The beinning of the 70th week

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:00 pm

Ready 1, well stated.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:30 pm

Ready1 wrote:Let's not be obtuse, Mr Baldy. You are “yelling” the same thing over and over and over, looking only at what you assume to be obvious.


Ready1, let me first apologize if I came across as yelling - as it does certainly appear to be that way. But boy does your responses need help.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:35 pm

Ready1 wrote:There is one thing that you, Mr. Baldy, and I will agree upon. That is the fact that Jesus died in the year immediately following the closure of the sixty-ninth week.


Then if you agree that Jesus died in the 70th week as it most assuredly followed the 69th week - the rest of what you and others are saying as it relates to the 70th week "starting" or even ending at some unknown "magic" point is just pure conjecture.
You have absolutely no Scripture support or any other evidence that can support your claim.

You can dream up all these fantasies all you like - but they don't add up to a hill of beans when it comes down to the facts.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:40 pm

1whowaits wrote:i thought Mr B was here for comic relief, all the 'yelling' was for fun and not to be taken seriously.


Ha ha ha........even I got a laugh out of that 1whowaits. :mrgreen:

However, I find it very interesting that you cannot support your claim - that being the Subject matter of this Tread. Now, most certainly there is nothing comical about that at all - as a matter of fact, it can be considered down right shameful.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:42 pm

mrgravyard49 wrote:LOL WHy do you all debate Mr. B?? After all he wrote the Book..


And you keep coming back for more! :sunshine:

And you will continue to come back, because you know I love TRUTH.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:44 pm

Ready1 wrote:There is one thing that you, Mr. Baldy, and I will agree upon. That is the fact that Jesus died in the year immediately following the closure of the sixty-ninth week.



Then if you agree that Jesus died in the 70th week as it most assuredly followed the 69th week - the rest of what you and others are saying as it relates to the 70th week "starting" or even ending at some unknown "magic" point is just pure conjecture.
You have absolutely no Scripture support or any other evidence that can support your claim.

You can dream up all these fantasies all you like - but they don't add up to a hill of beans when it comes down to the facts
.

Did I accurately predict what you would say? Yup! Here it is... :shock:

Now at this point you will be jumping up and down and saying, SEE, SEE, HE WAS KILLED IN THE 70TH WEEK!!!


Did you even read any of what I wrote? I gave you scripture after scripture and tied them together! I think at this point I will let you debate with yourself. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:48 pm

Sorry, 1whowaits, that the topic has gotten so far off track. I appreciate your efforts and largely am in agreement with your posts. I will have to think on the Jubilee thing as it is a new thought for me. We would track pretty closely in understanding in this area. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:18 pm

Hello

Perhaps, we all should all take a step back and refrain from calling the 1 week of years in Daniel 9:27, the 70th Week but rather call it "the 7 years of Dan 9:27" or "the 1 week of Daniel 9:27."

By doing this, we do not confuse the weeks with each other that are found in Daniel 9:24, 25 and 27.

Previously I had posted that the Daniel 9:24 prophecy began in the year 494 BC and ended at the end of 1 BC as in the year 1 AD the visitation of the sins of the fathers on their children and their children's children in the third and the fourth had begun. The 490 years like being suggested by Ready 1 is the length of Grace that was shown by God for Israel to repent of their sin of consistent idolatrous worship from the time that Isaac was born and the Nation of Israel began.

Dan 9:24 can be paraphrased in the following manner:-

"Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,

To
a/. finish the transgression,
and
b/. To make an end of sins,

Then after the 490 years of Grace, the Messiah from among your people will: -

1/. make reconciliation for iniquity,
2/. bring in everlasting righteousness,
3/. seal up vision and prophecy,
And
4/. anoint the Most Holy.

Daniel 9:25 can be paraphrase in the following manner: -

Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem in the year 447 BC
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times will be finished in the year 26 AD

Daniel 9:26a can be paraphrased in the following manner: -

"And after the sixty-two weeks which ended in the year 26 AD when the majority of the work on Herod's temple was completed,
The Messiah shall be crucified on a cross, on behalf of all of humanity.

Daniel 9:26b can be paraphrased in the following manner: -

And the people of the prince, the little horn of Daniel 8, a fallen angel/heavenly host, who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war in heaven in our near future, desolations are determined.


There is a period of time of around some 2,000 years for the Prophecy found in Daniel 9:26b to be completed.

It is after this time that the Son of Man is given dominion over the peoples of the earth, such that they should worship Him.

Daniel 9:27 can be paraphrased in the following manner: -

Then, in our distant future when the bottomless pit is unlocked and the fallen heavenly angels/hosts are released for a short time, he, the little horn, shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one, Satan, who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on him and he is dispatched into the Lake of Fire by Christ."

The 7 years of Daniel 9:27 is very much a distant future event.

Shalom
Last edited by Jay Ross on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:19 pm

Ok Ready1,

Let's get down to the meat of some of the things you have posted:

Ready1 wrote:a. If Mr Baldy is right, then i. Jesus was killed in the 70th week. ii. Daniel’s six fulfilments of the 70 weeks don’t matter, or iii. All six of the important fulfilments of the 70 weeks have already been accomplished iv. The AOD has been here and gone. v. Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about, or vi. Jesus has returned and we are living in the millennium (or make that the third millennium) vii. Daniel timetable was in error concerning the AOD.


After reading your aforementioned comments all I can do is: :twoheadbang:

When understanding Prophecy, it has come to my understanding that it is sooooooooo HARD to get Believers to do their own Research. They very often go by what Others have told them, and will not pray to seek the Truth - or allow their minds to "think outside of the proverbial box" to learn for themselves. I find that AMAZING.

Additionally, in your aforementioned comments - I don't need you to complete anything that I mean with your unsolicited comments, which is really your own interpretaton. They do don't represent what I have stated, nor does anything you mention make any sense whatsoever. So therefore, you cannot speak for me. Why don't you ask me how I view certain things before you begin to misrepresent my logic, and understanding?

Using your own Platform - then if I am right - and according to my understanding:

I) Jesus was crucified in the 70th week - Scripture supports this in Daniel 9:25-26
ii) Daniels six requirements were initiated and/or brought in with the Birth; Death; and Resurrection of Christ.
iii) Daniels six requirements speak VERY CLEARLY of the Birth; Death; and Resurrection of Christ - the 70wks point to HIM
iv) The AOD as I have previously mentioned is set forth for a future date; and has NOTHING to do with the 70th week
v) I will not even dignify a response to your very nonsensical statement
vi) Another purely nonsensical statement made by you by very faulty interpretation
vii) Yet another purely nonsensical statement made by you on a very faulty interpretation of Scripture.

You then write this:

Ready1 wrote:b. If Mr. Baldy is wrong, then i. Jesus was killed in the year following the 69th week but it is not a part of the 70 weeks. ii. Daniel’s six fulfilments of the 70 weeks are important and will yet be accomplished. iii. Jesus will be the one to fulfil all of the six important fulfilments. They will be accomplished by the end of the last week. iv. Daniel gave an accurate timetable concerning the AOD and the final week. v. Jesus did know what he was talking about and the AOD has not yet appeared but rather is a sign by which the whole world will know that the return of Jesus is very, very near. vi. Jesus is coming again to complete the final week. vii. Jesus is coming in power and glory.


My response, using your platform to establish your comments are:

i) Jesus was indeed killed in the year following the 69th week - It's called the 70th week - (a no brainer)
ii) Daniel 6 requirements are important - and pointed to CHRIST: His Birth, Death, and Resurrection fulfilled this req.
iii) Duh - this is what I have been saying the whole time
iv) No response required - you just have a faulty interpretation in my opinion
v) The AOD Jesus mentioned is a separate Prophecy - and has nothing to do with the 70 weeks determined
vi) There is no such thing as a "Final Week". 70 weeks were determined - pointed to Jesus and it has been completed.
vii) Amen

In closing Ready1 - I'm not asking anyone to agree with me, but you certainly need to Rightly Divide Scripture and not use preconceived ideas based on what has been put forth by many Theologians that can't seem to put their facts together in a common agreement. After all- there is a TRUTH available.

You have conceded that Jesus was Crucified in the 70th week. My suggestion to you, and anyone who may be reading this is: Just please consider that the 3.5 years that is mentioned over, and over and over again in Scripture just may not have anything to do with the 70th week - so why hold on to conjecture?

Do your own homework. View Scripture and see if it adds up. For years the Theologians have been telling us there is going to be a Pre-Tribulation Rapture; the Saints will not see the coming Antichrist; and there is a mysterious "GAP" in time called the Church Age; and there will be a 7 year Tribulation period.

Guess what ALL these have in common? Well they are all 100% WRONG - and none of it can be supported with Scripture.

Why does the Final 3.5 year period of time that is consistently being mentioned over, and over, and over again in Scripture have to be united with the 70th Week? Why isn't anyone (beside myself and a few others) questioning this?

Well............I'll leave it up to the readers to decide on their own. Because so far, there is NOTHING in this Thread that has been mentioned supports the fact that there is this mysterious 'GAP' in time - and the 70th week has not been completed.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby mrgravyard49 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:21 pm

When we finally get to Heaven, we are ALL going to find out how very much we got wrong.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:14 pm

Mr G, yes, we see through a glass darkly, there is much we do not understand. But as the time approaches one would assume that our eyes will be opened and we will see more clearly, and so we watch and wait...
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:33 pm

Ready 1, i appreciate your input. During the time before the first coming of Jesus, if one were to look at Dan 9 one could have made a determination of the time that Jesus would come, after the 69 weeks, when He was 'cut off' from Israel.

My thought is that a similar timeline for the second coming might be in scripture, right in front of us. Considering Isa 61 and 63, the timing of the Year of Jubilee would appear to be a possible key to at least the year of the second coming at armageddon.

The ultimate goal of the 70 weeks is for Israel to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and King. Israel was given that choice at the end of the 69 weeks, and she rejected her Messiah and King, she failed in the goals set for her in Daniel 9.

God could have let the final week play out after the crucifixion, condemning Israel to never being able to fulfill God's plan for her laid out in Dan 9. But in His mercy, He allowed a period of time to elapse, giving Israel a second chance to complete His plan for her. A plan that Israel will complete, the goals of Dan 9 will be met, after the final seven years elapse and are completed at armageddon.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:55 pm

Mr B, actually, i am not sure what the Subject matter of this 'Tread' is. Is it like a tire 'Tread'? Or don't 'Tread' on me? Or 'Tread' lightly?
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:31 pm

1whowaits wrote:Ready 1, i appreciate your input. During the time before the first coming of Jesus, if one were to look at Dan 9 one could have made a determination of the time that Jesus would come, after the 69 weeks, when He was 'cut off' from Israel.


Agreed. It is for this reason that Simeon & Anna were daily in the temple...they knew that they were in the time frame.

My thought is that a similar timeline for the second coming might be in scripture, right in front of us. Considering Isa 61 and 63, the timing of the Year of Jubilee would appear to be a possible key to at least the year of the second coming at armageddon.


Very possible. I'll have to go back and look at some scriptures with this in mind.

The ultimate goal of the 70 weeks is for Israel to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and King. Israel was given that choice at the end of the 69 weeks, and she rejected her Messiah and King, she failed in the goals set for her in Daniel 9.


Yes, and had that happened, then Jesus would have accomplished all of the requirements of Dan 9:27 at that time.

God could have let the final week play out after the crucifixion, condemning Israel to never being able to fulfill God's plan for her laid out in Dan 9. But in His mercy, He allowed a period of time to elapse, giving Israel a second chance to complete His plan for her. A plan that Israel will complete, the goals of Dan 9 will be met, after the final seven years elapse and are completed at armageddon.


Furthermore, God in His infinite mercy knew that there was a reason for it all!

Rom 11:11 I ask, then: When the Jews stumbled, did they fall to their ruin? By no means! Because they sinned, salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make the Jews jealous of them.
Rom 11:12 The sin of the Jews brought rich blessings to the world, and their spiritual poverty brought rich blessings to the Gentiles. Then, how much greater the blessings will be when the complete number of Jews is included! GNB

Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:24 am

Ready 1, agreed.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:59 am

The ultimate goal of the 70 weeks is for Israel to repent and accept Jesus as Messiah and King. Israel was given that choice at the end of the 69 weeks, and she rejected her Messiah and King, she failed in the goals set for her in Daniel 9

This above statement is incorrect.
The goals of the 70 weeks are stated clearly in Daniel 9:24 and Christ's crucifixion was necessary to accomplish those goals. It is the rejection of their Messiah that accomplished the goals. Daniel's people and their city accomplished the goals listed in Daniel 9:24 and they did this during the 70th week, the week Christ was cut-off, the week following the 69 weeks.

Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.

If Daniel's people and their city had not accomplished their goals, then:
1) All of us would still be enslaved to sin,
2) Christ would not be our atonement, and would not have died in our stead,
3) There would be no everlasting righteousness for us to be clothed

John 12:40
"HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM."

God blinded the eyes of Daniel's people so they would accomplish the goals listed in Daniel 9:24 by crucifying Christ. Why? Because He is merciful and wanted redemption for ALL mankind.

The fact is Christ's crucifixion accomplished the goals of Daniel 9:24.
The only way for those goals to have been accomplished is for the Jews to have rejected their Messiah.
It is their rejection of Christ that accomplished the goals; not some future acceptance and repentance on the part of the Jewish people.

This above quoted statement is most definitely incorrect.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:42 pm

Hello

The problem, as I perceive it is the confusion that is created when we attempt to run the five independent prophecies contain in Daniel 9:24-27 into one prophecy.

Let us modify the words in 1whowaits' original statement to help clarify what happened with respect to the Daniel 9:24-26 prophecies: -

One of the goals of the Daniel 9:24's 70 weeks of years prophecy is for Israel to repent of their idolatrous worship by the time Christ was born in 4 BC.

Then through the Ministry of Christ, the other four Goals in Daniel 9:24, was put in place by the year 30 AD by Christ.

The prophecy in Daniel 9:25 was fulfilled in the year 26BC when the reconstruction of Jerusalem was completed. One of the last building projects completed, was Herod's Temple.

During Christ's ministry Israel was given a choice of either enduring under the heavy yoke of the visitation of their iniquities of idolatrous worship upon then during the third and the fourth period of ages, or the light yoke of Christ's rest when He said: -

Matthew 11:25-30: - At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Coupled with Christ's statement is this passage from Isaiah: -

Isaiah 6:9-13: -

And He said, "Go, and tell this people:

'Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.'

"Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed."

Then I said, "Lord, how long?"

And He answered:

"Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant,
The houses are without a man,
The land is utterly desolate,
The Lord has removed men far away,
And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
But yet a tenth will be in it,
And will return and be for consuming,

As a terebinth tree or as an oak,
Whose stump remains when it is cut down.
So the holy seed shall be its stump."

Again this is recorded in John: -

John 12:37-50: - But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

"Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"

Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: -

"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."

These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Walk in the Light

Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

Then three years after Herod's temple was completed, Christ was crucified as was prophesied in Daniel 9:26a.

Then Daniel 9:26b is a reaffirming of the Isaiah 6:9-13 and provides a little more information as to how the land will be made desolate and it hints at the extent of the time that the Land of Canaan will be devastated with its reference to the end of the war. The war being spoken about is the war in Heaven against Satan and his angels and is also recorded in Revelation 12:7-11.

The separate prophecy found in Daniel 9:27 is separated from the finish of the Daniel 9:26b prophecy by a little over 1,000 years as is recorded in Revelation 20:1-3.

By wanting to put the five Daniel 9:24-27 separate prophecies into some sort of mathematical sequential order, is an error foisted on us by people who as Isaiah stated in chapter 6 cannot see or understand God's word even if it be dimly.

Just like the people wanted to believe what Jesus was teaching in John 12:42-43, they did not openly confess their faith in God's word lest they be put out of their "synagogue of acceptance" by the bulling Pharisees of their time. Are we any better?

Shalom
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:07 pm

Keith, so you are saying that we need to use reverse logic, by not fulfilling the goals set in Dan 9, Israel inadvertently did fulfill the goals, kinda like fulfilling the goals by accident.

Jesus fulfilled His goals in bringing salvation to the gentiles. The goals in Dan 9 were set for Israel to fulfill, not repenting and rejecting her Messiah and King did not fulfill the goals for ISRAEL, which is clearly who the goals were intended for.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:39 pm

1whowaits wrote:Keith, so you are saying that we need to use reverse logic, by not fulfilling the goals set in Dan 9, Israel inadvertently did fulfill the goals, kinda like fulfilling the goals by accident.

Jesus fulfilled His goals in bringing salvation to the gentiles. The goals in Dan 9 were set for Israel to fulfill, not repenting and rejecting her Messiah and King did not fulfill the goals for ISRAEL, which is clearly who the goals were intended for.


What keith has mentioned is Partly True, and what you, 1WW, have said is Partly True.

Could it be that a Partially Historic and Partially Futurist perspective may be correct instead?

I think so.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:55 am

1WhoWaits,

No reverse logic involved.

It was always God's plan, from before the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve were created, that Christ would die for us so that we would be adopted sons. To ensure this plan succeeded, God blinded the Jews eyes and hardened their hearts to make certain they crucified His Son. This is also why Jesus spoke in parables, so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see.

If you doubt this, then remember one of the Daniel 9:24 goals was for Daniel's people and their city to "finish the transgression". Finish as in "complete", like finishing a job means completing a job. To "finish" something does not mean to repent of doing it; it means to continue doing it until it is complete. They were given 70 weeks to finish (complete) their transgression and they did so by crucifying God's Son during the 70th week and God made sure they would crucify His Son by blinding them and hardening their hearts as John 12:40 describes.

There is no reverse logic involved.
The plan was always, from the foundation of the world, for the Jews to crucify Christ.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:25 am

keithareilly wrote:1WhoWaits,

No reverse logic involved.

It was always God's plan, from before the foundation of the world, before Adam and Eve were created, that Christ would die for us so that we would be adopted sons. To ensure this plan succeeded, God blinded the Jews eyes and hardened their hearts to make certain they crucified His Son. This is also why Jesus spoke in parables, so that hearing they would not hear and seeing they would not see.

If you doubt this, then remember one of the Daniel 9:24 goals was for Daniel's people and their city to "finish the transgression". Finish as in "complete", like finishing a job means completing a job. To "finish" something does not mean to repent of doing it; it means to continue doing it until it is complete. They were given 70 weeks to finish (complete) their transgression and they did so by crucifying God's Son during the 70th week and God made sure they would crucify His Son by blinding them and hardening their hearts as John 12:40 describes.

There is no reverse logic involved.
The plan was always, from the foundation of the world, for the Jews to crucify Christ.

Keith


:a3:


Additionally, Scripture very clearly indicates that Christ Died in the 70th week. So in answer to the Subject matter of this Thread - the 70th week has already begun and was subsequently completed.

If there is any so-called "reverse logic" here it has to relate to the Subject matter of this Thread.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:32 am

keithareilly wrote:..............one of the Daniel 9:24 goals was for Daniel's people and their city to "finish the transgression". Finish as in "complete", like finishing a job means completing a job. To "finish" something does not mean to repent of doing it; it means to continue doing it until it is complete.

Daniel 8
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

........................16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

.........................23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Keith,
Because at some point in history there has been the Highest Point or Pinnacle of Transgression against God does not Also Mean that there has been a Finishing of it.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:24 pm

Shorttrib wrote
Keith,

Because at some point in history there has been the Highest Point or Pinnacle of Transgression against God does not Also Mean that there has been a Finishing of it.


If I plant a peach tree in fertile soil, I have finished what I can do. Just because I have finished what I can do does not mean there are peaches on the tree. The pinnacle is the planting; we can expect fruit of the pinnacle to come forth.

When desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, when sin is "finished" it brings forth death.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:17 pm

Keith, the goals of Dan 9 are directed at Israel alone, they are not directed at the gentiles, they were to be completed by Israel.

God made this plan in the past specifically for Israel and He made the plan on how it was to be fulfilled by Israel. Following your logic, Israel fulfilled the specific goals set by God in Dan 9 for Israel, by rejecting and executing God's Son, the designated Messiah for Israel. This would then mean that it was God's plan for Israel to sin and crucify the Messiah as fulfillment of His plan. This would then make God the author of Israel's sin, which He is not.

Israel was to finish transgression and put an end to sin in Dan 9, by your logic Israel committed sin to end sin. Has Israel's transgression and sin been ended or completed? Is Israel no longer guilty of sin? As Israel still exists, does Israel no longer sin as her sin has been completed?

By executing the designated Messiah and King for Israel, did Israel anoint the Most Holy? By committing sin did Israel atone for wickedness, seal up vision and prophecy, and bring in everlasting righteousness?

Logically, the only way Israel can complete the goals set for her by God in Dan 9 is for Israel to repent of her sin, accept Jesus as Messiah, and anoint Him as King, which she will do when Jesus returns at armageddon, much of which is described in Zech 12-14.

Which means the 70th week has not been completed yet.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:13 am

1whowaits wrote:Which means the 70th week has not been completed yet.


According to you - it hasn't even started yet. Scripture however, seems to disagree with your logic.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:36 am

Mr Baldy wrote:1. Respectively - the aforementioned passage of Scripture is not enough evidence to conclude that there is "any" portion in time that would necessitate a "GAP", or in essence suggest that time has stopped only because Jesus did not quote the entire passage.

2. Again, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled. But I respect your opinion.


When we were back talking about Is 61:1-2 and Luke 4:16-21, Mr Baldy made these two statements. At the time I did not address them, but they are erroneous enough to re-examine. Mr. Baldy can only make Statement 1 because he believes Statement 2. But Jesus is God. Jesus is all knowing, is everywhere present, and all powerful. He is bound by his own Character to be who he is. He is completely truthful and honest in all that he does and says.

What does that mean when we look at these two passages? First it means that when Jesus took the scrolls or the book, he was completely honest in his teaching ministry and was prepared to enlighten the synagogue as to the truth of the passage. Secondly, because of his nature as God, he was sharing heavenly truth proclaimed many years before by Isaiah the prophet.

So the question becomes: Would Jesus have not shared the fact that the “day of vengeance of our God” had come, if in fact it had really come? If it was truly an accomplished fact, could Jesus have withheld it from the knowledge of the synagogue on that day? If he had withheld the information, would he have been honest, or would he have been accountable to God for withholding true information and thence have been guilty of deception? (Dishonesty by omission and dishonesty by commission are still dishonesty.)

And a corollary question follows immediately: Could Jesus have said that the “day of vengeance of our God” had occurred, if in fact it really hadn’t? This question is more overt, and it is a fact that if he had said that it had occurred when in fact it had not occurred, that would have been dishonest and out of His own Character as God the Son.

When Jesus began reading this passage he was committed to tell the truth about it, and he did so. So to say that , “…there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled” says that Jesus was guilty of dishonesty, either by omission or commission.

The only other point to attack on the passage is the credibility of the author of the book, Luke. Luke is pretty positive in his reporting. Please note that is Luke who states that Jesus finished his reading at that specific point and “closed the book”. Luke is the reporter and his points are as follows.

1. It occurred in Nazareth on the Sabbath day, in the synagogue.
2. Jesus stood up to read from Isaiah where the following was written,
3. The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
4. He hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor;
5. He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted,
6. To preach deliverance to the captives,
7. To preach recovering of sight to the blind,
8. To set at liberty them that are bruised,
9. To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
10. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
11. And everybody looked at him to see what he would say
12. And he said, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

To attack the credibility of the reporter, seems to say that he really didn’t get it all right. While I don’t know that Mr Baldy is saying this, it seems to be the only place left to argue his position from his words. If we make this conclusion, then we say that the Bible is not inerrant and we destroy the God breathed words of His Holy Book.

In my understanding, Jesus closed the book as recorded by Luke at the statement “,,,to preach the acceptable year of the Lord” for the simple reason that His Character required that he disclose on that day, to that synagogue, that this portion of scripture was fulfilled. If more of the scripture had been fulfilled, then he, by his nature, would have been required to reveal that as well. But because it was not yet fulfilled, He could not include it with the rest of the passage and remain honest before God and man. The only other point possible was if Luke made an error.

The truth is that a portion of Isaiah 61:1-2 was fulfilled on that day in Nazareth and a portion of it will have its fulfilment yet in the future.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:48 am

Ready1 wrote:The truth is that a portion of Isaiah 61:1-2 was fulfilled on that day in Nazareth and a portion of it will have its fulfilment yet in the future.

:a3:
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:05 am

Hi Ready1,

Let's address a couple of things that you have mentioned:


Mr Baldy wrote:
1. Respectively - the aforementioned passage of Scripture is not enough evidence to conclude that there is "any" portion in time that would necessitate a "GAP", or in essence suggest that time has stopped only because Jesus did not quote the entire passage.

2. Again, there is absolutely no evidence that would suggest that Jesus stopped reading this passage of Scripture because some "think" He did so, because it was not completely fulfilled. But I respect your opinion.


Ready1 wrote:When we were back talking about Is 61:1-2 and Luke 4:16-21, Mr Baldy made these two statements. At the time I did not address them, but they are erroneous enough to re-examine. Mr. Baldy can only make Statement 1 because he believes Statement 2.


It is very obvious that you completely misinterpreted what I wrote. You have either "read into" it - or have just not clearly understood what I wrote entirely.

Again, please don't tell me what "I believe" - if you don't understand what I am trying to convey, how about asking me for clarification?

What I did mean when I wrote the aforementioned statement is that there is "no evidence" to support the reason why Jesus closed the Book - just as I suggested the first time. As a matter of FACT, I happen to agree that He did indeed stop reading it at this point because it had not been fulfilled. But just because I "think"; "feel"; or "believe" this way - doesn't mean that there is sufficient evidence to support this theory.

What I completely disagree with you on is that there is this magical "GAP" in time that goes on for an unknown, very nonsensical period of time - that will somehow work itself back into "Time" as we know it and pick up where it left off. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Again, you have agreed that Christ died in the 70th Week. So it had a "starting point." Time didn't stop. And you, and no one else has been able to prove that Time Stopped. The Prophecy Jesus didn't read in Isaiah 61:2 - is a separate prophecy, and will be fulfilled in it's appointed time.

I hope now I have made this very clear to you.

Ready1 wrote:To attack the credibility of the reporter, seems to say that he really didn’t get it all right. While I don’t know that Mr Baldy is saying this, it seems to be the only place left to argue his position from his words. If we make this conclusion, then we say that the Bible is not inerrant and we destroy the God breathed words of His Holy Book.


You can't destroy a man's credibility by pure conjecture. Nor do you excuse yourself by implying that "while you don't know that I am saying this". For the record - You will NEVER ever see me attack a writer of Scripture. What I do attack, and will continue to attack is False Doctrine. Please keep that in mind as you present things that cannot be supported with Scripture.


Ready1 wrote:The truth is that a portion of Isaiah 61:1-2 was fulfilled on that day in Nazareth and a portion of it will have its fulfilment yet in the future.


This I will agree with you on. What I do not agree with is how you, and a few others want to say that it relates to the 70th week - and you have not proven it with Scripture. Just pure conjecture, and ideologies that make absolutely no sense.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:35 am

BTW........

Shorty, if you are reading this, I just want you to know that I have felt led in my heart to personally Thank You!


I know that we have had our differences in the way that we have seen things Scripturally, but you were steadfast in your mentioning that the "he" in Daniel 9:27 was Christ. You cannot imagine how much this has opened my eyes to prophecy. Because of your steadfastness, in insisting that what you had discovered was correct, that I feel that it has opened up my understanding to the 70th week overall.

I think that those who believe that the 70th week has not been completed would have to consider that the entire book of Daniel was primarily written ALL about the 70th week, and nothing more. Of course we know that this is not true, as there are various prophecies mentioned throughout the entire Book.

In closing, again Shorty, I thank you. As always I'm certainly not dogmatic about my views but your information has been like an epiphany to me. I feel like I did when I discovered that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory was wrong. And the emotion I felt when I discovered that the False Prophet and the Antichrist are one and the same. I will however, continue to study.

Debates are very often heated and full of passion. I personally wouldn't have it any other way. Because if someone is always agreeing to what one mentions or what one writes - then the Truth is bound to be lost. Give me someone who is passionate and spirited about what they believe in as it relates to Scripture - and you'll see evidence of a True Believer.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:54 pm

Thank you Mr. B.,
Please keep in mind though, my insistence that the 70th week still remains incomplete still stands.

I was thinking of creating a thread to discuss the division of that week, and show the evidences I have found in that respect.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:35 pm

shorttribber wrote:Please keep in mind though, my insistence that the 70th week still remains incomplete still stands.I was thinking of creating a thread to discuss the division of that week, and show the evidences I have found in that respect.


That's fine. I just hope that you will be able to present evidence that can be supported with Scripture and not conjecture, as I have seen in many of the things that have been posted so far. :grin:
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:44 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:
shorttribber wrote:Please keep in mind though, my insistence that the 70th week still remains incomplete still stands.I was thinking of creating a thread to discuss the division of that week, and show the evidences I have found in that respect.


That's fine. I just hope that you will be able to present evidence that can be supported with Scripture and not conjecture, as I have seen in many of the things that have been posted so far. :grin:


Almost all things we can Absolutely Prove in prophecy is a compilation of many texts Mr. B.

There is a degree of conjecture that we all must admit to in any of our various opinions, including what you may have already determined as absolute.

I will of course Support what I say with scripture.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:54 pm

1WhoWaits Wrote
Keith, the goals of Dan 9 are directed at Israel alone, they are not directed at the gentiles, they were to be completed by Israel.

God made this plan in the past specifically for Israel and He made the plan on how it was to be fulfilled by Israel. Following your logic, Israel fulfilled the specific goals set by God in Dan 9 for Israel, by rejecting and executing God's Son, the designated Messiah for Israel. This would then mean that it was God's plan for Israel to sin and crucify the Messiah as fulfillment of His plan.

Correct. And so it was that Pilot washed his hands; The Jews accepted full responsibility.

Matthew 27:24-26
24When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this Man’s blood; see to that yourselves.” 25And all the people said, “His blood shall be on us and on our children!” 26Then he released Barabbas for them; but after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.


This would then make God the author of Israel's sin, which He is not.

Romans 9:14-18
14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


Israel was to finish transgression and put an end to sin in Dan 9, by your logic Israel committed sin to end sin. Has Israel's transgression and sin been ended or completed? Is Israel no longer guilty of sin? As Israel still exists, does Israel no longer sin as her sin has been completed?


Genesis 15:12-16
12Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, terror and great darkness fell upon him. 13God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years. 14“But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions. 15“As for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16“Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”

When the sin of the Amorites was “Complete” they were overthrown.
When the Jews crucified Christ, there sin was complete, and were overthrown, no longer tenants in the vineyard.
Complete has to do with fullness, as in, ensuring there is sufficient weight on one side of the scale to offset the other.
It does not mean either peoples stopped sinning.

By executing the designated Messiah and King for Israel, did Israel anoint the Most Holy? By committing sin did Israel atone for wickedness, seal up vision and prophecy, and bring in everlasting righteousness?
Logically, the only way Israel can complete the goals set for her by God in Dan 9 is for Israel to repent of her sin, accept Jesus as Messiah, and anoint Him as King, which she will do when Jesus returns at armageddon, much of which is described in Zech 12-14.

1 John 2:1-2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Hebrews 10:11-14
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for [f]sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are [g]sanctified.


One of the goals of Daniel 9:24 is “to make an atonement for iniquity”. In order to accomplish this goal, the Jews had to make a sacrifice. Yet, the sacrifices of the priests do not take away sins. Only Christ's death makes atonement for the sins of mankind. The phrase in Daniel 9:24 "to make atonement for iniquity" means the Daniel's people and their city will "make atonement for iniquity." And they did. They sacrificed a Jew who was without sin, Jesus.

Had the Jews repented and accepted Jesus as their Messiah, as you say they should have, they would have prevented "make atonement for iniquity", from occurring. As Christ is also our everlasting righteousness because of His Crucifixion,

"Logically", the only way for them to accomplish the goals of Daniel 9:24 was to crucify Christ.

Keith
Last edited by keithareilly on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:21 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:It is very obvious that you completely misinterpreted what I wrote. You have either "read into" it - or have just not clearly understood what I wrote entirely.

Again, please don't tell me what "I believe" - if you don't understand what I am trying to convey, how about asking me for clarification?

I thought, Mr Baldy, that you expressed yourself very clearly. The only reason that I stated that you believed the statement that you wrote, was because you wrote it. I was not intending to put “words in your mouth”. That would be dishonest. But it would also be presumptuous to not believe what you wrote. If I have expressed something other than what you believe, then please forgive me and set it right.


What I did mean when I wrote the aforementioned statement is that there is "no evidence" to support the reason why Jesus closed the Book - just as I suggested the first time. As a matter of FACT, I happen to agree that He did indeed stop reading it at this point because it had not been fulfilled. But just because I "think"; "feel"; or "believe" this way - doesn't mean that there is sufficient evidence to support this theory.

As I have stated, I believe that the evidence is based upon who Jesus is and what He stands for. He stands for truth and honesty by his very nature. This is not circumstantial evidence, it is not unsupported evidence; but rather it is God breathed evidence because of who Jesus is and what He stands for. Yes, Mr. Baldy, the evidence is right before you.


What I completely disagree with you on is that there is this magical "GAP" in time that goes on for an unknown, very nonsensical period of time - that will somehow work itself back into "Time" as we know it and pick up where it left off. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There is no magic, Mr Baldy. Furthermore your argument is not with me. Your argument is with God, for you see, God has clearly outlined when “the day of vengeance of our God” is, in a multiplicity of scriptures in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The “day of vengeance of our God” will occur when God pours out His wrath upon the earth. That has not happened yet. The only reason that anyone even uses the word “gap” is because there have been some 2000+ years since Jesus said that the first part of the scripture was fulfilled and today. And NO, Mr Baldy, while we know the time frame in which this will occur, we do not know the exact time. Is this a nonsensical period of time? No, it is not. It is a clearly defined period of time and the ultimate scriptural fulfilment of Isaiah 61 will be when Gods wrath is poured out. It makes absolute sense.


Again, you have agreed that Christ died in the 70th Week. So it had a "starting point." Time didn't stop. And you, and no one else has been able to prove that Time Stopped. The Prophecy Jesus didn't read in Isaiah 61:2 - is a separate prophecy, and will be fulfilled in it's appointed time.

I hope now I have made this very clear to you.

Nobody said that time has stopped and I specifically did say that Jesus Christ did NOT die in the 70th week. (I did correctly predict that you would say that I said that He did.) Furthermore, once again Mr Baldy, your argument is with God Himself and the Lord Jesus to say that Isaiah 61:2 is a separate prophecy. Isaiah said

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;


Jesus, in Luke 4, tied Isaiah 61 verses 1 and 2 together when he agreed that "To preach the acceptable year of the Lord" is definitely a part of the prophecy.

Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.


Isaiah did not link separate prophecies together but he prophesied about a time in his future that he did not see. Only by the revelation of Jesus Christ is it possible for us to know that this passage would not be fulfilled in its entirety until the future. You are correct, Mr Baldy, that this phrase and this phase of this prophecy will be fulfilled in its appointed time. But to argue that they are separate prophecies, is simply foolishness.


You can't destroy a man's credibility by pure conjecture. Nor do you excuse yourself by implying that "while you don't know that I am saying this". For the record - You will NEVER ever see me attack a writer of Scripture. What I do attack, and will continue to attack is False Doctrine. Please keep that in mind as you present things that cannot be supported with Scripture.

What you perceive of and continue to call “false doctrine” is someone else's understanding of future events. Because they do not agree with you, and none of us completely understand future events in their entirety, yet you say that it is false doctrine. There is not one of us who will be 100% correct in our understanding of future events. And many of us may be 100% wrong. So let us be careful with labels and inflammatory words.


This I will agree with you on. What I do not agree with is how you, and a few others want to say that it relates to the 70th week - and you have not proven it with Scripture. Just pure conjecture, and ideologies that make absolutely no sense.

To the best of my knowledge and intent, I have attempted to prove it, but you will not accept it. The fact that you continue to use words like conjecture and ideologies seems to take away from your arguments rather than adding to them.
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:37 pm

Keith, so you believe the Jews intended to offer Jesus as the sacrifice for atonement so as to do away with sin? Did God view their sacrifice as atonement for their sins if they did not accept Christ as that atonement?

Part of the problem with understanding the goals of the 70 weeks is that the goals are fulfilled by Jesus Christ on behalf of Israel, not solely by Israel herself. But Israel must accept God's plan, the need for repentance and accepting the atonement of Christ must be performed by Israel as a nation.

The problem with interpreting the goals in Dan 9 is that the goals for Israel are intertwined with God's overall plan of redemption for man. For Christians the atonement has already been made by Jesus, accepting Christ covers our sin, puts an end to our sin, and we have accepted Him as everlasting righteousness and our King.

But there are 2 parts to God's plan of redemption, the first part, the sacrifice of Jesus, has been completed, for both Israel and the Gentiles. The second part, the acceptance of Christ by men, has been completed by some, for others the completion is still in the future. For us as Christians God's plan of redemption is essentially completed, His Son has been offered and we have accepted His atonement.

For the nation of Israel, God's plan of redemption has not been completed, the sacrifice and atonement has been made, but the sacrifice has not been accepted by the nation. Will there be a future time when the nation of Israel will accept God's plan of redemption and accept Christ as atonement? 'Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written; The deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sin.' Rom 11.

Israel as a nation has not accepted God's redemption and atonement, therefore for Israel there cannot be an end to transgression and sin, they cannot bring in everlasting righteousness, nor can they anoint the Most Holy. But there will be a future acceptance of Christ by the nation of Israel, 'all Israel' will be saved and their sin will be forgiven, as Romans 11 and Zech 12 describe.

The goals set forth in Dan 9 have not been completed by the nation of Israel, Israel has not accepted the atonement provided, but they will accept it in the future, which indicates that there will be a future completion of the 70th week for Israel.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:29 pm

1 Whowaits,

No, I do not think the Jews understood what they were doing when they crucified Christ.

Yes, they will accept in the future; until the fullness of gentiles has come in, the Jewish nation remains blinded.

We disagree about what Daniel 9:24-27 says concerning Daniel's people and their city.
It says they are to accomplish; it does not say they are to accept.
I agree they will accept in the future.
Nevertheless, the prophecy in Daniel 9:24 is talking about what Daniel's people and their city accomplish, not accept.
It is the accomplishing that fulfills the prophecy, not the accepting of what was accomplished.
Though the accepting is prophesied elsewhere; it is not mentioned in Daniel 9:24-27.
In Daniel 9:24-27 there is the accomplishing of goals, the cut-off (rejection through crucifixion) of Christ, and the consequences (desolations) of that sin and rejection.

If Daniel's people and their city had not accomplished the goals of Daniel 9:24, then everlasting righteousness, atonement for sin, etc. would not be available to we believers. The goals were accomplished as prophesied, even if they were not accepted by the Jewish nation.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:17 pm

Keith, ok, that clarifies your view, thanks. Your view appears to be that Israel accomplished the goals of Dan 9 without accepting Christ as Savior and King. My view would be that the nation of Israel would have to accept Christ in order for the goals laid out in Dan 9 to be accomplished, making the completion of the 70th week a future event.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:22 pm

1Whowaits,

A pleasure. Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Salvation is of the Jews.
They had to reject Christ to "accomplish" the goals.
Rejection first to accomplish the goals; acceptance later; all part of the plan.
Daniel 9:24-27 is about the first part of the plan, rejection; other verse are about the future acceptance.
Salvation is of the Jews.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:38 am

Ready1 wrote:If I have expressed something other than what you believe, then please forgive me and set it right.


Most of what you have written thus far concerning what I have written has been expressed incorrectly. So, I'm done.

Ready1 wrote:I specifically did say that Jesus Christ did NOT die in the 70th week.


And here (the aforementioned) in lies your problem. If you, and anyone else cannot understand that Christ did indeed die in the 70th week - then I have no further comments on this Thread.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:25 am

Hi Shorty,

Just wanted to respond to this:

shorttribber wrote:There is a degree of conjecture that we all must admit to in any of our various opinions, including what you may have already determined as absolute.


For the record, I have not determined anything as absolute - just wanted to clear that up.

Shorty, as I have mentioned before, you helped me to understand that the 'he' in Daniel 9:27(a) is Christ. It also opened up my understanding that the prophecy set forth is two fold. The "one" who will come to make desolate is set for the Final 3.5 years (Daniel 9:27 (b)). In my very humble opinion it has nothing to do with the 70th week - but a separate and distinct prophecy.

I don't believe that you and I are too far off in understanding this prophecy. The only difference we have is that you believe that a portion of the 70th week is yet future - the 3.5 years. I also believe that it is future, but has nothing to do with the fulfillment of the 70th week, as I believe the requirements have been met.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:33 am

keithareilly wrote:Christ is also our everlasting righteousness because of His Crucifixion


Hi Keith,

If I may...........the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 doesn't end with His Crucifixion. It also must include his ultimate Resurrection as well. Daniel 24: points to His Birth, Death, and Resurrection. All the requirements are fulfilled as it is about Christ.


1 Corinthians 15:13-17 - New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13) But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14) and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15) Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16) For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17) and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:17 am

Mr Baldy wrote

If I may...........the requirements set forth in Daniel 9:24 doesn't end with His Crucifixion. It also must include his ultimate Resurrection as well. Daniel 24: points to His Birth, Death, and Resurrection. All the requirements are fulfilled as it is about Christ.


Tis true.

1Whowaits perspective about acceptance being part of the goals is interesting. Are the goals accomplished in full for those who believe including the Jews who believed then and those who believe today? Are the goals completed in their entirety for them? Does being part of the Kingdom of God mean they do not need to be part of Israel to experience the fullness of those goals? The nation Israel is not (currently) part of the Kingdom of God. Is the Kingdom of God a greater Kingdom than Israel? If so should not the goals be more applicable to the Kingdom of God over Israel, the kingdom of those tenants who were removed from the vineyard?

I think the difficulty still comes down to which week is the 70th, the one Christ was crucified during or the one week where that sacrifices are stopped half way through. Interestingly, it all comes down to the difference between "explicit" one week of Dan 9:27 and the "implicit" one week of Dan 9:26 in which Christ was crucified. People choose between them not based upon logic but upon the explicitness of one statement over the implicitness of the other. I suspect this has to do with not seeing the implicit one week of the crucifixion because of the explicitly mentioned one week in Daniel 9:27. Interestingly, scriptures numbers the first 69 weeks as 7 and 62, but the one week in Daniel 9:27 is not numbered as the 70th or as any other week. People just add 7, 62 get 69 then assume the one week of Daniel 9:27 is the missing week. Once they make that assumption they don't look for any other weeks and miss the implicitly mentioned one week in which Christ was crucified.

With regard to your conversation about the gap. There can be gaps between phrases of prophecy. For example, there was about 40 years between the crucifixion and the 70AD event of the 1st Roman Jewish War, that is, between the latter part of verse 9:26 and verse 9:27. But, introducing a gap into a prophecy that is given a time limit, such as the 70 sevens Daniel 9:24, is saying the time period of the prophecy is not really the time period of the prophecy, that is, the seventy sevens are not really seventy sevens but some other length of time. So yes, there are gaps between prophetic phrases; but not when a specific time period is prophesied.

Keith
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Ready1 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:05 am

keithareilly wrote:I think the difficulty still comes down to which week is the 70th, the one Christ was crucified during or the one week where that sacrifices are stopped half way through. Interestingly, it all comes down to the difference between "explicit" one week of Dan 9:27 and the "implicit" one week of Dan 9:26 in which Christ was crucified. People choose between them not based upon logic but upon the explicitness of one statement over the implicitness of the other. I suspect this has to do with not seeing the implicit one week of the crucifixion because of the explicitly mentioned one week in Daniel 9:27. Interestingly, scriptures numbers the first 69 weeks as 7 and 62, but the one week in Daniel 9:27 is not numbered as the 70th or as any other week. People just add 7, 62 get 69 then assume the one week of Daniel 9:27 is the missing week. Once they make that assumption they don't look for any other weeks and miss the implicitly mentioned one week in which Christ was crucified. 


Keith: This is probably as good of an explanation on why people see this passage in different ways as I have seen. As such, I appreciate your thoughts and explanation. But obviously I am one who sees all seventy weeks in Dan 9:24-27. The reason that I do is because of the vision which was given to Daniel through the angel Gabriel. Often times we get so caught up in the prophetic verbiage at hand that we forget context.

To get the context, in this case, we have to go to verse 2 of Dan 9 where we find that Daniel was thinking about the years of “desolation” which Jeremiah said were allotted to Israel.
“I, Daniel, understood the number of the years by books, which came of the Word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.”
Daniel is praying to the Lord asking for clarity and understanding regarding the required time that the children of Israel will be in Babylon.

Furthermore, he is confessing the sins of the leaders of Israel and the people of Israel. But he pleads with God for forgiveness, for God’s sake and for His City’s sake and the people called by His name’s sake.

So the original question about the seventy years that Jeremiah spoke about, came from Daniel, by prayer and fasting, and sackcloth and ashes. And Daniel got his answer! God sent Gabriel to explain. But what he explained was more than what Daniel originally asked about. Again, the original question in this chapter is about seventy years. And the answer as provided by Gabriel, dealt with seventy-sevens, or seventy weeks of years.

Following is Daniel’s explanation of how and when Gabriel’s came to him, and why he came. I have showed it without verse markers.

From Gabriel:

And while I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin, and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my cry before Jehovah my God for the holy mountain of my God; yes, while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, touched me in my severe exhaustion, about the time of the evening sacrifice. And he enlightened me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I have now come out to give you skill and understanding. At the beginning of your prayers the commandment came out, and I have come to explain. For you are greatly beloved; therefore understand the matter, and attend to the vision:


Then Gabriel explains the vision.

Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction. And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself. And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.  And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.


Within this context, I cannot take the week which is mentioned after the seven weeks and the sixty-two weeks away from this vision. To do so would, to me, violate the spirit of the explanation by Gabriel from God. Every word of this passage is a part of the vision, and cannot be broken apart by designators like explicit and implicit. So it is a requirement, for me, to read that the week mentioned here is a part of what Gabriel is sharing, and thus a part of the seventy weeks that he is telling Daniel about.

Once again, either it is a single vision as explained by Gabriel or it is not. Since I see that it is, from this point forward, every time that the desolator is mentioned in scripture, it ties back to this passage and this timeframe. So, passages like Dan 11:31, 12:11 and the verses surrounding them simply add explanation to the final or 70th week as defined in this passage. And Jesus himself adds to our understanding of this final week by his comments as recorded in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14.

I realize that many do not see things as I do, but this is how I see it. :grin:
Just observing.

E.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 24, 2017 12:19 pm

Ready1,

I don't see any reason to take the one week of Daniel 9:27 from the vision. I include it.
I also include the war mentioned and the desolations as well.
I just don't try to put it all in the 70 weeks.
The 70 weeks of prophesy were for the goals to be accomplished.
War and desolations are not necessary to accomplish the goals, Christ's crucifixion was necessary.
It is why I choose the crucifixion week as the 70th week.

One might argue that the prophecy was for 70 sevens, not longer.
This argument falls down when the gap is introduced; for the gap makes the prophecy longer.
In essence, we all agree Daniel 9:24-27 is talking about a period of time longer than 70 sevens
And we all agree there are events in Daniel 9:24-27 that fall outside the 70 weeks.
Most gap believers believe Christ crucifixion falls out side the 70 weeks; that is, after the 69, but not during the 70th.
So, even most gap believers don't actually place all events prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 into the 70 weeks (which is ironic as the gap theory is an attempt to place all events prophesied in Dan 9:24-27 inside the 70 weeks).

We all agree the events prophesied take longer than the 70 sevens.
The question becomes, which sevens, of that longer time period, make up the 70 weeks, particularly the 70th week and which events of the prophecies are apart of the 70 weeks and which events of the prophecies are outside the 70 weeks?

I choose the week Christ was crucified as the last of the 70 weeks because that event is necessary to accomplish the goals and it follows the 69th week. Whereas the events of war and desolations are not necessary to accomplish the goals and we know from history those events did not occur during the week following the 69th week.
So, I think the week Christ was crucified is a better choice for the 70th week.
This leaves the events of war and desolations outside the 70 weeks but still apart of the overall prophecy.
Furthermore, this view fits the historical record. So, I think it is pretty strong argument over the gap view.

Thus You are correct Daniel got more of an answer than he asked.


Keith
Edited for clarity
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Mr Baldy wrote:Hi Shorty,Just wanted to respond to this:
shorttribber wrote:There is a degree of conjecture that we all must admit to in any of our various opinions, including what you may have already determined as absolute.

Mr B. said: For the record, I have not determined anything as absolute - just wanted to clear that up.


Then will you admit that the 70th week May Not Absolutely be finished?
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:32 pm

keithareilly wrote:I choose the week Christ was crucified as the last of the 70 weeks because that event is necessary to accomplish the goals and it follows the 69th week. Whereas the events of war and desolations are not necessary to accomplish the goals and we know from history those events did not occur during the week following the 69th week.


Keith, do you think that the Desolations of Jerusalem (Including 70 ad) was a Confirmation of the Mosaic Covenant against Unrepentant and Unbelieving Israel?

If so, it is also understood that the Mosaic Covenant was Added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of Unbelief correct?

I think you know where I'm going with these questions.

Even if you know where I'm leading you in these questions, you should be able to answer them with a simple yes or no without fear of where the questions lead.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby shorttribber on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:05 pm

keithareilly wrote:
ST wrote: Keith,
Because at some point in history there has been the Highest Point or Pinnacle of Transgression against God does not Also Mean that there has been a Finishing of it.

keith wrote: If I plant a peach tree in fertile soil, I have finished what I can do. Just because I have finished what I can do does not mean there are peaches on the tree. The pinnacle is the planting; we can expect fruit of the pinnacle to come forth. When desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, when sin is "finished" it brings forth death. Keith


That's not a real accurate kind of parable or example that you've provided keith. The reason it is not a good answer to the non parable that I have mentioned regarding Transgression is as follows.

Transgression was not First Planted by those who rejected Christ, and by their iniquity, crucified Christ. The finishing was not the planting keith. They had a planting of transgression long before Christ came...that is evidenced very clearly throughout the Entire Chapter of Daniel 9.
The Fruit of such Transgression WAS the Crucifixion of Christ....but That Fruit HAD SEEDS in itself, and Still grows and grows. It will continue to grow and yield much corrupt fruit Until the Consummation, and That determined will be poured upon the Desolate.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby keithareilly on Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:41 pm

Shorttrib wrote
Keith, do you think that the Desolations of Jerusalem (Including 70 ad) was a Confirmation of the Mosaic Covenant against Unrepentant and Unbelieving Israel?


Yes. And Just as God waited for the Amorites to complete their sin so did He wait for the Jews to complete their sin, which they did when they crucified Christ, before the desolations occurred.

As I said earlier, to finish transgression does not mean to repent of transgression, it means to continue transgression until it is completed as the Amorites continued their sin until it was completed thus justifying their overthrow. I find your pinnacle terminology describes this in a different manner. As the pinnacle terminology does not describe repenting either.

If so, it is also understood that the Mosaic Covenant was Added to the Abrahamic Covenant because of Unbelief correct?
Not sure I understand that question. Mosaic covenant is about what you do or not do and the consequences thereof. Why we do what we do, is about our faith. If you are asking was their disobedience and destruction prophesied by Moses, Yes it was.
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:18 am

keith

If you go looking for mentions of the Amorite people in the bible, you will find that were not wiped out when Israel entered the land. Also, the Genesis 15:16 prophetic verse is applicable to today as the Amorite people still exist and they have adopted the Islamic religion. It is the Amorite people/nation that surround present day Israel.

Shalom
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Re: The beinning of the 70th week

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:13 am

shorttribber wrote:Then will you admit that the 70th week May Not Absolutely be finished?


No, I will not admit that - as it makes no sense to me. But nor will I be dogmatic about my views either.

Scripture plainly states that 70 weeks were decreed. Not 70 weeks "split"; Not 70 years Plus (+); or "divided"; or have some unknown mysterious "GAP" in time. And there are no indicators that we should be placing a "GAP" in time to complete these weeks as well. Again, it makes no sense - as there is no plausible reason for it.

In most instances, we must take Scripture for exactly what it says.

The prophecies set forth in Daniel are distinct, and I believe can be identified with careful examination.

Three questions for you:

1) Have you ever questioned why as the End of Time is mentioned in Scripture, it never mentions a 7 year period of time?

2) Have you ever considered why 3.5 years are consistently mentioned over, and over again as it relates to the Last Days?

3) Have you ever thought that perhaps the 3.5 years that are consistently mentioned, as it relates to the Last Days just may not have anything to do with the 70 weeks that were decreed?
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