Rapture and the Day of the Lord

[Douggg]

I am pre-70th week rapture position. However, having said that, there is good support that the generation which is raptured; the others of that same generation who are not raptured will not pass away without witnessing the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Jesus.

What do you think?

Doug L.

[1whowaits]

Doug, i would agree with you. When Jesus states 'when you see all these things', He is referring to the events he had just described in Matt 24, and 'it is near, right at the door' is a reference to the imminent DOTL and coming of the Son of Man. Also when He says 'this generation shall not pass away', he is referring to those who see 'these things', the events leading up to the DOTL. And when He says 'heaven and earth shall pass away', He is again referring to the DOTL as this does happen at the GWTJ, at the end of the millenium, the DOTL.

But something to consider is when Jesus says 'see all these things', He may be referring just to the events He described leading up to the DOTL and not necessarily the re-established nation of Israel in 1948. As Jesus uses the example of the fig tree, we assume that He could be referring to Israel but He may not be, He may just be referring to how a fig tree blooms. So we can't be sure about timing based on the starting date of the nation of Israel, although it is a possiblity.

[Douggg]

Doug, i would agree with you. When Jesus states 'when you see all these things', He is referring to the events he had just described in Matt 24, and 'it is near, right at the door' is a reference to the imminent DOTL and coming of the Son of Man. Also when He says 'this generation shall not pass away', he is referring to those who see 'these things', the events leading up to the DOTL. And when He says 'heaven and earth shall pass away', He is again referring to the DOTL as this does happen at the GWTJ, at the end of the millenium, the DOTL.

Hi 1ww, I am thinking the same thing.

The DOTL can be either a narrow timeframe or a broad timeframe depending on the context. Same goes for the Second Coming.

In 2Peter3:10, the DOTL would be a broad timeframe, because it starts out like a thief in the night - which would be sometime in the 70th week and extends at least to the end of the millenium.

2Peter3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The DOTL as a narrow timeframe would be when the world sees Jesus before the throne of God in Revelation 6:12-17 and the wicked men of the world become terrified, knowing that Jesus as about to return to take out his wrath on them.

Those are my lead up to my rationale.

In 2thessalonians2, Paul indicated that the DOTL would not begin until the man of sin is revealed.

Paul had earlier in 1thessalonians5 that they were not appointed to wrath, that will overtake the wicked on the DOTL. Which is the logical reason that the Thessalonians in 2thessalonians2 were disturbed at the rumor that the DOTL had already begun. And we know from several scriptures that the DOTL comes upon the world like a thief in the night.

So the question is when the DOTL takes place? Because the Rapture is going to happen before then. Well, we don't know when the DOTL takes place to the exact day on a timeline. But do have some very critical information.

(1) The world will be saying "peace and safety" (2) the king of fierce countenance destroys many by peace (3) the rider on the white horse is a false messiah because the true messiah in Revelation 19 also rides a white horse.

Okay here is what I think happens. The Antichrist man is the rider on the white horse and he brings peace to the world. He is also the Jews' perceived messiah. The world will be in a state of peace. Then out of nowhere, as a complete surprise, one day, the Antichrist man goes into the temple and declares that he is God. That act begins the day of the Lord - like a thief in the night. What do you think?

But something to consider is when Jesus says 'see all these things', He may be referring just to the events He described leading up to the DOTL and not necessarily the re-established nation of Israel in 1948. As Jesus uses the example of the fig tree, we assume that He could be referring to Israel but He may not be, He may just be referring to how a fig tree blooms. So we can't be sure about timing based on the starting date of the nation of Israel, although it is a possiblity.

Well, I haven't thought about it that way. But it seems to me that we are not far away from the Antichrist man making his appearance on the scene.

Doug

[Jay Ross]

hello

I wonder if the rapture everybody is is getting concerned about will happen just before God's next scheduled Sabbath?

If that is the case, then are we focusing on the right subject matter for this present time?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[Douggg]

hello

I wonder if the rapture everybody is is getting concerned about will happen just before God's next scheduled Sabbath?

If that is the case, then are we focusing on the right subject matter for this present time?

Shalom

Jay Ross

Hi Jay, well it sure seems like the Thessalonians were concerned about it. Having said that, I know from experience that stress and depression in this world, when it becomes extreme enough, can overcome a person's focus on the eternal. Satan tries to shift us. The world is not our friend.

Doug

[1whowaits]

Jay, when is God's next scheduled Sabbath? Are you referring the the Sabbath year or the 'day of His rest', the millenium?

[Jay Ross]

Jay, when is God's next scheduled Sabbath? Are you referring the the Sabbath year or the 'day of His rest', the millenium?

Hi 1whowaits,

The answer to your question really depends on the reference timeframes that you are using and the conversion factors that you use to move between them, i.e. from God's timeframe to man's timeframe and back again.

Now if God rested on His seventh Day, His Sabbath Day, then when did that finish? Was it not around 5,000 years ago and after that came the flood?

[1whowaits]

Jay, actually the 7th day of creation, based on the age of Adam and the genealogies of the OT, would have been somewhere around 6,000 years ago. The calendars have been adjusted over the millenia so an accurate timing is not possible.

Considering the 7 days of creation as a pattern, and that 1,000 years with the Lord is a day, and that the 1,000 year millenium appears to referred to as the DOTL, and during the DOTL Jesus will be at 'His place of rest' (Isa 11), it would appear that we are currently at the latter part of the 6th 'day', and the Sabbath of His rest could occur sometime within the next several years.

Also Hosea 6 refers to Israel being torn by God for 2 days and then restored on the 3rd day when she shall 'live in his presence', a possible reference to Israel living with Jesus in her midst during the millenium. Being torn could be a reference to the events of AD70 or Israel being out of fellowship after rejecting Jesus, suggesting that the 2 days (approx 2,000 years) may be coming to an end.

[Jay Ross]

Hi 1whowaits,

There are other OT verses that give a similar indication that Israel will suffer tribulation, devastation and desolation for a period of around 2,000 odd years with the first reference to this outcome being given in Ex 20:4-6. Jesus also spoke of this as well in Luke 13:6-9: -

6 And he told this parable: "A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. 7 And he said to the vinedresser, 'Lo, these three years {seasons} I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down; why should it use up the ground?' 8 And he answered him, 'Let it alone, sir, this year {season} also, till I dig about it and put on manure. 9 And if it bears fruit next year {season}, well and good; but if not, you can cut it down.'"

From this parable, it would seem that God wanted to look for fruit during the fourth age/season of Israel's existence but the vine dresser, {Jesus?}, interceded on behalf of Israel and asked that another season be allowed to pass before the tree was examined for a yielding of good fruit. We are coming to the end of this present fourth season, the time when the decreed desolation and devastation of Israel will cease and when Israel will remember the Stories of Old of How the Lord cherished them and protected them and they will humble themselves and repent of their sins, and the sins of their fathers and god will hear their cries and will heal them. This is conditional of course on Israel accepting God's terms of peace.

Now regarding the length of time from the creation of Adam until the time of the final judgement, the Bible indicates that there will be a period of 4,000 years between when the Temple, Solomon's temple, is first occupied by God and when the final Judgement occurs as foretold in Ez 47:1-12 and if we accept that the Temple was dedicated in the 22nd year of Solomon's reign, then this event happened some 3,168 years after Adam was created by God and if we add these two time intervals together, then it seems in my view that the Final judgement will occur around 7,168 years after Adam's creation as measured within man's timeframe of reference..

If I now apply your seven days theory, then a Day of the Lord is more likely going to be 1,024 years in length. Now with regards to the Chronology of the Old testament Period, T. Lydiat's work seems to reflect the closest chronology of what is recorded in the Old testament.

Now God's Sabbath Day, {Approx 1,024 years in length} ran concurrently with Man's first "season" of existence, give or take a year or so, such that it was not until after the year 1,024 or so that the Lord considered his handy work, during the first day of His next week and we have the unfolding of the Story of the Flood and the Tower of Babel before Abraham appears on the scene.

So considering these times, man is coming to the end of his sixth "season/day of the Lord" and will shortly be entering His Sabbath Day of rest which we have labelled the Millennium Age, while God is presently coming to the end of His fifth day of the Week.

Given that, Man will enter His Sabbath day of Rest within the next 30 to 40 years, God however, from my understanding, will be working hard during this same time period, His sixth day of the week, teaching all those who Go Up to the Mountain of the Lord about the things of Heaven. God's Sabbath Day will not begin until after the end of The Millennium Age for mankind.

I hope this helps.

[1whowaits]

Jay, ok, i'll bite, where does the scripture indicate a 4,000 year interval between the temple and the final judgement? How do we know exactly the year of Adam's creation, knowing that the calendar has been adjusted several times and is accurate only within 10-15 years at best?

How do you arrive at the day of rest, the Lord's Sabbath, 1,000 years, actually being 1,024 years? Because of the statements at the flood and in Rev, it appears that scripture points to a year being 360 days (1,260 days= 3.5 years), which is more consistent with the lunar year and the ancient Hebrew calendar. This being the case, 1,000 x 360day/years is actually 985 years on our current calendar, shorter than the number you have come up with. What is your scriptural reference for this?

IMO, as far as the passage in Luke 13, if Jesus is the vine dresser (which i believe He is), then fig tree is likely Jerusalem and the 3 years would more likely be a reference to the ministry of Jesus, after the 3 years of minsitry if Jerusalem did not except Him duirng the 4th year, which they did not (Jesus' ministry likely continued for 3.5 years), they would then be destroyed, which they were in 70 AD.

[Jay Ross]

Hi 1whowaits

Did I not provide the Biblical reference for you in my post above as to the 4,000 year timeframe from the dedication of Solomon's temple until the final judgement?

Also, Was not the Jewish colander adjusted by the addition of an additional month every so often such that the Jewish year remained consistent with the lunar year?

So that to say that 1260 years is precisely 3.5 years is misleading if additional month(s) are/have been added during that time 3.5 year period in question.

It seems that we have a number of issues that need to be resolved in order for us to fully understand OT prophecy with respect to time intervals.

Shalom

Jay Ross

PS: - There are around three events that I am aware of that are consistent markers that confirm this view that I hold. And yes the 4,000 years from the dedication of Solomon's Temple also adds its confirming voice.

[1whowaits]

Jay, you lost me with the Ez reference, i do not follow your line of reasoning, it appears that you are using some obscure passages where this is not stated clearly.

As far as the adding of months, that is done with the current Jewish calendar to adjust to the solar year, but the ancient calendar at the time of Noah appears to be based on a 30 day/month, 360 day/year. Gen 8 describes 150 days as 5 months which would be 30 day months which suggests that ar one time a year was 360 days.

Rev 12 appears to equate 1,260 days to 3.5 years, suggesting that either something occurs to the earth to put us back on a 360 day/year, or that the calendar God is using is based on a 360 day year, which some believe is also suggested in Dan 9. With this type of calendar/year there would be no adding of months to adjust to the solar year.

[Jay Ross]

Hi 1whowaits,

Perhaps this chapter from daniel will throw some enlightenment on this matter for you?

Daniel 12: - 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered, every one whose name shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. 4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

5 Then I Daniel looked, and behold, two others stood, one on this bank of the stream and one on that bank of the stream. 6 And I said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, "How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?" 7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven; and I heard him swear by him who lives for ever that it would be for a time, two times, and half a time; {i.e. 3,584 years in my view} and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be accomplished. 8 I heard, but I did not understand. Then I said, "O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?" 9 He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but those who are wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away, and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits and comes to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. 13 But go your way till the end; and you shall rest, and shall stand in your allotted place at the end of the days."

Now a simple question, when did the confirmation of God's covenant with Abraham occur? How old was Abraham when it happened?

Shalom

Jay Ross

[1whowaits]

Jay, you're losin' me dude, could you just directly state your view?

[Jay Ross]

Yes you might be right but the question is still relevent. Abraham was 100 years old when God's Covenant with him was confirmed with the birth of Isaac at the end of the 2048 year after Adam's creation. If my theory is right then there should be a close alignment with the begining of the third day of the Lord which in my view began in the year 2049 after Adam's creation.

Now if Isaac was born right at the end of the year 2048, then it justified to say that his birth was right at the start of the year 2049.

I trust that this explanation helps you.

Shalom

Jay Ross