ENP(I) Theory Holes

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby 1whowaits on Sun May 23, 2010 9:15 pm

Mr B, 2 Thess 2:4 does not look metaphoric to me, the interpretations you list (NIV, KJV) translate that the AC is stating that he is god, 'showing himself that he is god' and 'proclaiming himself to be god'. And looking at the parallel Bible pretty much all the translations agree that this is literal, not metaphoric.

2 Thess 2 states that the AC 'exalts himself over everything that is called god', is that literal or metaphoric? If it were metaphoric then any other passage that describes this event should do so in a metaphoric way. But Dan 11, which does describe this same event, describes it as literal, 'he will exalt himself above every god..nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.'

The AC exalts himself over every god, even the God of gods, but then he does not indicate that he himself is a god? That is not logical, that the AC would say that he is over every deity but then say that he was not deity himself but only a man makes no sense whatsoever. To exalt oneself over every god/deity one would have to aknowledge that deities exist (he is not an atheist) and then place oneself in a higher position, being a mortal is not a higher position and would make a mockery of his statement.

And i would agree that the AC is a man of war, as Dan 11 states he uses what appears to be Satan's power to conquer fortresses. The AC does not suddenly appear on the scene, he is active and subues 3 kings of the 10 prior to taking over, he is involved and visible prior to the 42 months that he has authority over the nations. According to Rev 17 the 10 kings give their power to the AC and then he rules, and he rules the world. As the 10 kings give their authority to the beast and the beast then rules the world, it would appear that prior to that point the 10 kings ruled significant parts of the world themselves, otherwise the giving of their power to the AC would be of little significance.

Which would rule out the 10 kings being the WEU at this time, the 10 nations of the WEU do not together rule the world or anything approaching that, nor could giving any individual their power contribute significantly to that person ruling the world. Unless Europe conquers the world in the next week, the WEU would not be the 10 kings and then the ENP would not be the time of the 70th week.

Oh yeah, 1 more week or so until the retiree rules the world for 42 months (if the ENP theory is true), as he is a retiree do you think he will honor pensions when the economies collapse? Free nursing home care perhaps?
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby ampersand on Sun May 23, 2010 9:21 pm

Good point, David.

Actually now that I thought about it some more, I guess the question is: did anyone other than Mary, Joseph, and Elizabeth 'know' before He came (using for example, Daniel's prophecies) -- after all, that's how we are positioning ourselves when studying prophecy.

So, the fact that the shepherds, Anna, Simeon, and then the magi 'knew' isn't a great comparison to those of us watching for His second coming, because they knew "after the fact", as David pointed out.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon May 24, 2010 12:38 am

1whowaits wrote:Mr B, 2 Thess 2:4 does not look metaphoric to me, the interpretations you list (NIV, KJV) translate that the AC is stating that he is god, 'showing himself that he is god' and 'proclaiming himself to be god'. And looking at the parallel Bible pretty much all the translations agree that this is literal, not metaphoric.

2 Thess 2 states that the AC 'exalts himself over everything that is called god', is that literal or metaphoric? If it were metaphoric then any other passage that describes this event should do so in a metaphoric way. But Dan 11, which does describe this same event, describes it as literal, 'he will exalt himself above every god..nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all.'


1whowaits,

First of all I think you need to understand what a "metaphor" is. A metaphor is a "comparison" - using a comparison in such language to "as" or "like". It can even be an "analogy". It is not something "literal" as you have stated. The language in 2 Thessalonians 2; in describing what the AC will do is "metaphoric" language.

1whowaits wrote:Oh yeah, 1 more week or so until the retiree rules the world for 42 months (if the ENP theory is true), as he is a retiree do you think he will honor pensions when the economies collapse? Free nursing home care perhaps?


A little humor I see....well ha, ha, ha. I love a person who has humor. :mrgreen: Now, that you have had your laugh, I see that you have either ignored what I have been posting, or you are ignorant to what the ENP(I) theory actually is.

The coming AC will only have 3.5 years to reign. It will NOT be a 7 year time period, as some will have you believe, nor does Scripture even indicate a 7 year tribulation period. Nor does Scripture "divide" the final 7 years into two parts. As a matter of fact, the only thing that Scripture even associates this final 7 year period with the coming AC is the fact that he confirms a Covenant with Many; and he stops animal sacrifices and grain offering in the middle of that 7 year period. This action actually leads us to the AOD - which Jesus points us to, and "Great Tribulation" begins.

Now you may joke about the ENP(I) theory, but you can't deny the facts. You also may want to know that the coming AC won't just step on the scene an immediately have control over the entire World - and this is whether or not you believe the ENP(I) theory has any merit or not. His control will be a progression, Scripture is clear on that. Again, the man will only have 42 months to reign. You also may want to make a mental note that the middle of the ENP(I) theory should come around June 14, 2010; however, Scripture indicates that from the stoppage of the animal sacrifices, and grain offering and the AOD will be 1,290 days (Daniel 12:11) - so an additional 30 day period to the 1,260 days may be required before one would notice any significant change - if any at all. (This is provided to you, so that you understand that your "week" indication, as far as the midpoint closing in, is in error).

You may also want to make a mental note that the AC must remain hidden, until the proper time that he can be revealed,(2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) - so the comment about the "retiree" ruling the World fits right along with Scripture. And by the way...just make sure that you don't accept his Mark, so that you can avoid staying out of those nursing homes, or receiving a pension so that you can eat. Don't get confused, looking for a man to take control of the world, handing out a stamp with 666 on it in one hand, and a box of free Government cheese; so you can eat, in the other. :mrgreen:

In closing, the ENP(I) theory has more evidence based on Scripture- which can be supported by geopolitical events, and signs in the World itself - than any holes which you have provided, and that with absolutely no Biblical support whatsoever. Perhaps you can do just a wee bit more homework on the ENP(I) theory, and get some understanding. The evidence is there. And you may want to at least wait until after the midpoint before you totally shoot it down.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon May 24, 2010 1:16 am

1whowaits wrote:According to Rev 17 the 10 kings give their power to the AC and then he rules, and he rules the world. As the 10 kings give their authority to the beast and the beast then rules the world, it would appear that prior to that point the 10 kings ruled significant parts of the world themselves, otherwise the giving of their power to the AC would be of little significance.


1whowaits,

Let's please use Scripture as our reference, and not your assumptions, or opinions. Let's do take a look at Revelation 17:12-13:

12) "The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13) They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.

The aforementioned passage of Scripture clearly state that the 10 kings have not yet received a kingdom, which is contrary to your statement; in that you have stated that "it would appear that prior to" them giving their authority to the beast they "ruled significant parts of the world". You further mention that "otherwise the giving of their power to the AC would be of little significance". Well again, let's use Scripture as our reference - verse 13 clearly indicates that the 10 kings "have one purpose". Their one purpose is to give their power and authority to the beast. They only receive authority as kings for "one hour" and that with the beast.

1whowaits wrote:Which would rule out the 10 kings being the WEU at this time, the 10 nations of the WEU do not together rule the world or anything approaching that, nor could giving any individual their power contribute significantly to that person ruling the world. Unless Europe conquers the world in the next week, the WEU would not be the 10 kings and then the ENP would not be the time of the 70th week.


Here again you clearly fail to understand what is going on with the WEU, and it's potential relation to the ENP(I) theory. First of all the WEU will only exist until at or around June 2011 - this is time for it to fulfill it's mission, (if it is indeed the 10 kings); in that it has "one purpose" and that is to give it's power and authority to the beast. The midpoint of the ENP(I) is approaching - which would bring about the AOD, and chaos; the WEU is the Military Wing of the EU; Recommendation 666 could be enacted; and according to Revelation 13:5 - "Authority to Act" or "Power to Continue" will be granted to the coming Antichrist (beast) for 42 months. A time of chaos would be a time for the AC to come to the platform (possibly out of retirement) so that the WEU could invoke it's power. So it all fits.

So in closing 1whowaits, your facts are not together.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Douggg on Mon May 24, 2010 2:25 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Douggg wrote:If I might comment. The AC will eventually be worshiped as god, because he goes into the temple to show that he is god. Which the act itself is a claim to be god. There will be an image of him made that everyone will be required to worship.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Douggg, honestly, do you really believe that the aforementioned verse of Scripture is literal?

There isn't a single man on this planet, or even Satan himself that has the power to literally give life to an inanimate object and make it speak.

For those that take this passage of Scriptural literal, (in my humble opinion) this would be yet another example of how Scripture gets "sensationalized" to fit a particular End Time ideology.


Hi Mr. Baldy, :mrgreen:

What don't you read your bible? :mrgreen: Such a thing has already happened.. literaly. Remember when Aaron threw down Moses's rod in Pharaoh's court and it turned into a snake? Then two of Pharaoh's occult majicians did the same thing and their rods became living snakes as well.

Those two snakes, what were they? Just plain snakes or perhaps fallen angels taking the form of snakes?

The statue image of the Antichrist, imo, comes alive because it will be indwelt by Satan. If you notice the world worships the dragon as well as the Antichrist in Revelation 13:4. When the world worships the living image, they will be worshiping Satan himself who will be the living being cloaked in the outer facade of the image.

There is no mention of what happens to the image when Jesus returns. There is a prophesy in Ezekiel 28:17 about Satan being exposed before the kings of the earth after he is cast down. imo, that will take place on the temple mount at Jesus's return, when the facade of the image is removed, melted away like a wax figure imo, and Satan will be exposed for all to see him fulfilling Ezekiel 28:17. Then Jesus will destroy the armies gathered around Jerusalem and in the Jordan river valley and the Kidron valley.

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Wickus on Mon May 24, 2010 4:03 am

david wrote:
ampersand wrote:
mark s wrote:When Jesus was born, it was just a few shepherds, and some magi.
...

...and Anna & Simeon knew exactly who He was when they saw the 8-day-old Baby in the temple.


The Magi knew also, even before they got there, and Herod too and the soldiers and... maybe the whole town by that time. Typically 99% of prophecy is understood only after it comes to pass.

(Disclaimer: This is a not a promotional comment in support of the ENPI and
in no certain terms is an endorsement there of. :grin: )


david


But it does proof in a way that an unknown ENP, only watched by some internet surfers can still be the deal, and will only be noticed by more people when it comes to pass. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby watching on Mon May 24, 2010 7:13 am

Okay,

:duel: Touche.

But how about this hole?

Daniel 8, Daniel 11, and Daniel 12 speak of a "daily" [something] being taken away. The word [sacrifice] was added in by the translators.http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8548&t=KJV

Theoretically, this could apply to the daily bloodless sacrifice of prayers being made at the wailing wall, or the daily bloodless sacrifice of prayers, or the partaking of the Eucharist, being done in Christian churches throughout the world, or any other kind of worship. (Remember, I said theoretically.)

And this theoretically can be done, by whomever the AC might be, at anytime, without the need for a temple or animal sacrifices to be resumed.

However, Daniel 9 speaks of an actual blood* sacrifice (correction: I only said blood because it involves the slaying of an animal, not that the blood was presented as a sacrifice. Just wanted to make that clear.) and it is the only reference out of the four which is not preceded by the word tamyid (daily), for one to make the inference that this is speaking of the daily burnt offerings, which were offered once in the morning and once in the evening. So, the implication is that this is referring to another type of sacrifice, such as the annual Passover sacrifice, just as the definition implies, as well.http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2077&t=KJV

Besides that, Daniel 12:11 says,

Dan 12:11

And from the time 6256 [that] the daily 8548 [sacrifice] shall be taken away 5493 , and the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 set up 5414 , [there shall be] a thousand 505 two hundred 3967 and ninety 8673 days 3117


so, it's already too late to try to fit this into the ENPi timeframe, because from the way I'm understanding this verse, the daily [sacrifice] would have either had to be taken away 30 days prior to the AOD, or 1,290 days prior to the AOD.........unless, of course, there is some other way to understand this verse that I am not aware of. :dunno:

edited for correction
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby eschologizer on Mon May 24, 2010 9:15 am

June 20, 2010 = 1290 days until the end of the 2007-2013 ENPI.

Just food for thought.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby watching on Mon May 24, 2010 10:18 am

Hi eschologizer,

Sorry for the mistake, I thought the midpoint was sooner than that.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Wickus on Mon May 24, 2010 10:57 am

Some thoughts on the stopping of sacrifice in the middle of the week:

It is a fact that blood sacrifice has not been offered in Israel for 2000 years. It is a fact that Jesus was the final blood sacrifice offered. It is a fact that the prayers and service to God as His children is a sacrifice on to Him.

It is a fact that the Bible does not call for temple or blood sacrifices to be reinstated in the end times. It is a fact that these type of sacrifice will be an abomination to the Lord.

It is also a fact that the Bible says sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 70th week.

Now how do we make sense of all these facts?

Here is my little theory, and it can be flawed. I will say that daily sacrifice by the Jews was never meant to be reinstated and never will. When the AoD happens, any hope that the Jews had of reinstating sacrifices will vanish like mist in the sun. He (the AC) will stop any hope of sacrifice that they ever had. Jesus said that when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you know that its desolation is near. I still see the AoD as something to do with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies like NATO (as we currently see in the news). What will trigger the fleeing of the Jews still has to be seen, but whatever triggers it will also stop all hope of sacrifice. This will spread worldwide to us Christians as we will be forced not to sacrifice prayers to our Lord.

Like I said this is my little theory, and I do not claim it to be correct. :a2:
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon May 24, 2010 11:06 am

Douggg wrote:Hi Mr. Baldy,

What don't you read your bible? Such a thing has already happened.. literaly. Remember when Aaron threw down Moses's rod in Pharaoh's court and it turned into a snake? Then two of Pharaoh's occult majicians did the same thing and their rods became living snakes as well.

Those two snakes, what were they? Just plain snakes or perhaps fallen angels taking the form of snakes?


Well, well, well.......now Dougggy :mrgreen: - lets do take a look at Exodus 7:10-12:

10) So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.

11) Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.

12) For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.

Now, a careful reading of this particular passage of Scripture will clearly show you that the "magicians" "did the same with their secret arts." This action performed by the magicians was counterfeit, and cunning - work done by the power of Satan in an effort to deceive those who were watching; hence you have Scripture stating that it was performed by "secret arts". The work done by Aaron throwing the staff down was performed by God.

So Dougggy, now let me ask you.....do you read your bible? :mrgreen:
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby mark s on Mon May 24, 2010 11:09 am

Lest we forget rule #1 . . .

1. Our number one rule is from our Lord Himself. We are to love each other, no matter how deeply we may disagree. If we can't even handle each other, how are we going to handle persecution? So, if it can't be said in love, don't say it.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby david on Mon May 24, 2010 11:51 am

Wickus wrote:Some thoughts on the stopping of sacrifice in the middle of the week:

It is a fact that blood sacrifice has not been offered in Israel for 2000 years. It is a fact that Jesus was the final blood sacrifice offered. It is a fact that the prayers and service to God as His children is a sacrifice on to Him.

It is a fact that the Bible does not call for temple or blood sacrifices to be reinstated in the end times. It is a fact that these type of sacrifice will be an abomination to the Lord.

It is also a fact that the Bible says sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 70th week.

Now how do we make sense of all these facts?

Here is my little theory, and it can be flawed. I will say that daily sacrifice by the Jews was never meant to be reinstated and never will. When the AoD happens, any hope that the Jews had of reinstating sacrifices will vanish like mist in the sun. He (the AC) will stop any hope of sacrifice that they ever had. Jesus said that when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you know that its desolation is near. I still see the AoD as something to do with Jerusalem being surrounded by armies like NATO (as we currently see in the news). What will trigger the fleeing of the Jews still has to be seen, but whatever triggers it will also stop all hope of sacrifice. This will spread worldwide to us Christians as we will be forced not to sacrifice prayers to our Lord.

Like I said this is my little theory, and I do not claim it to be correct. :a2:



Wikus I think you are on to something here.
After some recent consideration of this the passages of Daniel 9:25-9-27, I am reconsidering my position.

What never made any sense to me is how in the world can a modern interpretation of 9:25 start with "And", disconnecting it from the rest of the the passages above, causing it to refer outside the previous context and to a different person. It makes no textual or grammatical sense. If this particular "and" is parsed out, why then not all the others that precede it as well? What really gets me is, I fell for for this false interpretation most of my latter years of studies which culminated in the following of EU-AC-ENPI 7 year treaty watch. No doubt there is something sinister going on there. It's just not the fulfillment of 9:27.

The Spirit of Prophecy is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, it' all about Him, His fulfillment of the Convent with the Many.

1.) How many years was the ministry of Jesus?
2.)After he was crucified and burred how many more years was he present to complete confirmation of his covenant?
3.)What happens to the Temple when He died?
4.)Did he put and end to Sacrifice?

Do not come back and say, "Well your saying that Jesus is the abomination or the desolation"... No I'm not. That is not what the passage says, take a closer look at it and figure it out. If your stuck in a particular view like I was you will never see it. Yes Daniel mentions Titus... as well as Jesus in Mat. 24..

Jesus fulfilled the covenant with the Many completely and fully, if there was a part of the Covenant Jesus did not complete then we are left unforgiven with wrath to be suffered.This whole time gap theory never sat well with me. It was all fulfilled on the Cross.

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby watching on Mon May 24, 2010 12:06 pm

Hi Wickus,

If the Jews, do, by chance, perform a sacrifice in the next few weeks, then what type of sacrifice will it be, and why?

a) sacrifices of righteousness

b) sacrifices of strife

c) sacrifices to dead things

d) the covenant sacrifice

e) the passover

f) annual sacrifice

g) thank offering

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2077&t=KJV


Because, obviously, none of the above refer to a "daily" burnt offering. (At least, I don't see that description included in the list.)

So, if, for the sake of argument, Daniel 9:27 is referring to the Anti-Christ (as is being purported by others, not me. Just to be clear.), then who are Daniel 8:11,12,13, Daniel 11:31, and Daniel 12:11 referring to?

Because they (Dan 8:11,12,13, Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11) all refer to a "daily" or "continual" of some sort.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8548&t=KJV&page=4
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby eschologizer on Mon May 24, 2010 12:10 pm

Watching,

Sorry for the mistake, I thought the midpoint was sooner than that.


No apology necessary. It all depends on how it is reconciled with the Gregorian (our calendar) with 365 days in it. June 14 is 1260 days into the ENPI. 1230 days into it is May 15, 2010. July 1 is the exact midpoint on a Gregorian calendar. At about July 20-21, there gets to be less than 1260 days left in the ENPI and at that point the ENPI theory becomes untenable. But I am of the persuasion that prophecy will most likely be fulfilled this summer. But time will tell.

Peace,

Eschologizer
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby watching on Mon May 24, 2010 12:12 pm

Hi David,

What is Wickus on to?

Btw, just for the record, I do not have any problem with a time gap, only with the placement of it.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby david on Mon May 24, 2010 1:14 pm

watching wrote:Hi David,

What is Wickus on to?

Btw, just for the record, I do not have any problem with a time gap, only with the placement of it.



Wickus said: "It is a fact that Jesus was the final blood sacrifice offered. It is a fact that the prayers and service to God as His children is a sacrifice on to Him."


This quote taken to it's fullest holds the answer to everything.

Thank You for your question watching, I had to answer that for myself too!


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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Wickus on Mon May 24, 2010 1:27 pm

Hi David and Watching

Okay, let me try to make myself clearer.

As far as my theological knowledge goes, after the sacrifice Jesus as the Passover lamb and sacrifice for our sins, there is no need for any other sacrifice, EVER. The Jews may attempt a sacrifice of any kind, but by doing so they are doing it as a rejection of Jesus. So any sacrifice attempt is an abomination. Please take note that I am not bashing the Jews, just trying to set the facts straight regarding sacrifice. So for this I say it is an abomination to the Lord.

I also do not say that the Jews may not attempt a sacrifice of some sort that leads to the stopping and the AoD. I am just trying to work out how it might happen if we do see an AoD, but there has not been a sacrifice attempt. You see, if the ENP is it, we may have to look further than traditional explanations of how the AC will stop the sacrifice and usher in the AoD. The ENP in itself is not a traditional 7 year covenant. For all that we know there may be a secret law passed in Israel on recommendation of JS to not allow sacrifice on the Temple Mount as to not upset the Muslims. It may be something that does not even make the news, but slips under the radar

Yes, I do see Dan 9:27 referring to the AC stopping sacrifice. But as stated in my previous post by setting up the AoD and with the armies surrounded Jerusalem the AC will stop any ATTEMPT of starting or doing any daily or whatever sacrifice that the Jews might have in mind. That is why I wonder if the AC must stop a physical sacrifice as is traditionally believed or will he just by scattering the Jews during the AoD stop any attempt that sacrifice would be made.

We must keep in mind that there was no sacrifice made after 70AD until today (that I know of). Israel is in the land for 62 years, and still there is no sign of any preparations for sacrifice. So I believe David this is where you come in. Sacrifice as been stopped officially 2000 years ago. Do we need another stoppage?

Also, please keep in mind that this is only thoughts. The Lord may shine His light on me in a weeks time and then I may see this in a different way. This is very interesting times we are living in, so attempts to understand the Word of prophecy can sometimes leads to different views. I am just studying this as it does not look like any temple will be built soon. I am trying to fill a hole in the ENP theory.

I hope this makes sense… :wink:
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby david on Mon May 24, 2010 4:43 pm

Wickus wrote:Hi David and Watching

Okay, let me try to make myself clearer.

As far as my theological knowledge goes.............

I hope this makes sense… :wink:


Wickus, see one of my earlier posts (two I think) to see where I am coming from. That should answer your question, if not get back to me. My view has just changed and I am in the middle of that change. It's major change in perspective for me. The way I see it now simplifies & fits structurally with the whole passage (9:25-9:27), yet leaves a a few other questions. Questions I have mainly due to my previous belief and how to fill those holes. Maybe they don't need filling at all.

You are right the Jews do not need to sacrifice to atone for anything and a sacrifice would be an insult to Christ's sacrifice. Maybe a sacrifice could be a coming abomination. Yes we could still see a type of abomination or false Christ figure on the mount, sure. We still have the little horn of Daniel and the healed-wounded head of Revelation.

Remember "he will strike at his heal, and He (Messiah) will crush his head." Answer for yourself where and when that took place tells how the serpents head was "wounded", really ponder that for awhile. And the world will marvel after the beast whose deadly wound had been healed, the one that once was now is not and yet will be.

For me this is a very recent (like yesterday) revelation that shifted my thinking. I don't expect people to agree or understand, and that's okay.

With Love in Christ

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby 1whowaits on Mon May 24, 2010 8:22 pm

watching, great point about the sacrifice being noted as the continual or daily sacrifice in Dan 8, 11 and 12 vs the sacrifice in Dan 9 which could be a reference to an annual sacrifice such as Passover, i had not noted that before. It has been theorized that as the AC 'appears' to receive a fatal headwound from which he 'appears' to recover, that this event could occur around the time of Passover so that the AC could mimic the resurrection. After his apparent recovery from the fatal wound the AC could go on to put a stop to the Passover sacrifice and proclaim himself god in the temple, after all he would have just been resurrected from the dead (an apparent deception of Satan).

Supporting this could be the endpoints suggested in scripture. As Jesus fulfilled the first 4 appointed feasts at His first coming, He will likely fulfill the last 3 appointed feasts at His second coming. The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet describe events or rituals that would only occur on the Day of Atonement, possibly pointing to armageddon occurring on the Day of Atonement. On any given year, 1,260 days prior to the fall feasts, which include the Day of Atonement, would fall around the time of Passover.

So the midpoint of the week that Dan 9 refers to could actually be during the week of Passover and the sacrifice that the AC stops is the Passover sacrifice, an annual sacrifice which occurs at a specific time rather than the daily sacrifice that occurs all the time, the stopping of which could occur at any time. The use of the term 'sacrifice' in Dan 9 (vs 'continual') could point to the exact week that the midpoint occurs, the Passover week, which then would be consistent with 1,260 days, 42 monts, 3.5 years following that time ending at the fall feasts.

After stopping the Passover sacrifice it would follow that the AC would put an end to all sacrifices and offerings, including the continual or daily sacrifice, as part of his assertion that he is god. This would then fulfill the other passages of Daniel that refer to the daily sacrifice.

The use of the term for an annual sacrifice in Dan 9 vs the use of the daily sacrifice noted in the other passages of Daniel would make sense, if one were identifying the approximate time that the initial stopping of the sacrifice would take place. If one knew the approximate endpoint of the 1,260 days, the fall appointed feasts, then one could know the approximate starting point, Passover, and Dan 9 might just be confirming that starting point.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby 1whowaits on Mon May 24, 2010 8:39 pm

As far as sacrifices in Israel, there have been sparodic sacrifices performed over the years, there was one recently i believe, but there has not been a continual or daily sacrifice as Daniel describes. As Jesus' death and resurrection made the sin offering null and void, the sin offering has been done away with, but not all offerings were sin offerings. There were also fellowship offerings and offerings of worship which did not involve atonement or forgiveness of sins, and we have no evidence from scripture that these types of offerings would be prohibited by God.

In fact Zech 14 refers to all nations going up to Jerusalem to worship Jesus during the Feast of Tabernacles and reference is made to sacrifices at the end of the chapter, it appears that at least some sacrifices occur during the millenium. Also Isa 2 indicates that there will be a temple during the millenium and Zech 6 appears to suggest that Jesus, the Branch, will help rebuild that temple.

So any attempt to rebuild the temple by the Jewish people may not be opposed by God, God appears to condone a temple during the millenium, so one prior to the millenium might be His desire. And although there can be no forgiveness of sins through the sin offerings, God may not oppose the Jewish people restarting at least some of the sacrificial system such as the fellowship offering, as God appears to condone at least some type of offering during the millenium.

So when Rev, Matt 24, Dan and 2 Thess 2 describe a temple of God/sanctuary/ holy place it will likely be a literal temple, and Rev 11 does appear to describe a literal temple with an altar and worshippers present, all the elements are there. And when Dan uses the terms of 'continual' (sacrifice), consistent with daily sacrifice, and 'sacrifice' (annual as watching has noted) in Dan 9, it is likely that literal sacrifices and offerings are being referred to.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby sands on Mon May 24, 2010 11:58 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:In closing, I just can't shake all of the overwhelming evidence, the roadsigns, and the overall timing of the entire World's situation to say at this point - that just because it appears as if we are running out of time; that this theory is wrong. It's really hard to believe that we just may be living in the last 7 years, but then again I am reminded of how Scripture portrays how the days will be, right before the Return of Christ. We are told to Watch for a reason.



What you've said is so similar to the thoughts in my mind about these things..Even though we are rapidly approaching the middle of the ENPI which is the policy that appears to us to look like what prophesied in Daniel 9:27 and there's no temple or sacrifices and such going on to be stopped that we know of, Yet which according to scripture will be stopped in the midst of the 7 makes many of us that have been following this closely in the last few years question if the ENPI was the fulfillment of that prophecy...Each day we get closer to the middle it looks less likely from our point of view in this period of time...Yet, from my knowledge I know of no scripture that tells us when the sacrifices and oblation begins and since there is still time left till the middle I am reminded that things can happen very quickly ...So despite that we are very near the point in which they would have to be stopped we still cannot rule the ENPI out on the matter of the stopping of the sacrifice and oblation and AOD...Now, approaching the middle and no sacrifices and oblation yet which raises questions in our minds, there are ALL THESE OTHER SIGNS happening during this 7 year time frame that look exactly like the other things that Jesus forewarned us of....The wars and rumors of wars with North Korea vs South Korea being latest one in a very big list of conflicts and rumors of wars going on in the world, the massive earthquakes (Haiti, China, Chile) and the odd a few that happened in my area (DFW) which to my and my grandmothers knowledge has never in her 94 years experienced an earthquake , the distress of nations with all the riots with people angry with their governments (Greece riots, Thailand, massive immigration protests in the U.S.), talks of worldwide economic collapses and the collapse of the currencies of several major nations...All of these things occurring in very close proximity to one another during the time frame of the ENPI makes me doubt my doubts of the ENPI being it...

But I remember what Jesus said when he gave us all the details of what would happen He said.

Matthew: "32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors."

All these things is everything He said would happen before His return and one of those things is the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel the prophet...So we all keep watching.

So as far as there being any holes in the ENPI theory I cannot find any, but I do find that what is often suggested to be holes in the ENPI theory remain as assumptions AT THIS POINT IN TIME..Those assumptions being that there is no temple yet, sacrifices, the two witnesses.....To the best of my knowledge there is no scriptural support for when the temple goes up, when the sacrifice and oblation will start, or knowledge of who the two witnesses will be before they begin to prophesy...Now if they don't happen once we get to that point in time in which these would have to happen for the ENPI to be it then we will know if it was or wasn't...But we must keep watching....
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Exit40 on Tue May 25, 2010 9:52 am

Great discussion. So I presume then, gog/magog happens in the second half of the last week ?

God Bless

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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Douggg on Wed May 26, 2010 1:38 am

Mr Baldy wrote:Well, well, well.......now Dougggy :mrgreen: - lets do take a look at Exodus 7:10-12:

10) So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the LORD had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent.

11) Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts.

12) For each one threw down his staff and they turned into serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.

Now, a careful reading of this particular passage of Scripture will clearly show you that the "magicians" "did the same with their secret arts." This action performed by the magicians was counterfeit, and cunning - work done by the power of Satan in an effort to deceive those who were watching; hence you have Scripture stating that it was performed by "secret arts". The work done by Aaron throwing the staff down was performed by God.

So Dougggy, now let me ask you.....do you read your bible? :mrgreen:


Mr. Baldy, the issue was not if Pharoah's majicians staffs turning into snakes were performed by God. But whether some human had power to give life to an inanimat'e object - such as what will happen with the image of the Antichrist. That's what you asked me, if I thought the image of the first beast in Revelation 13 would literally come to life.

The "secret arts' of the majicians were not that of an Las Vegas illusionist's, but occultist Satanic practices. In Daniel 8:23 the AC will be deep into understanding "dark sentences".

There were other duplications of the plagues put on Egypt by pharoahs' majicians as well. When they got to the lice plague, the pharoah's majicians did not have the power to match that plague and that was the end of their
duplicating the plagues.

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 26, 2010 2:52 am

Douggg wrote:The "secret arts' of the majicians were not that of an Las Vegas illusionist's, but occultist Satanic practices.


Douggg, I beg to differ. Any form of an illusionary act is a form of deception, and the very act, and/or practice of deceit in itself is straight from the pits of hell. It's ALL a lie, derived from the father of lies.

You may try to mix words as "occultist Satanic practices" in comparison to "secret arts" or an "illusion"; but at the end of the day they are all one and the same - and all derived from the Master of lies, trickery, and deception - Satan himself.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Douggg on Wed May 26, 2010 9:14 am

Mr Baldy wrote:
Douggg wrote:The "secret arts' of the majicians were not that of an Las Vegas illusionist's, but occultist Satanic practices.


Douggg, I beg to differ. Any form of an illusionary act is a form of deception, and the very act, and/or practice of deceit in itself is straight from the pits of hell. It's ALL a lie, derived from the father of lies.

You may try to mix words as "occultist Satanic practices" in comparison to "secret arts" or an "illusion"; but at the end of the day they are all one and the same - and all derived from the Master of lies, trickery, and deception - Satan himself.


Mr. Baldy, you are making me pull hen's teeth... :a2: Were they living snakes or rubber snakes?

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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Wed May 26, 2010 10:19 am

Douggg wrote:Mr. Baldy, you are making me pull hen's teeth... Were they living snakes or rubber snakes?


Douggg, perhaps this is a question that you should be asking yourself.

One must truly be able to discern matters as they relate to deception, and lies - less they become a victim of it themselves.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Wickus on Wed May 26, 2010 11:14 am

:lol: You guys are giving me a good chuckle. :mrgreen:
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby 1whowaits on Wed May 26, 2010 8:14 pm

Doug, i would agree with your point, the sorcerers in Egypt did make something living out of an what appeared to be an inanimate object, a staff, and the scripture does describe living snakes that are then eaten by Moses serpent. It would appear that Satan does have the power to animate inanimate objects, or what appears to be inanimate objects.

And Rev 14 does appear to describe a similar event, the FP orders men to set up an image, translated as a statue or representation, of the beast to honor the beast. This image or reprensentation then receives a 'breath' or 'spirit' which then causes the image/representation to speak and then kill those who do not worship the image/representation.

There are many theories as to what this means, but it does appear that something that appears inanimate (unless men make something that is living tissue) that men set up to honor the beast is given a 'spirit', and this representation of the AC then speaks and kills, this is not a TV image. And it does appear that the FP does have the power to give out a 'spirit', the FP (along with the AC and Satan) sends out evil spirits in Rev 16, and they are demons- 'They are spirits of demons perfroming miraculous signs..'

So it is possible for the FP to give out a 'spirit' to something, an evil spirit or demon. From scripture it is not clear that demons can animate inanimate objects, perhaps they can, we just don't know. But from scripture it does appear that demons desire or need to posses living bodies, in the encounter with Jesus in Luke 8 'legion' requested not to be sent to the abyss but into a herd of (living) pigs.

Based on the little we know from scripture, the FP can 'breathe' a demon, and demons desire to posses living tissue, a body of sorts, even a non human body. Combine these factors with an 'image' or representation of the beast being made by men, and i would SPECULATE that this could be a reference to cloning.

A clone would be an image or representation of the beast, it would not be the beast himself. The ability to clone does exist, men could do such a thing, but it would take years for the clone to develop. But if genes of some fast growing organisims were 'spliced' into the clone, or if Satan possess the knowledge to increase growth rate rapidly, a full size clone could be made within a relatively short period of time.

Such a clone which grew at a rapid rate, would likely not have an intellect and may not have a 'spirit'. Such a body would then be an ideal vehicle for demon possession, no mind or spirit to oppose the demon, basically the equivalent of an animal, or a herd of pigs that would not jump off a cliff. Such a body, when possessed by a demon, would be able to speak and kill those who did not worship it, demon possessed individuals are known for their violence.

If a number of these bodies were made, an army of demons in the physical world would be under the control of the AC and Satan, and at the 5th trumpet the Abyss is opened and it does appear that demons are released who torture men, there will be many demons looking for bodies to posses.

The making of 'mindless' bodies that are genetically similar to a 'controller' who acts as the mind of the body and posseses the body has already be theorized in the movie 'Avatar', and 'avatar' would be an appropriate term for the image of the beast. How is that for 'sensationalism'?
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Exit40 on Thu May 27, 2010 12:51 pm

No comments about gog/magog ? I thought that had to happen in order for the WEU to become the dominant force in the ME leading to Armageddon. Forgive my ignorance, and please enlighten me.

God Bless

David
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And Grace, my fears relieved.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun May 30, 2010 5:08 pm

Exit40 wrote:So I presume then, gog/magog happens in the second half of the last week ?


Exit40 wrote:No comments about gog/magog ? I thought that had to happen in order for the WEU to become the dominant force in the ME leading to Armageddon. Forgive my ignorance, and please enlighten me.


Hi David,

I don't know if the gog/magog war will be necessary for the WEU to become the "dominant force" in the ME leading to Armageddon; however, something - perhaps a major "crisis" will cause them to rise to the occasion; in that they will have the authority as kings, and rule with the Antichrist for one hour.

Nevertheless, there is no doubt, (at least in my mind), that the Gog/Magog war happens in the final 3.5 years or "second half of the last week". There are a lot of similarities of the Gog/Magog war, and the war of Armageddon - it may even be the same war.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby 1whowaits on Sun May 30, 2010 10:27 pm

There are differing opinions on the timing of the Gog-Magog event. While there are similarities between Gog and armageddon, there are significant differences between the 2 including Gog being killed and buried in a mass grave while the AC is captured and cast alive into the lake of fire, etc. So the differences would suggest that Gog-magog and armageddon are 2 different events, and the timing could then be determined by the details noted in Ezek 38-39.

Prior to Gog Israel dwells in security in the land and does not know God. After Gog Israel returns to the land and does know that God is the Lord.

As Israel does know God and is in the land during the millenium, Ezek 38 and 39 do not fit the time of the millenium. Again Gog does not appear to occur at the end of the week because of the significant differences between Gog-magog and armageddon.

Prior to the end of the 70th week and armageddon, during the entire 3.5 years of the latter half of the 70th week, Israel is not in the land but is taken from the land and protected in the wilderness by God. As Israel is not in the land but protected by God in the wilderness presumably outside of Israel, she would likely know that God is God as He is providing for her. And Israel cannot return to her land during the latter half of the 70th week as Satan is pursuing Israel to kill her during that time, not the peaceful conditions described after Gog-magog. So Gog-Magog occurring during the latter half of the 70th week would appear unlikely as Israel is not in the land during that entire time, has some knowledge of God, and cannot be regathered to the land as Satan is still pursuing her.

So that would then by exclusion leave the time prior to the AOD and the midpoint as being the time period Israel would be attacked by Gog. As Ezek 39 desribes a 7 year period of weapons burning as following the Gog event, the most likely time of Gog would be at the beginning or just prior to the 70th week.

The Gog event could wipe out the muslim forces and perhaps those of the US or Russia, it could throw the world into chaos, which then could pave the way for the rise of the AC to prominence at the midpoint of the week.
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Re: ENP(I) Theory Holes

Postby plalgum on Mon May 31, 2010 5:59 am

Agreed.
Also dont forget the marking of the the bones which suggests nuclear contamination!
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