Only a few more weeks until the rapture

[mark s]

I agree with you 1000% - the issue for the unsaved is their sin, and being reconciled to God. When unbelievers ask me questions about the end times, I go straight to Jesus' soon return, that He will judge the world, and everyone in it. That's what the unbeliever needs to get straight, IMO. Jesus is coming to judge sin, and we need to get our sin dealt with.

But I caution against taking a pragmatic view of Scriptural interpretation.

What I mean is, I think there is an inherent danger in choosing a certain interpretation because it seems less risky to me. I should always simply stick with what I believe Scripture teaches without trying to determine if this is a "good" doctrine, or a "safe" doctrine. If I believe Scripture teaches pre-trib rapture, then I also believe that is what I should teach. Now, this doesn't mean that this has to be my sole teaching, or that its appropriate for every circumstance. So we have to use wisdom as well.

But let's say I don't know between pre-trib and pre-wrath. I shouldn't side with pre-wrath because I think its the "safer" doctrine. If its not correct, neither is it "safe".

A "safe" doctrine is the true one, because its true, not because I happen to think its "safe". My understanding of God's design might not take everything into account. We could say that "pre-trib is dangerous, because what if its wrong?" I'd reply that the wrong doctrine is dangerous, whatever it is. I don't think there is a "better" or "worse" error, error is simply error.

When we introduce our individual perspectives of the ramifications of believing a particular doctrine as a criteria for whether to hold to that particular doctrine or not, we've left the purity of "does the Bible say it?", for "does it have a good result in my eyes".

So this is my concern, and what I warn against. We should always seek to simply know what the Bible says, and let the chips fall where they may, rather then try to anticipate where the chips might fall, to decide whether the Bible should say that or not.

I'm not saying that this is what you do, and I expect that its not.

[Pretzelogical]

Man, that Mark is a wise one! Glad to have ya watching out for me, Bro! AGAIN! DO you have a red tag on me to see what I am up to in these threads?


I don't want to be stumbling around anymore than is necessary, and I sure don't want anyone else falling into a pit right behind me! I appreciate the words of encouragement from all of you lovers of truth! It means so much to not be the only *freak* who is interested in these things! We are so blessed to live in the puter age! When it is gone/filtered/persecuted, that would be a huge sign of the end to me! ...or else just hopeful that life would not go longer than three years without the insight of this forum.
Rambling again...

[Mark F]

Savedbygrace,

I think of the Israelites in Egypt and that God said He would be with Moses, the wording in the verse I used could be questioned, but any verse could be questioned for that matter. But those speak of being kept from, God said He would be with Moses, I see a difference.


The Bible is a witness, how's it go? First the physical, then the spiritual.

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”


Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,



I did not mean all doctrines are built on three texts in agreement, but in comparison to one verse, thats more what I was getting at. Three is credible, supportable where one is not wise.

Antway, gotta run for now, look in again later.

[lookup]

This has been a real eye opening and heart opening thread and I thank you all. I would like to add something but the potatoes need to be turned and Maggie needs some help with the yard. Love and best wises to you all and most importantly keep looking up I think I hear the chariots rolling in the clouds, nope that was just Maggie with the wheelbarrow of straw and rabbit manure.

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[lookup]

GIVE HIM NO REST

"I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they shall
never hold their peace day or night. You who make mention of
the LORD, do not keep silent, and give Him no rest till He
establishes and till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth."
(Isaiah 62:6-7)

The ending chapters of the great Book of Isaiah are filled with
wonderful and amazing promises to the people of God, in particular
to the people of Judah to whom Isaiah first spoke. In the earlier
portions of Isaiah, the prophet warned them of the coming invasion
and devastation at the hands of the Babylonians. Yet Isaiah, as a
true prophet of the Lord, could not give such bad news without also
giving the good news: God would restore Israel, and bring His
people back from captivity.

Therefore in a passage like Isaiah 62, God made rich promises to
defend Jerusalem for His people. It was as if God said, "Yes, I will
allow Jerusalem to be conquered by the Babylonians. Yet I will
bring you back, restore you, and give you safety and security again
one day." We see just such a promise in Isaiah 62:1: "For Zion's
sake I will not hold My peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not
rest, until her righteousness goes forth as brightness."

This theme continues through the chapter, coming to the promises
made in Isaiah 62:6-7. There, God said in a prophetic promise: "I
have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem." Because God
loves and rejoices over Zion, He will protect them. Though they
were conquered before by the Babylonians, the day will come when
"He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth."

The duty of these watchmen is especially wonderful. They aren't
watchmen who look for threats and warn the people. They aren't
watchdogs who look for error and expose it. That is a duty God
does give to a few, and we pray that those who take such duty also
receive the grace to do such a difficult job in truth and love. Yet the
watchmen Isaiah spoke of here have a different, constant duty.
They "shall never hold their peace day or night. You who make
mention of the LORD, do not keep silent, and give Him no rest
until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth." The watchmen
are not critics; they are prayer warriors, who constantly pray, giving
God "no rest" until God's people and His city are restored.

This shows us several things. It shows us that God Himself does
not rest in regard to His concern for Jerusalem and for His people.
It shows us that God does not want these watchmen of prayer to
stop in their prayers for Israel. Finally, it shows us that God wants
His people to bother Him – to "give him no rest" when they pray for
the deliverance of Israel.

Charles Spurgeon, the great preacher of Victorian England, caught
the idea when he said: "A restless Savior calls upon his people to
be restless, and to make the Lord himself restless - to give him no
rest till his chosen city is in full splendor, his chosen church
complete and glorious."

The lesson for us is plain. When it comes to prayer, we are to give
God no rest. Can you imagine such an invitation from God to His
people? He invites us – virtually commands us – to bother Him in
prayer all the time. Let's say you pass a homeless man who begs
for money every day on your way to work. Would you dare say to
the beggar, "Now listen to me – I don't want you to ever let me pass
you by without you asking me for something. Give me no rest, and
be constant in your requests to me. Don't stop asking me until I
give you something, and especially ask me to give big things to
you."

Isn't this how God is towards us? In effect, He tells us to keep
asking Him, to keep pressing Him, to lay hold of His strength with
all of our strength. All of this and more is included in that great
invitation, "Give Him no rest." This applies to all of us, yet
especially to those who consider themselves watchmen. Their
greatest work should be done in prayer.

By David Guzik

[smallisland]

It is clear what his message is about the timing of the rapture, regardless of what he puts in the fine print.

That's the impression I have also savedbygrace.

I really enjoyed reading Mark Biltzes teaching on the Fall Feasts, and his article on the blood moons is fascinating.

I can't get enthusiastic about his plans for September 30th though. Something just doesn't lie right with me on that.

[savedbygrace]

Hi Smallisland,

I agree with you, the information is quite eye opening and interesting. However there should be no mention of counting backward 7 years from these signs. That is not scriptural and is misleading.

I have done a little checking and it looks like the dates of Mark Biltz's tetrad could be extremely significant because of the upcoming year of Jubilee on Yom Kippur 9/23/2015. That date is 49 years from the time of the 6 day war. Will that possibly be the beginning of the millennium? I am fascinated by this.

Recently I discovered something else. If I have counted correctly, Purim is on 3/16/2014. That is exactly 1335 days from the midpoint of the ENP. "Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days." Daniel 12:12. That date for Purim is one month prior to the first lunar eclipse of the tetrad, on Passover 4/15/2014. Purim is the celebration of the day the Jews escaped slaughter by the King of Persia (now Iran) by the scheme of Haman. Hmmm... a dual prophecy of things to come??? Iran trying to slaughter Israel, and Israel escapes certain death? Ezekiel 38-39??? Armageddon???

It was also interesting to me, that immediately after Israel became a nation again, the following two consecutive years had the lunar eclipse on Passover and Sukkot. Just like they will be in 2014-2015!! Perhaps this means something incredible will happen at the end of the ENP???

[smallisland]

Nice find savedby.

[jgilberAZ]

Now Pastor Biltz wants to have a global Feast of Trumpets Wave.

As you can see below, each time zone will have approximate start times for the onset of the Feast of Trumpets in the individual locations. As the sun goes down, blow your shofars and horns AND shout a resounding "Welcome to our King of Kings, Lord of Lords" as we celebrate in a wave of shofar blasts.

He will hear His kids, hour after hour sounding the alert, bringing in this feast. Is this going to be another dress rehearsal or will this be the eminent fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets heralding the ultimate coronation celebration?!!

emphasis in original

[savedbygrace]

Now Pastor Biltz wants to have a global Feast of Trumpets Wave.

Well thats just dandy. And my church is listed on it too. I think I'll send a letter to the pastor and voice my support.

And then when it doesn't happen, and everyone is still there feeling let down from false rapture predictions, maybe the Lord will allow me a chance to explain Matthew 24 to some of them. Things like this are doing more harm to the body than good, IMO.

The whole concept of a rapture happening in sequential order by time zones is ridiculous anyway. We will all go together, when Jesus comes.

[mark s]

Gee, I thought they were just going to blow shofars and trumpets by time zones, so we could all keep the feast at our own proper times.

Listen closely, and you might hear me caterwauling on my shofar! Well, probably not, just my neighbors. The rest of you can give thanks!

[Ready1]

Firecrackers don't count?

[Nocturne]

how will the traditional pre-trib view be discredited, when the traditional pre-trib view has absolutely nothing to do with what this guy is saying?

[savedbygrace]

Interesting... so you are suggesting the majority of pre-trib theologians are not even paying attention to Mark Biltz's observations about the upcoming lunar eclipses in 2014-15?

Beautiful video on your signature, by the way!

[smallisland]

Gee, I thought they were just going to blow shofars and trumpets by time zones, so we could all keep the feast at our own proper times.

I think that's the general idea isn't it Mark? I don't think Mark Biltz is saying anything different.

That said, the tone of his interviews lead the listener to conclude he believes the rapture may be only weeks away (despite his written disclaimer).

[mark s]

Gee, I thought they were just going to blow shofars and trumpets by time zones, so we could all keep the feast at our own proper times.

I think that's the general idea isn't it Mark? I don't think Mark Biltz is saying anything different.

That said, the tone of his interviews lead the listener to conclude he believes the rapture may be only weeks away (despite his written disclaimer).

We all have our own opinions, but that's a whole lot different than date-setting, isn't it?

[savedbygrace]

My question is this... why didn't Mr. Biltz perform this same 'bringing in of the Jewish New Year' with trumpet blasts and shouts of 'Hail King Jesus' last year? Or the year before that? Or the year before that?

Because he thinks this is the year of the rapture. Plainly enough. All of his fine print and backtracking is comparable to politicians these days. Say one thing, but then you really don't mean it. Imply something clearly to your listeners, but then you really didn't say it... I am going to watch the video again tomorrow with a small group of friends, and see what they think. I am not even going to say anything about Mr. Biltz's eschatology, and we'll see what message they get from it.

[M.C.Nige]

Aha! Made ya look!

...but you may be about to regret it!!

Due to the enormous significance of these 4 lunar eclipses, or tetrad which Mark Biltz has discovered, I believe the traditional pre-trib position will take a tremendous blow to its credibility after this date when all the saints are still around and have not been raptured.

But the affect that it will have on whether the doctrine is correct or not? zero!

To what extreme desperate measures will they go to after that date?

Personally, I'd say that desperate measures would be that employed by someone trying to discredit something (as opposed to just showing why it is wrong.)

It will be looking pretty grim, but I am sure traditional pre-trib scholars will find another way to justify the existence of the doctrine, sweeping this date under the carpet, just like '88 Reasons Why the Lord Will Come in 1988'...

I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I don't believe that it is correct to engage in date-guessing. It appears to me that the need to justify something is coming from those seeking to discredit it. I debate on forums where unbelievers are present. Do I stop being a Christian because some are engaged in the daily pursuit of ridiculing everything I believe as a Christian?

How can there be a multitude saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit has been removed?

Isn't that an assumption on your part? That which is taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2 v 7, NIV) is not the same as being absent. An analogy might be someone blocking a doorway stepping aside so that people can go through.

[El Gallo]

This can all be very confusing and frustrating. Frankly, my eyes just glaze over when folks present detailed and often well thought out counts of years, months and days, from this or that esoteric starting point. I appreciate their work, but get over loaded with competing views. I suppose a lot of people would agree.

But help is on the way. In the military you take a map and conduct "intelligence preparation", where you determine where the enemy is likely to come from, by using markers to mark through all the areas over which he can not come. Pretty soon you have a great picture of where he is likely to come. The Lord will soon enough help us to start discarding the avenues from which the enemy will not come. Then we will see more and more clearly what the prophecies really mean.

[mark s]

An analogy might be someone blocking a doorway stepping aside so that people can go through.

I think this is a very apt analogy. The literal translation of the phrase is "until out of the middle he becomes".

[savedbygrace]

In the military you take a map and conduct "intelligence preparation", where you determine where the enemy is likely to come from, by using markers to mark through all the areas over which he can not come. Pretty soon you have a great picture of where he is likely to come.

This is exactly the reason why I came to my conclusions about my end time views... LOL my bible is all marked up now!

Hi MC Nige,
Good to see your post!

Wouldn't you agree its detracting from a doctrine or a person's eschatology when they make such a big fuss about a rapture happening on a particular date, and it doesn't come true? I believe failed rapture predictions should, at the very least, warrant a re-examination of the doctrine. Mr. Biltz is saying it, without trying to appear like he is saying it. That to me is fishy.

As far as discrediting the doctrine, that will happen by itself, IMO.

[Ready1]

Wouldn't you agree its detracting from a doctrine or a person's eschatology when they make such a big fuss about a rapture happening on a particular date, and it doesn't come true? I believe failed rapture predictions should, at the very least, warrant a re-examination of the doctrine. Mr. Biltz is saying it, without trying to appear like he is saying it. That to me is fishy.

As far as discrediting the doctrine, that will happen by itself, IMO.

While I learned in 1988 that 'date setting' was futile, I will say that some day soon He is coming back, and for all our talk and grumping, I hope it happens soon. (Even if it proves somebody 'right' and sombody else wrong. I'm even willing to be on the 'wrong' side.)

[M.C.Nige]

An analogy might be someone blocking a doorway stepping aside so that people can go through.

I think this is a very apt analogy.

Thanks.

The literal translation of the phrase is "until out of the middle he becomes".

Hmmm....sounds like Yoda!

Wouldn't you agree its detracting from a doctrine or a person's eschatology when they make such a big fuss about a rapture happening on a particular date, and it doesn't come true?

Yes, I agree that it is detracting, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is wrong. Go on any forum where Christianity is discussed and there are a lot of atheists, and you will see that they are always bringing up some example of a misdemeanour by a Christian. The behaviour of the Christian may be a bad witness but it doesn't invalidate the Christian faith.

I believe failed rapture predictions should, at the very least, warrant a re-examination of the doctrine.

Or you could examine the motives behind trying to predict the Rapture. I'm a pre-tribber and the number of people I come across trying to predict the Rapture compared with those who believe it is pre-tribulation is analogous to the number of reportings of christians behaving badly compared with the actual number of Christians. There will always be the extreme.

[vgoghsear]

It's been a while since I've logged on to post. I come on about 3 times a week to stay caught up but hardly find anything worth posting. I've read this entire thread and I have to say that some of us are being awlfully harsh on Mark Biltz. In my opinion he's not doing anything that neither of us hasn't done. I mean the man's making a prediction of the second coming, haven't some of us done that already? I've read many threads here on Fulfilled Prophecy of members claiming that the ENP could have been the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel which went into effect 01 Jan 2007. By saying that, and agreeing to it, we might as well say we're predicting the second coming ourselves. Some of us even believe that the third temple is ready to be built at any given notice, and we share our thought on it with each other throughout this site. How's this any different from what Mr. Biltz has said? Many of us have said that he could be hurting non-believers by predicting a pre-trib rapture. I beg to differ. When Hal Lindsey wrote "The Late Great Planet Earth", how many non-believers do you think picked up that book and read it and was saved. Probably a lot. Even though he was wrong, and Mark Biltz could be wrong too, people were, and will be, interested enough to learn more and learn the truth. And when these new believers realize, through their growth in the Bible, that no one will know the time nor day then they will too know the truth. What I'm trying to say is though they are making a terrible mistake by predicting the Lord's return it's making people fear enough to learn the truth. I'm not justifing it but it does bring some good out of it.
But this man hasn't done anything that none of us hasn't done. I mean we all log onto this site in hopes to read a thread that convinces us even more that we are close, right? I see so many articles from around the world posted onto here by members that's made to tell us how close we are. Even Herb felt we are close. So why is it when this guy says what we are all saying do we attach his words? As far as I could tell he didn't give a date of a rapture nor did he ever say 'rapture', but we are critizing him as if he did. Who knows maybe he's right. I mean, I read the threads here and sounds to me like he's on the same course as we are here.
I don't know, it's just kind of disappointing to me to read this thread and see how some of us react to it. Is it because he's in public view saying these things? Do we not warn our non-believer friends that we are soon to see our great Lord in the air? I don't see any difference of what he says and of what we do here on Fulfilled Prophecy.
I for one am a pretrib-er. I don't believe one man can assume power over this entire world with Christians on it. I believe that the 144,000 and the two witnesses would be pointless if we were still here. I think the 144,000 are Jews that come to know the truth by the cause of the rapture itself. Something in this world has to happen in order to begin a one-world government and religion and I think it's the rapture. But these are my beliefs. Do I think that the rapture is going to happen on September 30th, 2008. I hope so, don't you? The chance of it happening is all up to God , not us. And I won't think any less of Mark Biltz either, because he's just doing what we all are doing. looking and trying to interpet the signs!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[smallisland]

Good post!

Every end times website is trying to sell a particular theory. The confusing thing is that so many appear sincere and well researched but they can't all be right.

[longing]

I could not have said it any better myself...I have not heard Mark Bilts say that this is the day that the Rapture will happen, just that there are significant events to happen on these days and it may relate to the return of Jesus. I for one hope it does. But if not I will carry on, continuing to get to know my Lord and saviour better. My hearts desire is to know God as my heavenly Father which means to know him on a one on one basis. Better than we know our earthly fathers. This is what God wants form us as well. I do not believe that any of us should be judging other people, lets leave that up to the Alimighty. Love in Christ

[savedbygrace]

Its now only about 4 more weeks until Rosh Hashanah, the feast of Trumpets 2008. Soon we will all be able to dismiss Mark Biltz's theory on a rapture this fall, 7 years prior to his discovery of the lunar eclipses on the feast days in 2014-15. Hopefully he will not do anything or say anything until then that will make him or the church look irrational. Christianity is already foolishness to those who are perishing, we don't need anyone making it appear to be even more so.

Mark Biltz is making quite a big deal about it, with his promotion of the world time zones and soundings of a shofar... now that seems a little bit more than a Christian would do on any other particular feast of Trumpets. It looks to me like he is definitely expecting something to happen this year, and he definitely alludes to the rapture this fall, in his video interview 'Prophecy in the News'.

Hopefully very soon people will understand Matthew 24 in a simpler way, and discard their dispensations and pre-supposed ideas about pre-trib rapture based on prophecy being fulfilled before their eyes. Next (most easily identifiable) prophecy event on the horizon: the stopping of the daily sacrifices by the AC in a literal temple. IMO. Not the rapture.

Dispensation: an exemption from some rule or obligation

Dispensationalism: A Christian theological scheme developed by theologian John Nelson Darby that outlined specific historic epochs or dispensations that are pre-ordained by God. This pre-millennialist view often encourages the Christian faithful to await salvation while remaining aloof from sinful secular society since they will be raptured before the Tribulations.

[mark s]

I'd like to present somewhat different definitions of Dispensation, and Dispensationalism.

Dispensation is like distribution, the dispensing of something. We use it to translate the Greek "oikonomia" or "house-law", the rules of the house. God added rules down through the years, and so dispensationalism is simply the acknowledgment of that fact.

The first house-rule was to Adam, don't eat from that tree. The next one was to Noah, if a man murders a man, man shall kill the murderer. New rules were added in the Law given to Moses. As new house-rules were added, man was accountable to God in ways he hadn't been before. Of course, everyone was still accountable to God for the rules already in place. God never rescinded those.

These are the dispensations, and the recognition of this is dispensationalism.

So I would disagree that "dispensation" refers to being exempt from a rule, rather, its the "dispensing" of new rules, on top of the old ones. Not to say that at some time God cannot rescind previous rules. But that's a different topic.

[OneDay]

Hopefully he will not do anything or say anything until then that will make him or the church look irrational. Christianity is already foolishness to those who are perishing, we don't need anyone making it appear to be even more so.

That is exactly what Happens. IMO, it seems like God's plans usually don't work out the way, or timing that we thought they should. Looking back on hinds sight, we say - oh yeah! man how did we miss that! But , the world looks at us & laughs. I think that it will get much harder for us as time goes on. So many may fall away because it isn't coming about the way they planned it would. But, we know the Word is true, & that it will all come about one way or another!
Maranatha! Come quickly Lord Jesus!!

[Loop]

Its now only about 4 more weeks until Rosh Hashanah, the feast of Trumpets 2008. Soon we will all be able to dismiss Mark Biltz's theory on a rapture this fall,

Once again, Mark Biltz "did not" say he believed there was going to be a "rapture" this fall...

Only that he thought "maybe" the tribulation might start this fall...

He isn't pre-trib... He was just discussing what he found with two "pre-trib" people...

[Resurrection Torchlight]

vgoghsear thank you for your post- I couldn't have said it better.

Also when you look at the early church- they too were expecting the return of Jesus in their lifetime, the Thessalonians were so convinced that they even believed that they missed it and were "left behind". So to live in that expectancy is a normal Christian thing, if we are not eagerly awaiting our Savior then perhaps we need to examine ourselves more deeply to root out the sin in our lives. We don't eagerly look for the antichrist, or persecution, or evil, we await our Lord. Whether you hold to pre-mid or post- trib views. God wants us to live as if we knew that He was coming back next month, next week or even tomorrow- not in fear but in hope for the completion of our salvation. If Biltz gives Christians that vision, then is that a bad thing? It isn't a false hope is it? Because Jesus could come then couldn't He?

Itook notice of the eclipses long before Biltz did, and I thought it may be significant, I came up with a similar timeline to his, completely independant of anything that he said or anyone else for that matter, this gives me great hope and excitement, and a true desire to share the gospel with those around me as the day may be dawning sooner than we know. I didn't share my timeline because I believe that is exactly what must happen, I shared it only because there are so many compelling things coming together in our time, that it could be true, and I think that is why Biltz shared his as well. If God laid something on your heart, and you were very excited about it, wouldn't you want to share it? My study has changed my spiritual walk profoundly, and my hope is that others will also see the urgency of the hour and take a stand for Christ and live His Word more fervently, and be a light for a dying world. Biltz isn't date setting, and neither am I, we're just sharing what God has laid on our hearts and the excitment that maybe- just maybe these are the signs that point to His coming, get excited, not discouraged, stop looking for all that's wrong, and get out there and share what's right- Jesus came to save a sinner like me and you and guess what? He is coming back!!! He is! and nothing will stop it from happening, we can nitpick all we want at who's theories are right and wrong- the question is what are you doing to spread His word? What are you doing to be a light and salt in this world? No-one's timeline is going to derail anything. Those who will be saved will not give credit to a timeline . That hasn't happened in the past and it won't happen now. Those who won't be saved cannot blame an unfulfilled timeline, or any person on earth, they all have a choice to make for themselves and if they blame someone else- they will bear the punishment themselves not the one they blame.

RT

[jgilberAZ]

Biltz isn't date setting, and neither am I ...

http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=36415

October 14- 21, 2008, Sukkot - Agricultural Sabbath ends
Opening of 5th seal dead in Christ resurrected (Revelation 6:9-11)
Opening of 6th seal great earthquake, sun darkened, whole moon like blood.
God supernaturally ends the Gog/ Magog war? (Revelation 6:12, Isaiah 24:13,
Ezekiel 38,39)
Rapture of the church (1 Corinthians 15: 50-53, 1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18, Isaiah 26: 20,21, Joel 2: 15-16,30-32, Zephaniah 2:3, Revelation 3:10, 7:14,
Luke 21:36, John 5:24,Psalm 27:5, 32:7, 34:7, 50:15)
Sealing of 144,000, No wind on earth. (Revelation 7:4-8)

[Resurrection Torchlight]

jgilberAZ- your point is????

From the link you posted-

This is an updated Timeline of the 7-year tribulation and how the feasts and fasts of Israel may be fulfilled.

This Timetable is only an example using current dates to show how
end times prophecy might be fulfilled on the Jewish Feasts and Fasts. Though these feasts and corresponding dates given here are compelling, it does not necessarily mean that they will be fulfilled on these dates, this timing could reoccur at some time in the more distant future.

Believe me I understand the perils of date setting. I struggle with it myself, the reason I shared it is because there are just so many coincidences that I felt I should, however I am not suggesting that I have a corner on timing, and like I stated emphatically, I very well may be wrong, I myself have a hard time believing that I may be right.

I came up with the timeline as a result of trying to disprove the pre-trib theory. As I studied, the traditional pre-trib view that I had been taught just didn't make sense to me,there were problems IMO with the timing of events. I was seriously thinking that the mid-trib pre-wrath view was the way to go, but also found difficulties in the timing of that view, so I just started studying and putting the different pieces together. The Jewish calendar, the pagan calendar, our calendar Daniel's timeline and the sequence of events in Revelation and two years later, I am convinced that a revised pre-trib veiw is indeed scriptural and answered all my doubts.

I share it not because I think I am right, but only because I found it compelling.
My study of scripture has changed my life. I ask myself, what if it is right?
And I say nothing to anyone? My hope is that it may inspire those like yourself to search the scriptures and prove I'm wrong. But more than that to live our lives as if we did know that He was coming this year or this week. How would this change your life? My life has profoundly changed as a result of my study. Whether the timline is correct or not, I am forever changed and will never look back.

if you read the rest of the post you will see that I shared what I found and that I emphatically state that I most likely am wrong in my timeline and said that several times, I only shared it because it fit the scenario depicted in scripture rather neatly IMO, that does not mean that it will be fulfilled as I think- I have said this over and over in the post, those that have read it will agree. I shared it here in the community only because it seems plausible and that there are many coincidences that seem to support it. I myself have a hard time believing that it is possible that it may happen that way, and make no claims to have a corner on timing or on interpretation for that matter. I came to this sight in search of someone who might show me where I was wrong. I did not set out to come up with a timeline, I set out to try and figure out the order of events scripturally and merely plugged it into the current calendar to see if it was feasable, and to my surprise it was, in a way that I never anticipated. The study and research I have done since has only reinforced it, rather than proving me wrong as I was anticipating it would. Perhaps Biltz did the same thing. My timeline is only a possibility, if it doesn't happen- nothing will change for me, I will still Love the Lord and still abide in Him.

I basically stumbled upon the timeline I came up with, and when I saw how well it appears to fit with prophecy, I was very excited and wanted to share it in an environment where I could get some honest feedback. Let me ask any of you reading this- if you saw through study and putting together research a way in which the prophecies could unfold realistically in our lifetime- wouldn't you want to share it? Isn't that why Herb started this site? He saw what he believed to be the unfolding of prophetic events, it became a passion for him to share it with others- that is how I feel as well and I am sure how Mark Biltz feels, and anyone here who is intrigued by events around us.

This board is the only place I have shared the timeline- I realize it is public space, but I pretty much think that mostly die-hard prophecy buffs spend time here. So I think the risk of "date setting" is fairly contained here. And like I said- no timeline or prediction that doesn't happen will persuade me to take any other path than Christ. God has moved in such a powerful and profound way in my life through this, that even if I am proved wrong I will still be grateful for all I have learned and will still look for His coming in my lifetime.

I would encourage anyone interested in my timeline to read the entire thread- you will see that it is not my intention to "date set" but just to share what to me was a very compelling possibility- that's all.

RT

[mark s]

I would encourage anyone interested in my timeline to read the entire thread- you will see that it is not my intention to "date set" but just to share what to me was a very compelling possibility- that's all.

Hi RT,

I understood that. You've raised a number of very interesting possibilities, and I appreciate all the work you've done, and your sharing it with us.

God bless!

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Thank you Mark

You have been a constant source of encouragement, and always deal kindly even in your criticism, I appreciate you and have learned much in reading your posts as well.

RT

[savedbygrace]

He isn't pre-trib... He was just discussing what he found with two "pre-trib" people...

If Mark Biltz isn't pre-trib then I'm a monkey's uncle.

[Cantaress4Him]

Actually, he's pan-trib, which is the belief that everything will pan out in the end. If you watch some of the videos on his web site, you'll hear him say this. He says that he's more interested in preaching the message of salvation to the world than in worrying about when the rapture's going to happen. It'll all pan out in the end ... and it will.

[Loop]

It was on one of the tapes that he said he was not pre-trib, thats all I know...

[savedbygrace]

So if he's pan-trib, why is he making such a big deal about Rosh Hashanah this September? Why didn't he do it last year? Why did he say in his video that he thinks the tribulation could start this fall?

[Cantaress4Him]

Because 2008 is a Sabbatical year and this Rosh Hashanah ends the old week of 7 years and begins the next 7 year cycle. He believes that the tribulation will most likely start at the beginning of a new cycle of 7 years.

Savedbygrace, have you watched any of Pastor Mark's sermons?

[savedbygrace]

Mark Biltz's assumptions that the tribulation period lasts 7 years are unfounded in scripture, IMO. Therefore it makes it difficult to follow his eschatology when he doesn't give strong scriptural support for this view. I have seen him interviewed a few times and read some of his articles but I don't give much credit to people's views who don't even get the basics right in the first place. He can speculate about a 7 year tribulation, and say it will start this September 29th-30th at Rosh Hashanah but I am sure he is mistaken. Why am I so sure? Because a 7 year trib is not in God's word.

Jesus said the time of Great Tribulation will be after the AC rises to power and causes the abomination in the temple. That is half way through the 70th week, not the beginning of it.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains.....

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

[TRUTHSPEAK]

(1)This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

(2)That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

(3)Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

(4)And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

(5)For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

(6)Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

(7)But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

(8)But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

(9)The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(10)But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

(11)Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

(12)Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

(13)Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

(14)Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

(15)And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

(16)As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

(17)Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

(18)But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
II PETER 3


Personally? It's -IMHO? Post Trib. Does that make me right? My honest opinion -Does my opinion make me right? Does yours?

A person told me once, "...., little Corrie Ten Boom said, 'some believe Jesus will come before the tribulation, some people believe He'll come in the middle, and some people believe He'll come at the end... what matters is that we have our hearts ready to meet Him when He does come back.'"

Verses 3 & 4: Why do you suppose so many non believers are turned off by us Christians?

Verses 7, 9, 10, 11, & 12: Our trivial divisions become huge -become cannon fodder for the mockers and the scoffers ... what matters is that we have our hearts ready to meet Him when He does come back -what matters is But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. I PETER 3:15,16
What really matters?
1. John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
2. John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
3. John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
4. John 15:17
These things I command you, that ye love one another.
5. Romans 12:10
Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
6. Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
7. Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
8. Ephesians 4:2
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
9. 1 Thessalonians 3:12
And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
10. 1 Thessalonians 4:9
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
11. Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
12. 1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
13. 1 Peter 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
14. 1 John 3:11
For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
15. 1 John 3:23
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
16. 1 John 4:7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
17. 1 John 4:11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
18. 1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
19. 2 John 1:5
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

I'm not singling any one out, couldn't do that one even if I desired to -I'm just as guilty as the next Christian man or woman regarding my passion for and defense of whether or not Jesus will come back before, during or after the Great Tribulation. And yes, date setting is just plain wrong, and I can understand the warning/s not to place any faith whatsoever in the same, so I ask all of you here on this particular thread, please don't take me wrong. It's just that when I really think about it -No, when we really think about it, when we let go & let God? What really matters?

Verse 9: ... II PETER 3


Keep The Faith my brothers & sisters in Christ Jesus our Lord & Savior

Keep The Faith -And Love One Another...

[dshemjo]

Jesus told us very clearly in Matt. 24 and parallel passages what we are to be looking for in regard to his coming and the end of the age.....and he said nothing about eclipses lining up with OT feasts. It's sad seeing beleivers so easily deceived and flocking to the newest Christian celebrity because they offer a new idea or perspective. If eclipses lining up with OT feasts was this awesome sign of Christ's return, why didn't Jesus say anything about it when his disciples asked him about the sign of his coming? Or Paul? Or any of the NT (or OT for that matter) writers? C'mon people, lets stick to the Word of God:

Mat 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what {will be} the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.
Mat 24:5 "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many.
Mat 24:6 "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for {those things} must take place, but {that} is not yet the end.
Mat 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes.
Mat 24:8 "But all these things are {merely} the beginning of birth pangs.
Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Mat 24:10 "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
Mat 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Mat 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Mat 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.
Mat 24:17 "Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
Mat 24:18 "Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
Mat 24:19 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Mat 24:20 "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
Mat 24:21 "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Mat 24:23 "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There {He is,}' do not believe {him.}
Mat 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mat 24:25 "Behold, I have told you in advance.
Mat 24:26 "So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, {or,} 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe {them.}
Mat 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:28 "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mat 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

[Resurrection Torchlight]

Mark Biltz's assumptions that the tribulation period lasts 7 years are unfounded in scripture, IMO.

The prophecy given in Daniel, lays the groundwork for the idea of a 7 year period. While it cannot be proven precisely that The book of revelation is also set in that time frame, it does seem to correlate and tie into Daniel's 70th week of years. Most bible prophecy scholars believe this to be true, and there is scriptural support for this. If you understand the OT law and the Law of sabbath years, you will understand what this means. God's "clock" is based on Sabbaths, weekly, and and land Sabbaths. The fulfillment of the Revelation, will be the kingdom. This fulfillment will occur at the end of a Jubilee year, which in turn follows the 7th year in the count toward a land sabbath. During a land Sabbath a remittance of debt was issued, at the start of a Jubilee- everyone was to return to the land of their inheritance, slaves were set free to do so also. Since we know that the Israelites will return to the land of their inheritance, and to their God- we understand that this is in line with the Sabbath for the land and a Jubilee year. Therefore Daniel's last week- which remains unfulfilled, at least most believe this- not all, has to be a period of 7 years, with the last 3 1/2 years being the great tribulation. Many prophecy teachers call this period of 7 years the "tribulation", while Jesus refers to the time after the AOD as the great tribulation. It's just semantics, But the 70 years decreed to Israel's people to Daniel were in terms of land Sabbaths. Israel was captive in Babylon 70 years because they did not keep the Sabbaths for 490 years(70x7). The seventy weeks prophecy is in the same way related to Sabbath years, and remains unfulfilled.

Daniel 9:24

24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

Since the Jews rejected Jesus as their Savior- these things remain unfulfilled, so there remains that 1 week of years- a Sabbath for the land to yet occur. Daniel's 70th week must align with the count toward a land sabbath beginning on year 1 of the count and ending on year 7. The land Sabbaths have always been counted by the Jews, though not always observed in the biblical sense. This September for example begins the first year in the count toward the land Sabbath that will occur in 2015. (This year beginning last September 2007, was a land Sabbath or a shemittah or shmittah as the Jews call it.)

RT

[jgilberAZ]

The 70th week is indeed 7 years. It has to be.

But, has part of it been fulfilled already?
I don't know.

But, I do know that it won't be seven years of tribulation.

And, it's more than just semantics. Calling the entire 70th week "The Tribulation" results in serious interpretation errors that contribute to the false pre-70th week rapture view.

[savedbygrace]

Hello, thank you all for your posts!

Truthspeak, so you're post trib? That's great! Post trib may be correct, depending on the variations or modifications of the particular view. I am somewhere right between a modified pre-wrath and modified post-trib view myself. I agree with your post in the sense that we should all be ready when Christ returns, regardless of when it will be. For that matter, we should all be blowing shofars every night to greet Jesus at his coming, not just on the feast of trumpets. I personally don't think discussing scriptures and debating different viewpoints is harmful. It has helped me to learn and grow in the word and in faith over the years.

dshemjo, nice scripture, thats the simplest, most direct teaching available in the bible about Christ's return. It was directly from Jesus, and it was given directly in response to a question about his return. The problem is not with the scriptures themselves, it is with people who don't believe Jesus was talking to Christians in that passage from Matthew 24.

RT, thanks for chiming in, I agree with your post and I see that Daniel's 70th week is a period of 7 years. But we must remember in Daniel 8 and 11 that there appears to be a pre-AoD personality to the antichrist, and a post-AoD side to the antichrist after he receives his power. The beginning of the AC's authority appears to line up with the midpoint of the 70th week. Jesus said the time of great tribulation is after the AoD. Therefore calling the first half of the 70th week 'tribulation' should not be confused with the time of 'Great Tribulation'. Christians in various parts of the world throughout history have suffered general 'tribulation', but that does not make it the time of 'great tribulation' when the end times antichrist is persecuting the saints and overcoming them.

Concerning God's timing of sabbath years and sabbatical cycles, your point remains true. However it does not prove the time of 'Great Tribulation' begins at the beginning of a sabbatical cycle, nor that the 'Great Tribulation' begins at the start of a jubilee year. I believe the upcoming Jubilee year in 2015 may have significance in relation to the beginning of the millennial kingdom, rather than the beginning of the 70th week or the great tribulation.

It may be true that the next sabbatical cycle this September could kick off the 70th week, but not the beginning of the 'great tribulation'. We shall soon see.

Blessings,
SBG

[Resurrection Torchlight]

SBG,

RT, thanks for chiming in, I agree with your post and I see that Daniel's 70th week is a period of 7 years. But we must remember in Daniel 8 and 11 that there appears to be a pre-AoD personality to the antichrist, and a post-AoD side to the antichrist after he receives his power. The beginning of the AC's authority appears to line up with the midpoint of the 70th week. Jesus said the time of great tribulation is after the AoD. Therefore calling the first half of the 70th week 'tribulation' should not be confused with the time of 'Great Tribulation'. Christians in various parts of the world throughout history have suffered general 'tribulation', but that does not make it the time of 'great tribulation' when the end times antichrist is persecuting the saints and overcoming them.

Concerning God's timing of sabbath years and sabbatical cycles, your point remains true. However it does not prove the time of 'Great Tribulation' begins at the beginning of a sabbatical cycle, nor that the 'Great Tribulation' begins at the start of a jubilee year. I believe the upcoming Jubilee year in 2015 may have significance in relation to the beginning of the millennial kingdom, rather than the beginning of the 70th week or the great tribulation.

It may be true that the next sabbatical cycle this September could kick off the 70th week, but not the beginning of the 'great tribulation'. We shall soon see.

I guess maybe I wasn't clear, but the way you put it, is also they way I see it, the "great tribulation" would follow the AOD which I see as happening at the end of the first half of the 7 year period or at the 3 1/2 year midpoint. Which would be somewhere around the middle of the Sabbath year cycle. With the Jubilee coming at the end of the 7 year sabbath cycle in the eighth year.

jgilberAZ said:

And, it's more than just semantics. Calling the entire 70th week "The Tribulation" results in serious interpretation errors that contribute to the false pre-70th week rapture view.

Well I concede that it may confuse some even many perhaps, though I wouldn't classify it as serious error. Since depending on your view of course, there will be some serious tribulation going on in the first half of the week also, at least in some places on earth- with the seals being opened and as I am a pre-trib believer (who sees it as scripturally supported and true), with all those believers disappearing, I imagine a serious upheaval will ensue around the world until antichrist steps in to bring false peace, but I agree that even this will be nothing like the persecution that will come in the second half after the AOD.

RT

[TRUTHSPEAK]

Hello, thank you all for your posts!

Truthspeak, so you're post trib? That's great! Post trib may be correct, depending on the variations or modifications of the particular view. I am somewhere right between a modified pre-wrath and modified post-trib view myself. I agree with your post in the sense that we should all be ready when Christ returns, regardless of when it will be. For that matter, we should all be blowing shofars every night to greet Jesus at his coming, not just on the feast of trumpets. I personally don't think discussing scriptures and debating different viewpoints is harmful. It has helped me to learn and grow in the word and in faith over the years.

savedbygrace, I agree with you that discussing scriptures is not harmful, that we're to keep in mind that some of our fellow brothers & sisters in Christ are babes, that some are very sensitive, that the world is watching nearly every word & every move we say or do, that we always be praying, that we always be watching, that we try our best to keep our sinful natures from becoming any part of our discourse, that we discuss God's Word in His Holy Spirit: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. And finally, whether He comes before, in the middle or at the end? Let's always love one another and forgive one another, because we're only human, because we're the Bride & the Bridegroom is saying, And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.


Look up -For our redemption is drawing ever closer


SBG, God Bless you and all of your loved ones and friends in Christ Jesus Holy & Precious Name


Keep The Faith

[savedbygrace]

RT and Truthspeak, I am grateful to have some things in common with you both, from opposite ends of the rapture spectrum, and it is a joy to be able to discuss scriptures with you and have our focus on Jesus rather than on our differences. Thank you for the blessings and for your faith in studying the word of truth!

SBG

[GodsStudent]

Now if that don't make my little light shine! THATS THE WAY CHRISTIANS DO IT! Great thread, you guys!