A different take on Peace and Safety

[Exit40]

1Th 5:1 ¶ But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The Day of the Lord comes as a thief. To whom ? Those saying peace and safety. A further qualifier is they sleep at night and are drunken at night. They are the people of the night, or darkness. Further identifying them are their opposites, the people of the day who do not sleep as the others sleep, but watch and are sober, having Faith and Love, and the Hope of Salvation, are not appointed to wrath, but Salvation in Christ Jesus.

So peace and safety is being spoken by apparent unbelievers who will face the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord, His Wrath. I don't think this narrows it down exclusively to Israel being surprised attacked by enemies. Plus, I doubt Israel would say peace and safety in our lifetimes just by the way things look right now, no matter a peace treaty. Unless the Lord returns and is the guarantor of it. Which brings us to gog/magog at the end of the millennium. Sounds like a people, whose number is as the sand, and march from across the breadth of the earth to surround the camp of God's people do not face the Day of the Lord, or wrath, but are merely consumed by the Lord's fire, not reaped in the harvest of the wicked, and trampled in his press, no blood to the horse's bridles, and everything else we associate with the destruction of the Day of the Lord, His wrath.

From an article on islam

Aslim, Taslim was the message that Mohammed sent to non-Muslim rulers, literally meaning, "Submit and you will be well". Since then that message has been sent by Muslim leaders, political and religious, to Western leaders. The multiple meanings of "Peace", "Submission", "Wholeness" and "Security" connecting to the name of the religion itself, play on the ambiguity of ideas. Peace becomes surrender. Islam becomes safety. And security means submission.

For Westerners peace can exist apart from religion, for Muslims, peace is a theological state, rather than a political one. A political peace will never be considered by Muslims as anything but a temporary truce to gain strategic advantage. A true peace must be theological, in that non-Muslims must concede the superiority of Islamic law and the Koran. To achieve "wholeness" with the Dar-Al-Islam, one must first submit to it. Aslim, Taslim..... Read the whole article, plus the following reference...

aslim, taslim

So I propose as a possible interpretation the ones saying peace and safety are muslims who have divided, then conquered Israel and Jerusalem, have pursued Israel who is protected in the wilderness, then turns on those who follow the Commandments of the Lord, eventually setting up the Fourth beast Kingdom on as much of a global scale as possible using the mark of the beast, MOB, which may be related to the price of OPEC oil and gas. When it appears that islam has won, is in control almost globally, then they, muslims, will say in accordance with their belief and their koran, there is peace and safety. Aslim, taslim. Then....

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Further, from verse 7, they that sleep...

Strong's G2518 - katheudō
καθεύδω
Transliteration
katheudō
Pronunciation
kä-thyü'-dō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From κατά (G2596) and heudo (to sleep)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to fall asleep, drop off to sleep
2) to sleep
a) to sleep normally
b) euphemistically, to be dead
c) metaph.
1) to yield to sloth and sin
2) to be indifferent to one's salvation

and they that are drunken....

Strong's G3184 - methyō
μεθύω
Transliteration
methyō
Pronunciation
me-thü'-ō (Key)
Part of Speech
verb
Root Word (Etymology)
From another form of μέθη (G3178)
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to be drunken
2) metaph. of one who has shed blood or murdered profusely

do so in the night...

Strong's G3571 - nyx
νύξ
Transliteration
nyx
Pronunciation
nü'ks (Key)
Part of Speech
feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary word
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) night
2) metaph. the time when work ceases
a) the time of death
b) the time for deeds of sin and shame
c) the time of moral stupidity and darkness
d) the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber

Those that sleep ( euphemistically, are dead ) and are drunken ( metaphorically, from shedding blood and murdering profusely ) do so at night ( the time for deeds of sin and shame, and moral stupidity and darkness ). Essentially, they are muslims after the islamic conquest of the world, the fourth beast kingdom, saying peace and safety, the islamic version is aslim taslim, when sudden destruction comes on them, the Day of the Lord, His Wrath.

PS. My first commentary is partially copied, in essence, from an earlier post in another thread.

God Bless

David

[shorttribber]

Hi David,

Many ideas are preconceived and that particular saying is one of them. It could be as you've suggested.

The MAKING of A covenant idea from Dan 9:27 has plenty to do with that saying.

Since I don't believe an antichrist will come along and make A covenant with Israel those words have taken on a different meaning for me and could include many possibilities, the idea you've mentioned being one of them.

[Exit40]

HI shorttribber. Yeah, it's something to think about. Regarding the ac and a treaty, we know there will be a covenant with death, which the Lord annuls. But will this be a treaty with the ac ?

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Past or future ? Partial fulfillment ? Reading the whole chapter it seems there is a future fulfillment, verse 22 in particular. And regarding this in the light of an islamic/Israeli peace agreement, a political peace will never be considered by Muslims as anything but a temporary truce to gain strategic advantage. A political peace could be an actual confirmation of Our Fathers original, Israel has a right to exist in her land given by Him. Muslim nations and islam in general recognizing this, and accepted by Israel, could be this confirmation. There are about 35 nations which do not recognize Israel, the majority of which are muslim, Turkey being an exception. However, Turkey was secular when it recognized Israel, and a staunch western ally. Plus, once a land has been conquered by islam it is forever more a part of it, no matter the political situation. In the short run this does not bode well for Israel.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

I wonder why this thread hasn't attracted much attention. Is it something I said ? Or did ? I'm not taking this personal, just wondering out loud.

God Bless

David

[4givenmuch]

David, interesting insight- right now I am watching all things. Certainly the rise in boldness in Islam in America is not going unnoticed by the Lord, and He will deal- somehow!

[Tevye]

This morning I was thinking about this very passage.
I was thinking how we have so much security cameras everywhere
and how there is a much tighter grip on everyone to be secure and safe.
That we are approacing a time in life as never before
where we are constantly be held to have peace and security.
So much so that we know there are great issues that would have reasoned a revolution.
But we are on the verge of impotence in our ability to do anything about certain serious issues
for fear that our security will be compromised as a people, and we have become accustomed to such living.

I believe that as people are saying peace and security, then God will send the supernatural destruction.
Believers will be exempt from this destruction, as they are not in darkness that this day would so surprise them.
The time is coming when God will intervene, and cut short man's push for the complete global security measures.
We are so close in our world to being against God's will for our freedoms and so far from our reliance on Him alone.
So close that He will see the need for His intervention from our folly as we hurl ourselves to impending destruction.
God knew this time was coming and sent His message to His prophets to warn us that it would come.
I believe that this passage is saying that the impending destruction will come from the Lord on the Day of the Lord.

[Exit40]

Hi 4given. Hard to watch everything, but we have to try. I was just trying to point out a possible explanation for those passages.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Hi Tevye. I absolutely agree, the sudden destruction is the Day of the Lord.

God Bless You

David

[GodsStudent]

Fantastic commentary, David. My gut feels that Islam is the crux of anti christ and whether or not its blatant (in that everyone who is pushing the NWO or progressive agenda) say and do what they do OPENLY AND WITH DIRECT REFERENCE TO ISLAM, the fact is that their actions perpetuate a furtherance of Islams impact on the world. We are adopting islamic values and traditions in our very own laws, and whether or not our losses of freedom by and through these laws reference Shari'a as the basis for their existence, the fact is, in many cases, they have the appearance of Shari'a at their core.

Your commentary in the OP makes reference to Islamic nations telling non islamic nations to "cooperate" and everything will be good....with money being the ROOT OF ALL EVIL.....it seems not too far fetched to consider that the small steps that have been taken along the way to maintain a lifestyle (small compliances) have grown much like a snowball that starts at the top of a hill and gets larger as it rolls down. Even further, have ideologies set in as the groups of politicians from these nations work together? Have we gotten to a place where since we don't know what we believe anymore (some of us), and we don't hold fast to our own belief system in Christianity, we are subject to begin adopting beliefs of others as practical and applicable for peace and safety? I am reminded of the video posted here on FP where many of our politicians were saying those words, and the youtube video showed them, one after another, like dominos, claiming the same.

Just thinking out loud as I try to wrap my mind around the OP.

[Exit40]

Some of you may remember Iran's Ahmedinejad making the offer of peace through conversion to islam, a couple times to the US. Of course we did not respond and his reaction was one of relief, that being he can now attack us without being an evil person in violation of the quran. Islams 'aslim taslim' is the offer of peace. if you convert to islam you will have peace. This could also apply to submitting to shariah law, following it's tenets, and if you have not converted you can at least be a dhimmi, and pay the jizya tax that allows you live within islam as a lesser citizen, subject to the whims of the ruling muslims, which are not very pleasant generally. In the end the jizya tax will go away, you must convert or you must be killed. When the entire world has submitted to islam there will be peace, as there is no one left to fight.

If a nation fails to convert, is attacked and conquered it is the same for the individual. Convert and be safe, fellow muslim. You will be taught at a madrassa about islam, shariah law, and how to pray to allah. Your new life as a muslim will be controlled in every aspect, dress code, who you can associate with, etc. It's quite a bit tougher for women. But if you have submitted to islam, studied the shariah, and worship processes and do them, then you can have peace, unless a superior muslim takes exception to you. They can then take you to court for the slightest of offense to them and get a vengance decision where you could be subject to all kinds of mistreatment the judge deems appropriate, such as beatings, whippings, stoning, hanging, loss of property, if you even have any. The judge has a bit of leeway here and it could go well if he likes you, or may want to prove the importance of following shariah law by ordering a stiffer penalty.

There is a story of a nine yr old Iranian boy caught stealing bread, and judged right there on the street by the imam, who was feeling generous to the boy. He did not cut off his hand as required by law, thought it too severe in this case, so he ordered the boys arm be run over by a car instead. So now instead of having no hand he has an arm he cannot use. I have pictures that are real heart breakers if you want to see them. Guess this is their version of peace and safety too.

The timing of peace and safety seems like it would be obvious. If islam is the 4BK they would have certainly conquered quite a bit, Jerusalem and Israel, many nations, and at least be in the process of making war against Christians, and overcoming them. When it appears they have mostly won might be a time for them to say it, to the remnants about the planet within the conquered and submitted nations. The sudden destruction comes to those who are in sleep and are drunken in the night, the darkness, not to those who are of the day, who do not sleep as the others sleep, but watch and are sober, having Faith and Love, and the Hope of Salvation, are not appointed to wrath, but Salvation in Christ Jesus.
Something to think about.

God Bless You

David

[rizen]

The Day of the Lord comes as a thief. To whom ? Those saying peace and safety. A further qualifier is they sleep at night and are drunken at night. They are the people of the night, or darkness.

So peace and safety is being spoken by apparent unbelievers who will face the sudden destruction of the Day of the Lord, His Wrath. I don't think this narrows it down exclusively to Israel being surprised attacked by enemies.

Hi Exit40,

Take a look at Rev. 2:22:

Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

One of the things that it's really important for people to understand about the great tribulation is that just as the Day of the Lord involves a thief, so too does the great tribulation. What Jesus is saying here to the unrepentant of Thyatira is that "I" (Jesus) will make sure that you will succumb to the strong delusion of "Peace and safety" when the great tribulation begins. In other words, Jesus is guaranteeing them that they won't know who the Antichrist thief is when he is revealed before the DoTL.

This is what the phrase "and they shall not escape" is intending to convey:

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. (1 Thess. 5:3)

Because they don't know who the Antichrist thief is, they have no chance of knowing who Jesus the thief is. Because they don't know by whose authority the two witnesses were sent, there's no way that Jesus is going to forewarn them of His coming as a thief (Matt. 21:25-27). If you were to really examine what this passage is saying, you will discover that many of the unrepentant of Thyatira are actively involved in some capacity of persecuting another church's believers (probably Smyrna) before the great tribulation begins.

Jesus never comes like a thief to His own people. Not only does Jesus not come like a thief to His own people, He also forewarns them of the Antichrist thief that will precede Him. So there is never an instance when any thief of any kind can come upon the people of God without Him first forewarning them. The reason the unrepentant of Thyatira will not escape the Day of the Lord is because they never escaped the great tribulation--Jesus did not forewarn them of the Antichrist thief. As a result, they will say peace and safety when the strong delusion of 2 Thess. 2 is sent.

If you contrast the unrepentant of Thyatira against the book of Daniel, you will see that whenever a human king comes against God's people (Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego into the fiery furnace or Daniel and the lion's den), they always escaped. So from a midrashic perspective, if a human king casts you into great tribulation then you are guaranteed to escape from it. It doesn't matter whether you are alive or dead, there will be a resurrection. So from a purely theoretical perspective, if a human king casts you into great tribulation, then you are blessed because you know who the real thief is.

What dispensationalists have done is married the idea of physical pain and suffering with great tribulation--"Why would God beat up His bride?" Gimme a break. What the Bible says, though, is that real great tribulation is succumbing to the strong delusion of the peace and safety of the Antichrist and then suffering through the DoTL trumpet and bowl judgments, only to then be cast into hell for all eternity. In light of this concept, what is ten days of physical discomfort and perhaps even death. We all know there is a resurrection anyway (Rev. 20:6).

The point is that everyone is going to go through the great tribulation, the difference is who is going to cast you into it. If a human king does then you are blessed, if Jesus does then you have no chance. Therefore, the sure precursor to the sudden destruction that will characterize the DoTL are the unrepentant who will say "peace and safety" when the Antichrist thief arrives.

[Exit40]

Hi rizen. Thanks for your response. You have given me some things to think about, and I have a few ideas I am going to research regarding Balaam, Jezebel, and the Nicolaitans, the emphasis to be around the coming of the sudden destruction of those saying Peace and Safety. I'll be back, as soon as I can put this together.

God Bless You

David

[Tevye]

Still my favorite "peace and security" video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hkQy4PwZLg

Thank you to the original poster of the link to it.

[Exit40]

The Lord commends the Church at Thyartira for their works, and charity, and service, and faith, and patience, but has a few things against her for her allowing themselves to be influenced by that woman Jezebel. So who is Jezebel and what does she do ? She was a Phoenician princess who married King Ahab, the King of the northern kingdom of Israel, with the kingdom of Judah to the south. She was a real princess alright, a vain woman, a manipulator and seductress in her time, and thought to be the power behind Ahab's throne by many. Modern day Christian references speak of her image as an apostate or pagan, operating as a servant of God. In other words a false prophetess. I believe in the sense of the Letters to the Churches the Lord is referring to her as a Nicolaitan, whose doctrine allowed fornication as acceptable deeds, and also the eating of meats sacrificed to idols as a common practice. Modern day this is the Churches allowing things like adultery as nominal, unlawful divorce, common law marriage, and probably abortion as a product of self indulgence outside the Law, and eating foods prepared on days like the pagan originated and oriented Easter and Christmas, outside the Laws of the Lord's Appointed Feasts. Also, during her time as an actual queen of Israel she allowed and taught the worship of Baal. So here she is in Revelations as a false prophetess, and seductress of those who would depart from The Faith, and part of her background relates to Balaam who went to the high places of Baal to sell his curse on the Israelites to Balac. This all ties in, follow me along here for a bit. Check out this link too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jezebel

The Nicolaitanes were a sect, or cult even, that very much resembles the Pharisees, in that they are a prideful group who sought to ' lord over the assembly ' with their doctrines, a thing which the Lord hates. While there is no certainty in Scripture of their deeds and doctrines they were thought to lead lives of unrestrained indulgence, and taught as the pharisees did traditions and doctrines of men, but in this case they are self indulgent abusers of their flesh, allowing themselves to commit fornications both physically and spiritually, and eat meats sacrificed to idols, another way to say foods prepared on pagan holidays. Through their doctrines and deeds they too are seducing those of The Faith in their attempt to lead the fleshly inclined into their elitist heirarchy. The Church at Ephesus is commended for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, while the Church at Pergamos is condemned for have some which hold to the doctrines of the Nicolaitanes, as well as the doctrine of Baalam. The Lord makes a distinction between the two, however, they are related in spirit. Bear with me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaism

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/why- ... itans.html

Lets talk about Balaam. In the time of Moses he was a gentile who was a magician, seer, and ultimately received of God the gift of Prophecy, but for God's own purpose at timely events. The King of Moab, Balak, is frightened by the Israelites nearby and hired the renown gentile prophet Baalam to curse them. Baalam seeks a reward for his false prophecy, making him a false prohet also, but God doesn't allow him to curse, but rather causes him to Bless Israel, all three times he attempts it in the high places of Baal in the presence of Balak. Balaam later advises the Midionites on how to destroy the Israelites by seducing them, meaning the taking of their women and the adoption of their false gods. As a false prophet and teacher Baalam uses that position for worldly gain, seeking reward through his heresy and blasphemy. Starting to see a connection here ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam#Balaam_in_Apocrypha

So who is Baal then ? Baal is a name used to refer to any god and even to human officials; sometimes used for the name of Hadad, a god of the rain, thunder, fertility and agriculture, Hadad's name not being allowed to be spoken except by his high priests, and the lord of heaven. A lot of pagan deities are covered by this name of Baal, but Hadad and the lord of heaven are of particular note. I can see in our modern times a connection to a global warming green god agenda in Hadad, and a modern people who would follow this agenda. Then there is the lord of heaven, or god of the sky, or how about prince of the air. It fits, but somewhat hidden to those who do not know Scripture. How is Baal related to islam ? This goes back to ancient Mesopotamia and Syria. Read about it briefly here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglibol. Aglibol was an ancient moon deity, part of a triad of gods with the most supreme god being Beelshamên, or Bel, later to become the semitic Baal. His ancient attributes are the eagle and the lightening bolt. Aglibol has as one of his attributes the pre islamic sickle moon symbol, and is associated in this triad with Baal and the sun god Malakbel, or Yarhibol. There are references also to Venus as the evening star, in association with these. The sickle moon and the star, where have I seen these together before ? Hmm, the endtimes version of the original failed deception, gods of this world, all under satan, the prince of the air, now in the form of antichrist islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

I'd like to wrap this up but I have to talk about the jews of the synagogue of satan, as the Lord mentions them twice in his Letters to the churches, with one related reference to the depths of satan. There are tons of reference articles about them, and from what I can ascertain they mostly refer to Jews who do not follow the Jewish Law. In other words they are worldly Jews. From a religious viewpoint they could be considered those who would use religion falsely for worldy gain, but this does not encompass all of them. So in general we could make the association between them and the followers of Baal, and the doctrines of Balaam, the Nicolaitanes, and even Jezebel. What do all these have in common ? Through their vanity and pride they all falsely attempt to be called lord all the while being hypocrites to the Truth. They are false prophets and teachers in the world made by satan, and his kingdom of mammon. We cannot worship God and mammon both, mammon being treasure or riches where it is personified, as in the elitism of wealth equates to vanity of status and power, and opposed to God. Riches bring on the indulgences of the Nicoaitanes and Jezebel, including those of the synagogue of satan whose doctrine is the same as that of Balaam. Attempting to curse True Israel because of envy of the Blessings of the Lord to His People, they try to seduce away from The Faith by the worldly seduction of indulgence, which includes fornication both physically and Spiritually, and the eventual economic MOB, which through the stumbling block of the doctrine of Balaam, is to curse the True Israelites, and by reference those of True Faith in Jesus as Our Christ represented in all Seven Churches, receiving earthly reward for doing so, and committing themselves to servitude in the kingdom of mammon, satans world.

But why islam ? Simply, it is the most antichrist religion ever to come to such earthly prominence, and in a time spoken of in Scripture as the last religion to ever do so, our time now and into the near future. Plus if islam is the 4BK it is currently represented by Saudi Arabia, considered by many muslims to be apostate for their worldly indulgences, and Turkey, which represents the modern muslim, pious and humanitarian, yet successful in gathering riches. Their goal is the same, world domination, but they have different methods, partly strong and partly broken as a world kingdom to be. The Tribulation begins in earnest, if islam is this kingdom, when they have their world leader who can institute the MOB, seducing susceptible Christians like the Laodiceans, and the liberal progressives of the west, and all nations who desire to be successful or even just survive, into accepting the muslim saying , aslim taslim, submit to islam and you will be well. In other words, if you submit, taking the MOB, you will escape the Tribulation of the antichrist, buying and selling your way to earthly reward and peace and safety in satans islamic kingdom by cursing True Israel and True Christians, just as Baalam tried to do.

This is about as condensed as I can make it and still hold to the premise of the OP. I covered a lot of ground in brief so I encourage you all to read through the links, the related links, and the Scriptural reference links to help you form your opinion on this.

God Bless You

David

[laney]

David. This is a great thread. Thank you for all the time you take to detail things. It helps so much!

[Exit40]

Hi Laney. Thanks for the kind words. I don't know what got me started on this theme, but it was harder to stop than to keep going. All comments are appreciated.

God Bless You

David

[AndCanItBe]

Read about it briefly here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aglibol. Aglibol was an ancient moon deity, part of a triad of gods with the most supreme god being Beelshamên, or Bel, later to become the semitic Baal. His ancient attributes are the eagle and the lightening bolt. Aglibol has as one of his attributes the pre islamic sickle moon symbol, and is associated in this triad with Baal and the sun god Malakbel, or Yarhibol. There are references also to Venus as the evening star, in association with these. The sickle moon and the star, where have I seen these together before ? Hmm, the endtimes version of the original failed deception, gods of this world, all under satan, the prince of the air, now in the form of antichrist islam.

This jumped out at me from the link above.

Aglibôl was a lunar deity in the ancient Syrian city of Palmyra. His name means "Calf of Bel" ("Calf of the Lord").

A golden calf? Maybe I'm slow, but it never occurred to me that the golden calf Aaron built was anything other than a simple idol. I assumed that they just picked a cow because cows were fertile or gave milk or something. I never thought about a calf already being representative of some other god or religion they knew about, in which case God was way beyond exceedingly merciful in giving them the commandments again and only sending a plague!

[cmnr0912]

Just my opinion but I believe that many of the Muslim countries (those immediately surrounding Israel) will be destroyed in the Damascus war mentioned in Psalm 83, Obadiah, and elsewhere. I think this would allow for the temple to be built with little opposition. Most of the rest of Muslim nations would then be destroyed in the Gog/Magog war in Ezekiel 38.

Ezekiel 28:24-26
24 No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. 25 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.
Ezekiel 25:13-14
Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will stretch out my hand against Edom and kill its men and their animals. I will lay it waste, and from Teman to Dedan [Saudi Arabia] they will fall by the sword. I will take vengeance on Edom by the hand of my people Israel [Israeli Defense Force IDF], and they will deal with Edom in accordance with my anger and my wrath; they will know my vengeance, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Jeremiah 49:2
But the days are coming, "declares the LORD," when I will sound the battle cry against Rabbah of the Ammonites [Ammon, Jordan]; it will become a mound of ruins, and its surrounding villages will be set on fire. Then Israel will drive out those who drove her out," says the LORD.
Jeremiah 49:8
Turn and flee, hide in deep caves, you who live in Dedan [Saudi Arabia], for I will bring disaster on Esau at the time I punish him [Southern Jordan].
Jeremiah 49:19
"Like a lion [confederacy of Esau] coming up from Jordan's thickets to a rich pastureland [Israel], I will chase Edom from its land in an instant. Who is the chosen one I will appoint for this? Who is like me and who can challenge me? And what shepherd can stand against me?"
Obadiah 1:18
The house of Jacob will be a fire and the house of Joseph a flame; the house of Esau will be stubble, and they will set it on fire and consume it. There will be no survivors from the house of Esau. The LORD has spoken.
Obadiah 1:9
Your warriors, O Teman, will be terrified, and everyone in Esau's mountains will be cut down in the slaughter.
Jeremiah 49:20-21
Therefore, hear what the LORD has planned against Edom, what he has purposed against those who live in Teman: The young of the flock will be dragged away; he will completely destroy their pasture because of them. At the sound of their fall the earth will tremble; their cry will resound to the Red Sea.
Isaiah 17:1,9,14
1 An oracle concerning Damascus: "See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
14 In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone! This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who plunder us.
Isaiah 19:16-17
16 In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them. 17 And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the LORD Almighty is planning against them.
Jeremiah 49:23-26
23 Against Damascus. “Hamath and Arpad are shamed, for they have heard bad news. They are fainthearted; there is trouble on the sea; it cannot be quiet. 24 Damascus has grown feeble; she turns to flee, and fear has seized her. Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor. 25 Why is the city of praise [Jerusalem] not deserted, the city of My joy? 26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her [Damascus] streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the LORD of hosts.
Jeremiah 49:2
Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will cause to be heard an alarm of war In Rabbah of the Ammonites; It shall be a desolate mound, And her villages shall be burned with fire. Then Israel shall take possession of his inheritance,” says the LORD.
Zephaniah 2:4-5
4 For Gaza shall be forsaken and Ashkelon shall become a desolation; the people of Ashdod shall be driven out at noonday and Ekron shall be uprooted.
5 Woe to the inhabitants of the seacoast, the nation of the Cherethites [in Philistia]! The word of the Lord is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines; I will destroy you until no inhabitant is left.

[Exit40]

Thanks for the comment cmnr0912 . So who do you think will be saying peace and safety then ?

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Hi ACIB. That's a great catch. They didn't make that up out of the blue.

Aglibol was an ancient moon deity, part of a triad of gods with the most supreme god being Beelshamên, or Bel, later to become the semitic Baal. A lot of pagan deities are covered by this name of Baal, but Hadad and the lord of heaven are of particular note. Lord of heaven, who could that be ??? How about prince of the air ??? Our Father didn't reveal himself generally, to whole peoples or nations, except to the Jews at Mt Sinai. Satan has always, always been trying to be the god humans worship, in whatever form he can get us to take up. Anything, anyone, that is not the One True God, is of satan.

Interesting that The Lord was going to revenge Himself on the Jews for their idolatry, but Moses convinced Him not to, saying in essence, let me take care of this for you. He ground up the idols, sprinkled the dust on the water and made the Jews drink it. Then he asked of them who is on the side of The Lord ? And all the sons of Levi came. Then Moses said, Thus saith the Lord, put on your swords and go slay, and about three thousand of men died. Then came the plague. And none of that generation survived to enter the Promised Land, save Joshua, and was there one Levite Priest also ?

So it behooves us to keep our focus on our One True God, first and foremost, as He is very serious about His covenant with us.

God Bless You

David

[cmnr0912]

So who do you think will be saying peace and safety then ?

Good question David, It's not clear as Scripture just says they. I think according to Matt 24:29 ("Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from
heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.") that there will be a space of time (I don't know how long) between the end of the trib and the day of the Lord. Maybe when the sun is darkened and the moon will not give it's light, they think it's (the trib) is over and they survived. ???

-Mike

[Douggg]

Thanks for the comment cmnr0912 . So who do you think will be saying peace and safety then ?

God Bless You

David

Hi David,

If I might comment. The world and the Jews in particular will be saying peace and safety after the destruction of their enemies, the muslim armies, and the perceived arrival of their messiah.

The world will be rejoicing because it will be be the end of Islam the religion, discredited by Pslams 83 and Ezekiel 38, which Islam the religion is at the heart of all the terror around the world.

The Jews will be thinking that they have entered the messianic era. Everything goes relatively smooth, until the day that the Antichrist man, the false messiah, goes into the temple and claims to be god, revealing himself as the man of sin. At that point, the time of Jacobs troubles will come on the Jews, and the rest of the world as planet earth is plunged into the great tribulation.

Doug L.

[cmnr0912]

Doug, the problem I see with that is that the day of the Lord is after the trib and before the millenium.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.

[Exit40]

Hi Doug and Mike. Forgive me for attempting to answer you both at once, but I think I can do it properly.

Doug, the problem I see with that is that the day of the Lord is after the trib and before the millenium.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Here we have the time of the actual Day of The Lord, when they are saying peace and safety. The ' who ' is those who are in darkness to whom The Lord comes as a thief in the night. This sudden destruction comes on them, those saying peace and safety from the heart of their darkness, as believers are not appointed to wrath. I think we have to agree from the bulk of Scripture that the DOTL is the Wrath of God, don't we ?

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Here is the Scripture in context stating the association of the DOTL, sudden destruction, and the Wrath Of God, directed at those who say peace and safety, and pointing out believers will not suffer His wrath, but will obtain Salvation. This is at the end of the Great Tribulation. Matt 24:29.

As for the destruction of islam in Ps 83 and Eze 38...

Psa 83:17 Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Eze 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not [let them] pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
Eze 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this [is] the day whereof I have spoken.

Men will know Jehovah Our God is the Most High. He is magnified and sanctified and known in many nations, they know He is The Lord. He makes his holy name known amongst His people Israel, and will not let them pollute His name any more, the heathen will know He is the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. Then He says, it is come, it is done, this is the day He has spoken of. All this sounds pretty final to me, especially for Israel who He will not let pollute His name any more. No antichrist or false prophet can override these very words from God Himself. No matter the details we struggle with to get to that point, that is the day whereof He has spoken. This has to be the Day of The Lord.

So much of Scripture talks about our Lord's first coming, and so much more talks about His second coming, at the DOTL. How long ' they ' are saying peace and safety is not known, but we know the end of it. Not only is islam gone, the islam that morphs into the fourth beast kingdom, but any other form of government too. We are picking up the pieces and entering the Millenium, Our Lord is Our King.

God Bless You Brothers

David

[Douggg]

Hi Doug and Mike. Forgive me for attempting to answer you both at once, but I think I can do it properly.

Doug, the problem I see with that is that the day of the Lord is after the trib and before the millenium.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Here we have the time of the actual Day of The Lord, when they are saying peace and safety. The ' who ' is those who are in darkness to whom The Lord comes as a thief in the night. This sudden destruction comes on them, those saying peace and safety from the heart of their darkness, as believers are not appointed to wrath. I think we have to agree from the bulk of Scripture that the DOTL is the Wrath of God, don't we ?

Hi David and Mike, imo, the Day of the Lord = great tribulation + 1000 years.

First half (saying peace and safety) + second half (great tribulation) + 1000 years.


Doug L.

[Exit40]

Hi Doug. I used to think that too. But I have since arrived at a different conclusion. Here is another thought that helped change my mind. In 1Thes5:3 it states when they say peace and safety, THEN the sudden destruction.

Then..
Strong's G5119 - tote
τότε
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) then
2) at that time

Considering in the previous chapter which describes the Resurrection in vs 16 & 17, the dead rise first THEN we which are alive and remain....

Then...
Strong's G1899 - epeita
ἔπειτα
epeita
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) thereupon, thereafter, then, afterwards

Both words are adverbs, qualifier or modifiers of the context, but the first one, tote, suggests that when...then, as in it is a consequence of. The second, epeita, suggests an order of first, then next in order. Granted neither gives a time frame, but the first suggests a closer relationship in time within the context. So I am going with the saying of peace and safety is near the end of the Tribulation, bringing on the DOTL. Still we don't know the length of time ' they' get to say it before they are had.

What are we doing up so late anyway ? Good to hear from you.

God Bless You

David

[jgilberAZ]

The great tribulation cannot be the Day of the Lord.

Isaiah tells us that the Lord alone will be exalted in "that day:"

Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty. The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low: And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, [that are] high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan, And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills [that are] lifted up, And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall, And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures. And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. Isaiah 2:10-21

Which corresponds well with this:

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:15-17

The Lord alone is exalted in the Day of the Lord, not Satan, not the beast, not the Antichrist, not the false prophet ... the Lord alone.

This cannot be during the great tribulation since the Antichrist IS exalted, worshiped even, during the great tribulation.

- Jeff

[cmnr0912]

I think we have to agree from the bulk of Scripture that the DOTL is the Wrath of God, don't we ?

David, I somewhat agree, but I believe it is also the day of our "blessed hope" as I believe that day will also see the "catching away"/resurrection.

Luke 17:29 but on THE DAY that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. and also Luke 17: 26-27 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until THE DAY that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

So I believe on the same day just before the wrath of God is poured out, we are caught away to be with Him. We will not suffer his wrath.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

And also continue to verse 10; who died for us, so that WHETHER we are awake (live) or asleep (die), we will live together with Him.
This seems to say that the wrath of God is not talking about our physical deaths but the 2nd death which will happen to those whom his wrath is poured out on, or how else would verse 10 make sense?

This has to be the Day of The Lord.

I believe you have coupled two references that are speaking about two different events. The list of participants in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 are not the same. All those [Arab Nations] around Israel who despise them are conspicuously absent from the Gog-Magog led coalition. I belive the Psalm 83 war is also spoken of in Ezekiel 28:24-26"No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God."

I believe this ushers in the conditions of Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog war. ('I will go up against the land of unwalled villages I will go against those who are at rest, that live securely, all of them living without walls and having no bars or gates,)
I believe the Damascus war is spoken of in Obadiah 1:15-16 "The day of the LORD [Tribulation] is near for all nations [not yet happened]. As you have done, it will be done to you; your deeds will return upon your own head. Just as you [Esau] drank (past tense) [experienced judgment] on my holy hill [Israel], so all the nations will (future tense) drink continually; they will drink and drink and be as if they had never been.

I don't believe that the Ezekiel Gog/Magog war happens after the trib. Again the participants of armageddon and Ezekiel 38 are different and Ezekiel says that the Israeli's will be burning weapons and burying body parts for 7 years. If that war is at the end of the trib, that would mean that Israelites would be "working" burning weapons and burying body parts into the millenial reign, I don't think that can be.
- Mike

[cmnr0912]

Hi David,
In my opinion there's a distinction between the day of the Lord and the last battle after the millenial reign. The day of the Lord is mentioned in the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl, which would have to come before the millenium.
- Mike

[cmnr0912]

So I am going with the saying of peace and safety is near the end of the Tribulation, bringing on the DOTL.

David, I don't have Scripture to back it, but do you think "peace and safety" would have to be after the trib and before the DOTL? It just seems that it would be hard to say with all that's happening at the end of the trib? And I believe there's maybe a pause in between (silence for half an hour ?????)
-Mike

[cmnr0912]

The Lord alone is exalted in the Day of the Lord, not Satan, not the beast, not the Antichrist, not the false prophet ... the Lord alone.

I believe this also Jeff.

[Ready1]

The Lord alone is exalted in the Day of the Lord, not Satan, not the beast, not the Antichrist, not the false prophet ... the Lord alone.

When we try to separate out the parts of the final week, we do some injustice to the Lord's program, for the simple reason that it must all occur for the ultimate glory of the Lord. The beast, the Antichrist, Satan himself must all come to power for the Lord to ultimately destroy their dominion and power. Until they do, they will not be (nor can they be) put down. So to say that any of the unholy three are "exalted" during this period, is to ignore the ultimate power and authority of God Himself who allows them to come to power for a short time, in keeping with His revealed Word. Then He will destroy them, also according to His revealed word. This should show all humanity how great our God is. And all those who survive this time will have an opportunity to praise His greatness for the next thousand years.

[Exit40]

Hi Jeff. Agreed.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

This is the Great Tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, the wrath of satan. The DOTL cuts this short, or no flesh would be saved.

Muslims believe Jesus will return also, but will get rid of the jizya tax, convert many to islam, and abolish all other religions, bringing into play the OP topic, aslim taslim. Their Jesus appears to fill the role of our false prophet.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

So I am going with the saying of peace and safety is near the end of the Tribulation, bringing on the DOTL.

David, I don't have Scripture to back it, but do you think "peace and safety" would have to be after the trib and before the DOTL? It just seems that it would be hard to say with all that's happening at the end of the trib? And I believe there's maybe a pause in between (silence for half an hour ?????)
-Mike

Hi Mike. Good question, and one that forces me into my present jam and dilemma, that being the timing of all that happens during and at the end of the Trib. I am pressed for time today but I will think about this and hopefully will be able to devote time to study this more, and get back to you this evening.

No, not good question, great question !

God Bless You

David

[Seeker]

Hi cmnr0912,

but do you think "peace and safety" would have to be after the trib and before the DOTL?

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The sinners experience the sudden destruction so all we really need to do is look to see where the sinners are destroyed in scripture.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

It is when the Lord is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. That is the second coming of Christ.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There are the sinners trying to hide from the wrath of Jesus upon His return. We know it is His return because of the cosmic signs.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

These are the same signs we see just before the return of Christ in Matt 24. Notice that the tribulation is still going on before the 6th seal because they are told to wait until their brethren were killed as they were. So just following the tribulation we see the cosmic signs and then the wrath of the Lamb.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Immediately following the tribulation we have the cosmic signs which precede the return of Jesus.

Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

The cosmic signs precede the terrible day of the Lord and also precede the return of Jesus verifying that Rev 6 is a picture of the return of Christ in wrath against the sinners. The cosmic signs immediately follow the tribulation and the return of Christ follows the cosmic signs beginning the final phase of wrath as shown in Rev 6,16,19. So the sequence of events is the tribulation then the cosmic signs then the return of Jesus and the wrath against sinners as Jesus is revealed in flaming fire taking vengence on the sinners. That places the peace and safety somewhere around the return of Christ. I think it would most likely be here in scripture.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The AC finally defeats the two witnesses and the world rejoices. They think they have finally conquered Israel and those troublesome witnesses and boom God resurrects them and we see Christ reigning on earth at the 7th trumpet. They send gifts to each other celebrating the destruction of the two witnesses. This would seem to be the precise moment in scripture to me. It fits timing wise. We know from Dan 7 that the AC makes war with the saints for 3 1/2 years ending with the saints possessing the everlasting kingdom which is taken from the AC. That pinpoints the end of the tribulation as the end of the last 7 years.

The peace and safety happens before sudden destruction of the sinners which occurs after the 3 1/2 years the AC has power over the saints. This again points to the sudden destruction near the very end of the last 7 years at the return of Christ. The 6th seal would be where the peace and safety would be over as well. Rev 6 shows the sinners trying to hide from the Lamb as He arrives so probably the 6th seal is the tip off as well. The 7th seal/trumpet/vial all occur at the return of Christ. When they see Jesus in the clouds they mourn in Matt 24 so at that point they know. Just before that they see the cosmic signs. That would end their temporary false sense of peace and safety I would think.

Peace,
Seeker

[Exit40]

Hi Seeker. Good answer. It makes sense and fits the timing also.

Mike, still doing research.

God Bless You Brothers

David

[cmnr0912]

Seeker, I think I see what you're saying. They're saying peace and safety for 3 1/2 years because they have control since the witnesses have been killed. That could be it, but I'm still bothered because during the last 3 1/2 years is when the judgements kick up and many are killed, stung, mens hearts fail them for fear, etc. I just have a hard time picturing anyone saying peace and safety during this span. I think they could maybe for a short time after the witnesses are slain but it would be short lived. Like David, I have to study this further but kind of "shootin from the hip" I lean toward the silence in heaven for the space of 1/2 hour.

Me too David!

[Douggg]

So I am going with the saying of peace and safety is near the end of the Tribulation, bringing on the DOTL. Still we don't know the length of time ' they' get to say it before they are had.

Hi David, I don't think there is anyone who will be saying peace and safety near the end of the 7 years. In Daniel 11:40-45, there will be the armies drawn into the middle east fighting the Antichrist, right up until the time when the Sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven.

When the Sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven, imo, that is when Satan, the Antichrist, and False Prophet convinced the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus. Their armies are already in the middle east at that time.

Already in the middle east, they will assemble themselves at Armageddon and march against Jerusalem. So, imo, it can't be a time of peace and safety at the end of the seven years.

We hear a lot of talk right now concerning peace and safety in regards for hope of a permanent middle east resolution.

The need for that resolution is basically because of the Muslims world view. Eliminate Islam and there goes war and terrorism. imo, that happens in a pre-trib Gog/Magog destruction. And the arrival of the Antichrist man as Judaism's perceived messiah. The peace and safety saying will be during most of the first half of the seven years, until the day when the Antichrist man goes into the temple and declares himself to be god. The sudden destruction is when the world is plunged into the Great Tribulation that follows.

Doug L.

[Seeker]

Hi Mike,

That could be it, but I'm still bothered because during the last 3 1/2 years is when the judgements kick up and many are killed, stung, mens hearts fail them for fear, etc. I just have a hard time picturing anyone saying peace and safety during this span. I think they could maybe for a short time after the witnesses are slain but it would be short lived.

Have you ever considered that it might be the two witnesses who are dispencing parts of the wrath of God?

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The two witnesses have the power to smite the earth with plagues at their will. The AC can't defeat them until their 3 1/2 year span is completed while they stand in Jerusalem smiting the earth with plagues. As you correctly noted God's wrath is being dispenced during a portion of the last 3 1/2 years. If God is sending wrath to the earth during the same timeframe that His two witnesses are smiting the earth with plagues wouldn't they be aware of each others actions? It seems likely to me that God uses the two witnesses to preach to the earth warning of the impending destruction. The two witnesses are tuned into God if anyone is so they would most likely be aware of the wrath being poured out. I think the two witnesses operate much like Moses did in Egypt. The Egyptians were warned but would not head the warnings God gave. So God sent plagues to them via Moses and Aaron. The plagues the two witnesses have at their disposal are very much like what Moses sent to the Egyptians.

Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Would they be able to have peace after the two witnesses are killed? Well they are able to rejoice, make merry, and send gifts to one another at the end of the two witnesses 3 1/2 year ministry. I suspect the only way they could make merry would be in a peaceful setting. Remember how Jesus described His second coming? Just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot.

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

The day Noah entered the ark and the same day Lot left Sodom the sudden destruction came. Noah was warning them for many many years but they ignored him. The same for when Jesus returns to remove the sinners this time. It will be a sudden destruction to them as they are caught unaware. Noah and Lot were aware just as those in 1Th 5:4 will be. The brethren are not in darkness that the day would overtake them as a thief. We have to look at all the different accounts of the return of Jesus to understand the sudden destruction that is coming for the sinners. Their destruction occurs when Jesus arrives. So to understand we look at all the arrival scriptures that we can find. They are saying peace and safety just prior to their destruction. Their destruction occurs upon the return of Jesus making the peace and safety just prior to the return of Christ.

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

There's the destruction of the sinners again in Rev 6 at the arrival of Jesus. The cosmic signs tell us this is the same as Matt 24. The peace and safety would have to be sometime before the 6th seal since the 6th seal begins the "sudden destruction". We know the cosmic signs occur just before Jesus returns so again that puts the peace and safety very near the return of Jesus. It is all consistant from scripture to scripture.

Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

The DOTL comes cruel with wrath and fierce anger to lay the land desolate and He will destroy the sinners out of it. We then see this associated with the cosmic signs again. The Lord returns to punish the world for their evil and the wicked for their iniquity. The removal of the sinners is always associated with the return of Jesus.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

By knowing when the sudden destruction occurs we can correctly place the peace and safety just prior to those places in scripture. Each time that place is just before Jesus returns very near the end of the last 7 years. Hope that helps you see it better.

Peace,
Seeker

[Exit40]

Hi Mike. Thanks for encouraging me to get deeper into this. I have had a new revelation subsequently. While it seems the four horsemen of the first four seals have been riding since Christs Resurrection, I believe their manifestation has been in part, with their full final fulfillment yet to come. I could go on about this, but the important one that struck me is the Fourth seal.

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

I now see this as a possibility, the islamic antichrist and the power given to THEM as his muslim followers worldwide, or at least the majority of them, and definitely ME centric. Subsequently they set about to slay anyone who will not convert to islam, Jews and Christians in particular. What I need to show you now is that the muslim population is one fourth of the world's population. There are many estimates, from 1.5 billion to almost 2 billion. Here is one site's estimate.

http://www.islamicpopulation.com/

With the world population at near 7 billion I am thinking if we are not there, number wise, we are very close. I am also now seeing this as post AOD, at the very beginning of the Great Tribulation. Without trying to fit a sequence of battles into this, there will be wars and rumors of wars, the Jews and Saints will be overcome somewhere in here, MOB which may be pre AOD, great delusion and apostacy, two witnesses. You get the picture, many things happening in a short period of time.

Rev 8:1 ¶ And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

That means many Saints have already been martyred, and we have seen the signs of the Sixth Seal. The Tribulation is over, that being I am forced to presume, no more mass persecution of the Jews and Christians. Yet this need not mean the very end of the Seventieth Week, maybe. I'm going somewhere with this, bear with me. OK, here it is, the Sixth Seal...

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is where it had gotten very interesting, as this follows....

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And then, that word tote again, as in afterwards, at that time, as a consequence of what has happened, the end of the Trib, appears the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. Heaven here is ouranos, the vast expanse of the visible heavens so this is a visible sign to the eye sign. Then the tribes mourn first, because of the sign, and they shall see the Son of man coming after that. In our Lord's narrative here, Matt 24, we must find the time for the events of Revelation to fit in so let's look at this a bit.

Our Lord starts out His narrative in Matthew verses 4 & 5. The very first issue is don't be deceived as false Christs will appear and deceive many. Verses 6,7,& 8 are the beginnings of sorrows. These events have been happening for a long time but the context here is the time of the end. These are not the end but indicative as signs it is approaching, and probably ongoing right up to the end, although I think the wars will diminish, as in who can make war with the beast. Verse 9 through 12 are our first look at the Great Tribulation. This is a very serious time with a lot of persecution and false prophets, and so needs to be explained in greater depth a bit later.

Verse 13 is our Salvation, the patience and faith of the Saints, loving not our lives unto death. Verse 14 is the preaching of this Gospel in all the world for a witness, perhaps led by the Two Witness the Faithful will be helping to spread the Word.

Verses 15 through 22 are the AOD and the Great Tribulation, and those days being shortened. This could be important here, vs 22, that those of the flesh, the word sarx, describes the skin, meat, and organs of men and animals, where the blood courses through, and it also means natural state of man, ensconced within the body the sinful nature of unregenerated man, none of these would be saved. And shortened for the sake of the elect, the chosen. Elect and chosen for what ? These are people of flesh and bone also, the elect and chosen, to endure to the end, those who will be alive and remain. They will live beyond the Great Tribulation. How can this be ? The answer follows..

Verse 23 begins with the word then, tote, as in at that time, afterwards, and we are told not to believe it if one says here is Christ, or there. Verse 24, there will be the rise of false prophets and false christs, this time with great signs and wonders that would deceive the very elect,if it were possible. This is probably the time of the great deception and delusion with many deceived, but the very elect will not be fooled being told before, vs 25, with further qualification in vs 26. Verse 27 states how His arrival will be, and when He gets here, eagles will be on carcasses.

Further explaining events in vs 29 we have the cosmic signs of the Sixth Seal. And I am back where I started so I am going to repeat myself here... And then, that word tote again, as in afterwards, at that time, as a consequence of what has happened, the end of the Trib, appears the Sign of the Son of man in heaven. Heaven here is ouranos, the vast expanse of the visible heavens so this is a visible sign to the eye sign. Then the tribes mourn first, because of the sign and the consequences of it, and they shall see the Son of man coming after that... In between these two there is apparently a period of time for Judgments to come to the earth, flesh is given opportunities to repent, many probably do but the wicked do not. So then appears Our Lord coming in great power and glory. But still the wicked do not repent, but rather they gather to fight The Lord. Time is getting short.

Verse 31 is the gathering of the elect from the four winds, from one end of Heaven to the other. Get this now, the word is anemos, the four principal or cardinal winds, hence the four corners of Heaven, Heaven being the word ouranos, visible expanse of the sky. Those alive will see this from earth, including the living elect, as Our Lord is revealed from Heaven.

That covers a lot of ground without going into great detail. But I don't think we can garner the exact when and where and to whom for now, until the Two Witnesses show up to guide us. Perhaps we can come to some understanding beforehand. A lot of Prophecy is going to get fulfilled in a short period of time though it seems.

Mike, getting back to the silence in heaven for half an hour. First, who knows how long a half hour is to God. But it appears to end in Rev 8:5, when the Angel fills the censer with fire for the alter and casts it to the earth.

When are they saying peace and safety then ? If I stick to the OP in that it is muslims saying aslim, taslim, convert to islam and all will be well, hard to nail down but I think towards the end of the Trib, near the time of the deaths of the Two Witnesses. I need to get deeper into this, but also the need to examine all this from the perspective of the Olivet Discourse for the purpose of general perspective. Hope I wasn't too confusing about what it is I think I am beginning to see, emphasis on beginning. Running out of daylight here so I am posting without much editing.

God Bless You

David

PS. I see Seeker has posted earlier this morning. I've been working on this most of the day. Gotta run,I'll be back.

[cmnr0912]

David, I, like you, will have to study this, I'll try to get back tomorrow.
-Mike

[Exit40]

Hi Mike. My head is spinning about this, as I attempt to ' put it all together '. Lot's to study here. I read Seekers post and I agree, the Two Witnesses are very in tune with God. I think they do not so much do as they will, but actually do the will of God, in that they call down Judgments which are specified by Scripture in perfect time and order. I don't think they are a part of God's wrath, as if we follow the line of thinking we seem to be, they appear to die and be resurrected before the actual wrath comes down on earth, the sudden destruction to those saying peace and safety. The testimony of the Two Witnesses seems to be to point out the fulfillment of Scripture and bring the Judgments accordingly. Sorta like, if you do this, what Scripture says you will do, then this will befall you, just like Scripture says it will. It is Written, after all. I believe this can all be found in the Old Testament, the Law and the Prophets, and in the precedence found there. And during this time men will attempt to kill them but will be killed by the fire out of their mouths. We don't know how many times this happens, but a couple times otta do it for most that see this ain't gonna work the way we would like. But there will always be the crazies who think they can get it done, so who knows. Maybe many, why else would they rejoice ? Seeker is right, it will be like the day of Noah, and maybe even for a time beforehand for those unaware, the MOB'ers and non Mideastern converts who will always be second class citizens but have the worldly advantage of having done so.

Thinking about my last post and the Olivet Discourse, it comes to mind these are the words of our messiah spoken in time, His Revelation to John of Patmos is spoken from eternity, outside of time. Actually, where is John during the Revelation ? Is he ' up hither ' or receiving visions on Patmos ? I'm gonna check that out. See, the world we live in is the world of linear time, can't go back, can only go forward. I'm not sure where I am going with this , for now. Getting back to Matt 24, our Messiah's first answer is don't let any man deceive you. And then speaks of false prophets and false christs twice. The second time these two types come with great signs and wonders that could deceive the very elect if it were possible. Then, and this is very important feel, He says , Behold, I have told you before. This is a very serious warning about being deceived. I'm going to stop here and continue in a reply to Doug.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Hi Doug. I understand what you are saying, I have believed it will go that way too, to a certain extent. But getting deeper into Scripture I find issues with the timeline, and certain things spoken of, I can't seem to reconcile with that belief. So in searching for this reconciliation I have come to believe this is not they way it will go. I hope you read my previous post. I am thinking about the deceptions we have been and are going to face, with the second being, I believe, the great deception. We are specifically warned about this second deception as it comes with great signs and wonders. It is after the days have been shortened, the days of the Great Tribulation. Then we have the false christs and prophets showing great signs and wonders. So great is this deception it could fool the very elect, if possible. We are specifically warned about this. Then we are told if anyone says he is in the desert, don't go there, and if he is in the secret chambers, don't believe it. Who is this ' he ' ? I believe this is the antichrist, who has appeared to come as Christ. We also have the cosmic signs after the Trib, and then we see the sign of the Son of Man, and then the tribes mourn, and we shall see the Son of Man coming, not here, but coming, and the gathering of those in Heaven. Here is something I hadn't pursued, like the parable of the fig tree, when we see ALL these things, spoken of earlier, including the Son of Man coming but not here, know that it is near, even at the doors, ' it ' being the Lord actually getting here quick as lightning.

The point I am trying to make with all these ' and then's ' is there are periods of time between them, time for fulfillment of other Prophecy's not directly stated here. And after the Trib there appears to be a ' he ' appearing as if the Lord Himself has arrived and we are specifically warned of this great deception. If you read it in this manner then, OMG that word again, you begin to see that the deception is actually believing the Lord is here AT the cosmic signs, when in fact he has stated He is only near. It's all right there in Matt 24 for us to read.

This is where I am headed with all this, that there is time between the cosmic signs and the actual true end, enough time for the fulfillment of other Prophecy's. Now I'm just getting started on this, attempting to prove with Scripture what I am saying, but can you see what I am trying to say ?

God Bless You

David

[Seeker]

Hi David,

I don't think they are a part of God's wrath, as if we follow the line of thinking we seem to be, they appear to die and be resurrected before the actual wrath comes down on earth, the sudden destruction to those saying peace and safety.

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The resurrection of the two witnesses occurs between the 6th and 7th trumpet. The Lord is reigning at the 7th trumpet. The wrath is over at that point as shown in Rev 11:18. In Rev 11:17 the Lord has taken His power and began to reign. The kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of the Lord's and He will reign for ever and ever. That occurs at the 7th trumpet. By the time the two witnesses are resurrected we have already had the first 6 trumpets.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God is finished at the 7th trumpet. There should be time no longer.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

The 5th trumpet affects only those without the seal of God in their foreheads. This is part of God's wrath that would happen within the time alloted for the two witnesses. Jesus begins to reign at the end of the last 7 years shown at the 7th trumpet. The 5th trumpet is for 5 months which would take it back into the last 3 1/2 years overlapping the ministry of the two witnesses. They operate during the wrath of God. Besides that though I agree with what you say.

Peace,
Seeker

[Douggg]

Hi Doug. I understand what you are saying, I have believed it will go that way too, to a certain extent. But getting deeper into Scripture I find issues with the timeline, and certain things spoken of, I can't seem to reconcile with that belief. So in searching for this reconciliation I have come to believe this is not they way it will go. I hope you read my previous post.

Hi David, mistake number 1 is trying to determine the timeline of events according to the DOTL . I have seen this same argument go on forever at other boards as well. The timeline of events are determined by the AOD. The AOD has specific day timeframes attached to it; as well as, the great tribulation is hinged on when the AOD is standing a holy place. The peace and safety is before the AOD is setup to be worshiped, which in turn is timed according to the Antichrist man being killed and recovered.

The AOD is setup on day 1185 of the 2520 days (7 years). The Antichrist man thus must be killed sometime before then and come back to life as the Antichrist beast - with at least 75 days left in the first half. When the AOD is setup to be worshiped, the Jews begin to flee, because the two witnesses have been warning them to do so for ever since day 1.

Those who think the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 times the deaths of the two witnesses to the end of the 7 years do not understand that the 7th trumpet does not mean that the kingdoms of this world at that "instant" have become the kingdoms of God and his Christ.

The 7th trumpet sounds the third woe which is Satan being cast down to earth with a time, times, and times left. Satan being kicked down is the beginning of a "process" of the the kingdoms of the world "are become" (verse 11:15) the kingdoms of God and his Christ. This is easy to understand when a person reads Revelation 11 in its entirety, instead of stopping at the seven trumpet in verse 11:15.

During that process, which covers the time span of the second half (the time, times, and half times), in verse 11:19, it says that the time of God's wrath has come. God's wrath is in the vial judgments in the last verses of chapter 15 and chapter 16.
Just read 11:18-19 compared to 15:5-6. The 7 vials take place over the course of the second half. There is not going to any timeframe near the end of the 7 years, when anyone is going to be thinking peace and safety.

Back to the two witnesses, the AOD is setup on day 1185. The Antichrist man has been killed and morphed into the Antichrist beast shortly before then. We are not given a specific day. As the Jews begin to flee, the two witnesses battle the Antichrist beast from day 1185 to day 1260 - when the Antichrist beast kills them having made war on them ( 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them). It is then on day 1260-1263.5 that the peoples of the world celebrate - and say in Revelation 13:4, "who can make war with the beast". The beast has 42 months left in Revelation 13.

On day 1263.5, the two witnesses ascend. There is war in heaven (the second heaven because at the end of the 7 years the second heaven is going to be taken away in Revelation 6, at the sixth seal) and Satan and his angels are cast down with a time, times, and half times left (which is a little bit less than the 42 months in Revelation 13).

I am thinking about the deceptions we have been and are going to face, with the second being, I believe, the great deception. We are specifically warned about this second deception as it comes with great signs and wonders. It is after the days have been shortened, the days of the Great Tribulation. Then we have the false christs and prophets showing great signs and wonders. So great is this deception it could fool the very elect, if possible. We are specifically warned about this. Then we are told if anyone says he is in the desert, don't go there, and if he is in the secret chambers, don't believe it. Who is this ' he ' ? I believe this is the antichrist, who has appeared to come as Christ.

I don't think so. The Antichrist beast curses those who are in heaven. The saints, those who have become Christians during the time of the Antichrist (man and beast), know that Jesus is returning to destroy the Antichrist - those believers are the ones who would be expecting Jesus to return. There will be false Christs possibly posing to be Jesus, like the Miranda guy,
near the end of the 7 years, but none of those false Christs will be the Antichrist beast.

We also have the cosmic signs after the Trib, and then we see the sign of the Son of Man, and then the tribes mourn, and we shall see the Son of Man coming, not here, but coming, and the gathering of those in Heaven. Here is something I hadn't pursued, like the parable of the fig tree, when we see ALL these things, spoken of earlier, including the Son of Man coming but not here, know that it is near, even at the doors, ' it ' being the Lord actually getting here quick as lightning.

I don't think the comparison to lightning is to speed, but as to being self evident like lighting is obvious during an electrical storm - impossible to mistake.

The point I am trying to make with all these ' and then's ' is there are periods of time between them, time for fulfillment of other Prophecy's not directly stated here. And after the Trib there appears to be a ' he ' appearing as if the Lord Himself has arrived and we are specifically warned of this great deception. If you read it in this manner then, OMG that word again, you begin to see that the deception is actually believing the Lord is here AT the cosmic signs, when in fact he has stated He is only near. It's all right there in Matt 24 for us to read.

This is where I am headed with all this, that there is time between the cosmic signs and the actual true end, enough time for the fulfillment of other Prophecy's. Now I'm just getting started on this, attempting to prove with Scripture what I am saying, but can you see what I am trying to say ?

You are going about it the wrong way, David. (1) The AOD is the prime determiner of the course of events because it has specific to-the-day timeframes attached. (2) The other events fill in the rest of the timeline by simply grouping the like time frames (how they are expressed) found in Daniel and Revelation together. (3) And once a person realizes that Revelation 17, 13, 12 are timestamped as chapters... then the whole prophecy picture comes together with no conflicts.

Doug L.

[Exit40]

Hi Seeker.

The resurrection of the two witnesses occurs between the 6th and 7th trumpet. The Lord is reigning at the 7th trumpet. The wrath is over at that point as shown in Rev 11:18. In Rev 11:17 the Lord has taken His power and began to reign. The kingdoms of the earth become the kingdom of the Lord's and He will reign for ever and ever. That occurs at the 7th trumpet. By the time the two witnesses are resurrected we have already had the first 6 trumpets.

Actually I think the Two Witnesses are killed and resurrected very close to the Seventh Trumpet and are part of the first two woes. The Sixth Trumpet, one third of mankind killed, and appears to be part of the second woe. I see these as Judgments on men as at the end of these two trumpets, woes, the rest of the men not killed by these plagues repented not. This indicates to me, although they are not very nice people, they have the chance to repent yet. This also indicates it is not God's Wrath, where the sinners, unrepentant men, are destroyed. I do believe the Trumpets and the Vials of Wrath could overlap, but we haven't gotten into that yet. So I think there is merit to suggesting the Fifth Trumpet being part of the Wrath. Got Scripture ?

Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Here is where it gets really interesting to me.

Rev 10:5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The Angel Swearing this is the one uttering the Seven Thunders, and holds the Little Book, and I wonder if he is not also the Seventh Trumpet Angel. I believe the Seven Thunders, once heard, will be what explains the mystery of God. We will now know all that He has declared to His Prophets. I see verse six, that there should be time no longer, rather as a statement of, times up, as we still have a bit more than a thousand years of time to go. The second woe includes a great many events I think, including much of the Two Witnesses testimony. After the earthquake the third woe comes quickly, the Seventh Trumpet. This is where Our Lord actually takes command of the kingdoms of earth.

Rev 11:15 ¶ And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

After quite a bit of reading I am still convinced those saying peace and safety are doing so in the three and a half days the Two Witnesses lie in the street. They are definitely beast worshipers, and I still believe they are muslim.

God Bless You

David

[Exit40]

Hi David, mistake number 1 is trying to determine the timeline of events according to the DOTL . I have seen this same argument go on forever at other boards as well. The timeline of events are determined by the AOD. The AOD has specific day timeframes attached to it; as well as, the great tribulation is hinged on when the AOD is standing a holy place. The peace and safety is before the AOD is setup to be worshiped, which in turn is timed according to the Antichrist man being killed and recovered.

Actually, I haven't made that mistake. I started with peace and safety and in trying to determine the who and when went back to the AOD. I've covered a lot of scripture which I believe relates to that, with a few side tracks.

Those who think the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11 times the deaths of the two witnesses to the end of the 7 years do not understand that the 7th trumpet does not mean that the kingdoms of this world at that "instant" have become the kingdoms of God and his Christ.

I agree, talked about that in my above post to Seeker. Our Lord begins to rule with a rod of iron. Next up, the sudden destruction of His wrath.

The 7th trumpet sounds the third woe which is Satan being cast down to earth with a time, times, and times left. Satan being kicked down is the beginning of a "process" of the the kingdoms of the world "are become" (verse 11:15) the kingdoms of God and his Christ. This is easy to understand when a person reads Revelation 11 in its entirety, instead of stopping at the seven trumpet in verse 11:15.

Thanks, I have read Rev 11 in it's entirety and have come to different conclusions, and it was easy. And fun too.

During that process, which covers the time span of the second half (the time, times, and half times), in verse 11:19, it says that the time of God's wrath has come. God's wrath is in the vial judgments in the last verses of chapter 15 and chapter 16.
Just read 11:18-19 compared to 15:5-6. The 7 vials take place over the course of the second half. There is not going to any timeframe near the end of the 7 years, when anyone is going to be thinking peace and safety.

I see it differently. I think the following Scripture might nicely cover the time when they are saying just that, and actually is the point of this thread.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Back to the two witnesses, the AOD is setup on day 1185. The Antichrist man has been killed and morphed into the Antichrist beast shortly before then. We are not given a specific day. As the Jews begin to flee, the two witnesses battle the Antichrist beast from day 1185 to day 1260 - when the Antichrist beast kills them having made war on them ( 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them). It is then on day 1260-1263.5 that the peoples of the world celebrate - and say in Revelation 13:4, "who can make war with the beast". The beast has 42 months left in Revelation 13.

On day 1263.5, the two witnesses ascend. There is war in heaven (the second heaven because at the end of the 7 years the second heaven is going to be taken away in Revelation 6, at the sixth seal) and Satan and his angels are cast down with a time, times, and half times left (which is a little bit less than the 42 months in Revelation 13).

Doug, I realize you have strongly held beliefs, as do I. I am not able to agree with much of what you say as I simply see it differently. I don't believe the AC man need be killed and come to life as satan entered Judas who then committed his betrayal. Satan apparently leaves him and the poor wretched guy tries to give the money back, and then offs himself. After satan has been bound, obviously not within the ac man any longer we are going to look at the man and be saying , is this the man that ? .. etc. Regarding Rev 13:4, just because they are saying that doesn't mean no one actually will, and I believe the will be war with him. And the Saints will be overcome.

I don't think so. The Antichrist beast curses those who are in heaven. The saints, those who have become Christians during the time of the Antichrist (man and beast), know that Jesus is returning to destroy the Antichrist - those believers are the ones who would be expecting Jesus to return. There will be false Christs possibly posing to be Jesus, like the Miranda guy,
near the end of the 7 years, but none of those false Christs will be the Antichrist beast.

False christs are those saying they are Christians, but do not hold to the true Gospel of Christ. Rev 2 and 3 tells us who they are, today, and into the future also. And what religion is it again that is the most antichrist religion, ever ? False christs are those who fall into delusion and believe the lie of islam, the apostacy. False prophets are muslim.

I don't think the comparison to lightning is to speed, but as to being self evident like lighting is obvious during an electrical storm - impossible to mistake.

I am beginning to wonder, can I say anything you don't pick at just because you don't think so ? See below...

You are going about it the wrong way, David. (1) The AOD is the prime determiner of the course of events because it has specific to-the-day timeframes attached. (2) The other events fill in the rest of the timeline by simply grouping the like time frames (how they are expressed) found in Daniel and Revelation together. (3) And once a person realizes that Revelation 17, 13, 12 are timestamped as chapters... then the whole prophecy picture comes together with no conflicts.

Doug L.

I'm not going to get going with you Doug, but I point out that your first post to me in this thread started with " if I might comment " and no we're down to " You are going about it the wrong way ". This is your trademark method of posting whether you realize it or not, and you put people off with it. I'm sure you are aware none of us knows it all, but your presentation is that you do, and you talk down to people from there just like you are doing to me now. Lighten up Brother, I deserve better than this. I have presented Scripture and what I believe it means and I am entitled to do so without personal correction and opinion. Once again, your comments haven't convinced me of anything, although I have to say, my confusion about timelines comes from a similarly held belief to yours. But I also haven't completely disregarded it as impossible. I am not force fitting islam into Scripture, I see islam IN Scripture, all the way to the end of this age. What I believe is what God has said to me in His Word, right from the very first day I began to study Prophecy. So let me go my own way Brother, leave it to The Lord to guide me in His Word, and I will appreciate it if you show me some respect for it.

God Bless You

David

[Douggg]

[quote="Exit40"][quote="Douggg"]

....sigh.

From your post in Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:41 pm in the REVIVED ROMAN EMPIRE vs ISLAMIC EMPIRE thread. I bolded your text.

OK, rant over. I hope you realize I am not directing any of this rant at you personally Doug. I just went on a tear it seems and all that came out. I am open to correction, discipline, ridicule, whatever comes my way, but this has been brewing and I'm glad I got it off my chest. Problem is, this is just part of it.

Actually, I was not doing any of those things. I don't think I said anything out of line in my previous post, although apparently you took it that way. Now what I am supposed to believe when you make a statement like above and then get upset because I write something that is rubs you the wrong way? I will move on to other threads.

Doug L.

[shorttribber]

Can we all realize that none of us can be absolutely sure about the prophetic ideas we believe to be true?
How did Israel not "see" Christ when He stood before them and spoke the pure Word? Because of stubbornness and pride.
Blindness happened in part to them until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.............blindness "in part" will continue until the Fullness comes in...........We can not see plainly yet but we will when we see our Lord face to face.

History repeats itself...........we CAN see much clearer than those who did not know the day of their visitation......but the day of our visitation is no less mysterious.

Let us all be ready to be wrong, recognize and acknowledge it if it should occur and love eachother, respect eachother and acknowledge that any of us who truely study could be correct and we ourselves be in error......The Lord knows I include myself in such saying.

Blessings to all

[Mr Baldy]

Can we all realize that none of us can be absolutely sure about the prophetic ideas we believe to be true?
How did Israel not "see" Christ when He stood before them and spoke the pure Word? Because of stubbornness and pride.

Let us all be ready to be wrong, recognize and acknowledge it if it should occur and love eachother, respect eachother and acknowledge that any of use who truely study could be correct and we ourselves be in error......The Lord knows I include myself in such saying.

Thanks for this shorttribber.......the aforementioned is the absolute truth.