Wherefore Art Thou, Gog?

[1whowaits]

EC, interesting timeline, i will continue to 'wait' on that one. The thought about Gog-Magog is that it is a 'game-changer', from that point on things are radically different. The world would be thrown into chaos, economies would fall, wars over resources would erupt. But Israel would rise in prominence as it would be clear that God acted on behalf of Israel, and God would bless Israel while the rest of the world declined.

Gog-magog would also look much like armageddon to those in the faith, and when Jesus did not return after Gog some might fall from the faith, 'where is the promise of His coming?'

The world would then be ripe for a supposed 'saviour', Israel also believes that the Messiah will come around the time of Gog-Magog, and Satan will provide what the world is looking for. And as some will believe that armageddon has already occurred, the one who comes must be the 'one', he could not be the evil one as the evil leader already died at Gog-magog.

[extravagantchristian]

Here, I fixed it. I know it's a little cramped, I was just trying to see if everything would fit in order for Jesus to come back in 2015. Hopefully God will allow us more time in there than I did

[1whowaits]

EC, outta here by 2015? From your lips to Gods' ear! But i don't think we have much input on the timimg, i think this is going to be a long, hard journey (but the end will be outta this world!).

[shorttribber]

EC, outta here by 2015? From your lips to Gods' ear! But i don't think we have much input on the timimg, i think this is going to be a long, hard journey (but the end will be outta this world!).

won't you folks be so happy when you find out I'm right

shorttrib........and we're outa here!

[extravagantchristian]

[Stephen]

Hi shortribber,

I don't see that either........no seven year covenant coming..............Daniel 9:27 refers to Christ

Brave man!

And I entirely agree with you.

What I am about to post now is probably not going to be popular….

… so I’ll just say that these are my conclusions from my own Bible studies and cross-referencing of theologians and Bible Teachers both ancient and modern. And my own inner conviction and ‘sense of it.’

Feel free to ignore them.

I know how difficult it is to begin to be disturbed by information and perspectives that undermine what seems like a seamless understanding of things. Especially when what one feels is slipping away is something that seems to have very positive elements and to hold out a lot of hope and freedom from suffering.

In other words, a major paradigm shift.

Believe me, I have been through such myself BIG time!

So, the first crucial point to my understanding – I have realised – is that I cannot accept the ‘rapture’ theories. And it is around these ‘theories’ that so much of modern Biblical prophetic interpretation is currently turning. They are seriously influencing all our expectations whenever we see anything happen – like the current upheavals in the Middle East.

These ‘teachings’ have become as if ‘written in stone’ to many people. They come with a complete fabrication (in my view) of an end-time peace treaty for 7 years, brokered by a suave politician anti-Christ; a rebuilding of a third temple; then the breaking of the ‘peace treaty’ and an ‘abomination’ of the ‘temple’, etc., etc.

This isn’t Biblical prophecy to me. It’s a ‘sugar-coated’, ‘exciting’ fairy story. The stuff of the ‘best-selling’ Left Behind novels and DVDs. A story cut and pasted together by cherry-picking specific verses and parts of verses to support it, having first of all broken off the last ‘week’ of Daniel’s prophecy to carry forward into the ‘story-line’.

And there was no need to do that! There was no need to treat Daniel’s seventy weeks as anything other than ‘continuous’, as we would logically and intuitively expect them to be from the words of the Angel … who gave NO indication to the contrary.

The last week of Daniel very precisely fits the seven year period running from Christ’s baptism by John the Baptist, through His death on the cross mid-way through (which, by the way, was the sealing of the New Covenant with many through His blood! NOT a ‘peace treaty’!), and on into the rejection of the Gospel by the Jewish Sanhedrin (very definitely at the stoning of Stephen), and the taking of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

It was for the ‘overspreading of abominations’ committed by the Sanhedrin and Pharisees in orchestrating the execution of the Son of God (whom they should have recognised and received with worship and adoration), and in persisting in their traditional practices after Christ’s ‘sacrifice’, that Jerusalem and the Jewish people were ‘made desolate’ in the centuries that followed.

So from this perspective the 70 weeks are completely fulfilled.

There is no ‘rapture’ to come, nor 7 years peace treaty with Israel, etc.

But there will be an anti-Christ. A human personification. A ‘man of sin.’ (Later in-dwelt by Satan.)

He might well arise within the leadership of a corrupted Papacy. Or a corrupted Papacy might fulfill the role of his supporting ‘false prophet’, while the anti-Christ comes forward from somewhere else.

And before anyone asks me if I am a 7 Day Adventist again, the answer is no. What I have outlined above is basically the teachings of the Protestant reformers, and many great Christian commentators and teachers of the Bible that followed after them.

And, to me, they carry the stamp of truth and common sense.

Here, for example, is an excerpt from the voluminous commentaries of Matthew Henry (1662 – 1714), considered by some to be the greatest commentator of all on the Bible. In this brief excerpt he talks about Christ being ‘cut-off’ and the nature of the ‘covenant with many’ and the causing of ‘the sacrifice and oblation to cease’:

And thus it behoved Christ to suffer. He must be cut off, but not for himself —not for any sin of his own, but, as Caiaphas prophesied, he must die for the people, in our stead and for our good,—not for any advantage of his own (the glory he purchased for himself was no more than the glory he had before, Jn. 17:4, 5); no; it was to atone for our sins, and to purchase life for us, that he was cut off.

He must confirm the covenant with many. He shall introduce a new covenant between God and man, a covenant of grace, since it had become impossible for us to be saved by a covenant of innocence.

This covenant he shall confirm by his doctrine and miracles, by his death and resurrection, by the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, which are the seals of the New Testament, assuring us that God is willing to accept us upon gospel-terms. His death made his testament of force, and enabled us to claim what is bequeathed by it. He confirmed it to the many, to the common people; the poor were evangelized, when the rulers and Pharisees believed not on him.

Or, he confirmed it with many, with the Gentile world. The New Testament was not (like the Old) confined to the Jewish church, but was committed to all nations. Christ gave his life a ransom for many.

He must cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. By offering himself a sacrifice once for all he shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices, shall supercede them and set them aside; when the substance comes the shadows shall be done away. He causes all the peace-offerings to cease when he has made peace by the blood of his cross, and by it confirmed the covenant of peace and reconciliation.

By the preaching of his gospel to the world, with which the apostles were entrusted, he took men off from expecting remission by the blood of bulls and goats, and so caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/daniel/9.html


It never enters Matthew Henry’s head to break off the last seven weeks of Daniel’s prophecy and move it into the end times, then make the anti-Christ the centre of the prophecy, rather than Our Lord!

The 70 weeks run in continuity, as we would naturally expect. They end in 34 AD.

So – IMO – these theories of a ‘rapture’ (save at the end, when Our Lord appears again at the Mount of Olives) have no real basis in the Bible. Christ ascended to be with the Father from the Mount of Olives, and will return to that spot in the same way.

"This same Jesus, which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into Heaven." (Acts 1:9-12). So the Angels told the disciples watching Our Lord’s ascension.

And He will appear as suddenly and visibly as lightning coming from the East (i.e. no-one will miss it!); with a shout and the voice of the archangel and a trumpet (noise of readying for battle?!), and

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4: 17)

What we have with the ‘rapture’ teachings – it seems to me – is part of the ‘great delusion’ God sends at the ‘end times’, and which will deceive, if it were possible, even the elect.

Now, with the above background in place, we need to ask what purpose does a false rapture teaching serve?

Well, it seems obvious to me that one of the easiest ways such a false doctrine could be used is to ‘pre-empt’ Our Lord’s true return by orchestrating the ‘fulfillment’ of this false teaching exactly as people are now anticipating! (But is nowhere described in the Bible!) And then afterwards – when the ‘false antichrist’ of the ‘rapture’ has been ‘defeated’, bring in a ‘false messiah’ – a really wonderful looking ‘Jesus’ that Christians are so longing for – and ‘hey presto!’ … the (Christian) rabbits are in the pot! (And Christ has NOT returned yet!)

So we might expect things to unfold as set up by the rapture stories (except without a ‘rapture’!), including a suddenly visible ‘anti-Christ’ emerging on the political scene (very easily contrived with media assistance – remember Tony Blair and Barak Obama? Out of nowhere!), a ‘peace treaty’ (easily contrived by the ‘elites’), a ‘rebuilding of temple #3’, an act of ‘abomination’ and then – as Christians are sagely nodding their heads, and explaining to everyone else around them what it all means! In terms of ‘rapture theology’ – we will have, in quick succession …

A false Armageddon

A false Messiah

And …

A false ‘1,000 year Millennium’ that Satan is set up to control! (Or at least a false start of it. In no way is Satan going to out-manoeuvre God! Only mankind … and, sadly, many Christians.)

Do you see how dangerous this is becoming?

What it could mean in terms of souls lost? Souls who will be so committed to their false theories that they will – eventually exasperated with those who (as they think) refuse to see it! – gradually be drawn into persecuting their brethren. The Christians who DO actually see what is happening!

And look back on how this has all been set up.

Since from the early 19th Century!

If you find the above ‘food for thought’, then start looking up early Protestant theologians and follow through with them their analysis of the 70 weeks of Daniel.

And here is a good summary. Text of a ‘sermon’ by Dave Redick:

Daniel’s Remarkable Seventy Weeks Prophecy

Part 1.

http://preacherstudy.com/members/seventyw1.html

Part 2.

http://preacherstudy.com/members/seventyw2.html


Now, to return specifically to what is currently happening in the Middle East

We obviously need to keep our eyes on what is happening to Israel. But we mustn’t fall into the trap of thinking that all of Israel is composed of true believers just waiting for their Messiah. (30% of Israelis answered to a recent poll that they are atheists!)

And the spirit of antichrist could easily have entered the Sanhedrin again. Just as it had 2,000+ years ago.

In fact many truly religious Jews regularly protest ‘Zionist’ policies. Jews both inside and outside of Israel. Some refuse to join the Israeli armed forces, and take 2 years in prison instead. Brave people. With conscience.

So, as in the rest of the world, things are by no means ‘black and white’ in Israel, and the forces of good and evil are continually at war, just as elsewhere. In fact, given the fact that the Jews are God’s chosen people, and Our Saviour came through the line of David, it is quite likely that the battle rages more intensely there than possibly anywhere else! (Remember that the Kabbalah – a basis for satanic, black magic – comes from ‘Jewish’ Babylon. Not all the Jewish captives wanted to leave Babylon and return to Judea. Some were very happy with what they had established for themselves! And still are! The ‘House of Rothschild’ springs to mind!)

However, that said I do think Israel is about to be attacked. Everyone seems to be lining up against them at the moment. Not only the Arab nations with their ‘eternal hatred’, but also the USA, Great Britain, and others are condemning Israel from various angles. (And it is entirely possible that some in ‘high’ positions in Israel are colluding with the plan. ‘Spiritual wickedness in high places.’ Remember that the people working to establish Satan’s one world system have no loyalties to their countries of origin! Their loyalty is solely to the Prince of the Air – who brings them all the things they so much enjoy!)

I don’t see how it can be the Gog/Magog conflict, however, without Libya, Turkey and at least the Southern Russian Islamic states taking part. It may, however, be a ‘preliminary conflict’ to expand Israel’s borders by defeating surrounding Arab nations (if they attack) and who might well be in a somewhat chaotic state within their political and military organisation at the moment.

What is more disturbing to me, however, and once again ties in with a remark shorttribber made about ‘where are the cattle’?

The US has walls and gates...but not greatly so as Israel does for their enormous security needs........The US is the land spoken of in verses 11 and 12. The attack will happen nearly at the same time IMO.

Anybody ever see vast numbers of cattle in the MIDST of Israel.......anyone?...............Anybody ever see VAST numbers of cattle in the MIDST of the US?.............

With very great reluctance I am also coming to the conclusion that America is the end times ‘Babylon’.

Despite the many wonderful people within the USA, and the many very genuine Christians, America, as a ‘nation’ and in light of the way it is behaving toward the rest of the world – particularly in the ‘biblical lands’ of the Middle East – seems more and more to fulfill all the criteria.

But that would be a long post!

So if you want to read a fairly good summary on America as Babylon, take a look at this PDF ‘book’ by Stewart Best.

[u]Is America Babylon?[/u/]

http://www.markswatson.com/BAB.pdf

And, again sadly, it is not to difficult to envisage Russia, all the Islamic world, and the ‘kings of the east’ (China) launching a savage attack against the United States. A full-scale nuclear assault. (Also against Europe – America’s allies.)

Do many Americans feel troubled at such a possibility?

Or are they living in ‘peace and safety’ in ‘unwalled villages’? At rest? Dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates?

This all starts to get a bit grim.

So we must remember that God, our All Powerful Father and Father of Our Lord, is completely aware of what is going on, even as we struggle to understand.

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” (Titus 2: 13)

God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

What is more disturbing to me, however, and once again ties in with a remark shorttribber made about ‘where are the cattle’?


The US has walls and gates...but not greatly so as Israel does for their enormous security needs........The US is the land spoken of in verses 11 and 12. The attack will happen nearly at the same time IMO.

Anybody ever see vast numbers of cattle in the MIDST of Israel.......anyone?...............Anybody ever see VAST numbers of cattle in the MIDST of the US?.............

With very great reluctance I am also coming to the conclusion that America is the end times ‘Babylon’.

Despite the many wonderful people within the USA, and the many very genuine Christians, America, as a ‘nation’ and in light of the way it is behaving toward the rest of the world – particularly in the ‘biblical lands’ of the Middle East – seems more and more to fulfill all the criteria.

But that would be a long post!

So if you want to read a fairly good summary on America as Babylon, take a look at this PDF ‘book’ by Stewart Best.

[u]Is America Babylon?[/u/]

http://www.markswatson.com/BAB.pdf

And, again sadly, it is not to difficult to envisage Russia, all the Islamic world, and the ‘kings of the east’ (China) launching a savage attack against the United States. A full-scale nuclear assault. (Also against Europe – America’s allies.)

Do many Americans feel troubled at such a possibility?

Or are they living in ‘peace and safety’ in ‘unwalled villages’? At rest? Dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates?

This all starts to get a bit grim.

So we must remember that God, our All Powerful Father and Father of Our Lord, is completely aware of what is going on, even as we struggle to understand.

“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” (Titus 2: 13)

God Bless,

[Douggg]

And there was no need to do that! There was no need to treat Daniel’s seventy weeks as anything other than ‘continuous’, as we would logically and intuitively expect them to be from the words of the Angel … who gave NO indication to the contrary.

The last week of Daniel very precisely fits the seven year period running from Christ’s baptism by John the Baptist, through His death on the cross mid-way through (which, by the way, was the sealing of the New Covenant with many through His blood! NOT a ‘peace treaty’!), and on into the rejection of the Gospel by the Jewish Sanhedrin (very definitely at the stoning of Stephen), and the taking of the Gospel to the Gentiles.

Hi Steve, the seven years are in Revelation 12 (Revelation 12:6+12:14). In Revelation 13, only the last 42 months are addressed.

Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 both cannot be only 42 months long, because the 7 heads on the beast in Revelation 12 have crowns, while the beast in Revelation 13 does not. The crowns are on the 7 heads in Revelation 12 because the Antichrist man, the seventh king, has come to power by confirming the covenant of Daniel 9:27, with the full seven years to go in Revelation 12. In Revelation 13, there are no crowns on the seven heads because that chapter encompasses only the last forty two months. The Antichrist man comes to power in Revelation 12; but by the midpoint in Revelation 13, he has been slain. That's why in Revelation 13, with the last 42 months to go, the one head has been mortally wounded (the Antichrist man), and none of the heads have crowns since he was the last of the seven kings.

I am going to break down Revelation 12 for illustration purposes. It is in sequential order.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (That's the first half of the 7 years)
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, (At the midpoint)
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (that's the second half of the 7 years)
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


Well, what about the first five verses, 12:1-5 ? If John was given the vision without those verses, then persons reading Revelation 12 could get the wrong idea that the woman is the Church. The first five verses identify the woman as Israel.

The appearance of the dragon is when Israel is about to give birth to Jesus. The Roman Empire, the fourth empire was in power at the time.

From verse 5 to verse 6, 2000 years of persecution against the Jews has taken place. In verse 6, the Jews are back in the land of Israel, protected against that persecution. But she is in a state of unbelief during the first 1260 days of the 7 years.

The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and 13 because they encompass unequal timeframes. Satan is kicked down at the midpoint of the 7 years. The 42 months in Revelation 13 and the times, times, and half times in Revelation 12 are both the second half. But the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 comes prior to Satan being kicked down. The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 because they encompass different timeframes.

Revelation 17 is timestamped at the time of John.
Revelation 12 is timestamped endtimes with the full 7 years to go.
Revelation 13 is timestamped endtimes with the last 42 months to go.

Doug L.

[shorttribber]

The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and 13 because they encompass unequal timeframes. Satan is kicked down at the midpoint of the 7 years. The 42 months in Revelation 13 and the times, times, and half times in Revelation 12 are both the second half. But the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 comes prior to Satan being kicked down. The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 because they encompass different timeframes.

How long is the war between Michael and satan(the LOSER deserves no Cap.)?

[Douggg]

The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and 13 because they encompass unequal timeframes. Satan is kicked down at the midpoint of the 7 years. The 42 months in Revelation 13 and the times, times, and half times in Revelation 12 are both the second half. But the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 comes prior to Satan being kicked down. The crowns are different in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 because they encompass different timeframes.

How long is the war between Michael and satan(the LOSER deserves no Cap.)?

Hi shorttribber, as far as I know, we aren't told how long the war lasts between Michael (and his angels) and Satan (and his angels). But that it does last some time (earth time passing) is taken into account in the text because when Satan and his angels are kicked down, the remaining time is expressed as a time, times, and half times, which is a more rounded off expression than 1260 days and 42 months.

btw, the 42 months in Revelation 13 is given as the expressed time of the Antichrist unimpeded rule because the two witnesses are killed on day 1260 and lay in the streets until they ascend to heaven on day 1263.5. If we were to subtract
from 2520 (the 7 years in days) the 1263.5 days - we would end up with 1256.5 days of the Antichrist unimpeded rule. Rather than stating that there are 1256.5 days left in Revelation 13, 42 months is used which is a more rounded off figure. The 42 months takes into account the 3 1/2 days the two witnesses lay in the streets.

Also, if I might add, the war in heaven is the second heaven - the cosmos. Satan and his angels must be kicked down to earth because their dwelling place, the cosmos, is going to be removed at the end of the 7 years when the heavens part away in Revelation 6, the sixth seal.

Doug L.

[shorttribber]

Hi Dougg,

Rev 12 IMO is spanning a time much greater than the 2,000 year space plus great trib as you speak of.
We have an entire thread dedicated to Rev 12....you probably know already.

can you not see the possibility of Rev 12 spanning a greater timeframe than what you understand it to be?

Why would verse 6 speak of the woman fleeing to the wilderness and then say later in the chapter that she takes flight or flees into the wilderness again?

The timeframe I hold to allows a very natural progressive reading of the entire chapter ie. two separate flights by the woman.....one at the destruction of Jerusalem at 70AD and the second during the great(42 month) tribulation and the war in heaven spanning the entire time between the two flights.

[Douggg]

Hi Dougg,

Rev 12 IMO is spanning a time much greater than the 2,000 year space plus great trib as you speak of.
We have an entire thread dedicated to Rev 12....you probably know already.

okay, what's the title to that thread and I will respond to you there.

Doug L.

[shorttribber]

It's in the question/answer part called "the woman of Rev 12"

We should continue in this thread though as it still relates to our discussion here and the other is 6 pages long......you've already left many comments in it as well.

The reason I say it relates to this thread is because the timing of the attack on Israel and the USA is when the LOSER is cast to earth and the great time of trouble begins.

Even if you don't agree with my opinions they can serve as warning and clear instruction to those who are in disagreement and..............IF........you're ideas don't prove true you will know what is occurring around you.

?

[Douggg]

Hi Dougg,

Rev 12 IMO is spanning a time much greater than the 2,000 year space plus great trib as you speak of.
We have an entire thread dedicated to Rev 12....you probably know already.

can you not see the possibility of Rev 12 spanning a greater timeframe than what you understand it to be?

Why would verse 6 speak of the woman fleeing to the wilderness and then say later in the chapter that she takes flight or flees into the wilderness again?

The timeframe I hold to allows a very natural progressive reading of the entire chapter ie. two separate flights by the woman.....one at the destruction of Jerusalem at 70AD and the second during the great(42 month) tribulation and the war in heaven spanning the entire time between the two flights.

Hi shorttribber, , no, I don't see Revelation 12 (not including the first five verses) as anything other than the last 7 years. In Revelation 12:6, the woman flees into the wilderness, a place prepared of God. When Jews were expelled from the land in the first century, it was not their choice, they were not fleeing but taken away as captives and forced out of the land of Israel.

During the 2000 year diaspora, Satan tried every which way he could to destroy the Jews. The last final persecution was the Holocaust. The fleeing is from what? Persecution by the dragon. At the end of WWII, the Jews fled out of the nations back into the land of Israel - because in the nations she was persecuted. Israel is the place prepared for her by God.

Even though the Jews are back in the land, they are in a state of unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. She is metaphorically in the wilderness for the first 1260 days of the 7 years. It will not be until the Antichrist man, who she initially embraces as her messiah, goes and sits in the temple of God proclaiming to be god, that the Jews eyes will be opened and they receive Jesus as their messiah.

In Revelation 12:14, which takes place after the mid-point war in heaven, it is a literal wilderness she flees into because the AOD has been setup. Matthew 24:15-16. Not all of the Jews make it to the wilderness in time though. Those are the remnant (the remainder) in Revelation 12:17 that the dragon is able to persecute until Jesus returns to the mt of olives in Zechariah 14 to rescue them.

If in your interpretation, Revelation 12:14 is the only end times passage in Revelation 12, then the crowns on the heads and horns in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13 would be the same - but they are not. I have already explained why they are not, so there is no need to repeat it.


Doug L.

[Stephen]

Hi Doug,

I think we just have to go with what we each – individually – feel to be right.

But there is a whole different, and coherently organised, interpretation to Daniel and Revelation (and other prophecy) than the ‘rapture’ scenario that began in the 1830s.

As did Seventh Day Adventism!

I base my understanding on the teachings and analysis of the Protestant reformers and theologians, some of whom prophesied accurately such things as the inevitable collapse of the Ottoman empire and the establishment of a new Israel, as far back as the 1600s and 1700s. They new quite well that they were not living in the ‘end times’, which first required these things to come to pass.

It’s sad that this has all become mixed up with 7 Day Adventism, that has itself become perceived as a ‘cult’, and therefore as not to be even looked at by many. But, again, part of the incredible deception, I would say.

Anyway, here’s another way of looking at verse 12, just by way of an example.

I understand Verses 12 and 13 to be a break in the prophetic tempo. A recapitulation and summing up of things that are now mainly in the past to us. But for John some were in the past, and many still to come. (Although he is seeing them in vision as if they were happening before him.) It’s a sort of ‘putting of things in perspective’ and getting the ‘full story’ of what is going on – the war with Satan.

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Israel is specifically represented here at this time, but also the Church. Israel and the Church – both Jew and Gentile as the Church came to be. The Church of Christ pre-figured. However, prior to the ministry of Our Lord, His Church, was, of course, entirely of Israel.

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
The woman waiting to bring forth the ‘seed’ that would ‘crush’ the serpent’s head. The same woman mentioned above – Jewish and of Israel. But the Child she brings forth will establish His ‘Church’ throughout the world.
The coming of the Messiah. Which also shows the ‘re-capitulation nature of this chapter.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Satan, and a direct connection back to Daniel’s vision 7: 7 and 7: 8 in which 10 horns appear on the head of the fourth ‘terrible’ beast, that are destined to become kingdoms within which a ‘little horn’ – the Roman Papacy – emerges. Thereafter the setting up of 10 kingdoms – or ‘provinces’ – ultimately over the whole world, becomes the pattern. The seven heads of this horn indicate the ‘Roman’ (now ‘Papal’) power – ‘the city on seven hills’, and also anticipates the 7 kings (‘five are fallen, one is’, etc.) of Rev 17: 4.


(By the way, one of the reasons the number 11 keeps appearing so often in certain incidents, is that the 'little horn’ is, in fact’ the 11th horn! And there are many on this planet now who well know who he represents! 11 is also the symbol for occult power.

11:11 a.m. Universal Time, on 21 December 2012, is thought by many to be a time of ‘wonderful transformation.’ Hmmm. I’m sure it will be used for something! Lol!

Oh yes – add up 12-21-2012 numerologically. I.e. 1+2+2+1+2+0+1+2. What do you get?

Any three in sequence is considered very powerful. So taking the morning Universal time as well we now get 11:11:11. Hmm. And what is 3 x 11?

Well, you may dismiss the above as rubbish, but I assure you the satanists’ – who ultimately trace back through Babylon – pay close attention to these things. They call them ‘correspondences.’)


4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Satan and his rebellious followers and servants ready to destroy the child – the Messiah – immediately upon childbirth.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
The Messiah is crucified, resurrected, and ascends to the throne of God. Christ victorious and prophecy fulfilled.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The Church of Christ – Jew and Gentile – comes under attack from Satan. In particular from persecution by the Papacy when it comes into the fullness of its power and authority in 538 AD. Many Christian communities fled literally into wilderness areas – particularly in Europe and Spain, and to the ‘New World’ – to escape brutal, tortuous and lethal persecution.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Satan’s ‘murder attempt’ on the Messiah, and his orchestrating of Christ’s crucifixion and the terrible persecutions of the early church to kill the Gospel message, provoke a war in Heaven.

8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Satan loses the war in Heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Satan cast out onto the earth. Now we’re in trouble!

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rejoicing in Heaven.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Satan is defeated by the very Sacrifice (of the Messiah) that he unwittingly orchestrated. And by the commitment and faithfulness of the early church Saints. God’s ‘justice’, enforced by the loyal Angels, prevails. (As always!)

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Satan was defeated and cast out during the ‘early church’ persecutions.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
So, of course, Satan – like any vicious thug who has lost against the One he really hates – decides to persecute the people that One loves. The Church of Christ.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Another reference to the true Church’s period of great persecution (estimated at 50 MILLION deaths – most under torture) from 538 until the ‘wounding’ of a ‘head’ of the ‘beast’ in 1798 under the orders of Napoleon.

Some claim that the ‘eagle’ represents true spirituality, and that the ‘two wings’ are the Old and New Testament - i.e. scripture; God's Word - that sustain the true believers.


15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
During this time of great persecution Satan’s efforts to destroy the true church were ceaseless. During this period the Papacy kept up a continuous war against true church people; confiscated all Bibles (which it had translated into Latin); and even considered possession of a page of scripture to be ‘heresy’! Truly a persecuting ‘flood’ of invective against the true church from the papal mouth!

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
But the true church survived. In wilderness places. And eventually, oversees in the ‘New Land.’

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And now Satan is REALLY mad! And coming after us. Just look at the way the world has gone after the ‘enlightened, Godless rationalism’ of the French Revolution, during which time the power of the Papacy was temporarily removed.


What is going on here, from a ‘non-rapture’ perspective is – imo – summed up well by Matthew Henry. (And I am only quoting a recognised ‘authority’ to demonstrate that there are other, fully worked out and in depth interpretations of the ‘end times’ that do not mention a ‘rapture’, or an end times 70th week of Daniel, at all. Whereas if one keys in general search terms about the end times you will come to sites ‘explaining’ the rapture again and again.)

It is generally agreed by the most learned expositors that the narrative we have in this and the two following chapters, from the sounding of the seventh trumpet to the opening of the vials, is not a prediction of things to come, but rather a recapitulation and representation of things past, which, as God would have the apostle to foresee while future, he would have him to review now that they were past, that he might have a more perfect idea of them in his mind, and might observe the agreement between the prophecy and that Providence that is always fulfilling the scriptures. In this chapter we have an account of the contest between the church and antichrist, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. I. As it was begun in heaven (v. 1–11). II. As it was carried on in the wilderness (v. 12, etc.).

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/revelation/12.html


Matthew Henry died in 1710, long before Napoleon and the French Revolution, so it is of interest to see his take on the ‘deadly wound’ to the beast. Here it is:

A dangerous wound given him, and yet unexpectedly healed, v. 3. Some think that by this wounded head we are to understand the abolishing of pagan idolatry; and by the healing of the wound the introducing of the popish idolatry, the same in substance with the former, only in a new dress, and which as effectually answers the devil’s design as that did.

So note how Matthew Henry considers the possibility that this refers to the wounding of the paganism of early Rome (which brutally persecuted the early church) by the establishing of Christianity as the ‘state religion’ in 313 AD, but then the ‘healing’ of this wound by replacing the pagan idolatry with ‘popish idolatry’ as that became established!

So although Matthew isn’t yet in possession of the historical date of 1798, which would have allowed him to link up the 1,260 days from 538, yet he is in no doubt as to the nature of the papacy! Lol!

I find it interesting how we are constrained by our lack of historical knowledge (because certain events have not happened yet, and ‘linked up’ with earlier events), and therefore just have to give it ‘our best shot.’ But I think Matthew Henry got the essence of the prophecy right here. I.e., the ‘first beast’ (as he saw it) was destroyed; only to be revived in a new and concealed guise. (Some might say the same thing is happening today in our new, friendly, universal and 'ecumenical’ ‘Mother Church’!)

Anyway, Doug, I don’t want you to think I am just being plain stubborn about all this rapture stuff and seven years of tribulation. I keep looking at it. And I would dearly love to find it to be true in my heart. But I can’t.

I did, for a brief period, under the influence of Chuck Missler – who I greatly respect, and who was an early ‘mentor’ of mine. (Through his books and the internet.) But I never really felt easy about it. It always felt too much like escapism to me. And then I found other interpretations which I was immediately more in tune with, although they weren’t so exciting as the ‘rapture’ idea was when I first heard about it.

And I do, as I’ve posted about before, have a pretty solid understanding of occult history. I know when the real (and final) satanic attack began in earnest on this planet. It was in the early 1800s, manifesting itself through ‘friendly’ channellings and familiars, and new doctrines within the church. Until today we have every possible type of channel, and ‘positive’, ‘life-affirming’ teaching, you could imagine. Especially our ‘space brothers.’!

Lights over Jerusalem and baby found in the Dome of the Rock?!

Dear oh dear …

God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

At least we all are as Stephen said,"giving our best shot". That's the best we can do and God will honor our efforts I'm sure......we all need to be ready to be wrong........I do think we'll all be finding out VERY soon.

all brothers and sisters..........I truly appreciate ALL of your thoughts.

be ready

[clang]

Wow Steve, I read that whole article by Stuart Best. It took me a couple hours but it was worth it. I don't know if he is right but he sure did make a pretty good case for America being Babylon. We certainly have seen America's slow but sure demise in a fairly short period of time. The occult has corrupted this country and has even entered many churches.
Great wealth has become the idol that most of this once, God fearing country now worships. He sure did paint a pretty
grim picture of America's future.

[Douggg]

Hi Steve, I should have stated in my previous post to you that I was not defending the pre-trib rapture. I don't see any rapture reference in Revelation 12. My focus is on the seven years being in Revelation 12 and the 42 months in Revelation 13.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Satan, and a direct connection back to Daniel’s vision 7: 7 and 7: 8 in which 10 horns appear on the head of the fourth ‘terrible’ beast, that are destined to become kingdoms within which a ‘little horn’ – the Roman Papacy – emerges. Thereafter the setting up of 10 kingdoms – or ‘provinces’ – ultimately over the whole world, becomes the pattern. The seven heads of this horn indicate the ‘Roman’ (now ‘Papal’) power – ‘the city on seven hills’, and also anticipates the 7 kings (‘five are fallen, one is’, etc.) of Rev 17: 4.

But you are not addressing the crowns. Whether you subscribe to a partial or full historist view or not, the crowns are different in Revelation 12 compared to Revelation 13.

In Daniel 7, only the ten horns appear in that chapter; there are not the seven heads in Daniel 7.

Regarding the ten horns, in Revelation 12, the ten horns do not have crowns, so they have not come to power in Revelation 12. How can you have them in power in Revelation 12 with no crowns on the ten horns?

I would like to hear your explanation why there are:

Revelation 12
crowns on the seven heads
no crowns on the ten horns

Revelation 13
no crowns on the seven heads
crowns on the ten horns.



Doug L.

[Stephen]

Hi Doug,

Apologies for not grasping the gist of your question the first time.

OK. Here we go.

Revelation 12
crowns on the seven heads
no crowns on the ten horns

“And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.” (Rev 12 : 3)

Remember that I am talking (interpreting) from the perspective that verse 12 and 13 are basically an ‘overview’ of the war between Satan and Christ (and Satan’s people and Christ’s people) a placing of events in perspective.

Obviously I think of them as being ‘historical’ events (either past, present or to come), played out on earth, otherwise they would just be entertaining stories.

We have seen the ‘woman introduced’ – Israel and Christ’s Church – the ‘protagonist’ in the drama, if you like.

Now comes the antagonist.

The Red Dragon – Satan

Manifesting through power in Rome – the ‘city on seven hills’. Rome ruled ‘the known’ world. Therefore its heads are crowned.

The ‘seven’ heads is a complex symbol indicating both the ‘city on seven hills’ wherein the satanic power was manifest through the inheritance of the Babylonian priesthood who had migrated there (paganism); also the strength of the roman military empire at the time of John’s vision; also the place wherein would arise the real vehicle of Satan – the Papacy. (As it is today. But I have already posted quite a lot of material about the ‘smoke of Satan’ now having entered the Vatican … as confirmed by some of the Vatican’s own exorcists and dignitaries.)

So the crowns on the ‘seven heads’ at this time are really an indication of both the satanic power (because the heads are on the Red Dragon) and of the undisputed temporal authority of Rome, in its overt military strength; it’s satanic pagan practices (enforced); and it’s hidden, corrupt ‘religious authority’ to come.

Rome was the boss at this time. The power that ‘restrains.’

The ‘ten horns’ are 10 kingdoms yet to arise as Rome falls. So they are not yet crowned.

This is historical fact. I won’t bother listing them again. But these 10 ‘kingdoms’ to arise are very important. Because in the midst of them the ‘little horn’ arises and comes to the fullness of its strength. It ‘uproots’ 3 (that’s why we have no modern names for them – Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Heruli), leaving 7 who become the core nations of Europe, through which the ‘little horn’ really begins to wield its power (which is the power of the Dragon) to persecute the ‘woman’, to amass wealth, and, ultimately, to bring it into the position of power it has grown into today. And it continues to grow!

But this was still to come. So the 10 horns are not yet crowned. The powers (i.e. horns) are kingdoms in embryo, however, as the various tribes and ‘people groups’ within the Roman Empire. Some of these ‘tribes’ are very strong. But all are held in check until the collapse of the Roman Empire – which they eventually bring down in 476 AD.

Revelation 13
no crowns on the seven heads
crowns on the ten horns.

Now we come forward in time and the antichrist power is revealed. This beast power has its power base established among the peoples of the world (the ‘sea).

It is still ruled from Rome, but a Rome that no longer has the temporal power it had in the first centuries after Christ, nor the rulership of the ‘known world’, nor the military might. Hence, by comparison with the image in Rev 12.3 it APPEARS powerless – hence the removal of the crowns from the image of ‘the city on seven hills.’ (Part of the symbology of the 7 heads.)

But this apparent loss of power is very deceptive!

This is obviously the same beast (or power) – having seven heads, and ten horns – which is described in the 12th and 17th chapter of Revelation also. Therefore the heads and horns are the same. This beast is a Satanic and essentially carnal power, disguised in the garb of spirituality and religion. It is the implacable opponent to the Church of Christ (the Woman) and the Saints.

The ten horns are now crowned as indicative of the worldly, or temporal, powers (nations, kingdoms, monarchies) that this beast now operates through and either heavily influences or outright controls.

The ten horns link us back to the 10 ‘kingdoms’ that arose when the Western Roman Empire fell, and also look forward to the organisation of the planet into 10 provinces, or regions, under 10 rulers (kings) answerable to the beast.

It is interesting that in Revelation 17 : 3 the beast described therein, again with 7 heads and 10 horns, is not crowned on any of them.

Why not?

Because the beast is now ridden by the ‘real power’ that controls the world system, through the ‘scarlet woman.’ So the crowns have been removed from both heads and horns!

In Revelation 17: 9 the angel also explains – for this beast anyway – that:

“The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.”

The Hebrew word used, “har”, can be applied to single mountains or ranges or to a ‘hilly’ country or district.

You can look up modern tour literature about Rome today, and still find references to Rome as ‘the City on Seven Hills.’ The hill names are listed in Wikipedia. ‘Capitoline’, for example, after which Washington DC named Capitol Hill for the location of Congress! Etc.

Actually, there is an interesting progression through the 3 ‘seven headed’, ’10 horned’ beasts of Revelation 12: 3, 13: 1, and 17: 3, indicated by the placement of the crowns!

This has only just struck me as I type, and I can’t remember seeing it spoken of elsewhere. So bear with me. This is, as far as I am aware (not remembering any previous influences) just my take.

It seems to me that the progression of Satan’s area of operations is being revealed as history progresses.

Thus, in the first beast (dragon) Rev 12: 3, we have the crowns placed on the 7 Heads.

The second beast (Rev 13: 1) we have the crowns ‘shifted’ to the 10 Horns.

The third beast (Rev 17: 3) we have no crowns on either the ‘7 Heads’ or ‘10 Horns’, and we have the appearance of a ‘scarlet woman’.

Could this be indicating to us that Satan’s first campaign against the ‘Woman’ (Christ’s Church of Jew + Gentile) is waged through the cruel and paganistic might of Rome? Crowns on the seven heads – seven hills – of Rome.

The second onslaught – after the failure to ‘crush’ the Saints with persecution – is waged through the influence of Rome (seven heads) more covertly, by appearing as the ‘Christian’ church among the ‘apparent’ autonomous rulership of the secular nations. Crowns move to the 10 horns. The nations.

Finally, to wrap it all up, Satan is orchestrating the creation of the One World Order, through which his ‘Satanic Church’ will now rule everything. The One Church of Paganism. (‘Ecumenical Papacy’). The ‘Scarlet Woman’ who rides on the backs of everybody!

So no crowns on either the 7 heads (Rome - Papacy) or the 10 horns (international regions) because they have no autonomy. They are all now completely under Satan’s direct rule.

“The whole world will fall under the dominion of the First Born of Hell.”

Hmmm. Maybe.

But, whatever, all very clever symbology, imo.


So now we have at least 3 variations on a theme!

You, myself, and shorttribber. Lol!

This is only where I am now.

God Bless,

Steve

[Stephen]

Hi clang,

It is probably difficult for a born American to realise how much we revered you.

We loved you.

I loved you.

You were my ‘cowboy’ childhood.

Davy Crockett was my absolute hero. The epitome of honourable men fighting for freedom.

I played the Alamo over and over again with my friends. We fought it continually. Good against evil. Remember the actor ‘Fess Parker’? Google him. I wanted to be just like him.

We watched every movie we could about it.

Here is a short memory from my childhood:

Davy Crockett king of the wild frontier - alamo battle scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2Tu8NskR-E

You have many friends, America, We love you very much.

God Bless,

Steve

[amessenger4god]

Hey Stephen,

I'm from Texas and my roommates and I used to always tease are Californian roommate, telling him that Texas won the battle of the Alamo! He hated it when we did that...

[Douggg]

Manifesting through power in Rome – the ‘city on seven hills’. Rome ruled ‘the known’ world. Therefore its heads are crowned.
Steve

Hi Steve,

If the crowns on the seven heads represented Rome as the in-place power in Revelation 12, then the seven heads should have had crowns in Revelation 17 which was at the time of John 1st century, as the sixth king was ruling then, but they don't.

Revelation 17
heads - no crowns
horns - no crowns

Revelation 12
heads - crowns
horn - no crowns

I agree with you that in Revelation 17, it says the heads represent where the woman sits. But since the heads don't have crowns in Revelation 17 which is 1st century at the height of the Roman Empire, I don't see how one could conclude that the crowns in Revelation 12 are there because the Roman Empire was in force. I think a person has to consider the kings.

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

Seeker, i would agree that most of the nations listed are muslim and will likely end up radical muslims. But not all have to be non-muslim, just one, just Magog, land of Gog. And Magog could be linked to the Scythians (Russia) or to eastern Turkey where they could have been in the Babylonian empire at the time of Ezekiel. And Magog can merely mean 'land of Gog', so it does appear to be a mystery as to who will play the role of Magog, we cannot definitvely attach Magog to any particular nation, the closest would be Russia.

Eze 38:3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 38:4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:

The other nations aren't the focus of this chapter Gog is. Gog is the leader of this coalition. Gog is chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. That is mentioned for a reason. I think that reason is so that we may identify Gog by the nations he leads or is chief prince of. Meshech and Tubal are two specific references to actual cities that existed at the time. They were located in what we know as Turkey today. So if the Gog war were to occur today it would be lead by Turkey or more specifically the chief prince of Turkey. Turkey is the only ally Israel has had in the middle east. Israel has trusted Turkey since 1948. Turkey is in the perfect position to act as mediator between Israel and her muslim neighbors and has in fact been doing so. The other thing I don't think you are understanding is that the muslims don't have a choice in the matter God puts hooks in their jaws and hauls them to the Gog war. Doesn't matter how they feel about it God causes them to gather against Israel.

Zep 3:8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

The Gog battle ends with Israel returning to God forever and God pours His spirit upon the house of Israel.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

This Gog battle happens during the same timeframe as the examples above. The Gog battle ends at the same time Armageddon does. The Gog battle also occurs during the reign of the AC because he rules until the end of the last 7 years. All these bible prophets are speaking of the same timeframe. Why would anyone of any religion worship the AC, another man? Not a religion on earth would stand for that. It would seem impossible that anyone would bow to the AC being a man. So how is it that people worship the AC?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

God sends them a strong delusion so they believe the AC's lie. They are drawn in or hooked. The believe the lying signs and wonders.

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The miracles are what draws the nations in and sets the deception. God hooks them and drags them to Armageddon/Gog war by sending them a strong delusion to believe the lie of signs and miracles. It is the miracles that cause the muslims and every other lost religion out there to believe the lie and worship the beast. So logic really doesn't do us much good here we must rely on the words of God as written. Logic would tell us muslims would not bow to a man. Logic would tell us Christians would not bow to the AC. Logic would say that Jews would not bow to a man. Logic would tell us Hindus would not bow to a man Logic would tell us no man would bow to another man. But yet we see all who are not written in the book of life worshipping the AC. The bible gives us the exact names of many of the attacking nations. All those are muslim nations currently. They are just as likely as any other group to be fooled by the lying signs and wonders, besides Christians. We have been warned ahead of time.

Peace,
Seeker

[Mrs. B]

Wherefore Art thou, Gog?



Matt. 4:8.....AGAIN, the devil taketh him (Jesus) up into an exceeding High Mouontain, and sheweth Him all the KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD, and the Glory of Them;

9....And saith unto Him (Jesus), ALL THESE THINGS will I give thee, IF THOU WILT FALL DOWN AND WORSHIP ME.....

When Adam Sin......satan became the god of this world

Jesus called him, the prince of this world ...
John 12:31b....now shall the prince of this world be cast out...
John 14:30b...for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me....
John 16:11...Of judgment, because he Prince of this world is judged...
Eph. 2:2...Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to
The Prince of the Power of the Air, the Spirit that NOW Worketh in the Children of Disobedience....

Jesus said.....now worketh in the children of disobedience....
Paul said...II Thess 2:9.....Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with....ALL Power and
signs and lying wonders...
10...And with all deceivableness of Unrighteousness in them that perish...
Because They Receive NOT the Love of THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED......
Daniel 7:8.....I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them Little Horn,
before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:
and behold in this horn were eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things....

Notice MOUTH speaking great things...
11.....I beheld then because of the VOICE OF THE GREAT WORDS...which the Horn Spake:

20b.....even of that horn that had eyes, and mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21...I beheld, and the same horn made war THE the saints
..and prevailed agains them....UNTIL, the Ancient of Days Came....and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High...and the time came that the saints possessed the Kingdom......

The kingdom on this eath....during the 1000 years....
...And he shall speak Great words Against the Most High, and shall WEAR OUT THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH....AND THINK TO CHANGE TIMES AND LAWS;
AND THEY SHALL BE GIVEN INTO HIS HAND....UNTIL A TIME AND TIMES AND THE DIVIDING OF tIME.
DANIL 26....but JUDGMENT SHALL SIT...AND THEY SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS DOMINION, TO CONSUME AND TO DESTROY IT UNTO THE END...

In Daniel 8.....Daniel has another vision...detailing more of chapter 7....
Daniel 8:8....Therefore the he goat waxed very great:
and when he SAID UNTO ME.....unto two thousand and three hundred days;
Then shall be the Sanctuary be Cleansed....(Or Justified)..
This is just a little less then seven years...
The sanctuary is the Church.....that is where God dwells in us the Believer....What know ye know not that your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit...and that you are not your own...you have been bought with a price...Therefore
Glorify God in your Body...

Paul said...two things have to happen before Jesus returns...There has to be a Falling Away....falling away from truth...and the Devil has to be reveal....as a man.....satan in a body...the antichrist....deceving and ruling....Satan's desire is to be the God of this World...that is why He tempted Jesus......and at the end for a short time he will rule.....for a little less then seven years...He will rule......when we see this look up for our redemption draws neigh.....
the only way he can rule is the church falls away from truth....we fall from Grace....Just like Noah's day and God closed the Door to the Ark......so the door will be shut.......the Sacrifice and Oblation will cease.....






Mrs. B

[1whowaits]

Seeker, i am looking at what Ezek describes as the state of Israel prior to Gog and then postulating what it would take for us to get there from here. Ezekiel states that Israel is peaceful and unsuspecting and dwelling in security in the land. It would appear likely that if Israel is peaceful and unsupecting of Gog, considering the goals of Islam toward Israel, that Gog is not a muslim.

Also Israel being peaceful and secure in her land would not be consistent with what scriptures describes as the time before armageddon, prior to armageddon Satan pursues Israel to destroy her and Israel flees into the wilderness, and there is no peace as Dan 11 describes. Also there are siginificant differences between Gog-Magog and armageddon (Gog killed and buried vs the AC captured and cast alive into the lake of fire) which would make it more likely that 2 separate battles are being described.

So based on armageddon and Gog-magog being described differently, and Israel being unsuspecting and at peace prior to Gog, one could conclude that Gog occurs prior to the middle of the week, prior to the GT, the details would point to that.

Could Gog-Magog occur now as described in Ezek? I don't believe so. The nations described at Gog are some distance from Israel and would take some time for them to gather and arrive in Israel. If Iran, Lybia, Sudan, Turkey began gathering forces and marching on Israel, Israel would have warning of their approach and Israel could destroy them.

The conventional forces of the nations surrounding Israel don't have a great track record for winning battles, and they are non nuclear. If Israel was threatened by an advancing force she would use nuclear weapons and would wipe out the muslim forces long before they reached Israel. Pakistan is the only muslim nuclear state but she would be unlikely to use them against Israel as India is more of a threat to Pakistan than Israel. And Israel likely has more nuclear weapons than Pakistan with more advanced delivery systems.

So the muslims can get together and form a caliphate today, but at this time they can be incinerated by Israel if she so desires, she does not care about world opinion when her existence is at stake. So Gog would be unlikely to occur today, the conditions are not yet right, something has to change.

So based on todays conditions the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, Gog, is one in the future, not necessarily the one of today. Who will be the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal in the future? We don't know yet, so it cannot be said that Gog is a muslim, and the conditions of Ezek do appear to confirm that.

While an attack by the nations listed in Ezek at Gog-magog would give Israel ample warning, an attack by the nations immediately surrounding Israel would not, a surprise attack could be launched with little or no warning from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon or Jordan. And these nations are described together in the destruction of Damascus event while they are not described and are apparently absent at the Gog-Magog event.

One could envision that after the destruction of Damascus, peace would be imposed by the quartet and nuclear weapons would be removed from the ME. Then the stage would be set for Gog, Israel would be peacful and unsuspecting if others guranteed her security, unless they were muslims, which would suggest that Gog is not.

Again the details of scripture tell the story, both the similarities and the diffeences, they all must line up for the picture to emerge. And similar events can occur twice, Gog-Magog and armageddon can appear similar and occur at separate times, and the details of scripture would point to this.

[extravagantchristian]

Good post 1ww, are you thinking Gog is the US? If so, then our "judgment" would not happen until after Gog right? And when would you expect the 7 year peace deal to fit into all that?

[1whowaits]

EC, i am suggesting that we don't know who Gog or magog are, it is possible the US could be Magog. If that were the case then someone like BHO would be Gog, one who could appear to be a friend to Israel but at the same time have Muslim sympathies, one who the muslim nations would follow. But if the US is taken out before that time it is possible that Russia could fulfill the role of Magog and someone like Putin could be Gog. It is too early to tell who Gog and Magog are, but because Gog sees Israel as unsuspecting, it is unlikely that Gog is an obvious muslim.

[shorttribber]

EC, i am suggesting that we don't know who Gog or magog are, it is possible the US could be Magog. If that were the case then someone like BHO would be Gog, one who could appear to be a friend to Israel but at the same time have Muslim sympathies, one who the muslim nations would follow. But if the US is taken out before that time it is possible that Russia could fulfill the role of Magog and someone like Putin could be Gog. It is too early to tell who Gog and Magog are, but because Gog sees Israel as unsuspecting, it is unlikely that Gog is an obvious muslim.

That there is interesting stuff They're just good ole boys ya know, they just want change..........

[Jericho]

One could envision that after the destruction of Damascus, peace would be imposed by the quartet and nuclear weapons would be removed from the ME. Then the stage would be set for Gog, Israel would be peacful and unsuspecting if others guranteed her security, unless they were muslims, which would suggest that Gog is not.

Were on the same track here. This is how I see thing playing out and feel free to agree\disagree:

Psalm 83\Isaiah 17:A major regional war with Israel's neighbors. Israel's back is against the wall and they retaliate with with everything they have. The result is Damascus is destroyed and Israel wins.

I suspect in the aftermath Israel will gain ALOT of territory which would explain why the Magog invasion force is so large. Other consequences would be international pressure for her to give up her nukes and possibly disband her military altogether in favor of a multinational force (who will undoubtedly jump ship when they see the Magog invasion coming).

Seeing Israel conquer her Muslim neighbors, gain in wealth and territory would be the incentive for the rest of the Muslim nations in the 10/40 window to attack. With no nukes and possibly no military of her own, Israel would be a sitting duck. America is either unwilling or unable to help at this point.This is where God intervenes supernaturally and destroys Gog\Magog.

Islam is defeated, the Muslim faith would be shattered. This leaves room for the 3rd temple to be built, greater influence by the AC, and possibly the Kings of the East filling the power vacuum in the middle-east. All of this of course leads to Armageddon.

[1whowaits]

Sword, couldn't have said it better myself, thanks for your summary.

[extravagantchristian]

One could envision that after the destruction of Damascus, peace would be imposed by the quartet and nuclear weapons would be removed from the ME. Then the stage would be set for Gog, Israel would be peacful and unsuspecting if others guranteed her security, unless they were muslims, which would suggest that Gog is not.

Were on the same track here. This is how I see thing playing out and feel free to agree\disagree:

Psalm 83\Isaiah 17:A major regional war with Israel's neighbors. Israel's back is against the wall and they retaliate with with everything they have. The result is Damascus is destroyed and Israel wins.

I suspect in the aftermath Israel will gain ALOT of territory which would explain why the Magog invasion force is so large. Other consequences would be international pressure for her to give up her nukes and possibly disband her military altogether in favor of a multinational force (who will undoubtedly jump ship when they see the Magog invasion coming).

Seeing Israel conquer her Muslim neighbors, gain in wealth and territory would be the incentive for the rest of the Muslim nations in the 10/40 window to attack. With no nukes and possibly no military of her own, Israel would be a sitting duck. America is either unwilling or unable to help at this point.This is where God intervenes supernaturally and destroys Gog\Magog.

Islam is defeated, the Muslim faith would be shattered. This leaves room for the 3rd temple to be built, greater influence by the AC, and possibly the Kings of the East filling the power vacuum in the middle-east. All of this of course leads to Armageddon.

Sounds logical.
Where do we think the 7 year peace covenant and AOD fit into all this?

[1whowaits]

EC, after Gog-Magog Islam would be defeated and Israel would rise in prominence and authority as it would be apparent to all that God acted on behalf of Israel. Israel would then return to God in the way of her forefathers and would likely rebuild the temple and begin the sacrificial system again. And in Ezek a 7 year period is described after Gog-Magog so that it may be that the 7 year confirming or strengthening of the Covenant occurs sometime after Gog.

It is my opinion that the covenant that is strengthened is the Old Covenant, and according to Moses in Deut it was to be read before the people and in a sense 'strengthened' every 7 years. In the context of Israel rebuilding the temple and re-instituting the sacrifical system, the renewing of the Old Covenant would also be done, and as Moses instructed that would occur at 7 year intervals. And this scenario could explain why the AC sets himself up in the rebuilt temple, in the eyes of Israel and the world the Temple will have great significance.

[extravagantchristian]

Luke 21:20
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

[slick]

Luke 21:20
“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

that appears to be in the beginning stages right now. And according to an independent translation that I have this is the pre cursor to the AOD as seen in the word "DESOLATION"

though many people equate Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse as detailing AD 70 I believe close scrutiny shows that He is writing parallel to Matthew & mark.

If the world declares Palestine a nation this August as reported, it would seem due to heightened worries a (false) peace keeping force would be placed in Israel, which would likely be GOG-MAGOG.

GOD- BLESS

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!,
Clarence

[Exit40]

I'm doing a different study and I ran across this tidbit for our discussion.

What is more disturbing to me, however, and once again ties in with a remark shorttribber made about ‘where are the cattle’?

The US has walls and gates...but not greatly so as Israel does for their enormous security needs........The US is the land spoken of in verses 11 and 12. The attack will happen nearly at the same time IMO.

Anybody ever see vast numbers of cattle in the MIDST of Israel.......anyone?...............Anybody ever see VAST numbers of cattle in the MIDST of the US?.............

Israel, 1948

Today the Jezreel Valley is a green fertile plain, covered with fields of wheat, cotton, sunflowers and corn, as well as great grazing tracts for multitudes of sheep and cattle. The area is governed by the Jezreel Valley Regional Council.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezreel_Valley

Just saying, regarding gog, a nice spoil food wise.

God Bless

David

[Seeker]

Hi 1whowaits,

Seeker, i am looking at what Ezek describes as the state of Israel prior to Gog and then postulating what it would take for us to get there from here.

While you are postulating you are failing to see what "there" is. Before we postulate let's look at the facts Ezekiel 39 gives us. At the very end of Ezekiel 39 we are given some information regarding the house of Israel.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

God sets His glory among the heathen and "all" the heathen will see God's judgment that He has executed. So after the Gog Magog war "all" the heathen/nations will have seen the judgment of God on Gog and company. The house of Israel will know that God is the Lord from that day forward. So at the end of the Gog conflict Israel knows God forever after.

Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

The nations will know Israel went into captivity for their iniquity and God hid His face from them while they fell by the sword.

Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

After Israel has borne her shame God will have mercy upon them and they will dwell safely in their land at the conclusion of the Gog war.

Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

At the end of the Gog war they will be gathered out of their enemies lands and God is sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. They will know that He is the Lord and caused them to be led into captivity. But He has gathered them into their own land after the Gog war.

Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God will not hide His face from them after the Gog war for He has poured out His spirit upon the house of Israel. Israel returns to their own land and to their Lord after the Gog war. We know when God pours His spirit upon Israel.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The Gog battle is the last battle ever in Israel. At it's conclusion Israel returns to the Lord and He pours His spirit out upon them. Eze 38 shows mountains being thrown down and every creature on earth shaking at the presence of God. This occurs at the conclusion of the Gog war. Jesus returns when the spirit is poured out upon Israel in Zec 12. That sets the timing for us which matches the implied timing set forth in Eze 39 by the gathering of Israel back to their land after the last dispersion caused by Gog. They are living peacefully in Israel both before and after the Gog war. No one will ever attack them again after the Gog war because God will no longer hide His face from them and has poured His spirit out upon them. Since Gog is the last to ever attack Israel he is the AC and chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. Meshech and Tubal are very specific locations in what we know as Turkey today. So rather than trying to guess who and when Gog is we simply can look to Ezekiel 38-39 to tell us both the origin and timing of Gog and that timing is the end of the last 7 years for the end of the Gog battle as clearly shown in Ezekiel 39.

Peace,
Seeker

[1whowaits]

Seeker, you make several assumptions in the latter part of your post that i would disagree with, the Gog battle is Israel's last battle? Where is that indicated in scripture? Because God does not hide His face and Israel knows God Israel will never fall away or be attacked again? That would be inconsistent with much of the OT. Where is Jesus' return described in Ezek 38 and 39, He is described prominently in Zech 14 and Rev 19. And God can pour out His spirit on Israel only once?

It appears that you see limitations that i do not believe scripture indicates. God can pour our His Spirit on Israel more than once, Israel can return to God and then fall away, the earth can shake and mountains fall down more than once (if you notice in Ezek 38 the shaking occurs in Israel), and there can be more than one battle in Israel during the time of the end.

And as there are signficant differences between Gog-Magog and armageddon which cannot be explained (ie Gog killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive and cast into the lake of fire, the conditions in Israel prior to Gog vs armageddon, etc.), it would appear that Gog and armageddon are 2 separate events. And as they are 2 separate events there apparently will also be some parallels in events at the end, Gog = small scale preview, armageddon = large scale and much, much worse.

[mark s]

If you take Ez. 39:9-16 as signifying an actual 7 year space between the preceding passage and the following passage, it all makes sense, and it's a straightforward plain reading of the text.

Love in Christ,
Mark

[Exit40]

Hi 1whowaits...

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Yes, the Lord can pour out His Spirit many times over time, but the above passage indicates a certain finality, don't you think ?

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; [Art] thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days [many] years that I would bring thee against them?

Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.

God Bless

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, Ezek 36:20 makes clear what God is referring to when Israel profanes His name-'wherever they went among the nations they profande my holy name, for it was said of them, 'these are the Lord's people, and yet they had to leave his land.' Profaning the name would refer to Israel sinning, God exiling them out of their land among the nations, and the nations mocking that the people of the Lord could not stay in the land, implying that the Lord was not strong enough to protect His own people.

And after gog the Lord's name will not be profaned again because He will not exile them from the land ever again, but He will take them to a place prepared for them in the wilderness prior to armageddon. It does not mean Israel will never be attacked again or that Israel will never leave the land again, just that God will not exile them again, which is what Ezek 39 appears to be referring to.

And as far as the Lord pouring out His Spirit on Israel, i believe scripture indicates 2 different instances of the Spirit being poured out. I believe Joel 2 also describes Gog-Magog, the attack by the northern army that God defeats, and after the battle the Spirit is poured out on men and women, young and old, sons and daughters, on individuals who prophesy and dream dreams. It is not clear whether this pouring out is accompanied by faith in Christ or if it is similar to the OT pouring out of the spirit on the 70 elders, Samson, etc that did not necessarily result from faith in Christ.

On the other hand at armageddon, as described in Zech 12, the people of Israel mourn for Christ, the One who was pierced, by clans, implying a national acceptance of Jesus as Messiah and King, and the Spirit of grace and supplication is poured out, implying acceptance of Christ leading to salvation.

So there would appear to be 2 different types of pouring out of the Spirit, one on individuals who dream dreams and prophesy and a pouring out of a Spirit of grace on the nation when the mourn and accept Christ.

[1whowaits]

Exit, yes that passage is interesting, that the prophets have spoken of Gog elsewhere in scripture. This would suggest that Gog is known by another name, he is really another indivudual that is not recognized as Gog. As Gog is killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured alive and thrown into the lake of fire before the 1,000 years (unlike any other human), Gog is clearly not the AC, the means of their respective destructions are completely different.

We know little about Gog but what we do know we might be able to associate with certain passages of scripture that mention characteristics consistent with those of Gog. Gog is from the land of Magog, the location of which is not completely clear, Magog could have been in what is now Russia or eastern Turkey. If Magog were in eastern Turkey, east of Meshech and Tubal, it may have been located within the borders of the Babylonian empire at the time of Ezekiel, suggesting a possible association between Gog and Babylon.

Another characteristic of Gog is that he is killed and buried in a mass grave with his troops, and Isa 14 appears to describe such an individual- 'All the kings of the nations lie in state, each in his own tomb, you are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch, you are covered by the slain, with those pierced by the sword...like a corpse trampled underfoot, you will not join them in burial, for you destroyed your land and killed your people.'

The individual that Isa 14 describes, that appears to not be buried in the usual tomb of kings but is covered by other dead that have beem killed by the sword, likely soldiers, consistent with the depiction of Gog, is known as the King of Babylon. And there are many other references in the OT to the king of Babylon, some of which may be also describing Gog.

Who is the king of Babylon now? Would that king side with those who would attack Israel? Would that king destroy his land and his people? 'A dire vision has been shown to me: The traitor betrays, the looter takes loot...Babylon has falllen, has fallen!...' Isa 21.

[1whowaits]

Mark, i am thinking that all of Ezekiel 38 and 39 will occur in the context of Gog-Magog approximately 7 years prior to armageddon. And i think this will be one of the big unexpected 'twists' of prophecy, Gog-Magog will be believed to be armageddon setting the stage for the 70th week. The events have significant differences but the parallels will be there, there will be nations that gather against Israel, and evil leader that the world fears, God will be seen as intervening on Israel's behalf, there will be a Babylon destroyed, there will be great destruction, but there will be no return of Christ after Gog-Magog.

Who will suspect the AC's rise to power if the AC has already been killed (supposedly)? Who would suspect the appearance of Satan if prophecy has already been fulfilled? Who would believe the Bible or christians anyway if Jesus did not return when He was prophesied to do so (supposedly)?

The Gog-Magog mistaken for armageddon scenario could explain several aspects mentioned in scripture, a great turning away from the faith, killing of christians (Judaism would be prominent), the repeated references to christians not watching or being asleep or being unaware of the time of the return when specific numbers of days are mentioned in scripture (where is the promise of His coming...?).

Those who watched in the OT were somewhat confused because they did not realize that the scripture was describing 2 separate comings of the same Messiah. Some could be confused in the future because they don't realize that what scripture appears to describe as the same event actually is 2 separate and different events that have some similar characterisitics. The theme between the comings of the Messiah and Gog-magog/armageddon could be the same, that which appears to be 1 event is actually 2.

[mark s]

Here are some of my reasons for thinking that the last part of Ezekiel 39 can only be fulfilled by Armageddon:

Vs. 18 refers to "the rulers of the earth", compare to the list of nations in Ez. 38.

Vs. 20 speaks of "all the men of war".

Vs. 21 says that "all the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them."

So then, while Gog/Magog involves this limited list of nations invading Israel, this latter portion is "all nations", like in Zechariah 14, where all nations shall come against Jerusalem.

Vs. 25 tells us that God will "return the captivity of Jacob", that is, bring them back to their land. It goes on, God "will have mercy on the whole house of Israel".

This would be a complete gathering, according to vs. 28, "I have gathered them to their own land, and have not left any of them there any more", that is, among the nations.

Isaiah give us a key to this part:

Isaiah 11:11 "And it shall be in that day, the Lord shall again set His hand, the second time, to recover the remnant of His people that remains"

The first was after the Babylonian captivity, the second when Jesus returns.

In verse 29 (Ezekiel again), "I have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel", this, at least to me, only makes sense after the great tribulation, then they are saying "blessed is He Who comes in the Name of the LORD", and when Zechariah also says that God "pour out upon the house of David" "a spirit of graces and prayers".

Love in Christ,
Mark

[mark s]

BTW . . . I would not be surprised to see the Gog/Magog war touted as Armageddon, leading to just such a deception as you outlined.

[1whowaits]

Mark, Isa 11 is an interesting passage in the list of areas Israel is regathered from -'Assyria, from Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush, from Elam, from Babylonia, from Hamath and from the islands of the sea.' After the Babylonian captivity Israel was regathered from the area of Babylon which was then really Medo-Persia, and Assyria no longer existed, it had been conquered by Babylon.

Why is Medo-Persia not mentioned? Could it be that this is referencing a time after the Babylonian captivity and the old names of nations are used merely to identify the widespread areas Israel is regathered from, not necessarily the nations in existence at the time of regathering? Also several areas beyond and distant from Babylon are described, this would appear to be much more than a regathering from the Babylonian captivity.

The regathering of Israel after armageddon from these areas would make sense, those in Jersalem are taken into captivity prior to armageddon according to Zech 14. The areas they are regathered from would be current nations but the old names of nations that Isa would be familiar with would be used.

So if Israel will be regathered twice from these distant areas, the 2nd of the regatherings occurring after armageddon and the other not being consistent with the Babylonian captivity, when does the 1st regathering occur? I believe it has been going on over the past 60 years and will be completed in full after Gog-Magog.

[1whowaits]

Mark, as far as the references to the nations in Ezek 39, some of the references could be interpreted as referring only to the limited number of nations gathered at Gog- 'of the princes of the earth' could refer to a limited number, not necessarily 'all the princes of the earth'.

But i would agree with you that 'all the nations' are referenced at 1 point- 'all the nations will see the punishment I inflict and the hand I lay upon them.' I would agree that this does appear to state that all nations will see God's punishment and will feel the weight of His hand of punishment upon them, the destruction at Gog-Magog and the resulting punishment will be felt by all the nations.

The first trumpet of Rev 8 describes 'hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up...' Which does appear somewhat similar to Ezek 38- 'I will execute judgement upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur...I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in the coastlands.'

I believe that the first trumpet may be describing Gog-Magog, the first event, the description is somewhat similar. The 2nd trumpet describes a 2nd event, a mountain being cast into the sea (asteriod strike), the 3rd wormwood, the 4th the partial darkening of the sun and moon.

If the 1st trumpet is describing Gog-Magog, then the punishment that follows will be felt by all the nations of the world. And armageddon does not appear to occur until the last trumpet. All the nations can see God's punishment and they can experience the weight of His punishment years before armageddon occurs in the form of the trumpets.


And as far as the pouring out of the Spirit, it would appear likely to occur more than once, it does occur at armageddon in Zech 12. But it would also appear appropriate at the sealing of the 144,000, their sealing does appear to refer to the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and this does appear to occur prior to armageddon. Pouring out of the Spirit would appear likely whenever Israel returns to the Lord, as she does at armageddon and also at Gog-magog-'They will know that I am the Lord their God...I will pour out my spirit...'

Also Ezek 39:26 refers to Israel being unfaithful and living in saftey in their land with no one to make them afraid. This would not be consistent with the state of Israel prior to armageddon when Satan is pursuing Israel to destroy her and she is in the wilderness. But it would be consitent with the condition of Israel prior to Gog-Magog, and as this is mentioned in the latter part of Ezek 39, i believe it is more likely that all of Ezek 39 is describing Gog-Magog.

[Exit40]

We can discuss this til the cows come home, ( yes I'm that old ), and not reach agreement. The real issue is, what do the Jews believe ? Seems to me, as they are central to all of this, their beliefs will be critical to what befalls them.

As an aside, I was noticing in Eze 38:8,11, and 14, and 39:6 the words " Yashab Betach " are used to describe Israel dwelling safely, and in 39:6 the very same words are used to describe those in the isles as dwelling carelessly. There is the implication with " Betach " that there is an over confidence in one's own security, to the point of being without caution even. Anyone care to have a go at that one ?

Also...

Eze 39:5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

Open field can be called the Plain of Acco on the Northern coast, with Tel Meggido at the pass into the Jezreel Valley going East, which has an Eastern pass into the Jordan Valley. There is also the coastal plain which runs the length of Israel's coast. The Valley of Decision, Jehosaphat's Valley, aka Kidron Valley, begins between the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives, and runs to the Jordan Valley also. That's a lot of open field folks, and something to consider.

Here are a few links to help gain perspective.

Ancient Levant routes
Israel topo map
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of_Jehosephat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidron_Valley

God Bless You

David

[1whowaits]

Exit, Israel dwelling carelessly in security would not appear to be consistent with the condition of Israel during the latter half of the 70th week prior to armageddon when Satan is trying to destroy her and she is taken to a place in the wilderness, apparently outside of the land.

Also Gog is buried in 'the valley of those who travel east towards the sea', the eastern sea being the Dead Sea. There is a valley that runs from Jerusalem down toward the Jordan and the road in that valley, highway 1, i think they call it the Jericho road also, is the most common route taken from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea, and would meet the criteria of being the vslley of those who travel east toward the sea.

The burial place of Gog and his hoards would likely not be far from the place that they fall, so it would appear likely that they are killed close to the route that leads to the Dead Sea, in the mountains down to an open field -'On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and your troops and the nations with you... you will fall in the open field.. Ezek 39.

The mountains would be those in the eastern part of the tiny nation and the open field could refer to the area of the Jordan, the bodies could pile up from Jerusalem to the Jordan.

Until the cows come home? Where do they go when they are not at home?

[mark s]

Why would we not accept that "the rulers of the earth" were exactly that?

Should we understand "all the men of war" to really mean "some of the men of war"?

"All the nations shall see My judgments which I have done, and My hand that I have laid on them." Collateral damage? The way I read this, it will be God's hand laid upon all the nations, as judgments described in this passage, i.e. the destruction of their armies.

As far as the pouring out of the Spirit, I don't see where the sealing of the 144,000 includes God pouring out His Spirit upon the "house of Israel". This sealing is specifically limited. I suppose there could be an unlimited number of times God pours out His Spirit upon the house of Israel, but the only time I really see named in Scripture is when Jesus returns, and gathers Israel back to the land, never to be driven out again.

Israel living in safety, with none to terrify them will be the result of the regathering. None will terrify them ever again. And that's exactly how the text presents it.

Well, like I said earlier, this view resolves all the difficulties I've had with this passage previously, takes in a simple, literal reading of the passage, and harmonizes with other passages.

I appreciate that you see this differently, I merely wished to express my views for whomever it may benefit.

Love in Christ,
Mark