Is there a rapture?

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Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:04 am

I don't know why I'm discussing or debating this verse.... I'm not certain I even believe in a rapture. I've not seen a more magnification of a belief based on scanty scriptural evidence..... well.... maybe one or two others. :wink: I really don't believe in interpreting anything much on the basis of one verse let alone one word.

Carry on believers.... :lol:
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:14 am

Inquiring minds want to know . . .

:grin:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby IamtheWalrus on Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:26 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: I really don't believe in interpreting anything much on the basis of one verse let alone one word.


I tend to agree with you, however I am guilty of the fact myself, but have corrected myself, numerous times.
I tend to lean towards the notion that all scripture is God-breathed, and with that being the case, His breath is elsewhere throughout the Bible to confirm what breath you are analyzing, so that you aren't misinterpreting the nature of His breath in the text you are reading.
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Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:14 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:I don't know why I'm discussing or debating this verse.... I'm not certain I even believe in a rapture. I've not seen a more magnification of a belief based on scanty scriptural evidence..... well.... maybe one or two others. :wink: I really don't believe in interpreting anything much on the basis of one verse let alone one word.

Carry on believers.... :lol:



That made me sit up and take notice...Why don't you believe for certain in a rapture? I think a verse that is often overlooked for the rapture is found in this verse Daniel 12:12:


Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1335 days.

(makes me have concern for those of those who are not waiting for it, and another thought on it-it's not at the end of the week, it's just over the midpoint) Think on those things.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:20 pm

Mttw633 wrote:That made me sit up and take notice...Why don't you believe for certain in a rapture? I think a verse that is often overlooked for the rapture is found in this verse Daniel 12:12:


Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1335 days.

(makes me have concern for those of those who are not waiting for it, and another thought on it-it's not at the end of the week, it's just over the midpoint) Think on those things.


I'm most assuredly waiting for the return of Jesus Christ, Mttw633, just not a "catching up..up...and away" return. But that's another topic, and frankly, one that wouldn't have enough scripture to use as a foundation imho, so it would end up back here.....debating one word.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:08 pm

Well, here's another verse for you to consider, what do you think it means to wait for 1335 days?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:31 pm

Mttw633 wrote:Well, here's another verse for you to consider, what do you think it means to wait for 1335 days?


I don't know, Mttw633, exactly why those who attain to 1335 days should be happy or blessed. Are you asking me because you think that verse indicates a "catching up" to heaven by believers?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:48 pm

Yes, I think it does. From the preceding verse it states 45 days prior the abomination occured and widespread persecution of the Jews and followers of Jesus are occuring. What do you think we should infer as being blessed by if this is the time frame we are looking at?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:51 pm

Mttw633 wrote:Yes, I think it does. From the preceding verse it states 45 days prior the abomination occured and widespread persecution of the Jews and followers of Jesus are occuring. What do you think we should infer as being blessed by if this is the time frame we are looking at?


As I said, Mttw633, I don't know. But what I do know is it says nothing about being "caught up" to heaven.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:07 pm

But it does say that in 1 Thess 4.

And it does say that before the judgments of God commence at the time when the angel warns about the mark, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." This looks like a stark contrast of the day 1335 blessing, agreed? Why the change? Because these folks missed that blessing. The judgments of God have come.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:14 pm

Mttw633 wrote:But it does say that in 1 Thess 4.

And it does say that before the judgments of God commence at the time when the angel warns about the mark, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." This looks like a stark contrast of the day 1335 blessing, agreed? Why the change? Because these folks missed that blessing. The judgments of God have come.


And....? We are not destined for wrath; is that where you're going? So we must not be here?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:08 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:And....? We are not destined for wrath; is that where you're going? So we must not be here?


I'll say the judgments of God are about to commence and the blessing for those who are present on earth has changed. So we can infer that this is post day 1335. Do you agree?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:27 pm

Mttw633 wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:I'll say the judgments of God are about to commence and the blessing for those who are present on earth has changed. So we can infer that this is post day 1335. Do you agree?


Yeah, sure....I guess. Where do you read the earth has changed in that verse?

Dan 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:46 pm

I didn't say that, I said the blessing (for those on the earth) has changed. I just wanted to clarify who the blessing was for. Don't let that throw you off. The blessing had changed. Why? Because for those whom waited and made the 1335 days has past. Now the mark comes and your blessed if you die in the Lord. Noted difference in blessing.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:09 pm

Mttw633 wrote:I didn't say that, I said the blessing (for those on the earth) has changed. I just wanted to clarify who the blessing was for.


Thanks for clarifying that, Mttw633. I see now. You're likely to see me as either very dense or very contrary, but I do not see that a blessing has "changed" in that scripture. It just says " Blessed (happy) are those who waits (tarries) and attains (reaches) to 1,335 days.

( Don't let that throw you off.


Too late.... :wink:

The blessing had changed.


Changed from what to what? Where does it say that, Mttw633? Are you adding that word?

Why? Because for those whom waited and made the 1,335 days has past.


So you're saying that just because some waited they made it? They didn't have to do anything to attain to the 1,335 except wait? And that's what makes them happy?

Now the mark comes and your blessed if you die in the Lord. Noted difference in blessing.


There's only 12 chapters in Daniel and we just quoted the second to last verse. Now where are we jumping to that talks about the mark?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:31 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:The blessing had changed.

Changed from what to what? Where does it say that, Mttw633? Are you adding that word?

Daniel 12
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Rev 14:9
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
"Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."

1. two blessings noted here, and we can denote the time frame:
a. day 1335 (45 days after abomination.)
b. warning to anyone who takes the mark, (after the AoD because we have a beast) and calls for endurance on behalf of the saints, and a blessing for those who die in the Lord from now on.

Waiting denotes those who are watching, correct. Jesus tells us many times to be awake, alert, watch. For those who were not watching, (I come like a thief) we can infer from Scripture, fall into the next category: blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. That denotes a time period as well.

Why is this so hard to accept?
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:52 pm

Mttw633 wrote:Why is this so hard to accept?


I told you that you'd either think I was dense or contrary. It's not a matter of acceptance. It's a matter of understanding.

So...you'll be happy to know I see your reasoning so far.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mttw633 on Wed Oct 01, 2008 8:38 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:So...you'll be happy to know I see your reasoning so far.


:banana: Yea. (I would never think of you as being dense. Adamant, maybe. :lol: )
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Fri Oct 03, 2008 10:50 pm

AbidinginHisWord. In the same way that baptism is a physical act that reports a spiritual truth, I believe that when the Lord Jesus calls us in resurrected bodies from earth into His presence in the clouds, we are experiencing the Lord Jesus' statement that He has caused us to leave our fallen earthly estate and to realize our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven. LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby BeTheMoon on Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:46 am

We know Jesus ascended to the Father (John 3:13). We know He's preparing a place for us in our Father's house (John 4:2).

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.



So how do we get there? I say we're raptured outta here! :grin:
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:35 am

lambslave wrote:AbidinginHisWord. In the same way that baptism is a physical act that reports a spiritual truth, I believe that when the Lord Jesus calls us in resurrected bodies from earth into His presence in the clouds, we are experiencing the Lord Jesus' statement that He has caused us to leave our fallen earthly estate and to realize our citizenship in the kingdom of heaven. LS


Hi lambslave,

Baptism is clearly mentioned in the Word many times as a physical act representing a spiritual truth:

administered by John
Matt_3:5-12; John_3:23; Act_13:24; Act_19:4;

Sanctioned by Christ's submission to it
Matt_3:13-15; Luk_3:21;

Adopted by Christ
John_3:22; John_4:1; John_4:2;

Appointed an ordinance of the Christian church
Matt_28:19; Matt_28:20; Mar_16:15; Mar_16:16;

To be administered in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Matt_28:19;

Water, the outward and visible sign in
Act_8:36; Act_10:47;

Regeneration, the inward and spiritual grace of
Joh_3:3; Joh_3:5; Joh_3:6; Rom_6:3; Rom_6:4; Rom_6:11;

Remission of sins, signified by
Act_2:38; Act_22:16;

Unity of the Church effected by
1Co_12:13; Gal_3:27; Gal_3:28;

Confession of sin necessary to
Matt_3:6;

Repentance necessary to
Act_2:38;

Faith necessary to
Act_8:37; Act_18:8;

There is but one
Eph_4:5;

Administered to Individuals
Act_8:38; Act_9:18;

Households
Act_16:15; 1Cor_1:16;

Only to professing believers
Act_2:38; Matt_3:6; Mar_16:16; Act_8:12; Act_8:37; Act_10:47; Act_10:48


Can you say the same about the rapture? That's what I'm looking for; clear scripture that proves this belief. Isn't that how believers discern the truth from the false....by looking a clear scriptures that are in harmony throughout scripture?
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mark F on Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:19 am

Abiding,

I see what you are saying, but I do not think that the fact of the
rapture is as obscure as the timing of it.

I think that it could be compared to creation, the percentage of Scripture
that tells us how the universe was created is quite small in comparison to
how it will end, yet there are still those who question the fact of it. Please
don't misunderstand my point, there is very little text which declares the how
of creation, but it is plain and simple and we are expected to take what God
has said about it and be content with that.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52;
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Paul declares here that you won't find this anywhere else, you need to
decide if what Paul writes is trustworthy and true. He has been entrusted
to reveal this to us, our Lord made allusions to it in His statement that after
the place that He is preparing for us is complete, He will return for us.

If you really think about it, the fact that the Church even exists is a mystery.

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,"


Romans 16:25
"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began."

1 Corinthians 2:7
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,"

1 Corinthians 15:51
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—"

Ephesians 1:9
"having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,"


Ephesians 3:3-4
"how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,"
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

Ephesians 3:8
[ Purpose of the Mystery ] "To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,"

Ephesians 3:9
"and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;"


Ephesians 6:19
"and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,"

Colossians 1:26
"the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."


Colossians 2:2
"that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,"
Colossians 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,


1 Timothy 3:9
"holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience."


1 Timothy 3:16
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory."


The Church began with a miracle hidden in a mystery,
it will finish with a miracle hidden in a mystery.

Many argue against the fact that the Church is found hidden in gaps in
OT prophesy, the words of Jesus Himself makes this point evident.

Luke 4:17-21;
"And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, “Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”


We know there is more from Isaiah 61, but there is a reason that He stopped
short of finishing the passage, an implied interval which we who are alive
now can recognise if we accept that God has not cast Israel aside, but for
this time He is calling out a people for a special purpose.

After the Church, God will again deal with the earth through
the Nation Israel, even a superficial reading of Revelation shows
it's Jewishness.

Romans 11:25
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Acts 15:14-18;
"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works."


This will take some thought and study, but I find this quite revealing as to the
implications of being in Christ.

Ephesians 5:30-32;
"For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

Colossians 1:27
"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Rev. 12:5-6;

"She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days."


I see an allusion to the rapture in the above passage, when we consider the
nature of our relationship to Christ, our postion in Him it's not difficult to
believe in a rapture.

I don't think it is a stretch to put these things together,

1 Cor. 2:13
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches
but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:32 am

Hi Mark F

Thanks for your post. Here are my observations:

I see what you are saying, but I do not think that the fact of the
rapture is as obscure as the timing of it.


We needn't discuss the timing of the rapture until we can establish that there is one, right?

I think that it could be compared to creation, the percentage of Scripture
that tells us how the universe was created is quite small in comparison to
how it will end, yet there are still those who question the fact of it. Please
don't misunderstand my point, there is very little text which declares the how
of creation, but it is plain and simple and we are expected to take what God
has said about it and be content with that.


Good point! Technically there are two full chapters devoted to recording the creation of the universe. In contrast, I see believers using only one verse to establish the belief in a rapture. I find that method contradicting the rules of good hermeneutics. I'm trying to follow the reasoning that supports a rapture, but have more doubts than assurances.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52;
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Paul declares here that you won't find this anywhere else, you need to
decide if what Paul writes is trustworthy and true. He has been entrusted
to reveal this to us, our Lord made allusions to it in His statement that after
the place that He is preparing for us is complete, He will return for us.


Of course I believe that what Paul writes is trustworthy and true. And what Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 is that we will be changed. The reason we will be changed from the "natural" into the "spiritual" is that death is the last thing that Christ will put under subjection to Him. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. So at the last trumpet, Paul is confirming that the death of believers will not happen to their natural body; that's the victory Christ has over death. But this speaks only to being changed; not raptured.

If you really think about it, the fact that the Church even exists is a mystery.

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables,"


Romans 16:25
"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began."

1 Corinthians 2:7
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,"

1 Corinthians 15:51
"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—"

Ephesians 1:9
"having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,"


Ephesians 3:3-4
"how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already,"
by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ),

Ephesians 3:8
[ Purpose of the Mystery ] "To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,"

Ephesians 3:9
"and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;"


Ephesians 6:19
"and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel,"

Colossians 1:26
"the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."


Colossians 2:2
"that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ,"
Colossians 4:3
meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains,


1 Timothy 3:9
"holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience."


1 Timothy 3:16
"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory."


The Church began with a miracle hidden in a mystery,
it will finish with a miracle hidden in a mystery.


When Paul speaks of "mysteries." he is referencing OT prophecies that were not understoood until now.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations.....Rom 16:25-26


Many argue against the fact that the Church is found hidden in gaps in
OT prophesy, the words of Jesus Himself makes this point evident.

Luke 4:17-21;
"And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
18 " The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

We know there is more from Isaiah 61, but there is a reason that He stopped
short of finishing the passage, an implied interval which we who are alive
now can recognise if we accept that God has not cast Israel aside, but for
this time He is calling out a people for a special purpose.

After the Church, God will again deal with the earth through
the Nation Israel, even a superficial reading of Revelation shows
it's Jewishness.


I have no problem with any of this. But these verses do not speak of a rapture mystery. They don't speak of a mystery at all; but rather prophetic fulfillment. They were a mystery to those in the OT, but now have been revealed in the NT.

Romans 11:25
"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

Acts 15:14-18;
"Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
16 ‘ After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the LORD who does all these things.'

18 "Known to God from eternity are all His works."


Again, Mark F, with all due respect, I do not see these verses speaking about a rapture. When Paul says "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery," it's because he is making it clear to them. He explains line upon line and precept upon precept how this "mystery" can become a "non-mystery." in other words, he assures his listeners that this truth is no longer a mystery.

This will take some thought and study, but I find this quite revealing as to the
implications of being in Christ.

Ephesians 5:30-32;
"For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."


I have given careful thought and study to Ephesians 5:30-32. Since Paul is equating marriage to the "mystery" of Christ and the Church, the revelation we can take away from this comparison is this: Christ (the man) will leave his Father (father and mother) to be joined to His bride (his wife) and the two shall become one. His Father is in Heaven and Jesus leaves Him to come to earth to be joined in marriage to His bride.

Revelation makes it clear imho, that when Jesus leaves His father to be joined to His bride, the dwelling place is a new earth.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them..... Rev 21:1-3

Rev. 12:5-6;

"She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days."


I see an allusion to the rapture in the above passage, when we consider the
nature of our relationship to Christ, our postion in Him it's not difficult to
believe in a rapture.

But I think you'll agree that we can't base a belief in a rapture on an "allusion" of one or two verses, can we?

I don't think it is a stretch to put these things together,

1 Cor. 2:13
"These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches
but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual."


I guess I'll have to admit that I do see it as a stretch or I wouldn't be asking for clear scriptural support for a rapture. I've heard there are somewhere near 340,000 verses (not sure of that number) so I think you can prove almost anything by lining up scriptures that "allude" to a doctrine rather than clearly referencing them throughout scripture.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:50 am

AbidingInHisWord, How much clearer could Rev 11:12 be? This is the way the Lord comes and calls for His servants.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mark F on Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:47 am

Rev. 11:12;

"And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."

What I see here is exactly as this,

Rev 4:1;

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

These if taken literally are two different events.

I say John is representative of the Church, you say these two witnesses are.
Paul also saw heaven and was caught up and he and John both revealed this
strange thing as the rapture. Paul also was one of three who saw the risen Lord,
Steven also did.

I don't see how you determine when to take an allegory and see
a literal, or a literal and see and allegory.

Rev 4:1 has at least two very clear indicators that this is the rapture
with the open door in heaven and the voice of a trumpet.

It may be a stretch for some, but Rev. 11:12 is at very best a stretch..
no insult intended BTW.
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Find a seven year covenant Jesus makes with anybody plainly stated in Scripture.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:46 am

I see a time progression shown here:

Is 24 The Lord’s Destruction of the Earth (Judgments begin...Damascus ? and praise arises)
cities left in ruins

Is 25,26 Praise to the Lord (He will revive us)
people return to the Lord and walk in way of His laws while judgment continues


Isaiah 26
1. A Song of Praise
1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah:
We have a strong city;
God makes salvation
its walls and ramparts.
2 Open the gates
that the righteous nation may enter,
the nation that keeps faith.
3 You will keep in perfect peace
him whose mind is steadfast,
because he trusts in you.
4 Trust in the LORD forever,
for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
5 He humbles those who dwell on high,
he lays the lofty city low;
he levels it to the ground
and casts it down to the dust.
6 Feet trample it down—
the feet of the oppressed,
the footsteps of the poor.
7 The path of the righteous is level;
O upright One, you make the way of the righteous smooth.
8 Yes, LORD, walking in the way of your laws, [a]
we wait for you;
your name and renown
are the desire of our hearts.
9 My soul yearns for you in the night; in the morning my spirit longs for you.
When your judgments come upon the earth,
the people of the world learn righteousness.
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
11 O LORD, your hand is lifted high,
but they do not see it.
Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame;
let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them.
12 LORD, you establish peace for us;
all that we have accomplished you have done for us.
13 O LORD, our God, other lords besides you have ruled over us,
but your name alone do we honor.
14 They are now dead, they live no more;
those departed spirits do not rise.
You punished them and brought them to ruin;
you wiped out all memory of them.
15 You have enlarged the nation, O LORD;
you have enlarged the nation.
You have gained glory for yourself;
you have extended all the borders of the land.
16 LORD, they came to you in their distress;
when you disciplined them,
they could barely whisper a prayer. [b]
17 As a woman with child and about to give birth [TRIBULATION]
writhes and cries out in her pain,
so were we in your presence, O LORD.
18 We were with child, we writhed in pain,
but we gave birth to wind.
We have not brought salvation to the earth;
we have not given birth to people of the world.
19 But your dead will live; [RESURRECTION (& also rapture from1 Thess 4)]
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms [Matthew 24:26, Rev 12:6]and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling [when He returns in Rev 19]
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed upon her;
she will conceal her slain no longer.
Last edited by Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:01 am

Mark F et al, In Rev 4 John is not indentified by any actual statements in the text as anyone but John. And he tells us there, as in other passages, how he came to be where he was, he said, "I was in the Spirit." however, in Rev 11, the text does tell us that the two witnessess are the two churches. So, there is nothing subjective going on, or I would be the first to cry foul. And I personally am delighted to see anyone questioning the method by which we discover meaning in the Revelation. If its just a book wherre we all sit around and say, "well, I think this means that..." without reference to our source, rule or authority then we have the mess we have today. LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:25 am

Mttw633 wrote: 19 But your dead will live; [RESURRECTION (& also rapture from1 Thess 4)]
their bodies will rise.
You who dwell in the dust,
wake up and shout for joy.
Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms [Matthew 24:26, Rev 12:6]and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.


Your confirmations of Isa 26, especially under verse 20 is in error. Your second confirmation using Rev 12:6 is however, correct, but your first in is deep error my friend.
We cannot attribute this verse:
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.


to be associated with verse 20. This is talking of false Christ, and the allusion that some secret revelation is in the desert or in secret chambers.

Plus verse 19 is only referring to the first part of the first resurrection, not the harpazo that is scripted in verse 17 of 1 Thess 4.
It is however referring to verse 16, but in Revelation, we are given a more detailed account of the events in and between these two events noted in 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:57 pm

Mark F wrote:Rev. 11:12;

"And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."


lambslave and Mark F,

These two witnesses, whoever they are, are taken bodily up to heaven, are they not? Verse 11 indicates they were.

Rev 11:11 But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them.


Believers are "changed" in the twinkling of an eye; not taken up to heaven bodily.

What I see here is exactly as this,

Rev 4:1;

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

These if taken literally are two different events.

Rev 4:1 has at least two very clear indicators that this is the rapture
with the open door in heaven and the voice of a trumpet.

It may be a stretch for some, but Rev. 11:12 is at very best a stretch..
no insult intended BTW.


I don't see anything in this verse or the revelation John was about to see that implies this represents a rapture of all believers. God (who is Spirit) was going to reveal spiritual things to John and those spiritual revelations can only be seen and comprehended by the spirit, not by flesh and blood. Following the spiritual revelation of heavenly things, John was once again in his flesh and blood body. To read more into this verse is very much wishful thinking, stretching, and adding to scripture imo.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:37 pm

(In response to Iamthewalrus):
That sounds like to me that it is a time period where they are in the desert for 1260 days. And they are being tempted to come out of that place of protection, but they are admonished to not believe what they're hearing.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:11 pm

And, as I was discussing with Abiding just above, I believe Daniel 12:12 means the resurrection of the dead and the rapture; because it fits the timing (day 1335). The abomination occurs (day 1290), people in Judea flee to the place of protection for 1260 days, in the meantime the ac comes after followers of Christ. We then receive our 'blessing' for those who are waiting. The angel then gives the warning about the mark of the beast, and the alternate blessing, 'blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on.' Rev 14:13. There is a blessing in there at day 1335 and we need to acknowledge that.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:26 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote: His Father is in Heaven and Jesus leaves Him to come to earth to be joined in marriage to His bride.

Revelation makes it clear imho, that when Jesus leaves His father to be joined to His bride, the dwelling place is a new earth.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them..... Rev 21:1-3


The new heaven and new earth does not happen until the 1000 years are ended, correct? So Jesus does not leave the Father, and join His bride to go to the new earth. After the 1000 years, Satan gets released gets thrown in the lake of sulfur, and dead are judged. Then the new heaven and new earth come, and Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He (God) will live with them. Jesus and God on the new earth together at that time.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mrs. B on Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:47 pm

Jesus said.....

Matt. 24:27......For as the Lightning cometh out of the East...and shineth even unto the west;
so shall also the coming of the Son of men be....

28....For Wheresoever the Carcase is....there will the EAGLES be Gathered together...

29...Immediately....after the Tribulation of those days.....

30....And Then shall appear the Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven:
and they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with Power and Great Glory.

31....And He shall Send His angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET...
And they shall gather together His Elect from the Four winds, from one end of heaven to the other...

Then in Luke....Jesus says...

Luke 17:26....And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man...

27....The did eat....they drank...they married wives, they were given in marriage...until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all...

28....Like wise also as it was in the days of Lot:

29...But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all..
Even thus shall it be in the days when the S on of man is Revealed...

33...Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it;
and whosoever shalll lose his life shall preserve it....

34...I TELL YOU, IN THAT NIGHT THERE SHALL BE TWO MEN IN ONE BED;
The one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35...Two women...on taken and the other left..

36....Two men in the field; one taken the other left..

37.....And they answered and said unto Him, WHERE Lord?
AND He said unto them....
WHEREVER THE BODY IS, THITHER WILL THE EAGLES BE GATHERED TOGETHER....



IN MATT....HE says Carcases is....In Luke he says Body....thither will The EAGLES be Gathered...

Then In Revelation 12:14.....And to the Woman were given TWE WINGS OF A GREAT EAGLE,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is NOURISHED for a Time, and Times and Half a Time, from the face of the Serpent...

17....And the Dragon was Wroth with the Woman, and went to Make War with the REMNANT of her Seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ....

The....Rev. 13:5...(the beast)...And there was given unto Him A Mouth speaking Great things and Blasphemies; and Power was given unto Him to .....CONTINUE...FORTY AND TWO MONTHS....

7.....And it was given unto him to make war with the Saints, and to overcome them:
and power was given him over all kindreds, and Tongues, and Nations...

8....And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him,
Whose names are not written in the book of Life of the Lamb slain from the Founmdation of the World......


What I noticed....The Wings of Eagles...
For wheresoever the carcase....or body is, there will the Eagles be Gathered Together....
Jesus said....Pray that you be counted Worthy to Escape.....
Could there be a body of believers that will be counted worthy to escape the Tribulation of those days......

Matt. 24:44...Therefore be ye also ready:
for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man cometh...

or 42....Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come...
43....But know this , that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up...

45...Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler ovr his household, to give THEM MEAT IN DUES SEASON?

Matt. 25:5....WHILE THE BRIDEGROOM TARRIED, THEY ALL SLUMBERED AND SLEPT.....

I noticed this.....

Rev. 10:7.....But in the Days of the VOICE of the Seventh Angel...
When He SHALL BEGIN TO SOUND...The Mystery of God should be finished...
as He hath declared to His Servants the Prophets....
notice....When he shall begin to Sound...then Rev. 11:15....And the Seventh Angel Sounded;
there is a time from when he begin to sound and when he sounds...

Jesus said...While the Bridegroom TARRIED...they all slumbered and slept

in Rev. 10:10...and I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up;
and it was in my mouth sweet as honey:
and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

11...And he said unto me, Thou Must Prophesy again Before many People, an Nations, and Tongues, and Kings...

then in Ezek 3:3.....And he said unto me....Son of Man cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this Roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.

4....And he said unto me, Son of man, go , get thee unto the House of Israel, and Speak with My Words unto them....
7....But the House of Israel will not hearken unto thee;
for they will not hearken unto me;
for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardheated...

Any one have any commits?

Is this again...the short work that God does with Israel?

bb
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:49 pm

Abiding, Mark F, et. al., When John is called into the throne room there are no textual indicators to see him as the church. A hypothesis is not a good basis for evaluating symbols. John both goes to, and leaves heaven. Are we to propose that the church leaves heaven as John leaves heaven? And concerning the reference earlier about being changed, taken from I Cor 15:52, compared and found dirrerent from the rapture of the two witnesses in Rev 11:12--there is no compelling reason to say that these two passages detail two different kind of events. Were the witnesses of Rev 11:12 NOT changed? Who said so? Are those described in I Cor 15:52 not raptured? Who said so? I believe in the ingathering of the whole church (Rev 11:12 followed by Rev 14:14-16) shortly before the bowls are poured out. This will happen at the end of a 3 1/2 year period of time called the great tribulation. There is no future 7 year period of tribulation. LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:35 pm

lambslave wrote:I believe in the ingathering of the whole church (Rev 11:12 followed by Rev 14:14-16) shortly before the bowls are poured out. This will happen at the end of a 3 1/2 year period of time called the great tribulation. There is no future 7 year period of tribulation. LS


Where do you get your timing of the ingathering at the end of the 3/1 yr time of the gt? I agree, there is no future seven year period of tribulation, but there is a seven year period, otherwise known as Daniel's 70th week. And I just need to bring up another point, that reminds me of that verse : Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. There will not be one day cut short out of Daniel's 70th week or God would be a liar. The only cutting short will be for the elect's sake; ie. rapture.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:46 pm

Mttw633, please look at my work on Daniel 9:24-27. Then we'll resume. www.expressright.com/weeks.aspx
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:20 pm

I started to read your work, lambslave but I didn't finish it because I found something. The first time Jesus came He fulfilled Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Shavuot. The next advent He will fulfill in order: Rosh Hashanah, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles. I find that the last seven years will start with Rosh Hashanah 'head of the year'- the start to the last seven, and end on the Day of Atonement. From the start RH to the AoD (day 1290) it lands on Passover. From that day +1250 lands on Day of Atonement. The end of the 70th week. (and Tabernacles when he dwells with us.) That time period is seven years to the day, so I don't need to go any further in your 70 weeks view because we need a full seven years for Jesus to fulfill all of the feasts. (Matthew 5:17-18, Col 2:16-17)

My head is whirling with numbers and I'm trying to be present for my family as well, so I'm going to study later. But I found this for some kind of clarity, I don't know yet if it will hurt or help. http://www.noothergospel.com/Daniel.html



The Mystery of Sevens In Perspective It is important to understand that the holy temple and Jerusalem had already been destroyed by the Babylonians, and still lay in ruins at the time Daniel was given this insight indicating the temple/city would be rebuilt before the coming of the Anointed One. Daniel also learns the rebuilt temple/city would again be destroyed shortly after the Anointed One visited Jerusalem and was "cut off." Gabriel goes on to explain the precice time of messiah's visitation indicating the Anointed One would appear sixty-nine sevens from the issuing of a decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. Interestingly, the decree to rebuild the city was issued by the Persian King Artexerxes on April/Nissan 30 445 B.C (Nehemiah 2:8), and well after Daniel died. But, what is the relationship between this decree and the mystery of sevens passed on by the angel Gabriel?

Mystery of Sevens Time Table Mel Miller shows how God had it in mind for cycles of seven to be calculated using 365 day years, and 360 day years together in order to show messianic fulfillment in accordance with the solar calendar (Artexerxes decree) and Biblical calendar of special days instituted by God, e.g. Passover, Unleavened Bread, and First Fruits. This is important as Passover only fell on Friday once every seven years(84 months), and yet the prophesy had to be fulfilled by the 483rd aniversary of Artexerxe's decree (69 x 7). As you can see 483(69 X 7) minus 445(Decree Issue Date) equals 39; not 32 AD. Read on.

There are 2536.75 solar days per seven year cycle (365.25 solar days X 7 years), or 173,859 days (The completion of 68 seven-year cycles X 2536.7 solar days). This is signifigant because 173,859 days from Artexerxes' decree on Nisan/April 30, 445 B.C. is Nisan/April 9, 32 AD., which is the very day Mesiah Yeshua (Jesus) rode into Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9). This is twenty-one days shy of the sixty-ninth seven from the anniversy date of Artexexes decree issued April/Nissah 30, 445 B.C. Thus, the solar days are used within the framework of Biblical cycles to pinpoint the time "The Anointed One Comes" and is "cut off." On the other hand, there are 2,520 Biblical days per seven year cycle (360 X 7 years), or 173,880 days (69 seven-year cycles X 2,520 Biblical days). This is signifigant because 173,880 days from Artexerxes decree to rebuild Jerusalem issued Nisan/April 30, 445 B.C. is Nisan/April 30, 32 AD, which is the 483rd aniversary date as described to Daniel by the angel gabriel (sixty-nine sevens). In other words, the missing seven (39-32 AD) is reconcilled using 360 day years within the Biblical prophetic framework of sixty-nine sevens. Thus, God's foreordained word was not only given in view of three accounts, but it came to pass, and can be confirmed on three accounts; the feast cycle including their symbolic signifigance, the aniversary of the Artexerxes' decree itself, and to the precise day! Clearly, Yeshua (Jesus) fulfilled all in accordance with the scriptures as history affirms.

Daniel's Mystery of Sevens & Historical Context After Daniel died the Persians conquered the Babylonians, and the Jews in captivity were eventually allowed to return to Jerusalem at different times. It was King Cyrus of Persia that issued a degree allowing Zerubabul (Ezra) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple (completed 516 B.C), and King Artexerxes that later issued the fortold decree allowing Nehemiah to rebuild the city of Jerusalem (445 B.C.). Subsequently, Yeshua "The Anointed One" appeared and was indeed "cut off" on the precise day foreordained in order to "finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophesy and to anoint the most holy" (Dan 9:24; Cf. Isaiah 53). Neither King Agrippa or Menachem Ben Amiel of this era qualified as messiah; nor did they "finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness." However, Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) was crucified on the eve of passover, Nisan/April 14, AD 32; the 483rd passover, and twenty-one days prior to the 483rd, sixty-ninth seven, or aniversary date of Artexerxes' decree. No wonder the Jewish apostle of Yeshua remarked, "You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungoldly" (Romans 5:6). Moreover, the holy temple and city was again destroyed in 70 A.D. by General Titus and his roman legions after the Messiah's visitation in accordance with Daniel's prophecies (Dan 9:26).

Jesus Qualifies Daniel's Mystery of Sevens During Jesus' eartly ministry he referred to Daniel's prophesy, and made the connection with the gospel of the kingdom (cf. Isaiah 40-60). After arriving in Jerusalem at the foreordained time as described in Daniel's book (Mark 11:1-11; Luke 19:28-44), Jesus tells his disciples that he would be "cut off" in advance as Daniel and Isaiah described centuries before (Matthew 20:17-19; Mark 8:31-33; Luke 18:31-33; cf Isaiah 53). It is noteworthy Jesus attributes the title "Son of Man" to himself in these texts (cf Dan 7:13; 8:15-17). Moreover, Jesus explains the temple that had already been rebuilt by the time of Jesus' ministry would indeed again be destroyed in accordance with the pre/post exilic prophets, and Jesus began to explain the end of the current age as well as the end time when Jesus would return never again to be "cut off." This is ecspecially important to those not recognising Messiah Yeshua's (Jesus) messianic visitation fullfilling the the suffering servant passages in AD 32. While many are rightfully perceiving God's hand in bringing Jews dispersed throughout the world back to the land of promise today, many are wrongfully looking forward to another messiah after the temple that was destroyed by Titus in AD 70 is rebuilt and its institutions reinstated in our day! (Cf. Daniel 12:11). In other words, many will embrace a false messiah who is surrounded by political turmoil but presents himself, and/or perceived to be fulfilling the messianic suffering servant passages in our day, which is compatable with the "Rule of God perfected" framework held by those who perceive the coming Messiah fulfilling the suffering servant passages after the messiah comes as a triumphant world king! (cf. Mechilta, p. 75; Yalkut, Vol 2, p. 14a last line). Jesus makes it clear that his second coming will not only meet, but exceed the first century messianic expectations. Having fulfilled Isaiah 61:1-2a as a suffering servant on Nisan/April 14, AD 32, Jesus will fulfill Isaiah 61:2b in his messianic role on "the day of vengence" with his second coming. Not only will his second coming be clear to all, but "They will look on the one they pierced and mourn for him as one mourns for and only child" (Zechariah 12:10ff). Yeshua/Jesus cited Daniel three times as recorded in the New Testament. Consider Messiah Jesus' insights on Daniel's prophecies.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:49 pm

lambslave wrote:Abiding, Mark F, et. al., When John is called into the throne room there are no textual indicators to see him as the church. A hypothesis is not a good basis for evaluating symbols. John both goes to, and leaves heaven. Are we to propose that the church leaves heaven as John leaves heaven?


I agree with you on this, lambslave, as my post above indicates.

And concerning the reference earlier about being changed, taken from I Cor 15:52, compared and found dirrerent from the rapture of the two witnesses in Rev 11:12--there is no compelling reason to say that these two passages detail two different kind of events. Were the witnesses of Rev 11:12 NOT changed? Who said so?


The two witnesses may have been changed, but we are not specifically told so as we are in 1 Cor. 15:52. We know that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; but verse 11 clearly states that they came back to life physically and stood on their feet. Then they went up to heaven as their enemies watched that event. They had to be assumed bodily for their enemies to see this transpiring. Granted, a changed could have been affected following that, but we are not told so.

Are those described in I Cor 15:52 not raptured? Who said so?


Well, we aren't told that they were raptured. We are just told their were "changed."

I believe in the ingathering of the whole church (Rev 11:12 followed by Rev 14:14-16) shortly before the bowls are poured out. This will happen at the end of a 3 1/2 year period of time called the great tribulation. There is no future 7 year period of tribulation. LS


I may agree with you if you define what you mean by "ingathering" but not on the basis of Rev. 11:12 since as I see it, those two witnessess were taken "bodily", but 1 Cor. 15 says believers are "changed" (from the natural to the spiritual.) And 1 Cor. 15 does not say where believers go following the "change."
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby jgilberAZ on Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:50 pm

Jesus fulfilled the spring feast in order in one year. He will most likely fulfill the fall feasts in the same way. There is no biblical justification for inserting a 7 year gap between the feast of trumpets and the day of atonement.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:03 pm

Abiding, You wrote,

"I may agree with you if you define what you mean by "ingathering" but not on the basis of Rev. 11:12 since as I see it, those two witnessess were taken "bodily", but 1 Cor. 15 says believers are "changed" (from the natural to the spiritual.) And 1 Cor. 15 does not say where believers go following the "change.""

LS---I get ingathering from Matt 24:31, where we see angels gathering saints ...from one end of the sky to the other."

My answer is--
Look at Paul's statement in Phil 3:20-21
"For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself."

We know what the body of His glory was like because He appeared to many in His rersurrected body. He ate with them John 21:12-15, He entered a room that was closed wthout going through the door John 20:19, He was touched by them, John 20:27-29; Luke 24:39. 1 Cor 15:44 When raised, we have a body, described as a spiritual body. Spirits are NOT refered to as "raised"OR "resurrected." That is a term reserved for reference to dead bodies.Taken together with his statement of Luke 24:39, "spiritual body" doen not mean "spirit." Jesus said so. "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." So there is no need to regard what you see in Rev 11:12 as a different kind of thing than I Cor 15:52. LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby crmann on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:51 am

Let me see if I can put some light on this discussion of a pre-trib rapture.... Just a few thoughts...

From the Old Timer....

The Book of Revelation was written to the seven churches... that is... the entire book. Why would the churches be told all the things occurring that are to come if they weren’t going to be on earth when they were happening...

We are told in Luke 21:25-26...
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The powers of heaven have not yet been shaken, yet we know Our Redemption draweth nigh,.... or draweth near.... We know it’s getting closer.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

How many times are we told tha he who endures until the end will be saved.

Those who desperately want to be raptured out of this earth to escape the coming tribulation, insist that the teaching of a pre-trib rapture is taught in the scriptures, though the mystery is not distinctly revealed.

The spirit of the child of God will be more than willing to give his life for the cause of Christ.... to be a witness (martyr) for Christ.... The desire of the flesh is to escape tribulation, to be removed from the time of trouble and tribulation.

The desperate yearning for this escaping tribulation, leads to looking for its teaching behind many of those scriptures which so clearly teach the catching up of the saints at the coming of Christ as King of kings, in his power and glory.

It is those days, after the tribulation, when Christ will return.

See Mark 13:24-27

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

There are only two resurrections of the of mankind.... the one for the dead in Christ and the one for those dead who will be resurrected at the end of the thousand years.

We are also told that blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:4-7
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. 7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison.

As there will be no pre-trib rapture, as there will be no pre-trib resurrection of the dead in Christ. We have been told that those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep in First Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

At least three passages of scripture tell us Christ must remain in heaven until certain events take place.

“Hosea 5:15 tells us that Christ returns when the Jewish remnant seeking refuge in Edom pleads for Him to come rescue them.”

I will return again to My place Till they [the Nation Israel] acknowledge their offense.  Then they will seek My face; In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me. Hosea 5:15

Is this not referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 23:37-39
37 ”O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

And two more scripture verses to go along with Hosea 5:15...

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 

Psalms 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Three events:
1) Till Israel says, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

2) Until the times of restitution of all things, and

3) Until God the Father makes Christ’s enemies his footstool.

I’m reading a book by T. B. Baines, written in 1875. He uses 448 pages trying to prove the pre-trib rapture. He continually uses indirect reasoning trying to prove and explain his point.

God’s Word is always direct.... When we have to go looking for scripture to prove a belief, then we can be sure it’s not in the Word.

Rather, we read the Word and understand what it says, now what we hope it says.

We, as gentiles, inherit the promises given Israel by God.... The promise of Christ’s second coming was to the Israel, not to the gentiles.

Consider Hebrews 6:9-20
9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of F27 love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. 13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, "Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you." F28 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. 19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

Yet the Gentiles continue to forget this. The gentile churches continue to worship God their own way rather than God’s way.. as Cain did with his offering of fruits, with which God was not pleased. The gentile churches have lost their way... they have forgotten the feasts of the Lord of Leviticus chapter 23.

They do not understand that the Feasts of the Lord are appointed Times... Of the seven feasts..... It is quite likely the Lord will return during the Feast of Trumpets....
     
The Feast of Trumpets occurs on the first day of the Hebrew month, Tishri. It would occur at the new moon. Only the slightest crescent would be visible. However, clouds could obscure the moon, and witnesses were required. Watchfulness was a critical ingredient of this feast. The rabbis later added a second day to this feast to make sure they didn't miss it. This need for watchfulness and preparedness in connection with the Feast of Trumpets is echoed and reechoed throughout the New Testament in connection with the Lord's coming:
"Watch, therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." (Matthew 24:42).

"Therefore, let us not sleep, as do others, but let us watch and be sober-minded." I Thessalonians 5:6

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ" (II Timothy 2:13).

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation"" (Hebrews 9:28).

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, in which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless, we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, in which dwelleth righeousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless" (II Peter 3:11-14).

There are no two second comings, one secret and one visible...
Christ spoke of only one.

Acts 1:9-10
9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Zechariah 14:4
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

As Christ left from the mount of Olives, He will return to the mount of Olives.

Blessings,

The Old Timer

ps... If this gets posted, it will have been the sixth time I've tried to get it to post.... this is why you don't see me much here at FP.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:08 am

crmann, thanks for your comments.I agree with most of of them. LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby savedbygrace on Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:10 pm

Mttw633 wrote:
lambslave wrote:I believe in the ingathering of the whole church (Rev 11:12 followed by Rev 14:14-16) shortly before the bowls are poured out. This will happen at the end of a 3 1/2 year period of time called the great tribulation. There is no future 7 year period of tribulation. LS


Where do you get your timing of the ingathering at the end of the 3/1 yr time of the gt? I agree, there is no future seven year period of tribulation, but there is a seven year period, otherwise known as Daniel's 70th week. And I just need to bring up another point, that reminds me of that verse : Matthew 24:22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. There will not be one day cut short out of Daniel's 70th week or God would be a liar. The only cutting short will be for the elect's sake; ie. rapture.


Ahh, so then, the 'elect' you are referring to are Christians. Then these must be in the tribulation if they are to be raptured out of it, in order for those days to be cut short. That means they will not be raptured prior to the tribulation. If those days are to be cut short, for the elect's sake, as you stated, then they would have to be in the midst of it, rather than raptured prior to it. I like the conclusions you are drawing here...

SBG
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby savedbygrace on Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:13 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:Jesus fulfilled the spring feast in order in one year. He will most likely fulfill the fall feasts in the same way. There is no biblical justification for inserting a 7 year gap between the feast of trumpets and the day of atonement.


I second that statement.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby lambslave on Sun Oct 05, 2008 1:36 pm

SavedByGrace--Sounds like I communicated and you understood the same things. AMEN LS
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Loop on Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:06 pm

crmann, VERY clear, thank you ...

Been missing seeing you posting...
Psalms 91
1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Mttw633 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:14 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:Jesus fulfilled the spring feast in order in one year. He will most likely fulfill the fall feasts in the same way. There is no biblical justification for inserting a 7 year gap between the feast of trumpets and the day of atonement.


There is biblical justification. Why do we have the AoD on day 1290? Why are we blessed if we wait and make day 1335? This is proof that it will take longer than 3 1/2 years because those number of days are longer than that 3 1/2 years.

savedbygrace wrote:Ahh, so then, the 'elect' you are referring to are Christians. Then these must be in the tribulation if they are to be raptured out of it, in order for those days to be cut short. That means they will not be raptured prior to the tribulation. If those days are to be cut short, for the elect's sake, as you stated, then they would have to be in the midst of it, rather than raptured prior to it. I like the conclusions you are drawing here...


Yes! And he makes the assertion-"see, I have told you ahead of time."
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:38 pm

If we're digressing to the timing of the rapture rather than "is there a rapture?," I'll have to split this thread once again.....
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby crmann on Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:43 pm

So, Is there a rapture?

Blessings,

The Old Timer
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Re: Is there a rapture?

Postby savedbygrace on Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:19 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:If we're digressing to the timing of the rapture rather than "is there a rapture?," I'll have to split this thread once again.....

:lol:
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