Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

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Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:58 am

A. Daniel 9:25a (ASV)
Jerusalem Construction:
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
B. Daniel 9:25b
Anointed one:
unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
C. Daniel 9:25c
Jerusalem Construction:
it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
D. Daniel 9:26a
Anointed one:
And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing:

C'. Daniel 9:26b
Jerusalem Destroyed:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
B'. Daniel 9:27a
Anointed one:
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease;
A'. Daniel 9:27b
Jerusalem Destroyed:
and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Hello brothers and sisters,

Above you will find an example of an Hebraic literary form called a "chiasm or parallelism", It is most commonly found in the prophetic writings and this kind of structure can be discovered throughout the entire book of Daniel. Some or even most of you are aware of this form of writing but I'm bringing it to your attention here to discuss and defend why I maintain the opinion that Daniel 9:27 speaks of Christ rather than Antichrist.

There are common grammatical rules that are generally followed in english and in hebrew whereby an antecedent will always look or refer back to the nearest noun (or something to that affect), marks is probably the best able to explain such a rule I'm sure, but common rules of grammar do not always apply where a chiasm or parallelism is found.


agree, or disagree?
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The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby mark s on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:02 am

Hi shorttribber,

Would you mind defining the rules or structure of chiasms and parallelisms for the benefit of the reader?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:25 am

mark s wrote:Hi shorttribber,

Would you mind defining the rules or structure of chiasms and parallelisms for the benefit of the reader?

Love in Christ,
Mark


I'll do my best
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:03 am

Chiasmus ------------quote from a google search-----------
This type of parallelism is often called Chiasmus. This form of literary poetry is done when a pattern of words or ideas are stated and then repeated, but in reverse order. It is viewed in the shape of an hourglass figure with the focal point being in the middle. A Chiastic pattern can be found in as little as one verse, but can also cover several verses, whole chapters, and even groups of chapters. This method of teaching was a very common literary form used by Israelite poets and prophets.



Having looked at several possibilities and ways to explain a chiasm I found this to be the easiest way to express the form.
The grammatical rules for such seem to vary widely based on so many varying kinds that can be found.

A goggle search will give you many examples.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby mark s on Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:03 pm

So it seems that there is a fair amount of latitude in exactly how these chiasms might be constructed.

So then its a structure something like:

A - topic 1
B - topic 2
C - topic 3
C - topic 3
B - topic 2
A - topic 1

Russel goes to the library.
The library is filled with books.
Russel likes learning.
Russel enjoys his studies.
The library is where he can learn.
So Russel spends his time there.

The "A" topic is where Russel goes.
The "B" topic is the purpose of the library.
The "C" topic is Russel's interest in learning.

Something like this?

Do the "steps up" and the "steps down" have to match exactly?

A couple of examples (not necessarily matching Daniel, but to show the pattern) . . .

So that, if the opening "A" is about the construction of a city, the closing "A" must be about the construction of a city? Or is it acceptable that the closing "A" be about the destruction of a city?

If the opening "A" is about a Godly ruler judging evil men, must the closing "A" be about a Godly ruler judging evil men?

Could it be about a Godly ruler rewarding good men? So that the topic is "what a Godly ruler does"?

Could it be about an evil ruler rewarding evil men? So that the topic is "how rulers reward according to their own morality"?

What is your experience with Chiasms, have you seen this sort of latitude?

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:55 pm

Hi Mark,

I really haven't studied them in great length at all, I've just heard of them and was shown them about ten years back.
The brother who showed them to me was standard 7 year 70th week pre-wrath. It was years after that I noticed the chiasm of Daniel 9:25-27 and out of excitement I called him to show him what I had discovered, he felt what I showed him gave him cause to greatly reconsider his position and look to a possible half 70th week future fulfillment as I do.

I have said on several occasions I could be in error about a 70th week split but the evidence in my favor continues to mount.

The reason I started this thread was because after searching and googling for quite a while for other examples for chiasms/parallelisms on the computer I finally remembered terms and found the example I posted here last night, it follows exactly what i had seen years ago........I was and am very excited about it :banana:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby wkc on Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:33 pm

Hey, shorttribber...just wanted to add that I have recognized the pattern within the above passages without knowing that there was an actual name and precedent for it. How very interesting.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby mark s on Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:28 pm

Hi shorttribber,

So the question here is . . .

Should the apparent chiasmic literary structure of this passage carry more weight in its interpretation then the apparent grammatical rules relating to pronouns and their antecedents?

My difficulty with negating the standard grammatical rules by saying that this is a chiasm, and therefore the topics must align, is that there are various ways we can parse it. What if, instead of calling "B" "Annointed One" we call it "A prince/ruler"? Suddenly it encompasses both.

Chiasms can match up "a city constructed" with "a city destroyed", and they can also match up "a city destroyed" and "a nation destroyed". It's all so flexible, I'm concerned that we will end up imposing upon the text an interpretational framework of our own creation.

My thinking is that we interpret the passage, and then use or not use the patterns of chiasms to describe what we find there, whether than to assert that it is a chiasm with such and such structure, and therefore we are to interpret it accordingly.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:24 pm

mark s wrote:Hi shorttribber,

So the question here is . . .

Should the apparent chiasmic literary structure of this passage carry more weight in its interpretation then the apparent grammatical rules relating to pronouns and their antecedents?

My difficulty with negating the standard grammatical rules by saying that this is a chiasm, and therefore the topics must align, is that there are various ways we can parse it. What if, instead of calling "B" "Annointed One" we call it "A prince/ruler"? Suddenly it encompasses both.

Chiasms can match up "a city constructed" with "a city destroyed", and they can also match up "a city destroyed" and "a nation destroyed". It's all so flexible, I'm concerned that we will end up imposing upon the text an interpretational framework of our own creation.

My thinking is that we interpret the passage, and then use or not use the patterns of chiasms to describe what we find there, whether than to assert that it is a chiasm with such and such structure, and therefore we are to interpret it accordingly.

Love in Christ,
Mark



I agree with you on this but only in part, some chiasms can be fairly abstract and grammatical rules should be the first rule to arrive at a proper conclusion but some are so obvious that we would be unwise and foolish to ignore it.

In the case of Dan 9:25-27 With Messiah right at the center of the chiasm at position D it becomes so overwhelmingly obvious that it commands our attention enough to allow the structure of the chiasm to over-ride common grammatical rules.



:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby slick on Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:34 am

Hello Shortribber,

I have read and viewed this interpretation and have understood the logic, almost to the point of believing, however there are a couple of glaring problems that I would need to see overcome prior to accepting this idea of a split 70.

First: as mark stated, the common grammatical construction indicates the standard interpretation.

however an even bigger problem Exists CONTEXT!!! I know that you are looking at the immediate context , but what about the previous, and subsequent chapters?

Look at

DANIEL 11:31

"AND FORCES FROM HIM WILL ARISE,DESECRATE THE SANCTUARY FORTRESS AND DO AWAY WITH THE REGULAR SACRIFICE,AND THEY WILL SET UP THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION."

now this particular passage is referring to Epiphanes, but there is an order to the events.....

now look at

DANIEL 12:11

"AND FROM THE TIME THAT THE REGULAR SACRIFICE IS ABOLISHED,AND THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS SET UP THERE WILL BE 1290 DAYS."

I could go on with a few other passages but these will suffice at the moment as they are directly related to the subject at hand.

When we compare the events them selves (Daniel 9:27 and Dan 12:11) the same progression of events occur, indeed even the historic example follows the same pattern, but our reference from the OLIVET discourse would seem to indicate aligning with the future event and not that of Epiphanes.

The second Issue I have is the concise timing mention within the immediate context:

DANIEL 9:25c


"...THERE WILL BE SEVEN WEEKS AND 62 WEEKS...."


clearly 69 weeks then......

DAN 9:26a

"THEN AFTER THE 62 WEEKS THE MESSIAH WILL BE CUT OFF AND HAVE NOTHING...."

The above passages clearly denote,AFTER THE 69 WEEKS Now I know that it doesnt give indication as to when "AFTER" however making the leap to 3.5 years after... would seem to be a glaring presumption given that there is no indication of separation to the close and beginning.

GOD-BLESS,
THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION COMES!!

Clarence



"
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:40 am

Hi slick,

The second half of the seventieth week, obviously, begins with an abomination of desolation.

This is how Daniel 9:27 corresponds to Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11.

The verses prior to the consummation referred to in Daniel 9:27 are concerning the coming of the Messiah and the cutting off of the Messiah.

They are not concerning the anti-Christ.

Daniel 9:27 is concerning both halves of the seventieth week, which would include the events surrounding the anti-Christ and the final outcome.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:41 am

Hi slick,

Glad you've joined in on this one.
slick wrote:DANIEL 11:31

"AND FORCES FROM HIM WILL ARISE,DESECRATE THE SANCTUARY FORTRESS AND DO AWAY WITH THE REGULAR SACRIFICE,AND THEY WILL SET UP THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION."


The passage you've given mentions an event other than an Atonement sacrifice and you've made that clear by understanding this to be an action of Antiochus Epiphanes: correct, no contextual conflict.

slick wrote:DANIEL 12:11

"AND FROM THE TIME THAT THE REGULAR SACRIFICE IS ABOLISHED,AND THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS SET UP THERE WILL BE 1290 DAYS."


Next we are given another prophecy that speaks of abolishing the "daily" sacrifice, again, not the Atonement spoken of in Dan 9:27. The "daily can be abolished by an action taken that would cause all who pray daily at the wailing wall to cease or be killed. Just to throw in an idea here, suppose somebody or some entity creates mass murder at the wall thereby causing the prayers to cease and whatever group or by the order of someONE set up all the dead bodies into a very large heap or pile. An event such as just described is a very real possibility and could easily fulfill said prophecy.

There are no conflicting scriptures for the view I hold..........I've searched for years........there are none.

shorttribber
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:49 am

Hi watching :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:03 am

Hi shortribber,

We just missed each other, didn't we?

Our posts were just one minute apart. :grin:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jun 21, 2010 6:11 pm

Gotta hit the sack early :cry:

God :blessyou: all
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby slick on Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:58 am

shorttribber wrote:Hi slick,

Glad you've joined in on this one.
slick wrote:DANIEL 11:31

"AND FORCES FROM HIM WILL ARISE,DESECRATE THE SANCTUARY FORTRESS AND DO AWAY WITH THE REGULAR SACRIFICE,AND THEY WILL SET UP THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION."


The passage you've given mentions an event other than an Atonement sacrifice and you've made that clear by understanding this to be an action of Antiochus Epiphanes: correct, no contextual conflict.

slick wrote:DANIEL 12:11

"AND FROM THE TIME THAT THE REGULAR SACRIFICE IS ABOLISHED,AND THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION IS SET UP THERE WILL BE 1290 DAYS."


Next we are given another prophecy that speaks of abolishing the "daily" sacrifice, again, not the Atonement spoken of in Dan 9:27. The "daily can be abolished by an action taken that would cause all who pray daily at the wailing wall to cease or be killed. Just to throw in an idea here, suppose somebody or some entity creates mass murder at the wall thereby causing the prayers to cease and whatever group or by the order of someONE set up all the dead bodies into a very large heap or pile. An event such as just described is a very real possibility and could easily fulfill said prophecy.

There are no conflicting scriptures for the view I hold..........I've searched for years........there are none.

shorttribber


Hello Shortrib,

Perhaps I didnt connect the two passages above with my point of contention with the split 70th theory...

I know that the wording of the KJV etc is different from the version that I use NASB, however

DAN. 9:27

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

there is still the wording that associates itself with "ABOMINATIONS" and "DESOLATIONS" in which I find cause to affiliate the passages that I have quoted with the above....as such in the former quotes a clear picture of both the A/C and the A/C "TYPE" are in view making the Daniel 9:27 verse as applying to JESUS suspect.

DANIEL 9:2

"IN THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS REIGN, I, DANIEL OBSERVED IN THE BOOKS THE NUMBER OF THE YEARS WHICH WAS REVEALED AS THE WORD OF THE LORD TO JEREMIAH THE PROPHET FOR THE COMPLETION OF THE DESOLATIONS OF JERUSALEM,NAMELY 70 YEARS."

this verse sets forward the "SUBJECT" or overall context of the chapter following, that being the JUDGMENT on ISRAEL IE JERUSALEM for their national sin.....note the above verse's use of the word "COMPLETION" we know that by no means was the destruction or diaspora,or indeed even the crucifixion of JESUS the end or completion of GODS plan of "NATIONAL RESTORATION" of ISRAEL. applying this verse in context with 9:27 as being CHRIST would once again fly in the face of "HE" being Jesus, but would rather imply the progression of Judgment culminating with the A/C.

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION ROARS!,
Clarence
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:27 am

Hi slick,

Of course there is similarity in language but because of a few VERY important words, they are different and require a different interpretation. Please keep in mind one of the purposes of the 70 sevens, "to seal up the dream and the vision".

What other part of Daniels 70 7's prophecy remains such a great mystery?

Keep in mind also your two examples speak of actions that require only aprox. 3 and a half year fulfillments, one past and one future. The 9:27 prophecy requires (3.5 Christ's ministry and sacrifice)split....abomination of desolation by Titus in 70AD.......more destruction and desolation.......as time has passed over 2KY+ time, more continue today....................split (the LAST and FINAL abomination and the revealing of Antichrist and the culmination of the 70th week for 1335 days).

Surely Dan 9:25-9:27 has been and continues to be one of the VERY effective seals for the vision wouldn't you say? :wink:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:55 am

slick wrote:DANIEL 9:2

"IN THE FIRST YEAR OF HIS REIGN, I, DANIEL OBSERVED IN THE BOOKS THE NUMBER OF THE YEARS WHICH WAS REVEALED AS THE WORD OF THE LORD TO JEREMIAH THE PROPHET FOR THE COMPLETION OF THE DESOLATIONS OF JERUSALEM,NAMELY 70 YEARS."

this verse sets forward the "SUBJECT" or overall context of the chapter following, that being the JUDGMENT on ISRAEL IE JERUSALEM for their national sin.....note the above verse's use of the word "COMPLETION" we know that by no means was the destruction or diaspora,or indeed even the crucifixion of JESUS the end or completion of GODS plan of "NATIONAL RESTORATION" of ISRAEL. applying this verse in context with 9:27 as being CHRIST would once again fly in the face of "HE" being Jesus, but would rather imply the progression of Judgment culminating with the A/C.


Hi slick,

The 70 years Daniel is referring to in 9:2 pertains to the amount of time Israels destruction and captivity in Babylon would be. If you continue to read you'll find WHY 9:27 speaks of Christ.


3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:

4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:

God gave Daniel the 70 7's prophecy in answer to this prayer. I intended to highlight or underline "keeping the covenant and mercy" but my typing keeps disappearing beneath the window.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:18 am

cont. from above post

It's good you brought up CONTEXT because Dan 9 is ALL about God keeping His covenant with Israel.

Cont. Dan 9:
12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

and further we read how Daniel prays for God to behold their desolation and be merciful

17Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousness, but for thy great mercies.

God answered the vision and sent Christ, The Keeper of THE covenant and The Keeper of Mercy.

This is the context of the chapter.

:blessyou:
Last edited by shorttribber on Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby slick on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:31 am

shorttribber wrote:cont. from above post

It's good you brought up CONTEXT because Dan 9 is ALL about God keeping is covenant with Israel.

Cont. Dan 9:
12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.

and further we read how Daniel prays for God to behold their desolation and be merciful

17Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.

18O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousness, but for thy great mercies.

God answered the vision and sent Christ, The Keeper of THE covenant and The Keeper of Mercy.

This is the context of the chapter.

:blessyou:


Hello Shorttrib,
our replies must have crossed in cyberspace LOL. truly a heated debate huh LOL!!!!

Again, just a difference in observation, keeping us from drawing the same conclusion yet arriving at the same ends to a means!

When I read Daniel's prayer in the opening of the chapter I come to a different conclusion perhaps then you do....I see Daniel as being slightly mislead in his interpretation of JEREMIAH 25. I believe according to the language offered up Daniel sees the COMPLETION of the curse about to occur at the close of the 70 yrs of Babylonian captivity, and the ultimate blessing of restoration on Israels divine kingdom appointment,I view the dispatching of Gabriel as a DIVINE correction to Daniels potential error.

As I mentioned in my previous post however, I dont really have much debate in holding to either view!!

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!,

Clarence
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:34 am

How long will ye halt between two opinions?

:fightfish:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:58 pm

shorttribber wrote:A. Daniel 9:25a (ASV)
Jerusalem Construction:
Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem
B. Daniel 9:25b
Anointed one:
unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
C. Daniel 9:25c
Jerusalem Construction:
it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
D. Daniel 9:26a
Anointed one:
And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing:
C'. Daniel 9:26b
Jerusalem Destroyed:
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
B'. Daniel 9:27a
Anointed one:
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease;
A'. Daniel 9:27b
Jerusalem Destroyed:
and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.



Hi shorttribber,

I noted something that you might want to consider

Jersualem Construction-Annoited One-Jersualem Construction-Annointed One

Now

Jerusalem Destruction ...should you consider the Un-Annointed One rather than the annointed One?

It seems that there is an opposite view now so if you ask me how I would apply parallelism in this case, I would sayIf Construction = Annointed One then Destruction = Un-Annointed One.

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:14 pm

Hi KA.

You're missing the whole point, look again, The Messiah is in position D , to put antichrist at lower position B creates an imbalance.

It could be as you say if Messiah were not in position D

If it went ABC-CBA you would have a point.

BUT

IT goes ABC-D-CBA Do you understand? You can have contrasting negatives and positives, they occur many times to teach in parables often but the balance is essential.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:23 pm

Oh I see... (like I said I am not familiar with the construction)

But how about this...

the people of the prince - as a separate category so that it goes

Jersualem construction-annoited one-jersualem construction-annointed one
the un-annoited one -jerusalem destruction-the annointed one-jerusalem destruction

Where both the idea and the sequence of the second are totally opposite to the first...

Just throwing out ideas...

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 7:53 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:Jersualem construction-annoited one-jersualem construction-annointed one
the un-annoited one -jerusalem destruction-the annointed one-jerusalem destruction


According to this you've just put Messiah back in vs 27.

And Messiah is still in postion D
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:42 pm

I am offering a totally new parallelism here. Yours have 7 points, mine has 8 and it makes perfect balance if that is what you are looking for.

Yours is ABC-D-C'B'A' although I must make it clear that C' and A' are opposites of C and A and it would still logically put B' as opposite of B. This leaves us to ponder what D would mean.

Mine is ABCD-D'C'B'A - D'C'B'A' being a totally opposite mirror reflection of ABCD. With this new parallelism model, there is no doubt what is what and it bears perfect sense since the first part (A-C) is about the construction of Jerusalem and the second part (A'-C') is about the destruction of Jerusalem, so it bears with logic that B-B' and D-D' should be opposites too.

Seems good to me :grin:

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:57 pm

You have a very good point and both have logical arrangement

this is another reason to allow at least a 1% chance of a seven year seventieth week fulfillment :wink:

Let me add this also, The earliest writings of any in depth study of prophecy in the ancient church by Hippolytus held the view that Dan 9:27 spoke of antichrist...................I just feel the evidence is much weightier to see Messiah in 9:27
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:07 am

shorttribber wrote:You have a very good point and both have logical arrangement

this is another reason to allow at least a 1% chance of a seven year seventieth week fulfillment :wink:


Phew! All that hardwork for 1%... I think it is worth it! Thank you, brother! :hugs:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 23, 2010 12:24 am

A higher percentage than is offered by those who can't imagine ever being wrong.

The Jews were blinded by the same folly.

oops...forgot :hugs:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:04 am

Hi shorttribber and Keeping Alert,

Here is the parallel I see:

Construction.....................................A

Anointed................................................B

Anointed cutoff................................................X

Destruction.....................................................X

Anointed.................................................B

Desolations end...................................A


Otherwise, the last mention of the Messiah would be when He was "cut off" and the vision would end with an unhappy ending, not a happy ending.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:56 am

watching wrote:Hi shorttribber and Keeping Alert,

Here is the parallel I see:

Construction.....................................A

Anointed................................................B

Anointed cutoff................................................X

Destruction.....................................................X

Anointed.................................................B

Desolations end...................................A


Otherwise, the last mention of the Messiah would be when He was "cut off" and the vision would end with an unhappy ending, not a happy ending.


What! We are not ended yet? All these literary structures are making me cross-eyed! :lol:

But if you ask me, your structure is too loose and skips over too many details. Also the happy ending is in verse 24 and verses 25-27 are just details in between.

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:14 pm

Hi Keeping Alert,

Keeping Alert wrote:But if you ask me, your structure is too loose and skips over too many details. Also the happy ending is in verse 24 and verses 25-27 are just details in between.


Verse 27 contains the ENDING.

And the ending is HAPPY not sad!

................even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 pm

I agree watching, sounds like a happy ending to me :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:35 pm

I'm not going to get into a debate here about chiastic structure because I do not know Hebrew and am not qualified to explain or debate how the chiastic structure would make a difference in someone's position on the Preterist/Futurist state of Daniel's 70th week. However, just recently, Dr. Kim Riddlebarger posted a reply to PreMillennialists concerning Isaiah 65:20 and cited one of his reasons for maintaining an A-Millennialist position was due to chiastic structure. You can read this post at this link here.

http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/ ... redux.html

Truthfully, I believe Dr. Riddlebarger was avoiding the issue and throwing out a term that most do not understand in an attempt to make it look like he does understand. If you notice in his response, he never deals with the actual language of Isaiah 65:20 and why there will be a future reality here on earth where death is diminished but not totally defeated.

I posted a response of my own at my blog. Chiastic structure does not make a difference in this case. And personally, I don't think it makes much of a difference in Daniel 9:24-27 either. You can read my response to Dr. Riddlebarger at this link here.

http://theorangemailman.spaces.live.com ... 1263.entry

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby 4givenmuch on Wed Jun 23, 2010 4:52 pm

shorttribber wrote:Hi KA.

You're missing the whole point, look again, The Messiah is in position D , to put antichrist at lower position B creates an imbalance.

It could be as you say if Messiah were not in position D

If it went ABC-CBA you would have a point.

BUT

IT goes ABC-D-CBA Do you understand? You can have contrasting negatives and positives, they occur many times to teach in parables often but the balance is essential.


I don't know much about much, but one of our pastor's recently preached on this out of a verse in Luke. He said the ABC and CBA act like bookends pointing to the main point, in this case D.
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:46 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:I'm not going to get into a debate here about chiastic structure because I do not know Hebrew and am not qualified to explain or debate how the chiastic structure would make a difference in someone's position on the Preterist/Futurist state of Daniel's 70th week.


I would tend to agree with you Mailman. shorttribber had a chiastic structure of his own. then I offered mine which made sense too. and then watching offered another one. which is the correct one is anyone's guess unless someone here can stand up and claim an in-depth understanding of chiastic structure and make a definitive statement that Dan 9:25-27 fulfills the definition of a chiastic/parallel Hebraic sentence structure. Having said all this, I think mine is right :mrgreen:
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:05 pm

no way ........... mine is :mrgreen:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:58 pm

The thing of it it, Hebrew poetic form is versatile and flexible. I think we need to determine the exact form and structure of the poetry by what it is saying, rather than determine what it is saying by the exact form and structure of the poetry.

We can all come up with different poetic forms, but the Hebrew allows them, because the form is not rigid. It becomes a matter of subjective interpretation.

Meanwhile, however it is that we think of the poetic form - which may or may not be intended - there exists within it bona fide grammar, which is much more set in its ways.

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:48 pm

Oh heck yer just an ole' fudy duddy set in YER ways :mrgreen:

:hugs:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:51 pm

I better hit the sack b'fore I get in trouble :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:41 pm

I think we need to determine the exact form and structure of the poetry by what it is saying, rather than determine what it is saying by the exact form and structure of the poetry.
We can all come up with different poetic forms, but the Hebrew allows them, because the form is not rigid. It becomes a matter of subjective interpretation.


Exactly Mark S.

Now I wish I had written something like that in my reply to Riddlebarger. :doh: :doh: :doh:

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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:49 pm

The determination should be made by both since part of the understanding of the text may well rest heavily on the structure of the poetry. :boxer:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:27 am

Hi shorttribber,

I am back to hopefully earn another 1% from you :lol:

I went to read up on chiasmus and found that wikipedia has lots of interesting examples. The problem is that I did not find your type of chiasmus there! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiasmus

All the examples listed there are even numbers sentences. Here are some of the examples from Wikipedia

A "But many that are first
B shall be last;
B1 and the last
A1 shall be first." Jesus (Bible: Matthew 19:30.)

A "Do not give what is holy to dogs,
B and do not throw your pearls before swine,
B1 lest they (the pigs) trample them under their feet,
A1 and (the dogs) turn and tear you to pieces." Jesus (Bible: Matthew 7:6.)

A "Make the heart of this people fat,
B and make their ears heavy,
C and shut their eyes;
C1 lest they see with their eyes,
B1 and hear with their ears,
A1 and understand with their heart, and convert [return], and be healed." (Bible: Isaiah 6:10)

A "Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
B to the house of the God of Jacob
C …and we will walk in his paths…
D And he shall judge among the nations…
E they shall beat their swords into plowshares,
E1 and their spears into pruninghooks:
D1 nation shall not lift up sword against nation…
B1 O house of Jacob,
A1 come ye,
C1 and let us walk in the light of the Lord" (Bible: Isaiah 2:3-5)
(Note: in this example, C1 does not fall where it is expected to fall; it follows A1.)


I am just wondering if you can show other examples of odd numbered sentences chiasmus? (if there are none, then my 8-point chiamus is the winner! :boxer: )

Even if there is such a thing as a odd-numbered sentence chiasmus, I would propose that the chiasmic points should be this

Jerusalem Construction
The Annointed One
Jerusalem Contruction

THE CROSS

Jersualem Destruction
The Un-annointed One
Jerusalem Destruction

Where THE CROSS is at point D and ABC and C'B'A' are inverted parrallel/chiasmus of each other making it totally balanced.

Blessings,
KA

EDIT TO ADD AFTER MORE RESEARCH: In fact, I am quite certain now that I am right for the 8-point structure (and also for my proposed 7 point structure if it is legal to define a 7 point structure a chiasmus) - it is called a ANTITHESIS CHIASMUS to be exact! http://www.drmardy.com/chiasmus/definition/definition2.shtml
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:10 pm

Hi KA,

Good post and very reasonable possibility, I'm hesitant to suggest this could be another reason to see a dual manifestation of the prophecy based on how such an idea can be received but I will say it lends support to my thoughts on the matter.

It may take some lengthy preparation for me to explain the dual and opposed prophetic implications I'm referring to but I intend to do so when time permits.

:blessyou:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:33 pm

Hi Keeping Alert,

I was never very good with math, but I am counting a lot more than 7 or 8 points from verses 25-27.


1) commandment to build

2) Messiah (7+62)

3) street & wall built

4) Messiah cut off

5) city and sanctuary destroyed

6) war/desolations/end

7) covenant 1 seven

8) sacrifice/oblation cease

9) abomination/s

10) end


And you thought my structure was too loose and skips over too many details.

Keeping Alert wrote:But if you ask me, your structure is too loose and skips over too many details.



So, let's see how this looks as a chiasmus or whatever.


A..............................commandment to build

B.......................................Messiah (7+62)

C................................................street & wall built

D.............................................................Messiah cut off

E1......................................................................city and sanctuary destroyed

E2.......................................................................war/desolations/end

D...............................................................Covenant 1 seven

C....................................................sacrifice/oblation cease

B...........................................abomination/s

A.....................................desolations end



Hmmm,

I realize that the counterpart for B ended up as abomination/s. So, I'm not sure what that would mean, exactly.

But, in any event, I really do not see this as a positive/negative mirror image.

So, it's still my contention that I see this as coming full circle and ending with a happy ending.



And since we're giving ourselves awards, I pick this one.

:award:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:57 pm

:banana:


It just dawned on me, if the first B marks the first coming, it seems quite possible to me that just maybe...............the second B could mark...................................


Oh, I'll just let you fill in the blank. :wink:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby Keeping Alert on Sun Jun 27, 2010 3:43 am

watching wrote:Hi Keeping Alert,

I was never very good with math, but I am counting a lot more than 7 or 8 points from verses 25-27.


1) commandment to build

2) Messiah (7+62)

3) street & wall built

4) Messiah cut off

5) city and sanctuary destroyed

6) war/desolations/end

7) covenant 1 seven

8) sacrifice/oblation cease

9) abomination/s

10) end


And you thought my structure was too loose and skips over too many details.

Keeping Alert wrote:But if you ask me, your structure is too loose and skips over too many details.



So, let's see how this looks as a chiasmus or whatever.


A..............................commandment to build

B.......................................Messiah (7+62)

C................................................street & wall built

D.............................................................Messiah cut off

E1......................................................................city and sanctuary destroyed

E2.......................................................................war/desolations/end

D...............................................................Covenant 1 seven

C....................................................sacrifice/oblation cease

B...........................................abomination/s

A.....................................desolations end



Hmmm,

I realize that the counterpart for B ended up as abomination/s. So, I'm not sure what that would mean, exactly.

But, in any event, I really do not see this as a positive/negative mirror image.

So, it's still my contention that I see this as coming full circle and ending with a happy ending.



And since we're giving ourselves awards, I pick this one.

:award:


Hi watching,

Having studied quite a bit into chiasmus in recent days, I am declaring myself the "unofficial" expert on chiasmus :lol:

Unfortunately, your model is not a chiasmus. For example, for your model to be a chiasmus, C-C' must have some idea that is related. Street built and sacrfice stopped has no relationship as far I can see.

An example of a chiasmus is the immortal statement - Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. See the inverted parallelism there?

You may check out the wikipedia link I provided above for more information.

So the :award: still belongs to me! :grin:

Blessings,
KA
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 27, 2010 4:52 am

KA has a point,

But I think the one I first used is the winner, just because it was first and it's what I think.

See how the word WINNER is in the middle of my chiasm?

That makes ME the winner :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby watching on Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:46 am

Not so fast, shorttribber. :grin:

I had a reply for KA, but I was going to let him enjoy his prize for a while.

But, if you're going to be that way about it, I guess I'll just have to go ahead and give my reply now.



Keeping Alert wrote:Unfortunately, your model is not a chiasmus. For example, for your model to be a chiasmus, C-C' must have some idea that is related. Street built and sacrfice stopped has no relationship as far I can see.


Hi Keeping Alert,

I think it does.

See here:

A......................................beginning of vision

B.............................................shabuwa begins

C....................................................building of city (see comments below)

D..............................................................covenant confirmed

E1......................................................................2,000 +/- years spiritual blindness for Israel

E2......................................................................2,000 +/- years desolations / church age

D.................................................................covenant confirmed

C.........................................................dismantling of temple (see comments below)

B...................................................shabuwa resumes

A.............................................end of vision


Comments regarding C/C:

Just as it took some time from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem, until the actual building was completed, it also took some time from the time that the veil was rent, and the sacrifice and present was caused to cease (Hebrews 10) to the time that the actual physical destruction of the temple and the actual physical stopping of the sacrifice occurred when the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d.


Now, hand it over.

:award:


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Re: Literary structure of Daniel 9:25-Daniel 9:27

Postby shorttribber on Sun Jun 27, 2010 5:50 am

You guys are a riot :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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