have explained this in the thread titled by my user name
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=62292

But in short the crystal sea acts as a floor in the heavenly tabernacle (please see link to thread for further explanation) on this floor before the throne stands the altar of incense. The souls of the martyrs reside under the altar and therefore they are either under the crystal sea or within it, In a spiritual dimension unseen by man. I personally believe the latter. However from the heavenly perspective John is able to see them, the altar acts as a loud speaker for their voices.

In the passage above they as souls of the dead are crying out to God asking how long it will be until their blood is avenged on those who dwell on the earth. You will notice that they are given white robes and then are told to rest a while longer. They are not waiting for their resurrection but waiting for vengeance. The vengeance doesn't come until those tribulation saints die as martyrs. The act of receiving their white robe is the moment of their resurrection. The white robe IMO is their resurrection garment, when they receive their new glorified bodies.

The word "white" means light, as in shimmering, glowing light- they are clothed in glory. They are first seen as souls and then they receive these glorified robes, they have just been resurrected. THEN they are told to keep resting a while longer until their brothers are killed as they were, then they will receive the answer to their prayer, once all those who refuse to take the mark on earth are killed, then God will take vengeance on those who reside on the earth. You see God cannot take vengeance on those who reside on the earth, until those that belong to Him no longer reside there. The fifth seal martyrs will reside in the heavenly tabernacle and will continue to rest a while longer until God pours out His wrath upon the earth. The location of their continued rest will have changed from under the heavenly tabernacle to in it, the word rest can mean to "wait with quiet expectation", so they will wait quietly, patiently for the answer to their plea.

I have already shown where the tribulation saints are raised in rev 20. John was so careful to describe those raised to life at the end of the tribulation as those who refused the mark, he even goes so far as to describe the means by which they die- by beheading. To me it is reasonable to assume that if the fifth seal martyrs were part of that same group he would have used similar words to describe them as well. John also describes the tribulation saints here:

Revelation 15:2
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, holding harps of God.


John is foreseeing the resurrection of the same saints raised in Rev 20. Note here again he describes them as being victorious over the beast and his image and his name. Note also that they stand on the sea which is now described as mixed with fire. They have undergone a baptism by fire, tried by testing, which proved them pure and holy to God. The sea in the earthly temple was used for ritual cleansing, it was a baptism used by the priests so that they might be cleansed before God in order to perform the tabernacle service.

Those who arrive earlier-the multitudes along with the martyrs, do not undergo that testing (hour of testing), they have already been proved holy and pure unto God, they pass through the (crystal) sea, having their bodies redeemed from the curse of Adam's sin, they stand in the heavenly holy place to serve the Lord as a kingdom of high priests to Him, clothed in glory- pure and holy.

I also have debated in the thread repeatedly regarding the passage in 1 Corinthians 15:20-26

If you have followed the pretrib thread, then you have read my thoughts regarding this passage. the passage shows clearly that there is a group of people raised to life called the "Christ the first fruits" they are followed in the resurrection by those who belong to Christ at His coming, and I believe the passage also indicates a third group raised to life at the end of the millennium, since the passage is talking about the order in which those who are raised to life are resurrected. Christ first fruits, then those at His coming, then those at the end when death is abolished.

I have fully covered this in the thread, at the white throne judgment the sea (crystal sea IMO) gives up its dead. The crystal sea is the abode for the souls of the righteous until they are raised to life. It is a level of heaven in which paradise resides until New Jerusalem descends to earth. Then there will be no more sea, paradise will be on earth, no more death, no more need for a repository for righteous souls.

Yes Christ was the firstborn of the dead, but throughout the new testament we, the church , are described as His body. We are associated with Christ, as actually being a part of Him, members of His body. A child is born typically head first, Christ was firstborn from the dead, but we as his body will be born from the dead, as the rest of Him. The whole child born- head and body delivered to the heavenly throne room.

Lends a new dimension to this verse IMO:

Revelation 12:5-6
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.
6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days
.

The church age is essentially the woman giving birth, hence the birth-pains until we -the body of Christ are safely delivered from the dead into the throne room where we share Christ's reign.

Revelation 2:26-27
26 ‘He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;
27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;


Revelation 3:21
21 ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.





RT
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