Only a few more weeks until the rapture

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Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:35 am

Or at least, until the absence of it. Aha! Made ya look! :grin:


This upcoming September may be the time of the rapture, according to what many people are starting to think. The date is September 30, on Rosh Hashanah 2008. This is the date Mark Biltz and many other traditional pre-tribbers are gleefully hanging their hat on for the rapture since his discovery of the tetrad of 4 lunar eclipses on the Jewish feast days in 2014-2015. I know Mark denies any claim to date setting on his website, but if you have seen his video on the Prophecy in the News site with JR Church and Gary Stearman http://66.155.114.80/video/Dsl/5904-D.wmv you would see differently. He cheerfully agrees with the hosts and vocalizes this date as the time of the rapture.

The evidence Mark presents in his interview with Ray Bentley of Maranatha Chapel (see link below) and on his website http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/stipulation.html is impressive, and should not be discounted. However these lunar and solar eclipses do not prove the rapture will happen 7 years prior to the lunar and solar eclipses in 2014-2015.

Due to the enormous significance of these 4 lunar eclipses, or tetrad which Mark Biltz has discovered, I believe the traditional pre-trib position will take a tremendous blow to its credibility after this date when all the saints are still around and have not been raptured. To what extreme desperate measures will they go to after that date? It will be looking pretty grim, but I am sure traditional pre-trib scholars will find another way to justify the existence of the doctrine, sweeping this date under the carpet, just like '88 Reasons Why the Lord Will Come in 1988'...

The scriptures are clear about the timing of the main events of the end times, as Jesus explained in Matthew 24 to the early Christians, and that does not include a rapture prior to everything falling apart and the antichrist rising on scene.

See the interview with Ray Bentley dated June 11, 2008- "Interview With Mark Biltz - Blood Moons"
http://www.maranathachapel.org/audio_vi ... esday.html


See the Mark Biltz' chart about the red moons and solar eclipses 2014-2015 here (bottom of the page) http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/video ... harts.html

So when do YOU think will be the season of the rapture according to Mark Biltz' information? Thoughts anyone?

Edited to provide a link to the chart.
Last edited by savedbygrace on Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:51 am

Due to the enormous significance of these 4 lunar eclipses, or tetrad which Mark Biltz has discovered, I believe the traditional pre-trib position will take a tremendous blow to its credibility after this date when all the saints are still around and have not been raptured. To what extreme desperate measures will they go to after that date? It will be looking pretty grim, but I am sure traditional pre-trib scholars will find another way to justify the existence of the doctrine, sweeping this date under the carpet, just like '88 Reasons Why the Lord Will Come in 1988'...


I'd have to ask, to what extreme desperate measures will anyone go, who is simply seeking to justify some particular view? For those who only wish to "justify the existence" of any particular doctrine, I'd say they are on shifting sand indeed!

I think we know very well the pitfalls of date-setting. I think we also know the pitfalls of believing things based on bias, and not on a Scriptural foundation.

But whether or not the rapture occurs this September, our Scriptural foundation for belief remains the same, and whether its this week, or next week, or next year, or in 10 years, even so, its not about trying to justify a view, its about study, and seeking to know God's truth.

Personally, I don't think the second coming will be timed according to these eclipses. I think the eclipses may relate, but I think the sun and moon and stars being darkened all at the same time, at the end of the 70th week, will not be a simple eclipse, but rather something much different.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:09 am

mark s wrote:

Personally, I don't think the second coming will be timed according to these eclipses. I think the eclipses may relate, but I think the sun and moon and stars being darkened all at the same time, at the end of the 70th week, will not be a simple eclipse, but rather something much different.

Knowing your modified view, for clarification, do you mean you don't think the rapture will be timed according to these eclipses? Or you don't think Jesus' physical coming to the Mt. of Olives will be timed according to these eclipses?
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:36 am

As I understand various people's take on these eclipses, they are figuring the timing of the second coming, at the end of the 70th week, based on the eclipses, then backing into rapture timing, whether pre-, mid-, or p-w.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that these eclipses have some bearing on the end times scenario, but I don't think the sun being darkened and the moon being darkened, which will happen at the end of the 70th week when Jesus comes in glory (Matt 24), which will also include all the celestial bodies being darkened (Zech 14), will be from an eclipse. I think it has to be something more than that.

So I don't think we should become too set on the idea that Jesus is coming on such and such a day, since that's the day of this certain eclipse. And therefore we shouldn't get too set on a day 7 years before that day for the rapture. Or 3.5 for you mid-trib folks, or .3-3.4 for you pre-wrath folks.

does that help clarify?
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby kazbo on Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:10 pm

the traditional pre-trib position will take a tremendous blow to its credibility after this date when all the saints are still around and have not been raptured.


Uh, no, it won't.

How many pre-tribbers out there do you think are aware of this tetrad and its possible significance?

Pretty much only those online who are actively watching end-times events.

That ain't that many.

What I really want to know is why you are so passionate about discrediting pre-tribbers. You seem almost gleeful about it.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mrgravyard49 on Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:23 pm

What I really want to know is why you are so passionate about discrediting pre-tribbers. You seem almost gleeful about it.

Very Christian dont ya think... :cry:
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Sue-M on Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:35 pm

In Matthew 24, Jesus said that it is "immediately after the distress of those days" that's when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it's light. So, to me, the Trib will have ended before these signs in the sun and moon. So, we are back again to not knowing the day or the hour. But, we know "about when" because we can determine when the sun and the moon are going to do this.

Personally, I think we are past the pre-trib rapture period of time. But, I wouldn't mind getting out of here early.
Luke 21:28

When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:21 pm

kazbo wrote:
How many pre-tribbers out there do you think are aware of this tetrad and its possible significance?
Hi Kazbo, I am certain there are tens of thousands, perhaps more, of pre-tribbers who are aware of this tetrad which Mark Biltz has been presenting everywhere in churches, internet, and television. There may not be that many people paying attention to end time events, but more people seem to be catching on lately. The largest majority of those who are watching are pre-trib. It is the mainstream view today. There are even fewer of us who are not pre-trib, but are watching also.

What I really want to know is why you are so passionate about discrediting pre-tribbers. You seem almost gleeful about it.
No, I am not gleeful about this at all. I am actually quite concerned with truth, and I feel like there is something terribly wrong when I have to listen to people like Mark Biltz present evidence like this in such a way as to lead people to think the rapture may be happening this fall. The way in which he presents it is giving false hope and a sense of anticipation to believers that hear his message, that the rapture could happen this September 30. I think its completely unsupported by scripture and may present some problems for people who put too much weight on it. Count backwards 7 years from the lunar eclipses in 2014-2015??? Where does Jesus say that??? Scripture please.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby El Gallo on Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:55 pm

We always need to remember, major on the majors (the gospel message) and minor on the minors (including prophecy interpretations). We must not break fellowship. I became a pre-wrath guy at about the same time I became an Islam is the Beast guy. Niether happened b/c of anything I read, other than scripture.

I have no problem with pre-trib folks, as time will tell, won't it?. My apprehension however, is that pre-trib folks will then face the great persecution -- one which they were told they would not be around to endure. Might many wonder if other things they were told are also untrue? Will some number be therefore conditioned to listen to the False Prophets' clever fabrications and shading of truth? Maybe he will explain how everything they were told is just a bit off.

This is not to say this would be true of any certain number, but the disappointment would certainly lead some to doubt their faith altogether. If the pre-trib position is wrong, all living Christians will be entering a horrendous battle, where they must show agape leadership for a desperate and floundering world. If one expects a "Get Out of the Tribulation Free Card", can one be said to be prepared for the war? These are not rhetorical questions. I just want my pre-trib brothers and sisters to at least seriously think about the "What if?", so as to be spiritually, mentally, and otherwise prepared.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mrgravyard49 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:17 am

Amen El Gallo,

I have no Problem with those who are Post -Trib or Mid -Trib or Pre- Wrath.
We are to Love a Pray for each other no matter what we each believe.
I believe we are about to begin the 70th week and if come november I am still here Ok I just have to be ready for what is to come. True not all Pre-trib people will adjust and we just have to Pray for them..
But we should Never condem each other we are to be Like Christ...
Blessings...
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:41 am

As for the rapture happening soon according to eclipses- I am not holding my breath. Date setting is a precarious thing- I myself have a timeline of what may happen. But I don't put all my eggs in that basket- because I am just a puny minded human being and not God and more than likely I am wrong, and more than likely the eclipses are just a sign for us to keep watching. Maybe not, but in hindsight everything will be clear right?

As for rapture timing and falling from faith, this discussion has gone around and around. In the end no matter what position you hold- what really matters is your faith in Jesus Christ. Not your faith in man's interpretation of prophetic scripture. If things don't pan out as I expect, sure I will be disappointed, but persecution has tried the faith of Christians since the inception of the church, and if I am to face such trials- then I trust God to give me the grace to see me through it, just as He has for all the saints that have gone on before me.There is nothing that excludes America from difficult days ahead, regardless of a pre-trib view, we may suffer persecution long before the 70th week gets here. We have no guarantees as to what we may or may not have to endure at any point in the future.

Waiting for the rapture/resurrection is not a false hope- It is our hope- as Christians it is the very thing that sustains us, and it is a very scriptural precedent. I am also concerned with truth and could give you what I believe is biblical truth concerning a pre-trib rapture. But you would not be convinced, just as your evidence for pre-wrath or post-trib would not convince me. It is an unfortunate thing that we allow these differences divide us. I don't believe that I have a corner on truth when it comes to interpreting prophecy, the nature of prophetic scripture is difficult to pin down precisely since it refers to events that have yet to take place. God has the corner on truth here, and we would all do well to remember that. God could have made it easy for us and spelled it all out clearly- but He didn't. I am sure He has a reason for not doing so, but in the mean time we are to be about His work- sharing Christ with a dying world and being faithful stewards of the talents He has given us.

I am sure that if such trials come there will be many who may have a faith crisis, that is where the more mature in the faith will have to come alongside them and encourage them to remain steadfast in their faith.
If it turns out that my pre-trib view is wrong, then I will see it as the most awesome opportunity to share the gospel with those I know are perishing, and will be able to show them in scripture exactly what is happening as it unfolds.
In the history of the Church- it has been those times of persecution that have strengthened the resolve of those who are true believers. And for those who will endure the end times- because there will be those who are saved during that time who whatever position you hold will suffer great persecution- I trust the same will be true for them- God will strengthen them and give them the ability to endure.

Again the important thing is to examine ourselves, repent of our sins, walk in the Word and trust in Jesus Christ. Whatever happens.

RT
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mrgravyard49 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:42 am

Amen RT.
We have said all there is to say. I'd say time to close this up...
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:51 am

mrgravyard wrote:I believe we are about to begin the 70th week and if come november I am still here Ok I just have to be ready for what is to come. True not all Pre-trib people will adjust and we just have to Pray for them..
But we should Never condem each other we are to be Like Christ...
I agree with this statement, but not all are pre-tribbers are so open minded. Many pre-tribbers I talk to are completely convinced beyond even discussing it. The topic is not even open to discussion. Its written in stone, its absolute truth and if you don't believe in pre-trib you are something equivalent to the plague and not to be respected for your prophecy views. I have endured this myself, and I dislike it very much. It is not me who is condemning anyone. I simply wish to be objective, discuss scriptures, and uphold truth. Instead, I usually get responses from pre-tribbers which are in defense of their person and character.

The point of this thread is to bring to attention the pre-tribbers who continually set times and dates for the rapture, and it never happens. Mark Biltz in another one of them. This is can be seen in his video on 'Prophecy in the News'. He is leading people to believe the rapture is coming this September 30. I think its a misrepresentation of scripture and a big mistake to give people this kind of false hope.

But Mark Biltz is not the only one who has ever done this. He is just another in a long line of pre-tribbers who have been documented in falsely predicted the rapture. Yet they still keep preaching it as truth, and their views are still respected by the majority.

1 Chuck Smith, 1978 predicted the rapture would come in 1981. That was decades ago, and it did not happen. He is the head of the entire Calvary Chapel churches today, and he is still respected as an expert on this subject.

2 Pat Robertson predicted a few years in advance that the world would end in the fall of 1982. Yet the failure of this date for the rapture to occur did not affect his reputation.

3 Hal Lindsey had predicted in his book "The Late, Great Planet Earth" that the Rapture was coming in 1988. This is supposedly one generation of 40 years after Israel became a nation again. Yet his failed prophecy does not prevent him from being considered an expert on the subject. He writes numerous books on the subject and has his own weekly webcast.

4 Edgar Whisenant published the book "88 Reasons why the Rapture will Occur in 1988", which sold more than 4 million copies. Maybe he should have stuck to being a NASA scientist instead of trying to make prophetic predictions like this one. Many other pre-tribbers also predicted this date for the rapture. I clearly remember this being preached at my old Baptist church and it made everyone excited. It did not happen, and I felt very let down. It was then I started to question some of the things about pre-trib doctrine.

5 Peter Ruckman an independent Baptist minister and founder of Pensacola Bible Institute, concluded from his analysis of the Bible that the rapture would come within a few years of 1990. Why should a man like this have anything to do with founding a bible institute? From Wikipedia, "Ruckman's unusual ideas extend beyond the Bible. For instance, he believes in UFOs and blue aliens with blue blood, black aliens with green blood, and gray aliens with clear blood.[13] Further, he believes that the CIA has implanted brain transmitters in children, old people, and African-Americans and that the agency operates underground alien breeding facilities.[14] In 1997, Ruckman claimed that Attorney General Janet Reno had drawn up a list with his name on it and prophesied that the "Government Mafia" would make a hit on him during "the next two or three years."

6 I believe Mark Biltz will be the next one to add to this list of people who ignorantly and unscripturally set dates for the rapture, who has September 30, 2008 as the date for the big fly in the sky. When this does not come true, will he still be regarded as an expert on the subject like the others before him? This is a huge discredit to the pre-trib doctrine, yet people still embrace it as steadfast truth.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:04 am

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:God has the corner on truth here, and we would all do well to remember that. God could have made it easy for us and spelled it all out clearly- but He didn't.
Actually, God did spell it out for us, IMO. The disciples even asked Jesus directly about this topic. Its right there in the Olivette discourse chapters, in perfect order and Jesus said certain things would have to occur first. He gave a specific sign of the abomination of desolation to the disciples. He even gave details of a red moon, darkened sun and stars falling from the sky. This same order of events is also confirmed by Paul in his epistles, and also by John's account in Revelations, and God requires truth to be established by two or three witnesses. There is no pre-trib rapture in the bible. Unless you change the meaning of the term 'elect' to mean exclusively Israel and then read into the text something about a pre-trib rapture which does not exist.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby David L on Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:35 am

savedbygrace wrote:When this does not come true, will he still be regarded as an expert on the subject like the others before him?


I think the answer is obvious. Of course, he'll still be an 'expert'. They'll just chalk up an apology like any good ex-NFL player would after being proven a false prophet. Oops! wrong thread...

People are fascinated by these things. Do you have a link or may I ask of the source for Chuck's prophesying of the rapture going down in '81? That's an eye opener. I'd love to check out the source for myself though. I already knew about the others.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby kazbo on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:06 pm

No, I am not gleeful about this at all. I am actually quite concerned with truth


It's great to be concerned with truth. It's good to present what you think is the truth (a non-pre-trib rapture) to others. By all means, speak the truth in love.

But then leave it to the Holy Spirit to open the other person's eyes as he sees fit. If the other person does not come around to what you think is the truth, then your issue is with the Holy Spirit, not with the person. God is more than able - obviously - to change a person's mind and heart. It's not our job to keep hammering away until we see the results we want to see. Not only is it not our job, but it's incredibly presumptuous to think we can do a better job than God can, and that we know that, how, and when, God wants someone to change their thinking on something.

I've seen you present your views here many times. But you also push and push, and try so hard to convince - has that yielded any fruit? Has it promoted unity? Has it encouraged us pre-tribbers in our faith? I can tell you, from my personal experience, that rather than encouraging me, it's made me feel only attacked, belittled, and tired.

How much more uplifting would it be to hear something like this:

"while I don't believe pre-tribbers are correct in their thinking, I am more than convinced that Jesus is able to keep them from falling and to present them before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy".

Just my "side" - thanks for letting me present it.

Disclaimer: since this is written communication without benefit of tone of voice or facial expression, please know I am not angry with you or scolding you or trying to flame you in any way. :angel:
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:16 pm

This is an email I am composing for a friend, fellow believer, and fellow attendee of my church:
================================================================================

Being that I believe you (like I) want to be like the Berean's and search for the truth of scripture to confirm (or discredit) what you've been taught, I submit the following for your analysis. I pray that you won't take offense in this, and that you see it as a search for the truth for both of us. Ie, I don't claim to have all the answers, and if I am in error I will gladly conform my views to what is taught in scripture. All that matters to me is "what do the scriptures teach?" Period. My feelings either way are irrelevant.

re: the following
This is not entirely my own work. I have heavily borrowed and cut/pasted from different sources in order to put it together as seen below.

------------------

Assumptions inherent in the pre-tribulation rapture view:

1. God cannot (will not) work with both the nation of Israel and the church at the same time, so the church has to be removed prior to the start of Daniel's 70th week.

2. The elect in Matthew 24 is national Israel, therefore Matthew 24 does not apply to the church.

3. "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 signifies the rapture.

4. The Holy Spirit in the church is the restrainer of 2 Thess 2:7

5. The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 become evangelists, resulting in ...

6. A great revival takes place during the tribulation

7. The 24 elders in Revelation represent the church.

8. The great multitude in Revelation 7 represents those who missed the pre-tribulation rapture but became believers during the 70th week.

All of these assumptions make sense and fit together. Each assumption can be explained and reasoned - but the shear number of assumptions causes questions, and promotes the conclusion that this is a view that is forced to fit together. Bottom line, the pre-tribulation rapture view is a view that is based MORE on assumptions than on scripture.

Besides the assumptions, there are scriptural issues, as well.

Scripture indicates in several passages that the return of Christ will be unmistakable:

Matthew 24:26-27 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:23-24 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them]. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


How can there be a multitude saved in the tribulation if the Holy Spirit has been removed?

Why is the pre-tribulation rapture missing in end-times passages (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 17, Luke 21)

If the rapture happens pre-tribulation, then there must be two raptures since Matt 24:29-31 clearly describes a rapture.

The order of events is given in 2 Thess 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The order is: The Lord's coming and our gathering will not happen before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. In other words, scripture says that the gathering of the saints takes place AFTER the abomination of desolation (the revealing of the man of sin).

The key to understanding the timing of the rapture is to study the Day of the Lord. In both the Old and the New Testaments, the Day of the Lord has the following themes:

1. Sign of the sun, moon, and stars just before ...
2. Jesus comes in power and glory
3. Salvation/deliverance for His people
4. Wrath poured out on unbelievers

Isaiah 13:6-9,11,13
Amos 5:18-19, 8:3-5
Jeremiah 4:10, 30:11
Zephaniah 1:11-12, 17-18; 2:1-3; 3:8-9
Isaiah 10:20
Isaiah 14:1
Zechariah 2:10-12
Joel 2:1-2, 10-13, 31-32; 3:14-15
Amos 8:9

Matt 24:29-31
Mark 13:24-27
Luke 21:25-28
Acts 2:20-21

Rev 6:12-14
Rev 7:3-4, 9, 13-14

The Day of the Lord in Revelation echos the themes of the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament:

1. Sign of the sun, moon, and stars just before ...
2. Jesus comes in power and glory
3. Salvation/deliverance for His people
4. Wrath poured out on unbelievers

The Day of the Lord and the rapture are linked in the New Testament:

2 Thess 2:1
1 Thess 4:17-2 Thess 5:2

Paul has just been telling them what it will be like when Jesus returns to rapture the church and immediately he begins to address when this will happen - and it is obvious that what he has been talking about, HE calls "the day of the Lord." The realization is that the Bible DOES talk about the rapture, but the Biblical term for the rapture IS "the day of the Lord."

There are 6 major passages in the New Testament that deal with the second coming of Christ. These are:


Matthew 24
Mark 13
Luke 17
Luke 21
1 & 2 Thessalonians
Revelation

They all support the teaching that the rapture and the Day of the Lord are simultaneous events.

Acts 2:20-21 also supports the teaching that the Day of the Lord is a day of deliverance:

Acts 2:20-21 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

In summary, the foundation of the pre-tribulation rapture view is assumptions, not scripture. Whereas, the foundation of the pre-wrath rapture view is scripture, not assumptions.

When the text is allowed to speak for itself, when scripture is used to interpret scripture, and when we don't build doctrines on assumptions, the pre-tribulation rapture view is found to be lacking scriptural support, and the pre-wrath view is found to be scripturally supported.

----------

Major sources:

http://www.prewrathministries.org/index.html
http://whowillbeleftbehindandwhen.com/
http://members.aol.com/chursey/prewrath.htm

-----------

I want to add ... I often tell people when this subject comes up that I don't really have an issue with them making assumptions as long as they acknowledge that they are, in fact, assumptions. I do have an issue, however, with dogmatic assertions that their assumptions are true. Their assumptions are no better than my assumptions. That's why we need to go strictly on what scripture teaches (using scripture to interpret scripture). When we do that (disregard assumptions), there's nothing left for pre-trib to stand on.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby burien1 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:24 pm

kazbo wrote:
No, I am not gleeful about this at all. I am actually quite concerned with truth


It's great to be concerned with truth. It's good to present what you think is the truth (a non-pre-trib rapture) to others. By all means, speak the truth in love.

But then leave it to the Holy Spirit to open the other person's eyes as he sees fit. If the other person does not come around to what you think is the truth, then your issue is with the Holy Spirit, not with the person. God is more than able - obviously - to change a person's mind and heart. It's not our job to keep hammering away until we see the results we want to see. Not only is it not our job, but it's incredibly presumptuous to think we can do a better job than God can, and that we know that, how, and when, God wants someone to change their thinking on something.

I've seen you present your views here many times. But you also push and push, and try so hard to convince - has that yielded any fruit? Has it promoted unity? Has it encouraged us pre-tribbers in our faith? I can tell you, from my personal experience, that rather than encouraging me, it's made me feel only attacked, belittled, and tired.

How much more uplifting would it be to hear something like this:

"while I don't believe pre-tribbers are correct in their thinking, I am more than convinced that Jesus is able to keep them from falling and to present them before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy".

Just my "side" - thanks for letting me present it.

Disclaimer: since this is written communication without benefit of tone of voice or facial expression, please know I am not angry with you or scolding you or trying to flame you in any way. :angel:


Well said, Kazbo!!! There`s a big difference between knowledge and wisdom. And the truth we should be passionate about is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, There have always been tares and wheat in the Lord`s Church, and we are already seeing the tares starting to fall, but Jesus will not lose one of his sheep. :banana:

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:55 pm

David L wrote:
savedbygrace wrote:When this does not come true, will he still be regarded as an expert on the subject like the others before him?


I think the answer is obvious. Of course, he'll still be an 'expert'. They'll just chalk up an apology like any good ex-NFL player would after being proven a false prophet. Oops! wrong thread...

People are fascinated by these things. Do you have a link or may I ask of the source for Chuck's prophesying of the rapture going down in '81? That's an eye opener. I'd love to check out the source for myself though. I already knew about the others.

This is pretty well known information, just google it and see how many different hits you get.

Its in Chuck Smith's book titled 'End Times', on page 20 and 35.

Yet the cover of his book 'End Times' he is called a "well known Bible scholar and prophecy teacher". Chuck Smith has been critical of others for date setting, but has done so himself. He even criticized Edgar Whisenant for his book '88 Reasons'. When Edgar Whisenant revised his prediction to the next year 1989, needless to say it didn't sell as well. Chuck Smith was critical of this revision, saying "He was certainly well-intentioned --- including about his revised prediction of September 1989, when September 1988 came and went --- but he was also dead wrong." Well, Chuck revised his prediction a couple of times also, but was also dead wrong. This is the kind of thing that happens when people don't understand the Olivette discourse and the order of events that must occur prior to the rapture.

Here is an interesting link http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/1981
Last edited by savedbygrace on Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:59 pm

I agree- we should all be practicing what we KNOW is the absolute truth of Jesus Christ- abide in Him- Love the Lord God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.

However I disagree that the scriptures are clear about rapture timing- if it were then we wouldn't have anything to disagree about would we?
God could have in His Word plainly spelled it out- that the rapture will happen before the 70th week of Daniel takes place- or that right after the Abomination of Desolation the rapture will happen, or that the rapture will happen as He visibly returns in the sky for the world to see. It is not that simple, obviously. I do not see that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture- while others do. I can show you my scriptural defense for pre-trib- been there and done that more than once- typically that discussion gets sidelined by tangents and never amounts to much. Though I do enjoy the challenge of a good debate once in a while and it gets me to study the Word- so i am not offended by such conversations. Though it does seem to me that those with opposing views are less willing to admit they could be wrong. Whereas it seems- and maybe I'm wrong here, but it just feels that those here with the pre-trib view are a bit less defensive than those that hold differing views- and show a tad more mercy toward them as well. Maybe that's just me who has experienced this attitude.

Back to the original thread - the events of the 6th seal, do not appear to be your normal eclipse cycle, to have both the sun darkened and the moon turn red, may not imply an eclipse at all- it could be a volcanic eruption, with ash obscuring the sky, given the geological changes- aka great- earthquake, it could be. Or it could be a combination of eclipse and something else- or perhaps God who holds all things together will do something supernatural. I think that these eclipses falling on Jewish holidays- may simply just be a sign of coming events and not necessarily the events themselves.

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Ready1 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:20 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:Assumptions inherent in the pre-tribulation rapture view:

1. God cannot (will not) work with both the nation of Israel and the church at the same time, so the church has to be removed prior to the start of Daniel's 70th week.

2. The elect in Matthew 24 is national Israel, therefore Matthew 24 does not apply to the church.

3. "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 signifies the rapture.

4. The Holy Spirit in the church is the restrainer of 2 Thess 2:7

5. The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 become evangelists, resulting in ...

6. A great revival takes place during the tribulation

7. The 24 elders in Revelation represent the church.

8. The great multitude in Revelation 7 represents those who missed the pre-tribulation rapture but became believers during the 70th week.


Just thought I'd take a look at the assumptions of post-trib/pre-wrath

1. God does not distinguish a difference between or work differently with the nation of Israel and the Church, so the Church will continue through a major portion (if not all) of Daniel's 70th week.
2. The elect in Matthew 24 is the Church, therefore Matthew 24:31 is the rapture.
3. "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 signifies a request for John to come and view things yet to be revealed. (Many pretribbers would agree with this as well. Certainly not all view this as 'the rapture' as it is taken out of context.)
4. Someone other than 'the Holy Spirit in the church is the restrainer' of 2 Thess 2:7, preferably Michael.
5. The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 may be of the church or Israel.
6. We or Israel are protected in the dessert when judgment takes place during the tribulation
7. The 24 elders in Revelation represent someone other than the church, possibly 24 High Priests.
8. The great multitude in Revelation 7 represents the church who have been killed for upholding their beliefs during the tribulation during the 70th week.

If these do not accurately portray the assumptions of posttrib/prewrath, please inform me of my error.
Just observing.

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:40 pm

savedbygrace wrote:Here is an interesting link http://calvarychapel.pbwiki.com/1981


Be forewarned, double check anything you read on this site. Some things will be accurate, but some will not be. I do not believe its a Christian ministry, or anything like that. At least, after perusing it for hours at a time, it doesn't seem so to me.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby aaron on Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:31 pm

El Gallo wrote:
Will some number be therefore conditioned to listen to the False Prophets' clever fabrications and shading of truth? Maybe he will explain how everything they were told is just a bit off.


My thoughts too. The people we know that are into the NAR will believe any prophecy given as long as they "bear witness to it." Scary.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:53 pm

Ready1 wrote:Just thought I'd take a look at the assumptions of post-trib/pre-wrath

1. God does not distinguish a difference between or work differently with the nation of Israel and the Church, so the Church will continue through a major portion (if not all) of Daniel's 70th week.
2. The elect in Matthew 24 is the Church, therefore Matthew 24:31 is the rapture.
3. "Come up hither" in Revelation 4:1 signifies a request for John to come and view things yet to be revealed. (Many pretribbers would agree with this as well. Certainly not all view this as 'the rapture' as it is taken out of context.)
4. Someone other than 'the Holy Spirit in the church is the restrainer' of 2 Thess 2:7, preferably Michael.
5. The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 may be of the church or Israel.
6. We or Israel are protected in the dessert when judgment takes place during the tribulation
7. The 24 elders in Revelation represent someone other than the church, possibly 24 High Priests.
8. The great multitude in Revelation 7 represents the church who have been killed for upholding their beliefs during the tribulation during the 70th week.

If these do not accurately portray the assumptions of posttrib/prewrath, please inform me of my error.


1. Pretrib makes an assumption about the ability or desire of God to work with the church and Israel. Prewrath makes no such assumption, and only observes that God IS working in the church and IS working in Israel (1948, 1967, etc).
2. Pretrib makes an assumption about the identity of the elect. Prewrath uses scripture to interpret scripture, and in the New Testament "elect" is the church.
3. Prewrath only reads what the text says ... John is told to "come up hither" and is transported to Heaven "in the spirit." Prewrath makes no assumptions as to what else this could mean.
4. Prewrath acknowledges that the identity of the restrainer cannot be determined from the text. While prewrath says there is scriptural support for Michael being the restrainer, even that is not conclusive enough to be dogmatic about it. Prewrath certainly builds no doctrine based on an assumption of the identity of the restrainer.
5. Prewrath reads the 144,000 to be just what the text says: 12,000 from each tribe. Prewrath assumes no identity beyond what the text says. Prewrath assumes no role of the 144,000 beyond what the text says.
6. I can't speak for post trib. Prewrath does not believe we will be protected during the Great Tribulation. Prewrath believes we will suffer the wrath of satan. This is not an assumption ... it can be supported scripturally.
7. Prewrath makes no assumptions concerning the identity of the 24 elders. The text does not identify them conclusively, so we accept only what the text says ... no assumptions. Prewrath certainly builds no doctrine based on an assumption of the identity of the 24 elders.
8. Prewrath does not identify the multitude of Rev 7 as those that are killed in the Great Tribulation. Prewrath only identifies them the way the text states "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Prewrath reads the text for what it says. If it is not clear, prewrath states the possibilities, but is not dogmatic enough to build a theory upon it.

Pretrib is built on assumptions, and reinforced with types and shadows.

Prewrath is built on scripture.

Pretrib decides what the text could mean before determining what the text actually says. Once you identify what the text actually says, it limits what you could say it means. If you start with "what does it mean" you can assume it means anything you want it to mean (such as, we'll be out of here before it gets bad).

Re: the elect
Matthew was not an eye witness to the Olivet Discourse. Mark tells us that Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately:

In Chapter 13, verses 3 and 4, Mark wrote:And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?


So, Matthew had to hear the Olivet Discourse from Peter, James, John, or Andrew. The question then is, how did Peter, James, John, and Andrew use the term elect (eklektos)? James didn't use the word. We don't have any writings from Andrew. But, Peter and John both used the term eklektos to refer to the church. Paul used eklektos to refer to the church. The elect in Matthew 24 is the church. Scripture interprets scripture. No assumption necessary.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:28 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:1. Pretrib makes an assumption about the ability or desire of God to work with the church and Israel. Prewrath makes no such assumption, and only observes that God IS working in the church and IS working in Israel (1948, 1967, etc).


Pre-trib makes assumptions, while pre-wrath make observations?

Hmmmmm.

You're certain that pre-trib couldn't be making observations?


2. Pretrib makes an assumption about the identity of the elect. Prewrath uses scripture to interpret scripture, and in the New Testament "elect" is the church.


Pre-trib makes assumptions, while pre-wrath uses Scripture to interpret Scripture?


:thinking:
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:33 pm

1. Pretrib makes an assumption about the ability or desire of God to work with the church and Israel. Prewrath makes no such assumption, and only observes that God IS working in the church and IS working in Israel (1948, 1967, etc).
2. Pretrib makes an assumption about the identity of the elect. Prewrath uses scripture to interpret scripture, and in the New Testament "elect" is the church.
3. Prewrath only reads what the text says ... John is told to "come up hither" and is transported to Heaven "in the spirit." Prewrath makes no assumptions as to what else this could mean.
4. Prewrath acknowledges that the identity of the restrainer cannot be determined from the text. While prewrath says there is scriptural support for Michael being the restrainer, even that is not conclusive enough to be dogmatic about it. Prewrath certainly builds no doctrine based on an assumption of the identity of the restrainer.
5. Prewrath reads the 144,000 to be just what the text says: 12,000 from each tribe. Prewrath assumes no identity beyond what the text says. Prewrath assumes no role of the 144,000 beyond what the text says.
6. I can't speak for post trib. Prewrath does not believe we will be protected during the Great Tribulation. Prewrath believes we will suffer the wrath of satan. This is not an assumption ... it can be supported scripturally.
7. Prewrath makes no assumptions concerning the identity of the 24 elders. The text does not identify them conclusively, so we accept only what the text says ... no assumptions. Prewrath certainly builds no doctrine based on an assumption of the identity of the 24 elders.
8. Prewrath does not identify the multitude of Rev 7 as those that are killed in the Great Tribulation. Prewrath only identifies them the way the text states "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."


I am pre-trib and I can agree with everything you have stated here, accept that I believe that those Christians who resemble the Philadelphian believer will be kept from the hour of testing, via the "rapture" before the 70th week begins and I can defend this scripturally and have. Those who say they are Christians but are hearers of the Word rather than doers, these will go into the tribulation to repent and be refined- so I believe that both the Church and Israel will have a role to play during the final 7 years. See we agree with each other on many things, isn't that great!

In brotherly love

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:41 pm

mark s wrote:You're certain that pre-trib couldn't be making observations?


The destruction of the temple in 70AD was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.
The rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 (in a single day) was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.
The regaining of Jerusalem in 1967 was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.

We can look in history and see that God does fulfill Jewish prophecy while the church is present on earth. To say that He won't continue to do so during the 70th week is an assumption.

What have you observed that confirms that God cannot/will not fulfill Jewish prophecy while the church is present?

Mark s wrote:Pre-trib makes assumptions, while pre-wrath uses Scripture to interpret Scripture?


Correct.
2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:49 pm

Resurrection Torchlight wrote:I agree- we should all be practicing what we KNOW is the absolute truth of Jesus Christ- abide in Him- Love the Lord God with all your heart soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself.


:amen:

However I disagree that the scriptures are clear about rapture timing- if it were then we wouldn't have anything to disagree about would we?


I'd reply - obviously! :grin:

I do not see that the gathering in Matthew 24 is the rapture- while others do.
Yes, others do. I think that the plain reading of the text prohibits it . . .

I can show you my scriptural defense for pre-trib- been there and done that more than once- typically that discussion gets sidelined by tangents and never amounts to much.
I find it almost impossible to keep such a debate on a positive direction, and sticking with the issues. It seems to me that something comes up that can't be answered, and rather than stick with it until a proper conclusion, people will dart away to a diferent issue. Or it just gets so bogged down with personal characterizations.

Though I do enjoy the challenge of a good debate once in a while and it gets me to study the Word- so i am not offended by such conversations. Though it does seem to me that those with opposing views are less willing to admit they could be wrong. Whereas it seems- and maybe I'm wrong here, but it just feels that those here with the pre-trib view are a bit less defensive than those that hold differing views- and show a tad more mercy toward them as well. Maybe that's just me who has experienced this attitude.
That's what I love about the debates also, it gets me deeper into the Word, and I get to hear other viewpoints.

To me, the love and gentleness that comes through peoples posts speaks volumes. Its also very meaningful to me whether or not a person will stick to a particular point until we can either come to agreement, or understand exactly why we disagree. But so often, before we can get that specific, the subject gets changed, the tone becomes personal, and we just can't get that far.

OBXBob and I have had some terrific debates on rapture timing, getting very detailed at times. Through these I've truly grown in understanding both his view and mine. We've been able to get that specific about the issues, and have been able to identify those particular places that he interprets this way, and I interpret that way, or whatever it may be.

Back to the original thread - the events of the 6th seal, do not appear to be your normal eclipse cycle, to have both the sun darkened and the moon turn red, may not imply an eclipse at all- it could be a volcanic eruption, with ash obscuring the sky, given the geological changes- aka great- earthquake, it could be. Or it could be a combination of eclipse and something else- or perhaps God who holds all things together will do something supernatural. I think that these eclipses falling on Jewish holidays- may simply just be a sign of coming events and not necessarily the events themselves.

RT
That's what I think. I don't thing the darkening of everything at the second coming, or the blood moon of the 6th seal, will be a currently scheduled eclipse. I think these things will go way beyond those.

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:07 pm

jgilberAZ wrote:
mark s wrote:You're certain that pre-trib couldn't be making observations?


The destruction of the temple in 70AD was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.
The rebirth of the nation of Israel in 1948 (in a single day) was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.
The regaining of Jerusalem in 1967 was a fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, correct? The church was present.

We can look in history and see that God does fulfill Jewish prophecy while the church is present on earth. To say that He won't continue to do so during the 70th week is an assumption.


Did God expel Israel from their land in fulfillment of prophecy, to be taken to Babylon, while the church was present?

Did God bring Israel back from their land in fulfillment of prophecy, from Babylon, while the church was present?

Did God cause Jesus to be born, King of the Jews, in fulfillment of prophecy, while the church was present?

I could continue, but this will serve to demonstrate my point. God fulfills prophecies made to Israel with or without the church being present. The two are not actually intrinsically related.

The church (realizing that we use that word a little differently) does not need be present for God to keep a promise to Israel. Likewise, God keeping a promise, or fulfilling a prophecy to Israel does not necessitate that the church is present.


What have you observed that confirms that God cannot/will not fulfill Jewish prophecy while the church is present?


You could add to your list, "does not" (cannot/will not/does not), but then, that would be less provocative.

Well, there is the entire history of Israel up till that certain Pentecost, or, if you wish, whenever you define that the church began. Or do you consider as some do that the church began with Adam?

Its not a matter, in my opinion, of whether God "can", more a matter of whether He will or won't - of whether that's how it works out. If He says, "I'm going to do this, and then do that," I don't have to make a hard and fast rule, He has to do this before that, I can simply go with what He says, this will happen before that.

If your refutation is, "how can you say God can't/won't do that before this?", I'm not trying to define what God can and can't do, just what I observe the text saying.

Mark s wrote:Pre-trib makes assumptions, while pre-wrath uses Scripture to interpret Scripture?


Correct.
For myself, I would call this a "sweeping generalization". But I understand that this is your opinion.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Ready1 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:52 pm

Right now I only have time for a big :bounce:

Back tomorrow...
Just observing.

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:57 pm

Me too . . . :bounce:

See ya tomorrow!
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby peanutsrnuts on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:04 pm

I don't believe Pastor Mark has been teaching that the rapture is to take place in just a few weeks.

He said,

" As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show! "

" If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this: It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong."

To get a better context for these quotes see link below and the paragraphs I've included.

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/stipulation.html

" From reading some of the blogs, I find people are really misunderstanding what I said and what I am trying to say. It may be because of different definitions of terms. First off, concerning the rapture, never do I mention the word. When I talk about the second coming I am not referring to the rapture but to Messiah’s feet landing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14. I am not setting dates for the rapture. The only dates I am giving is the dates Nasa gives us for eclipses and the dates God gives us on His calendar and then I bring in the connection. You can do whatever you want according to your own theology with this information. With much humor I say, “Put it in your own theological pipe and smoke it however you want.”

I did say, and again say, IF these eclipses in 2015 are what the Lord was referring to, then 2015 would look like a possible year for His feet to land on the Mt of Olives. And, IF this is true then the tribulation could, not would, start this fall at the Feast of Trumpets, (which technically is 2 days long: KJV Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only). In light of all the prophetic events going on I would say it is likely but I’m not saying definitely. [b]As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show![/b] "

He also said,
" [b]If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this: It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong.[/b] If your house is on fire and you escape are you satisfied that you are out or will you do all you can to get your children out as well? With any fire there are people rushing out and firemen rushing in. I guess it depends on what you feel you’re calling is. I don’t remember who, but someone said (and now in a popular song):

“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell;
but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”

That is my motto. If the Lord wants to keep me here during the tribulation on a mission run, I’m happy to stay. If He wants me out, then I’m happy to go! It’s not my will or rapture theology that will take me or leave me but His will."

End of quotation from posted link .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby SueAnn on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:14 pm

peanutsrnuts wrote:" If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this: It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong."


I love this part the most. No matter what your beliefs are about the rapture, you are saved by Jesus' blood. Period. Being wrong about rapture timing has no consequence in the eyes of Jesus.

Which is really good for me since I am thoroughly confused about rapture timing. :wink:
ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 12
وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:17 am

peanutsrnuts wrote:I don't believe Pastor Mark has been teaching that the rapture is to take place in just a few weeks.


Mark Biltz has had to write statements on his site in order to try and remove himself from the appearance of date setting, but that is not the impression I had in the video. In watching the video interview he did with Prophecy in the News, I saw three emphatic pre-tribbers elatedly discussing the timing of the rapture being now, 7 years prior to the the final solar eclipse on Tishri 1, 2015 (Rosh Hashanah).

Biltz explains 2007 is the end of a 7 year sabbatical cycle. The next 7 year cycle begins Sept 29-30, 2008- Rosh Hashanah. J R Church asks, "Could this (the upcoming 7 year cycle) be Daniel's 70th week?". They are all excited about the implications of the rapture happening soon. At one point after discussing the implications of these signs in 2015, Church says "It's time for the Messiah to show up, right?". Mark Biltz replies with a joyful "YES!". Half way through the video Biltz says, "What's fascinating is,... if these things (lunar/solar signs) happened in Matthew and Luke at the end of the tribulation period, and that's 2015, you back off 7 years, that puts 2008 as a very critical year." Exactly. You mean Rosh Hashanah, Sept 29-30, 2008. You just described it in detail. Please Mr. Biltz, show me in the bible where Jesus said to count backward 7 years, as you just stated, from the signs in the sun/moon and stars and that's when the rapture would occur. You've just cleverly added yourself to the long list of inaccurate date setters for the rapture. Your message is clear.

If he is truly neutral, where is the disavowal (denial of any connection with or knowledge of) the pre-trib rapture on his video and audio presentations? Where are his disclaimers about his rapture position and the implications behind this video? This kind of thing could put a lot of people on the edge of their spiritual seats and cause a lot of disappointment when it doesn't happen. If Mark Biltz is trying to remain unbiased about this information, why did he join with two well-known pre-tribbers to present it to people? Why does he continually go to pre-trib churches to share this information?

Mark Biltz says "...we need to watch, and the conditions are very favorable for the Tribulation to begin this fall, and we need to be watching". His message is that we should be watching (for the rapture). This is not the message Jesus gave. He said there would be wars, famines, pestilences, false prophets deceiving many people, and when you see the abomination that causes desolation there will be great distress unequaled from the beginning of the world until now. And then he said the signs would occur with the sun/moon/stars/heavenly bodies, and then you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great glory. These guys have it backwards. They are putting the rapture before these upcoming cosmic signs. IMO, it is a misrepresentation of scripture when they only presented Matthew 24:29, but did not read verse 30 to see what happens after those signs Jesus referred to in the sun, moon and stars.

Church adds, "We are not issuing a warning, we are issuing a tribulation watch." Another fallacy, there is no 7 year tribulation period described in the bible. It is 3.5 years, 1260 days, time/times/half a time according to scripture.

In the end summary Church says, "We are looking for the rapture and the resurrection, and then at the end of the 7 year tribulation period, Jesus is coming back in power and great glory. He's going to come to Jerusalem, and then when He gets there in chapter 20 of Revelations, He raises the dead. Do YOU want to be in the resurrection?" Wait a minute, I thought the rapture and resurrection had already happened 7 years before this...you just said it... now you are combining the physical coming of Christ near the end of the 7 years with the rapture/resurrection? Maybe we have more in common about end times than I thought.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby bsheahan on Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:56 am

Thanks for the nice summary, savedbygrace! These beliefs can be so subtle, but you have a sharp and keen eye on that - um, discernment? LOL. Sounds to me as such.

You were able to pick out the details and discuss them with relation to scripture and that was great. Thanks again.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby jgilberAZ on Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:48 am

mark s wrote:I could continue, but this will serve to demonstrate my point. God fulfills prophecies made to Israel with or without the church being present. The two are not actually intrinsically related.


Exactly my point as well.

The pretribulational view of dispensationalism is that God's dealings with Israel stopped when Jesus was resurrected, and will not start again until the church is removed. Pretrib views God's dealings with Israel as 'on hold' until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled (and the church removed). Pretrib views the Jewish prophetic clock as 'stopped' until it is restarted again by the removal of the church (end of the church age). This is an assumption that lacks biblical support. That was my point ... the assumption. I was not trying to debate whether or not "God fulfills prophecies made to Israel with or without the church being present." I was just pointing out the assumption in the pretrib camp that the church must be removed before God returns his attention to Israel during the 70th week.

In my first post, I wrote:1. God cannot (will not) work with both the nation of Israel and the church at the same time, so the church has to be removed prior to the start of Daniel's 70th week.


I'm glad to see you agree it is an assumption that lacks biblical support.
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The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:21 am

peanutsrnuts wrote:I don't believe Pastor Mark has been teaching that the rapture is to take place in just a few weeks.

He said,

" As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show! "

" If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this: It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong."

To get a better context for these quotes see link below and the paragraphs I've included.

http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/stipulation.html

" From reading some of the blogs, I find people are really misunderstanding what I said and what I am trying to say. It may be because of different definitions of terms. First off, concerning the rapture, never do I mention the word. When I talk about the second coming I am not referring to the rapture but to Messiah’s feet landing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14. I am not setting dates for the rapture. The only dates I am giving is the dates Nasa gives us for eclipses and the dates God gives us on His calendar and then I bring in the connection. You can do whatever you want according to your own theology with this information. With much humor I say, “Put it in your own theological pipe and smoke it however you want.”

I did say, and again say, IF these eclipses in 2015 are what the Lord was referring to, then 2015 would look like a possible year for His feet to land on the Mt of Olives. And, IF this is true then the tribulation could, not would, start this fall at the Feast of Trumpets, (which technically is 2 days long: KJV Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only). In light of all the prophetic events going on I would say it is likely but I’m not saying definitely. As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show! "

He also said,
" If you want my own personal view of the rapture it is this: It’s not even on my radar! I’m not focused on it, I am focused on the mission at hand. I will work till Messiah comes. Believe me He will take whoever He wants to take, whenever He wants to take them and no one will lose points for being wrong. If your house is on fire and you escape are you satisfied that you are out or will you do all you can to get your children out as well? With any fire there are people rushing out and firemen rushing in. I guess it depends on what you feel you’re calling is. I don’t remember who, but someone said (and now in a popular song):

“Some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell;
but I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell!”

That is my motto. If the Lord wants to keep me here during the tribulation on a mission run, I’m happy to stay. If He wants me out, then I’m happy to go! It’s not my will or rapture theology that will take me or leave me but His will."

End of quotation from posted link .


Yeah, that's what I remember. I don't think he's datesetting.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 11, 2008 8:24 am

savedbygrace wrote:If he is truly neutral, where is the disavowal (denial of any connection with or knowledge of) the pre-trib rapture on his video and audio presentations? Where are his disclaimers about his rapture position and the implications behind this video?


" From reading some of the blogs, I find people are really misunderstanding what I said and what I am trying to say. It may be because of different definitions of terms. First off, concerning the rapture, never do I mention the word. When I talk about the second coming I am not referring to the rapture but to Messiah’s feet landing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14. I am not setting dates for the rapture. The only dates I am giving is the dates Nasa gives us for eclipses and the dates God gives us on His calendar and then I bring in the connection. You can do whatever you want according to your own theology with this information. With much humor I say, “Put it in your own theological pipe and smoke it however you want.”

I did say, and again say, IF these eclipses in 2015 are what the Lord was referring to, then 2015 would look like a possible year for His feet to land on the Mt of Olives. And, IF this is true then the tribulation could, not would, start this fall at the Feast of Trumpets, (which technically is 2 days long: KJV Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only). In light of all the prophetic events going on I would say it is likely but I’m not saying definitely. As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show! "
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:00 am

jgilberAZ wrote:
mark s wrote:I could continue, but this will serve to demonstrate my point. God fulfills prophecies made to Israel with or without the church being present. The two are not actually intrinsically related.


Exactly my point as well.


Then we agree. :grin: God is perfectly capable of dealing with the church, and with Israel, completely independently of each other. God's dealings with them could be intertwined, or could be separately, we simply need to go to the Scriptures to see what it says will happen.

Now, if we find Scripture indicates that there is a separation, and some kind of "handing over the torch", then we'd have to conclude that there is in fact Scriptural support, and this is not simply a matter of making unfounded assumptions.

This is why I keep returning to Matt 24:31 and Matt 25:32. The Chosen, and the Nations, each being gathered. The Chosen gathered to their Messiah, the Nations being gathered to be separated, saved from unsaved. A perfect fit to the OT prophesies, a perfect fit to the Jewish understanding of who the Chosen and the Nations are (Jew and Gentile).

There is a parable Jesus told:

Luke 20:15-16
(15) And throwing him out of the vineyard, they killed him. Therefore, what will the lord of the vineyard do to them?
(16) He will come and will destroy these vinedressers and will give the vineyard to others. And hearing this, they said, Let it not be!

Many see this as relevant to this topic. The did in fact kill the Son, He did in fact throw them out of the vineyard, and He did in fact give the vineyard to others.

There is the 70 week. The 69th week, when Messiah is cut off. A space of time before the 70th week. A time when that "prophetic clock", as you say, stops, then starts, ticking.

Romans 11:25 is frequently mentioned regarding this.

Romans 11:25-27
(25) For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be wise within yourselves, that hardness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the nations comes in;
(26) and so all Israel will be saved, even as it has been written, "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
(27) And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Isa. 59:20, 21

These are simply a few of the passages that many people (not the view - there are many variations of pre-trib, just as there are of pre-wrath, and a "view" does not have "views") point to as a part of this discussion.

Now, we can debate the correct interpretation of this passages - and we do. We can debate the relevance to the topic - and we do. But I can't help but feel like you're putting words in my mouth that don't quite fit there when you write:

I'm glad to see you agree it is an assumption that lacks biblical support.


Your claim seems to be that people make an assumption without Biblical support, that being that God "cannot" "deal" with Israel and the church at the same time. I'm certain that you can find people who say that. But based on what I've heard taught, I think in general that that's a mis-characterization, personally. Basically, I think people interpret Scripture differently than you do, that's all.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Pretzelogical on Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:02 am

"Only a few more weeks..."

I see we all agree that statements like these hurt our witness to the Lost! UGH! I also think there is great potential for the pre-trib view to hurt the cause of Christ, should it be wrong. However, if the pre-wrath view is wrong, no harm done. Therefore, I do think this is a huge deal as in: "If You are the Christ come down off the cross!" = "If the Bible is true, why are you still here?" Just as it took three days for the cross/resurrection to make sense, so it will take three years for the rapture/Day of the Lord to be understood. Until then, let us not lead anyone astray. Obviously, setting the date has lead many away from God. For a Christian to teach the pre-trib as scripture, the scriptures need to be evident of that testimony. On the other hand, to teach pre-wrath, offer hope, watch for the Lord's appearing...all this matches who God says He is and has demonstrated Himself to be throughout scripture. He is with us through the trial, never to forsake us or leave us. Why would the God who never changes decide to change by taking His people out of the trial and fiery darts of the evil one? There is overwhelming evidence that the God we worship leaves us in the trial, but saves us from His wrath (7 bowl judgements). Satan is the one who offers quick-relief schemes repeatedly. God never does. We learn more of God in a trial. To go through the tribulation would be to know Him incredibly more than we do now! Praise Him! It is my opinion that the pre-trib view is too risky a stance to take concerning the truth of the Gospel for unbelievers.

It is interesting that the pre-trib view did not become popular until a hundred years ago at a seminary that is now "rethinking" that view in light of the scriptures.

I thank our God that all of you love the Lord's appearing!
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:05 am

Pretzelogical wrote: I also think there is great potential for the pre-trib view to hurt the cause of Christ, should it be wrong. However, if the pre-wrath view is wrong, no harm done.


Wouldn't it be fair to say that any incorrect doctrine has detrimental effects?

While a pre-trib view, if pre-wrath is true, can leave people confused for a time about what might be happening, as the 70th week unfolds around them, isn't it also true that a pre-wrath view, if pre-trib is true, can allow people to misinterpret events?

There are those who think that Satan will attempt to mimic the second coming in the AoD. For Satan to pull that off, he'd also have to mimic the AoD, at the beginning of the 70th week. And to do that, he'd have to mimic the start of the 70th week 3.5 years before it actually starts. A person who is expecting to be removed by the beginning of the 70th week would tend to look more critically at events that appeared to signal the beginning of the week than might the person who is expecting to be here for it.

And, imo, no doctrine exists in a vacuum. What we believe in one area affects what we believe in other areas. There are effects in others areas of belief and practice.

Of course, not to say that any particular person will respond in any particular way. And personally, I think this has more to do with the unbeliever than the believer. I believe the born again are guarded by God, and anything we're mistaken about, He'll correct us, and keep us safe.

But I caution against taking a pragmatic view of Scriptural interpretation.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Exit40 on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:13 am

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I just want to look at a few realities that 'might be' about this passage. This first part could be describing a full solar eclipse. When the moon is at it's closest to planet earth it can cover the sun completely, darkening it, so that no part of it shines. Coincidentally, the moon is also not giving it's light at this time as we are looking at the dark side. Also, when the moon is at it's furthest distance from planet earth it doesn't completely cover the sun in a eclipse so some of it shines through at the edges, known as the ring of fire, I believe. The closer to earth the moon is durng an eclipse the more of the sun gets covered, even to covering it completely when the moon is at it's closest. The information about the distance of the moon from earth durng these events should be readily available so we can know how much of the sun will be covered. This also cannot be the sun black as sackcloth, and the blood red moon because although it could be said the sun portion is correct the moon cannot be blood red because we can only see it's outline from the dark side, not any light shining on it, except possibly earth shine which I don't believe is enough to color the moon anything but light colors, as in barely reflected sunlight. As for volcanic or other smoke covering to cause this, no. If you have ever been downwind of a fire you might look up to see an orange sun, and likely not see the moon at all, it's just to dim to shine through the smoke.

But first there must be the Great Tribulation. Where is the evidence that this has occured ? And where is the evidence that the GT lasts for 3.5 years ? It must for the second set of events to occur when they do, so where is the Scripture that supports this ? Doesn't this supposition also state the bowls and trumpets must occur simutaneously, in order for the end to be at the time of these events ? This supposition seems to support post-trib more than pre-trib, honestly, but that also seems to be just my take on it.

The second part of this passage seems to state the obvious to me, this is the end. Stars falling from heaven ? Powers of heaven shaken ? Does this happen during the first set of events or the last set of events ? Scripture states the heavens are for signs and seasons. It is difficult to believe the timing of these events could be anything but a sign of some kind, but the rapture ? It's more than likely some Christians will come to make such an event of this that when it doesn't happen other people will look at them with disdain and discount Christians as foolish. There are just too, too many prophecies that haven't been and aren't being fulfilled for this to have real meaning. Of course, the Lord can perform a quick work, but until there is more evidence we should be a little more cautious about going off on the deep end with this, don't you think ? I see this more likely as a precursor to the falling away, possibly, not saying it is. Only time will tell, but it seems more likely we will lose marginal Christians if there is no rapture as suggested, and if the foundation of their belief is being raptured out to avoid tribulation, I mean the GT, and if they have interpreted this to be the rapture timing event.

Just something to think about. Oh, and anything to start another rapture debate, right ? Nevetheless, it's good to see such great attitudes here at this forum, mostly speaking in love toward each other.

God Bless You

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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:32 am

mark s wrote:
savedbygrace wrote:If he is truly neutral, where is the disavowal (denial of any connection with or knowledge of) the pre-trib rapture on his video and audio presentations? Where are his disclaimers about his rapture position and the implications behind this video?


" From reading some of the blogs, I find people are really misunderstanding what I said and what I am trying to say. It may be because of different definitions of terms. First off, concerning the rapture, never do I mention the word. When I talk about the second coming I am not referring to the rapture but to Messiah’s feet landing on the Mt of Olives in Zech 14. I am not setting dates for the rapture. The only dates I am giving is the dates Nasa gives us for eclipses and the dates God gives us on His calendar and then I bring in the connection. You can do whatever you want according to your own theology with this information. With much humor I say, “Put it in your own theological pipe and smoke it however you want.”

I did say, and again say, IF these eclipses in 2015 are what the Lord was referring to, then 2015 would look like a possible year for His feet to land on the Mt of Olives. And, IF this is true then the tribulation could, not would, start this fall at the Feast of Trumpets, (which technically is 2 days long: KJV Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only). In light of all the prophetic events going on I would say it is likely but I’m not saying definitely. As far as the rapture, if you’re pretrib then 2008 could be interesting, if you’re midtrib, 2012 could be interesting, if you’re prewrath then 2014 might be interesting, if you’re a posttribber then 2015 might be interesting and if you’re amillennial just sit back and watch the show! "


Yes I am aware of these on his website. But if you notice, they were posted as a result of confusion and comments on other blogs he had read, and those blog criticisms were because of what he said in his video with Prophecy in the News earlier. These disclaimers were written as a response to these criticisms, to remove himself from date setting, but these disclaimers are no where on his video. It is clear what his message is about the timing of the rapture, regardless of what he puts in the fine print.
Last edited by savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:41 am

mark s wrote:
Pretzelogical wrote:
There are those who think that Satan will attempt to mimic the second coming in the AoD. For Satan to pull that off, he'd also have to mimic the AoD, at the beginning of the 70th week. And to do that, he'd have to mimic the start of the 70th week 3.5 years before it actually starts. A person who is expecting to be removed by the beginning of the 70th week would tend to look more critically at events that appeared to signal the beginning of the week than might the person who is expecting to be here for it.
Hi Mark, it would be a lack of perception on my part if I was duped into believing a fake AoD or temple being re-built. Either Satan will set himself in the temple and exalt himself above all other gods/ demand to be worshiped and will start killing Christians at the midpoint of the 70th week, or he won't. There is no mimicking these in my opinion.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Mark F on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:50 am

I agree with those who see Israel and the Church as two seperate groups, yet God is working simultainiously with each, and I believe it is with different plans and purposes for each.

I will state I am pre-trib, I cannot say I am settled within my mind as to when God's judgment actually begins. On one hand I could say it will be at the 3.5 year point the AOD, but on the other from Dan 9:24: “ Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city,..." seems to indicate that the 70th week concerns only Israel and the Nations in their proximity.

I remain steadfast in my belief based upon what I believe about the following questions:

1) What is the "Time of Jacob's trouble, The Great Tribulation, or the 70th week of Daniel meant to accomplish?

2) Who are the peoples involved and are they literally named?

3) By understanding the very nature of the believer that is in Christ Jesus does it conflict with our position (in Christ) to expect to be subject to the same events and intended outcome of question 1?


To add further there are two direct statements from Jesus that tells us that we can be spared this time of trouble,

Luke 21:36
"Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Rev 3:10
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

These two verses stand on their own from the mouth of the Lord that there are some who will escape, even if you cannot reason it out in your mind how.

1 Thess 1:9-10
"For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Doctines are built on three mentions in Scripture, this to me is conclusive that some will be taken before the time of wrath, when exactly is the more difficult question. So the choice is yours to make, ignore the plain meaning of these texts and continue declaring that we are wrong, or walk by faith that He will accomplish this for those who are truly His. Those who are:

Eph 5:29-32

"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church."
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

Edited for a friend.
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby mark s on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:52 am

savedbygrace wrote: Hi Mark, it would be a lack of perception on my part if I was duped into believing a fake AoD or temple being re-built. Either Satan will set himself in the temple and exalt himself above all other gods/ demand to be worshiped and will start killing Christians at the midpoint of the 70th week, or he won't. There is no mimicking these in my opinion.


Yeah, we have to stick with the full and exact fulfillments to be certain.

For those who are willing to spiritualize, or allegorize, or other-ize Scripture, they might be more likely to bend a passage to make it fit what they think they are seeing.

But again, I'm more thinking of those who aren't actually born again . . .
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:59 am

mark s wrote: ... or other-ize Scripture, . . .
:lol:
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby Pretzelogical on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:23 am

Wouldn't it be fair to say that any incorrect doctrine has detrimental effects?

Yep!
Let's discuss if the pre-trib view is dangerous to our witness to the Lost in the end times?

"I think this has more to do with the unbeliever…"

That is my point exactly. Though we delight in correctly dividing the word, unbelievers need to be saved by it. Some doctrine is obscure to onlookers. Some won't matter for salvation at the end. However, I am thinking that is not the case with pre-trib view because it is now definitely well-known throughout all public sectors, thanks, in part, to the "Left Behind" sweep across the media. If the pre-trib view is wrong, Satan causing all hell to break loose in the tribulation - and that is how the text reads to me!-the Lost are not going to be asking Christians to redefine their pre-trib doctrine. They will be done with Bible. They will say "Where is Your Jesus, you fool who believed He would save you from this?" They will see Christians were wrong about the Bible, and Anti-Christ has it all down pat with signs and wonders that don't require believing in what they see as faith in nonsense. (We see it going on today with *Christians* believing false prophesy all the time, and the Lost *know better* than to get messed up with the Bible.) If however, Christians make no such claims as pre-trib, but only look for the Lord's appearing, holding fast to the faith, then perhaps the Lost will come to faith too. To say God will do something, and then, if it turns out He doesn't, that would be disastrous to our testimony of truth that Jesus is God. Therefore, the pre-trib view must be built on much more scripture for me to take the risk of destroying my testimony of Christ because of holding to a pre-trib view.

I had a check-out gal at Walmart ask me about the Left Behind books/movie when that was the big deal. (Numerous people did, as I'm sure God gave you opportunities for the Gospel in it too.) With her eyes darting back-and-forth to make sure no one heard her she asked, "Does the Bible really say you Christians will be taken to heaven while the world comes to an end?" I asked her if she was looking to Christ to save her from that disaster. She said yes, as it scared her to death. I told her that I knew Christians now going through terrible trials and God is with them through it, hating the evil in the world that brought on the trial. But He doesn't take them out of it. As people who know their sins are evil and deserving of God's wrath, they begged for His mercy and help. God is with them in everything. God will not pour His wrath out on those who call on Him ready to turn from sinning. But He does allow evil to happen to us all. Jesus said He was God…" I did not address the pre-trib issue, but the sin issue. The movie was used of God to bring her to Him.
Whether pre-trib is correct or not, God works through those who praise Him! As we say in the Midwest, "Y'all are mighty good at that", and it blesses me!

"…But I caution against…"
??? Some of us are slow…what does this mean???
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:32 am

Mark F wrote:
Doctines are built on three mentions in Scripture,
Hi Mark F, thank you for your contribution to the discussion. I enjoy reading your posts. In reference to your statement above, I believe God requires truth to be established by two or three witnesses. Not by 2 or 3 proof texts. The ones you have listed are classic verses which some pre-tribbers claim as evidence for their position, but these are debatable. I especially like the one in Luke 21:36, but I also remember the Israelites were protected from the plagues on the Egyptians without necessarily being removed from out of them. The plagues are a type of foreshadow of things to come in the end of the age. I have to take the rest of the numerous passages which are contrary to a pre-trib rapture, and harmonize Luke 21:36 with the rest of scripture.

Revelations 3:10 is a verse even some pre-trib scholars have admitted cannot support any particular timing on the rapture. I also view this as a verse which must be harmonized with the majority of scripture, because there are no contradictions in God's word. These verses stand alone, and they are outnumbered by post-persecution deliverance passages in the bible.

What do you think it means to 'stand before the Son of Man'? (Luke 21:36)

What gives us any idea Rev 3:10 is addressed to anyone other than those who were in the early Christian church of Philadelphia? And why do you think Christ pre-faced this verse with "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently.." He also says, "... hold on to what you have so that no man may take your crown..." and "...him who overcomes I will make a pillar in my temple." This verse is surrounded with a picture of saints who must endure until the end. Just like Jesus said in Matthew 24:13 "But he who endure to the end will be saved."

blessings,
Jake
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Re: Only a few more weeks until the rapture

Postby savedbygrace on Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:38 am

Excellent posts pretzelogical, thank you for sharing your thoughts! Some excellent points about what the unbelievers will think if pre-trib does not come true. They don't need another excuse to claim we are a bunch of phonies. That one would be huge...
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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