Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

[mark s]

Kings and kingdoms are here used interchangeably.

[Douggg]

Kings and kingdoms are here used interchangeably.

Hi Mark, If you mean in Daniel 7 that those four beasts metaphorically represent both four kings and four kingdoms? I agree with that.

But it does not say that the four kings are four kingdoms does it?

Kings and kingdoms are here used interchangeably.....with the beasts, but not each other.

Doug L.

[Stephen]

Hi TexasBeliever,

That is a very interesting site you linked to. Particularly the metonic cycles!

Unfortunately, your link didn’t quite work – although, obviously, I found it!

Here is the link you gave again:

http://endtimepilgrim.org/metonic.htm

And the main page of the site:

http://endtimepilgrim.org/

Thanks for info.

God Bless.

Steve

[Stephen]

Hi Guys,

Kings, kingdoms, beasts, shmeests …!

I think we’re in danger of becoming a little too literal in certain points.

Whatever interpretations we adhere to, the Bible is clearly speaking about powerful forces and powers that effect the earth, and, in particular, God’s people.

Those powers and forces tend to manifest upon the earth (though powered from ‘beyond’ the earth!) in the form of ‘people groupings’ (to borrow Orange Mailman’s useful phrase), which, when they become very powerful, we recognises as Nations and Empires.

Nations and Empires all have hierarchical structures. The classic ‘pyramid’ of control.

The top of the pyramid we can call Governor, Ruler, Emperor or King! The substance – the reality of more or less autocratic power – remains the same.

It’s up to you which interpretation(s) you feel most comfortable with, but I would suggest that the historical interpretations of Daniel 2, 7, 9 and 11 are incontestably clear. So much so that to call the meshing of these figurative and symbolic visions so closely with historic fact as being ‘not true’ or even ‘just coincidence’, seems strangely blind to me.

You may not agree with the historic interpretation, and prefer other interpretations, but the historical correspondence is plainly there.

So much so, in fact, and particularly in Daniel, that the accuracy of history with prophecy – even to unbelievers – has itself been used as a ‘proof’ that the Bible was ‘constructed’ in the 4th or 5th Centuries AD! (I have even come across those saying it was written in the Middle Ages!)

Critics actually said that prophecy COULD NOT BE THAT ACCURATE! And on that basis they questioned the ancient authorship of the books of the Bible. In particular the Book of Daniel!

But I would say that we are all getting glimpses into the truth.

Because I am now firmly convinced that prophecy is multi-dimensional, and contains ‘foreshadowings’ of future events by earlier similar events of the same ‘type’.

So that the 10 kingdoms (‘people-groupings’), if we apply the term ‘horns’ to them, that unquestionably arose across Europe when the power of Imperial Rome collapsed in 476, and within which a powerful ‘little horn’ – Papal Rome – arose, also foreshadows the 10 kingdoms that will form the 10 regions of the New World Order (already defined!) and within which the power of a now controlled (demonically) Papacy is already arising. A Papacy once thought dead and finished! ‘Wounded, as it were, to death! It has re-arisen (Lateran Treaty 1929), and is re-arising now within the 10 ‘kingdoms’ of the End Times. Just as it did in the 5th and 6th Centuries AD.

By the way, it’s not quite true to say Rome NEVER had kings. It did. But Rome dispensed with formal ‘kings’ at the end of the 5th Century BC – because of their excesses!

Rome went on, however, to be ruled by Emperors and Caesars (from which the German title ‘Kaiser’ was derived) that were even more given to excess! (Some of them.)

So this clearly shows how the ‘name’ can change, but the ‘substance’ (power and function) remain the same.

And Rome was undoubtedly understood by everyone – even to this day – to have been the centre of a ‘Roman Empire’. Hence the old saying:

“All roads lead to Rome.”

I’m fairly sure sure they will again. To some extent at least.

One final time!

God Bless,

Steve

[Exit40]

Here is another explanation of the 360 day calender, plus some other neat stuff.

http://www.360calendar.com/

God Bless

David

[Stephen]

Hi Exit40,

Thanks for the link. Truly fascinating stuff!

But now for something a little more sombre! (Unfortunately. Comes of living in the ‘End Times’ I suppose!)

‘The Devil is at work.’

That is the title of a six minute video clip, an interview with Fr Rufus Pereira – Vice-President of The Association of Exorcists.

When asked about Pope Paul VI's declaration (in 1972) that “the smoke of Satan has entered the Church,” Father Pereira replied that it is “110 percent true!”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TeujrL0eBE&feature=related

These men know, as a matter of their daily experience, that they – and we! – are in a war! And that it is happening now!

They know the time of the final confrontations is close.

They are fighting for souls … and for the survival of a true Church!

Believe me that in the posts in which I have spoken of the ‘Papacy’ as being the Anti_Christ – both in history and to come! – I am not attacking the Catholic Church, nor many of its very Godly servants.

But because of the immense political power it wields (approx 1.4 billion adherents world-wide(!), who listen to the words of the Pope and his officers) it has been infilitrated by ‘the Lodge’ – the Satanic head of Freemasonry.

It was decided by Satan’s agents centuries ago to stop attempting to destroy the Church, but rather to infiltrate and gain control of it. Then to wield its geo-political power from within. (The plan, by the way, is eventually to move its HQ to Jerusalem! So that everything fits very neatly in peoples’ minds.)

If you want to learn of this listen to the seven part presentation by Father Paul Kramer here: (Part 1 below starts off a playlist, so they load and run automatically in sequence)

Father Paul Kramer - The Fatima Challenge Pt1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toALVH6wdiA&p=724A77283D0559DF

The above presentation (recorded in May 2010) is really ‘required viewing’ if you want to come up to date with the ‘infiltration’ of the Papacy and the current analysis of world events (past and present) – and were we are soon about to go! It’s not pretty.

Fr Kramer reads from some historical documents that are not generally spoken about (in the mainstream!), and that detail the plans laid centuries ago. Plans that it was known at the time would take many generations to come to fruition. (Satan and his demons do not die!)

They are happening now.

Fr Kramer also quotes a chilling expression. He talks first about a soon to come 3rd World War (Russia and China v America and Europe. All as planned!), which will see appalling death levels (Satan and his demons power up on blood!), but will not be the worst of the horror.

The real horror he says will follow, under the brutal, ‘collectivist’ rule that will be globally established over what remains of the world. He quotes a ‘middle eastern’ prophet called Zachary:

“Then the whole world shall fall under the dominion of the First-Born of Hell!”

That will be the ‘great tribulation.’

When will these events begin?

My own feeling is that they are even closer than I had thought up until a short while ago.

Watching all the incredible ‘news’ around the world, and having learned of the ‘ticking time bombs’ – like global famine (crop and fishing failures!) and international monetary collapse – I would say that we are no more than a couple of years away.

Maybe less.

And although it will be more terrible than anything previously seen, we must remember Our Lord’s words:

“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” (Luke 21: 28)

God Bless,

Steve

[Stephen]

Hi Guys,

I have been watching the exchanges between Douggg and Orange Mailman in their posts (‘Daniel 8, the little horn’ and ‘Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms’) with interest.

I love the study of history myself. I always have. But now I know why … because it is the unfolding of Our Father’s Creation in space and time. (Our Father who is BEYOND ‘space and time’, and sees events unfolded like – analogously – a helicopter pilot watches the beginning, middle and end of a carnival parade, all at the same time.)

So I have nearly ‘jumped in’, but don’t think I should, because my perspectives and understanding are clearly different – although much in agreement with historical analysis.

I will sum up my ‘take’ at the moment:

THERE IS NO RAPTURE OR DEFINED 7 YEARS OF TRIBULATION! to come.

I put that in capitals because I know it could be a shock to see in print for many Christians who accept ‘rapture teachings’, and the endless discussions around it (pre- mid- or post- ) as ‘GOSPEL’.

A clear teaching of a rapture is NOT Biblical, and is actually arrived at by ‘cutting and pasting’ various verses and gluing them together under pre-conceived notions!

This is the deceptive work of Satan. Who will deceive, if it were possible, even the Elect!

Despite desperate claims of individual ‘teachers’ in the early centuries teaching it, the teachings of a ‘rapture’ (and, yes, I know the Latin Vulgate commissioned by Pope Damasus the First in 382 AD uses the term ‘rapiemor’) began in the early 1800s, and most certainly did connect with the VISIONS of Margaret MacDonald. And those facts alone, if you have read my earlier posts in this thread – and followed up with your own research – should make you feel very wary indeed!

The full 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled by the rejection of Our Lord’s teachings in 34 AD when Stephen (yes, I know! Makes me feel edgy! Lol!) was stoned to death!

The official body of the Sanhedrin repudiated the gospel teachings very forcibly at that time – Stephen had given them a history lesson … well worth reading (Acts, Chpt. 7) – and they ‘rent their clothes’ and stoned him to death. Saul (St Paul) looked after the clothes of those who stoned Stephen. (Stephen actually saw Christ STANDING beside His Father’s throne. Our Lord had come to His feet at this pivotal time in Hebrew and World history.)

The 70th week (7 years) begins with Our Lord’s baptism by John in 27 AD – ‘anointing’ of the ‘Prince’; the word ‘Prince’ indicates the Son of a King! – witnesses his Crucifixion in the middle of the period – cutting off – and, as a result of the Jewish official repudiation of Our Lord’s teaching – the condemnation and stoning of Stephen – ends in 34 AD.

The Jews were given a ‘typical’ command by Our Father, messaged to Daniel by the Angel Gabriel. I.e. (to put it colloquially!) Sort it out and recognise the Messiah … and good things will come to you. OR, fail to sort it out – as happened many times before – and you will end up in ‘a world of hurt!’ You’ve got 70 weeks! (Prophetic weeks – a day for a year.)

The Jews, as a matter of history, failed to ‘sort it out’ when their Messiah arrived, and the desolations foretold then fell into place. It’s been a rough ride for the Jewish people ever since! Hopefully, that will soon all be over.

I can’t see how it gets much clearer.

NOW …

By refusing to see prophecy unfolded and Daniel’s 70 weeks done, dusted, finished and ended by 34 AD, satanically misled theologians have foisted a totally false belief system on the whole of Christendom.

RAPTURE THEOLOGY!

So now, Daniel’s prophecy is surgically diced, and the crucial last week – 7 years – which positively screams to be read as the Baptism, Crucifixion, Rejection of the Gospel, (and actually works out as 483 solar years from 457 BC, which year was the year the actual ROYAL AUTHORITY to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was decreed by Longimanus, and which Nehemiah CONTINUED after Ezra!) is pushed into an INDETERMINATE future!

BUT …

We continue further with Satan’s fantasy …

We now read that 70th week (7 years) as referring to Anti-Christ, not THE Christ. So Anti- (or Pseudo- or Replacement-) Christ has actually done as his name means – i.e. he has replaced the Christ – the Messiah – this time in prophecy!

So now we have to construct a scenario …

Here it is:

An Anti-Christ will appear on the scene (a suave political genius! So NO ONE we yet recognise! BIG SURPRISE!) who will make a ‘covenant with many’ (which was actually the Covenant made by Our Lord with all those who believe on Him) for 7 years (the lost week!), which we suppose to be a political treaty between Israel and the Arabs, and which he will ‘break’ (we here re-interpret the ‘cutting off’ of Our Lord at His Crucifixion), and cause the ‘abomination of desolation.’ Here we re-interpret the time limits Our Father gave to the Jews to recognise and establish their Messiah – i.e. “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness.”

As we all know – history again – the Jews failed to recognise and receive their Messiah – the official Judaism/Sanhedrin failed, that is; the Apostles and early Evangelists were all Jewish, apart from Luke – and a world of hurt followed for that poor people as a whole.

MEANWHILE …

The clear and present danger of the REAL anti-Christ power pursues its agenda of ecumenism (the great apostasy) and geo-political clout virtually unnoticed by the whole of Christendom …

… who are too busy arguing about when in the fictitious 7 year period of tribulation they are going to be deliriously RAPTURED!

What foolishness!

Do you not now see it?

Or is it ‘game, set and match’ to Satan?

It will be …

… for all those who fail to WAKE UP and actually see what is going on!

How many of you noticed this?

Three ex-Anglican bishops are received into full communion

The launching of the ‘Ordinariate’!

“I was surprised to see that even John Broadhurst, baptised a Catholic, was received along with the rest. They were then confirmed – some in accord with tradition took confirmation names; one of the former bishops took Benedict, another Joseph, others used their baptismal names – and they returned to their places to gentle applause. One of the sisters, descending the steps grinned at the congregation and gave two thumbs up.
“We all received Communion (five of our new brethren, including all three former bishops, on the tongue) and, lo, it was done. We are in communion.
“The Ordinariate is launched very quietly and gently, slipping almost unnoticed into the water.”
Jeffrey Steel, a Catholic blogger and former Anglican priest, said: “The Mass was beautifully sung and parts of it were set to the Lourdes Mass. The Mass was very well attended.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/01/01/three-ex-anglican-bishops-are-received-into-full-communion/

The spider is spinning its web!


Wake up my Brothers and Sisters.

Shake off the deceptions.

The time is close now.

God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

THERE IS NO RAPTURE OR DEFINED 7 YEARS OF TRIBULATION! to come.

Hi Steven,

As I said before ,I agree with much you've said, but you've not answered why the word "rapture" can not be an adequate translation of the words "caught away".

If you mean, pre, mid or traditional pre-wrath "RAPTURE" then I agree........but scripture STRONGLY supports "shorttib/prewrath" and "post-trib".

The Ancient church wrote quite a great deal about being "caught up" to Christ in the clouds of the AIR........and it is quite clear they were not referring to anything other than LITERAL clouds and air.

I prefer to use the words "gathering" or "catching away" in place of "rapture" but that does not mean that the word "rapture" is inaccurate.

You're statement "NO RAPTURE" is inaccurate based on scripture and historic opinion......

I am primarily "historicist" and have many volumes of historicist commentaries and ancient church writings and they are generally ALL in agreement that there SHALL BE a LITERAL "catching away" into the "clouds of the air"..........AFTER.....a time of GREAT TRIBULATION........FUTURE......when we have our FINAL conflict with antichrist.

The Man of Sin could be in the form of successive Popes or a FINAL Pope or whoever but that does not change change the FACT that there SHALL BE a LITERAL "gathering to Christ" in the "clouds of the air", "rapture".

[Learning2follow]

Steve, I was wondering if you would be willing to go into the hornets nest and explain this to ALOT of unbelievers. I started a post with this video information and quoted your writings but am woefully unprepared to handle the questions if the thread survives. Your explanations of this video have done more for my spirit than you can ever know and I appreciate you taking the time to post this here. Thanks
Garrett

[Stephen]

Hi Shorttribber,

Well, I’m not a linguist … so I have to rely on those who are.

The Greek word ‘harpazo’ – later translated as ‘rapiemor’ in the Latin Vulgate – appears to connote:

“to seize, carry off by force”
“to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly”
“to snatch out or away”

When I first came across these translations I had the image of someone being ‘snatched’ out of danger. Like a small child you see stepping into a road of busy traffic. You grab them … and snatch them out of harm’s way.

‘Rapture’ – I’m sorry to say (but I am a sinner!) – conjured up images of a new ‘love affair’, and that first, indescribable, orgasm!

The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17 – "we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur. (We get our Anglo-Saxon word ‘rapture’ from ‘rapiemor’ – hence people claim that ‘rapture is included in the Bible!)

Anyway, the same ‘meaning’ is underlying – i.e. to be ‘caught up’ or ‘snatched’ out of harm’s way. But we can probably agree that to be ‘snatched out of harm’s way’ and ‘to be raptured’ have a somewhat different emotional tone!

I mean, which one would you prefer?

To be ‘snatched away’?

Or ‘raptured’?

Now, you can say: “Yes, Steve. But they ARE both saying the same thing!”

To which I would reply: “Semantically there may be an equivalence. But in reality the message is as different as saying; ‘I love you’ and ‘I want to go to bed with you." (I did say I’m a sinner!)

Both ‘I love you’ and ‘I want to go to bed with you’ may result in coitus, but there may well be a very real difference in the underlying motivation. (And the emotional aftermath!)

Now the reason I am – somewhat graphically – going through all this, is simply to demonstrate the changes in thinking that can be provoked by the selection of a particular word.

Satan is a past master at this stuff!

(George Orwell was pretty good at recognising and demonstrating it also.)

So to come back to your question:

You're statement "NO RAPTURE" is inaccurate based on scripture and historic opinion......

Because of Satan’s ‘word games’ we have already gone way off the point!

We must NOT get involved in mere word games.

What I said in my post was that there will be NO future ‘harpazo’ as described in pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and post-tribulation THEORIES, that are based on Satan’s lies and deceit – seeded into Church thinking in 1830-40 – and that have managed to accumulate and build up around themselves a totally fictitious agenda of ‘Mr Anti-Christ Politician’, ‘seven years of tribulation’ (you say yourself: “Show me where this is in the Bible”), rebuilding of ‘the Temple’, ‘abomination of desolation’ (reneging on peace treaty!), etc.

C’mon mate!

Can’t you see it?

The real anti-Christ power is gaining in strength as we argue!

And the whole of the so-called ‘Christian world’ not only appears NOT to see it … but is actively applauding its manoeuvres!

I tell you …

… talk about a voice ‘crying in the wilderness!’

I know how John the Baptist felt!

I am ‘young’ in Christ – no more than 3 or 4 years. But I can’t help wondering now if that’s the way it was meant to be for me. Do I see everything with fresh eyes? I don’t know.

But I have lost nearly all of my friends.

And of those that are left, we have sort of tacitly agreed that we won’t talk about certain subjects.

Great.

You really need to take on board my earlier posts about Satan’s plans and deceptions. This is not ‘mythology’. This is very real! An ‘intelligence war’ of deception is currently being waged against us. And we are being decimated by it!

That is why I have linked you to the videos I have, especially the Exorcists. They KNOW who we are engaged with, and who we are fighting. And they KNOW the reality of the warfare!

I am primarily "historicist" and have many volumes of historicist commentaries and ancient church writings and they are generally ALL in agreement that there SHALL BE a LITERAL "catching away" into the "clouds of the air"..........AFTER.....a time of GREAT TRIBULATION........FUTURE......when we have our FINAL conflict with antichrist.

Show me any ‘commentaries’ by the ancient Church Fathers and the post-reformation teachers, that teach the ‘modern’ rapture theories. Any before 1840.

I can show you masses of popular books about Christ not really existing, never having existed (he was a composite myth!), being a homosexual, or being a great Avatar who learned all his stuff in India. Do you believe it?

Shorttribber … it is the time of ‘the great deception.’ We are in it. You and I. How shall we not be deceived without great care?

Now, I do agree that we Christians (the ‘saints’) that have endured to the end, and are alive on the Earth at the time of the Return of Our Lord, WILL be ‘caught up’ to be with Our Lord and our brethren. But that will be the day that Our Lord returns! And is nothing to do with a ‘stand-alone’ church rapture. (Although, of course, it will be a joyous and ‘rapturous’ day for those alive who are ‘caught up’ with the Lord.)

The next big event is probably going to be the massive earthquake prophesied in Revelation 6: 12:

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;”

I think this was pre-figured by the eruption (explosion) of Krakatoa in 1883.

The explosion was heard in southern Europe and New Zealand. Tsunamis and tidal waves (some said to have been as high as 30 metres!) devastated the Pacific Rim coastlines. Death tolls are estimated to have been as high as 20 million. (Though some put it in terms of hundreds of thousands.) Seas rushed inland up to 200 miles. The sky went dark. England kept her gaslights on for 3 days and nights. The weather was disrupted for years. Intense cold for the three years following the eruption. Crop failures and famine.

And Krakatoa is arising – and is active! – again.

Now known as Arak Krakatoa. The ‘Son of Krakatoa’.

Currently about 300 metres high it is increasing at the rate of about 6 metres per annum.

Some good photos here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1203028/Will-Krakatoa-rock-world-Last-time-killed-thousands-changed-weather-years-deadlier.html

Apparently you can go on ‘romantic’ barge trips around Anak Krakatoa at night, and enjoy watching the erupting lava plumes, and listening to the ‘strombolic’ rumblings, with your paramour!

Personally, I would have to be knocked unconscious and kidnapped to do such a thing.

Residents to be evacuated as Mt. Anak Krakatau spews ash
January 12, 2011

(link removed - mark s)

The strange blindness of the human race!


God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

quoting shorttribber...

I am primarily "historicist" and have many volumes of historicist commentaries and ancient church writings and they are generally ALL in agreement that there SHALL BE a LITERAL "catching away" into the "clouds of the air"..........AFTER.....a time of GREAT TRIBULATION........FUTURE......when we have our FINAL conflict with antichrist.

Show me any ‘commentaries’ by the ancient Church Fathers and the post-reformation teachers, that teach the ‘modern’ rapture theories. Any before 1840.

I'm not able at this time to cut and paste all the refs.....but here is a list, my stepson may help post actual quotations later.

Irenaeus.......180 ad
Tertullian in 198, 207, twice in 210........ad

All Historicist
Mathew Poole....before 1700
Mathew Henry....before 1700
Adam Clark.....before 1830
Albert Barnes....before 1830

Historicist after 1830
Robert Jamieson
Andrew Fausett
David Brown

Why not just give greater clarity to the reader by just explaining that the "word"...."rapture" was not used BEFORE 1830 but DOCTRINE of the "catching away to the clouds in the air" was most certainly taught and believed by ALL reformers and the ancients......just not the kind of escapist rapture teachings of the modern era?

So as not to add to the confusion, why not define your idea of "catching away" as simply a catching away AFTER our LAST CONFLICT with antichrist?

[Stephen]

Hi Garrett

Steve, I was wondering if you would be willing to go into the hornets nest and explain this to ALOT of unbelievers.

Yes.

But …

… in my experience so far, those who have decided to be ‘unbelievers’ are going to remain that way! (Absent the intervention of Our lord.)

I have not managed to convert/save one soul since my own commitment to Jesus Christ and Our Father 3 to 4 years ago!

In fact, people I had counted as close friends have distanced themselves from me. Because of my embracing of Our Lord. (And I don’t make a big production of it. I just state the facts when the subject comes up.) Some so-called friends are no longer in contact. By their decision.

I fitted in well because they are all ‘new age’ – and therefore think of themselves as ‘open-minded’, ‘revolutionary’, and ‘progressive’ – and I have a strong background in all of that!

To see what this ‘new age’ horror is all about you may like to watch this:

Gods of the New Age 1984

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6272335793596892362#

BUT …

…to uplift your heart …

Watch this:

Megiddo I The March to Armageddon

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2389537090809015806#

ADONAI!

That word/name is so beautiful.

We must ALL be WATCHMEN now! As mentioned in the opening to the above video.


Anyway, if you want me to join an email group, or whatever, give me the details. PM them (private message) if you prefer.

Otherwise, just refer the people you are dialoguing with back to here.

I hereby free you of all charges of ‘copyright violation’ of my posts!

And thank you for the kind words within your post.

God Bless,

Steve

[Stephen]

Hi Shorttribber

So as not to add to the confusion, why not define your idea of "catching away" as simply a catching away AFTER our LAST CONFLICT with antichrist?

Yes.

That seems to coincide.

I’m just a bit wary of – as I see it – wandering away from the clear Biblical teaching.

And I do – for myself – perceive a great deception being perpetrated under ‘rapture’ doctrine.

And I do perceive the ‘Papal Office’ to be the ‘Anti-Christ’. Historically, currently, and to come.

But I don’t think I have ever really understood what you are meaning by ‘short trib/pre-wrath’.

It could be that we are entirely in agreement over this. Just lost in polemics. (Satan loves all that!)

Anyway, Shorttribber, you are my brother in Christ.

Of that I have no doubt whatsoever.

We will see each other later.

God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

But I don’t think I have ever really understood what you are meaning by ‘short trib/pre-wrath’.

Stephen,

Look at the debate section just four of five items under this current thread.........Titled shorttrib/prewrath.......it's all there for your reading.

[Learning2follow]

Stephen,
So far it has actually been some pretty good questions, no "crazies" in the thread yet. With time running short and this such an important topic I just feel that any and all forums should be reached out too and let the chips fall were they may. The forum is very new age so some of the scoffers might enjoy your point of view and experiences. Like I said the page is only 1 page so far but if we keep it going I think we could really open some hearts to this. If there are others on there like me they are searching for Truth wherever it might be and what better way then this. Here is the web link (if thats allowed?)

(removed link per rule 4, no linking to other discussion boards)

Stephen, I don't know if the thread will go anywhere but if it's God's will to reach just one then the fight is well worth it. Put on the armor of God and lets go to work.

[Stephen]

Hi All,

I have referenced this in an earlier post.

But, having just watched it again myself, and in light of the things we have discussed (and are still discussing) in this thread, I really do urge you to watch it:

Megiddo I: The March to Armageddon

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2389537090809015806#


This Christian documentary (by Chris Pinto) covers just about everything we have discussed in this thread, and that we continue to discuss.

It also sets out history. In a clear and interesting fashion.

The ‘four beasts’ are mentioned. Given some of the posts and threads that are running, this should be of interest.

It is 2 hours and 16 minutes, but is worth setting time aside for.

Sit down with the spouse – and a glass of beer or hot chocolate – and enjoy.

I no longer have a spouse.

But I can usually find a beer!

(BTW … The ex-spouse and I are very good friends!)

God Bless,

Steve

[Douggg]

[quote="Stephen"]Hi Steve, the rapture is just a word for describing the event of 1thessalonians4:15-18. It is the joint event of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the changing of those Christians who are alive at the time, when it takes place.

That 1thess4:15-18 will take place is unassailable.

The big argument among Christians is concerning the timing. Not whether 1thess4:15-18 will take place.

It is the difference in belief regarding the timing that causes debates to no end on most Christian discussion boards. Those of us who have been here a long time are battle weary of those debates, so that is why you may not be getting the number of responses on the subject that you think appropriate to the subject matter. We more or less know each others position, the arguments behind each view, and acknowledge our differences.

Rapture debates can overtake any thread (which can be a problem if the thread was not started with the intent of discussing the Rapture. That's why there are three forums at this site called....Pre-wrath view only....Post trib view only....Pre-trib view only, to alleviate that problem. I realize that you started this thread in part to address the validity of the Rapture, so imo discussion of the rapture is designed into this thread.

Getting back to your scenario of the office of the Pope, who are the seven kings (the seven heads) in Revelation 7 ? Who is the eighth king to be, who was once alive, but dead at the time of John and in the bottomless pit? Perhaps you have said already, but I missed it.

Have you considered a lesser roll for the RCC and the Vatican, instead, as being the whore riding the beast in Revelation 17?

Doug L.

[Stephen]

Hi Doug

Rapture debates can overtake any thread (which can be a problem if the thread was not started with the intent of discussing the Rapture.

I agree entirely.

Although, I do wonder if this is mainly an American thing. I am not part of any denominational church yet, so I don’t know many ‘church-goers’, but no one here (the UK) who I have spoken to about these things has heard of ‘the rapture’. (Mind you, they haven’t heard of much else either! Just who’s hosting the next football World Cup, and who’s winning the equivalent of ‘American Idol!’)

But I was surprised when a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my door a few weeks ago, and when I asked them their view of ‘the rapture’ they just looked at me blankly. They had never heard of it. And when I briefly explained it to them they literally backed off down the path as I was talking, and virtually ran away! Quite funny really.

Anyway, I think I, also, have made my position clear now, which is …

The full 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled by the rejection of Our Lord’s teachings in 34 AD when Stephen was stoned to death!

So my conviction is that the 70th week of Daniel followed straight on from the previous 69 ‘weeks’, and foretold Our Lord’s baptism (anointing of the Messiah) in 27 AD; crucifixion in the midst of the ‘week’(I know people argue for 31 AD, 32 AD or 33 AD!); and then formal and forceful rejection of Our Lord’s Gospel by the officialdom of the Hebrews, and taking it to the Gentiles, as from 34 AD.

So I see the 70 weeks of Daniel being completely fulfilled by 34 AD.

So if you see it that way, then the whole of the scenario of a not yet known ‘political evil genius Anti-Christ’ negotiating peace treaties in the Middle East that permit the rebuilding of a Temple and the re-establishment of ‘daily sacrifices’ (which Our Lord dispensed with the need for by His own Sacrifice!), and then a breaking of the ‘peace treaty’ mid-period and the setting up of abominations, etc., etc. …

… all becomes a surreal, contrived fantasy.

And it neatly takes away from focussing on a powerful Anti-Christ power, and his current manoeuvres, that some very clearly see as being active at present.

I do not, however, deny the ‘catching up’ to be with the Lord, as spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thess 4: 15-18)

But to me this is a description of what happens when Our Lord finally returns to earth:

"Then The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet shall stand on The Mount Of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then The Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." (Zechariah 14:3-5)

In context, Paul seems to have been comforting the troubled Thessalonians. In fact he says as much: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

It seems the Thessalonians were upset by thoughts about loved ones who had already died, and concerns that they might not be ‘saved’ if Christ were to return in the near future – or if he already had returned!

So Paul tells them:

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” (1 Thess 4: 13, 14)

So from my perspective this Thessalonians passage has been ‘cut and pasted’ into the montage of the rapture story, which itself has spun out into numerous works of fiction and movies. The ‘Left Behind’ series springs to mind!


What should we be looking for … instead of Mr ‘Smoothie’ Anti-Christ arriving on the political scene from out of nowhere to negotiate a ‘peace treaty’. (Covenant?!)

I would suggest, as I mentioned a few posts ago, that the next big event is probably going to be the massive earthquake prophesied in Revelation 6: 12:

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;”

Check out what happened when Krakatoa blew up in 1883! The explosion, near Indonesia and Java, was heard in Southern Europe and New Zealand! Tsunamis and tidal waves wiped out whole coastal regions around the Pacific Rim.

It was so dark across Europe for a few days (ash, etc. in the upper atmosphere) that London kept its gaslights burning for three days.

Then weather patterns were disrupted; intense cold followed; and so did famine!

Well, the volcanic island is growing again! Now named Anak Krakatoa! The ‘Son of Krakatoa’.

Wherever the epicentre of the earthquake hits, it’s going to be a big one!

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
“For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

I don’t think we shall miss it!


And why did the Vatican override all the ecological and legal constraints against building an observatory on Mt Graham, Southeastern Arizona in 1989?

October 1989
University of Arizona, Vatican and Germany astronomy interests ignore Apache protests and cut virgin forest for new road to the summit of Mt. Graham.

http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/maunakea/H1_chronology.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope


And then built a SECOND – much more powerful – radio/telescope at the observatory in 2010 called LUCIFER! Upon questioning, they explained that this is really an ‘acronym’ for –

"Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research."

The telescope is actually dubbed ‘Lucifer 1’, because ‘Lucifer 2’ is to follow this year!

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/space/space_exploration/news.php?q=1272734056


So what are THEY really looking for?

All just good solid research? Or is something expected?

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”


Don’t you think it just a tiny little bit strange, however, that a lengthy name should be constructed that shortens to: LUCIFER?!

LUCIFER? The name of a radio/telescope owned and managed by the Vatican? (I’d sack the whole of the Vatican ‘public relations’ department at the very least! Lol!)

Any warning bells starting to ring?

Doug said:

Have you considered a lesser roll for the RCC and the Vatican, instead, as being the whore riding the beast in Revelation 17?

I’ve tried.

I’ve looked very closely into the Vatican, the Papacy, the Jesuits, their financial and intelligence services, their history, Roman Catholicism, etc.

But. just like in the Ancient World, all roads seem (to me anyway) to ‘lead to Rome!’

In the course of my investigations, however, a very positive side did present itself. Namely, the deep spiritual commitment of many Roman Catholics, from among both the lowliest people to the highest offices of the Church.

And I have nothing but the greatest respect for the true Exorcists within the Roman Catholic church. They are fighting a battle. And they know it! They are probably among the few people on this planet who do know exactly what is going on, and who our war is really with!

But just ask yourself this:

“Does it seem reasonable to you that Satan would leave what is possibly the greatest international geo-political force on this planet today, intact? Does it seem possible that he would leave it alone to develop real spirituality to go to war with him? Or does it seem more likely that he would attempt his usual trick … and infiltrate the very high places, and be hidden within the very organisation he is the implacable enemy of. The Church?”

Worth some serious reflection.

God Bless,

Steve

[shorttribber]

“Does it seem reasonable to you that Satan would leave what is possibly the greatest international geo-political force on this planet today, intact? Does it seem possible that he would leave it alone to develop real spirituality to go to war with him? Or does it seem more likely that he would attempt his usual trick … and infiltrate the very high places, and be hidden within the very organisation he is the implacable enemy of. The Church?”

II thes 2:
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



No rebuilt temple.........the temple antichrist..... sits/will sit..... in is already built.

[Exit40]

Hi Stephen.

Worth some serious reflection.

I posted these earlier in the thread but they are worth repeating at this point. Here are the obvious mentions of satan in the Church, in the Seven Letters to the Churches. Other verses don't take a whole lot of imagination to see his influence at work.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Rev 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

We can argue the importance of what you have been saying, but we can't dodge these Scripture. Satan is in the church now, has been, and will be. I had done a study of the Seven Letters but stopped short on the satan issue, not knowing even where to look. So my friend, you have filled in that blank for me successfully, so far. No doubt there is more to come.

Serious reflection ??? More like a serious warning.

God Bless You

David

[Stephen]

Hi Doug,

Forgot to answer your question:

Getting back to your scenario of the office of the Pope, who are the seven kings (the seven heads) in Revelation 7 ? Who is the eighth king to be, who was once alive, but dead at the time of John and in the bottomless pit? Perhaps you have said already, but I missed it.

Yep. I had already posted an interpretation that I am ‘running with’ at the moment. In my post dated 7 January 2011. Though I’m by no means completely fixated on it.

In St John’s time 5 kings had fallen:

Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Medo-Persia
Greece
(That’s 5)

One was (as John received his vision):

Imperial Rome (Under the Caesars)
(That’s 6)

The ‘other’ had not yet come. It was powerfully established in 538 AD:

Papal Rome
(That’s 7)

Papal Rome was all but destroyed by the Reformation (16th Century) and by Napoleon’s orders in 1798. (As prophesied) It was legally reconstituted AS A SOVEREIGN NATION in 1929 (Lateran Treaty). It is now growing into a global strength and power that I doubt most of you are aware of. It has it’s own ‘secret service; it’s ‘masonic lodge’ – ‘Papa Due’ – and the Jesuit Order, headed by the ‘Black Pope’. It’s power is already enormous. And hidden. It controls, for example, all the announcements from NASA. It owns and controls all the most powerful astronomical ‘radio-telescopes’ in the world. Just one example!

The re-emerging Papacy (heading the Great Deception of the ecumenical ‘one world religion’) is the eighth beast, who is of the seven.

Re-emergent Papal Rome
(That’s 8)

And I know your view at present! Lol!

Because you have already dismissed this interpretation as being incorrect in your post on your ‘Revelation 7 Kings or 7 kingdoms’ thread dated 11 January 2011:

I am saying that the 7 horns in Revelation 17 are not 7 kingdoms, nor 7 kings of 7 kingdoms, but 7 kings of one kingdom.

Not this:
Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Medo-Persian Empire
Greek Empire
Imperial Rome
Papal Rome

Re-emergent Papal Rome(kingdom #8)

Nor this
Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Medo-Persian Empire
Greek Empire
Roman Empire
Ottoman Turks

10 Middleeast Nation Caliphate (kingdom #8)

But this:
Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
Antichrist Man

Antichrist beast (king #8)

I think this is one of those things that probably won’t become clear until the history has panned out.

I have come across some interesting permutations on Papal names:

The seven Papal Monarchy names used by the various Popes, since 1798 are:

Pius
Leo
Gregory
Benedict
John
Paul
John Paul

http://www.666man.net/PapalNameDieOutDatesChart.html

But I don’t know.

Or rather, I don’t *feel* as convinced about these various analyses and permutations of the 7 kings as I do about the overall historicist prophecies that I – or anyone – can see unfolded in history.

I find the time given to the Anti-christ power to ‘wear out the Saints’ for 1,260 prophetic days (i.e years) amazingly fulfilled in the time span between the official promotion of the Pope to absolute head of the Christian Church by Emperor Justinian in 538 AD, and the ‘mortal wound’ of the Papacy (begun by the Reformation) by ‘the sword’ of the Napoleonic General Alexandre Berthier, arresting of the Pope in 1798 (1,260 years) and taking him back to prison in France where he died…

… then the ‘beast’ that everyone thought was ended – ‘the Pope is dead!’ – recovers and is re-born as a sovereign state in 1929 (Lateran Treaty under Mussolini), and today is – suitably concealed and ‘hidden’ to most – probably the most powerfully influential geo-political power on the planet. This is utterly amazing. And a very satisfying fit with prophecy.

And what is the papacy busy doing now? And has been since Vatican II in 1962?

Why, it is leading and co-ordinating the rush into ‘ecumenism’ – a ‘one world religion’.

The Great Apostasy.

The ‘falling away’ that we see before the ‘son of perdition’ is CLEARLY revealed (although probably only to those with eyes to see – so probably 90% of the world population won’t see it!), and then we’re in the End Times, and Our Lord is on the way.

I think that’s where we are now.

God Bless,

Steve

[Stephen]

Hi Guys,

As mentioned in my earlier posts the next big prophetic event I am expecting is an earthquake of world shattering impact.

I mentioned Krakatoa to you. Here is a report by Uriah Smith, writing in the mid-1800s, about the Great Lisbon Earthquake of 1755!

Uriah Smith ( a 7 Day Adventist) thought this to have fulfilled the earthquake prophecy in Revelation 6: 12.

I’m not sure whether or not this one was actually larger – a more powerful earthquake – than Krakatoa.

But read the effects around the world. Just to start to become familiar with what we can expect. Only much, much more powerful!

Note the paragraph under page reference 441 below, talking about the effects on sea levels, giant waves, and even disturbances in Loch’s in Scotland!

The Great Earthquake.--The first event under this seal, and perhaps the one which marks its opening, is a great earthquake. As the most striking fulfillment of this prediction, we refer to the great earthquake of November 1, 1755, known as the earthquake of Lisbon. Of this earthquake, Robert Sears says:
"The great earthquake of 1755 extended over a tract of at least four millions of square miles. Its effects were even extended to the waters, in many places where the shocks were not perceptible. It pervaded the greater portions of the continents of Europe, Africa, and America; but its extreme violence was exercised on the southwestern part of the former." [13] "In Africa, this earthquake was felt almost as severely as it had been in Europe. A great part of the city of Algiers was destroyed. Many houses were thrown down at Fez and Mequinez, and multitudes were buried beneath their ruins. Similar effects were realized in Morocco. Its effects were likewise felt at Tangier, at Tetuan, at Funchal in the Island of Madeira; . . . It is probable . . . that all Africa was shaken by this tremendous convulsion. At the North, it extended to Norway and Sweden; Germany, Holland, France, Great Britain, and Ireland were all more or less agitated by the same great and terrible commotion of the elements." [14] "The city of Lisbon . . . previous to that calamity . . . contained about . . . 150,000 inhabitants. . . . Mr. Barretti says, 'that 90,000 persons are supposed to have been lost on that fatal day.' " [15]
Sir Charles Lyell gives the following graphic description of this remarkable phenomenon:
"In no part of the volcanic region of Southern Europe has so tremendous an earthquake occurred in modern times as that which began on the 1st of November, 1755, at Lisbon. A sound of thunder was heard underground, and immediately afterwards a violent shock threw down the greater part of that
Page 440
city. In the course of about six minutes, sixty thousand persons perished. The sea first retired and laid the bar dry; it then rolled in, rising fifty feet above its ordinary level. The mountains of Arrabida, Estrella, Julio, Maravan, and Cintra, being some of the largest in Portugal, were impetuously shaken, as it were, from their very foundations; and some of them opened at their summits, which were split and rent in a wonderful manner, huge masses of them being thrown down into the subjacent valleys. Flames are related to have issued from these mountains, which are supposed to have been electric; they are also said to have smoked; but vast clouds of dust may have given rise to this appearance. . . .
"The great area over which this Lisbon earthquake extended is very remarkable. The movement was most violent in Spain, Portugal, and the north of Africa; but nearly the whole of Europe, and even the West Indies, felt the shock on the same day. A seaport called St. Ubes, about twenty miles south of Lisbon, was engulfed. At Algiers and Fez, in Africa, the agitation of the earth was equally violent, and at the distance of eight leagues from Morocco, a village, with the inhabitants to the number of about eight or ten thousand persons, together with all their cattle, were [was] swallowed up. Soon after, the earth closed again over them.
"The shock was felt at sea, on the deck of a ship to the west of Lisbon, and produced very much the same sensation as on dry land. Off St. Lucar [s], the captain of the ship 'Nancy' felt his vessel shaken so violently that he thought she had struck the ground, but, on heaving the lead, found a great depth of water. Captain Clark, from Denia, in latitude 36 degrees 24' N., between nine and ten in the morning, had his ship shaken and strained as if she had struck upon a rock. Another ship, forty leagues west of St. Vincent, experienced so violent a concussion that the men were thrown a foot and a half perpendicularly up from the deck. In Antigua and Barbadoes, as also in Norway, Sweden, Germany, Holland, Corsica, Switzerland, and Italy, tremors and slight oscillations of the ground were felt.
Page 441
"The agitation of lakes, rivers, and springs in Great Britain were remarkable. At Loch Lomond, in Scotland, for example, the water, without the least apparent cause, rose against its banks, and then subsided below its usual level. The greatest perpendicular height of this swell was two feet four inches. It is said that the movement of this earthquake was undulatory, and that it traveled at the rate of twenty miles a minute. A great wave swept over the coast of Spain, and is said to have been sixty feet high in Cadiz. At Tangier, in Africa, it rose and fell eighteen times on the coast; at Funchal, in Madeira, it rose full fifteen feet perpendicular above high-water mark, although the tide, which ebbs and flows there seven feet, was then at half ebb. Besides entering the city and committing great havoc, it overflowed other seaports in the island. At Kinsale, in Ireland, a body of water rushed into the harbor, whirled round several vessels, and poured into the marketplace." [16]
If the reader will look in his atlas at the countries mentioned, he will see how large a part of the earth's surface was agitated by this awful convulsion. Other earthquakes may have been as severe in particular localities, but no other supplies all the conditions necessary to constitute it a fitting event to mark the opening of the seal.
The Darkening of the Sun.--Following the earthquake, as announced by prophecy, "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair." This part of the prediction has also been fulfilled. We need not here enter into a detailed account of the wonderful darkening of the sun, May 19, 1780. Most persons of general reading, it is presumed, have seen some account of it. The following detached declarations from different authorities will give an idea of its nature:
"Dark Day, The. May 19, 1780--so called on account of a remarkable darkness on that day extending over all New England. . . . The obscuration began about ten o'clock in
Page 443
the morning, and continued till the middle of the next night, but with differences of degree and duration in different places. . . . The true cause of this remarkable phenomenon is not known." [17]

http://www.champs-of-truth.com/books/dr/rev_chapter_vi.htm


And if you want to feel distinctly queasy at the thought of being caught on the coastline when these things hit (at least I felt queasy!), watch these:

Krakatoa: The Last Days, Clip 1 – Tsunami:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0nky4I35xo


Tsunami - Incredible Video Footages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhuqKhXZkkY&feature=related



Coming with the above, or fast on the heels of, I would also expect dramatic strikes from deep space … perhaps meteor clusters, or even the ‘dwarf star’ sometimes referred to as Nibiru or Planet X.

Maybe the reason for the Arizona telescope complex, eh?

God Bless,

Steve

[clang]

Stephen, once again I have to thank you for all the information you have provided and the long research you have done.
I have to tell you that I do have one problem with your presentation and I hope you receive it in the spirit I am giving it.
There are many people here that are true believers that have different interpretations as to how it will all play out in
the days and years ahead. We have pre, mid, and post tribbers here as well as pre wrath. Not all of us are going to be right and I believe all of us are in for some surprises. The thing I would caution you is you seem to be indicating that those who don't agree with your beliefs have been deceived by satan, where I choose to believe that God made prophesy so hard to understand so we will stay in the Word and study it. None of us knows for sure how it will all play out because our minds don't quite work like our Creator. I grew up in a church that preached pre trib and I have slowly
changed my position over the years with much influence from my oldest brother who has been a pastor for 35 years
and has his doctorate.
Recently, I have been doing some research about the nephilim and the flood story. Some of the stuff I am hearing and
seeing is astonishing and has certainly opened my eyes. If you had told me this stuff 2 years ago I would have thought you were coo coo for coco puffs and thought you needed help. Although I have not bought into all of it, some of it makes a whole lot of sense. Some pretty well respected men are talking about it such as Chuck Missler and Tom Horn
among others.
All I am saying is we need to be careful about what we say to our brothers and sisters in Christ. This is not the Gospel
we are talking about. That is how the enemy deceives mankind. I do believe that there will be a great lie that many will believe because the Bible tells us exactly that, but I don't think any of us knows how God will bring about His
kingdom.
God bless brother.

[Saved]

"I find the time given to the Anti-christ power to ‘wear out the Saints’ for 1,260 prophetic days (i.e years) amazingly fulfilled in the time span between the official promotion of the Pope to absolute head of the Christian Church by Emperor Justinian in 538 AD, and the ‘mortal wound’ of the Papacy (begun by the Reformation) by ‘the sword’ of the Napoleonic General Alexandre Berthier, arresting of the Pope in 1798 (1,260 years) and taking him back to prison in France where he died…

… then the ‘beast’ that everyone thought was ended – ‘the Pope is dead!’ – recovers and is re-born as a sovereign state in 1929 (Lateran Treaty under Mussolini), and today is – suitably concealed and ‘hidden’ to most – probably the most powerfully influential geo-political power on the planet. This is utterly amazing. And a very satisfying fit with prophecy."

- Justinian's Decree was in 533 AD, not 538 AD

- Dozens of Popes have been killed while in office
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

- the Reformation began in 1517 with Luther's Ninety-Five Theses, not in the 1700's, the English Reformation, a great blow to the RCC occurred in 1509

- Berthier's occupation of the Papal States only lasted less than two years, and was in no way a 'death blow'
"The Roman Republic (Italian: Repubblica Romana) was proclaimed on February 15, 1798 after Louis Alexandre Berthier, a general of Napoleon, had invaded the city of Rome on February 10... The Roman Republic was short-lived, as the Papal States were restored in October 1799."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Repu ... century%29

- the RCC has suffered many 'mortal wounds' - the Great Schism is probably the greatest of all

- The thesis you have outlined is almost identical to the SDA teachings of E G White

[Saved]

compare SDA eschatology with the ideas proposed in this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-da ... schatology

particularly this chart:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Adven ... meline.gif

[Douggg]

Although, I do wonder if this is mainly an American thing. I am not part of any denominational church yet, so I don’t know many ‘church-goers’, but no one here (the UK) who I have spoken to about these things has heard of ‘the rapture’. (Mind you, they haven’t heard of much else either! Just who’s hosting the next football World Cup, and who’s winning the equivalent of ‘American Idol!’)

But I was surprised when a couple of Jehovah’s Witnesses came to my door a few weeks ago, and when I asked them their view of ‘the rapture’ they just looked at me blankly. They had never heard of it. And when I briefly explained it to them they literally backed off down the path as I was talking, and virtually ran away! Quite funny really.

You may have gotten the reaction from the JW's because they believe that only 144,000 actually go to heaven. All of those positions have been filled according to their beliefs.

That no one in the UK that you have talked to has not heard of the rapture is not surprising. The same can be said here in the U.S. In England, there are probably a lot of Anglicans, which is similar to the Episcopal Church. The Episopal Church doesn't emphasize bible prophecy. The other problem in England, the most popular name for baby boys is "Mohamed". If you want to help your friends get them a modern english version of the bible such as the Living Bible. It is not as accurate as the king james, but for people who don't read the bible, it can lead them to Christ. Take and yellow highlight in the margin 1thess4:15-18, and put a book mark on that passage. Also yellow highlight in the margin Revelation 13:15-18, and put a book mark on that passage as well. Give it to them and let it go at that. And let the Holy Spirit do the work.

So I see the 70 weeks of Daniel being completely fulfilled by 34 AD.

So if you see it that way, then the whole of the scenario of a not yet known ‘political evil genius Anti-Christ’ negotiating peace treaties in the Middle East that permit the rebuilding of a Temple and the re-establishment of ‘daily sacrifices’ (which Our Lord dispensed with the need for by His own Sacrifice!), and then a breaking of the ‘peace treaty’ mid-period and the setting up of abominations, etc., etc. …

… all becomes a surreal, contrived fantasy.

Sure it is surreal. Those person loaded in box cars and taken off to the gas chambers to be gassed thought that was surreal as well. That at the end of the 7 years, in Revelation 6 and Matthew 24, that the universe is going to fold back and see heaven with Jesus before the throne of God is as surreal as it gets. But it is going to happen. Go outside and look up at the night sky and the billions of stars, that's all going to part and be removed - how surreal is that? It is not a contrived fantasy. It is direct bible prophecy.

I do not, however, deny the ‘catching up’ to be with the Lord, as spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians:

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
“Wherefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thess 4: 15-18)

Well, that's the rapture. It takes place along with the resurrection of past Christians when it happens.

But to me this is a description of what happens when Our Lord finally returns to earth:

"Then The Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when He fights on a day of battle. On that day His feet shall stand on The Mount Of Olives which lies before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley; so that one half of the Mount shall withdraw northward, and the other half southward. And the valley of my mountains shall be stopped up, for the valley of the mountains shall touch the side of it; and you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then The Lord your God will come, and all the holy ones with Him." (Zechariah 14:3-5)

That too. Goes with Revelation 19:11-21. 19:11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. "And I saw heaven opened", that goes with Revelation 6:12-16, the parting of the universe. How surreal do you think that is going to be?

In context, Paul seems to have been comforting the troubled Thessalonians. In fact he says as much: “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

It seems the Thessalonians were upset by thoughts about loved ones who had already died, and concerns that they might not be ‘saved’ if Christ were to return in the near future – or if he already had returned!

So Paul tells them:

“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” (1 Thess 4: 13, 14)

So from my perspective this Thessalonians passage has been ‘cut and pasted’ into the montage of the rapture story, which itself has spun out into numerous works of fiction and movies. The ‘Left Behind’ series springs to mind!

Keep in mind that the Left Behind series is based upon a pre-trib view of the rapture/resurrection. 1thess4:13-18 is not based upon the Left Behind series. The rapture/resurrection is going to happen. The only question is when.

What should we be looking for … instead of Mr ‘Smoothie’ Anti-Christ arriving on the political scene from out of nowhere to negotiate a ‘peace treaty’. (Covenant?!)

Well, I am pre-trib so I view the convergence of the end times signs, as encouragement to look up for my redemption is close. If the conditions of the Antichrist are close, then the rapture/resurrection is closer as well, even though no-one know the exact day or hour.

I would suggest, as I mentioned a few posts ago, that the next big event is probably going to be the massive earthquake prophesied in Revelation 6: 12:

“And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;”

We are a long ways from Revelation 6:12 taking place.

Check out what happened when Krakatoa blew up in 1883! The explosion, near Indonesia and Java, was heard in Southern Europe and New Zealand! Tsunamis and tidal waves wiped out whole coastal regions around the Pacific Rim.

It was so dark across Europe for a few days (ash, etc. in the upper atmosphere) that London kept its gaslights burning for three days.

Then weather patterns were disrupted; intense cold followed; and so did famine!

Krakatoa is nothing compared to what is going to happen in Revelation 6:12-17.

Well, the volcanic island is growing again! Now named Anak Krakatoa! The ‘Son of Krakatoa’.

Wherever the epicentre of the earthquake hits, it’s going to be a big one!

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
“And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
“And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
“For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

I don’t think we shall miss it!

For those who are on earth during the time of the Antichrist leading up to Revelation 6:12-17, they are not going to miss that either.

And why did the Vatican override all the ecological and legal constraints against building an observatory on Mt Graham, Southeastern Arizona in 1989?

October 1989
University of Arizona, Vatican and Germany astronomy interests ignore Apache protests and cut virgin forest for new road to the summit of Mt. Graham.

http://www.mauna-a-wakea.info/maunakea/H1_chronology.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope


And then built a SECOND – much more powerful – radio/telescope at the observatory in 2010 called LUCIFER! Upon questioning, they explained that this is really an ‘acronym’ for –

"Large Binocular Telescope Near-infrared Utility with Camera and Integral Field Unit for Extragalactic Research."

The telescope is actually dubbed ‘Lucifer 1’, because ‘Lucifer 2’ is to follow this year!

http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/space/space_exploration/news.php?q=1272734056


So what are THEY really looking for?

All just good solid research? Or is something expected?

“And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
“And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.”


Don’t you think it just a tiny little bit strange, however, that a lengthy name should be constructed that shortens to: LUCIFER?!

LUCIFER? The name of a radio/telescope owned and managed by the Vatican? (I’d sack the whole of the Vatican ‘public relations’ department at the very least! Lol!)

Any warning bells starting to ring?

No. No warning bells are starting to ring because of that. It has no association with Revelation 6:12-17. The Vatican won't even be around, as the ten EU kings burn the Vatican to the ground, when the Antichrist beast comes to power (Revelation 17:16-18).

Doug said:

Have you considered a lesser roll for the RCC and the Vatican, instead, as being the whore riding the beast in Revelation 17?

I’ve tried.

I’ve looked very closely into the Vatican, the Papacy, the Jesuits, their financial and intelligence services, their history, Roman Catholicism, etc.

But. just like in the Ancient World, all roads seem (to me anyway) to ‘lead to Rome!’

In the course of my investigations, however, a very positive side did present itself. Namely, the deep spiritual commitment of many Roman Catholics, from among both the lowliest people to the highest offices of the Church.

And I have nothing but the greatest respect for the true Exorcists within the Roman Catholic church. They are fighting a battle. And they know it! They are probably among the few people on this planet who do know exactly what is going on, and who our war is really with!

But just ask yourself this:

“Does it seem reasonable to you that Satan would leave what is possibly the greatest international geo-political force on this planet today, intact? Does it seem possible that he would leave it alone to develop real spirituality to go to war with him? Or does it seem more likely that he would attempt his usual trick … and infiltrate the very high places, and be hidden within the very organisation he is the implacable enemy of. The Church?”

Worth some serious reflection.

Of course Satan has gotten into all false religions. He is in the Mormons, he is in the JW's, he is in the Muslims. He was in Baal, he was in Marduk. But the RCC is the one which specifically fits the description of the woman riding the beast.

Doug L.

[Douggg]

The re-emerging Papacy (heading the Great Deception of the ecumenical ‘one world religion’) is the eighth beast, who is of the seven.

Steve, the beast was already in the bottomless pit at the time of John, first century. The office of popes (the Papacy) was not even around back in the first century (or before) - in order to re-emerge, as you are theorizing. The beast is someone who died before John's time. No pope qualifies.

17:8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Doug L.

[Stephen]

Hi clang,

The thing I would caution you is you seem to be indicating that those who don't agree with your beliefs have been deceived by satan, where I choose to believe that God made prophesy so hard to understand so we will stay in the Word and study it.

Point taken. A very valid point.

I have – in my own mind – only been discussing the issues.

And it doesn’t bother me whether the 7 Day Adventists (or the ‘Tele-Tubbies’) also subscribe to some of them! I’m neither a 7 Day Adventist nor a ‘Tele-Tubby’! And mixing ‘truth’ with ‘lies’ is the usual Satanic ploy. But Ellen G White quite clearly failed the Biblical tests of a true prophet of God – she got things wrong! Presumably, in ancient Israel, she would have been stoned to death long before she had completed her voluminous literature!

In that I do accept the historicist interpretations (until and unless I see reason not to), and, in particular, seeing the Anti-Christ power as the Papal Office (now infiltrated by Satan, as even Pope Paul VI commented!), this necessarily results in seeing the ‘Rapture/Left Behind’ scenario as a false contrivance. One that deflects attention from certain ‘powers’ heavily active in the world today. A power – that whatever else you ascribe to it – is quite clearly leading the world movement into ecumenism and ‘apostasy.’ I don’t think there can be too much doubt about that. Even high-ranking ‘insiders’ have said as much. But you just have to watch the goings on at some of the ‘ecumenical’ conventions. Paganism is openly welcomed and embraced!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xywmnC13m_Q


But, anyone is entitled to their view.

And I really mean that. I’m not just saying it.

I don’t feel angry or hostile toward my Christian brothers and sisters who are in disagreement with me. In fact, I very much appreciate the opportunity to dialogue – which helps clarify my own thinking.

And I would change my own views immediately if I found other scenarios – other than those I have outlined – to be a convincing interpretation of prophecy.

But, at this stage, I do not.

None of us knows for sure how it will all play out because our minds don't quite work like our Creator.

Agreed.

Recently, I have been doing some research about the nephilim and the flood story. Some of the stuff I am hearing and seeing is astonishing and has certainly opened my eyes. If you had told me this stuff 2 years ago I would have thought you were coo coo for coco puffs and thought you needed help.

Yes.

This information is crucial. And often denied or ignored – or plain disbelieved along the lines of: “The Devil doesn’t really exist!”

Until people realise who and what is powering and is behind every horror taking place on this planet – from massively increased paedophilia, to rape, murder, ‘state torture’, and horrific ritual sacrifice – they will never know where their enemy is coming from, and will, instead, turn on each other in fragmented political and religious groups, hurling accusations and heaping up blame, and ultimately facilitating the drawing into the very violence and excesses they hate and fear.

And St Paul states it so clearly in Ephesians 6: 12:

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Have you scene the video presentation by Chuck Missler called:

Stem Cells & the Nephilim - Chuck Missler - 1/6?

Start of Playlist here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCTuiugo7mU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

This will bring you pretty much up to date with current science in genetics and cloning, and also wonderfully demonstrates (to me, at least) how ludicrous it is to claim ‘evolutionism’, ‘big bang’ and ‘accidental mutations’ (as taught in our schools as SCIENCE!) to have been the ‘mechanism’ bringing forth this Universe.

Two people that Satan used (in occult tradition) to break men away from God were Darwin and Karl Marx. And Karl Marx incorporated Darwin’s theories in his own dis-information – ‘social evolution’!

And the New Age use the very same thing for those in humanity who still feel the longing for spiritual connection, but don’t know where to turn. This time the ‘spirit’ becomes an ‘evolutionary process’, making it’s way toward ‘superman’ and ‘godhood’ by gaining ‘experience’ over many lifetimes!

Other people I recommend watching, or listening to, in this connection are the Exorcists (Malachi Martin, Gabriel Amorth, and others) and ‘deliverance ministers’ (Protestant) such as Russ Dizdar. These guys know who the war is with!

So, to sum up, I have enjoyed dialoguing about ‘prophecy interpretation’, which has clarified my own thoughts and given me much to think about from other perspectives.

In my normal social life I don’t attempt to persuade anyone of my viewpoints on such matters (no one seems interested anyway! Lol!), I just reply honestly, and, I hope, Biblically, to anyone who asks me questions about Christianity or why I have become Christian.

But, as you imply, my job is not to ‘convince’ others, and certainly not to ‘put down’ other viewpoints, because I may be wrong. And I will be as thrilled as anyone if I find myself ‘raptured’ out of all this in the near future!

God Bless,

Steve

[clang]

Thank you Steve for hearing what I had to say in the spirit it was given. We have so many fantastic brothers and sisters
here who truly love the Lord and that is why I love this site so much. Most sites on the web would not even allow this debate, but FP does and I believe that is because of our love for one another. The one thing that is not allowed here is
"another Gospel" and that we all support, and we should. That is where satan is truly attacking the church and the result is the ecumenical movement that you spoke of. Look at Rick Warren and what he is planning for the new year. I
believe he has been deceived by the enemy and I pray for his congregation "that they will come out of her". I am not
worried in the least about their views on eschotology but getting involved with the occult is a whole different story. And believe me, this really saddens me. I really admired Warren years ago, but he has decided that money and fame is
more important than the true Gospel. And yes, this is true of many churches today. Sorry, I did not want to derail this
thread.
Back to the subject at hand. I do believe that the Vatican has a major role to play as you do, and I believe that it wont
be on the side of Christ. However, the end times deception is going to be so big that catholics, muslims, hindus, buddhists, Jews and the secular world are all going to believe it. Does the Vatican have that power? Not even close.
That is why I have been looking into the whole nephilim angle recently and a lot of it makes sense. Some of it is really
bizarre and I feel like I'm not in Kansas anymore. But strangely, my wife and I said the same thing last night. Our
spirits are not troubled by this information and we are not in fear, and believe me when I say this. Some of this stuff
would terrify most people. Now don't get me wrong here. I have not bought into all of it and I am not out looking for
space ships in my spare time, but if we start seeing them, I won't be nearly as shocked. This is a war between our King
and satan and that means signs and wonders. The supernatural is a word the Church would not have used in times past
but they better get used to it.
I am going to close and check out the Missler videos you mentioned. Thanks again and I do agree about Russ Dizdar.

[Stephen]

Hi Saved,

Justinian's Decree was in 533 AD, not 538 AD

Yes, I know, but we’re back to the discussion between ‘name’ and ‘substance’ again.

Which I was too lazy to get into!

In 533 Justinian declared that the Pope of Rome had authority over all other bishops, and the authority to put down heresy throughout Christendom.

Unfortunately, the Pope at the time was besieged in Rome, and had no power (substance) to ‘take up’ the so-called ‘legal rights’ that Justinian had bequeathed on him.

But the Daniel prophecies seem to me to clearly foresee this state of affairs, in their description of ‘the little horn’ coming up among the 10 horns and ‘uprooting’ three of them.

(And I know – by experience here! Lol! – that we can all see the ‘horns’ in different ways. And maybe all the perceptions contain truths.)

Anyway, as ‘horns’ for ‘people groupings’, or ‘kingdoms’, which 3 were uprooted?

Precisely the 3 that were causing the Pope of Rome such grief!

The Vandals (North Africa); the Ostrogoths (North of Italy); and the Heruli (within the centre of Italy).

The Vandals were particularly hard on Rome, whom they considered heretics, and raided the Italian coastline constantly. (The Vandals were themselves of the ‘Arian’ persuasion – which the Bishops of Rome considered a heresy in their turn.)

And the Ostrogoths actually occupied Rome and ruled Italy at this time. Still hanging on to the earlier conquest and success of their King Theodoric the Great, who had died in 526 AD.

So Justinian’s ‘decree’ was in name only at this time (533 AD). Effectively meaningless.

In 534 Justinian sent his ablest General, Belisarius, to North Africa. Belisarius waged a campaign that totally destroyed the Vandals, and they never reformed as a ‘nation’ again. (Uprooted)

The Heruli were not such a problem, as they had previously given service within the Roman army. Many of them signed up with Belisarius and were absorbed within his Byzantine army. Some of them fought with, and were defeated by, the Ostrogoths.

They too disappear from history in the 6th Century, never to reform as a ‘nation’ again. (Uprooted)

Finally, the Ostrogoths were actually occupying Rome while Belisarius was dealing with the Vandals, but they abandoned Rome when Belisarius appeared, and he was able to occupy the city in 536. But both Belisarius and the Pope then found themselves immediately besieged within it!

The Ostrogoths began to lay siege to Rome, taking on Belisarius and his Byzantine troops. In 537 they besieged Rome for a final time, under a leader called Vitiges. After determined assaults, and heavy casualties on both sides, Belisarius managed to repulse the besiegers and carry out sorties against the Goths outside of the city.

In MARCH 538 AD the siege was broken, and the Ostrogoths retreated.

And it was from THIS time – and this time only – that the Pope NOW had the POWER to step into the LEGAL authority FORMALLY granted him by Justinian in 533 AD. Up until 538 AD the Pope had no means of really beginning to exercise his ‘power’. He was trapped in Rome – which was occupied by the Ostrogoths until 536 AD – and was then besieged within Rome alongside Belisarius and his Byzantine troops. Until March 538 AD.

The Ostrogoths were finally destroyed by a Byzantine force about – I think – 15 years later. 555 AD or so. (Uprooted! Never to form again as a nation. And they had once been a powerful nation! Under Theodoric the Ostrogoth!)

So 538 is the year in which the Bishop of Rome – Pope – was able to come into the full substance of the ‘authority’ formally granted him 5 years earlier by Emperor Justinian. And, of course, it was Justinian who worked to put the Pope in this position of power. Belisarius was Justinian’s General, and Justinian’s Byzantine troops eventually liberated the Pope so that he could exercise the power given him.

Then 1260 years later enter General Berthier in Rome. 1798.

- Berthier's occupation of the Papal States only lasted less than two years, and was in no way a 'death blow'
"The Roman Republic (Italian: Repubblica Romana) was proclaimed on February 15, 1798 after Louis Alexandre Berthier, a general of Napoleon, had invaded the city of Rome on February 10... The Roman Republic was short-lived, as the Papal States were restored in October 1799."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Repu ... century%29

I’m a bit unhappy with your link. It is a little scant. And the first thing it says is:

This article does not cite any references or sources.

I will, if you wish, go through the history of what happened to the papacy after General Berthier sacked St Peter’s, took away a great deal of gold and works of art, and took the then Pope – Pius VI – back to Valence, France, where he died a prisoner.

Obviously, as a matter of history the ‘papacy’ did not cease to exist. It worked away ceaselessly in the background to restore itself.

The successful restoration – or first stage of – came with the Lateran Treaty of 1929, at which the Papacy was established as a ‘sovereign nation’ in Vatican City. Complete with its own laws, administration, financial institutions and Diplomatic Corps. (A bit like Israel!)

‘The deadly wound was healed’ was a newspaper headline!

You can see photos, etc., of the occasion here:

http://biblelight.net/wound.htm

Incidentally, some see the 1260 years as being from 533AD to 1793 AD. Why? Because on that date came a statement by the French ‘revolutionary council’ that sent chills through the papacy.

Exactly 1260 years later, in 1793, came the notable decree of the Papacy's once powerful supporter, France,—"the eldest son of the church,"—aiming to abolish church and religion, followed by a decisive stroke with the sword at Rome against the Papacy, in 1798.

http://www.web-books.com/Classics/ON/B0/B897/14MB897.html


The Pope actually stepped up religious propitiations and ceremonies, etc., in the hope of enlisting the protection of higher powers. He knew what was coming!


Anyway, as we know, prophecy is somewhat hard to pin down – even when it clearly appears to some of us to have actually happened!

This is one of the reasons that I began to be struck by the idea that prophecy is ‘multi-layered’, and a detailed prophecy may have a number of ‘pre-figurations’, ‘types’ and even dual or triple events referred to within it.

God Bless,

Steve

[clang]

I went to u-tube and watched the series Chuck Missler did on stem cells and went on to watch other videos he did since I enjoyed the first series so much. I went on to read some of the comments and I read some things about him that were
a little disturbing including his involvement in free masonry and some other stuff. I don't really know what to think about this because there is so much false info on the web. Discerning truth is tough sometimes.

[Saved]

Hi Steve,

The Papal States existed from 752–1870. They were finally overthrown by the Italian Govt in 1870.

"On September 10, 1870, Italy declared war on the Papal States, and the Italian Army, commanded by General Raffaele Cadorna, crossed the frontier of the then remaining papal territory on 11 September and advanced slowly toward Rome. The Italian Army reached the Aurelian Walls on 19 September and placed Rome under a state of siege. Although the pope's tiny army was incapable of defending the city, Pius IX ordered it to put up at least a token resistance to emphasize that Italy was acquiring Rome by force and not consent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States

The current Vatican City, although a 'state' in name, is nothing compared to the original Papal States. It only covers 44 Ha, I walked around the entire 'state' in 90 mins. I really struggle to see how this fulfills "The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."

Historicists often seem to be trying to ram a 3ft square peg into a 2 inch round hole by claiming that a prticular earthquake (e.g Lisbon) was the great quake prophesied in Rev, or a meteor shower was the 'stars falling from heaven'. History is replete with enormous earthquakes. The 1556 Shaanxi earthquake is still considered the 3rd worst natural disaster ever recorded, it killed nearly a million people and threw down entire mountain ranges. Lisbon killed 50,000.

Now, I believe that there is a Great Tribulation coming very soon, and we were clearly told how long it will last. When you really want someone to understand something you tell them in multiple ways. We are told the length:

1260 days = time, times and half a time = 42 months = half a week = 3.5 years

It says that at the end there will be a great falling away. What I worry about is that when things get really bad, and the Saints are under terrible persecution, many christians will fall away because they believed that either - we weren't meant to be here for this (ie we should have been raptured), or all this supposedly was supposedly fulfilled in the past.

I totally agree that the RCC, at it heart, is very wicked and will play a major role in the GT. But I think that it's pretty clear that the beast will be some form of global govt - "it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation." Every tribe and language, that means even tiny tribes living in the Amazon or Congo will come under its authority.

I really can't see the RCC fulfilling this role, more likely it will be part of a new unified world religion? BTW, did you know that even now the Catholic Church has seven heads of which the Pope is just the 'Patriarch of the Latin Rite'. There are six other Patriarchs who exercise full authority over their particular 'Church'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_h ... Patriarchs

Anyway, getting back to the original point of this thread - I also feel that the last 7 years are just about to begin. Matthew 24:15-31 talks about the GT and the return of our Lord. Immediately after that in verses 32-34 Jesus says "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

In Hebrew the tense of 'this generation' means 'this generation, the one that I have been talking about', ie. the one that will be present during the events He has been describing. Israel, God's timepiece, put forth her leaves again in 1948. The longest, and most sensible, length of a generation is 70 years (Psalm 90:10). This would suggest that "all these things" must take place by 2018.

[Stephen]

Hi Clang,

Yes. I know what you mean.

But in some presentations Chuck Missler is very upfront with what he has done and been involved in. Some of which he has admitted he was deceived by and he now regrets.

He was very much a ‘military man’, and involved with ‘intelligence agencies’ and defense work in his earlier years, and completely committed to it.

But the information he presents is impeccable on the scientific fronts. He is particular sharp on information theory.

I also found his bible instruction series very useful when I was first reading through the Bible, but by now I do disagree with him on some points.

He is a very dedicated ‘pre-tribulation’ believer. Although he states that originally he completely rejected the idea. I seem to remember him saying that it was his friend Hal Lindsey who converted him to acceptance. (‘The Late, Great, Planet Earth’ – which I have also read.)

Basically, however, he seems to me to be one of the ‘good guys’!

And I only ‘came out of Babylon’ myself a few years ago.

But I am now beginning to feel at a bit of a loss with all this prophecy!

It’s worse than drugs! I think I’m going to have to go ‘cold turkey’.

I’ve just come across an article about Sir Isaac Newton’s interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks, which he saw as running from 3 April 458 BC to the date he had calculated as being the date of Our Lord’s crucifixion on 1 April 33 AD.

Sir Isaac is certainly a man to give a hearing to! (But he was the first to admit that there are some things he could not know until the times were fulfilled.)

So Sir Isaac saw the prophecy end with Our Lord’s crucifixion.

And this is using a ‘solar’ calendar called the Enoch calendar. Which I have never heard of before…

… we have no reason to suspect that the Lord has ever employed our Roman calendar, which is a corrected form of that proposed by Julius Caesar. What is the interval on calendars which the Lord has authorized, such as the Hebrew Calendar and the Enoch Calendar?

The solar calendar of Enoch is much more like our Gregorian calendar, except that it is based on weeks so that it begins every year on a Sunday, and adds an entire week of days when needed to keep the first day of the year near the spring equinox (21 Mar).

And the conclusion to the article:

Sir Isaac Newton provided the key to understanding the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel. When one reckons from the day that Ezra left to rebuild Jerusalem (Sat 3 Apr 458 BC), to one of the two possible dates for the Crucifixion (Fri 1 Apr AD 33), the interval is almost exactly seventy weeks of years (490 years) on our calendar. When the Enoch calendar is used, then the separation of the two dates completes exactly seventy weeks of Enoch years, to the very day. This precise timing provides a strong witness 1) of God's foreknowledge of both dates, 2) of the authenticity of the Book of Daniel, and 3) of Fri 1 Apr AD 33 as the date of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ. Truly the Lord has provided several witnesses of the key dates in the Savior's life.

http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridian/2004/daniel.html


Well, personally, I can’t shake the FEELING that the seventy weeks runs from the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus to restore and rebuild Jerusalem – complete with walls, temples and roads, and the right to self-administration – and ends at the time of the ministry and crucifixion of Our Lord. Even if we do find different calculations shifting dates back and forth by a few years.

And playing around with solar, lunar, Mosaic, Enochian, Julian and Gregorian calendars!

(It was bad enough when I got into the Mayan calendar system many years ago!)

Anyway, a continuous 70 weeks, ending with Our Lord’s ministry, just makes far more sense to me overall than chopping off a final 70th week and then carrying it forward indefinitely as a time of a future 7 years of tribulation.

Incidentally, I haven’t seen any reason for doing that other than saying that the Jews hadn’t made an end to iniquity and received their Messiah properly at the end of 70 weeks, so the last week MUST be carried forward …

I simply took it that, NO, the Jews hadn’t fulfilled and completed everything they were given to do by the end of the 70 weeks!

But there is an ‘if … then’ theme that is often seen in God’s dealings with people. Particularly His chosen people.

‘If’ you follow what God commands, ‘then’ things will probably turn out pretty good. (Though not always immediately!) But ‘if’ you FAIL to follow God’s command … and especially if you persist in failing to do so … ‘then’ you can be pretty sure there will be a reckoning!

And this wouldn’t be the first time!

“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
“And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.” (Deut 28: 1-2)

BUT …

“But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:” (Deut 28: 15)

Another example of failure to comply …

“And the LORD'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the LORD, was consumed.” (Numbers 32: 13)

So before I had heard of a cut off 70th week, I just accepted that the Jews (the official Sanhedrin and most of the usual sheep-like people) had failed to meet the deadline set.

With somewhat unpleasant historical consequences!

Anyway, I’m beginning to wonder whether all the ‘brain-ache’ produced by researching prophecy is necessary.

I think I agree with Thomas A Kempis:

“Vanity of vanities, all is vanity, save to love God, and Him only to serve. That is the highest wisdom, to cast the world behind us, and to reach forward to the heavenly kingdom.”

I wonder if the monasteries are still taking in would be hermits?

Which one is it again, that makes the strong wine and sherry ….?

God Bless,

Steve

[clang]

I got to tell you, I am far less concerned about him being pre-trib than some of the other stuff. When I hear free masonry and kabbalah and numerology, I take a step back. Are these things true or not, and has he stopped these
practices if true? I realize the internet is full of falsehoods and finding out the truth is tough sometimes. He does seem to be brilliant and truly love the Lord. The videos are fascinating as well.

[Stephen]

Hi clang,

I would say those accusations about Chuck are complete dis-information.

And that is something I am getting quite used to on the Web. Real Christians are definite targets. And there are groups of people who go around doing nothing but sideline and destroy discussion in service to their particular agenda.

One thing I often notice is that you have an interesting discussion, or string of interesting, thoughtful comments about a video clip, or the person presenting it, then suddenly you get a barrage of nonsense, obscenity and clear lies from one or two or more 'contributors' ... and then you notice they have 'names' like 'aufghetycmn' or 'pig-eater' or something sexually offensive. And pretty soon the thread is destroyed. And then, all that most people see of it are the last posts of pure destruction and garbage.

I know some of the groups who do this. Not personally! Lol! I mean I am aware of who they are. But I don't really want to give out names here. Governments also get involved in certain areas, justifying it under the name of 'counter-cyberwarfare!'

But just watching Chuck Missler and listening to him – even if you don’t agree with all he says (as with anybody) – you surely get the feel of a man very committed to Christ. I have read some of his autobiographical information, and he has been ‘through the mill’ a few times in his life – with his marriage, loss of close ones, and financial destruction. But he has come through all that – with his wife Nancy – and I’m sure is the stronger for it.

With regard to any knowledge he has of esotericism, this does not necessarily mean he is a practising black adept.

Many of us, for various reasons, have been very interested in the occult – I, for example, could draw up the Kabbalah right now and explain it pretty thoroughly to you – but I’m not chalking out hexagrams on the floor and conjuring demons.

And once one has such knowledge – and comes, by grace, to the Lord – you certainly ‘know the enemy’ to a degree that most people are unaware of.

Most people today simply do not believe in Satanism as a world-wide power; in real ritual Satanic abuse and sacrifice going on; in the very real world of Satan and his army of Demons; in demonic possession; in the casting of black magic curses; in the war by the Evil Ones against God; in the reality of the office of Exorcist; etc. …

… but if people seriously studied (which I’m not necessarily recommending for all – power has its temptations!) these things, they would soon be ‘believers.’

So I really do not think you have to worry about being subverted by a deceptive, Freemasonic, Chuck Missler.

Far from it.

Chuck has a wealth of information to impart. And there is much that he gives freely on his website, ‘Koinonia House’:

http://www.khouse.org/

and, ‘Learn the Bible within 24 hours’ – this was a great boost for me a few years ago (although, it does, as you know, take a bit longer than 24 hours! Lol!) But I suspect Chuck means 24 I hour study periods, which may span a few weeks:

http://www.khouse.org/6640_cat/learnthebiblein24hours/


I am thinking of signing up for one of his organised tours around the Holy Land for next year. Possibly March 2012.

Anyway, hope the above helps.

God Bless,

Steve

[clang]

Thanks Steve. You have certainly eased some of my concerns about him and I know as well as you do about the
disinformation on the internet. Chuck even talks about this in one of the videos I watched in relation to the government and classified information. The thing we need to keep in mind is satan is coming at us from all angles and dividing the
true church has to be at the top of his list. I hope and pray that my first impression of him was right and I guess only
time will tell and the Lord will reveal who is truly His. I have a friend who is very close to the Lord and she loves Chuck
Missler. I was not looking forward to passing on this information and at this point, I won't. I will watch and wait for God
to reveal the truth.
Isn't it ironic that the enemy wants to divide God's people and yet he wants a one world religion.

[Stephen]

Isn't it ironic that the enemy wants to divide God's people and yet he wants a one world religion.

Yes.

But a one world religion without real Christians!

Or religious Jews.

All else welcome!

Come one come all …

… except Bible believing Christians and Jews, and those who recognise Jesus Christ as the Messiah born into the flesh!

There is no sin! There is no Hell! There was no Fall! Therefore there is no need of Redemption. No need of Christ.

All is evolving ‘naturally’ without the input of a ‘personal’ Creator. ‘God (and the Goddess) are the Universe. Mother Earth. Gaia. Wicca.

To ‘hug a tree’ is to love God!

The creature is once more worshipping the creation instead of the Creator!

The Pagan religions are once more sweeping the whole world.

The Great Deception. The Great Apostasy.

All we need now is for the Anti-Christ to be revealed ….

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrHXwcdr7zg

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhASZeXYYgo&feature=related


God Bless,

Steve

[Saved]

"The creature is once more worshipping the creation instead of the Creator!
The Pagan religions are once more sweeping the whole world."

Yes, there is much more danger here than most realise and it is growing by the day!
I've done quite a bit of research into this topic and have put together a little website about it.
You might be interested in having a quick look:
http://www.green-agenda.com/globalrevolution.html

[clang]

Thanks Saved. I actually went to your site some time ago and learned a lot of interesting stuff. Your site was the first place I ever heard about Agenda 21 which is yet another layer to this whole mess that man has created. Your information about the environmental movement was eye opening as well. I have truly come to love my brothers and sisters here at FP and the research and studies all of you have done. Keep up all the great work.

[Saved]

Thanks clang, it's a bit out of date so I'm planning to do a big overhaul.
It's very sad how deeply the NAM and green movement have infiltrated the Church, especially the RCC.
Just google 'green pope' or 'creation care'

or read this:
http://conservation.catholic.org/pope_john_paul_ii.htm
http://conservation.catholic.org/john_paul_ii.htm

scary!

[burien1]

Thanks clang, it's a bit out of date so I'm planning to do a big overhaul.
It's very sad how deeply the NAM and green movement have infiltrated the Church, especially the RCC.
Just google 'green pope' or 'creation care'

or read this:
http://conservation.catholic.org/pope_john_paul_ii.htm
http://conservation.catholic.org/john_paul_ii.htm

scary!

Long time no see. So glad to see that you`re still around. I always recommend your site to people. It is invaluable as a starting point for all the players and agenda`s on the world stage.

[Stephen]

Hi Saved,

I've done quite a bit of research into this topic and have put together a little website about it.

That’s a tremendous amount of focussed information you have pulled together. Truly a formidable resource for directing people to in order to bring them into awareness of what is actually happening behind the benign words and phrases lauding the ‘divinity’ of nature and the benefits of us all ‘becoming as one.’

I have bookmarked it so I can pull it up and refer others to it.

The quotes on your Home Page ought to wake up all but the most far gone!

(Unfortunately, and sadly, there are many who are ‘far gone’ by now.)

It doesn’t get much clearer where we are headed than these sample quotes from the words of the ‘movers and shakers’:

"Nature is my god. To me, nature is sacred;
trees are my temples and forests are my cathedrals."
- Mikhail Gorbachev, Green Cross International

"Christianity is our foe. If animal rights is to succeed,
we must destroy the Judeo-Christian Religious tradition."
- Peter Singer, founder of Animal Rights

"Childbearing should be a punishable crime against
society, unless the parents hold a government license.
All potential parents should be required to use
contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing
antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing."
- David Brower, first Executive Director of the Sierra Club

"Human beings, as a species,
have no more value than slugs."
- John Davis, editor of Earth First! Journal

To grasp how ubiquitous, slippery and ‘universal’ all of this movement is – the so-called ‘New Age’, which is actually a very ‘old age’ (Babylonian) agenda – and to grasp how it is ‘operating’ and where it is intended to go, I really recommend this one hour presentation by Constance Cumbey, author of ‘Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow.’

Constance Cumbey: Discovering the New Age Movement

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8937919448007045479#

There is so much in the above presentation showing the attitudes behind the New Age, the beliefs, and the hatreds. I recommend it very highly.

The New Age is fundamentally powered by the demonic, supernatural realm – as I have tried to demonstrate in earlier posts – particularly based on ‘channellings’ and ‘contacts’ and ‘mother nature’ and ‘global oneness’, and, of course, on its rationalised hatred of the ‘patriarchal’ religion based upon the ‘cruel male God’ Jehovah, and the Bible! (Satan’s philosophical device!)

Most New Agers never read the Bible, of course, because they have decided (i.e. been told from every angle!) that it is patriarchal, anti-Gaia, and based on worship of an ancient, ‘cruel’ male God. All without reading it! And on that basis – inculcated belief not based on personal research, or the direct acquiring of evidence from the source – many have an almost pathological hatred of true Bible believing Christians!

They will persecute when the time comes – even though many may well truly believe at present that they wouldn’t. But they will come to believe – as many do already – that they are serving the ‘higher Being’, humanity’s ‘evolving spirituality’, and the burgeoning ‘new spirituality’ of Mother Nature, by helping eliminate all those who are holding those capable of evolution back!

All this is powered, manipulated and manoeuvred by ‘the fallen cherub.’ It is the brilliant tactic of Satan … who commanded his legions to switch from terrorising humanity, to wooing it! He has been much more successful in setting us up for destruction – he and all his servants, both discarnate and incarnate – as an ‘angel of light.’

And all foreseen by Our Lord and Our Father.

And it seems to me that Our Father is extending as much time as He can to our brothers and sisters so that as many as possible may be saved.

If Our Lord had returned in 1988, which was one prediction, I would be in an unpleasant place right now. So we must recognise Our Father’s compassion to those for whom He still awaits to turn back to Him. Like the Prodigal Son.

And do our best to reach out and bring whoever we can home.

But Our Lord is no way troubled by the ‘New Age movement’, and the manoeuvres of Satan:

“Why are the nations so violently moved, and why are the thoughts of the people so foolish?
“The kings of the earth have taken their place, and the rulers are fixed in their purpose, against the Lord, and against the king of his selection, saying, let their chains be broken, and their cords taken from off us.
“Then he whose seat is in the heavens will be laughing: the Lord will make sport of them.
“Then will his angry words come to their ears, and by his wrath they will be troubled:” (Psalm 2: 1 – 5) (Bible in Basic English.)

The reason the nations are ‘so violently moved’, and why ‘the thoughts of the people so foolish’ is, sadly, quite simple.

It has nothing to do with reason, science, or facts. (As most atheists claim!)

It is simply that men (and women) DO NOT WANT, in any way, to have to recognise a Creator who is a personal God, and before whom they may incur some level of obligation!

In other words … they are NOT prepared to consider any God who might put obstacles (as they see it) in the way of their ‘sinful’ enjoyment. Particularly their sensual predilections!

And that’s it!

Thus you can argue until you are blue in the face presenting the many arguments to show the ‘classic’ Darwinian position to be ludicrous (even Darwin himself feared he had wasted his life on a ‘fantasy’ just before he died!), and the necessity for a ‘designer’ to unfold the wonder of Creation, etc. …

… but you will get nowhere with someone who DOES NOT WANT to relinquish their sin.

And that is why we have the leaders and governments that are so self-interested and evil. They reflect humanity’s self-interest and evil back to us. And for a while God permits their authority as the chastisement of this world.

And so, eventually, this increasingly sinful and cruel world will be brought to an end of sin with Our Lord’s return.

God Bless,

Steve