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Unreported News, Commentary, Resources and Discussion of Bible Prophecy
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by shorttribber on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:17 am
by lamb7 on Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:38 am
2 Thessalonians 2:5-12
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [a]coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and [c]signs and false wonders, 10 and with [d]all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [e]will send upon them [f]a deluding influence so that they will believe [g]what is false, 12 in order that they all may be [h]judged who did not believe the truth, but [i]took pleasure in wickedness.
[b]Mark 13:19-20
19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [b]elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
1 Samuel 25:26
“Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, since the LORD has restrained you from shedding blood, and from avenging yourself by your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek evil against my lord, be as Nabal.
1 Samuel 25:26
26Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal.
Ezekiel 31:15
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
1 Samuel 25:34
34 Nevertheless, as the LORD God of Israel lives, who has restrained me from harming you, unless you had come quickly to meet me, surely there would not have been left to Nabal until the morning light as much as one [a]male.”
Job 9
1 Then Job [a]answered,
2 “In truth I know that this is so;
But how can a man be in the right [b]before God?
3 “If one wished to dispute with Him,
He could not answer Him once in a thousand times.
4 “Wise in heart and mighty in strength,
Who has [c]defied Him [d]without harm?
5 “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how,
When He overturns them in His anger;
6 Who shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
7 Who commands the sun [e]not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;
8 Who alone stretches out the heavens
And [f]tramples down the waves of the sea;
9 Who makes the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
10 Who does great things, [g]unfathomable,
And wondrous works without number.
11 “Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him;
Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him.
12 “Were He to snatch away, who could restrain Him?
Who could say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’
13 “God will not turn back His anger;
Beneath Him crouch the helpers of Rahab.
14 “How then can I [h]answer Him,
And choose my words [i]before Him?
15 “For though I were right, I could not [j]answer;
I would have to implore the mercy of my judge.
16 “If I called and He answered me,
I could not believe that He was listening to my voice.
17 “For He bruises me with a tempest
And multiplies my wounds without cause.
18 “He will not allow me to get my breath,
But saturates me with bitterness.
19 “If it is a matter of power, behold, He is the strong one!
And if it is a matter of justice, who can summon [k]Him?
20 “Though I am righteous, my mouth will condemn me;
Though I am guiltless, He will declare me guilty.
21 “I am guiltless;
I do not take notice of myself;
I despise my life.
22 “It is all one; therefore I say,
‘He destroys the guiltless and the wicked.’
23 “If the scourge kills suddenly,
He mocks the despair of the innocent.
24 “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked;
He covers the faces of its judges.
If it is not He, then who is it?
25 “Now my days are swifter than a runner;
They flee away, they see no good.
26 “They slip by like reed boats,
Like an eagle that swoops on [l]its prey.
27 “Though I say, ‘I will forget my complaint,
I will leave off my sad countenance and be cheerful,’
28 I am afraid of all my pains,
I know that You will not acquit me.
29 “I am accounted wicked,
Why then should I toil in vain?
30 “If I should wash myself with snow
And cleanse my hands with lye,
31 Yet You would plunge me into the pit,
And my own clothes would abhor me.
32 “For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him,
That we may go to [m]court together.
33 “There is no umpire between us,
Who may lay his hand upon us both.
34 “Let Him remove His rod from me,
And let not dread of Him terrify me.
35 “Then I would speak and not fear Him;
But I am not like that in myself.
Isaiah 23:9-11
9 The LORD of hosts has planned it, to defile the pride of all beauty,
To despise all the honored of the earth.
10 [a]Overflow your land like the Nile, O daughter of Tarshish,
There is no more [b]restraint.
11 He has stretched His hand out over the sea,
He has made the kingdoms tremble;
The LORD has given a command concerning Canaan to demolish its strongholds.
Isaiah 42:13-15
13 The LORD will go forth like a warrior,
He will arouse His zeal like a man of war.
He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail against His enemies.
14 “I have kept silent for a long time,
I have kept still and restrained Myself.
Now like a woman in labor I will groan,
I will both gasp and pant.
15 “I will lay waste the mountains and hills
And wither all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers into coastlands
And dry up the ponds.
Isaiah 48:8-10
8 “You have not heard, you have not known.
Even from long ago your ear has not been open,
Because I knew that you would deal very treacherously;
And you have been called a [a]rebel from [b]birth.
9 “For the sake of My name I delay My wrath,
And for My praise I restrain it for you,
In order not to cut you off.
10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
2 Corinthians 6:11-13
11 Our mouth [a]has spoken freely to you, O Corinthians, our heart is opened wide. 12 You are not restrained [b]by us, but you are restrained in your own [c]affections. 13 Now in a like exchange—I speak as to children—open wide to us also.
Isaiah 64:11-12
11 Our holy and beautiful house,
Where our fathers praised You,
Has been burned by fire;
And all our precious things have become a ruin.
12 Will You restrain Yourself at these things, O LORD?
Will You keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?
Lamentations 2:8
8 The LORD [a]determined to destroy
The wall of the daughter of Zion.
He has stretched out a line,
He has not restrained His hand from [b]destroying,
And He has caused rampart and wall to lament;
They have languished together.
by benny balerio on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:01 pm
lamb7 wrote:Restrainer2 Thessalonians 2:5-12
5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His [a]coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and [c]signs and false wonders, 10 and with [d]all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God [e]will send upon them [f]a deluding influence so that they will believe [g]what is false, 12 in order that they all may be [h]judged who did not believe the truth, but [i]took pleasure in wickedness.
Comment:
Who is the only one who has the power to restrain evil? Who can hold back the full force of evil that would have swallowed up all faith and left no soul alive to whom Jesus Christ could come back to… Who is it that we do know: Our God.[b]Mark 13:19-20
19 For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will. 20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [b]elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Comment:
There is no angel more powerful than God Almighty, and we the Church, although His children, are still a sinful lot; how dare we think we have the power to stop evil when it is all around us still and has been for over 2000 years. What makes us believe we could make a dent during that most horrendous time?
It is God who hardens hearts by giving over those who oppose His will to the full length of their opposition, it is He that allows men’s evil to abound so that He is glorified through us when our light shines out despite this evil. The free will of men must be allowed to choose between both good and evil and so some evil must be allowed, yet restrained enough to allow life to flourish within the realm of Satan and his minions.
Only during the Tribulation will all who fail to come to Jesus Christ truly see what the world will be like without the restraining hand of God so that He will be justified in His wrath and Satan will be seen by all fully naked, unrestrained in all his evil ways and seen for what he truly is. To give this power to the Church, to whom many themselves will fall away and be deceived, such power is beyond reason and logic. Only the hand of God, through His Holy Spirit could restrain evil in any form; to give this power to any other besides Him is foolishness and lies. Have we forgotten who we worship?1 Samuel 25:26
“Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, since the LORD has restrained you from shedding blood, and from avenging yourself by your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek evil against my lord, be as Nabal.
1 Samuel 25:26
26Now therefore, my lord, as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, seeing the LORD hath withholden thee from coming to shed blood, and from avenging thyself with thine own hand, now let thine enemies, and they that seek evil to my lord, be as Nabal.
Ezekiel 31:15
15Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
1 Samuel 25:34
34 Nevertheless, as the LORD God of Israel lives, who has restrained me from harming you, unless you had come quickly to meet me, surely there would not have been left to Nabal until the morning light as much as one [a]male.”Job 9
1 Then Job [a]answered,
2 “In truth I know that this is so;
But how can a man be in the right [b]before God?
3 “If one wished to dispute with Him,
He could not answer Him once in a thousand times.
4 “Wise in heart and mighty in strength,
Who has [c]defied Him [d]without harm?
5 “It is God who removes the mountains, they know not how,
When He overturns them in His anger;
6 Who shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
7 Who commands the sun [e]not to shine,
And sets a seal upon the stars;
8 Who alone stretches out the heavens
And [f]tramples down the waves of the sea;
9 Who makes the Bear, Orion and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
10 Who does great things, [g]unfathomable,
And wondrous works without number.
11 “Were He to pass by me, I would not see Him;
Were He to move past me, I would not perceive Him.
12 “Were He to snatch away, who could restrain Him?
Who could say to Him, ‘What are You doing?’
13 “God will not turn back His anger;
Beneath Him crouch the helpers of Rahab.
14 “How then can I [h]answer Him,
And choose my words [i]before Him?
15 “For though I were right, I could not [j]answer;
I would have to implore the mercy of my judge.
16 “If I called and He answered me,
I could not believe that He was listening to my voice.
17 “For He bruises me with a tempest
And multiplies my wounds without cause.
18 “He will not allow me to get my breath,
But saturates me with bitterness.
19 “If it is a matter of power, behold, He is the strong one!
And if it is a matter of justice, who can summon [k]Him?
20 “Though I am righteous, my mouth will condemn me;
Though I am guiltless, He will declare me guilty.
21 “I am guiltless;
I do not take notice of myself;
I despise my life.
22 “It is all one; therefore I say,
‘He destroys the guiltless and the wicked.’
23 “If the scourge kills suddenly,
He mocks the despair of the innocent.
24 “The earth is given into the hand of the wicked;
He covers the faces of its judges.
If it is not He, then who is it?
25 “Now my days are swifter than a runner;
They flee away, they see no good.
26 “They slip by like reed boats,
Like an eagle that swoops on [l]its prey.
27 “Though I say, ‘I will forget my complaint,
I will leave off my sad countenance and be cheerful,’
28 I am afraid of all my pains,
I know that You will not acquit me.
29 “I am accounted wicked,
Why then should I toil in vain?
30 “If I should wash myself with snow
And cleanse my hands with lye,
31 Yet You would plunge me into the pit,
And my own clothes would abhor me.
32 “For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him,
That we may go to [m]court together.
33 “There is no umpire between us,
Who may lay his hand upon us both.
34 “Let Him remove His rod from me,
And let not dread of Him terrify me.
35 “Then I would speak and not fear Him;
But I am not like that in myself.
Comment:
Who let down His hand to allow Job to be tempted and almost destroyed? Who allowed Job’s family to be destroyed, unattended, unrestrained? It was not Michael, it was not the church, it was God Almighty. What happened to Job is a perfect example of what will happen during the Tribulation. God’s hand will drop to His side and Satan will be unrestrained to test the whole of the earth, especially God’s children. It is a parallel so apparent and proof positive that God is the only one who restrains evil or allows it to flourish for His own purposes and will. He is the only one who could leave men to their own devices to draw the line in the sand as to who belongs to Christ and who does not.Isaiah 23:9-11
9 The LORD of hosts has planned it, to defile the pride of all beauty,
To despise all the honored of the earth.
10 [a]Overflow your land like the Nile, O daughter of Tarshish,
There is no more [b]restraint.
11 He has stretched His hand out over the sea,
He has made the kingdoms tremble;
The LORD has given a command concerning Canaan to demolish its strongholds.
Isaiah 42:13-15
13 The LORD will go forth like a warrior,
He will arouse His zeal like a man of war.
He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail against His enemies.
14 “I have kept silent for a long time,
I have kept still and restrained Myself.
Now like a woman in labor I will groan,
I will both gasp and pant.
15 “I will lay waste the mountains and hills
And wither all their vegetation;
I will make the rivers into coastlands
And dry up the ponds.
Isaiah 48:8-10
8 “You have not heard, you have not known.
Even from long ago your ear has not been open,
Because I knew that you would deal very treacherously;
And you have been called a [a]rebel from [b]birth.
9 “For the sake of My name I delay My wrath,
And for My praise I restrain it for you,
In order not to cut you off.
10 “Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.
2 Corinthians 6:11-13
11 Our mouth [a]has spoken freely to you, O Corinthians, our heart is opened wide. 12 You are not restrained [b]by us, but you are restrained in your own [c]affections. 13 Now in a like exchange—I speak as to children—open wide to us also.
Isaiah 64:11-12
11 Our holy and beautiful house,
Where our fathers praised You,
Has been burned by fire;
And all our precious things have become a ruin.
12 Will You restrain Yourself at these things, O LORD?
Will You keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?
Lamentations 2:8
8 The LORD [a]determined to destroy
The wall of the daughter of Zion.
He has stretched out a line,
He has not restrained His hand from [b]destroying,
And He has caused rampart and wall to lament;
They have languished together.
by benny balerio on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:38 pm
by mark s on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:40 pm
morpheus wrote:I don't want to get sidetracked on the Angel of the Lord thing. I am not saying they can't be God, just some may not be.
As for the Septuagint, there are two different versions that I recall. I think the translations are helpful. They use the word rise up for amad. However, I think Rev 12 gives us the most detail concerning this rising up or amad, in that Michael goes to heaven and wages war on Satan and kicks him out. So it seems Michael rises up from from the earth, goes to heaven and wages war. Daniel is the less clear, Revelation 12 the most clear.
by mark s on Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:42 pm
by morpheus on Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:53 pm
You seem to be presupposing some locality that takes Michael away from the earth, but Scripture gives us many indications that heaven is a different continuum, and that beings can be present in both places at the same time.
This tells us what the ancient Jews understood Daniel to be saying. But it does not mean that he ascends into the heavens. That's one of the beautiful things about Greek, it is so very specific.
The question here, to me, is this, does Michael stop protecting Israel? Or does he continue to protect Israel? The Bible says he's the protector of Israel.
by shorttribber on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:03 pm
morpheus wrote:Rev 12 tells us Michael goes to heaven and wars in heaven against Satan. This war takes place at the exact same time as Daniel 12:1. Therefore Dan 12 rise up must mean Michael rises up to heaven. The more clear interprets the less clear. There is no contradiction with the Greek here. It is so specific and harmonious.
by mark s on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:15 pm
morpheus wrote:You seem to be presupposing some locality that takes Michael away from the earth, but Scripture gives us many indications that heaven is a different continuum, and that beings can be present in both places at the same time.
I'd be interested in seeing the Scripture support on "Many indications that beings can be present in both places at the same time" I would think the evidence is for the opposite.
This tells us what the ancient Jews understood Daniel to be saying. But it does not mean that he ascends into the heavens. That's one of the beautiful things about Greek, it is so very specific.
Rev 12 tells us Michael goes to heaven and wars in heaven against Satan. This war takes place at the exact same time as Daniel 12:1. Therefore Dan 12 rise up must mean Michael rises up to heaven. The more clear interprets the less clear. There is no contradiction with the Greek here. It is so specific and harmonious.
The question here, to me, is this, does Michael stop protecting Israel? Or does he continue to protect Israel? The Bible says he's the protector of Israel.
Michael stops protecting Israel otherwise why would Israel be facing such a hard time in the Great Trib? That is why Israel gets hammered. You have to admit that Israel gets hammered in the Great Trib, right? Michael, who is normally the protector of Israel, is recalled to heaven to make war against Satan. Satan gets kicked out of heaven and goes to where Michael is no longer.
Ultimately, of Israel, it is the 144,000 that escape Satan's wrath and are specially sealed against the wrath of God. They are the remnant of Israel that are protected. This is the specific info given in Scripture. All the other less detail references need to be interpreted in light of this specific data.
Why not by Michael? What rules that out? Considering that Scripture tells us he's the one specifically who stands for Israel?So Israel both gets hammered overall and a remnant get protected. (but not by Michael) Again the more detail interprets the less detailed.
by shorttribber on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:20 pm
by Jay Ross on Sat Jul 16, 2011 4:12 pm
by The Orange Mailman on Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:17 pm
Hi OM,
I've not read all your posts . . . could you give me in a nutshell the passages that show this connection? How do we know the 10 nation alliance won't exist before Satan is cast to the earth?
by watching on Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:30 pm
shorttribber wrote:This is an open question to all but primarily to Mark and Watching since they are the Greek grammar folks.
Can the "he" that "letteth"/"restrains" refer to more than one? As antichrist is referred to in some cases by some folks as a succession of antichrists until the final one.
In other words, could the "he" refer to the Holy Spirit, Michael, human government and the church? Can the "he" be used in the same sense as "only he who knows to do good and does it not to him it is sin"?
just asking
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
24:13 ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος οὗτος σωθήσεται
by watching on Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:43 pm
2 Thessalonians 2:6
King James Version (KJV)
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2 Thessalonians 2:7
King James Version (KJV)
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
by mark s on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:13 pm
The Orange Mailman wrote:Hi OM,
I've not read all your posts . . . could you give me in a nutshell the passages that show this connection? How do we know the 10 nation alliance won't exist before Satan is cast to the earth?
Hello Mark-
I have read all of your posts on this thread in their entirety. In fact, I've read just about every post on this thread since I want to have meaningful dialogue with others. I will wait until you read my posts so you understand what you are responding to.
But I haven't backed the assertion that the ten nation alliance rises at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. But Revelation 12-13 make it clear that the beast rises out of the sea, then the beast has authority for 42 months. Notice that in Revelation 12 as the dragon is cast out from heaven at the dawn of time, that the authority is vested in the seven heads of the dragon. This is signified by the seven diadems on the seven heads. Now when the beast rises out of the sea, there is a significant change. Now the authority is vested in the ten horns (the ten kings) because the diadems are now on the ten horns.
I'm sure that you put time, effort, and thought into your posts; and I do the same. Please take the time to read and understand my positions so that we can have some good conversation.
Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13
-The Orange Mailman
by The Orange Mailman on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:15 pm
by watching on Sat Jul 16, 2011 7:50 pm
I'm following ESV unless a good reason can be given to use another wording.
by morpheus on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:23 pm
Ephesians 2, for instance. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Colossians 3, we are hid with Christ in God. Christ is in heaven. Christ also lives in us.
And are all the Israelites 'getting hammered'? Do you in fact think that there will be those in the wilderness not 'getting hammered'? If so, why are they not? What could account for that?
Why not by Michael? What rules that out? Considering that Scripture tells us he's the one specifically who stands for Israel?
I think that the reason why many here will attempt to refute that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer is because,....it reveals a pre-trib rapture and destroys their views that are contrary to a pre-trib rapture.
I once though prophecy was so hard to understand but it was only because I was making so many mistakes. Once I found the combination to the lock, things got a lot easier and clearer. In fact, down right simple. If you find prophecy hard, then you are trying to put the puzzle pieces together with the wrong box top. The Bible is not muddy; only people's false conclusions are muddy. It is not rocket science.
That is not to say we can know all the answers to every question. Scripture does not give us all the answers to every question we might have. But we should be able to find the answers to the questions we need. We need to follow conclusions to their proper point and pursue no further. The rest we just have to wait and see.
Jesus commanded we watch. It is not optional. He listed signs in the Olivet DIscourse. At the very least, make a list from the Olivet Discourse and compare it to the evening news. When things happen, check the item off the list. The beginning of sorrows is nothing new. That stuff has been going on for 2000 years. But when Jerusalem is surrounded, the AoD happens, the Great Trib happens, the apostasy, the persecution, the sun and moon go dark, then you know it is time. Michael is coming with his angels. See the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds of glory. Look up for your redemption draws nigh.
That is eschatology in a nutshell. It really is that simple.
prophecy is still not as "easy" as you have come to believe.
by mark s on Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:49 pm
morpheus wrote:(I am answering a bunch of people all at once. Please pick and choose)
When passages are equivocal, you must look elsewhere for the solution. Picking a best translation is not going to solve the questions. I think there are other passages of Scripture that are more detailed that explain what is happening in 2 Thess. 2. One should go to these more detailed passages to interpret the less clear.
(I keep riding this horse because it is the right one to ride. Not that I don't like Greek or Hebrew study.)Ephesians 2, for instance. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Colossians 3, we are hid with Christ in God. Christ is in heaven. Christ also lives in us.
I think these passages do not support what you think. I see "being seated with Christ in the heavenlies" as we have a seat at Christ's table reserved in our name. No strange interpretation needed here.
As for being hid with Christ in God, I see this a metaphor, not some new doctrine in how to we can be in two places at one time. I still maintain Michael is not in two places at one time.
And are all the Israelites 'getting hammered'? Do you in fact think that there will be those in the wilderness not 'getting hammered'? If so, why are they not? What could account for that?
Two wings of an eagle - whatever that means. However, I do not interpret the eagle as being Michael or the HS - especially not Michael since he was just mentioned a few verses before. Satan first tries a flood but the earth opens up - again not Michael. Then Satan seeks to make war against all the saints. How successful he is remains to be seen.
by shorttribber on Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:55 am
morpheus wrote:The question of prophecy is not just what does the Bible say, but why and what are we suppose to do about it. That is why I stated my summary of eschatology. Do people agree with the summary? If not, then state your own summary. I would love to see it.
by benny balerio on Sun Jul 17, 2011 2:54 am
morpheus wrote:(I am answering a bunch of people all at once. Please pick and choose)
When passages are equivocal, you must look elsewhere for the solution. Picking a best translation is not going to solve the questions. I think there are other passages of Scripture that are more detailed that explain what is happening in 2 Thess. 2. One should go to these more detailed passages to interpret the less clear.
(I keep riding this horse because it is the right one to ride. Not that I don't like Greek or Hebrew study.)Ephesians 2, for instance. We are seated with Christ in the heavenlies. Colossians 3, we are hid with Christ in God. Christ is in heaven. Christ also lives in us.
I think these passages do not support what you think. I see "being seated with Christ in the heavenlies" as we have a seat at Christ's table reserved in our name. No strange interpretation needed here. As for being hid with Christ in God, I see this a metaphor, not some new doctrine in how to we can be in two places at one time. I still maintain Michael is not in two places at one time.And are all the Israelites 'getting hammered'? Do you in fact think that there will be those in the wilderness not 'getting hammered'? If so, why are they not? What could account for that?
Two wings of an eagle - whatever that means. However, I do not interpret the eagle as being Michael or the HS - especially not Michael since he was just mentioned a few verses before. Satan first tries a flood but the earth opens up - again not Michael. Then Satan seeks to make war against all the saints. How successful he is remains to be seen.Why not by Michael? What rules that out? Considering that Scripture tells us he's the one specifically who stands for Israel?
Michael is the one who stands for Israel. But where is he making his stand? At the midpoint, in heaven. Why rule out Michael as the one who defends Israel in Rev 12? Because scripture tells us Michael is in heaven waging war on Satan. The two wings of an eagle are the one's who help Israel. Then the earth itself opens up. Maybe Michael does follow Satan immediately to earth and keeps up the defense. But there is no detailed Scripture evidence. Only the less detailed Daniel 12:1. Again Rev 12 is more detailed. The detailed should interpret the less detailed.I think that the reason why many here will attempt to refute that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer is because,....it reveals a pre-trib rapture and destroys their views that are contrary to a pre-trib rapture.
I still haven't seen any valid proof here of the HS as restrainer. If I missed it, I'm sorry. Even if the HS was the restrainer, I still see the restrainer getting removed at the AoD in 2 Thess 2. Therefore it couldn't be used as proof the pre-trib position at all. Mid-trib maybe, but not pre-trib.
I wrote...I once though prophecy was so hard to understand but it was only because I was making so many mistakes. Once I found the combination to the lock, things got a lot easier and clearer. In fact, down right simple. If you find prophecy hard, then you are trying to put the puzzle pieces together with the wrong box top. The Bible is not muddy; only people's false conclusions are muddy. It is not rocket science.
That is not to say we can know all the answers to every question. Scripture does not give us all the answers to every question we might have. But we should be able to find the answers to the questions we need. We need to follow conclusions to their proper point and pursue no further. The rest we just have to wait and see.
Jesus commanded we watch. It is not optional. He listed signs in the Olivet DIscourse. At the very least, make a list from the Olivet Discourse and compare it to the evening news. When things happen, check the item off the list. The beginning of sorrows is nothing new. That stuff has been going on for 2000 years. But when Jerusalem is surrounded, the AoD happens, the Great Trib happens, the apostasy, the persecution, the sun and moon go dark, then you know it is time. Michael is coming with his angels. See the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds of glory. Look up for your redemption draws nigh.
That is eschatology in a nutshell. It really is that simple.
Somebody else wrote in responseprophecy is still not as "easy" as you have come to believe.
Prophecy is easy for me. Like I said, it wasn't always that way. I had been taught a lot of wrong things and had to work through all this garbage first. But prophecy is easy now for me. I also know other people who feel the same as me, so it is not just a me who feels this way. If you think prophecy is hard, then maybe you are still working it all out and haven't gotten your synthesis complete yet. No worries. I know what it is like to feel overwhelmed before your synthesis is done. But there should come a point where all the significant puzzle pieces fall into place and you see the box top. Then it is easy.
There are still a million details one can investigate. We are not given exhaustive info about these things and to try and figure them all out is endless. We do have to temper ourselves less we spend all our time trying to solve what may not be able to be solved now. But in time, these little details will become clear.
The question of prophecy is not just what does the Bible say, but why and what are we suppose to do about it. That is why I stated my summary of eschatology. Do people agree with the summary? If not, then state your own summary. I would love to see it.
by Douggg on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:32 am
The Orange Mailman wrote:But I haven't backed the assertion that the ten nation alliance rises at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week. But Revelation 12-13 make it clear that the beast rises out of the sea, then the beast has authority for 42 months. Notice that in Revelation 12 as the dragon is cast out from heaven at the dawn of time, that the authority is vested in the seven heads of the dragon. This is signified by the seven diadems on the seven heads. Now when the beast rises out of the sea, there is a significant change. Now the authority is vested in the ten horns (the ten kings) because the diadems are now on the ten horns.
But Revelation 12-13 make it clear that the beast rises out of the sea, then the beast has authority for 42 months. Notice that in Revelation 12 as the dragon is cast out from heaven at the dawn of time, that the authority is vested in the seven heads of the dragon. This is signified by the seven diadems on the seven heads. Now when the beast rises out of the sea, there is a significant change. Now the authority is vested in the ten horns (the ten kings) because the diadems are now on the ten horns.
by watching on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:00 am
The Orange Mailman wrote: 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.
The Orange Mailman wrote: 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
by watching on Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:26 am
2 Thessalonians 2:8
King James Version (KJV)
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
by morpheus on Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:35 pm
However, that does not mean that Paul MUST be talking about Michael, in 2 Thessalonians 2, just because we know, that Michael will play a role during the latter half of the seventieth week, based on other scriptures, THAT WERE NOT WRITTEN BY PAUL, BTW, especially since Paul did not even mention Michael ONCE anywhere in the text of 2 Thessalonians 2.
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
by morpheus on Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:14 pm
The bride is removed slightly prior to the Day of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
The Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20,...which occurs slightly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week.
In Genesis 6:3 it is declared that the Spirit of God was restraining sin in the days of Noah.
But in those days,..the Holy Spirit was not indwelling the believer.
So who was it that was restraining evil prior to the Day of Pentecost?...the answer is that it was the Holy Spirit who is omnipresent.
So!......If the Holy Spirit is omnipresent,..then why did the Lord send the Comforter?...is not the Comforter the Holy Spirit? How can you send someone who is already omnipresent?
The reason the Lord sent the Comforter was that He would indwell believers.
The Holy Spirit will not indwell a man unless he sincerely asks and Believes Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
The Holy Spirit will "only" seal a "true" believer with the promise of redemption.(God does not break promises)
And the result of being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is..."SAVED BY GRACE"
But those who enter Daniels 70th week and come to Jesus During those days,...Their salvation is conditional,...they must endure unto the end, and the same shall be saved.These are saved by faith that must be evidenced by their works of faith,...meaning that these were not saved by grace,...that these were not sealed of the Holy Spirit of promise when they first believed.
The reason why is because the Comforter no longer functions the same way as He did during the Church age,..Fore He was taken out of the way,..and since it is that the Holy spirit Indwells believers in the Church age,...then they too were caught up!(Taken out of the way)
The Holy Spirit did not indwell believers prior to the Day of Pentecost,..and as we can see,..the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling those who are left behind when the Rapture occurs.
18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
by watching on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:08 pm
morpheus wrote:When comparing Scripture with Scripture, the first place we should go to explain 2 Thess should be 1 Thess?
by The Orange Mailman on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:13 pm
by watching on Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:17 pm
benny balerio wrote:
I think that the reason why many here will attempt to refute that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer is because,....it reveals a pre-trib rapture and destroys their views that are contrary to a pre-trib rapture.
mark s wrote:
Benny, I tend to agree with you that some people may find it difficult to separate doctrines when studying them. We oftentimes realize the implications of various views as we are considering them, and this can, imo, influence our thinking. We have to guard against that.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
Matthew 24:15-21
King James Version (KJV)
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Daniel 12:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
by Mrs. B on Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:14 pm
by mark s on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:03 pm
watching wrote:mark s wrote:
Benny, I tend to agree with you that some people may find it difficult to separate doctrines when studying them. We oftentimes realize the implications of various views as we are considering them, and this can, imo, influence our thinking. We have to guard against that.
Hi mark and benny,
I would just like to say that my understanding of scripture does not in any way affect my view of the rapture.
In fact, as I have been saying all along, my hope is in a pre-trib rapture.
My view of the rapture, however, is obviously not based on popular teachings.
So, my hope in a pre-trib rapture is not hinged on whether 2 Thessalonians 2 is referring to the Holy Spirit, or not.
by morpheus on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:17 pm
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:46 am
morpheus wrote:benny,
you wrote...The bride is removed slightly prior to the Day of the Lord(1 Thessalonians 1;10)
The Day of the Lord begins with Ezekiel 38;18-20,...which occurs slightly prior to the beginning of Daniels 70th week.
In Genesis 6:3 it is declared that the Spirit of God was restraining sin in the days of Noah.
But in those days,..the Holy Spirit was not indwelling the believer.
So who was it that was restraining evil prior to the Day of Pentecost?...the answer is that it was the Holy Spirit who is omnipresent.
So!......If the Holy Spirit is omnipresent,..then why did the Lord send the Comforter?...is not the Comforter the Holy Spirit? How can you send someone who is already omnipresent?
The reason the Lord sent the Comforter was that He would indwell believers.
The Holy Spirit will not indwell a man unless he sincerely asks and Believes Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
The Holy Spirit will "only" seal a "true" believer with the promise of redemption.(God does not break promises)
And the result of being sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise is..."SAVED BY GRACE"
But those who enter Daniels 70th week and come to Jesus During those days,...Their salvation is conditional,...they must endure unto the end, and the same shall be saved.These are saved by faith that must be evidenced by their works of faith,...meaning that these were not saved by grace,...that these were not sealed of the Holy Spirit of promise when they first believed.
The reason why is because the Comforter no longer functions the same way as He did during the Church age,..Fore He was taken out of the way,..and since it is that the Holy spirit Indwells believers in the Church age,...then they too were caught up!(Taken out of the way)
The Holy Spirit did not indwell believers prior to the Day of Pentecost,..and as we can see,..the Holy Spirit will not be indwelling those who are left behind when the Rapture occurs.
I have no problem with the bride being removed at the start of the DOTL. We agree there.
But saying Ex 38 starts the DOTL which starts the 70th week - I think not. Here is passage you referred to.18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground.
Where exactly in this passage do you find this starts of anything? I see "in that day" but not "at the start of that day." I do not see it at all. Instead what about these verses.30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
You should know where this passage is from. (If not, you need to read the whole Bible first, then reexamine your eschatology.) So your proof verses do not say anything about what starts the DOTL. The one I quoted does. We can link that up in the Olivet Discourse to see when the sun and moon go dark and therefore where the DOTL begins. Seeing this is well after the AoD, I think you have a massive problem. In fact in Rev 6 where the sun and moon go dark we read this:
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us[f] from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their[g] wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
Sun and moon go dark and - the DOTL starts. This is after the five seals which match up with the Olivet Discourse. In fact, this sixth seal matches up too. And right after this sixth seal - why that matches up to. The Sign of the Son of Man coming in clouds and the angel gathering the elect.
So I have to say your proof falls apart at step two. The only other point you back with Scripture is point 3. But that is talking pre-Flood, pre-Israel. That is pretty far removed from end-times. The Bible says Michael is the one who now stands for Israel. Michael appears in many end-times passages. The HS does not. So I think going back to Genesis 6 is a far stretch. It is not totally wrong to do so, but you must go with the later info and more clear scriptures.
Seeing you have a mistake at point 2 and inferior proof at step 3, I think I have adequately responded. After that, all your points don't mention Scripture. That usually is a very bad sign.
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:49 am
Orange Mailman wrote:For instance, the revealing of the man of sin is not particularly hinged upon the ceasing of the restrainer, but the man of sin is certainly revealed when the restrainer ceases restraining.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
by mark s on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:13 am
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:38 am
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:42 am
mark s wrote:Thank you for emphasizing the use of eis here.
Personally, I see it as indicating the goal of the restraining. The thing the restraining is "towards" is that the man of sin be revealed at the time appointed for him, "his own time".
mark s wrote:To prevent him from being revealed early, there is a restraining going on.
by mark s on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:39 am
watching wrote:mark s wrote:Thank you for emphasizing the use of eis here.
Personally, I see it as indicating the goal of the restraining. The thing the restraining is "towards" is that the man of sin be revealed at the time appointed for him, "his own time".
Exactly!mark s wrote:To prevent him from being revealed early, there is a restraining going on.
by morpheus on Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:41 am
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:02 am
mark s wrote:watching wrote:mark s wrote:Thank you for emphasizing the use of eis here.
Personally, I see it as indicating the goal of the restraining. The thing the restraining is "towards" is that the man of sin be revealed at the time appointed for him, "his own time".
Exactly!mark s wrote:To prevent him from being revealed early, there is a restraining going on.
Just another way of saying the same thing.
by mark s on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:32 am
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:47 am
morpheus wrote:benny,
I think your logic is so whacked out I do not even know where to begin. I will touch a few things though.
I disagree that there is a significant difference between the Scripture passages where the sun and moon go dark. How exact do the words have to be to match? Have you ever seen a lunar eclipse? Usually during a total lunar eclipse, the moon does go red before and afterwards. It also depends on your location on earth whether the moon goes totally dark or whether is just gets red and darkens.
To say there is a difference between the moon going black and the moon going red does not match what happens in real life. So your saying the passages do not match up begs the questions how dark does the moon have to get to be totally dark, what location are we going to use for a reference, is the moon going red part of a total lunar eclipse or just something before and after? What about a partial lunar eclipse? Does that count?
This is the same mistake used on many of the second coming/rapture passages. Each passage is a little different but some people use these small differences to say they are not the same event. Some of us say they are the same event but the small differences are just because they have a little different perspective.
I guess I would ask this question. Are the four gospels about one Jesus or four? At least John is very different from the first three gospels. Does John talk about a different Jesus? I am guessing everybody would agree the similarities between the gospels are just too great to say they talk about a different Jesus. There is only one Jesus.
Yet when it comes to prophecy, some people see the little differences and say they are all different events. One prominent pre-trib author even when so far as to say there are four different sun and moon going dark events in prophecy. These people ignore the great similarities and only see tiny differences. I think these people are not consistent in their hermeneutics. To be consistent they should say there was four different guys named Jesus.
But even more, I think there is objective proof how we handle situations like this. There is a area of math called statistics that handles this type of situation. Unfortunately most people have never studied this. I really think this gets to the heart of the eschatology issue. Similarities verses differences. What is significant? Some people yes; others say no. Very few theologians have ever studied higher math that could help.
Same too that many theologians have never studied logic. If they have, most of their logic experience is not is real world situations. For example, I spent 10 years as a computer programmer. That's over 20,000 hours of doing logic. If I made mistakes, of which I made plenty, I got real world feedback. I had to consistently test and prove my logic worked. Even so much as a colon verses a semicolon would crash the program. But those were the easy mistakes to find. It was the complex mistakes in well over a million lines of code that were tough to find. They did not crash the program but slowly corrupted data over years. Or they worked fine for 999 out of 1000 situations. But when you hit that 1 in a 1000 case, they did not work. Sometimes there wasn't even much evidence of a mistake. They were the hard bugs to track down.
When I see many theologians do eschatology I just laugh at how they would do as a programmer. I serious consider making my older children doing computer programming just as a training ground to help their Bible study. I even bet a few people here are computer programmers and can vouch for the importance of what I say. I'm sure some mathematicians would say the same bout their work.
So, if people see differences where I see similarities, what can I say? We all have difference experiences and knowledge that form our thinking. Some people obviously are way better than others in some areas. Here on this forum all are welcome to participate. Some are experts in language, some in logic, some in keeping the peace. All are needed.
But if people see differences where I see similarities, some see a red moon and dark moon being totally different, then there is not much more to say. They are going to keep the same logic in all other areas. There is not much left to discuss. I mean there is a lot to discuss; it is just we don't agree on the same toolset by which to solve problems.
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:58 am
watching wrote:Hi mark,
Then the text would not have said, "in his OWN time."
It would have said, "in the time appointed for him."
Why would the text say one thing, if it really means something else?
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:12 pm
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:31 pm
watching wrote:Hi benny,
So, if you wanted to make an appointment with your doctor.....
And your doctor said, "you don't really need to hurry to make your next appointment, you can come in your OWN time."
Does that mean that your doctor needs to see you back in two weeks?
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:35 pm
by benny balerio on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:45 pm
watching wrote:Then how is it his OWN time?
by mark s on Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:51 pm
by watching on Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:07 pm
mark s wrote:If I have an appointment in two weeks, I can't come in next week. I have to wait. I have a time set aside for me. That's my own time.
2:6 καὶ νῦν τὸ κατέχον οἴδατε εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ
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