When is the Rapture?

[mrgravyard49]

A Good New Video by Perry Stone on When is the Rapture.
http://media.voe.org/

[Mr Baldy]

"When is the Rapture?"

Good question......

I guess this particular thread is to draw out the differences between the Body of Christ of the timing of the Rapture - 'YET AGAIN'. Aren't some of you tired of this??????

Okay, I'll bite....... but you have used a very poor example of someone who can represent a Pre-Tribulation standpoint in this so-called Preacher.

If one were to carefully view the Scriptures in comparison to what this guy is implying - one would clearly see that there is absolutely NO pre-tribulation Rapture.

He immediately uses Daniel 9:27 to lay his foundation for a "7 year" tribulation period. This is NOT found in Daniel 9:27. Nor will you find exactly how long the tribulation period is mentioned in Scripture. Daniel 9:27 doesn't even mention a tribulation period - but a time that the coming Antichirst will confirm a covenant with many. But there will be those who follow this nonsense.

Scripture warns us over and over again about those who will come in the Name of Christ, and their false teachings. Scripture also tells us that what they teach is NO GOSPEL AT ALL.

Search the Scriptures for yourselves. Don't let someonelse tell you what is the Gospel Truth - especially without confirmation from the Holy Spirit of God!

[gracebyfaith]

What amazes me is to constant bickering on the timing of the coming of the Lord.

Number one, many missed the first time and definitely were not ready for His coming, due to their relationship and teaching of “organized religion” Once, again today theological ideologies seem to cause a great deal of division, controversy, and strife among Gods people.

The foundation of Gods calling, and the blood provided for by His Son I will not elaborate on.

1Peter 3:18 ESV For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God

Ephesians 2:13 ESV But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Nor, will I touch on the precious cross where the flesh was conquered, and offered for us to accept, and to reckon ourselves dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord “Rom 6:11”

These two basic Christian beliefs I will not touch on because those on this board should know them and, without them you will not move on to a greater relation with God and, or in no way inter into heaven. 1 Cor 15:50 “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God”. Therefore, you die ready, or you depart in His death ready. They are both the same.

Fact of business is, there is much leaven out there amongst us, and more than not know how to deal with it, and confront it. They just haven't found the Word (Christ) is sharper than any two edged sword able to divide the soul from the spirit.

They rely on their own intellect and have not known or touched on the reality that Jesus is all things. Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you. Christ is truly the sum of all Spiritual things!

Find Him as His self in you and not as a gift for individual things, for the gift is Him. Peace, patience, joy, way, truth, life, humility, knowledge, wisdom, resurrection and so forth have all been given in Him who is in you. Christ now longer ask you to follow but to abide in Him.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are different because they strengthen the Body of Christ, the Church. The question proposed, is the life of Christ growing, yearning, leading, in you?

If so, the timing should not be as important as your position in Christ Jesus our Lord. The signs are all around us. The fruits of someone are sometimes hard to know through the internet.

No matter how or when Lord Jesus, I will wait for you.

Andy

[mrgravyard49]

Hum,, Ok.. 1st.. " so- called Preacher" I say Match Credentals...
2ed.. As far as a Pretrib, Yes I believe we the church are NOT to be here during the 7 Years because its NOT for Us.
and Yes many of us focus on it because we Want to Go Home.. We have had enough of this world and many of us are out of work running out of money, Food and are losing our homes.. GEE Wonder Why we Focus on the Rapture.?

[Jericho]

He immediately uses Daniel 9:27 to lay his foundation for a "7 year" tribulation period. This is NOT found in Daniel 9:27. Nor will you find exactly how long the tribulation period is mentioned in Scripture. Daniel 9:27 doesn't even mention a tribulation period - but a time that the coming Antichirst will confirm a covenant with many. But there will be those who follow this nonsense.

How can we not know how long the tribulation is? There's lot's of markers in scripture. We know a week is 7 years. The convenient is confirmed and broken half-way thru. We know the two witness minister for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:3), we know the third temple will be under gentile control for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:1), we know the AC is given power for 3-1/2 years (rev 13:7), we know Israel flees into the desert for 3-1/2 years (rev 12:14), and we know Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet to flee to the mountains (Mar 13:4).

[Mr Baldy]

Hum,, Ok.. 1st.. " so- called Preacher" I say Match Credentals...

Hummmm, I got one better for ya.....I say lets Match who's telling the truth.

[Mr Baldy]

How can we not know how long the tribulation is? There's lot's of markers in scripture. We know a week is 7 years. The convenient is confirmed and broken half-way thru. We know the two witness minister for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:3), we know the third temple will be under gentile control for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:1), we know the AC is given power for 3-1/2 years (rev 13:7), we know Israel flees into the desert for 3-1/2 years (rev 12:14), and we know Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet to flee to the mountains (Mar 13:4).

Sword,

With all due respect, in all that you have listed, none of them prove an actual 7 year tribulation period. Shall we let Scripture speak for itself, and not read into it?

This is what most Pre-tribbers do - they read into Scripture, and place things there that are not there. I was once guilty of it myself. Honestly, letting go of the Pre-Trib doctrine was one of the hardest things that I had to do. It's based on a faulty intrepretation of Scripture, and reading into a lot of things that just arent there. I stood very firm on believing this nonsense - until I read, and studied the Scriptures for myself. The very foundation for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is just not there, without adding non-biblical things into the plain reading of Scripture. I'm sorry. If I have come across too harsh, then I apologize for that as well - because I know how hard it is to let go of something that you so firmly believe in. After reading the Scriptures for myself, I truly felt like an idiot for listening to the teachings of others, who were taught wrong as well.

If you, or anyone else for that matter, can prove a 7 year tribulation period with Scripture, then I will glady apologize, ask for yours and others foregivness, and admit I was wrong.

[shorttribber]

How can we not know how long the tribulation is? There's lot's of markers in scripture. We know a week is 7 years. The convenient is confirmed and broken half-way thru. We know the two witness minister for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:3), we know the third temple will be under gentile control for 3-1/2 years (rev 11:1), we know the AC is given power for 3-1/2 years (rev 13:7), we know Israel flees into the desert for 3-1/2 years (rev 12:14), and we know Jesus said when you see the abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet to flee to the mountains (Mar 13:4).

I know Christ fulfilled the first 3.5 at His ministry and I BELIEVE only 3.5 remains of tribulation.
I.....KNOW.....a CONFIRMED (made to prevail and therefore unbreakable) covenant can NOT be MADE and then BROKEN in the future.

Can you see the problem that exists between what the Word of God "Confirm" means at what you believe?

Find seven years of tribulation PLAINLY STATED in scripture...........

[Resurrection Torchlight]

mrgravyard49 wrote:Hum,, Ok.. 1st.. " so- called Preacher" I say Match Credentals...



Hummmm, I got one better for ya.....I say lets Match who's telling the truth.

I don't think either attitude is the place to begin an honest debate. Please guys, let's not poke at character, stick to the topic of debate.

I personally do believe that there is precedent for the "weeks" prophesied by Daniel to represent periods of seven years. Sabbath years to be precise. I also personally believe that scripture does support a pre-trib or rather pre-seventieth week rapture. I however do see many problems with the traditional pre-trib view. For instance I do not believe that the 24 elders represent the church. I think the multitudes before the throne represent those who are raptured prior to or concurrent with the start of the 70th week, rather than representing the tribulation martyrs and that this rapture happens at the opening of the sixth seal. I also do not see that scripture supports a "bema" judgment for the church. I can and have shown scriptural support for these ideas. I would not claim, however, that I am absolutely correct, I admit that some of what I believe is based partly on speculation.

I also think that some of what others believe here is also based at least in some part on speculation. If we try to interpret prophecy based solely on what is contained in the text we would all be specualting. Prophecy and its interpretation must be looked at in light of all of scripture and its precedents. I don't care if you are an ordained minister with an M.Div, or a doctorate, everyone who attempts to interpret prophecy engages in some form of speculation. It's easy to discredit one another by saying that they are specualting, everyone does, just share your evidence and let others be the judge of whether or not it holds water, so to speak.

Find seven years of tribulation PLAINLY STATED in scripture...........

Find for me somewhere in scripture that plainly states that the 70 weeks are not seven years. I can show precedent for them being so, but I cannot show you it plainly stated. Find for me in scripture "plainly stated" that the first half of the 70th week has already been fulfilled- you cannot. You can interpret certain passages in a way that would seem to indicate that is so, but still that is speculation- that is not plainly stated. So it is with prophecy. So show respect for each other, give your evidence and don't be so defensive about it. And remember that the person on the other side of the screen is likely just as much a believer as you are.

Daniel 9:27
27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

I know Christ fulfilled the first 3.5 at His ministry and I BELIEVE only 3.5 remains of tribulation.
I.....KNOW.....a CONFIRMED (made to prevail and therefore unbreakable) covenant can NOT be MADE and then BROKEN in the future.

Can you see the problem that exists between what the Word of God "Confirm" means at what you believe?

1396 גָּבַר [gabar /gaw·bar/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 310; GK 1504; 25 occurrences; AV translates as “prevail” 14 times, “strengthen” three times, “great” twice, “confirm” once, “exceeded” once, “mighty” once, “put” once, “stronger” once, and “valiant” once. 1 to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to be strong, mighty. 1a2 to prevail. 1b (Piel) to make strong, strengthen. 1c (Hiphil). 1c1 to confirm, give strength. 1c2 to confirm (a covenant). 1d (Hithpael). 1d1 to show oneself mighty. 1d2 to act proudly (toward God).
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (H1396). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

(hif) confirm, i.e., to establish a relationship with a person or group (Da 9:27+);
Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.) (DBLH 1504, #2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

I see no where in the definition that this word "confirmed" means it is unbreakable.

Confirmed covenants can be and are shown to be broken- Israel for example confirmed their covenant with God over and over and broke it as many times as they confirmed it. And the Lord Himself gave Israel a certificate of divorce. Just because this prince who is to come- makes firm a covenant doesn't mean it is unbreakable. Just because he makes it prevail doesn't mean that he cannot also break it later on. Secondly no where in the passage does it say that the covenant is actually broken anyway. It only says that in the midst of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offerings, now we can speculate based on the language used that the "covenant" has something to do with sacrifices and grain offerings, which I personally believe is the case, but that is not "plainly said".


RT

[shorttribber]

1396 גָּבַר [gabar /gaw·bar/] v. A primitive root; TWOT 310; GK 1504; 25 occurrences; AV translates as “prevail” 14 times, “strengthen” three times, “great” twice, “confirm” once, “exceeded” once, “mighty” once, “put” once, “stronger” once, and “valiant” once. 1 to prevail, have strength, be strong, be powerful, be mighty, be great. 1a (Qal). 1a1 to be strong, mighty. 1a2 to prevail. 1b (Piel) to make strong, strengthen. 1c (Hiphil). 1c1 to confirm, give strength. 1c2 to confirm (a covenant). 1d (Hithpael). 1d1 to show oneself mighty. 1d2 to act proudly (toward God).
Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (H1396). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

(hif) confirm, i.e., to establish a relationship with a person or group (Da 9:27+);
Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.) (DBLH 1504, #2). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

I see no where in the definition that this word "confirmed" means it is unbreakable.

Confirmed covenants can be and are shown to be broken- Israel for example confirmed their covenant with God over and over and broke it as many times as they confirmed it. And the Lord Himself gave Israel a certificate of divorce. Just because this prince who is to come- makes firm a covenant doesn't mean it is unbreakable. Just because he makes it prevail doesn't mean that he cannot also break it later on. Secondly no where in the passage does it say that the covenant is actually broken anyway. It only says that in the midst of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offerings, now we can speculate based on the language used that the "covenant" has something to do with sacrifices and grain offerings, which I personally believe is the case, but that is not "plainly said".

I see nothing in this definition to mean "establish'.....prevail means to prevail....if the covenant is broken, it does not prevail...that simple.

[shorttribber]

Israel for example confirmed their covenant with God over and over and broke it as many times as they confirmed it.

Can you provide an example....where the same word is used?

[shorttribber]

Find for me somewhere in scripture that plainly states that the 70 weeks are not seven years. I can show precedent for them being so, but I cannot show you it plainly stated. Find for me in scripture "plainly stated" that the first half of the 70th week has already been fulfilled- you cannot. You can interpret certain passages in a way that would seem to indicate that is so, but still that is speculation- that is not plainly stated.

True......but.......the difference is in how many times and ways 3.5 years of tribulation is "plainly stated" or referenced. I believe at least twelve times.

You can believe that certain 3.5 year refs speak of separate times but you only speculate...as is the case by me...3.5 years or variations of it are nevertheless mentioned repeatedly.

I don't recall being disrespectful...if I have, I do apologize.......I use caps ONLY to distinguish a word above others....not to yell.

[Mr Baldy]

I personally do believe

I also personally believe

For instance I do not believe

I think

I admit that some of what I believe is based partly on speculation.

I also think

I personally believe

I would not claim, however, that I am absolutely correct, I admit that some of what I believe is based partly on speculation.

Dear RT,

If you look at all the aforementioned quotes that I have gathered from what you have posted - the last quote that I have posted from your comments just about says it ALL. At the end of the day....all I can say is let's please NOT let our personal "opinions" be evidence for what "Thus sayeth the Lord" - but let's do allow Scripture to speak for itself.

[Jericho]

Sword,

With all due respect, in all that you have listed, none of them prove an actual 7 year tribulation period. Shall we let Scripture speak for itself, and not read into it?

This is what most Pre-tribbers do - they read into Scripture, and place things there that are not there. I was once guilty of it myself. Honestly, letting go of the Pre-Trib doctrine was one of the hardest things that I had to do.

If we could put the rapture timing debate aside for a moment and just focus on the question at hand, which is "how long is the tribulation?" You had said Dan 9:27 does not mention a tribulation period but just a covenant. While the tribulation isn't emphatically mentioned you have to connect the dots.

In Dan 9:24 it says one of the purposes of those 70 weeks is to "finish transgression". That transgression is the corporate rejection of Jesus as Messiah, which is what the 70th week is about - to bring Israel to repentance. Daniel says that 69 weeks will happen before the holy city (Jerusalem) and the Sanctuary (Second Temple) are destroyed (Dan 9:26), which happened in 70 AD. That leaves us with 7 years which resumes when the Anti-Christ confirms the covenant for one week (Dan 9:27). Half way thru the abomination of desolation occurs (Dan 9:26). This is where Jesus warns Israel to flee to the mountains (Mar 13:4, Rev 12:6) and marks the final 3-1/2 years of Jacob's trouble aka the great-tribulation. Jesus linked Daniel's prophecy, which includes the AC's covenant, with tribulation events.

Now if we look at the straight-forward chronology of Revelation the seals and trumpets are opened BEFORE the abomination of desolation mid-point. I say this because the last trumpet ends about the time the woman (Israel) flee's to the desert (Rev 12:6) which as noted above is when the abomination of desolation occurs. So there's war, famine, pestilence, earthquakes, natural disasters (all of which I would argue are judgements because they are initiated by angels and by Jesus.) Tribulation is defined as grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering. I don't know about you but that sounds like tribulation to me. So the first 3-1/2 years is tribulation and the last 3-1/2 is the great-tribulation.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

If you look at all the aforementioned quotes that I have gathered from what you have posted - the last quote that I have posted from your comments just about says it ALL. At the end of the day....all I can say is let's please NOT let our personal "opinions" be evidence for what "Thus sayeth the Lord" - but let's do allow Scripture to speak for itself.

Mr. Baldy- that was precisely my point, to show what my opinions are, which is exactly why I chose to use the words you quoted, what I said was not meant to be evidence, I was merely stating what I believe scripture does support. Which is my opinion, an opinion that is based on evidence, which I have not yet shared in this thread. I agree with you entirely, that scripture does and should speak for itself, but scripture does not clearly spell out the exact interpretation of prophecy and thus much of what we debate is based on our opinions even you yourself must concede this, all I was doing was honestly pointing out my own. If it were all so clearly spelled out we would have no cause at all for debate would we? As I said I have many times over the years at FP defended my understanding with scripture, that understanding has grown and yes I have even changed my position on some things as I have learned from my own study and from others. I am not unwilling to defend my position with scripture and if you would like me to, just pick out one point to get me started and I will be happy to do so(as time affords).

You however have not shown what your own view is based on scripture- you have only voiced your "personal opinion" about others views, could you please elaborate concerning your view so that I may see for myself what it is you have learned from scripture that so clearly shows that there is no "pre-trib" rapture.

It is obvious that you are very passionate about your view, but I have yet to see you define and defend it. Perhaps you have and I missed it somewhere if so I apologize, maybe you could post a link to where I might find it here at FP?

You claim to have solid scriptural evidence, if so you might hold the key to understanding that will put the discussion to rest once and for all- so please by all means enlighten me-I would love to have solid evidence so that I might have firm, clear and obvious scriptural facts to stand on rather than just my "opinions".

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

True......but.......the difference is in how many times and ways 3.5 years of tribulation is "plainly stated" or referenced. I believe at least twelve times.

You can believe that certain 3.5 year refs speak of separate times but you only speculate...as is the case by me...3.5 years or variations of it are nevertheless mentioned repeatedly.

I do believe that the great tribulation is 3.5 years. I also believe that Daniel refers to this final "times, time and half a time" is the second half of the "week". It is the other 3.5 years that are in question- the first half of the "week", you believe it has already been fulfilled, I believe it has not. We have talked about this in another thread recently if memory serves me correctly. You believe that the 70th week is partially fulfilled, while I believe that it has not yet begun. I don't like the term "tribulation" used to describe the 70th week . Tribulation is something the church will endure always, but the "great tribulation" is a special time in history, the final half of that week . I prefer to use the term "70th week".

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Israel for example confirmed their covenant with God over and over and broke it as many times as they confirmed it.


Can you provide an example....where the same word is used?

Not concerning a covenant per-se, though Israel did in fact re-confirm their covenant with the Lord on several occasions, just because this word wasn't used doesn't mean that isn't what happened, however the same word is used in this passage where you see the word "prevail"

Genesis 7:18-24
18 The water prevailed and increased greatly upon the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.
19 The water prevailed more and more upon the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.
20 The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.
21 All flesh that moved on the earth perished, birds and cattle and beasts and every swarming thing that swarms upon the earth, and all mankind;
22 of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.
23 Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah was left, together with those that were with him in the ark.
24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.

By your definition if the waters of Noah's flood "prevailed" they should not have ever receded, we know in fact that they did exactly that. They prevailed for a time and then they receded. It is the same word used in Daniel 9. Thus "prevail" does not necessarily mean to prevail indefinitely.

Here is another example:

Psalm 65:3
3 Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.

Again here you see iniquity prevailing,(same word) yet God forgiving. So does iniquity continue to prevail? No because God forgives. Again prevailing is a temporary state, not indefinite. (Thank the Lord for that!)

I am no Hebrew scholar, the added note I quoted in my post is from the Dictionary of Biblical languages, it shows that the meaning of the word "make firm" or "confirm" as used in Daniel 9:27 means to "establish a relationship with a person or group". Like I said I am no expert, so unless you are or know of someone who is, I defer to those who did the research in order to write this dictionary and would assume that they are correct in their interpretation of it. Putting this aside there are several meanings in the Strong's for this word one being to "give strength" which IMO (sorry Mr.Baldy) is a better fit with the use of the word in the passage- The prince who is to come "gives strength" to a covenant with many.

I don't recall being disrespectful...if I have, I do apologize.......I use caps ONLY to distinguish a word above others....not to yell.

You weren't, I was directing my comment toward mrgravyard49 and Mr.Baldy, your point about using caps is duly noted.

RT

[mrgravyard49]

http://media.voe.org/

[Tevye]

When is the Rapture?

What did Jesus say?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days

the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven
with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect
from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
Matthew chapter 24

When is the Rapture? (in relation to the breaking of the seals)

"When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake,
and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky
fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished
like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Revelation chapter 6

It seems quite clear, and plainly stated that the rapture
(the gathering of the elect)
happens after the tribulation, at the sixth seal.
Jesus described what would happen just before the gathering (the Rapture)
and He revealed that event to the Apostle John in the story of the seven sealed scroll.
It seems to me that in the event that the rapture happens at the sixth seal
and the tribulation ends at the sixth seal, then everything after (the trumpets and bowls)
are not able to be a part of any tribulation or the great tribulation. They must be God's wrath.

Scripture in it's most normal, natural, and customary sense.

To help the interpreter achieve success in the process of interpreting the Bible, we offer the following overview. The following principles of interpretation, none of them unique to us, but all of them held by careful students of Scripture throughout history, have been and will be followed as honestly and consistently as possible.

(1) The first principle is that the interpreter must seek to discover the original author's intended meaning. We understand that Paul, Peter, James and John as well as other writers of Scripture determined the meaning of the text at the time it was written. Therefore, our job as modern interpreters is to discover that original meaning. To discover the original meaning, all Scripture must be understood in its most normal, natural, and customary (i.e., literal or face value) sense.

Biblical words and phrases had a particular meaning during biblical times. Thus, we must discover what those words and phrases meant and how they combine to communicate specific meanings.
revelationcommentary.org

[shorttribber]

By your definition if the waters of Noah's flood "prevailed" they should not have ever receded, we know in fact that they did exactly that. They prevailed for a time and then they receded. It is the same word used in Daniel 9. Thus "prevail" does not necessarily mean to prevail indefinitely.

The definition of "prevail" does not require infinite fulfillment as you suggest, it requires a timeframe God determines.
In the case of Dan.9:27 the determined time is seven years. I will here repeat what I have mentioned many times before regarding the difference between the seven year CONFIRMATION of .......THE .....Covenant and the everlasting COVENANT itself.

The determined, prophesied and unchanging WILL of God to CONFIRM His Abrahamic Covenant with.........MANY.....is seven years.

A signature, handshake, verbal AGREEMENT, CONFIRMATION usually takes only a MOMENT of time............BUT.........WHAT is AGREED TO/ COVENANTED may last fifteen or thirty or even a lifetime until death or infinity.

The waters "prevailed", they succeeded in OVERCOMING and overwhelming the earth unpaused and unhindered, thus fulfilling God's PROMISE to Noah.

Again here you see iniquity prevailing,(same word) yet God forgiving. So does iniquity continue to prevail? No because God forgives. Again prevailing is a temporary state, not indefinite. (Thank the Lord for that!)

Yes, iniquity "prevails" until it's determined end......in the case of a Christian, at our new birth.

"establish a relationship with a person or group".

I have a "relationship" with my children's schoolteacher and many other friends....but I don't have a prevailing/strengthened covenant with them. The scholarly definition you've provided lacks a great deal of the actual meaning of the words "Confirm THE Covenant" IMO.

[shorttribber]

Confirmed covenants can be and are shown to be broken- Israel for example confirmed their covenant with God over and over and broke it as many times as they confirmed it. And the Lord Himself gave Israel a certificate of divorce. Just because this prince who is to come- makes firm a covenant doesn't mean it is unbreakable. Just because he makes it prevail doesn't mean that he cannot also break it later on.

It matters not if "the MANY" break it.......what matters is this:

Daniel................9....................:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, ........keeping .........the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

What MATTERS is that.............. HE.............. CONFIRMS/PREVAILS/PROVES/STRENGTHENS His PROMISE and OVERCOMES..........ALL that CONTEND AGAINST His Covenant with MANY.

We are allowed a great privilege to PARTICIPATE/KOINONIA in the CONFIRMATION of THE Covenant but the CONFIRMATION of it is not dependent upon us.......Hallelujah! Boy that'll preach right there!

[Mr Baldy]

could you please elaborate concerning your view so that I may see for myself what it is you have learned from scripture that so clearly shows that there is no "pre-trib" rapture.

Sure, as Tevye has clearly pointed out....and thank you Tevye.

When is the Rapture?

What did Jesus say?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

[mark s]

If that were the rapture, then it leaves you with a problem of who the sheep and the goats are.

It also leaves you with a problem explaining how the disciples would have understood Jesus to be speaking of gentiles as well as Jews, since "elect" would not be used do include gentiles for about another 30 years.

No matter that numerous times the prophets of old foretold God's regathering of Israel to their land. No matter that this matches with that gathering perfectly. No matter that when you would speak of gathering the chosen, and gathering the nations, the Jews, out of their cultural background, would think you meant gathering the Jews, and gathering the gentiles.

Of course, that's how Joel frames this end times scenario as well.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Tevye]

When is the Rapture?

Jesus on the Mount of Olives told Peter
the story of the gathering of the elect (the Rapture)
Peter in turn later spoke of who the chosen ones are.

"..you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession,
that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy,
but now you have received mercy." 1 Peter chapter 2

On the last day, only God's elect will be saved:
"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"
(Matthew 24:31 // Mark 13:27).
-
"Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace,
then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace;
otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks;
but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:5-7).

The Apostles knew (and remembered) what Jesus was saying in Matthew 24
about who the elect are and will be, and they passed on this message
to the chosen Jews and the Gentiles alike.

The Rapture will happen when Jesus said it would
and just as He said it would be.
On the Mount of Olives Yeshua was speaking to those who believed in Him
and knew they would pass on the message to others who would believe
Jew and Gentile alike.

"Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns?
It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God,
who also makes intercession for us"

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies,
kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,
if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do" (Colossians 3:12,13).

This election before the foundation of the world was in Christ...

The election of physical Israel was but a sign of a higher spiritual election on the basis,
not of the lineage of Abraham, but of the faith of Abraham.

So does this mean that physical Israel has been abandoned? No.
There will be a remnant.

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out
his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."
-
What shall we say, then?
That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it,
that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law
that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why?
Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.
They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
-
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means!
-
What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it,

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!
Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

When will the Rapture happen?

Exactly when Jesus said it would.

[gracebyfaith]

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Mrs. B]

When is the Rapture?


The Catching Away....

The Rapture is the Ressurrection.....

I Corin. 15:50.....Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God....
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption....

That is WHY Jesus came Preaching.....Behold the Kingdom of God is at Hand
God revealed to Daniel.....A Kingdom coming without no end...
Jesus came Preaching That the Kingdom was at Hand.....and You Must Be Born AGAIN of the Spirit...
The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual Kingdom......John 3
We are in this world...but we are not of this world.....we have been translated into the invisible Kingdom of God's Dear Son.....We are Born Again....we are in this world but not of this world...
51....Behold, I shew you a Mystery;
We shall not all sleep, But we shall all be changed,
52....In a Moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP for the Trump shall sound, and the dead shall be Raised incorruptible, and we shall be Changed.....

There is not a rapture as taught today......
But there is a Keeping during this Tribulation....not a rapture
What is called the rapture is the first resurrection.....

Rev. 7:3....Saying, Hurt not the Earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, Till We have Sealed the Servants of our God in their Foreheads....
Now this will be Jews as well as Gentiles.....A Keeping or sealing of those who will be called worthy.....
9...And after this I beheld, and, lo a
Great multitude, which no man could number of all nations, and kindred, and people and tongues, stood Before the Throne and Before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10...Crying with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the Throne
7:14....And I said unto him, Sir thou knowest...And he said to me, These are they which came out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and make them white in the Blood of the Lamp....

Rev. 9:4....And it was commanded them that they should Not Hurt the Grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; But only those men which have NOT The Seal of God in their Foreheads.. 5...And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months, and their torment was the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

These are they which came out of Great Tribulation......

Matt. 24:21...For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the Beginning of the World to this time, NO Nor ever shall be...
22...And except those days should be shortened...there should NO Flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.....This is Gods mercy to save the lost.....Great TribulationMatt. 24:28...For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together...
29...Imediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the Heavens shall be shaken

31...And he shall send His Angels with a Great Sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the Four Winds, from one end of Heaven to the Other....
34...Verily I say unto you....This GENERATION shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled....
33...So likewise Ye, When ye shall see all these things...KNOW that it is near, even at the doors...
THIS Generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled...

Seeing and Knowing this....What manner of people outht you to be???


MRS. B

[Abiding in His Word]

There is not a rapture as taught today......
But there is a Keeping during this Tribulation....not a rapture

I agree.

[Tevye]

What is called the rapture is the first resurrection.....

These are they which came out of Great Tribulation......

Matt. 24:21...For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the Beginning of the World to this time, NO Nor ever shall be...
22...And except those days should be shortened...there should NO Flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.....This is Gods mercy to save the lost.....Great TribulationMatt. 24:28...For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together...
29...Imediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the Heavens shall be shaken

31...And he shall send His Angels with a Great Sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the Four Winds, from one end of Heaven to the Other....

"...I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God,
and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads
or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not
come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!
Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ,
and they will reign with him for a thousand years."
Revelation chapter 20

[Jericho]

I'd like to see the church explicitly named in scriptures as going thru the tribulation without using general terms like "elect" and "saint", which can mean many things. The 70th week is all about the Jews. The purpose of the tribulation is about judging a Christ rejecting world and dealing with the transgression of the Jews for rejecting there Messiah. The Church has no purpose after that, the two-witness are preaching the gospel, the 144,000, and even angels but no mention of the church still evangelizing. We were never mean to replace the role of the Jews which was to be the priests to the nations and to spread the Gospel about Jesus. We are in essence doing there job until the Church age ends, which I believe begins with the tribulation. Concerning the length of the tribulation:

The Van Kampen view of the rapture is not only built upon faulty interpretation of the Bible, but also upon flawed data and logic. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal released the first published expression of the Van Kampen rapture view in all of history. I immediately purchased and read the book. While I detected many problems with the book, one item stuck out around page 100. Rosenthal made the following statement: “The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament” (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103). Having done a word study of thlipsis just the week before in my normal study for teaching the Bible in my pastoral duties, it was fresh on my mind and I knew that my computer concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times in 43 New Testament verses. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word “tribulation” is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08). I don’t believe that to be the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where “tribulation” (KJV = “afflicted”) refers to the first half of Daniel’s 70th week. Dr. John McLean explains:

Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false. A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word “tribulation” (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel. Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name” (NASB). Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation. The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsin while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel: “For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflicted you” (NASB). Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as “The Tribulation,” or “A Time of Tribulation.” (John McLean, “Chronology and Sequential Structure of John’s Revelation” in Thomas Ice & Timothy Demy, eds., When The Trumpet Sounds (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), p. 341.)

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Van_Kampen.html

[Abiding in His Word]

I'd like to see the church explicitly named in scriptures as going thru the tribulation without using general terms like "elect" and "saint", which can mean many things.

First I'd like to say that I'm not very astute in debating this topic, but I do have an opinion. My premise for believing as I do is based on the basic foundational method of hermeneutics that scripture interprets scripture. That said, I find no place in scripture that alludes to believers being removed from the earth for any timeframe to avoid or escape tribulation.

While this may appear simplistic to some who gather scripture from a variety of places to support a rapture (meaning an escape to somewhere), I find nowhere that defines that place as one that will temporarily "house" believers only to return at the millennium and remain for the restoration of the earth per Rev. 21-22.

Second, the only foundation I find for marriage is found in Genesis where only one man and one woman stand before God to be united in "marriage." It states: For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. Gen 2:24 This rule of marriage is reinforced and validated by both Jesus and Paul in keeping with scripture interpreting or supporting scripture.

Since Jesus is the Bridegroom, He must abide by that rule of marriage imo. He will leave His Father (where He is) and be joined to His wife (where she is) and the marriage of the Lamb will take place in the home of the bride.

"Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready."

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them....Rev 21:2-3

Hope that makes some sense as I've presented my view. Many may disagree, but it's pretty solidly clear in my spirit.

[mrgravyard49]

I say for those who believe the Church has to go thru the trib.. Go over to RR site and debate.. You will learn..
Go ahead I dare ya..
But no matter its all good..

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mr.Baldy wrote:

Sure, as Tevye has clearly pointed out....and thank you Tevye.


Tevye wrote:When is the Rapture?

What did Jesus say?



"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

So is this your solid scriptural proof? This passage says nothing about believers being caught up together, it merely says that they are gathered from ---wait, the four winds of heaven? So I would assume this means that they are already in heaven, in order to be gathered from it they would have had to have already arrived right?

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Are you speculating that the trumpet mentioned in Matthew 24:31 is the same trumpet that Paul speaks of in Thessalonians above? Are you speculating that the four winds of heaven really mean the four cardinal directions on earth? Are you speculating that the "elect" includes the church?

I respect your opinion regarding the interpretation of the Matthew passage, however I disagree that it points to the rapture that Paul speaks of. The passage in Thessalonians when looked at in the Greek implies that Christ Himself is the trumpet, He is the voice of the chief messenger, He is the trumpet. This is supported also by John's description of the voice that sounded like a trumpet in the revelation, that voice came from the Lord. The passage in Matthew also supports this idea- the command is from the Lord- it is His voice that sounds like the trumpet, however there is a difference in these descriptions of the gatherings- Matthew's passage says that the Lord sends forth His angels to do the gathering, while the passage in Thessalonians clearly says that Christ Himself does the gathering- believers meet Him, there is no mention of angels being sent to do the gathering, unless of course you speculate that angels are doing the gathering for the Lord in Paul's description. I don't know, but this doesn't necessarily sound like the same gathering to me.

I still however would like to hear your own evidence, you have pointed to Tevye's but still have not shared your own solid scriptural support that the rapture is not pre-trib. Or are you saying that what Tevye wrote is the same support you would point to? If so I am disappointed, as this to me is not so rock solid as you claimed.

RT

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Shortribber wrote:

The definition of "prevail" does not require infinite fulfillment as you suggest, it requires a timeframe God determines.
In the case of Dan.9:27 the determined time is seven years. I will here repeat what I have mentioned many times before regarding the difference between the seven year CONFIRMATION of .......THE .....Covenant and the everlasting COVENANT itself.

I was not the one who suggested it you were:

I see nothing in this definition to mean "establish'.....prevail means to prevail....if the covenant is broken, it does not prevail...that simple.

The determined, prophesied and unchanging WILL of God to CONFIRM His Abrahamic Covenant with.........MANY.....is seven years.

That is not what the prophecy says, you are speculating that the Abrahamic covenant is the covenant with many, are you also claiming that the prince who is to come is the Lord? I guess if you are then what you claim would make sense, however the passage seems more indicative that the prince who is to come is pointing to someone other than Messiah prince since in the passage He is cut off- meaning He dies. Then after He is cut off we have the people of the prince who is to come destroying the city and the temple, this we would likely agree on is the Romans, who burned Jerusalem and the Holy Temple in 70AD. Note they are the people of the prince who has not yet come. So the prince who is to come is from has as a people- the Romans, he strengthens a covenant with many for one week. The passage does not say what exactly this covenant is, however the OT does speak concerning a false peace, and a covenant with death. We can speculate that this covenant allows Israel to engage in offerings and sacrifices, but that is not necessarily so, they might already be performing them when this covenant is strengthened by the prince who is to come. Or the covenant might allow them to offer sacrifices,in any case that would be the Mosaic covenant not the Abrahamic.

A signature, handshake, verbal AGREEMENT, CONFIRMATION usually takes only a MOMENT of time............BUT.........WHAT is AGREED TO/ COVENANTED may last fifteen or thirty or even a lifetime until death or infinity.

Well yes, I agree, and the Israelites agreed to the covenant of the Law, this covenant by the way established the basis for a relationship between God and the nation of Israel. A covenant of any kind by nature establishes ground rules for a relationship between parties.

The waters "prevailed", they succeeded in OVERCOMING and overwhelming the earth unpaused and unhindered, thus fulfilling God's PROMISE to Noah.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:Again here you see iniquity prevailing,(same word) yet God forgiving. So does iniquity continue to prevail? No because God forgives. Again prevailing is a temporary state, not indefinite. (Thank the Lord for that!)



Yes, iniquity "prevails" until it's determined end......in the case of a Christian, at our new birth.

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:"establish a relationship with a person or group".

You asked me to show the use of the Hebrew word in other places in scripture, I merely did as you asked, the word for confirmed in the prophecy of Daniel is the same word used in both passages, in both cases the thing prevailing did not continue to prevail. What was accomplished is not relevant, what is relevant is that the word prevail does not mean it prevails indefinitely as you were implying. Also isn't it possible that the covenant in Daniel also prevails until it fulfills God's predetermined objective? Which is to bring about the repentance of Israel that they might fulfill the requirements of the prophecy?

I have a "relationship" with my children's schoolteacher and many other friends....but I don't have a prevailing/strengthened covenant with them. The scholarly definition you've provided lacks a great deal of the actual meaning of the words "Confirm THE Covenant" IMO.

[/quote]

You do have covenanted relationships that prevail such as with your homeowners insurer, your car insurer, your babysitter, your lawyer, your Doctor, dentist, maid, bank, credit card company etc.... They prevail because you hire them, you strengthen your relationship with them when you pay your bill on time, when you sign an agreement- you enter into a covenant with them- they do something for you and in return you do something for them. You also do in fact have a prevailing strengthened covenant with your child's schoolteacher, who as a public (or private) employee is bound by law to meet certain requirements, that teacher who works for you, a member of the public, is prevailed upon to meet those requirements. If that teacher fails to meet their job requirements you as a parent can act to do something about it. Even with your friends there is an unwritten covenant, you prevail upon one another to meet one another's needs, you strengthen that relationship when you invest in it. When one person fails to invest, the relationship becomes lopsided and doesn't grow, when one breaks one of the unwritten rules of friendship the relationship may be broken off.
Israel broke the law- the written rule/ covenant which severed their relationship with God.

The scholarly definition I provided is not my own, it is from Strong's Hebrew concordance, where do you get your definition from? Or are you subscribing your own meaning to the word?

RT

[Mr Baldy]

I still however would like to hear your own evidence

RT,

Honestly...... I am about Raptured out. Apparently you have more time on you hand than I do - and I really don't have the time to pull out Scripture on all of the many flaws that are in believing in a pre-tribulation rapture. I really do wish that there was one. All this idea has done is sold books to make men rich, and deceived those who want to believe this lie - in which admittedly, I was once a victim of. However, these endless debates still will go on and on, about a subject matter that has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation. Most often they are not to edify the Body of Christ - but more so to prove who is right in their theory. At the end of the day, who's really gonna care once we're in Heaven anyway?

I was reluctant to comment on this thread in the first place, as it never really solves anything. And countless threads on this subject, have provided arguments over and over again. Most are going to believe what they believe, no matter what Scripture says.

For me there is no longer any debate about the timing of the Rapture.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Honestly...... I am about Raptured out. Apparently you have more time on you hand than I do - and I really don't have the time to pull out Scripture on all of the many flaws that are in believing in a pre-tribulation rapture. I really do wish that there was one. All this idea has done is sold books to make men rich, and deceived those who want to believe this lie - in which admittedly, I was once a victim of. However, these endless debates still will go on and on, about a subject matter that has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation. Most often they are not to edify the Body of Christ - but more so to prove who is right in their theory. At the end of the day, who's really gonna care once we're in Heaven anyway?

I hear you brother- I am about raptured out too,

I don't think either of us is "deceived" though, only seeking clarification on an issue that is not clear and obvious in scripture. The truth is in Christ- however you look at it, as you said in the end when we are all standing before Christ, none of us will be saying "I told you so", instead we will be rejoicing together in one accord having finally arrived at the finish line.

RT

[watching]

Hi RT and shorttribber,

I have mentioned this before, in another thread, but I think it is worth repeating:

If you will notice, in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus refers to himself as a bridegroom.

Matthew 9:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?

15And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Mark 2:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

18And the disciples of John and of the Pharisees used to fast: and they come and say unto him, Why do the disciples of John and of the Pharisees fast, but thy disciples fast not?

19And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

20But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Luke 5:33-35

King James Version (KJV)

33And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?

34And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?

35But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.

Jesus also refers to His disciples, in the above passages, as "the children of the bridechamber."

Now, what's interesting, to me, about this, as you can see from the commentaries in the link below, is that during a Jewish marriage ceremony, the bride and groom would enter a BRIDECHAMBER and stay there for SEVEN DAYS, during which time, they would be attended to, by the "children of the BRIDECHAMBER."

http://bible.cc/matthew/9-15.htm

Also, according to the commentaries linked above, since the marriage ceremony was to be a time of joy and feasting, the children of the bridechamber were EXEMPT from having to do certain things DURING THOSE SEVEN DAYS of the bridechamber, such as fasting, mourning, praying, or even dwelling in booths during the Feast of Tabernacles.

So, it's interesting, to me, that Jesus likened the time, that He was spending with His disciples, to the SEVEN DAYS that the children of the bridechamber attend the bridegroom.

However, Jesus also made it clear, THAT THE DAY WOULD COME, WHEN THE BRIDEGROOM WOULD BE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM, and that, then they would fast.

Now, as I said before, this account is mentioned in all three of the following gospels: Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

However, although this account is not mentioned in the book of John, it is, nevertheless, in the book of John, that John the Baptist explains, when asked why Jesus was now baptizing, after just having been baptized by John the Baptist, that it was because JESUS WAS THE BRIDEGROOM, and that John the Baptist was just a friend of the bridegroom.

Here is what John the baptist said:

John 3:25-29

King James Version (KJV)

25Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

It was also in the gospel of John that John described Jesus' first miracle. (More on that later.)

But first, here is what John the Baptist said about Jesus in the other three gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke).

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

John 1:33
And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

This was also explained by Jesus in the book of Acts.

Acts 1:4-5

New International Version (NIV)

4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”

In order to understand the parallel between the Holy Spirit being given on the day of Pentecost (Shavuot) and the ten commandments being given on the day of Pentecost (Shavuot) in the book of Exodus, you may want to read the following commentary:

http://www.clarion-call.org/yeshua/feasts/shavuot/shavuot.htm

In any case, here is a summary:

First Pentecost....................................................Pentecost After Christ

The Commandments Given.......................................The Holy Spirit Given
Fifty days from the crossing of the Red Sea................Fifty days from the resurrection of Christ
Law of Yahweh written in Stone...............................Law of Yahweh written on our hearts
Three thousand slain...............................................Three thousand receive salvation
The letter of the Law..............................................The Spirit of the Law

Now, as I said before, it was also in the book of John that Jesus' first miracle was described.

In order to understand the importance of Jesus' first miracle, you may want to read the following commentaries:

http://carday.searchwarp.com/swa16642.htm

http://crossfaithministry.org/stone.html

Now, what is interesting to me about Jesus' first miracle, is that, it was sometime DURING A MARRIAGE CEREMONY, that Jesus took the responsibility of the BRIDEGROOM upon Himself, when He performed His first miracle, which was to turn the water (Old Covenant), that was used for purifying, into Wine (New Covenant).

So, the point that I am trying to make is this.

I think that it is clear from scripture that when Jesus came at His first coming, He came as the bridegroom for Israel.

Jesus likened the time, that the disciples were with Jesus, to the seven days that the children of the bridechamber are with the bridegroom.

However, Jesus made it clear that the day would come when He would be taken away.

We know from scripture that Jesus was taken away 3 1/2 years later.

So, although, Jesus came as the bridegroom for Israel, at His first coming, the marriage was not fully consummated because the bridegroom was taken away 3 1/2 years later, when He was rejected by Israel.

However, it was DURING this time, that Jesus made a New Covenant, which not only gave strength to the Old Covenant, by fulfilling all of it's requirements, but also surpassed the Old Covenant in glory, because it was founded on better promises.

Matthew 5:17

King James Version (KJV)

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Also, see Hebrews 8 and 2 Corinthians 3:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+8&version=KJV

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Corinthians+3&version=KJV

So, when Jesus made the New Covenant, He effectively expanded the marriage proposal that had been made by God to Israel, on Mt. Sinai, when God gave the ten commandments to Moses, to now, as a result of being rejected by Israel, to also include the gentiles. This is explained in Ephesians 3 and Romans 11 (see below), among other scriptures.

Of course, this was God's plan from the beginning, so that the whole world might be saved.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ephesians 3:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%203&version=KJV

Romans 11:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2011&version=KJV

So, I guess what I'm trying to say is this.

It seems to me that it was DURING the wedding, when Jesus had come as a BRIDEGROOM to Israel (physical Israel), at His first coming, that Jesus interlinked the ceremony to also include gentiles (Spiritual Israel).

Therefore, it seems very possible to me, that when Jesus returns as the bridegroom for Spiritual Israel, that it may very well be possible that, in the same manner, Christ might again interlink the ceremony to reinstate and, therefore, include and ultimately consummate the wedding with physical Israel.

Romans 11:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So, the main point that I would like to make is this.

I think that it is very possible, that just as Jesus honored the traditions of the Jewish wedding ceremony at His first coming.

I believe, that it may very well be likely, that Jesus will, once again, honor the traditions of the Jewish wedding ceremony at His second coming.

Here is some information about ancient Jewish wedding customs:

http://bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html

So, in a nutshell, this is one of the reasons for my hope in a pre-trib rapture.

But, as you can see, it has nothing to do with an anti-Christ seven year peace treaty, whether, or not, someone in the future might make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years, or not.

But, even if someone were to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years, I still would not see that as a fulfillment of prophecy, because, as far as I can see, there is absolutely no justification for attributing the "he" in Daniel 9:27 to the anti-Christ.

So, there is no reason for anyone to have to base their hope for a pre-trib rapture on an anti-Christ treaty, unless that is just something they want to do, for whatever reason.

So my point is this:

I think that it may very well be possible that there could possibly be a dual fulfillment of Daniel 9:27, but the dual fulfillment would NOT, imo, be Christ vs. anti-Christ, based on my reasoning........

The dual fulfillment, could, however, based on my reasoning, possibly be a fulfillment of Christ's first coming (split seven - covenant with Israel confirmed/to be confirmed) vs. Christ second coming (full seven - covenant with many to be confirmed, which would include a convergence with Israel in the second half.)

That's just how I'm understanding it. However, I am not saying that my view is the correct view.....ONLY GOD KNOWS HOW TO CORRECTLY INTERPRET THE SCRIPTURES........I am, however, just offering my view for the purpose of consideration, ONLY.

[Abiding in His Word]

Just a couple thoughts from the link provided....(http://bridalcovenant.com/wedding1.html)

Since bridegrooms typically came for their brides in the middle of the night, to "steal them away"(the groom would often come like a thief in the night, often around the midnight hour)

The bridegroom would abduct his bride secretly, like a thief at night and take her to the wedding chamber.

Where in scripture do we find this ancient wedding practice ordained, established, approved, or endorsed by God for marriage?

I'm asking because it completely contradicts the only one I see established in scripture and that is that the man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife. He does not secretly abduct her to take her to the home of his father and mother. Again, both Jesus and Paul reinforced this mandate for marriage.

While that may have been a tradition (although I need to see it in scripture) does not in any way endorse the practice nor obligate Jesus to contradict the one decree mandated in Genesis.

While this doesn't answer the question of timing, it does imho speak to the issue of building rapture theories based on questionable traditions. Jesus, Himself, reprimanded the practice of observing the traditions of man if they transgress the command of God.

Also for consideration regarding the rapture topic....

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Hi watching

there's a lot there in your post- unfortunately I do not have time to answer, I will be without internet access for a few days- so if the thread is still active I will respond then

RT

[Tevye]

First I'd like to say that I'm not very astute in debating this topic, but I do have an opinion. My premise for believing as I do is based on the basic foundational method of hermeneutics that scripture interprets scripture. That said, I find no place in scripture that alludes to believers being removed from the earth for any timeframe to avoid or escape tribulation.

While this may appear simplistic to some who gather scripture from a variety of places to support a rapture (meaning an escape to somewhere), I find nowhere that defines that place as one that will temporarily "house" believers only to return at the millennium and remain for the restoration of the earth per Rev. 21-22.

Hi AIHW, this sounds interesting.
Are you saying that there will be no rapture?
(or am I mis-reading what you are saying?)
Are you saying that Christians will be here through it all
(the seals, the trumpets and the bowls)
and then be changed here on Earth, or something else.....?? (when Christ comes)

You have me curious.
Could you explain the details?

[Jericho]

Where in scripture do we find this ancient wedding practice ordained, established, approved, or endorsed by God for marriage?

I'm asking because it completely contradicts the only one I see established in scripture and that is that the man leaves his father and mother and cleaves to his wife. He does not secretly abduct her to take her to the home of his father and mother. Again, both Jesus and Paul reinforced this mandate for marriage.

While that may have been a tradition (although I need to see it in scripture) does not in any way endorse the practice nor obligate Jesus to contradict the one decree mandated in Genesis.

While this doesn't answer the question of timing, it does imho speak to the issue of building rapture theories based on questionable traditions. Jesus, Himself, reprimanded the practice of observing the traditions of man if they transgress the command of God.

Also for consideration regarding the rapture topic....

Hi Abiding, perhaps the marriage story of Ruth and Boaz is more appropriate. Ruth being symbolic of the gentile church and Boaz being a type of Christ.

Excerpt:

Finally, the threshing floor (Ruth 3:2) could be taken as symbolizing tribulation in general, or more specifically the time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), Daniel's 70th Week, or the 7 year Tribulation outlined in the Book of Revelation. As described in the article The Harvest in Prophecy, it is important to make a distinction between the barley and wheat harvests. At the end of the barley harvest, in the middle of the night, Boaz suddenly finds Ruth at his feet. In Matthew 25 is the Parable of the Ten Virgins, a parable clearly relating to the second-coming of our LORD. In verse 6 we read:

And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

The wheat harvest in Israel comes after the barley harvest. One of the instruments used at the threshing floor to harvest the wheat was called a tribulum - the Latin word from which we get the English word tribulation. The tribulum was a wooden board used to crack open the tough fibrous outer shell of the wheat, a necessary step before later separating the wheat from the chaff. Just as Matthew 3:12 says:

His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

So where is Ruth to be found while all of this is going on? Already with Boaz! Yet more evidence that the Church will not be present during the final 7 years of history, she will be with her loving bridegroom, Jesus the Messiah! Come quickly LORD Jesus!

http://www.fulfilledprophecy.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=11911

Notice that Ruth is at the feet of Boaz during the time of the harvest threshing. I recommend reading it in it's entirety.

[Abiding in His Word]

Are you saying that there will be no rapture?
(or am I mis-reading what you are saying?)
Are you saying that Christians will be here through it all
(the seals, the trumpets and the bowls)
and then be changed here on Earth, or something else.....?? (when Christ comes)

Yes.

Scripture only speaks of Christ's coming when every eye (all the tribes of earth) will see Him. He comes in the clouds of the sky with power and glory. We will meet Him either to receive our rewards or for judgment.

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

It's difficult to “map” a sequence of events that involve the church when the church is not mentioned between our meeting Him as He arrives (Matt. 24; 1 Thes. 4) and Rev. 21 when the new earth has been prepared for the bride and God comes to dwell among us here.

Where we are must be here since no scripture relates 2 future comings; one where we disappear to somewhere (no recorded) and one when He returns to judge the world. As I said, there is no precedent in scripture that I'm aware of where God's people left the earth during any kind of tribulation or persecution.

1) When Pharaoh was persecuting the Hebrews, they lived through that. God delivered them, but not from the earth.
2) When Pharaoh killed the Hebrew babies, they lived through that. God delivered Moses from being killed, but not by removing him from the earth.
3) When God sent the angel of death plague to destroy the firstborn of Egyptians, the firstborn of the Israelites were protected (Passover) here on earth.
4) When the Hebrews were being persecuted, God provided a way out of Egypt, but not from the earth.
5) While they wandered through the desert, He allowed them to experience great hardship but provided food and water (sustenance) during their 40 yrs.
6) When God was ready to destroy the earth with a flood, he protected Noah and his family here on earth.

We could probably list other records of God's people being persecuted or going through tribulation but none involve a removal from the earth.

If we can agree that the only mandate for marriage made by God in Genesis, and reiterated by Jesus and Paul, then we must believe that when the Bridegroom comes for the bride, He will leave His Father and come to earth to cleave to her here on the restored earth which will be prepared for the marriage. And without a scriptural precedence for removal from the earth during a time of judgement and/or persecution, I personally cannot build such a doctrine based on two words in one verse (1 Thess. 4:17) Further, there is no scripture that states believers will be going to heaven for an indeterminate length of time to return to the earth for our final destination.

When believers create a "string" of scripture to try to support a theory, they arrive at something they've designed in order to arrive at a desired end.

Hope I haven't offended anyone, and as I said, I'm not good at "mapping" the end-time scenario. I only know what I don't see in scripture and that's difficult to relate....how do you make a list of things that didn't happen or don't support a theory if there are none?

[Jericho]

1) When Pharaoh was persecuting the Hebrews, they lived through that. God delivered them, but not from the earth.
2) When Pharaoh killed the Hebrew babies, they lived through that. God delivered Moses from being killed, but not by removing him from the earth.
3) When God sent the angel of death plague to destroy the firstborn of Egyptians, the firstborn of the Israelites were protected (Passover) here on earth.
4) When the Hebrews were being persecuted, God provided a way out of Egypt, but not from the earth.
5) While they wandered through the desert, He allowed them to experience great hardship but provided food and water (sustenance) during their 40 yrs.
6) When God was ready to destroy the earth with a flood, he protected Noah and his family here on earth.

One thing all of those things have in common is God's people were expect from his judgements. Therefore we see a distinction between tribulation in general and great-tribulation, which concerns God's judgement. In Revelation we see 144,000 sealed and protected, the two witness are protected, and the remnant of Jews who flee to the desert are protected but the gentile Saint's are overcome by the AC. I see no protection or way out for them, so if the church does go thru the tribulation then God is acting out of character. I would also add there have already been two types of raptures in the past with Enoch and Elijah.

Hope I haven't offended anyone, and as I said, I'm not good at "mapping" the end-time scenario. I only know what I don't see in scripture and that's difficult to relate....how do you make a list of things that didn't happen or don't support a theory if there are none?

No offense here, you have to have a bit of a thick skin to venture into the debate forums anyways. It's okay to disagree on rapture timing and other such trivial things because it's non essential to the gospel. The main thing is we agree on the important stuff, like salvation doctrine.

[Tevye]

Scripture only speaks of Christ's coming when every eye (all the tribes of earth) will see Him. He comes in the clouds of the sky with power and glory. We will meet Him either to receive our rewards or for judgment.

Well Daniel 12 does say:

"many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

You might be onto something there?

Are you thinking that some believers will be protected through it all
or on some level experience suffering as did the 1st century Christians had
and those who survive it all and "are alive and remain" at the coming of the Lord
will see Him appear and come down to the Earth, and then they will be a transformed
together with those who will rise up from being dead in the earth? On a ceratin day?
When it all is said and done, so to speak? No pre-trib, No mid-trib, no post-trib, no pre-wrath?
Just an appearing of the Lord and then a meeting or a gathering here on the earth?

Heavy. That is, in the light of the trumpets and the bowls, it's going to be .... on earth.

[Abiding in His Word]

I see no protection or way out for them, so if the church does go thru the tribulation then God is acting out of character.

The question is, do you see a precedent anywhere in scripture where God provides an escape "out of the earth" for His people or does He provide for them through tribulation and/or persecution?

Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain. Isaiah 26:20-21

Can God not protect believers in safety during the time of judgment?

I would also add there have already been two types of raptures in the past with Enoch and Elijah.

To escape judgement, tribulation, or persecution?

[Tevye]

Hello A.I.H.W.

But what of...

"...we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep,
that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died
and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,
will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command,
with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air,..."

...in your perspective when do you think this will happen
in relation to the events of Revelation?

I think I can see where you are coming from
and I have no judgement of what you are saying,
I'm intrigued and curious.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him..."

Would you say that the above Apostle Paul's message is connected to Jesus' message here?

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man
coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out
his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect..."

Is it the same gathering?

Is the apostle's message in 2 Thessalonians 2 connected
to the message he gave in 1 Thessalonians 4?

If they are all connected would believers meet Him in the air
(during His appearing) at some time prior to Him setting His feet on the Earth?
Does Yeshua give us a sign to look for His appearing in relation to the events of the Revelation?
A sign to know when we will meet Him up in the air?

[mark s]

I see no protection or way out for them, so if the church does go thru the tribulation then God is acting out of character.

The question is, do you see a precedent anywhere in scripture where God provides an escape "out of the earth" for His people or does He provide for them through tribulation and/or persecution?

Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while until indignation runs its course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain. Isaiah 26:20-21

Can God not protect believers in safety during the time of judgment?

I would also add there have already been two types of raptures in the past with Enoch and Elijah.

To escape judgement, tribulation, or persecution?

I would assert that the rapture is not to escape judgment (the church is not judged, Jesus received our judgment), tribulation (all believers experience tribulation), or persecution (all believers are subject to persecution).

If that were the case, then God would have to rapture us all, right after we were born again. I would assert that God has a certain program for this age, and this is simply His program.

It's like when the angel seals the 144,000 of Israel. That will be a new thing, something that is for a particular time. Not that this will be the only way people get saved, just that this is His program for that particular time.

Another example is the dead who resurrected when Jesus died. God has established certain things to happen at certain times.

imo . . . fwiw . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Jericho]

The question is, do you see a precedent anywhere in scripture where God provides an escape "out of the earth" for His people or does He provide for them through tribulation and/or persecution?

You could say Noah was removed from the earth (got on the arc) before the flood and Lot was removed from Sodom before judgement. Regardless you won't see it because the rapture is a unique event, like the tribulation. Jesus said it is a time "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21)

Can God not protect believers in safety during the time of judgment?

Certainly, but as mentioned above except for a few select Jewish individuals I don't see in scripture where gentile believers are protected during the tribulation. If anything it's the opposite.

"It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (Rev 13:7)"

""I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, (Dan 7:21)"

God's modus operandi is to protect his own during judgement, so why would He protect those Jews but not his bride?

To escape judgement, tribulation, or persecution?

My point is that the concept of a rapture is there, Enoch and Elijah were caught up without dying. Which kinda begs the question why were they caught up in the first place? As you said it wasn't because of judgement, tribulation, or persecution. So why? Perhaps it was to foreshadow a coming event.

It is like when God instructed Mosses to set up bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Num 21:5-7). That really sounds odd until you get to John 3:14 and you realize it was foreshadowing Jesus "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up".

[Abiding in His Word]

Hello Tevye,

Is it the same gathering?

Yes, unless you believe scripture speaks of two more comings. When Jesus comes back, the emphasis is on Him after all. Right? Every eye will see Him. It's all about Him. He's coming!

If they are all connected would believers meet Him in the air
(during His appearing) at some time prior to Him setting His feet on the Earth?
Does Yeshua give us a sign to look for His appearing in relation to the events of the Revelation?
A sign to know when we will meet Him up in the air?

Not sure I understand this question. Do you mean signs other than Matt. 24, Luke 21, and Mark13? Signs and seasons we are given: wars and rumors of wars, uprisings, earthquakes, natural disasters, lawlessness, false prophets false teachers, false messiahs, persecution, apostasy, etc.

..... exact timing we are not given.

[Abiding in His Word]

You could say Noah was removed from the earth (got on the arc) before the flood and Lot was removed from Sodom before judgement.

But neither left the earth. They weren't removed from this earth.

Regardless you won't see it because the rapture is a unique event, like the tribulation. Jesus said it is a time "such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be." (Mat 24:21)

I don't disagree that the tribulation will be as Jesus said. But if we are to believe there is a one-time event of this magnitude with no precedence in scripture and teach it as a solid doctrine, we have a problem imo. Major truths can be found in harmony with the rest of scripture. If all we find in scripture is the translation of Enoch and Elijah apart from tribulation, persecution or judgment, does that equate to the removal of believers from the earth during a time of tribulation and persecution? Perhaps they didn't die because their ministry is not finished?

Where do we find scriptures that refer to such a rapture from the earth, that records where believers go after the removal, and when they return to their final destination on the restored earth? I don't find these scriptures.

[Jericho]

But if we are to believe there is a one-time event of this magnitude with no precedence in scripture and teach it as a solid doctrine, we have a problem imo.

We can use that same argument with Jesus can't we? I can't think of a bigger one-time event yet he isn't explicitly named in the Old Testament. There was no precedence for a virgin birth. What scriptures there are only give veiled clues. Those prior to Jesus would really have to do there homework and connect the dots to establish some sort of doctrine, of course it's easier for us with hindsight.

Perhaps they didn't die because their ministry is not finished?

Possibly.

[Tevye]

Hello Tevye,

Is it the same gathering?

Yes, unless you believe scripture speaks of two more comings. When Jesus comes back, the emphasis is on Him after all. Right? Every eye will see Him. It's all about Him. He's coming!

Hi.
Yes, for sure, It's all about Him.
For His glory!

I'm sold on one appearing.

When would you say the appearing happens?
Prior to the time He initiates His wrath or after?

What would you say happens during His appearing?
When the angels perform the gathering.
Do we go up to meet Him in the clouds
and as He is descending towards the earth
turn around and immediately go down with Him?

Or would we go up at the begining of His appearing
be delievered into heaven, in the place He has prepared for us
while during His appearing as the bridge or door between heaven and earth is still open
we are up there and He is still up there as judgement (trumpets) and wrath (bowls) are poured out?
Still one appearing, just spread out over a longer period of time?

If they are all connected would believers meet Him in the air
(during His appearing) at some time prior to Him setting His feet on the Earth?
Does Yeshua give us a sign to look for His appearing in relation to the events of the Revelation?
A sign to know when we will meet Him up in the air?

Not sure I understand this question. Do you mean signs other than Matt. 24, Luke 21, and Mark13? Signs and seasons we are given: wars and rumors of wars, uprisings, earthquakes, natural disasters, lawlessness, false prophets false teachers, false messiahs, persecution, apostasy, etc.

..... exact timing we are not given.

Just one specific sign
so we will know for sure it is the moment He is to appear.

A single yet complex sign that will validate the moment of His impending arrival
and though we aren't given the day or hour, for when we will see it (this sign)
we will know as it is happening, that Jesus is coming at this moment in time.