Turkey part deaux :)

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Turkey part deaux :)

Postby Lookfortruth on Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:46 am

This is a continuation of the original thread that grew too large from here:
http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=2322

Here is the last page:
http://fulfilledprophecy.com/bb/viewtop ... start=1600
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Postby Seeker on Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:37 am

Let's see where were we...oh yes...lol

Peace,
Seeker

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Turkish General Warns US Over Ties

By C. ONUR ANT – 1 hour ago

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Turkey's top general warned that ties with the U.S., already strained by attacks from rebels hiding in Iraq, will be irreversibly damaged if Congress passes a resolution that labels the World War I-era killings of Armenians a genocide.

Turkey, which is a major cargo hub for U.S. and allied military forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, has recalled its ambassador to Washington for consultations and warned that there might be a cut in the logistical support to the U.S. over the issue.

Gen. Yasar Buyukanit told daily Milliyet newspaper that a congressional committee's approval of the measure had already harmed ties between the two countries.

"If this resolution passed in the committee passes the House as well, our military ties with the U.S. will never be the same again," Buyukanit was quoted as saying by Milliyet.

"I'm the military chief, I deal with security issues. I'm not a politician," Buyukanit was quoted as saying by Milliyet. "In this regard, the U.S. shot its own foot."

President Bush has said the resolution is the wrong response to the Armenian deaths, but House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said the measure's timing was important "because many of the survivors are very old."

"It is a statement made by 23 other countries. We would be the 24th country to make this statement. Genocide still exists, and we saw it in Rwanda; we see it now in Darfur," she told ABC's "This Week" in an interview broadcast Sunday.

But Rep. John Boehner, R-Ohio, said the measure was "irresponsible."

"Listen, there's no question that the suffering of the Armenian people some 90 years ago was extreme. But what happened 90 years ago ought to be a subject for historians to sort out, not politicians here in Washington," he told "Fox News Sunday."

About 70 percent of U.S. air cargo headed for Iraq goes through Turkey as does about one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military there. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies carried in overland by Turkish truckers who cross into Iraq's northern Kurdish region.

In addition, C-17 cargo planes fly military supplies to U.S. soldiers in remote areas of Iraq from Incirlik, avoiding the use of Iraqi roads vulnerable to bomb attacks. U.S. officials say the arrangement helps reduce American casualties.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has "urged restraint" from Turkey and sent two high-ranking officials to Ankara in an apparent attempt to ease fury over the measure which could be voted on by the House by the end of the year."......

Associated Press
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:44 am

Double posted for some reason....edit to remove
Last edited by Seeker on Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Seeker
 
Posts: 2165
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:32 pm

Postby Seeker on Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:45 am

Here's a copy of the original work leading to Turkey. It was written in 2005 and a bit out of date but still valid for the most part. Of course much more could be added now.

Peace,
Seeker

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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Case for the AC Rising from Turkey

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I'll try to provide a basic overview of the scripture and research that backs the theory of Turkey being the nation the AC arises from. This will be a summary of information contained in a number of threads that helped develop the Turkey theory. Many aspects related to the theory have already been discussed in those threads.

Satan's Seat

The most direct link of Turkey to scripture is contained in Rev 2. Pergamos was one of the seven churches addressed in the first part of the book of Revelation. Those 7 churches were all located in Turkey at the time when John wrote the words in Revelation, given to him by our Lord and Savior Christ Jesus. The isle of Patmos where John was exiled to was just off the western coast of Turkey. These were physical churches full of believers living in what we know as modern day Turkey.

Revelation 1

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

I will spend a little time on a few of the other churches before getting back to Pergamos. This will help us understand the conditions in the area that the earliest churches lived in. The church at Ephesus was praised for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitanes. These deeds would be considered against Jesus thus for Satan.

Ephesus

6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate.

"The church at Ephesus (Rev. 2:6) is commended for hating the "deeds" of the Nicolaitanes, and the church of Pergamos is blamed for having them who hold their "doctrines" (15). They were seemingly a class of professing Christians, who sought to introduce into the church a false freedom or licentiousness, thus abusing Paul's doctrine of grace (compare 2 Pet. 2:15, 16, 19), and were probably identical with those who held the doctrine of Baalam (q.v.), Rev. 2:14."

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/nicolaitanes.html

Jesus tells us through John that there existed in Smyrna a group of Jews that He described as "the synagogue of Satan". This indicates that the powers of Satan were live and active in the Smyrna (Turkey) region.

Smyrna

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Thyatira was rebuked for fornication and eating things sacrificed unto idols. So we have more things we know are Satanic inspired. They are praised for "not" knowing the depths of Satan. The Satanic influence is again shown to be prevalent in that small western edge of Turkey where these 7 churches were located.

Thyatira

20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.


In Philadelphia the synagogue of Satan is mentioned again.

Philadelphia

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Pergamos is the city that has a direct reference to Satan dwelling there. John tells us directly that Pergamos is where the seat of Satan is and where Satan dwells. The Babylonian priests preserved the Babylonian religion after the fall of Babylon. First in the Persia-Media empire of Daniel 8 and then it was passed on to the Greek empire. After the breakup of the Greek empire, following Alexander’s death, the Babylonian priests fled the Romans to Pergamos to preserve the religion. From Pergamos it infiltrated into the early harlot Christian churches, the Jews labeled as the synagogue of Satan, and influenced Islam. In a sense Turkey could be related to the "mother of harlots and abominations". The abominations as described in the churches above inspired by the heavy Satanic influence in the area that the churches were located. The Babylonian religion had already infiltrated the churches even in the beginning.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.


There is no doubt that John has labeled Pergamos as where Satan's seat is and where Satan dwells in Rev 2:13. Flip chapter and verse to Rev 13:2 and we have this scripture concerning the AC. Here we are told that the AC is given 3 things from the dragon (Satan). He is given his power, seat, and great authority. Satan's seat is said to be in Pergamos.

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Four out of the 7 churches had Satanic influences. There seems to be a power base located in the general area of the 7 churches with Satan's base being in Pergamos. Pergamos is now called Bergama, Turkey. Rev 2:13 is the only scripture that I know of in bible that gives us any clue to an earthly location for Satan. So at least in John's time Satan had a seat in Turkey. The Altar of Zeus was also located in Pergamos. A statue of Zeus was placed in the temple by Antiochus Epiphanies prior to its destruction and would be considered an abomination standing in the temple.

Revelation 17 gives us a view of what the AC's empire will look like just prior to its destruction. We have a picture of a beast with 7 heads and 10 horns with a woman sitting on it. Rev 17:7 an angel tells John he will tell him the mystery of the woman and the beast with 7 heads/10 horns. So here we are given an interpretation of what these things represent.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Revelation 12:3 tells us the red dragon has 7 heads and 10 horns. Rev 12:9 defines the dragon as Satan. The beast in Rev 17 has 7 heads/10 horns and comes out of the bottomless pit. I believe that we can confidently say that the beast with 7 heads/ 10 horns of Rev 17 is referring to Satan.

Revelation 12

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Using these 3 verses we can tie Pergamos, the AC, and Satan together (Rev 2:13, Rev 13:2, and Rev 12:3). We know the beast of Rev 17 represents Satan and his last world empire. The angel has told John he will reveal the mystery. The angel continues the description in Rev 17:9.

City on 7 Hills

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

This angel, sent from God, tells us that the 7 heads are 7 mountains the woman sits on. Rev 17:18 defines the woman as that great city.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Strong's concordance provides "hills" as one definition for mountains. So the woman (city) riding on the beast (Satan) sits on 7 mountains (hills). Many claim that Rome is the city referred to as sitting on 7 hills. Rome wasn't actually founded on 7 hills though. There was a city that was built on 7 hills, it was Constantinople also known as New Rome and modern day as Istanbul, Turkey.

Istanbul is located on the western coast of Turkey close to where the 7 churches were. We know Satan's seat was in nearby Pergamos. Currently Istanbul is the Keeper of the Keys of Mecca and also where leader of the Eastern Orthodox Church is based. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox have been taking steps to reunite. Istanbul could possibly evolve into an international city representing all major religions. Lately they have been building new worship centers that have Christian, Jewish, and Islamic services in the same building.

Revelation 18 talks about the great city being destroyed. The city is a trade center. Istanbul is a long established important trade port. It is literally where the West, Middle East, and East meet. The nation of Turkey sits on 4 separate bodies of water. Revelation 17 speaks of the whore that sits on many waters. The whore is the woman which is the city on 7 hills which is the city of Istanbul. The city is in the region of Satan's seat and dwelling place.

The 4 World Empires

If Turkey is to be considered as the nation where the AC rises from then it also has to match other pertinent scripture. The book of Daniel, without a doubt, gives us the most information about the 4th and final beast kingdom. Daniel 2, 7, & 8 all three talk about the 4 world kingdoms that will exist on earth.

All 3 chapters follow the same format. First there is a dream or vision. Next Daniel asks for the meaning of the dream/vision and then an interpretation is given to Daniel from God. It is important to note that God has given us the meaning of the particular dream or vision in all 3 chapters. I know I can't improve upon the interpretation given by God so accept it as the truth and precise meaning of the vision.

Dan 2:19 Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven.

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.


Daniel is told that there will be only 4 kingdoms that rule over the earth. The first is Babylon, the one Daniel lives in. The vision in Daniel 2 was said to be for the latter times. That is confirmed by Dan 2:44 where we are told that the 10 kings of the 4th kingdom shall be in the days that God sets up his everlasting kingdom.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The 10 kings are said to be part of the 4th kingdom therefore exist in the same time frame as when the Lord returns. So we know the first was Babylon and the last exists near the time of the Lord's return.

Dan 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


Here again is the 4th kingdom in the time that the Ancient of days came and the saints possessed the kingdom. This is clearly at the return of Christ. So we are talking about the same 4 kingdoms as we were in Daniel 2.

Daniel 8

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.


Daniel again asks for understanding. The angel Gabriel is instructed to make Daniel understand the vision. Daniel 8 gives us specific information on the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms. This vision is also intended for the time of the end.

20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


Kingdom number one is Babylon. The next is Media-Persia and the third is Grecia (Greek). The 4th kingdom again exists at the time of our Lord's return. He stands up against Jesus (Prince of princes) at His second coming.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

We are told in Dan 8:21 that the rough goat's horn is the first king. We know from history that Alexander the great was the first king of the Greek empire. Alexander died and 4 of his generals split up his empire. In Dan 8:22 we are told the horn is broken into 4 divisions just as happened to the Greek empire. Dan 8:23 says that in the latter time of their kingdom (the 4 divisions) a king of fierce countenance (AC) shall stand up.

Somewhere out of what was the Greek empire is where the AC will arise from. The interpretation given here by the angel Gabriel states that clearly. The western edge of the Greek empire only reached to modern Greece. This effectively eliminates western Europe as a candidate to produce the AC.

http://www.ancientanatolia.com/map09.htm

North and South

To further narrow down which part of the Greek empire that the AC rises from we need to turn to Daniel 11. Keep in mind that this is written by the same man that had previously received 3 dream/visions and their interpretations directly from God. The visions described what would happen to the kingdom he lived in (Babylon) and the kingdoms that followed on earth.

There were only 4 kingdoms ever mentioned. Rome could not have been the 4th kingdom because we know it exists close to the time of the return of Jesus. There is absolutely no scripture in the interpretations that indicate that the 4th kingdom will exist, be destroyed, and then exist again. Daniel already knows about the 4 world empires from the previous visions.

Daniel 11

2 And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.
3 And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.
4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.
5 And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.


Previously in Daniel 8, Daniel is told that the first 3 kingdoms are Babylon, Media-Persia, and Grecia (Greek). Dan 11:2 speaks of 4 Persian kings that stir up all against the realm of Grecia. There was a war between Greece and Persia with Greece being the victor and defeating the Persian empire.

Dan 11:3-4 tells of a mighty king that stands up and that his kingdom will be divided toward the 4 winds of heaven. This is the Greek king that stands up against the Persia king. We know from history that Alexander was the first king of the Greek empire and that his kingdom was divided into 4 portions after his death. Four of his generals each took a portion of the empire initially.

Now in Dan 11:5 we see that the king of the south was one of his princes (And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes). Alexander's general could be considered one of his princes. Further down in Dan 11 the identity of the south is given as Egypt. The northern part of the Greek empire was composed of 3 of the 4 original divisions after some battles between the 4 generals. This left the old Greek empire as being comprised of 2 primary divisions (northern and southern).

7 But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
8 And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.


Dan 11:7-8 shows the king of the south attacking the king of the north, prevailing, and carrying spoils back to Egypt. So the king of the south is referring to Egypt. Egypt was the southern division of the broken Greek empire.

The northern division was called the Seleucid dynasty. The geographic area of the Seleucus was basically what was known as Asia Minor. This area did not include western Europe. Daniel 11 proceeds with a series of battles between the king of the north and the king of the south. Certain historic battles seem to match up quite nicely with those scriptures up until the last king mentioned in Daniel 11.

The last king is a king that will exist close to the time of the Lord's return to earth. We can know this because of this verse in Daniel 11.

31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Here we see the AOD occurring. This we know happens at the mid-point of the last 7 years. The AOD time stamp places this king of Dan 11:31 in the last 7 years. The king spoken of in Daniel 11:31 is first spoken of in Daniel 11:21.

21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

The estate that this king stands up in can be found in Daniel 11:15

15 So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.

This king of the North is succeeded by the king of Dan 11:20 who is succeeded by the king in Daniel 11:21. This makes the king of the 11:21, a king of the north. This is also the AC. So the AC will arise out of the last of the 4 world empires, specifically out of the northern portion of that empire after it was divided 4 ways. Turkey was part of that northern division so fits that part of prophecy. There are other parts of the northern division that could qualify but when added with the specific information of Satan’s seat being in Pergamos, Turkey seems more likely the one.

Gog Chief Prince of Meshech and Tubal

There are other books of prophecy in the bible that I feel speak of the battle of Armageddon. They give some specific information on some of the nations involved in that battle. There are many views on Armageddon timing which I don't wish to get deeply into. I will present the scripture and why I feel that scripture pertains to the time near the return of Jesus. Regardless of what we call the battle, it is still clear that the events described occur near the "day of the Lord".

Ezekiel 38-39 speaks of a battle that occurs on the mountains of Israel. There is a list of names of those arrayed against Israel for this battle. God defeats this alliance and then Israel knows their God from that point forward after witnessing the defeat of this alliance by the hand of God. This has to occur before the millennium. There is no way that Israel would not know their God if He is dwelling among them ruling from Jerusalem, as will be the case during the millennium.

Ezekiel 39

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.


Both the heathen and Israel will know who God is after this battle sequence given in Eze 38-39. Scripture tells us when the nations finally know who God is. It is after they taste His utter defeat at Armageddon.

Revelation 16

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


Revelation 19

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


We know that Armageddon occurs in Israel in the area of Megiddo. Eze 38-39 speaks of a battle in Israel. Armageddon and the Eze battle occur near the time when God is revealed by defeating the nations in Israel. There are many parallel verses between Revelation (Armageddon) and Ezekiel (Israel battle) descriptions.

The verses of interest in Eze 38 are the ones with the names of some of those who attack Israel near the end of time.

Ezekiel 38

2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.


The first map shown on this website below, is one that I consider to be accurate in the locations of ancient names. Meshech and Tubal are shown to be located in what is now present day Turkey. There are many others that feel Turkey is the location of Meshech and Tubal and can be found by googling "Turkey Meshech Tubal".

http://www.teachinghearts.org/dre00maps.html

Turkey (Gog) leads the battle in Eze 38 and is aligned with Persia (Iran), Ethiopia (Sudan?), and Libya. We can see Turkey developing close ties with those regional gov'ts currently. The 3 nations positively identified in Eze 38 are all Muslim nations. Turkey is around 98 % Muslim so it would make sense that they would align with other Muslim nations.

A combination of Genesis 10 and a bit of good ole' common sense adds credibility to the concept of Meshech and Tubal being located in what we know as Turkey. Genesis 8 tells us that Noah's Ark came to rest upon the mountains of Ararat. There is a mountain named Ararat located near the eastern border of Turkey. Mt. Ararat, Turkey is commonly believed to be the location where the Ark landed.

4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.

Noah and his 3 sons, with their wives, were the only ones on the Ark. These 8 people first stepped off the Ark and set foot in Turkey. We know that one of the first things that Noah did was plant a vineyard. He almost certainly planted that vineyard near where the Ark landed. There wasn't a pre-built home waiting for Noah so I am guessing they used the Ark for shelter at first. The animals were all released in the area so it is highly likely that Noah and his sons lived in the area of the Ark (Turkey) at first.

Genesis 10

1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.


Noah's son, Japheth, was the father of two of the men's names that I am interested in. Meshech and Tubal were two of Noah's grandsons. It is highly unlikely that with as few people on earth as there was at the time, that Meshech and Tubal settled very far away from the original Ark landing site.

Strong's concordance tells us that Meshech and Tubal were names of Noah's grandsons as well as locations.

Mesech or Meshech = "drawing out"

1) son of Japheth, grandson of Noah, and progenitor of peoples to the north of Israel

a) descendants of Mesech often mentioned in connection with Tubal, Magog, and other northern nations including the Moschi, a people on the borders of Colchis and Armenia

Tubal = "thou shall be brought"

1) son of Japheth and grandson of Noah
2) a region in east Asia Minor
a) perhaps nearly equal to Cappadocia

Cappadocia is located in central Turkey as shown on this map below.

http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/Maps/cappadocia_map.html

This makes perfect sense that Noah's grandsons settled in the general area of the Ark landing. We know from scripture that Gog leads the invasion of Israel and that he is chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Turkey). The invasion is defeated by the Lord Himself and then the nations and heathen will know who God is from then forward. Israel will not know their God until close to when Jesus returns. They will have to accept Jesus prior to reuniting with their God. Jesus even told the Jews before He left that they would not see Him again until they said blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. In other words not until they accepted Christ.

Ezekiel 32 Nations

The old testament provides other scripture that reinforces the idea that a group of Muslim neighbors of Israel attack her near the day of the Lord. Ezekiel 32 lists some specific names of nations that God takes vengeance on. Meshech and Tubal are among the names in this chapter.

The following verses of Eze 32 establish the time stamp for the events described. We have an event that I refer to as the "cosmic signs". They are found in conjunction with the day of the Lord in many places in scripture. Matthew 24 tells us that these signs occur just prior to the return of Christ.

7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD.
9 I will also vex the hearts of many people, when I shall bring thy destruction among the nations, into the countries which thou hast not known.

11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon thee.


Egypt, Babylon (Iraq), Asshur (Syria), Elam (Iran), Edom (Jordan), and Meshech/Tubal (???) are all mentioned separately. This tells us that Meshech/Tubal aren't any of these: Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, or Jordan.

The Assyrian

Isaiah 10 speaks of God sending one called an Assyrian to punish the people of Israel for their sinful ways. The Assyrian becomes boastful and takes credit for what God has done. God then deals with the Assyrian for his arrogance. There are many verses in this chapter that make it clear the time setting is around the time of the end.

15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.


The Assyrian empire encompassed most of the middle east. Here is a map of the extent of the ancient Assyrian empire. The Assyrian is leading the Israel attack in Isaiah 10 much like Gog is in Eze 38. We eliminated Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Jordan as being Meshech and Tubal in Eze 32.

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/ancassy.htm

If we take those countries out of the Assyrian empire map then we are basically left with Turkey and the Armenian/Georgia area. We can eliminate Saudi Arabia as a possibility using Eze 38:13. Dedan (Saudi Arabia) is part of the group against Gog. There are other references of the Assyrian in the Old Testament as well. I think Armenia/Georgia can be eliminated mainly because of the lack of other scripture support.

The case for Turkey producing the AC has a strong biblical and historical foundation. Rev 2 tells us that Satan's seat was located in Turkey. Istanbul could be the city on 7 hills. Daniel 2,7, & 8 show us that there will only be 4 world empires and the 4th empire will rise out of the geographic area of the old Greek empire. Daniel 11 specifies that the AC rises out of the Northern portion (Asia Minor) of the divided Greek empire. Ezekiel 38-39 names Gog as chief prince of Meshech and Tubal which have been shown to have been located in Turkey. Gog attacks Israel near the end of time as does the AC. Genesis 10 adds support for Meshech and Tubal being located in Turkey. Ezekiel 32 eliminates Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Jordan as identities for Meshech and Tubal. Isaiah 10 depicts an Assyrian attacking Israel near the end of time. When you remove the eliminated nations from Eze 32 that leaves Turkey as the most likely candidate in light of all the supporting scripture above. There is very little doubt in my mind that the AC will be a Muslim from the middle east area.

There are a couple of misc. items I feel are related also. Turkey has the ability, via a series of dams, to completely shut off the water flow to the Euphrates river. In Revelation we are told that the Euphrates river is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. The celebration of Christmas and Easter on pagan holidays was integrated into Christianity in Turkey. There is some research that indicates that the actual location of Babel was in Turkey.

The validity of any theory is how it performs in the real world. We know that at some point Israel will sign a peace treaty with many. The one that confirms this treaty will also break the treaty at the mid-point of the last 7 years. Look out into the world today and see who Israel's sworn enemies are, they are Muslims. The peace everyone is looking for is between Israel and her Muslim enemies.

The history of the Arab hatred for Israel makes it hard to imagine Israel ever trusting them enough to sign a peace treaty. The Arabs have never recanted their call for Israel to be driven into the sea. There is one Muslim country that Israel trusts. It is Turkey. Turkey is Israel's only ally in the middle east. Turkey has recently been very active trying to position itself as a mediator in the mid-east peace process. As Turkey says, they are friends with all parties involved. Turkey has been calling for a comprehensive peace treaty involving all of Israel's Arab neighbors. Sounds like a covenant with many to me.

Peace,
Seeker
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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World oil prices strike record highs on Turkey-PKK tensions

Postby Seeker on Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:15 pm

World oil prices strike record highs on Turkey-PKK tensions

NEW YORK (AFP) — World oil prices soared to record highs Monday with New York prices smashing through 86 dollars as tensions mounted between Turkey's government and Kurdish rebels located in northern Iraq.

Oil values jumped after Turkey's army said at the weekend that it had shelled Iraqi territory following an attack on a military outpost with rockets and gunfire from across the border by PKK rebels.

New York's main oil futures contract, light sweet crude for delivery in November, soared a hefty 2.44 dollars to close at 86.13 dollars a barrel amid the heightened tensions across the Turkish-Iraq border.

London oil prices also surged amid the concerns. Brent North Sea crude for November delivery settled up 2.20 dollars at a record 82.75 dollars a barrel.

"The tensions on the Turkish-Iraqi border have really pushed the price up," said Adrian Bingham-Walker at CMC Markets.

"It's a new supply threat and prices have just kept on hitting new highs today. As it's hitting these highs, it's attracting more and more buyers," Bingham-Walker said.

Aside from the Turkish-PKK fears, oil prices have also been boosted by worries over stretched global energy supplies. Traders are fearful that heating fuel demand will soar during the northern hemisphere winter, especially in the United States.

Oil prices spiked Monday as the Turkish government met to prepare a motion seeking parliamentary approval for a potential military incursion into neighbouring Iraq to crack down on Kurdish rebel bases there.

The motion will be sent to parliament "once it is signed by all the ministers," a Turkish government official told AFP.

The Turkish cabinet was expected to seek a one-year authorization for a military operation in northern Iraq, where an estimated 3,500 rebels of the separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) are located.

Oil traders are concerned a worsening of the situation could affect Iraq's oil market and wider crude markets as western governments appeal for calm.

The White House urged "restraint" from Turkey.

"We urge the Turks to continue their discussions with us and the Iraqis, and to show restraint from any potentially destabilizing actions," said White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe.".......

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g4e ... nollDm0kdA
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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TURKEY'S IRAQ THREAT

Postby Seeker on Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:56 am

TURKEY'S IRAQ THREAT

October 20, 2007 -- "History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen." - Enoch Pow ell, British Politician (1967)

THIS week, the Turkish par liament gave the central government the go-ahead to undertake cross-border operations into Iraq against the Kurdish terrorist-separatist group, the Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK.)

The good news is that Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan insists an attack isn't imminent. The bad news is that a large-scale incursion could have serious consequences for U.S. interests in Iraq.

It's no surprise the Turks are up in arms. PKK forces based in Iraq have recently attacked both civilian and military targets in Turkey. PKK rebels reportedly killed at least 15 Turkish soldiers and a busload of civilians in the last two weeks.

The ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) is under tremendous domestic pressure to do something about the PKK, which may be responsible for at least 100 soldiers deaths this year alone.

Indeed, the PKK is responsible for 600 total deaths last year. Since 1984, when the PKK began its armed push for an independent Kurdish homeland in southeastern Turkey, over 30,000 have died.

And a Turkish incursion into Iraq against the PKK wouldn't be unprecedented. Turkish forces have crossed the border a number of times, sometimes in large numbers, in pursuit of the PKK since the conflict broke out.

Just this June, Turkey massed ground forces along the Iraqi border, without the green-light it now has from the parliament, after a spate of PKK killings in Turkey.

For the moment, though, Turkey probably isn't going to invade. But in the meantime, the saber rattling serves other purposes.

First, the authorization for the use of force sends a nasty shot across the bow of both Baghdad and Washington (a NATO ally) to do something substantive about the PKK, operating out of Iraq.

Ankara understands the last thing Washington or Baghdad wants - or needs, especially when things seem to be going better in Iraq - is a problem like Turkish forces pouring across the border.

While U.S. and Iraqi leaders have been cautious about saying what they might do if Turkey invades, Turkish forces (NATO's second largest) could unintentionally attack U.S. troops - or meet fierce resistance from local Kurds or the Iraqi army.

Such ugly possibilities are a real incentive for the United States and Iraq to do something. Ankara, is demanding meaningful action and progress on eliminating the PPK in Iraq , not just more promises. (Turkey and Iraq recently signed a counterterror cooperation pact.)......................

New York Post
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: TURKEY'S IRAQ THREAT

Postby Douggg on Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:54 am

Seeker wrote:TURKEY'S IRAQ THREAT

October 20, 2007 -- "History is littered with the wars which everybody knew would never happen." - Enoch Pow ell, British Politician (1967)

THIS week, the Turkish par liament gave the central government the go-ahead to undertake cross-border operations into Iraq against the Kurdish terrorist-separatist group, the Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK.)

The good news is that Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Recep Erdogan insists an attack isn't imminent. The bad news is that a large-scale incursion could have serious consequences for U.S. interests in Iraq.

It's no surprise the Turks are up in arms. PKK forces based in Iraq have recently attacked both civilian and military targets in Turkey. PKK rebels reportedly killed at least 15 Turkish soldiers and a busload of civilians in the last two weeks.

The ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) is under tremendous domestic pressure to do something about the PKK, which may be responsible for at least 100 soldiers deaths this year alone.

Indeed, the PKK is responsible for 600 total deaths last year. Since 1984, when the PKK began its armed push for an independent Kurdish homeland in southeastern Turkey, over 30,000 have died.

And a Turkish incursion into Iraq against the PKK wouldn't be unprecedented. Turkish forces have crossed the border a number of times, sometimes in large numbers, in pursuit of the PKK since the conflict broke out.

Just this June, Turkey massed ground forces along the Iraqi border, without the green-light it now has from the parliament, after a spate of PKK killings in Turkey.

For the moment, though, Turkey probably isn't going to invade. But in the meantime, the saber rattling serves other purposes.

First, the authorization for the use of force sends a nasty shot across the bow of both Baghdad and Washington (a NATO ally) to do something substantive about the PKK, operating out of Iraq.

Ankara understands the last thing Washington or Baghdad wants - or needs, especially when things seem to be going better in Iraq - is a problem like Turkish forces pouring across the border.

While U.S. and Iraqi leaders have been cautious about saying what they might do if Turkey invades, Turkish forces (NATO's second largest) could unintentionally attack U.S. troops - or meet fierce resistance from local Kurds or the Iraqi army.

Such ugly possibilities are a real incentive for the United States and Iraq to do something. Ankara, is demanding meaningful action and progress on eliminating the PPK in Iraq , not just more promises. (Turkey and Iraq recently signed a counterterror cooperation pact.)......................

New York Post


What does the above article have to do with proving Turkey is the country which the Antichrist comes out of?

Sincerely,

Doug L.
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Dozens die as Turkey battles Kurdish rebels

Postby Seeker on Sun Oct 21, 2007 6:04 am

Dozens die as Turkey battles Kurdish rebels

(CNN) -- Turkey's cabinet will convene an emergency session Sunday after Kurdish rebels killed at least 12 Turkish soldiers and wounded 17 more near Turkey's border with Iraq and Iran on Sunday, a Turkish government source told CNN.

A short time after that attack in Hakkari Province, a wedding convoy tripped a landmine on a road near the clashes in Hakkari province, injuring 12 people, the source said.

The landmine is believed to have been planted by rebels from the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, the source said.

Shortly after the attack on the soldiers, Turkish forces responded by killing 23 PKK rebels in southern Turkey, according to a statement on an official government Web site.

The Turkish government source declined to offer details surrounding the outbreak of the violence staged by PKK rebels.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul will preside over the emergency cabinet meeting in Ankara, which will be attended by the country's top military brass -- including the chief of armed services Gen. Yasar Buyukanit -- the government source said.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is also slated to attend the meeting.

While Sunday's violence took place inside Turkey's borders, it comes amid tense times with neighboring Iraq where PKK rebels have launched cross-border attacks on Turkey.

Turkey's parliament last week passed a measure that enables its military to launch an incursion into northern Iraq and chase down Kurdish rebels, which it blames on a number of terrorist attacks.".........

CNN International
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Re: Dozens die as Turkey battles Kurdish rebels

Postby Douggg on Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:34 am

Seeker wrote:Dozens die as Turkey battles Kurdish rebels

(CNN) -- Turkey's cabinet will convene an emergency session Sunday after Kurdish rebels killed at least 12 Turkish soldiers and wounded 17 more near Turkey's border with Iraq and Iran on Sunday, a Turkish government source told CNN.

A short time after that attack in Hakkari Province, a wedding convoy tripped a landmine on a road near the clashes in Hakkari province, injuring 12 people, the source said.

The landmine is believed to have been planted by rebels from the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, the source said.

Shortly after the attack on the soldiers, Turkish forces responded by killing 23 PKK rebels in southern Turkey, according to a statement on an official government Web site.

The Turkish government source declined to offer details surrounding the outbreak of the violence staged by PKK rebels.

Turkish President Abdullah Gul will preside over the emergency cabinet meeting in Ankara, which will be attended by the country's top military brass -- including the chief of armed services Gen. Yasar Buyukanit -- the government source said.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is also slated to attend the meeting.

While Sunday's violence took place inside Turkey's borders, it comes amid tense times with neighboring Iraq where PKK rebels have launched cross-border attacks on Turkey.

Turkey's parliament last week passed a measure that enables its military to launch an incursion into northern Iraq and chase down Kurdish rebels, which it blames on a number of terrorist attacks.".........

CNN International


So? Posting news clips without any commentary from the poster on why the information is pertinent to bible prophecy is spam IMHO :spam: . This is supposed to be a prophecy debate forum, not CNN. :idgi6:

Here's the problem, Seeker. You have made one post stating why you think the Antichrist comes from Turkey and that Turkey will play a role in peace talks between Israel and the Arab countries. But the news clippings that you post don't support your hypothesis.

What does the above news clipping have to do with your claim that the Antichrist will come out of Turkey?


Sincerely,

Doug L.
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Turkey masses trooops, attacks in Iraq confirmed

Postby Seeker on Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:18 pm

Turkey masses trooops, attacks in Iraq confirmed

8:25AM Thursday October 25, 2007
By Thomas Grove

Turkey has moved more troops to the mountainous Iraqi border following confirmed security reports its troops did attack Kurdish rebels inside Iraq earlier this week. Security sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, confirmed a series of sorties between Sunday and Tuesday evening in which Turkish warplanes flew 20km into Iraq and some 300 ground troops advanced about 10km. "Further 'hot pursuit' raids into northern Iraq can be expected, though none have taken place so far today," a military official told Reuters.

State-run Anatolian news agency said Turkish warplanes and helicopters had bombarded PKK positions in southeast Turkey on Wednesday. The sorties into Iraq killed 34 PKK rebels and all the Turkish troops involved in the operations were now back in Turkey, the official said. But Abdul Rahman Jaderji, a PKK spokesman in northern Iraq, told Reuters there had been no direct fighting between the two sides since clashes on Sunday in which 12 Turkish soldiers died. He said Turkish troops had been shelling areas of northern Iraq, but little new shelling had been reported on Wednesday. Baghdad has pledged to act against the rebels. A Turkish official on Wednesday quoted Iraqi President Jalal Talabani as saying Iraq might hand over PKK militants to Turkey, but Talabani denied this.

"We have said many times that the PKK leadership does not exist in Kurdish cities but are living with thousands of their fighters in the Qandil mountains, so it is not possible for us to arrest and hand them over to Turkey," he said in a statement. The Turkish official described a planned visit by an Iraqi delegation to Ankara on Thursday as a "final chance" for diplomacy. At Turkey's request, the team will be headed by Iraqi Defence Minister General Abdel Qader Jassim. It will also include Iraqi National Security Minister Shirwan al Waeli. Washington and Baghdad fear a major Turkish incursion into northern Iraq could destabilise the whole region. But Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's government is under heavy public pressure to take tough action, especially since Sunday's deaths.

"If I look at the Turkish government as it has acted up until now I think the Turkish government is showing restraint - remarkable restraint under present circumstances," Nato Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer told reporters at a meeting of the alliance's defence ministers. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Wednesday she had told Erdogan on Sunday that she took the situation "extremely seriously".

"Iraq should not be a place where terrorism can hurt Turkey," she said. "We have a list of things that we believe, if they are undertaken, will help to deal with this situation," she added, citing Iraq's pledge to close PKK offices there."...........................................

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/stor ... d=10471976
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Lookfortruth on Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:35 pm

Turkish planes pound rebels along border

By VOLKAN SARISAKAL, Associated Press Writer 8 minutes ago

CIZRE, Turkey - Turkish warplanes and helicopter gunships reportedly pounded Kurdish rebel positions along the Turkey-Iraq border Wednesday, broadening military operations against insurgents amid persistent fears Turkey will launch a major offensive inside Iraq.
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Turkish Cabinet members and military generals held a six-hour meeting in Ankara to discuss a possible operation in northern Iraq, but decided to recommend the government take economic measures first to force cooperation by Iraqis against Kurdish rebels.

The state-run Anatolia news agency reported that Turkish warplanes and attack helicopters bombed mountain paths used by rebels to cross the porous border from Iraq and stage hit-and-run attacks against soldiers in southeastern Turkey.

Residents in the Iraqi Kurdish village of Derishkit told an Associated Press reporter that two Turkish jet fighters struck a target on the banks of the Zey-Gowra River about four miles inside Iraq. They were unable to offer any more details about the apparent attack.

An AP Television News cameraman also saw eight F-16s loaded with bombs and attack helicopters take off after nightfall from a base in the southeastern city of Diyarbakir. The cameraman also saw about a dozen transport helicopters fly along Mount Cudi near the border with Iraq and at least one warplane fly past Cizre, a town close to the border.

The Anatolia news agency report said the warplanes and helicopters took off from Diyarbakir and "are reported to have bombed and destroyed bases of the terrorists."

Pentagon officials declined to confirm reports of airstrikes.

"I don't know of any Turkish airstrikes in that area today," Maj. Gen. Richard Sherlock, Joint Chiefs of Staff operational planning director, told a Defense Department press conference.

The reported airstrikes come after days of Turkish shelling in the region. On Sunday, Turkish helicopter gunships penetrated Iraqi territory after Kurdish rebels ambushed a Turkish military convoy near the border, killing 12 soldiers and leaving eight others missing.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071024/ap_ ... urkey_iraq

It looks like things are heating up along the boarder
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Israel apologizes to Turkey over Syria air strike

Postby Seeker on Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:07 pm

Israel apologizes to Turkey over Syria air strike

Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:56am EDT

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has apologized to Turkey after it protested at Israel's apparent use of its airspace for a bombing run in neighboring Syria last month, a senior Israeli official said on Sunday. "If indeed Israeli planes entered Turkish airspace, then there was no intention of undermining or questioning Turkish sovereignty, which we respect," the official quoted Olmert as telling cabinet ministers during their closed weekly session. Israel has not given details on the September 6 air strike, which some analysts speculated may have targeted a nascent nuclear reactor. Syria has denied having such a facility.

The discovery in Turkey of fuel tanks that had apparently been dumped by returning Israeli warplanes strained ties between the Jewish state and its only Muslim ally in the region."...........

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 8620071028
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby AndCanItBe on Sat Nov 10, 2007 8:16 pm

Turkey approves building nuclear plants

ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey's parliament approved a bill Friday allowing for the construction of nuclear power plants in the country, despite opposition from environmental groups.
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Turkey first announced plans to build a reactor in 1996, but the project was put on hold because of financial problems, and the chosen location, near the Mediterranean coast, was near an earthquake-prone region.

No specific sites have been chosen, but in the past the Turkish government has approved building its first nuclear power plants in the Black Sea province of Sinop, on the northern tip of Turkey

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Israeli, Palestinian Leaders Meet in Turkey

Postby Seeker on Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:20 pm

Israeli, Palestinian Leaders Meet in Turkey

By Dorian Jones
Istanbul
13 November 2007

The Turkish capital, Ankara, is hosting the Israeli and Palestinian presidents. The two leaders are meeting with their Turkish counterpart and the prime minister. The visit comes ahead of an expected peace summit in the United States. Dorian Jones reports for VOA from Istanbul. The official reason for the visit of the Israeli President Shimon Peres and his Palestinian counterpart Mahmoud Abbas is to confirm the construction of a Turkish-backed industrial park on the West Bank.

But, analysts say the real goal of the trip is to set the stage for a peace summit in Annapolis, Maryland, later this year. President Peres says his country supports the effort for peace. He says hard work remains ahead. "I think all of us would like not to make the Annapolis meeting a failure. If it will succeed, it won't be perfect success. But, if it will fail, it will be perfect failure," Mr. Peres said.

After meeting with his Israeli counterpart, Turkish President Abdullah Gul stressed his country is a close friend of both Israel and the Palestinians. Ankara has strong political and military ties with Israel and has, for decades, been one of Israel's closest allies in the Muslim world. At the same time, it has kept strong ties with the Palestinians. Turkey, which once ruled the region, has particular interest in helping to find peace, according to International relations specialist Soli Ozel of Istanbul's Bilgi University.

"The Turkish public believes being the inheritors of the empire Turkey may have a special role to play in the Middle East; that It should try to play that role and it should try to place this in an even-handed fashion," he said."....

http://voanews.com/english/2007-11-13-voa12.cfm
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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İstanbul to become new nucleus for Turkic world

Postby Seeker on Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:21 am

İstanbul to become new nucleus for Turkic world

Representatives from Turkic language-speaking countries, meeting in the Azerbaijani capital of Baku, have agreed to set up a permanent secretariat facilitating regular summits of leaders, a step in the direction of boosting cooperation and dialogue among these countries.

The decision, made at the three-day 11th Congress of Friendship, Brotherhood and Cooperation of Turkic-speaking Countries and Communities, which ended yesterday, will bring the Turkic republics yet closer to one another. The establishment of such a mechanism, proposed first by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who also attended the gathering, will be officially launched at the next summit meeting of the heads of state of Turkic-speaking countries, which is expected to take place some time in the next two months. The secretariat is envisaged to expedite and enhance the commercial, cultural, diplomatic and political relations among Turkic states.

In his speech at the congress on Saturday, Erdoğan called on leaders of Turkic-speaking nations to join forces and suggested establishing a union of Turkic-speaking countries as a primary tool for coordinating joint moves in the foreign policy arena.

The prime minister also called for a common stance on regional issues, such as Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and warned that a lack of cooperation in the face of these problems could prove costly. “What will our state of affairs be if we do not cooperate? The way to success passes through full cooperation and solidarity in today’s world. If we don’t cooperate, then they will tear us to shreds. It is not possible for us to reach to the level we deserve by isolating ourselves from the world.”

The summit meeting of the heads of state of Turkic-speaking countries is held every year. The hottest topic on the agenda of the leaders attending the next summit will be the establishment of a permanent secretariat. Turkish plans envision having the center of the permanent secretariat in Turkey’s culture capital, İstanbul. It was stated during deliberations that the secretariat could have a system of rotation or develop some other formula regarding the secretariat. The chief responsibility of the permanent secretariat will be overseeing preparation work for the summit meetings. The secretariat will also follow up decisions made at the summit, thereby providing immediate resolution to troubles at the implementation stage and giving the summit much higher functionality. The permanent secretariat will additionally assess summit verdicts of civil organizations similar to the General Assembly of Turkic-speaking Countries.

Among the people cheered by the idea was Professor Abdülhaluk Çay, the chairman of the Foundation for Friendship, Fraternity and Cooperation among Turkic States and Societies (TUDEV), which organized the general assembly. Noting that the help of the political will in such organizations would help make it easier to equally share responsibilities, Çay said: “The stage of getting to know one another is over. Now it’s time to solve the problems. That the permanent secretariat will be established is an indicator of this.”

While delivering his opening speech on Nov. 17, Prime Minister Erdoğan stressed that it was high time that cooperation among the Turkic republics was upgraded to a much more planned level, namely, given an institutional character.

“To this end, I suggest establishing a permanent secretariat for the summit meeting of the heads of state of Turkic-speaking countries which will coordinate in a more planned and organized manner. I suggest and value the establishment of a permanent secretariat,” Erdoğan said.

A ‘Turkic parliament’

In the meantime, suggestions were made during yesterday’s session of the general assembly. Justice and Development Party (AK Party) İstanbul deputy Alaattin Büyükkaya suggested the Turkic republics could have a parliament of their own, similar to the European Parliament. If Büyükkaya’s suggestion is put into practice, a 50-member parliament will be formed and the number of representatives to be sent from all Turkic republics will be determined in accordance with their population. The parliament building will be in İstanbul.

Participants at the general assembly meetings also proposed that the form of Turkish spoken in Turkey be accepted as the common language in international gatherings of the Turkic countries. Others called for olympic games among Turkic language-speaking countries and the establishment of a television station that will broadcast in these countries. “We are ready to work to bring this proposal into being,” Turkish official broadcaster TRT’s Acting Director Ali Güney said of the proposed television broadcasts.

20.11.2007

ERDAL ŞEN ANKARA

Zaman
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Downpour on Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:27 am

Turkey’s leaders plan Muslim Europe

For the AKP, democracy is merely a means to a higher Islamic goal, says edward luttwak


If you thought Turkey was no threat to the West, think again. A new generation of politicians is aiming to Islamise the state by stealth. The AKP - Adalet ve Kalkinma Partisi, or Justice and Development Party - has a stranglehold on Turkey for the foreseeable future.

The AKP was founded to replace a previous Islamic party banned for extremism. It benefited hugely from the corruption scandals that dragged down the previous government, taking two-thirds of parliament in the 2002 general election (on a third of the vote).

On Friday, its ex-foreign secretary Abdullah Gul narrowly failed to win a victory in the first round of presidential elections. The result was close enough to prompt public demonstrations by secularists ahead of the second round voting on May 2, and a statement from the military - long the

guardians of Turkey's secular traditions - warning against a pro-Islam political agenda.

Since coming to power, the AKP has done nothing revolutionary, but it does have a revolutionary agenda. For all their suavity, its leaders seek to transform the country into a Sunni Muslim republic. This collides with institutions and laws strictly limiting Islam's role in public life, and with a long-standing security alliance with Israel.

It also collides with democracy itself, for no Koranic state can have a sovereign parliament free to legalise such abominations as equal rights for women and homosexuals or the drinking of alcohol.

A sinister slogan attributed to the AKP is that democracy is 'a bus we can ride until we reach our station'. Under Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his foreign secretary Abdullah Gul, the party has been cautious until now.

But abroad the AKP has been more strident. Turkey has stepped up relations with Muslim countries and cooled them with Israel. They have capitalised on public suspicion of the Western war on terror and yet have pursued Turkey's application to join the EU.

There is no inconsistency. The AKP's apparent ambitions in Europe are its most strategic deceptions. Ostensibly, the aim is simply to accelerate Turkey's climb to prosperity.

However, a key condition imposed by the EU is the army's abrogation of political authority - which suits the AKP just fine, for the military is the greatest barrier to Islamisation. Moreover, the party shares the Islamist belief that Europe will inevitably be conquered by the high birthrates of its Muslim inhabitants - and Turkey's entry would immediately add some 70 million.

Then there's the media. There are three major groups in Turkey, compared to which any Islamist operations are small. However, the government now has a hold over all of them because of contested tax liabilities, and because the government-controlled Savings Deposits Insurance Fund can seize their associated banks at any time without even having to go to court.

The results are manifest in coverage that mostly reflects the AKP agenda - and duly affects public opinion. Why else would Valley of the Wolves, whose cast includes US actors Billy Zane and Gary Busey, become the most successful Turkish film ever? The story includes American army officers selling body parts from captured Iraqis - with Jewish surgeons removing them! No wonder the AKP cabinet took their wives to the opening gala.

The party has also done its best to Islamise the bureaucracy. Even in Istanbul, post-office employees now stop work for Friday prayers, and civil servants are no longer expected to work a full day during Ramadan.

And just to make sure, the AKP has literally bought public opinion in poor urban areas by distributing food packages, paid for by contributions from big business.

Although the wind is blowing their way, I doubt if more than 15 per cent of the population really want a full-blown Sunni republic. But the AKP is being patient. Gul and Erdogan are clearly willing to defer Turkey's Islamisation if they can advance Europe's.

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Postby El Gallo on Sat Dec 15, 2007 11:21 pm

Those who disagree with the idea of a Muslim AC often cite Daniel 9, which intimates the AC will come from among the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Most, though, do not know the Roman Legion which did it was populated with Assyrians and Edomites.


It is true that the Recommendation 666 and Solana's moves in Europe give you pause. But, frankly, the Europeans are pacifist squishes today, while Islam is resurgent, self, confident, and very aggressive. If a supernatural Mahdi arises, expect 1.6 billion fanatics (give or take a few million).
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turkey mediating?

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:37 pm

Direct negotiations between Israel and Syria could materialize if the Turkish mediation which is allegedly underway is successful, Al-Hayat reported Tuesday.


Syrian President Bashar Assad.
Photo: AP
"Damascus has decided to pursue real peace with Israel which will give Syria its rights back," Syrian sources told the London-based Arabic daily, referring to Senator Arlen Specter's meeting with Syrian President Bashar Assad earlier this week.

Meanwhile, the sources also said that in order to motivate a real peace deal between the two countries, "Israel must guarantee the return of the entire Golan Heights to Syria."

Al-Hayat's sources also implied that negotiations between Damascus and Jerusalem are currently underway via Turkish mediation and added that if the negotiations are successful, the US will be asked to participate in direct Israeli-Syrian talks.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull
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Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:04 am

El Gallo wrote:Those who disagree with the idea of a Muslim AC often cite Daniel 9, which intimates the AC will come from among the people who destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. Most, though, do not know the Roman Legion which did it was populated with Assyrians and Edomites.


I believe the Islam religion will be brought to its knees when this scripture is fulfilled "And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD." Ezek 38:6.

I am not led to believe the antichrist serves Allah or the Islam religion because of verses like these: "[37] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
[38] But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
[39] Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain."
Daniel 11:37-39.

These verses would rule out Islam, Judaism, or Christianity because the antichrist does not regard the god of his fathers.

This leads me to believe the antichrist will have a different religion than the 3 major ones we have today... the worship of HIMSELF! This will essentially mean satan worshiping to the fullest extent if the antichrist receives his power from or is indwelt by satan during the time of his reign.
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Postby savedbygrace on Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:09 am

El Gallo wrote:
It is true that the Recommendation 666 and Solana's moves in Europe give you pause. But, frankly, the Europeans are pacifist squishes today, while Islam is resurgent, self, confident, and very aggressive. If a supernatural Mahdi arises, expect 1.6 billion fanatics (give or take a few million).


One must be extremely careful to remain open to the possibilities of things not turning out exactly as they expected. We are all incomplete in our understanding of the end times. To overlook the evidence of all things related to the EU, WEU (ten military nations), the seat of High Representative who controls those ten nations, and the number 666 connected to the person in that seat of power NUMEROUS TIMES bases on our pre-supposed ideas of where the antichrist will come from would be sheer folly for any believer. It is beyond plain coincidence at this point and is worthy of taking a long, hard look at!
You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But not a hair of your head shall be lost. By your patience you possess your souls. Luke 21:16-19
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Postby Downpour on Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:40 am

Turkish PM attacks proposed ban

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has criticised a proposal to ban his ruling AK Party as being against the "national will".

He was speaking after Turkey's chief prosecutor asked the country's Constitutional Court to ban the party, accusing it of anti-secular activities.

Turkey's secularist constitution does not allow any religious influence on the operation of the state.

The AK Party, which has Islamist roots, won last year's general elections.

In announcing his indictment, prosecutor Abdurrahman Yalcinkaya said he believed there was enough evidence to show the party had contravened Turkey's secular constitution.

He also revealed the party had been under investigation for six months.

Headscarf controversy

"The action taken yesterday is not aimed at the Justice and Development Party [AKP] but the will of the nation," Mr Erdogan said.

"No one can say that [AKP supporters] are a focal point of anti-secular activities," he added.

The AKP is already locked in a battle with Turkey's secular elite, backed by the powerful military, over recent changes to a ban on wearing headscarves.

The Constitutional Court is reviewing an appeal by the main pro-secular opposition party on the validity of parliament's constitutional amendments in February to allow women to wear Islamic headscarves at universities.

The AKP has argued that the headscarf ban unfairly bars large numbers of girls from higher education in a nation where about 66% of women wear the scarf.

Many secularists in the country equate the wearing of the headscarf with political Islam.

The AKP has its roots in a banned Islamist party.

But the government of Prime Minister Erdogan - which is negotiating for Turkey to join the EU - has insisted that the party's political views have changed.

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Postby Downpour on Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:31 pm

((here is something very interesting, for people who believe that the AC will come from Turkey, and he follows the kingdom of Greece and not the romans!!))

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Ataturk)

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (1881 – November 10, 1938) was an army officer, revolutionary statesman, and founder of the Republic of Turkey as well as its first President.

Mustafa Kemal established himself as a successful and extremely capable military commander while serving as a division commander at the Battle of Gallipoli. He later fought with distinction on the eastern Anatolian and Palestinian fronts, making a name for himself during World War I.[1] Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire at the hands of the Allies, and the subsequent plans for its partition, Mustafa Kemal led the Turkish national movement in what would become the Turkish War of Independence. Having established a provisional government in Ankara, he defeated the forces sent by the Entente powers. His successful military campaigns led to the liberation of the country and to the establishment of the Republic of Turkey.

As the first President of Turkey, Atatürk embarked upon a major programme of political, economic and cultural reforms. An admirer of the Enlightenment, Atatürk sought to transform the ruins of the Ottoman Empire into a modern, democratic, secular, nation-state. The principles of Atatürk's reforms are often referred to as Kemalism and continue to form the political foundation of the modern Turkish state.

Early life

Main article: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk's personal life

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk was born in the then Ottoman city of Salonika (Turkish: Selânik; modern-day Thessaloniki, Greece)

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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 am

Doha - Turkey has told Syria that Israel is prepared to swap the Golan Heights for peace, Syrian President Bashar al-Assad was quoted as saying on Thursday, a day after reports emerged of a Turkish peace mediation.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan "informed me of Israel's readiness to withdraw from the Golan in return for peace with Syria," Assad was quoted by the Qatari daily al-Watan as saying.

In excerpts from an interview to be published in full on Sunday, the paper quoted Assad as saying Ankara has been mediating between Israel and Syria since April 2007.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert assured Erdogan of his readiness to return the Golan, and this was relayed to Syria a week ago, Assad said.






"What we now need is to find common ground through the Turkish mediator," he said, adding that any negotiations with Israel would be conducted via Ankara.

Direct negotiations may become possible under the next US administration, the Syrian president said.

He said the issue would be discussed during a visit by Erdogan to Damascus on Saturday.

Assad's remarks follow reports in Syria that Erdogan has assured Damascus that Israel is ready to return all of the Golan Heights in return for peace.

Israel captured the Golan in the 1967 Middle East war and annexed it in 1981 in a move never recognised by the international community.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1 ... 433C572909



Shouldn't the original Turkey thread be stickied instead of just locked and lost?
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Postby kburic0375 on Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:27 am

Assad confirms Olmert's Golan offer



The Syrian leader also claimed that Israel and Syria have been exchanging messages since the end of the Second Lebanon War, adding that the negotiation track has heated up since Turkey became involved about a year ago.


According to Assad, despite the positive results of Turkish involvement, the negotiations should be held in the public eye. "What we now need to do is to formulate common grounds with the Turkish mediator," he said. "But there will be no direct negotiations with Israel unless they are public. Negotiations being held via the Turks are not considered direct talks."




http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

Shouldn't the original Turkey thread be stickied instead of just locked and lost?


Totally agree
2Cr 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2Cr 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:05 pm

We could be really really close.

This thing could be done at the end of this year or or next. Watching the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians and Israel and Syria with Turkey right in the middle signifies we could be on the verge of the 70th week beginning.

For those watching Turkey, this latest news really confirms that Turkey is the mediator and things are happening rapidly.
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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:12 pm

Shouldn't the original Turkey thread be stickied instead of just locked and lost?


Done.

It's okay to pm a mod or an admin with a suggestion, BTW. :mrgreen:
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Hey

Postby njfishwatchTurkey&Isr on Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:32 pm

Thanks AndCanitBe! I didn't think of pm-ing a Mod...I've never pm-ed a Mod before...
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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:44 pm

It's no problem, NJ, and you're welcome. :grin:
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Re: Hey

Postby Douggg on Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:39 am

njfishwatchTurkey&Isr wrote:We could be really really close.

This thing could be done at the end of this year or or next. Watching the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians and Israel and Syria with Turkey right in the middle signifies we could be on the verge of the 70th week beginning.

For those watching Turkey, this latest news really confirms that Turkey is the mediator and things are happening rapidly.


Okay, I am going to agree with you that some sort agreement is going to be reached before the end of this year - before the end of Bush's term. But I don't think it is going to be the Antichrist's peace - but a pre-Gog/Magog peace. Turkey is only involved in the Israel-Syria negotiations, btw.

What would complicate my view is if some 7 year stipulation is apparent.
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Postby Downpour on Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:43 am

But I don't think it is going to be the Antichrist's peace - but a pre-Gog/Magog peace.


Many believe that gog = antichrist or the spirit that possesses antichrist.

And also many believe that the gog/maggog war is part of Armeggadon.
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Postby kburic0375 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:44 am

Dougg wrote:Turkey is only involved in the Israel-Syria negotiations, btw.




'Turkish diplomacy will push ME peace'


Erdogan said Turkey's mediation was part of wider efforts to bring peace to the Middle East.




http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull
2Cr 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2Cr 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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Turkey plans to send envoy to Israel for Syria talks

Postby Seeker on Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:36 am

Turkey plans to send envoy to Israel for Syria talks

...."Israel would be open to participating in a senior-level meeting with the Syrians brokered by Turkey to test the waters for renewed peace negotiations, Israeli officials said. Turkey's foreign minister said there's still a lot to achieve before any peace agreement between Israel and Syria.

In Ankara Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan told reporters there's still a lot to achieve before any peace agreement between Israel and Syria. An agreement between the longtime enemies requires "strong political determination" from both sides, he added.

Babacan said Turkey would pass messages between the sides until they are ready to meet. "Talks will continue to take place through Turkey for a while," he said. "When the issue is a little more mature, then I hope that the sides will meet each other," he added.

Turkey is trying to restart low-level talks between the two countries as a prelude to bringing the leaders of Syria and Israel together.

Israeli officials told Reuters such a preliminary meeting between Israeli and Syrian representatives would be the next step in the mediation efforts by Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan. That meeting could lay the groundwork for more formal talks in the future, they added.

"If such an invitation comes from Turkey, I can't see any reason why Israel would not attend," said a senior Israeli official. "They would accept," an Israeli official from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office Reuters reported."

Hurriyet
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

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Report: U.S. asks Turkey to push harder for Israel-Syria tal

Postby Seeker on Sat May 17, 2008 1:38 pm

Report: U.S. asks Turkey to push harder for Israel-Syria talks

By Haaretz Service

Tags: Turkey, Israel, Syria

The U.S. government has asked Turkey to increase efforts to advance negotiations between Israel and Syria, according to a report published by the London Arabic daily Al-Hayat on Saturday.

According to the report, the U.S. request comes in light of the recent political crisis in Lebanon, and U.S. assessments that peace between Israel and Syria will help distance the country from Hezbollah.

The report quoted a source as saying that Washington has hinted to Israel more than once the importance of progress in talks with Syria. The source added that the U.S. said they are ready to participate in talks between the countries if Turkey is able to achieve a breakthrough between them.

Last week, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he was prepared to bring about a peace agreement between Israel and Syria during his term in office, according to a report in the magazine Paris Match.

Olmert told the French weekly that his top priority was reaching peace with Syria and the Palestinians, adding that no other matter was as important or urgent for the future of Israel.

Also last week, the pan-Arab London-based daily newspaper Al Hayat reported that Turkish officials are moving to convene a three-way meeting between Israeli and Syrian representatives. The meeting would likely take place in Istabul, as Turkey continues its efforts to jump-start peace negotiations between the two countries.

Ankara would like both sides to commit to a signed declaration as a starting point for talks. According to the report, Turkey decided to postpone the proposed sit-down after the Syrians revealed Jerusalem's stated willingness to withdraw from the Golan Heights in exchange for peace. The newspaper added that the Syrian leadership was assuaged by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's refusal to deny or backtrack from the claims when word reached the news media in Israel. "...........

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/984337.html
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby AndCanItBe on Wed May 21, 2008 6:52 am

Israel, Syria Acknowledge Indirect Peace Talks Aided by Turkey

May 21 (Bloomberg) -- Israel and Syria have had indirect talks for more than a year, mediated by Turkey, with the goal of reaching a peace agreement, their governments said.

``The two sides have declared their intentions to hold the talks in good faith and with an open mind,'' Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office said today on its Web site. The dialogue will be pursued in ``a serious and continuous way in order to achieve the goal of comprehensive peace,'' the government added.

Similar sentiments were expressed by Syria's Foreign Ministry in comments carried today by the state-run Syrian Arab News Agency, which credited Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan with ``incessant efforts'' to help the two sides move toward direct talks. Erdogan told the Syrian government last month that Olmert has agreed to return the Golan Heights to Syria in exchange for peace, Syria's state-controlled Cham Press said.

The last round of Israeli-Syrian peace talks broke down in 2000 when they were unable to resolve their dispute over the strategic plateau, which Israel captured in the 1967 Six-Day War.

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Israel and Syria negotiate as Turkey mediates

Postby Seeker on Wed May 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Israel and Syria negotiate as Turkey mediates

JERUSALEM: Israel and Syria announced Wednesday that they were engaged in negotiations for a comprehensive peace treaty through Turkish mediators, the first time in eight years that such talks had taken place.

Senior Israeli officials from Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's office and their Syrian counterparts were in Istanbul on Wednesday, where both groups had been staying separately, at undisclosed locations, since Monday. The mediators shuttled between the two.

The elements of negotiation were not made public in short official statements from both capitals that spoke of conducting "these talks in good faith and with an open mind." But there is no question that the Syrians want to regain the Golan Heights, captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war. Nor is there any doubt that Israel wants to end Syria's close alliance with Iran, hoping to reduce the power of anti-Israel groups like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza. Both benefit from Syrian as well as Iranian patronage; both are considered terrorist groups by Israel and the United States. Two weeks after Hezbollah seized much of West Beirut in an open display of its power, political factions in Lebanon Wednesday announced an agreement that gave Hezbollah an upper hand in the government. That doubtless added to Israel's sense of urgency in pursuing a deal with Syria.

The talks in Turkey were coordinated with the United States, according to a senior Israeli official who spoke on condition of anonymity, though the talks come less than a week after President George W. Bush, speaking to the Israeli Parliament, created a stir by criticizing those who would negotiate with "terrorists and radicals." Bush's remarks have become an issue in the American presidential campaign because they were widely perceived as a rebuke to Senator Barack Obama, the Democratic front-runner, who has advocated the kind of engagement that Israel and Syria are now undertaking.

Turkey, a Muslim country and member of NATO, is a close ally of the United States. It is also Syria's neighbor and has an interest in securing regional peace.

The Turkish prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has been working on convening negotiations for some time, an official in his office said, including holding phone conversations with leaders on both sides, and assigning a special envoy to handle the diplomatic back-and-forth. The fact that messages were being exchanged has been public for a couple of months, due to official Syrian statements.

The senior Israeli official said that shortly after Olmert became prime minister more than a year ago, he went to Turkey and held a long one-on-one meeting with Erdogan in which it was decided that Turkey would mediate between Israel and Syria."......

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/21/ ... ideast.php
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Postby Seeker on Mon May 26, 2008 8:21 am

LEBANON'S COMPROMISE
New rules for the Middle East
By Rami G. Khouri Published: May 26, 2008

BEIRUT:

The accord that has resolved the immediate political crisis in Lebanon is the latest example of the new political power equation that is redefining the Middle East. It reflects both local and global forces, and 18 years after the Cold War ended, provides a glimpse of what the post-Cold War world will look like - at least in the Middle East.

Several dynamics seem to be at play, but one stands out as paramount: We are witnessing the clear limits of the projection of American global power, combined with the assertion and coexistence of multiple regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, etc.). These local powers tend to fight and negotiate at the same time, and ultimately prefer to make reasonable compromises rather than perpetually wage absolutist battles.

The Doha accord for Lebanon was much more than simply a victory for Iranian-backed Hezbollah over the American-backed alliance. It is the first concrete example in the Arab world of a negotiated, formal political agreement by local adversaries to share power and make big national decisions collectively, while maintaining close strategic relationships with diverse external patrons in the United States, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Syria.

The Lebanese agreement (unlike the failed Fatah-Hamas unity government) is likely to succeed because all the parties know that to live together peacefully they must make mutual compromises. This accord has been forged in the furnace of Middle Eastern demographic and political realism, in contrast to the hallucinatory absolutism that often drives American-Israeli policy in this region.

This is not a full defeat for the United States - it's more like a draw. It puts into concrete political form the most powerful force that has defined the Middle East in recent decades: the willingness of individuals, political movements and some governments to openly defy, challenge, resist and occasionally to fight the United States, Israel and their Arab and other allies.

Since 2004, the United States has explicitly, repeatedly and passionately singled out Lebanon as an arena where Hezbollah and other regional Islamist forces backed by Iran and Syria would be faced down and defeated. But now the United States will face these forces from across the same cabinet room table, not as bludgeoned and defeated foes, but rather as partners and colleagues in Lebanon's national unity government. When Hezbollah and its erstwhile foes exchange kisses, a befuddled Condoleezza Rice should take care not to fall off her exercise bicycle.

The United States is a slow learner in the Middle East, where the terrain is strange, the body language bizarre, the fierce power of historical memory incomprehensible, and the negotiating techniques otherworldly. But the United States is not stupid. It learns over time that if you retread a flat tire over and over again, and it keeps going flat on you, perhaps it is time to buy a new tire - if you hope to actually move forward.

Now that we have a draw in the broad ideological confrontation throughout the Middle East that pits Israeli-Americanism against Arab-Islamo nationalism, we should expect the players to reconsider their policies if they wish to make new gains on both sides.

Lebanon, however, is not the most significant recent development reflecting the limits of American power in the Middle East. The truly remarkable manifestation of how the United States has marginalized itself is the conduct of the Israeli government.

The United States has pushed the Israelis hard to do two things in the past two years: Do not negotiate with Syria and do not engage Hamas. What has Israel done during the past few months and more? It has been wisely negotiating with Syria via Turkey, and engaging Hamas on a truce deal through the mediation of Egypt. Hold on, Condi, this gets even worse.

It is no big deal in Washington when nearly 500 million Arabs, Iranians and Turks ignore and defy the United States. But when Israel - the only democracy in the Middle East, America's eternal ally, and the bastion of the epic modern struggle against fascism, totalitarianism, Nazism, communism and terrorism - ignores the United States, that is newsworthy.

So we now have a rare moment in the Middle East. Iran, Turkey, all the Arabs, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Israel all share one and only one common trait: They routinely ignore the advice, and the occasional threats, they get from Washington. Rice was correct in summer 2006 when she said we are witnessing the birth pangs of a new Middle East. But the emerging new regional configuration is very different from the one she fantasized about and tried to bring into being with multiple wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Somalia and Lebanon, and threats against Iran and Syria.

The new rules of the political game in the Middle East are now being written by the key players in the Middle East - and that should be welcomed.

Rami G. Khouri is editor-at-large of The Daily Star and director of the Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs at the American University of Beirut. Distributed by Agence Global.

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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby El Gallo on Mon May 26, 2008 1:28 pm

Rami: You may want to have a Jew and/or Christian describe the nations God prophesied would be destroyed in Numbers 24, Psalm 83, and Ezekiel 39. A new age, or ancient prophecy? Turkey, I believe, will be the Lord of the Rings, so to speak ("One to gather them and to bind them.")
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At the eleventh hour

Postby Seeker on Sat May 31, 2008 8:26 am

At the eleventh hour

The announcement in Ankara of Turkish-sponsored Syrian-Israeli negotiations didn't come as a surprise. Since Syria disclosed that the Turkish prime minister conveyed that Israel was prepared to pull out of the Golan, things have been moving in that direction. Both Israel and Syria have reasons to talk, and Turkey is glad to act as the go-between.

For a long time, Syrian-Israeli negotiations were consistently beset by developments on the Lebanese and Palestinian tracks of Arab-Israeli peace talks. This time, however, things may turn out differently. The negotiations are taking place in the last months of the Bush presidency and perhaps even during Ehud Olmert's last days in office. With the Israeli prime minister under investigation for corruption, many in Israel have been calling for him to step down. There is a chance that Tzipi Livni, Israeli foreign minister, may take his place until early elections are held later in the year. After that, pollsters say, Binyamin Netanyahu, whose hardline policies on Syria are known to all, may emerge as Israel's next leader.

What this means is that these elections are taking place at the eleventh hour. To judge their outcome, one has to assess the motives of the countries involved, as well as the ability of negotiators to reach a feasible settlement. In previous rounds, negotiators came close to agreement, but the deal didn't stick.

Israel's motives for negotiations are not hard to guess. Olmert is trying to boost his popularity by proposing peace with the Syrians -- a prospect that may appease the minds of Israelis shocked by their country's poor performance in the recent war on Lebanon. Olmert wants to come across as a leader who seeks to avoid further wars. A deal with Syria, many would agree, is likely to cool things down on the Gaza front.

Having failed to make a breakthrough in talks with the Palestinian Authority, and with the Palestinians not making a secret of their disappointment with the way negotiations have proceeded, Olmert is hoping to shift attention from Ramallah to Damascus. The whole thing smacks of a déjà vu. For some reason, Israel is in the habit of engaging peace initiatives in the final days of any US presidency. Recall talks between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat at the end of Bill Clinton's presidency.

But there is more at stake for Israel than gaining time or boosting the waning popularity of its leaders. Alarmed by Syria's close ties with Iran, the Israelis think that by giving the Syrians a peace deal, they may entice Damascus to stay away from Tehran. Also, recent developments in Lebanon may have worked in Syria's favour. Israel knows that Syria feels emboldened by Hizbullah's victory in 2006.

The Iranian connection is what made the Israelis eager to talk to Damascus. So what happens if a US- Iranian -- or Israeli-Iranian -- showdown occurs while Syria is in negotiations with the Israelis? Should talks be underway, the Israelis reckon, all-out confrontation in the region may become less of a possibility.

Note too that the talks are taking place under Turkish, rather than American, auspices. The Turks are likely to want to appear as a fair broker, something the Americans have failed to do. And with US popularity, even amongst its friends, diminishing, there is every chance that the Turks would not be too influenced by US views.

Again, much of this is about Iran, which is fast becoming a major player in this region. Both the US and Israel see every development in the region through the prism of their conflict with Iran. Unfortunately, neither the Americans nor the Israelis are willing to go the last mile to a "comprehensive deal" for the region. As for the Syrians, they know that it is in their interest to keep the region's issues tangled up, not separate.

© Copyright Al-Ahram Weekly. All rights reserved

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/899/ed.htm
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Going Their Own Way in The Mideast

Postby Seeker on Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:23 am

Going Their Own Way in The Mideast

By David Ignatius
Sunday, June 1, 2008; Page B07

What happens when a superpower becomes preoccupied by a costly war and loses some of its ability to coerce friends and enemies toward the outcomes it favors? We're seeing a demonstration of that change now in the Middle East, as Arabs and even Israel reckon with the limits of American power -- and begin to cut their own deals.

The new power dynamic is clear in two developments over the past several weeks -- the Lebanon peace deal brokered by Qatar on May 21 and the Israel-Syria peace talks, with Turkish mediation, that were announced the same day. Both negotiations could help stabilize the region, albeit not on the terms the United States might prefer.

This independence from American tutelage is arguably one advantage of the new diplomacy: It is grounded in realism among the Middle Eastern nations about their own interests, rather than in wishful thinking about what the United States can accomplish. It reflects, as well, the growing strength of Iran and its radical allies, and the diminished clout of the United States -- and in that sense, it accords with the altered balance of power in the area.

The best explanation I've seen of this rebalancing came from Beirut-based Daily Star columnist Rami Khouri: "We are witnessing the clear limits of the projection of American global power, combined with the assertion and coexistence of multiple regional powers (Turkey, Israel, Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, etc.)," he wrote. This new alignment, he added, "is not a full defeat for the United States -- more like a draw."

The Lebanon peace deal negotiated in Doha is a classic piece of Arab diplomacy -- a compromise that straddles disparate factions and deep hostilities for the sake of expediency. The Qataris who brokered the deal are themselves a walking embodiment of all the region's contradictions. As Nicholas Blanford noted in the Christian Science Monitor, Qatar is chummy with Iran and at the same time hosts the biggest U.S. air base in the Persian Gulf; it has open links with Israel and also sponsors the anti-Israel polemics of al-Jazeera.

Qatar stepped in to mediate after Hezbollah had defied America and its allies and taken control of West Beirut in a naked display of power. Recognizing that U.S. efforts to check the radical militia had failed, the Lebanese did the pragmatic thing -- they sued for peace under the formula the Bush administration has been resisting for more than a year. The Qatari compromise broke the logjam at last: Lebanon has a new president and an agreement for elections next year. Even some senior administration officials aren't all that unhappy with this outcome.

The Syria-Israel dialogue through Turkey is another example of Middle East realpolitik. It illustrates that when it comes to protecting its own interests, even America's closest ally in the region is going its own way.

The American-Israeli split on Syria has been widening for the past several years. One point of difference was what to do about the nuclear reactor the Syrians were secretly building at Al Kibar, in the northeastern desert, with help from North Korea. The Bush administration wanted to confront the Syrians last year with the intelligence and use the issue to pressure them to dismantle the facility. The Israelis decided they couldn't wait -- and bombed the suspected reactor site on Sept. 6.

The United States feared the Israeli attack might trigger a wider war and insisted on American-Israeli silence to avoid humiliating Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. In the end, the Israelis were right in their prediction that Syria wouldn't retaliate. Instead, according to U.S. intelligence, the Syrians scrambled to hide traces of the reactor they had secretly been building.

The Bush administration was dubious about the Turkish negotiating channel, just as it had balked at the airstrike. But here again, the Israelis ignored their superpower patron. They want to exploit tensions between Syria and Hezbollah, open at least a small gap between Syria and Iran -- and in the process enhance the clout of Turkey as an alternative to a rising Iran. In this intricate dance, Washington has been essentially irrelevant.

America isn't withdrawing from the Middle East, despite its recent difficulties -- that's an Iranian fantasy. And in the long run, it's surely to America's advantage if regional powers can create a stable security architecture -- even if it isn't precisely the one we would have designed for them. We've tried imposing our own solutions, and frankly that hasn't worked very well.

WashingtonPost
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

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US applauds Turkey's efforts for solution of Syrian-Israeli

Postby Seeker on Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:57 pm

US applauds Turkey's efforts for solution of Syrian-Israeli dispute

US State Department spokesperson Sean McCormack said on Monday at a press conference that Turkey's mediation in peace talks between Israel and Syria was worthy of applause.

Responding to a question from reporters referring to remarks from Syrian president Bashar al-Assad suggesting that the support of the US as a broker was needed for the success of talks with Israel, McCormack said he didn't think either side had requested such a thing from the US.

"If the sides and all the parties to this want the United States to participate, it's something we would consider. To my knowledge, we haven't been requested to participate in the process. As a matter of fact, the Turkish government should be applauded for the fact that they are working to further the cause of peace in the region," he said.

He added that the only caution from the US was that Syrian-Israeli talks should not substitute for or in any way distract from the direct negotiations that were under way between Israel and Palestine.

Answering a question about Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan's upcoming visit to Washington, McCormack said US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Babacan would meet on June 5.

"Turkey can play a very important role. It's got a lot of influence. It's an important country. It has a lot of resources. And, moreover, it can be a voice for -- has been and can be a voice for -- peace in the region," he said.

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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

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Postby AndCanItBe on Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:33 pm

Turkey, Iran launch coordinated attacks on Kurds

ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey and Iran have been carrying out coordinated strikes on Kurdish rebels based in northern Iraq, a top Turkish general said Thursday in the first military confirmation of Iranian-Turkish cooperation in the fight against separatists there.
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Gen. Ilker Basbug, Turkey's land forces commander, said the two countries have been sharing intelligence and planned more coordinated attacks in the future against the Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK, and PEJAK, the group's Iranian wing.

"We are sharing intelligence with Iran, we are talking, we are coordinating," CNN-Turk television quoted Basbug as telling reporters on the sidelines of a security conference in Istanbul.

"When they start an operation, we do, too," the general said. "They carry out an operation from the Iranian side of the border, we from the Turkish side."

The report did not give any details on the strikes or the targets. The general said no coordinated action had taken place in the past few months.

"We haven't done it in the past one or two months, but we can do it again," he said.

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Turkish PM urges Mideast countries to overcome problems

Postby Seeker on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:11 pm

Turkish PM urges Mideast countries to overcome problems

www.chinaview.cn 2008-06-12 21:05:57

ANKARA, June 12 (Xinhua) -- Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday that Turkey and Arab states bear great responsibility in the solution of problems encountered in the Middle East and the surrounding region, the semi-official Anatolia news agency reported.

Delivering a speech at the opening of the Turkish-Arab Economic Forum in Istanbul, the largest city of Turkey, Erdogan said that "Problems of our region are not unsolvable. We can solve all of the problems, overcome all hardships and obstacles through solidarity."

Erdogan said he believed the forum would contribute to the economic development, welfare and stability of the regional countries.

"Turkey aims at acting as a bridge of development and prosperity between the Arab world and western countries, and our membership in the European Union will be a major step taken toward peace and stability in the region," Erdogan said.

The Turkish premier also called for improved economic ties between Turkey and the Arab countries, urging Arab businessmen to invest in Turkey in a larger extent.

"We would be very happy to see more Arab entrepreneurs and investors in our country," Erdogan said.

The third Turkish-Arab Economic Forum opened here in Istanbul, under the sponsorship of Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan. The two-day forum will discuss means of boosting cooperation between Turkey and Arab countries in the economic, financial, investment, energy and tourism fields.

The forum is organized by Al-Iktissad Wal-Aamal Group, in cooperation with the Finance Ministry and the Foreign Economic Relations Board in Turkey (DEIK) and the Arab League.

Editor: An Lu

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008- ... 356542.htm
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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'Israel-Syria talks making progress'

Postby kburic0375 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:54 am

'Israel-Syria talks making progress'

Indirect peace talks between Israel and Syria are making progress and both sides agreed to two more rounds under Turkish mediation next month, Turkey's foreign minister said Tuesday.


"The negotiations went very successfully and more importantly the calendar was set for the next two meetings, which will be held in July," Babacan told reporters. He said both sides "were very satisfied" with the negotiations to date.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull
2Cr 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2Cr 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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Postby Seeker on Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:16 am

Hi kburic0375,

Thx I haven't gotten around to the news yet. I was wondering where the next meetings would be at. There has been talk of moving to direct talks, where Turkey would no longer mediate. It looks like the next two meetings will also be in Istanbul (city built on 7 hills) though. I did notice that they were talking "comprehensive peace" again. Turkey has always supported "comprehensive peace". Their view is that it doesn't do a lot of good to solve part of the problem, there needs to be a deal with all the enemies of Israel. I suspect that is why they went through Syria to begin with. They really couldn't butt into the Palestinian talks the US is involved with. My guess is the world will eventually see the progress Turkey is making toward peace and entrust the Palestinian treaty with Turkey as well. Turkey should start to move the talks to a more comprehensive platform in an attempt to solve the whole problem rather than pieces of it.

Peace,
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Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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It looks like a peace deal has been cut with Syria

Postby Seeker on Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:50 pm

It looks like a peace deal has been cut with Syria

By Ted Belman

While media attention has been focused on the Palestinian track where no progress has been made and no real pressure applied, serious work has been going on with Syria.

You will recall that the Iraq Study Group under Baker recommended in November ’06, that the US should engage Syria and Iran about Iraq without preconditions. While Bash and Rice rejected the recommendations publicly, they went about following them.

The Annapolis Conference held one year later was part of that new dialogue. Syria was induced to attend because, there was added to the agenda, under the title “Comprehensive Peace”, the Syrian tract and the Lebanon tract. Syria left empty handed and began plotting moves to get satisfaction. In late January, Hezbollah started challenging the Siniora government in Lebanon. This culminated in a mini civil war followed by the Doha Compromise in the last week of May, which strengthened Hezbollah and installed General Sulieman as President. He is known as a Syrian ally.

Much to my surprise, the US backed the agreement and Israel used that as an occasion to announce peace talks with Syria under the auspices of Turkey. Evidently informal talks had been going on for some time. The timing of the announcement may have had more to do with Doha than with Talanski.

Just three weeks later Israel is conceding the Shebaa Farms. This can only signal a final deal with Syria is in the offing.

On Sunday two French emissaries visited Damascus with the offer of Shebaa farms. The next day, Condi Rice departed from her stated mission of moving the Palestinian tract forward to go to Beirut to cement the deal. Finally the EU announced an upgrading of ties to Israel with a perfunctory nod to the peace process.

The French are hoping to have both Syrian President Assad and PM Olmert attend their Conference of Mediterranean States on July 13 at which time the two would “meet”. Finally, without interminable negations for the release of Goldwasser and Regev, as is the case with Shalit, we hear that the two are expected to be released within weeks.

All these events are connected and suggest that a deal has been cut for he return of the Golan and final peace with Lebanon and Syria. It may be that the real reason for the “lull” with Hamas is to enable these events to play out. As I suggested in another article another reason for accepting the lull may be the belief that a future worse conflict can be avoided.

Bush gave a telling interview in Paris a few days ago in which he said

“When you go to the Middle East and you sit in my seat and listen, yes, there’s concern about the Palestinian state. But the dialogue has shifted dramatically from ’solve the Palestinian state and you’ve solved the problems in the Middle East’ to, now, ’solve the Iranian issue and you solve the problems in the Middle East’.”
And so it has.

The US strategy is to first get Syria sorted away and then work on Iran with the full cooperation of the EU.

If all this comes to pass as I have suggested, a peace deal will be forced on Israel, and the PA the terms of which may already have been agreed to between Israel and the US. Just today Condi Rice is interfering in negotiations between Israel and the PA by siding with the division of Jerusalem. So much for allowing the parties to negotiate final status issues.

http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=1323#more-1323
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby kburic0375 on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:04 pm

:shock: :clock:
2Cr 4:16 Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.
2Cr 4:17 For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2Cr 4:18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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The Stealth Jihad in Turkey

Postby Seeker on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:15 am

The Stealth Jihad in Turkey

Anyone opposed to the global jihad should be watching recent developments in Turkey very closely -- not just for what they reveal about the direction in which that country is headed, but so as to understand nothing less than the new direction of the jihad movement.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, along with President Abdullah Gul and their ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP), have been moving for quite some time to dismantle Turkish secularism and transform Turkey into a state governed by Islamic law. But as Prime Minister, Erdogan has not engaged in a direct assault on Turkish secularism. Instead, he and the AKP have steadily chipped away at it, reintroducing provisions of Islamic law piece by piece, while professing to uphold the country's secular character.

In 2004 Erdogan took steps to criminalize adultery, and late in 2005 the AKP banned alcoholic beverages in government cafes and restaurants in Ankara. In May 2008 a new law came into effect that effectively outlawed sale of alcohol by the glass in bars and restaurants.

In the 1990s, as mayor of Istanbul, Erdogan was forthright about this goal, expressing his opposition to secularism in no uncertain terms: "You cannot be both secular and a Muslim! You will either be a Muslim, or secular!...It is not possible for a person who says 'I am a Muslim' to go on and say 'I am secular too.' And why is that? Because Allah, the creator of the Muslim, has absolute power and rule!"

Saying that Allah has "absolute power and rule" is a fundamentally political statement. And from its inception Islam has been a political and social system, not just a religious faith in the way most Westerners conceive of religion. The establishment of Islamic law as the only legitimate system of government is a goal that Erdogan shares with Osama bin Laden and other jihadists around the world; they only differ regarding the best means to go about this.

While Al-Qaeda and other jihad groups have focused on violent attacks on Western targets, Erdogan has shown himself a master of the stealth jihad: the slow, steady, step-by-step encroachment upon secular societal norms, continuing until Islamic law is fully in place.

This effort is proceeding, too, in the West. As a Muslim Brotherhood operative, Mohamed Akram, put it in 1991 memorandum outlining the organization's strategy in the United States: "The Muslim Brotherhood must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah's religion is made victorious over all other religions." Akram explained that this sabotaging of Western civilization would take place not through terror attacks, but by numerous non-violent initiatives carried out by a variety of Islamic organizations. With the public geared to be on guard only against terror attacks, these efforts would slip by unnoticed.

And so they have in Turkey -- at least up until last week. In line with its small-step, indirect approach, for years now the government has been trying to overturn the law banning the Islamic headscarf in Turkish universities. But on Thursday the Turkish Constitutional Court, the nation's highest court, overturned a new AKP-backed law allowing the headscarf in universities, saying it contravened the Constitutional tenets providing for Turkish secularism. With the possibility looming that the Constitutional Court could even ban the AKP itself, on the grounds that it posed a threat to Turkey's Constitutional order, Erdogan canceled a trip to Switzerland and returned to Ankara, where he and his top aides met in an emergency strategy meeting on Friday. If the party is outlawed, Erdogan and Gul could be barred from holding political office.

The Turkish courts and military have intervened to save Turkish secularism before. They may now, and soon again. If Erdogan were to be down, he would not be out, and analysts would be well-advised to study his stealth jihad in Turkey: there are groups in Western Europe and the U.S. that are pursuing exactly the same kind of small-scale, step-by-step approach that the AKP has followed with so much success until last week.

With story after story appearing documenting the disarray and decay of Al-Qaeda, the stealth jihad could be the wave of the future around the world. And its guiding light, however his personal political fortunes may shift, will be Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

By Robert Spencer
www.humanevents.com

© 2008, Assyrian International News Agency. All Rights Reserved. Terms of Use.

http://www.aina.org/news/20080612115805.htm
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Syria: Peace with Israel will be 'bliss'

Postby Seeker on Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:44 am

Syria: Peace with Israel will be 'bliss'

By JPOST.COM STAFF

A senior Syrian official has expressed confidence regarding the possibility that indirect peace talks with Israel will come to fruition, saying that a peace agreement would be a source of "bliss" in the Middle East.

"When people can move freely between Syria, Israel, Palestine, Jordan and Egypt, a great change will take place," Syrian Deputy Foreign Minister Faisal al-Miqdad told the Chicago Tribune. "Our people will enjoy life without bad dreams of the martyrdom of their children, we will improve living conditions and we will open up to the international community."

"The impact of peace will be bliss for the entire region," he added.

Syria, Miqdad claimed, was aware that there could be no direct talks with Israel without the involvement of the US.

The Jerusalem Post
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Postby Seeker on Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:08 pm

The Case Against Turkey's Ruling Party

by Michael Rubin
The American
June 20, 2008

Sometime this summer, Turkey's Constitutional Court will decide whether Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) violated the "principles of a democratic and secular republic" that undergird the Turkish constitution and should be barred from politics. Across the Turkish political spectrum, most officials expect the Court to rule against the AKP, thus dissolving the party and banning Erdoğan and his closest aides for at least five years.

Although the prime minister, Foreign Minister Ali Babacan, and influential AKP advisers have tried to depict this as the unjust outgrowth of a dispute over headscarves in public universities—and perhaps even a "judicial coup"—the case is legitimate.

Erdoğan's supporters often point to his embrace of the European Union accession process as proof of his liberalism. But Erdoğan has used the EU accession process to unravel Turkey's system of checks and balances. He cares little for EU institutions. When the European Court of Human Rights upheld a ban on headscarves in public schools—the same ban that the Turkey's own Constitutional Court later upheld—Erdoğan chastised the European justices for applying civil law to a religious matter, declaring, "It is wrong that those who have no connection to this field [of religion] make such a decision…without consulting religious scholars."

Europe's encouragement of Turkish reforms has been important. In a mature democracy, the military should remain aloof from politics. Brussels should be applauded for pressuring Turkey to reform its National Security Council to give the powerful body a civilian majority with a civilian head. By failing to encourage the creation of an alternate check-and-balance mechanism to replace the military's traditional role as guardian of the constitution, however, the EU committed diplomatic malpractice. Erdoğan seized the opportunity to run roughshod over Turkish secularism and democracy.

Indeed, despite its self-description as secular, liberal, and democratic, the AKP is quite the opposite. Babacan ordered Turkish officials to remove references to secularism from Turkey's position paper ahead of EU negotiations over education policy. Domestically, the AKP has placed religion above the law. Turkey has long regulated supplemental Koran schools, ensuring instructor qualifications and imposing minimum age requirements to prevent indoctrination. When Saudi mullahs fanned out across Europe, the Middle East, and Central Asia to promote a radical version of Islam, they largely bypassed Turkey. No longer. Not only did the AKP loosen limits upon the religious schools, but it also eviscerated the penalties for violations, leading some illegal madrassas to begin advertising openly.

As he consolidates power, Erdoğan has become the Turkish Vladimir Putin. Upon taking office, Erdoğan sought to lower the mandatory retirement age for public servants from 65 to 61, which effectively allowed his party to appoint almost half of the nation's prosecutors and judges. With patronage appointments, the prime minister transformed technocratic bodies such as the Savings Deposit Insurance Fund (TMSF), an entity empowered to seize private businesses and media outlets, into virtual party wings. The TMSF today is staffed almost entirely by appointees transferred from Saudi-based financial institutions.

Placement in key ministries and government departments used to depend on success in civil service exams. Erdoğan imposed a subjective interview process that enabled him to choose political loyalists. The practice spread to state-owned industries; Turkish Airlines, for example, began quizzing employees on the Koran. Women have suffered the most. As analyst Soner Çağaptay observes in Newsweek, "under the AKP, women are largely excluded from decision-making positions in government and the workforce, relegated to the confines of their homes.".....


Michael Rubin, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, is editor of the Middle East Quarterly.

© 2008 The Middle East Forum

http://www.meforum.org/article/1924
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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Can Turkey’s Anti-Terrorism Cooperation with Iran Lead to

Postby Seeker on Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:37 am

Can Turkey’s Anti-Terrorism Cooperation with Iran Lead to a Strategic Partnership?

06/24/2008 - By Emrullah Uslu (from Terrorism Focus, June 24) - Turkish Land Forces Commander General Ilker Basbug surprised some by announcing a partnership between Turkey and Iran in the fight against the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) terrorist organization (Cumhuriyet, June 6). In fact, the debate on choosing Iran as a close partner is not new. In 2002, the then secretary of the National Security Council, General Tuncer Kilinc, suggested that “Turkey should be in search of new partnerships with Iran and Russia because the European Union does not help us at all” (Turkish Daily News, March 9, 2002; Sabah, March 3). The general’s remarks received harsh criticism from the Turkish press and other political observers at the time (Central Asia-Caucasus Analyst, May 8, 2002). This begs the question: What forms the common ground for Turco-Iranian relations? Is it a strategic partnership to smash the PKK, or is it a fundamental policy shift as Gen. Kilinc suggested back in 2002? The answers to these questions lie in the future U.S. position on the issue of northern Iraq in general and the status of Kirkuk in particular. Prof. Umit Ozdag, who maintains close ties with the military, argues that Turkey and Iran grew closer because the United States ignored Turkey’s vital interests in northern Iraq and used the Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan (PJAK—Iranian Kurdish militants closely allied to the PKK) as its proxy against Iran, which eventually forced Iran to target both the PKK and PJAK. In other words, the dynamics of U.S.-Iranian relations have produced cooperation between Iran and Turkey based on “mutual interests.” ....

http://www.jamestown.org/news_details.php?news_id=329
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
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