Daniel 9;27

(heavily moderated)

Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:44 pm

January 1st 2007 is not the fulfillment of Daniel 9;27
Daniels 70th week has not yet begun.
The pre-trib rapture has not yet occurred, therefore the last week of Daniel is yet future.
Wanna open a can of worms :bored:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby Cantaress4Him on Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:05 pm

:grin: Oh boy! Here we go again ...

And FTR, I'm with you, Benny. :wink:
Cantaress4Him

2 Chronicles 20:21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever.
User avatar
Cantaress4Him
 
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:14 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby mrgravyard49 on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:12 pm

LOL yea it has gotten to quiet..
But yes since we are NOT in the 70th yet, what is the plan for the enp folks? I figure they will just wait and see.
Better have a backup plan.. :wink:
mrgravyard49
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:51 pm
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:46 pm

I think that plan is already being devised :lol:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=54171
Italian PM Berlusconi, wants Israel to join the European Union.
According to media sourses,..Israel's citizens desires to join the E.U.
Here's the picture:
The pre-trib rapture occurs first, during a period of peace and normal life, then Ezekial 38 occurs.
It is Ezekial 38;20 which is revealing that every mountain and wall shall fall to the Ground on a global scale.
When you combine the pre-trib rapture and Ezekial 38;20,..it would result in "TOTAL" economic collapse.
This without a doubt would cause all mankind on this earth to unite together for survival reasons.
And Israel would not resist in joining the E.U.
Considering that Israel would be under the E.U's umbrella,..Times and law's would be changed as is prophesied that the ac would do.
Berlusconi, is basicly courting Israel at this moment,...and has an eye on Israel's newly discovered resources(Natural gas)
It is prophecied that the ac would cause craft to prosper.(Pipeline from Israel to the E.U. Ect.)
Nato and the W.E.U. joining their armies together could guarantee Israel's security.
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:42 pm

benny balerio wrote:Wanna open a can of worms


You asked for it. :lol:

benny balerio wrote:Daniels 70th week has not yet begun.


Oh really?

Let's start by looking at Daniel 9:27 in context, except, if you don't mind, I will highlight a few words .

Daniel 9:24-27 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Now, let me ask anyone who is willing to answer this question truthfully, if you were reading this passage for the very first time, and had not been previously preconditioned to believe otherwise prior to reading it, where would your common sense tell you to place the beginning of the 70th week? Actually, let me put it this way. What comes after 69 (7 + 62) ?

And, who would your common sense tell you the "he" in Daniel 9:27 is referring to?

I'm just asking the question. :dunno:
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby ampersand on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:06 pm

If I was reading the text without any preconditioned human understanding, I would think exactly what it says:

  1. That there are 69 weeks UNTIL the Messiah comes on the scene.
  2. That AFTER the 69th week, the Prince would be cut off. This would have to occur during the 70th week.
  3. That the "he" is referring to the immediately preceding "prince" - or the Messiah.

&
ampersand
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:16 pm

Let,s cut through all the red tape cause I have been down this road several times .

I'll ask you a question.
Has Israel(Daniels people) stopped sinning and has all of Israel recognized Jesus as their Lord and savior? :grin:
Also,...it is obvious that you are going to claim that the "he" would be identified as the lord Jesus.
Explain to this forum what the 7 year covenant is that is to be reneged on?

The pronoun "he"at the beginning of the verse refers to the anti-christ, because the nearest antecedent is
clearly a reference to "the people of the prince who is come to destroy the city and the sanctuary"

Now here's the crazy part.
This topic is stating that Daniel 9;27 has not begun yet,..and you are trying to claim that it has AND!...claim that the Lord has already made 7 year covenant with Israel (a covenant of what?)
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:21 pm

Now if you guys want a great explanation of Daniels 70 weeks then read the following:

Daniel’s Vision of Our Times, the Antichrist and Israel

http://raptureready.com/soap/livoti1.html
By Sandy Livoti


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



As a child, I used to sprawl out on the bed at night with my King James Bible and read about strange visions and the wonders of heaven before dropping off to sleep, mystified. Daniel, Revelation and other curious books of the Bible weren’t discussed much in my Christian Science Sunday school class, so in the privacy of my room I would ponder the intriguing pages that had been missed.

But what on earth did all those numbers mean in Daniel 9:24-27? I saw numeric associations in other parts of Daniel and Revelation, but still couldn’t decipher the passages. I figured the weeks were years, but when doing the math, the months were a couple days short. Were the days in a month rounded off, or were the number of days supposed to equal an average month? Neither solution seemed right.

And what did those disturbing phrases about abominations and desolations mean? Would these things happen in my lifetime? More important to me at the time, since the events would take place in Israel, how could they possibly, personally affect me?

It took over 45 years of spiritual wandering before I returned to the questions and learned the answers. Along the way I also discovered that one phrase in a sentence of prophecy can be fulfilled at one time, while the next may not be fulfilled until many years later. The verses in Daniel 9:24-27, written in 536 B.C., are like that. God’s plan for the ages is laid out in entirely specific time periods. It is likely that, according to this schedule, we are now very near the end.

See for yourself …


SEVENTY WEEKS
490 years

The Hebrew word for “weeks” is actually “sevens.”

HAVE BEEN DECREED

Have been ordered by God

Decreed by the God of Israel, known by Jews and Christians as the eternal I AM. (Exodus 3:14)


FOR YOUR PEOPLE
For the people of Israel, the Jews



This is a literal ethnic group, not referring symbolically to the Christian church.

AND YOUR HOLY CITY,

And for Jerusalem

TO FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION,

To end the people’s sin of unbelief

To stop Israel’s skepticism, agnosticism, atheism and rejection of their Messiah.

TO MAKE AN END OF SIN,
To remove sins

Payment (atonement) through the Messiah will be credited (imputed) to Jewish believers by the end of the 70 weeks.

TO MAKE ATONEMENT FOR INIQUITY,
To pay for sin

Sin has costly consequences. The perfect sacrificial Lamb bore our sin and its punishment on the cross (Colossians 2:13-14). Payment for sin is already credited to all Jewish and Gentile believers in Jesus Christ. But for most of ethnic Israel, that application remains to be made in the future.

TO BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS,
To establish righteousness on earth

This refers to the Millennial kingdom, the 1,000-year reign of the Messiah and His saints on earth. (Revelation 20:6)

TO SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY
To conclude, complete and fulfill the whole prophetic vision

Two final prophets will prophesy during the Tribulation. (Revelation 11:3)

AND TO ANOINT THE MOST HOLY PLACE.
And to make holy the Millennial Temple for service during the Millennial age (Ezekiel 40-44)

SO YOU ARE TO KNOW AND DISCERN

So that you can understand and determine

THAT FROM THE ISSUING OF A DECREE
That from the time of the edict given by Persian King Artaxerxes on March 5, 444 B.C. to Nehemiah (Nehemiah 2:1-8)

TO RESTORE AND REBUILD JERUSALEM
To restore and rebuild the stone walls and bolted gates around the City of Jerusalem

Reconstruction of the walls and gates for the protection of the City is described in detail by Nehemiah. (Nehemiah 2-3)

UNTIL MESSIAH THE PRINCE
Until the coming of the Anointed One, the ruler of the future kingdom

The Hebrew word Messiah means “Anointed One,” the One endowed with the Spirit of the Lord to preach the gospel to the afflicted. (Isaiah 61:1)


THERE WILL BE SEVEN WEEKS
There will be 49 years


AND SIXTY-TWO WEEKS;
And an additional 434 years

IT WILL BE BUILT AGAIN,
The City of Jerusalem will be rebuilt

It took 49 years to fully complete the rebuilding of the City.

WITH PLAZA AND MOAT,
With a city courtyard and moat

Archaeological remains of the moat have been found on the Temple Mount Esplanade surrounding the Dome of the Rock, a Moslem shrine built in the City of Jerusalem more than a thousand years later (A.D. 687) over the site of the Second Temple of the Jews.

EVEN IN TIMES OF DISTRESS.
Despite opposition from its neighbors

The rebuilding was opposed by the Samaritans (mixed-blood Jews), Arabs and others. (Nehemiah 4)

THEN AFTER THE SIXTY-TWO WEEKS
Then, after 434 years

The triumphal entry of Jesus riding into the City of Jerusalem on a foal marks the end of the 49 years (7 weeks) plus the 434 years (62 weeks), fulfilling the 483 years—the time period of 69 weeks.

TWO PROPHESIED EVENTS FULFILLED

Two specific events are prophesied to occur after the end of the 69th week, but before the 70th week begins—the crucifixion of the Messiah and the destruction of the City of Jerusalem and the Second Temple.

THE MESSIAH WILL BE CUT OFF
The Anointed One will be violently killed

Jesus Christ was crucified in A.D. 33.

AND HAVE NOTHING,
And have no honor, lacking a kingdom

AND THE PEOPLE OF (the prince who is to come)
The Roman Empire

The people of the Roman Empire were any who came from areas of Europe, east through Turkey and Russia to the Caspian Sea, through Iran, Iraq and Syria, south to Saudi Arabia, east across Israel and Lebanon, to Egypt and North Africa.

THE PRINCE WHO IS TO COME
The end-time world ruler, called the “man of lawlessness” or “man of sin” (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

Satan will enter the person of the arrogant “man of lawlessness,” whose ethnicity could be from any of the above culture groups. This man, indwelt by Satan, is the Antichrist. (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

WILL DESTROY THE CITY
Will destroy Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-22)

The City of Jerusalem was demolished by Roman legions under the ruler Titus in A.D. 70.

AND THE SANCTUARY.
And the Second Temple

The Second Temple was burned and destroyed by Roman legions under Titus in A.D. 70.

Interestingly, the Second Temple (completed in 516 B.C.) had been in existence for 586 years before its destruction by Rome. The First Temple (Solomon’s Temple, completed in 960 B.C.) had been destroyed by the Babylonians in 586 B.C. Its destruction occurred 70 years before the completion of the Second Temple. In addition, the Hebrew month and day of the burning of the Second Temple are traditionally the same month and day that the First Temple was destroyed—Tisha B’av, or the 9th of Ab (our 10th of August).

AND ITS END WILL COME WITH A FLOOD;
And the destruction of the City and the Second Temple will be overwhelming and deadly (Luke 21:23)

Foretells the great carnage of the Jews by the Romans—thousands of dead piled in the Kidron Valley, thousands of unspeakable crucifixions and other atrocities described in the writings of historian Flavius Josephus, a Pharisee priest born in A.D. 37 or 38 (birth name “Joseph ben Matthias”), who lived in Jerusalem and was an eyewitness.

EVEN TO THE END THERE WILL BE WAR;

The War of A.D. 70 will by no means be the last anti-Jewish war

DESOLATIONS ARE DETERMINED.

Ritual worship of the God of Israel will cease, just as it has since the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70

The Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount, called Haram esh-Sharif (“The Noble Sanctuary”) by Moslems, prevents ceremonial worship of the God of Israel at the site of the destroyed First and Second Temples.

EVENTS YET TO BE FULFILLED

The remaining prophecies refer to the last 1 week, or 7-year period, of Gentile world-rule before the glorious return of Jesus Christ at His Second Coming.

AND HE
And “the prince who is to come”

The Antichrist—the spirit opposing God, embodied in the “man of lawlessness.”

WILL MAKE A FIRM COVENANT

The “man of lawlessness” will effect and (most likely) sign a peace plan that will permit the Jews to rebuild their Temple and start making sacrifices again according to Mosaic Law

WITH THE MANY

With the Jews, Palestinians and others living in the Middle East

FOR ONE WEEK,

Spanning a future period of 7 years

BUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK
But 3½ years into the 7-year covenant


HE WILL PUT A STOP TO SACRIFICE AND GRAIN OFFERING;
He will prohibit the Jews from performing sacrificial worship at the Third Temple, which will be occurring then in accordance with the laws of the Torah (2 Thessalonians 2:4)

To make sacrifices, a temple (or at least an altar) is necessary. The Temple Institute in Jerusalem is nearly finished preparing all articles needed for Judaic worship in a Third Temple, which Orthodox Jews are planning to build.

AND ON THE WING OF ABOMINATIONS
And for spreading out repugnant evil

This will be done from the site of the Third Temple.

WILL COME ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE,

Satan, who opposes God and the worship of God, will enter the “man of sin” (the dictator of the world)


The Hebrew ha Satan means “the adversary.” This Satanic event will happen 3½ years after the Tribulation starts. (Revelation 13)


EVEN UNTIL A COMPLETE DESTRUCTION,
The career of the Antichrist will last for the remaining 3½ years and will be brought to an end by the personal return of Jesus Christ at His Second Coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8)


ONE THAT IS DECREED,
God has decreed a complete destruction of the “man of sin”

IS POURED OUT ON THE ONE WHO MAKES DESOLATE.
The wrath of God will be fully expressed against the “man of sin” who opposes Christ (Revelation 19:20)

After this, Jesus Christ begins His 1,000-year reign. (Revelation 20:4)

WHERE YOU ARE IN THE TIMELINE

49 years (7 weeks) + 434 years (62 weeks) = 483 years (69 weeks)


God speaks only truth, He is punctual, and according to the verses, He has paused the prophetic time clock after the completion of the 69 weeks. The prophetic clock stopped after the Messiah made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem as servant King and will not begin ticking again until the 7-year peace plan is signed. The evidence is:

1. The triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem marks the end of the 69th week. This is the major event that stopped the time clock. Two specific events prophesied to occur after the 69th week is completed, but before the 70th week starts, are: (1) the crucifixion of the Messiah, and (2) the destruction of the City of Jerusalem and the Second Temple.

2. The City of Jerusalem and the Second Temple were both destroyed in A.D. 70. Since this event happened in the “gap” between the triumphal entry (the end of the 69th week) and the signing of the peace treaty (the beginning of the 70th week), that means the prophecy itself indicates there is a “gap” of at least 40 years between the 69th- and 70th-week time periods.

3. The destruction of Jerusalem is to consist of continual warring between the Jews and the world, with the spiritual wretchedness of Jews persisting until the 7-year covenant is made with Israel. This is still happening. Therefore, the 70th week of Daniel must still be in the future.

We, then, are living in the phase between the 69th and 70th weeks!

483 years (69 weeks) + 7 years (1 week) = 490 years (70 weeks)

The 70th week of Daniel is the Tribulation. This will be followed by the triumphal return of Christ, the imprisonment of Satan and the worldwide rule of Jesus as King for 1,000 years—the Millennium. (Revelation 20:2)

ADDING IT UP

It took 49 years to rebuild the walls around Jerusalem.

444 B.C. to 396 B.C. = 49 years (Nehemiah 2:5-8)

These 49 years prove that the “sevens” are Jewish lunar years consisting of 360 days, since seven “sevens” = 49 years.

It took 483 years, or 69 weeks, from the beginning of the rebuilding of Jerusalem’s walls

(March 5, 444 B.C.) to when the Messiah was presented to Jerusalem, riding in miraculously on an unbroken foal (March 30, A.D. 33, the first Palm Sunday).

444 B.C. to A.D. 33 = only 476 years


How can the Hebrew calendar record of 476 years reconcile with the biblical 483 years?

The Hebrew calendar has a 30-day lunar month, 360-day lunar year. The 476 recorded years do not include the extra 5+ days/year that the Hebrew 360-day calendar excludes. This calendar is missing the extra 5 days/year it takes for the earth to circle the sun and also the extra time for leap year days. To convert the Hebrew calendar years to actual years, we need to calculate the time span by days:


69 weeks x 7 (days in a week) x 360 (days in a lunar year) = 173,880 days

The objective is to prove that:

March 5, 444 B.C. to March 30, A.D. 33 = 173,880 days (69 weeks)

We have already calculated that:

The 360-day calendar record from 444 B.C. to A.D. 33 = 476 years

Now include the extra 5 days/year for the earth to circle the sun and extra time for leap year days:


476 years x 365.2421989 days = 173,855 days

And add 25 more days for the period March 5 to March 30:

173,855 days + 25 days = 173,880 days

Thus producing the time to the EXACT DAY that Jesus was presented in Jerusalem as Savior, as foretold in Daniel:

173,880 days = 69 weeks

Note: Others have dated the decree of Artaxerxes at 445 B.C., the completion of the rebuilding of Jerusalem at 395 B.C., and the triumphal entry of Christ on April 6, A.D. 32. All of these dates still allow for accomplishment of the 483 years. Regardless, Jesus knew the exact date on which the Messiah was to enter Jerusalem and fulfill the prophecy.

THE NEXT PHASE IS IMMINENT

69 weeks (483 years, fulfilled) + 1 week (7 years, Tribulation) = 70 weeks (490 years)

Immediately following the Tribulation is the Second Coming of the Messiah.

SIGNIFICANCE FOR YOU

Daniel’s vision sets out the plan of God in segments of time. Because the first events happened exactly on schedule, you can be certain that the last ones will as well. If you haven’t yet believed that Jesus is the foretold Messiah, why do you wait? Consider it TODAY. Throw political correctness into the lake! Jesus was not just a good man, as some think. At the First Coming of Jesus, Jews and other people groups knew from Hebrew Scripture that the time for the Messiah to arrive was near. Only Jesus knew the exact date that would satisfy the prophecy and He appeared precisely on time. Clearly, He was and is the Anointed One of God!

Other Bible verses advise that it is only by Christ’s rank and power that you can be saved from the same fate as the lawless one who is to come (Revelation 19:20). God is holy and just, and the penalty for committing crimes of sin against Him must be paid, not excused. Unless adequate payment is made, the punishment for sin is eternal separation from God—spiritual death (Romans 6:23). As payment for sin, Christ the perfect Lamb, killed on the altar of the cross, was a wholly acceptable and pleasing sacrifice to God. His precious blood covered the cost due for the crimes of sin of all people, for all time. His resurrection is the tremendous proof that He is the Messiah who can save you from your sins and death, if you would believe.

As Jesus once presented Himself as the servant King of Israel, humbly submit to be His subject, asking Him to forgive your sins and take the lead in your life. The case against sin cannot be dropped where there is unbelief. For this there is only one judgment—guilty. Despite your merits and good deeds, even one sin that’s not paid for prevents friendship with God. Believe in Christ and appeal to Him to rescue you from the death sentence you face. If you trust in Christ to be your proxy and Savior, He will declare you not guilty and give you the priceless gift of eternal life in Him.

May these plain truths help to reveal more of Christ to the unseen readers, one and all.

MEDIA INTERVIEW AT THE TIME

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Flavius Josephus, historian (A.D. 37 or 38 - ~A.D. 100)
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby ampersand on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:24 pm

Actually, Mr. Balerio:

  1. The topic of this thread is Daniel 9:27.
  2. No one has claimed that a 7yr covenant was made with Israel.
  3. Where is it stated (in the text) that Israel will stop sinning?
  4. Where is it stated (in the text) that all of Israel is supposed to recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior?
  5. Where is it stated (in the text) that there is a discontinuity between the 69th and 70th wks?
  6. Where is it stated (in the text) that a "week" is a 7 year period?
  7. Where is "the Antichrist" mentioned in the text?
  8. Do you actually have anything to say from your personal study of the Scriptures?
  9. You have posted in the debate forum.


&
Last edited by ampersand on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ampersand
 
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:43 pm

Daniel 9;27 has everything to do with the 70 weeks of Daniel :grin:
Now you quote:
5.Where is it stated (in the text) that there is a discontinuity between the 69th and 70th wks?
Are you claiming that the 70th week has already been fulfilled? :oops:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:54 pm

Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:Now if you guys want a great explanation of Daniels 70 weeks then read the following:


I'm not going to read the commentary, because I have read enough of them already, to tell you the truth, but I will answer your questions.

benny balerio wrote:Has Israel(Daniels people) stopped sinning and has all of Israel recognized Jesus as their Lord and savior?


First of all, let me point out that I never said that the 70th week is over. In any case, I think the following may answer your question.

Romans 11:25-27 (King James Version)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


benny balerio wrote:

benny balerio wrote:Also,...it is obvious that you are going to claim that the "he" would be identified as the lord Jesus.
Explain to this forum what the 7 year covenant is that is to be reneged on?


The text does not say "he" will renege the covenant with many, it says "he" will confirm the covenant with many for one seven (that is one of the 70 sevens) see verse 24 again:

Daniel 9:24 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


The Lord, Jesus Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, before He was "cutoff." There are apparently 3 1/2 years (represented by "a time, times, and half a time;" "42 months;" and "1,260 days") remaining before this prophecy is fulfilled.

benny balerio wrote:The pronoun "he"at the beginning of the verse refers to the anti-christ, because the nearest antecedent is
clearly a reference to "the people of the prince who is come to destroy the city and the sanctuary"


I took the liberty of highlighting an extra word that you added in to the text.

Anyway, according to the way you worded your question, if that were the case, wouldn't it have been referring to Titus? :dunno:
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:08 pm

Just thought i would jump in here, Jesus did not confirm or strengthen a covenant for 7 years with anyone, Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering as these did continue for years after His ascension, Jesus did not set up an abomination in the temple, and the 'end' that was decreed was not poured out on Jesus.

The covenant made by Jesus is an everlasting covenant and His covenant is described as such repeatedly in scripture. This by itself eliminates the 7 year confirming of the covenant as applying to Jesus in any way.

Jesus was cut off after the 69th week, but as the 70th week was not fulfilled by Jesus, or anyone else, it still has future fulfillment. And as what is described in vs 24 has not been fulfilled yet the 70th week still has future fulfillment. And it does appear that there is a discontinuity between weeks 69 and 70 as the 70th has not been fulfilled and Dan 9 :26 refers to the end coming like a flood and wars continuing to the end after the 69th week, suggesting that a future time beyond the 69th week (the end) was being referred to.

And a week does appear to be a 7 year period as the 69 weeks do appear to have been fulfilled over a 483 year period (based on the 360 day/yr calendar as calculated by some past scholar).

And as there is no evidence of a pre-70th week rapture described in scripture (pre-trib), the rapture cannot be used as a marker for determining the beginning of the 70th week.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:18 pm

You quote:
First of all, let me point out that I never said that the 70th week is over. In any case, I think the following may answer your question.


Romans 11:25-27 (King James Version)

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.



26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

My Reply:
I do not have a problem with your answer here for it is the truth. :grin:
As long as you understand the meaning of "Fulness of the Gentiles"

You quote:
The text does not say "he" will renege the covenant with many, it says "he" will confirm the covenant with many for one seven (that is one of the 70 sevens) see verse 24 again:

My Reply:
In the middle of the week the anti-christ breaks the covenant,..that is whay I meant by renege :grin:

You quote:

Daniel 9:24 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The Lord, Jesus Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, before He was "cutoff." There are apparently 3 1/2 years (represented by "a time, times, and half a time;" "42 months;" and "1,260 days") remaining before this prophecy is fulfilled.

My Reply:

Revelation 13;5 states that the beast was given authority to "continue" for 42 months.
I will give you a gold nugget:
The Lord decreed 490 years to Daniels people to:

1) Finish their rebellion against God (accept Christ as the Messiah)

2) Put an end to their sin (make a conscious decision to stop sinning)

3) Atone for their guilt (accept the blood of Christ as payment for sin)

4) Bring in everlasting righteousness (witness the establishment of Christ’s Millennial Kingdom)

5) Confirm the prophetic vision (witness the fulfillment of all Messianic prophecies)

6) Anoint the most Holy place (witness the anointing of the Temple by means of the physical presence of the glorified Messiah, Jesus Christ)


Notice that the Lord has given Daniels people 490 years to:
1) Finish their rebellion against God (accept Christ as the Messiah)

2) Put an end to their sin (make a conscious decision to stop sinning)

3) Atone for their guilt (accept the blood of Christ as payment for sin)

And that All of Israel will be saved just before the Lord returns(Romans 11;26 and Matthew 23;39)
Israel (The Jewish race) has sinned, and during the entire 490 years that was decreed,The Lord has forgiven them 7x 70=490 years
Matthew 18;21
Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18;22
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

The Bride is to forgive their enemies and pray for them, and no limited number of times is decreed or given to the Bride to forgive.
Again,..the Bride has no purpose for entering Daniels 70th week,....it is the time of Jacobs Trouble.

It seems that you are trying to condense the seven seals, trumpets,and bowl judgements and the physical second coming of our Lord into 3 1/2 years...you should rethink that one. :grin:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:20 pm

Hi benny belario and 1whowaits,

I'm trying to make dinner right now, so it might be a while before I can respond to your posts.

Just letting you know, I'm still here.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:26 pm

1whowaits wrote:Just thought i would jump in here, Jesus did not confirm or strengthen a covenant for 7 years with anyone, Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering as these did continue for years after His ascension, Jesus did not set up an abomination in the temple, and the 'end' that was decreed was not poured out on Jesus.

The covenant made by Jesus is an everlasting covenant and His covenant is described as such repeatedly in scripture. This by itself eliminates the 7 year confirming of the covenant as applying to Jesus in any way.

Jesus was cut off after the 69th week, but as the 70th week was not fulfilled by Jesus, or anyone else, it still has future fulfillment. And as what is described in vs 24 has not been fulfilled yet the 70th week still has future fulfillment. And it does appear that there is a discontinuity between weeks 69 and 70 as the 70th has not been fulfilled and Dan 9 :26 refers to the end coming like a flood and wars continuing to the end after the 69th week, suggesting that a future time beyond the 69th week (the end) was being referred to.

And a week does appear to be a 7 year period as the 69 weeks do appear to have been fulfilled over a 483 year period (based on the 360 day/yr calendar as calculated by some past scholar).

And as there is no evidence of a pre-70th week rapture described in scripture (pre-trib), the rapture cannot be used as a marker for determining the beginning of the 70th week.

Not sure how to use this quote markers ,...but you quote:

And as there is no evidence of a pre-70th week rapture described in scripture (pre-trib), the rapture cannot be used as a marker for determining the beginning of the 70th week

My Reply:
Actually there are several ways that it can be proven that pre-trib comes before Daniels 70th week. :grin:
Now as for commenting on the rest of your post,...You are dead on target! :a3:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:28 pm

watching wrote:Hi benny belario and 1whowaits,

I'm trying to make dinner right now, so it might be a while before I can respond to your posts.

Just letting you know, I'm still here.

So what are we having for supper? :bowing:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:24 pm

BB, before your statement at the beginning of the thread would be valid, you must first prove that the rapture occurs at the beginning of the 70th week.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:29 pm

Hi Benny,

I'm back, for the time being.

benny balerio wrote:So what are we having for supper? :bowing:


Well, if you must know, I was making pastichio (let's just call it a meat and macaroni casserole with bechamel sauce). It's in the oven now.

Anyway, I'm going to have to take these posts one at a time, so I'm going to answer 1whowaits' post first.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:41 pm

Actually, my computer is acting up again. I'm going to have to power it off and turn it back on later.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:46 pm

1whowaits wrote:BB, before your statement at the beginning of the thread would be valid, you must first prove that the rapture occurs at the beginning of the 70th week.

:grin: I never said at the beginning per see :grin:
I said "before".....It is a fact that we are "caught up" before the Day of the Lord begins.
I claim that Ezekial 38;18-20 is the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which matches perfectly with revelation 6;14-17 and Isaiah 2;19.........Since it is that you have tried unsuccessfully to refute Isaiah 2;5-22 as not matching Ezekial 38;18-20 and revelation 6;14-17....from another post of mine,..I am posting the scriptures. I have learned to always verify to see if ones statement is correct because there are many who will twist the scriptures to get it to lean in their misinterpreted view :grin:

The Day of the LORD
5 O house of Jacob, come and let us walk
In the light of the LORD.
6 For You have forsaken Your people, the house of Jacob,
Because they are filled with eastern ways;
They are soothsayers like the Philistines,
And they are pleased with the children of foreigners.
7 Their land is also full of silver and gold,
And there is no end to their treasures;
Their land is also full of horses,
And there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is also full of idols;
They worship the work of their own hands,
That which their own fingers have made.
9 People bow down,
And each man humbles himself;
Therefore do not forgive them.
10 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the LORD
And the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts
Shall come upon everything proud and lofty,
Upon everything lifted up—
And it shall be brought low—
13 Upon all the cedars of Lebanon that are high and lifted up,
And upon all the oaks of Bashan;
14 Upon all the high mountains,
And upon all the hills that are lifted up;
15 Upon every high tower,
And upon every fortified wall;
16 Upon all the ships of Tarshish,
And upon all the beautiful sloops.
17 The loftiness of man shall be bowed down,
And the haughtiness of men shall be brought low;
The LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
18 But the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 They shall go into the holes of the rocks,
And into the caves of the earth,
From the terror of the LORD
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver
And his idols of gold,
Which they made, each for himself to worship,
To the moles and bats,
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks,
And into the crags of the rugged rocks,
From the terror of the LORD
And the glory of His majesty,
When He arises to shake the earth mightily.
22 Sever yourselves from such a man,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he?
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:18 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

1whowaits wrote:Jesus did not confirm or strengthen a covenant for 7 years with anyone,


The text does not say anything about a seven year covenant. It says:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (As I said before, this is referring to one of the 70 sevens. See Daniel 9:24)

1whowaits wrote:Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering as these did continue for years after His ascension


The text does not say anything about putting an end to sacrifices and offerings. It says:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,


Hebrews 10:1-12 (King James Version)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;[b]




1whowaits wrote:Jesus did not set up an abomination in the temple


The text does not say anything about setting up an abomination in the temple. It says:

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate,

Matthew 23:37-39 (King James Version)

37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the
Lord.




1whowaits wrote:and the 'end' that was decreed was not poured out on Jesus.


The text does not say that the 'end' that was decreed was poured out on Jesus. The text says:

even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Revelation 19:11-21 (King James Version)

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


1whowaits wrote:Jesus was cut off after the 69th week, but as the 70th week was not fulfilled by Jesus, or anyone else, it still has future fulfillment.


I'm glad you concede that the text says, "after."

But let me get this straight, are you saying that the the atoning death of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the 70 weeks prophecy. That it occurred some time between the 69th week and the 70th week, but was irrelevant? :shock:

And now it is up to the antichrist to fulfill the seventieth week? :humm:



Allow me, if I may, to refresh your memory as to what the seventy weeks prophecy says:

Daniel 9:24 (King James Version)

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.


What part of that is the antichrist supposed to fulfill? :dunno:
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:38 pm

Watching, Jesus did not confirm a covenant with anyone for 1 seven, this alone eliminates Jesus from being the one who confirms the covenant. Where does scripture ever mention Jesus confirming or strengthening a covenant for 1 seven? Jesus is the New Covenant, the everlasting covenant, He does not do this for 1 seven, and certainly not for 2 separate 3.5 year periods.

And again Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering, nor did He cause them to cease, they did continue after the resurrection. And according to Zech 14 sacrifice and offering will occur during the millenium. Sacrifice and offering are no longer an atonement for sin, which is what Heb 10 is referring to, but they were not at an end in 33 AD and they will again occur during the millenial reign. Heb 10 does indicate that offerings for sin are no longer necessary, but not all sacrifices and offerings are for the atonement of sin as the OT clearly describes.

While Dan 9 does not specifically describe the AOD, it does allude to it, and the AOD is described repeatedly in other scripture (Dan 7, 11, 12, Matt 24, 2 Thess). Dan 9 is not interpreted in a vacuum, which you are attempting to do, it agrees with the rest of scripture which does describe the AC stopping the offering and setting up the AOD. And scripture also describes the AC being destroyed at armageddon, which Dan 9 would agree with.

I did not state that Jesus was irrelevant to the 70 weeks, Jesus fulfills the goals laid out for Israel in Dan 9:24 so He does have a role in the 70 weeks, but it is the AC who confirms a covenant for 1 seven, sets up an AOD in the temple, who puts an end to sacrifice and offering, upon who the end that is decreed is poured out. Placing Jesus in that role does not agree with the rest of scripture which does describe someone else who does cause the cessation of the sacrifice and offering, the desolation of the temple, and is the desolator who comes to his end. Jesus does not fit the description of 'he' in 9:27 but the AC does as noted elsewhere in scripture.

Until you come up with a passage of scripture that states that Jesus confirms a covenant for 1 seven, there is no basis for the view that Dan 9 : 27 is referring to Jesus.
Last edited by 1whowaits on Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:51 pm

BB, Ezek 38 does not match Rev or Isa 2, you cannot take 1 small section of Ezek 38 out of the context of the entire chapter. Ezek 38 describes Gog-Magog and the section you refer to mentions Gog, it is clearly part of the Gog-Magog battle. In Ezek 39 Gog is killed and buried while in Rev the AC is cast alive into the Lake of Fire, 2 different events are described. Until you can resolve the differences between Ezek 38, 39 and Rev (and Zech 14, Joel 3) your argument that the same event is being described makes no sense.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:49 am

Hi 1whowaits,

1whowaits wrote:Watching, Jesus did not confirm a covenant with anyone for 1 seven, this alone eliminates Jesus from being the one who confirms the covenant. Where does scripture ever mention Jesus confirming or strengthening a covenant for 1 seven? Jesus is the New Covenant, the everlasting covenant, He does not do this for 1 seven, and certainly not for 2 separate 3.5 year periods.


Let me repeat, the 1 seven is referring to one of the 70 sevens. The text does not say "he" will confirm a covenant that lasts for a duration of seven years, it says:

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

1whowaits wrote:And again Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering, nor did He cause them to cease,


Then how do you explain your own words?:

1whowaits wrote:Sacrifice and offering are no longer an atonement for sin, which is what Heb 10 is referring to,


Besides that, let me show you something else, but first, let me post your quote:

1whowaits wrote:While Dan 9 does not specifically describe the AOD, it does allude to it, and the AOD is described repeatedly in other scripture (Dan 7, 11, 12, Matt 24, 2 Thess). Dan 9 is not interpreted in a vacuum, which you are attempting to do, it agrees with the rest of scripture which does describe the AC stopping the offering and setting up the AOD


Here are all the verses in the book of Daniel (having to do with the AOD) that have the word "sacrifice" in them, according to a keyword search on Bible gateway:

Daniel 8:11
It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low.


Daniel 8:12
Because of rebellion, the host of the saints and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.


Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, "How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, and the surrender of the sanctuary and of the host that will be trampled underfoot?"


Daniel 9:21
while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice


Daniel 9:27
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "


Daniel 11:31
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


Daniel 12:11
"From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.


Now, if you look at the Young's Literal translation for these same verses, you will notice something interesting.

Daniel 8:11 (Young's Literal Translation)

11And unto the prince of the host it exerteth itself, and by it taken away hath been the continual [sacrifice], and thrown down the base of his sanctuary.


Daniel 8:12 (Young's Literal Translation)

12And the host is given up, with the continual [sacrifice], through transgression, and it throweth down truth to the earth, and it hath worked, and prospered.


Daniel 8:13 (Young's Literal Translation)

13`And I hear a certain holy one speaking, and a certain holy one saith to the wonderful numberer who is speaking: Till when [is] the vision of the continual [sacrifice], and of the transgression, an astonishment, to make both sanctuary and host a treading down?


Daniel 9:27 (Young's Literal Translation)

27And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'


Daniel 11:31 (Young's Literal Translation)

31And strong ones out of him stand up, and have polluted the sanctuary, the stronghold, and have turned aside the continual [sacrifice], and appointed the desolating abomination.


Daniel 12:11 (Young's Literal Translation)

11and from the time of the turning aside of the perpetual [sacrifice], and to the giving out of the desolating abomination, [are] days a thousand, two hundred, and ninety.


As you can see, the only verse that actually has the word "sacrifice" in the original text is Daniel 9:27. The brackets in all the other verses indicate that the word [sacrifice] was added in by the translators. Apparently the "continual"/"perpetual" was assumed, by the translators, to be the burnt offerings or other offerings that were offered on a daily basis (one in the morning and one in the evening) and so the word "sacrifice" was added in.

Incidentally, the only verse that does not have the words "continual" or "perpetual" is Daniel 9:27.

While burnt offerings and other offerings were offered every day, the Passover sacrifice was offered only once a year.

Apparently, whatever it is that the anti-Christ is going to stop, it will be something that occurs or is offered on a "continual" or "daily" basis.

The following verses use Strong's H8548 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8548&t=KJV
Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified 1431 [himself] even to the prince 8269 of the host 6635, and by him the daily 8548 [sacrifice] was taken away 7311 7311 , and the place 4349 of his sanctuary 4720 was cast down 7993 .

Dan 8:12 And an host 6635 was given 5414 [him] against the daily 8548 [sacrifice] by reason of transgression 6588, and it cast down 7993 the truth 571 to the ground 776; and it practised 6213 , and prospered 6743 .

Dan 8:13 Then I heard 8085 one 259 saint 6918 speaking 1696 , and another 259 saint 6918 said 559 unto that certain 6422 [saint] which spake 1696 , How long [shall be] the vision 2377 [concerning] the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and the transgression 6588 of desolation 8074 , to give 5414 both the sanctuary 6944 and the host 6635 to be trodden under foot 4823?

Dan 11:31 And arms 2220 shall stand 5975 on his part, and they shall pollute 2490 the sanctuary 4720 of strength 4581, and shall take away 5493 the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and they shall place 5414 the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 .

Dan 12:11 And from the time 6256 [that] the daily 8548 [sacrifice] shall be taken away 5493 , and the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 set up 5414 , [there shall be] a thousand 505 two hundred 3967 and ninety 8673 days 3117.


As opposed to Daniel 9:27, which uses Strong's H2077 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2077&t=KJV

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm 1396 the covenant 1285 with many 7227 for one 259 week 7620: and in the midst 2677 of the week 7620 he shall cause the sacrifice 2077 and the oblation 4503 to cease 7673 , and for the overspreading 3671 of abominations 8251 he shall make [it] desolate 8074 , even until the consummation 3617, and that determined 2782 shall be poured 5413 upon the desolate 8074 .
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=9&v=27&t=KJV#27




1whowaits wrote:Dan 9 is not interpreted in a vacuum, which you are attempting to do, it agrees with the rest of scripture which does describe the AC stopping the offering and setting up the AOD


If there is anything that does not agree with the rest of scripture, it is assigning the pronoun "he" to the anti-Christ out of context just because somebody told us that is what we are supposed to do.

Btw, if you have noticed, I don't recall ever attributing the pronoun "he" to the Lord, Jesus. I have only answered every objection with scripture, if I'm not mistaken. But I will double check to make sure.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:01 pm

Watching,..you make things complicated when it is really all so simple.
You quote:
The Lord, Jesus Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, before He was "cutoff." There are apparently 3 1/2 years (represented by "a time, times, and half a time;" "42 months;" and "1,260 days") remaining before this prophecy is fulfilled.
My Reply:
So are you implying that 486 1/2 years were fulfilled and that the anti-christ would only rule for 3 1/2 years? :grin:
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:47 pm

Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:Watching,..you make things complicated when it is really all so simple.
You quote:
The Lord, Jesus Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, before He was "cutoff." There are apparently 3 1/2 years (represented by "a time, times, and half a time;" "42 months;" and "1,260 days") remaining before this prophecy is fulfilled.
My Reply:
So are you implying that 486 1/2 years were fulfilled and that the anti-christ would only rule for 3 1/2 years? :grin:


Isn't that what the scriptures say (or about that long)? See below:

Daniel 7:25 (King James Version)

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Daniel 12:11 (King James Version)

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


Revelation 13:5 (King James Version)

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:16 pm

Watching, i may be misunderstanding you, so you do not think that the 'he' in Dan 9:27 is Jesus? I thought that was your opinion, please clarify. So if the 'he' is not the AC or Christ, who does the 'he' refer to? Clearly the 'he' does not refer to Christ as Christ does not confirm a covenant for 1 seven. The only other individual associated with a desolation in the temple/sanctuary/holy place, who stops the sacrifice and offering, who is a desloator that has an end poured out on him is the AC. You have another candidate perhaps? Anyone can answer with scripture but the scripture must be reasonably and logically applied.

As far as the offerings and sacrifice, Rev 11 does describe a literal, physical temple of God in which there is an altar and worshippers. In the temple of God, in which there is an altar, the worshippers would be performing sacrifices on that altar. It would appear that the logical interpretation for all the passages that describe the 'continual' is that the continual sacrifice is being offered.

Jesus did not put an end to all sacrifice and offering. He did not put an end to the literal sacrifice as the sacrifices occurred long after He ascended, He did not stop them, they did not cease until 30 years later when the Romans stopped them. So the statement in Dan 9:27 does not apply to Jesus.

Jesus made 1 function of a certain sacrifice void, the sin offering, but He did not make all sacrifices and offerings void, they can still be relevant and do appear to resume during the millenium (fellowship offering part of the Feast of Tabernacles celerated yearly during the millenium, 'sacrifice' specifically mentioned in Zech 14).
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:15 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

1whowaits wrote:Watching, i may be misunderstanding you, so you do not think that the 'he' in Dan 9:27 is Jesus? I thought that was your opinion, please clarify.


Why would you think that? Could the scriptures that I posted have something to do with it?

1whowaits wrote:So if the 'he' is not the AC or Christ, who does the 'he' refer to?


My point is that I do not have to answer this question by adding anything or taking anything away from the scriptures. I will let the scriptures speak for themselves.

1whowaits wrote:Clearly the 'he' does not refer to Christ as Christ does not confirm a covenant for 1 seven.


That is your opinion.

1whowaits wrote:The only other individual associated with a desolation in the temple/sanctuary/holy place, who stops the sacrifice and offering, who is a desloator that has an end poured out on him is the AC.


The scripture does not say that the one who makes desolate for the overspreading of abominations is the desolator. That is your interpretation. Here is what the scripture says:

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


1whowaits wrote:You have another candidate perhaps?


No, I do not have another candidate. As I said before, I am only quoting scripture.

1whowaits wrote:As far as the offerings and sacrifice, Rev 11 does describe a literal, physical temple of God in which there is an altar and worshippers. In the temple of God, in which there is an altar, the worshippers would be performing sacrifices on that altar. It would appear that the logical interpretation for all the passages that describe the 'continual' is that the continual sacrifice is being offered.


As I said before, whatever it is that the AC will stop, will apparently be a "continual" of some sort as indicated by the following verses:

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified 1431 [himself] even to the prince 8269 of the host 6635, and by him the daily 8548 [sacrifice] was taken away 7311 7311 , and the place 4349 of his sanctuary 4720 was cast down 7993 .

Dan 8:12 And an host 6635 was given 5414 [him] against the daily 8548 [sacrifice] by reason of transgression 6588, and it cast down 7993 the truth 571 to the ground 776; and it practised 6213 , and prospered 6743 .

Dan 8:13 Then I heard 8085 one 259 saint 6918 speaking 1696 , and another 259 saint 6918 said 559 unto that certain 6422 [saint] which spake 1696 , How long [shall be] the vision 2377 [concerning] the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and the transgression 6588 of desolation 8074 , to give 5414 both the sanctuary 6944 and the host 6635 to be trodden under foot 4823?

Dan 11:31 And arms 2220 shall stand 5975 on his part, and they shall pollute 2490 the sanctuary 4720 of strength 4581, and shall take away 5493 the daily 8548 [sacrifice], and they shall place 5414 the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 .

Dan 12:11 And from the time 6256 [that] the daily 8548 [sacrifice] shall be taken away 5493 , and the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 set up 5414 , [there shall be] a thousand 505 two hundred 3967 and ninety 8673 days 3117.


In contrast to the sacrifice that was caused to cease in Daniel 9:27.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm 1396 the covenant 1285 with many 7227 for one 259 week 7620: and in the midst 2677 of the week 7620 he shall cause the sacrifice 2077 and the oblation 4503 to cease 7673 , and for the overspreading 3671 of abominations 8251 he shall make [it] desolate 8074 , even until the consummation 3617, and that determined 2782 shall be poured 5413 upon the desolate 8074 .




1whowaits wrote:Jesus did not put an end to all sacrifice and offering. He did not put an end to the literal sacrifice as the sacrifices occurred long after He ascended, He did not stop them, they did not cease until 30 years later when the Romans stopped them. So the statement in Dan 9:27 does not apply to Jesus.


As I said before, the text in Daniel 9:27 does not say that "he" will put a "stop" or an "end" to the sacrifices . Once again, here is what the text says:

Daniel 9:27 (King James Version)

27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.




1whowaits wrote:Jesus made 1 function of a certain sacrifice void, the sin offering, but He did not make all sacrifices and offerings void, they can still be relevant and do appear to resume during the millenium (fellowship offering part of the Feast of Tabernacles celerated yearly during the millenium, 'sacrifice' specifically mentioned in Zech 14).


I don't know if there will be literal sacrifices during the millennium or not. But here's what I do know:

Hebrews 10:1-12 (King James Version)

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:46 pm

Watching, the scriptures do speak for themselves as Jesus is never described as confirming a covenant for 1 seven anywhere in scripture. That is my opinion and a logical conclusion based on scripture and there is no information whatsoever in scripture to contradict that logical conclusion.

Zech 14 : 21 clearly states 'all who come to sacrifice', in the context of the millenium when all nations go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles and to worship Jesus. Sacrifices will continue during the millenium while Jesus rules, suggesting that Jesus approves of the sacrifices as He has the power to stop all sacrifices if He so desires.

As sacrifices occur under Jesus' rule during the millenium, Jesus did not put an end to sacrifices and offerings, and the logical conclusion is that Dan 9:27 again does not apply to Jesus. And 'causing to cease' and 'putting an end' to sacrifice is essentially the same action, there is no significant difference as you appear to indicate.

The only logical conclusion based on the information we are given from scripture is that Jesus is not the 'he' of Dan 9:27. That would then suggest that there is someone else that is the 'he' of Dan 9:27.

And this is further confirmed by Jesus' own words in Matt 24 as He refers to the setting up of an abomination that is described in Daniel. Jesus describes HIs return as occurring sometime after the abomination, after the time of distress, so it is clear that Jesus is not the one involved with the abomination in the holy place. As Dan 8 and 11 do describe an individual (the little horn/king)associated with setting up an abomination/desolation, and the stopping of the continual (sacrifice), there is someone associated with the stopping of the sacrifice and the abomination/desolation of the temple.

As it is clear from scripture that Jesus does not confirm a covenant for 1 seven, and Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering, Dan 9:27 is referring to someone else. And the logical conclusion from the other scriptures would be that that someone is the AC, the little horn, the king.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby pegmo on Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:03 am

Watching, I have been reading through your posts because in our Daniel bible study last night I noticed the "After" in 9:26 and I had never noticed it before. And that got the wheels turning a bit.

So here is a question for you based on your interpretation of Daniel. How do you interpret the remainder of Daniel 9:26, specifically, "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"....

What is that section of the verse referring to in your understanding?

I might as well throw this question in also. What does the "it" refer to in v27? Is the "it" the covenant that is made desolate? If so, what does that mean?


Thanks much.

Pegmo
User avatar
pegmo
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby Mrs. B on Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:35 am

Daniel 9:27


Confirm? does that mean that it already exast....
confirm to establish or reinstate?
Confirm the Covenant....

Isaiah
Is. 42:6.....I the Lord have called thee in Righteousness and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people...for a light of the Gentiles;

He is talking abouat Jesus.....and give thee for a covenant of the people...

Isaiah 55:4....Behold, I have Given Him (Jesus) for a Witness to the People, A Leader and Commander of the People...

4:3....Incline your ear, and Come unto me:
hear, and your soul shall live;
and I Will Make an Everlasting Covenant with you,
Even the sure mercies of David...

4....Behold, I have Given HIM (Jesus) for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people....

5....Behold, thou shall Call A Nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath Glorified thee...

I Peter 2:9...But ye are a chosen generation, a Royal Priesthood, AN HOLY NATION, a Pecular people;
10.....Which in time past were not a people...but are now the people of God....(the Jews and the Gentiles)

back to verse 3.....And I Will Make An Everlasting Covenant with You...

Isaiah 6a4:4...For since the Beginning of the World men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear,
neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what He Hath prepared for him that Waiteth for Him....


Matt. 26:26....And as they were eating, Jesus took Bread, and Blessed it, and brake it, and Gave it to the disciples, and said...TAKE, EAT; THIS IS MY BODY.

27...And he took the Cup, and Gave Thanks, and gave it to them, saying DRINK YE ALL OF IT:
28...For This is MY BLOOD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT...( New covenant) Which is shed for many for the Remission of Sins...



Hebrews 8:6...But Now hath He obtained a More Excellent Ministry...by how much also he is the mediator of a
BETTER COVENANT....WHICH WAS ESTABLISHED UPON BETTER PROMISES.....

7....For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second...

8...For finding fault with them, he saith...Behold, THE DAYS COME..saith the Lord, when I Will Make a NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND With the house of Judah:

10....For this is the Covenant that I will Make with the House of Israel after those days, saith the Lord;
I Will Put MY LAWS into their mind...and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a People:

13....In that he saith, A NEW COVENANT....He hath Made the First Old...Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.....


We are Now Under a New Covenant......
Jesus established a New Covenant......A Blood Covenant....for all who will believe Jew and Gentile...
We become One in Him.......One Body....Jew and Gentile.....One Church.....One Holy Nation...(Peter writes)
We Become One in Him........One Covenant

And He shall Confirm the Covenant with Many for one week....but in the midst of the week....1260 days?

He shall cause the Sacrifice and the Oblation to cease....and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.........
(when our sins are full.....the chruch sins...and the world are full he shall make it desolate)

He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week....He is Jesus and it is His blood covenant...He will not judge the world until all have a chance to hear and believe....but in the midst of the week...the week is cut short because our sins are full....then he makes it desolate...or the world is judged...the seven viols of the wrath of God is poured out.....


Mrs. B
Mrs. B
 
Posts: 2062
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:19 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby Mr Baldy on Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:16 am

1whowaits wrote:As it is clear from scripture that Jesus does not confirm a covenant for 1 seven, and Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering, Dan 9:27 is referring to someone else. And the logical conclusion from the other scriptures would be that that someone is the AC, the little horn, the king.


:a3: I really don't see how those who read this particular passage of Scripture can't see this.
Mr Baldy
 
Posts: 2188
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:26 pm
Location: San Antonio, Tx

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:09 am

Hi 1whowaits,

1whowaits wrote:Watching, the scriptures do speak for themselves as Jesus is never described as confirming a covenant for 1 seven anywhere in scripture.


Do you know of any scriptures that describe the anti-Christ as confirming a covenant for 1 seven? (You can't say
Daniel 9:27, of course.)

Besides, as I have already said, the scriptures describe a 3 1/2 year time frame where Jesus did everything He was required to do beginning with His baptism.

Matthew 3:13-17 (King James Version)

13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


The scriptures also describe a 3 1/2 year time frame (roughly) that is yet future.

Is there a seven year time frame described anywhere in the scriptures concerning the anti-Christ? (Again, you can't say Daniel 9:27.)

1whowaits wrote:That is my opinion and a logical conclusion based on scripture and there is no information whatsoever in scripture to contradict that logical conclusion.


I have given you information from scripture that would contradict that logical conclusion, but you choose to ignore it.

1whowaits wrote:Zech 14 : 21 clearly states 'all who come to sacrifice', in the context of the millenium when all nations go up to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of Tabernacles and to worship Jesus. Sacrifices will continue during the millenium while Jesus rules, suggesting that Jesus approves of the sacrifices as He has the power to stop all sacrifices if He so desires.


I am not arguing whether there will be literal sacrifices during the millennium, perhaps, as a way of looking back symbolically at what Christ did for us on the cross, just as it was done symbolically, as a way of looking forward, in the Old Testament, or not. That is beside the point. But either way, whether literal sacrifices will be performed during the millennium, or not, that does not negate what Christ did on the cross, for us, and what it means in terms of the atonement of sins. Are you denying what was written in Hebrews 10?

Hebrews 10:1-12 (King James Version)

Hebrews 10

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;


first
second

1whowaits wrote:And 'causing to cease' and 'putting an end' to sacrifice is essentially the same action, there is no significant difference as you appear to indicate.


I am not going to argue this point too heavily, because I am not familiar with the original Hebrew words that were used. But, for whatever reason, the translators of the KJV chose to translate it this way. And in English it makes a big difference whether you actively stop something, or whether you cause something to be stopped by some other action.

1whowaits wrote:The only logical conclusion based on the information we are given from scripture is that Jesus is not the 'he' of Dan 9:27. That would then suggest that there is someone else that is the 'he' of Dan 9:27.


That is according to your logic. Not mine.

1whowaits wrote:And this is further confirmed by Jesus' own words in Matt 24 as He refers to the setting up of an abomination that is described in Daniel. Jesus describes HIs return as occurring sometime after the abomination, after the time of distress, so it is clear that Jesus is not the one involved with the abomination in the holy place. As Dan 8 and 11 do describe an individual (the little horn/king)associated with setting up an abomination/desolation, and the stopping of the continual (sacrifice), there is someone associated with the stopping of the sacrifice and the abomination/desolation of the temple.


First of all, let me say, I NEVER said that Jesus was involved with the abomination in the holy place. Those are YOUR words. Btw, I never said that there wouldn't be a stopping of some sort of "continual" in the holy place as referred to by Daniel 8 and 11.

Second of all, if the Lord's coming was to be preceded by an "anti-Christ seven year covenant", then why didn't Jesus mention that "little" detail in His description of the signs preceding His coming in Matthew 24.

Matthew 24 (King James Version)

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



1whowaits wrote:As it is clear from scripture that Jesus does not confirm a covenant for 1 seven, and Jesus did not put an end to sacrifice and offering, Dan 9:27 is referring to someone else. And the logical conclusion from the other scriptures would be that that someone is the AC, the little horn, the king.


Again, this is YOUR logical conclusion.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:20 am

Hi Pegmo,

:needabreak: I will answer your question, probably, later today. I had already been working on my post to 1 whowaits, before I noticed it.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby lamb7 on Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:53 am

A study to ponder. Would love to know what you all think?

http://ichthys.com/Tribulation_Part_3B.htm#III. The Kingdom of the Beast

IV. Antichrist's Alliance with Israel

In the long history of the nation of Israel, there have been many times when, instead of relying upon the Lord who formed her and delivered her from the smelting furnace of Egypt to be His own special people and nation, she has instead chosen to rely upon the power of countervailing empires. From the human point of view, a relatively small nation poised in-between opposing and competing empires as Israel has been for much of her history would seem to be well served by allying herself to one party or the other, or at least by seeking help from one side when threatened by the other. But Israel is God's special possession, the "apple of His eye" (Zech.2:8), and it has ever been His will for her to rely, rather than upon the deceptiveness of human strength and good will, upon His own power and mercy, . . .

. . . not on Egypt instead (cf. Is.20:5-6; 30:1-7):

Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help, [who] rely upon horses and put their faith in chariots because they are numerous and in cavalry because it is strong, but who have not looked to the Holy One of Israel, and have not sought the Lord.
Isaiah 31:1


. . . not Assyria instead (cf. Ezek.23:5-8):

You shall not say "an alliance (i.e., with Assyria)" [as the solution] for everything [for] which this people may say "an alliance (i.e., with Assyria)" [as the solution] (cf. Is.30:1). And you shall not fear that which makes them afraid nor tremble at it (i.e., the threat of the northern kingdom allied with Syria). It is the Lord of Hosts whom you shall sanctify, and He is the One who shall be your fear, and He is the One at whom you shall tremble.
Isaiah 8:12-13


. . . not on Babylon instead (cf. Ezek.23:14-21):

What will you say when [the Lord] puts in charge over you as commanders those very ones whom you courted (i.e., the Babylonians)?
Jeremiah 13:21a



In contrast to the revival led by Moses and Elijah and administered by the 144,000, the state of Israel itself will remain in secular hands until our Lord returns. And this same tendency to seek security apart from the Lord will be the proximate cause of many of her tribulational difficulties as she first allies herself to the beast (as one of the seven kingdoms), then at the Tribulation's end conspires against him in company with tribulational Babylon (see part 5 of this series). Outside of those who are today believers, and that much larger future number who shall embrace the cross of Jesus Christ during the exceptional Jewish evangelism which will then occur, the state of Israel is and will be during the Tribulation an exceptionally secular and materialistic state (cf. Is.2:7-8; Amos 8:11), making it a natural ally of Babylon, even if it has and will have its issues with the other coalitions of revived Rome. And it is Babylon that will count, especially at the inception of the Tribulation in its capacity as antichrist's initial base of power. Facing an intensified threat from the growth of the southern alliance (whose rallying cry her destruction will be), it is not difficult to see how Israel in particular will look to Babylon and to antichrist for deliverance, especially considering the special relationship between the two countries which exists even today.

A part of the above trend as well as a result of it will be the emergence of a Jewish ruler whose power and influence will be on a par with the other exceptional "kings" of Europe who will gain sovereignty during the early days of the Tribulation. Not to be confused with antichrist's false prophet who will only come to the fore during the Tribulation's second half (Rev.13:11-18), this Jewish premier is instead one of the seven kings, and also described as the "foolish" (or "godless") and "worthless" (or "wicked") shepherd in Zechariah chapter eleven, a prophecy that sheds much light upon the details of this period from the point of view of events in Israel:

(4) Thus says the Lord my God: "Pasture the flock of the slaughter. (5) Those who buy them will slaughter them and will not be held to account and those who pasture them will not take pity on them. (6) For I will no longer take pity on the inhabitants of the land," says the Lord. "For, behold, I am going to hand over [all] mankind each into the hand of his neighbor and each into the hand of his king, for they will crush the earth and I will not deliver out of their hands." (7) So I pastured the flock of slaughter, that is, those of the flock to be afflicted, and I took for myself two staffs. I called the one "Delight" and the other "Bindings", and [thus] I pastured the flock. (8) After I humbled the three shepherds in the first month, my heart had become grieved with [the flock], and they had come to detest me. (9) So I said, "I will not pasture you [any longer]. Let those destined to die, die, and let those destined to be humbled, be humbled, and let the remainder eat each one the flesh of his companion". (10) Then I took my staff [named] "Delight", and I broke it so as to break the covenant which I had made with all the peoples. (11) And it was broken on that [very] day, and thus those to be afflicted who were watching me knew that this was the word of the Lord. (12) Then I said to them, "If it seems good in your eyes, give me my wages, but if not, then do not". And they weighed out my wages to me, thirty [pieces] of silver. (13) And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter['s field], [this] magnificent price at which I have been valued by them." So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter['s field]. (14) Then I broke my second staff [named] "Bindings" so as to break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (15) Then the Lord said to me, "Take up for yourself now the equipment of a godless shepherd. (16) For, behold, I am going to raise up a shepherd in the land who will not look after the humbled, nor seek the [lost] young, nor heal the sick, nor provide for the healthy, but will eat the flesh of the fat and tear off their hooves." (17) Woe to the wicked shepherd who abandons the flock. A sword upon his arm and upon his right eye! And may his arm shrivel and his right eye go blind!
Zechariah 11:4-17



In this prophecy, Zechariah, under divine command, acts out an allegory whose prime application is to the rejection of the gospel message about Jesus Christ as it is proclaimed to Israel during the Tribulation through the ministry of Moses and Elijah. The prime opposition to the truth in this passage is the 7th king, the Israeli leader whose kingdom constitutes the last of the seven horns (rather than antichrist, whom the "king" and "shepherd" in this context are often taken to be):

verses 1-3: The theme of the powerful about to be humbled as a result of the process described clearly marks this allegory as applicable primarily to the events leading up to Christ's return (namely, the Tribulation; cf. Is.2:11ff; 5:15; Is.13:11; Ezek.21:26).

verses 4-6: These verses serve to apply the prophetic information in this chapter to the Great Tribulation in Israel and beyond. The "flock of slaughter" refers to those destined for tribulation. The "buyers" are antichrist and his invading army at Armageddon, who will completely ravage the land of Israel during that campaign (cf. Ezek.38-39). The "sellers" are the 7th king, the Israeli leader, and his cronies. They are not "held to account" for this activity, meaning that they will not have to pay for their horrendous behavior – until they are destroyed at Armageddon. Because of the rejection of the gospel by the majority population of Israel at this time, in spite of the ministries of Moses and Elijah and of the 144,000, the period of mercy will end at the Tribulation's mid-point, and the Great Tribulation will ensue, during which time the Lord will "not take pity any longer" upon the land of Israel as she undergoes the most troubled time in her storied history (cf. Jer.30:7). And not only will Israel suffer – the same pattern of intense tribulation will obtain for "all mankind".

verses 7-8: After the summary overview discussed above, these verses take us back to the period prior to the commencement of the second half of the seven years. The flock "to be afflicted" are those who will suffer tribulation on account of their rejection of the gospel. In his divinely directed actions here, Zechariah is acting as a type (i.e., symbolic representative) of Christ, the Good Shepherd, who in taking for Himself two staffs, Moses and Elijah, is offering Himself and His kingdom soon to come to the inhabitants of Israel. The allegory thus condenses the First and Second Advents as is often the case in Old Testament prophecy, for the Age of the Church is, in prophetical terms, an interlude between the cross and the Messiah's millennial reign. The names of the two staffs, "Delight" and "Bindings" refer respectively to the joy and love all God's people should have for Him and the relationship He makes available through Jesus Christ (seen in His establishment through Moses of the Old Covenant which foreshadows the New Covenant), and the restoration or "binding up" of what has been broken in His reestablishment of Israel as His covenant nation through which the Messiah will rule the world (whose proclamation is the province of Elijah, as we have seen). The ministry of Moses and Elijah will "thus" (verse seven) be the means by which these truths are brought home to Israel (though most will not accept them until the point of Christ's return). The humbling of "the three shepherds" refers to the defeat of the southern alliance by antichrist at the Tribulation's mid-point. Following the removal of this external threat (the number one factor, as we are suggesting, in Israel's decision and desire to join with antichrist and his alliance), antichrist will make war on Moses and Elijah, and the majority of Israel will openly choose for the former, that is, they will come to "detest" the Lord and His representatives, causing Him to be "grieved" with them and thus bringing the period of mercy to an end. This will happen at the inception of the Great Tribulation (i.e., its "first month" [n.b., not "one month"; cf. Gen.1:5, "day one" = "the first day"]). Ironically for Israel, this same removal of the threat of the Mahdi's invasion will also remove all restraint from antichrist and his policies, and will thus begin the implementation of his and his father the devil's plan to destroy Israel.

verses 9-14: In these verses we are given the details of this transition from warning and mercy to judgment and tribulation. Having rejected God's truth, God's grace, and God's Son, He will "no longer pasture" these sheep, and they will instead have to endure the harsh treatment of the one they have chosen in His stead, antichrist and his local representative, the 7th king. The breaking of the "covenant" thus refers to the termination of the prior period of mercy to which God's chosen people were entitled, taking as its first symbol the death of the one who had mediated it, namely Moses (i.e., the staff named "Delight"). Just as we have seen that the trumpet judgments of the Tribulation's first half function as warnings and the bowl judgments of the Great Tribulation as primarily punitive, so here we also see divine mercy towards Israel in the period before the commencement of second half of the seven years transitioning now to harsh tribulation. And with the blanket of protection removed from Israel, it is no wonder that the same tribulation and punishment is visited upon "all the peoples". Nor is there any delay, for the Great Tribulation will commence "on that very day" that Moses is removed as a witness to Israel and to the world (compare Rev.11:13-14 with 11:15-19). In his role here as a symbolic representative of our Lord Jesus Christ, Zechariah is told to portray this rejection of the two witnesses for what it truly is, a rejection of the Lord Himself. The prophecy of the thirty pieces of silver, the "severance pay" for the Messiah and His ministry on the one hand and for Moses and Elijah on the other shows unequivocally the low regard that unbelievers in Israel had and will have for the One who died for them as well as for the tremendous sacrifices of His servants on their behalf. This was fulfilled during our Lord's First Advent, and is here applied to Moses (and Elijah) prior to the Second Advent. In both cases this severance pay is given not to the Lord Himself but to His betrayer, to Judas during the First Advent (in a very literal fashion) and the to the 7th king (who aids in the war against the two witnesses) prior to the Second Advent.(55) The breaking of the "brotherhood" mentioned here refers historically to the split between believing "Judah" and unbelieving "Israel". At the time of writing, the northern kingdom was a distant memory so that Israel stands symbolically for the unbelievers who reject the message of Moses and Elijah, while "Judah" refers to those who respond to the gospel message and flee into the desert during the middle of the Tribulation prior to the commencement of the Great Persecution, after responding to the “binding” ministry of restoration mediated by Elijah (and Moses) which divides Israel into those who respond and those who do not (cf. Rev.12:1-17).

verses 15-17: The worthless (or, better, the "godless") shepherd is, in fact, the 7th king, the ruler of Israel during the tribulational period who is part of antichrist's coalition from the beginning. His self-interested modus operandi is clear to see in these verses as he exploits the people and fails to protect them in their hour of need (cf. Ezek.34; Jer.23:1-4; Zech.10:2-3; Jn.10:1-18). His coming condemnation is thus unavoidable.

The 7th king who will rule and abuse Israel during the Tribulation as an associate of antichrist is also mentioned in Ezekiel chapter twenty-one:

And as for you, O defiled [and] wicked prince of Israel, whose day will come at the evil end time (i.e., the Tribulation), this is what the Lord God says, "Take off his [royal] turban and remove his crown. This will not stand (i.e., he and his regime will be deposed). Exalt the humble, but humble the exalted. I will make [his land] a ruin, a ruin, a ruin. But this too shall not happen until the One to whom judgment belongs shall come (i.e., the Messiah), for [to this] have I appointed Him" (cf. Jn.5:22; Acts 10:42; 1Pet.4:5).
Ezekiel 21:25-27


The pattern of the rise, reign, and fall of the 7th king is unquestionably very similar to that of the other six (and most probably to that of the remaining three as well). This shepherd appears to the sheep who support him in his ascension like the champion of their dreams, and quickly rises to supreme and unchallenged power in his own country in no small degree because of an imminent external threat. Once in control, however, he has little regard for his charges, exploiting them mercilessly for his own ends (and no doubt for the benefit of his inner circle as well). As in the case of this particular king who will support antichrist right to the end, even through the Armageddon campaign whose object is to destroy all Israel (i.e., the 7th king's own country), we can expect that for the other subordinate kings as well the wishes of their patron antichrist will easily outweigh the true interests of their respective peoples.

In addition to specific information about the king of Israel during the Tribulation, scripture also gives us specific information about the compact or alliance made between antichrist and Israel during that time.

Then he (i.e., antichrist) will confirm an agreement (or "covenant"; Hebrew, ברית, beriyth) with the powerful [in Israel] during [that] one [remaining] week (i.e., the 70th week, the Tribulation), but in the middle of the week (i.e., just prior to the Tribulation's mid-point) he will put a halt to sacrifice and offering (i.e., eliminating Moses and Elijah and interrupting the temple rites). And on account of the extreme [nature] of [his] abominations, he [will] be causing desolations (i.e., desertion and estrangement from God), even until the end when what has been determined will be poured out upon the one characterized by [this] desolation (i.e., the beast as archetype and cause of the alienation and rebellion from God which he fosters).
Daniel 9:27


The beast, it will be remembered, is "the prince" of this "covenant" (Dan.11:22), and although this "covenant" should not be confused with the "holy covenant" also mentioned by Daniel (Dan.11:28; 11:30; 11:32), it is clear that, as part of his policy of representing himself as the Messiah to Israel and to the world, antichrist will indeed portray this agreement as the fulfillment of the "New Covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33. In this way, and despite the refutation that will without doubt proceed from Moses and Elijah, the beast will be effective in coopting those in Israel (and around the world) who are impressed by the ministry of the two witnesses yet still unwilling to give themselves to Christ (cf. Jn.5:43). In reality, of course, this will be no more than the clever "packaging" of the treaty with Israel in a pseudo-Messianic wrapping (attempting through his political and media domination to take credit for the reestablishment of the temple and temple rites). Thus this treaty will be the political focal point for the myth which antichrist will foster about himself as the "conquering Messiah", out to protect Israel (and Christianity) from the Mahdi's southern alliance (a propaganda ploy that will figure large in promoting apostasy and the advance of the beast's ecumenical religious union). On the basis of the model which Daniel 9:27 provides, we may therefore further deduce from this verse that antichrist will gain control over all of the seven nations of his original empire by means of this same process of formal confederation. But while these treaties may spell out the independence of the subordinate states, in actuality they will only be a means for disarming opposition. As in the case of Israel, which this scripture explicitly details, we may expect that also in regard to the other six initial member states (or, more precisely, coalitions) any rights or freedoms originally given de jure will also be de facto annulled (as in the case of Israel) as the beast and his lieutenants consolidate Satan's worldwide empire. That this (and therefore these) covenants are said to be made "with the powerful" (Hebrew, רבים, rabiym), is also most instructive, indicating that all of the coalitions which ally with antichrist's Babylon will first come to be ruled by powerful oligarchies, presided over by the "kings" with their special relationship to the beast.

It should also be noted here that neither this treaty nor any of the treaties are subject to a time limit (see the corrected translation of Dan.9:27 above). Yet the beast's relation to Israel is special in certain regards. After all, as the pseudo-Messiah, Israel is the natural and ultimate focal point of his earthly rule. Both the fact that only one of the beast's heads has a mortal wound and that all of the horns have to be on one of the heads (cf. Dan.7:8; 7:20) indicate a closer, "special" relationship with one of the seven county-coalitions (Rev.13:1-3; 17:1-11), and that country is surely Israel, the place where antichrist will take up residence during the Great Tribulation (Dan.11:45; 2Thes.2:4).

by Dr. Robert D. Luginbill


In Christ,
lamb
lamb7
 
Posts: 420
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:54 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:05 pm

watching wrote:Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:Watching,..you make things complicated when it is really all so simple.
You quote:
The Lord, Jesus Christ's ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, before He was "cutoff." There are apparently 3 1/2 years (represented by "a time, times, and half a time;" "42 months;" and "1,260 days") remaining before this prophecy is fulfilled.
My Reply:
So are you implying that 486 1/2 years were fulfilled and that the anti-christ would only rule for 3 1/2 years? :grin:


Isn't that what the scriptures say (or about that long)? See below:

Daniel 7:25 (King James Version)

25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Daniel 12:11 (King James Version)

11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.


Revelation 13:5 (King James Version)

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Hi Watcher,
The beast is given authority to "Continue for 42 months.
Ask yourself the question,..."CONTINUED FROM WHAT?
The last week of Daniel is 7 years in length(Daniel 9;27)
in the middle point of Daniels 70th week..the Ac commits the A.O.D. which successfully stops the sacrifices,..you should know that if the temple is defiled that the Jews will not sacrifice again , not until the temple has been cleaned through ceremony
Mid point meaning at the half way mark of a specificline or time period,...thus "Continued 42 months.
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:44 pm

watching, there are no other scriptures that state that the AC confirms a covenant for 7 years, that it is the AC that confirms the covenant is based on deductive reasoning. Jesus is never associated with a covenant for 1 seven, He is always associated with the everlasting covenant. And you have not presented any scripture to support that point, if you have a scripture that states that Jesus confirms any coveant for 1 seven, or any short term covenant, bring it forth.

Also as the 69 weeks were fulfilled over 483 years according to the historical record, it does appear that a 'seven' is indeed 7 years. Jesus does not make any covenant for 7 years, Jesus is then ruled out as the one who confirms the covenant for 1 seven.

Another point is that we do not know for sure that Jesus' ministry was for 3.5 years, it is an assumption based on the counting of the Passovers noted in the Gospels, and some see an extra Passover and believe that His minsitry spanned 4.5 years. In any case there is no way to know for sure that Jesus' ministry was indeed 3.5 years, which would discount the 3.5 year partial fulfillment theory (other than such a thing is not suggested anywhere in scripture).

Jesus did not cause the sacrifice to cease, the sacrifices continued after He left the earth, that is a documentable fact. Jesus did make the offering for the atonement of sin unnecessary, but there is no indication that the other types sacrifices and offerings are void. And again scripture does describe the resumption of sacrifices in the future under Jesus' rule, if He caused all sacrifices to cease they should not resume again in the future.

Dan 9 :27 also describes the desolator as coming to an end which is not the case with Jesus, He has and will not come to an end.

In each of the 3 sections of Dan 9:27 associated with an individual, the confirming of a covenant for 7 years, causing the sacrifice to cease, and a coming to an end, in each instance Jesus can be ruled out as the one participating in these acts. Deductive reasoning would then suggest that as it is not Jesus doing these acts in Dan 9, then it is someone else.(pretty nifty reasoning, aye?)

While there is no other scripture to suggest that the AC confirms a coveanant for 1 seven, other scripture does state repeatedly that the AC will cause the sacrifice to cease and will come to his end. As there are no other individuals described as causing the sacrifice to cease other than the AC, it is most likely that the 'he' referred to in Dan 9:27 is the AC, as there are no other individuals that fit the profile.

As far as Jesus not referring to the 7 year period of Dan 9, Jesus does not refer to the time of distress as being a 3.5 year period of the GT either, but we know from Rev and Dan that it does exist. Jesus did not need to deliniate the exact time period beacause they were already noted in Daniel, which Jesus directly referred to. And which part of Daniel was Jesus referring to in Matt 24? One could argue that Jesus was referring to Dan 9:27 specifically, which would then make the theory that Jesus is the he in 9:27 immediately void as Jesus was clearly not referring to Himself as associated with the abomination.

We can try to come up with new and different interpretations of scripture by trying to make issues of the nuances of the language, or we can try to look at the scripture in a logical manner with what is clearly stated. IMO, logic trumps trying to nuance the language every time.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:43 pm

Hi 1whowaits,

We are basically talking in circles, and you constantly keep twisting my words, so I really do not have anything to say, at this point, that I haven't said already.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:51 pm

benny balerio wrote:Hi Watcher,
The beast is given authority to "Continue for 42 months.
Ask yourself the question,..."CONTINUED FROM WHAT?
The last week of Daniel is 7 years in length(Daniel 9;27)
in the middle point of Daniels 70th week..the Ac commits the A.O.D. which successfully stops the sacrifices,..you should know that if the temple is defiled that the Jews will not sacrifice again , not until the temple has been cleaned through ceremony
Mid point meaning at the half way mark of a specificline or time period,...thus "Continued 42 months.


Hi Benny,

I hate to disappoint you, but I looked up the word that was translated as "continue" in Revelation 13:5, and it turns out that it doesn't mean continue at all. Here is the Blue Letter Bible definition:

Printed from the Blue Letter Bible

Lexicon Results
Strong's G4160 - poieō
ποιέω

Transliteration

poieō


Pronunciation

poi-e'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech

verb


Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary

TDNT Reference

6:458,895


Vines

View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare

d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4160&t=KJV


It basically means "to do", "to make," "to perform." I don't see "continue" in the definition anywhere. Do you?
Last edited by watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:02 pm

Hi Pegmo,

I'm still thinking about an answer for your question.

I tried to type up an answer on line, but it turns out, I would probably have to write an entire commentary, since there are a number of alternatives, and I really do not have a clear cut answer at this point.

I'll keep working on it, though. But it may take a few days before I can get back to you.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:15 pm

Watching, I have been reading through your posts because in our Daniel bible study last night I noticed the "After" in 9:26 and I had never noticed it before. And that got the wheels turning a bit.

So here is a question for you based on your interpretation of Daniel. How do you interpret the remainder of Daniel 9:26, specifically, "the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"....

What is that section of the verse referring to in your understanding?

I might as well throw this question in also. What does the "it" refer to in v27? Is the "it" the covenant that is made desolate? If so, what does that mean?


Hello Pegmo. I realize the question is not directed at me, but I'm going to throw a few comments out there for everyone.

The "after" in verse 26 shows that there are certain things that will occur after the 62 weeks, which actually had 7 weeks precede, so in essence all but one week has expired when we come to this point. The items that will occur "after" will be the cutting off of the Messiah, then the people of the prince destroying both the city (of Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the temple which was just prophesied would be rebuilt). This should be a clear indicator that there can only be one Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth. He was cut off, right on schedule, and then after that the city of Jerusalem and the temple were both destroyed. This occurred in 70AD when Titus of Rome came in and burned the temple to the ground.

This lends itself to a natural break in between the 69th and 70th week. There were events to be fulfilled over a significant period of time before the events of the 70th week would unfold. These events which would occur in this extended period of time were to occur in an ongoing way “unto the end”.

The “it” in verse 27 I don’t think exists in the Hebrew. In the ESV it is worded this way, “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate”.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman
User avatar
The Orange Mailman
 
Posts: 775
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:45 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby pegmo on Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:03 pm

watching wrote:Hi Pegmo,

I'm still thinking about an answer for your question.

I tried to type up an answer on line, but it turns out, I would probably have to write an entire commentary, since there are a number of alternatives, and I really do not have a clear cut answer at this point.

I'll keep working on it, though. But it may take a few days before I can get back to you.


Ok, thanks. Whenever you have something, I would be happy to read it.

Pegmo
User avatar
pegmo
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:25 am

Hi Pegmo,

I sent you a PM.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:29 pm

watching wrote:
benny balerio wrote:Hi Watcher,
The beast is given authority to "Continue for 42 months.
Ask yourself the question,..."CONTINUED FROM WHAT?
The last week of Daniel is 7 years in length(Daniel 9;27)
in the middle point of Daniels 70th week..the Ac commits the A.O.D. which successfully stops the sacrifices,..you should know that if the temple is defiled that the Jews will not sacrifice again , not until the temple has been cleaned through ceremony
Mid point meaning at the half way mark of a specificline or time period,...thus "Continued 42 months.


Hi Benny,

I hate to disappoint you, but I looked up the word that was translated as "continue" in Revelation 13:5, and it turns out that it doesn't mean continue at all. Here is the Blue Letter Bible definition:

Printed from the Blue Letter Bible

Lexicon Results
Strong's G4160 - poieō
ποιέω

Transliteration

poieō


Pronunciation

poi-e'-ō (Key)

Part of Speech

verb


Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary

TDNT Reference

6:458,895


Vines

View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to make

a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc.

b) to be the authors of, the cause

c) to make ready, to prepare

d) to produce, bear, shoot forth

e) to acquire, to provide a thing for one's self

f) to make a thing out of something

g) to (make i.e.) render one anything

1) to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that

2) to (make i.e.) declare one anything

h) to put one forth, to lead him out

i) to make one do something

1) cause one to

j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)

2) to do

a) to act rightly, do well

1) to carry out, to execute

b) to do a thing unto one

1) to do to one

c) with designation of time: to pass, spend

d) to celebrate, keep

1) to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover

e) to perform: to a promise
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4160&t=KJV


It basically means "to do", "to make," "to perform." I don't see "continue" in the definition anywhere. Do you?

Actually I Do,
to put one forth, to lead him out
to produce, bear, shoot forth
to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
to carry out, to execute
with designation of time: to pass, spend
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:54 pm

In January 1st,2007 were the Prophecy of Daniel 9;27
there are about 3 months and 3 1/2 weeks to build the third temple, begin it's sacrifices, stop the sacrifices and commit the A.O.D.Also included,...there are not two wittnesses on the wold scene who must be slain at the A.O.D. and no sight of the 1,000 jews,...there are no sight of 1/3rd of the tree's,and all the green grass is still present.
A third of the sea has not turned into blood, and nothing resembling a great mountain has not fallen into the sea.
Sea creatures are still present and no mass destruction of maritime vessels have been sighted,...I think my point is clear.
January 1st, 2007 is not Daniel 9;27
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:58 pm

Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:Actually I Do,
to put one forth, to lead him out
to produce, bear, shoot forth
to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
to carry out, to execute
with designation of time: to pass, spend


I still don't see "to continue" in that definition.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:05 pm

benny balerio wrote:In January 1st,2007 were the Prophecy of Daniel 9;27
there are about 3 months and 3 1/2 weeks to build the third temple, begin it's sacrifices, stop the sacrifices and commit the A.O.D.Also included,...there are not two wittnesses on the wold scene who must be slain at the A.O.D. and no sight of the 1,000 jews,...there are no sight of 1/3rd of the tree's,and all the green grass is still present.
A third of the sea has not turned into blood, and nothing resembling a great mountain has not fallen into the sea.
Sea creatures are still present and no mass destruction of maritime vessels have been sighted,...I think my point is clear.
January 1st, 2007 is not Daniel 9;27


Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:...I think my point is clear.
January 1st, 2007 is not Daniel 9;27


I don't know about all of the above, but on that one point, I definitely have no disagreement with you.
edit: At least I, personally, do not see it that way anymore. I must admit, however, that there was, once, a time when I was considering it.

:blessyou:
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:24 pm

watching wrote:Hi Benny,

benny balerio wrote:Actually I Do,
to put one forth, to lead him out
to produce, bear, shoot forth
to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
to carry out, to execute
with designation of time: to pass, spend


I still don't see "to continue" in that definition.

Allow me to help you see it.

to put one forth, to lead him out.....To put one forth or to stop where you are at,..if you do not stop where you are at , then you put one forth as in to continue on, instead of stop where you are at.

adv.
1.Forward in time, place, or order; onward: from this time forth.
2.Out into view: A stranger came forth from the crowd; put my ideas forth.
3.Obsolete. Away from a specified place; abroad.
prep. Archaic
Out of; forth from.

Shoot forth,...forth as in:6 a : to cause to move suddenly or swiftly forward <shot the car onto the highway> b : to send or carry quickly :Swiftly forward as in continue

con·tin·ue (kn-tny) KEY

VERB:
con·tin·ued, con·tin·u·ing, con·tin·ues
VERB:
intr.

To go on with a particular action or in a particular condition; persist.
To exist over a prolonged period; last.
To remain in the same state, capacity, or place: She continued as mayor for a second term.
To go on after an interruption; resume: The negotiations continued after a break for lunch.
VERB:
tr.

To carry forward; persist in: The police will continue their investigation.
To carry further in time, space, or development; extend.
To cause to remain or last; retain.
To carry on after an interruption; resume.
Law To postpone or adjourn.
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby watching on Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:45 am

Hi Benny,

I still don't see how any of those definitions imply a previous starting point.

In fact, I don't see any reason why "continue" would, in and of itself, imply a previous starting point, within the context with which it was written in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 13:5 (King James Version)

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


From the way I'm understanding the text, he was given power to continue from the beginning of the 42 months to the end of the 42 months. There is no indication that he is given authority for any length of time other than the 42 months.

Now, if the text had said, he was given authority to continue for another 42 months, then I would most definitely agree that you have made your case. But, that is not what the text says. Here is what it says exactly:

Revelation 13:5 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

5και εδοθη αυτω στομα λαλουν μεγαλα και βλασφημιας και εδοθη αυτω εξουσια ποιησαι μηνας τεσσαρακοντα δυο


και and εδοθη was given αυτω [unto] him στομα a mouth λαλουν speaking μεγαλα great [things]
και and βλασφημιας blasphemies και and εδοθη was given αυτω [unto] him εξουσια power ποιησαι to perform (full definition is given above) μηνας months τεσσαρακοντα forty δυο two

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=13&v=5&t=KJV#top

So, as far as I can see, you have not proven, by the use of the word "continue," (which may not have been the best word choice in terms of translation, to begin with), that he is given authority to do anything for any length of time other than the 42 months which are allotted to him, according to the text.
User avatar
watching
 
Posts: 1997
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Daniel 9;27

Postby benny balerio on Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:41 pm

watching wrote:Hi Benny,

I still don't see how any of those definitions imply a previous starting point.

In fact, I don't see any reason why "continue" would, in and of itself, imply a previous starting point, within the context with which it was written in Revelation 13:5.

Revelation 13:5 (King James Version)

5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


From the way I'm understanding the text, he was given power to continue from the beginning of the 42 months to the end of the 42 months. There is no indication that he is given authority for any length of time other than the 42 months.

Now, if the text had said, he was given authority to continue for another 42 months, then I would most definitely agree that you have made your case. But, that is not what the text says. Here is what it says exactly:

Revelation 13:5 (1550 Stephanus New Testament)

5και εδοθη αυτω στομα λαλουν μεγαλα και βλασφημιας και εδοθη αυτω εξουσια ποιησαι μηνας τεσσαρακοντα δυο


και and εδοθη was given αυτω [unto] him στομα a mouth λαλουν speaking μεγαλα great [things]
και and βλασφημιας blasphemies και and εδοθη was given αυτω [unto] him εξουσια power ποιησαι to perform (full definition is given above) μηνας months τεσσαρακοντα forty δυο two

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=13&v=5&t=KJV#top

So, as far as I can see, you have not proven, by the use of the word "continue," (which may not have been the best word choice in terms of translation, to begin with), that he is given authority to do anything for any length of time other than the 42 months which are allotted to him, according to the text.

I cannot help you there then even though it is obvious to me that the definitions I gave describe a continuance.
But for you to not except this,..then it would seem to me that you would have to claim that the 21 judgements of revelation occur in 42 months.
Also you would have to claim a rebuilt temple and that sacrifices continued for 42 months.
I would find it hard to believe that sacrifices could even be observed at all considering that you are claiming that the A.O.D. begins whith the reign of the ac,...which you have to reveal how he rose into power or how did he come in peacably and destroy many thru peace.
Then you have to explain why the two witnesses ascend into heaven three and a half days after the Lord has already returned.
User avatar
benny balerio
 
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:00 am

Next

Return to Prophecy Debate Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests