The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Events indicative of the end-times which may, or may not, be related to a specific Scripture.

The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby amessenger4god on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:55 am

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By now you've probably heard about what a number of Christians are calling the Revelation 12 Sign that will supposedly occur on Saturday, September 23rd, 2017.  There is a lot of rampant speculation on the internet both for and against the legitimacy of this sign and much information to weed through.  What's true?  What's false?  Is this all hype?  The goal of this article is to provide readers with a comprehensive and straightforward analysis of the purported sign, addressing many questions and concerns.  The three sections below cover the sign itself, it's possible significance, and claims and critiques about the sign.  I suspect this article will be updated as new information is uncovered, so please feel free to add items of interest in the Comments below.



A Great Sign

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.  She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.  Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.  Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.  She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

- Revelation 12:1-5


The astronomical alignment that so many are now pointing to comes from a literal reading of Revelation 12:1-5, which describes a sign in the sky involving a woman who is crowned with twelve stars, clothed with the sun, having the moon under her feet, and giving birth to a male child.  The text itself does not describe the sign as a parable or illustration, which validates the view that this passage is in fact describing a real astronomical event visible to the inhabitants of the earth - complete with real sun, moon, and stars.  Each of the elements described in the sign have significant prophetic and allegorical meaning as will be shown, but the passage itself describes first and foremost a real sign and so any accurate interpretation must begin with that premise.  Lacking any evidence that the Apostle John was not describing a sign visible in the sky as the text plainly says, the burden of proof is entirely upon those who would argue that this passage is only pure allegory.

There has been much confusion over both the Hebrew and Greek words for heaven.  In the Greek, the word in Revelation 12:1 is ourano with a definite article, which can be translated as "in heaven" or "in the sky."  The distinction is a big deal, because many who deny a literal one thousand-year kingdom of Christ and the earthly fulfillment of Old Testament covenant promises, will opt for "heaven" being the translation every time.  The same goes for Revelation 21:1.  John sees what is often translated "a new heaven" and "a new earth."  However, it may be better to translate this as "a new sky," rather than confusing modern readers by using a word in modern English most often associated with God's dwelling.

It is also important to note that these first five verses in Revelation 12 purposefully distinguish between two different signs.  The first sign, which the text calls "a great sign", involves only a woman in labor, and so includes Revelation 12:1-2 and Revelation 12:5.  The second sign, called "another sign", is described in Revelation 12:3-4.  The signs are connected in the narrative, but their distinction tells us that they are not the same and this is the likely reason that only the first sign has been apparently identified in the Fall of 2017.  A number of different explanations for the second sign have been offered, such as an as of yet unseen stellar or planetary body, but that is not the topic of this study.  Our focus is entirely on the "great sign".

There is some question as to who first made the discovery in its most primordial form, but sometime in 2012 it was observed using astronomy software that a specific alignment of constellations, planets, the sun, and moon would appear to fulfill a literal reading of Revelation 12:1-2 and Revelation 12:5.  Here are each of the elements involved in the alignment:


The Constellation Virgo

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Virgo, Latin for "virgin" or "maiden", is the second largest constellation in the sky and one of the twelve constellations of the Zodiac and Jewish Mazzaroth (the constellations that the sun appears to move through during the course of the year).  In most depictions it features twelve principal stars as can be seen in the picture above.  Spica, along with three other stars, form a womb-of-sorts at the center of the constellation.  Virgo is universally depicted as a woman, even in the ancient Grecian, Roman, and Assyrian-Babylonian cultures and for this reason it is argued that this is the "woman" John saw in the sky.  It is the only constellation in the Zodiac and Mazzaroth that represents a woman, and out of the 88 constellations in the entire celestial sphere, it is one of only three constellations that represent women (the other two being Andromeda and Cassiopeia).


The Sun

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Our solar system's star is mentioned by name in Revelation 12:1 as part of the sign.  It is said to "clothe" the woman.  From the perspective of a viewer on earth, the sun is always much smaller than Virgo and therefore it cannot be the disc of the sun itself that clothes her in any arrangement, but on September 23rd it will rest upon her shoulder and the sign will be entirely "clothed" in sunlight during the day on September 22nd and 23rd, hiding Virgo from view.


The Moon

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The lunar body is also mentioned by name in Revelation 12:1, described as residing under the woman's feet.  On September 23rd, from the perspective of a viewer in the Middle East, Virgo will appear prone and the moon will appear directly under the feet of the constellation.


A Crown Of Twelve Stars

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It is not uncommon for Virgo to be "clothed" in the sun and to have the moon under or near her feet - in fact it happens every year for a number of days in the Fall.  It is the crown of twelve stars that John saw that really begins to set this sign apart.  This is far, far more rare.  The Hebrew and Greek words for "star" do not distinguish between stars as we know them today and planets.  From the perspective of an earth-based observer, stars and planets look the same except that planets appear to move through the field of fixed stars.  For this reason, planets were sometimes described in the ancient languages as "wandering", but they were still called stars.  Situated directly above the head of the constellation Virgo is the constellation Leo ("The Lion"), composed of nine principal stars as shown above.  On September 22nd and 23rd the visible planets Mercury, Mars, and Venus will join Leo's nine stars to form a "crown" of twelve stars on the head of Virgo.



The Planet Jupiter

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Jupiter, the largest planet in our solar system, is said to represent the male child that the woman is giving birth to.  There seem to be some very good reasons for making this connection.

First of all, almost all commentaries on Revelation 12 throughout Church history have identified the male child in the passage with Jesus Christ (though not only Jesus Christ as will be discussed later).  It seems obvious enough: on one level the woman represents Mary, the baby is Jesus, and the dragon in the second sign represents satan.  The child is "caught up" to God's throne in the passage and Jesus ascended into Heaven.  Jesus will also rule all the nations when He returns as the passage describes the child as doing.  A number of theories about the Star of Bethlehem have posited that Jupiter was that very star - Christ's star.  Like Christ, Jupiter is covered in stripes (Isaiah 53:5) and has a very prominent hole called the Great Red Spot, similar to Christ's spear wound (John 19:34).  Also like Christ, Jupiter "takes the blow" for us (Isaiah 53:4-6), absorbing most of the lethal comets and asteroids from the outer solar system that would otherwise strike earth.

Second, the planet is named after the king of the gods in the ancient Roman and Greek pantheons (Jupiter and Zeus, respectively).  In ancient Babylonian and Germanic pantheons the planet represented the son of their respective chief deities: Marduk son of Ea, and Thor son of Odin.  In other words, in the ancient world Jupiter was always associated with either the greatest male deity or that deity's son.  Jupiter is therefore frequently called the "king planet".

Third, on November 20th, 2016, the planet Jupiter entered the womb of the constellation Virgo where it will remain for exactly 42 weeks, the precise length of a long human gestation.  The 42 week gestation is interesting in light of the 42 generations from Abraham to Christ (Matthew 1:17) and the 42 months that transpire in each of the first and second halves of the Tribulation (Revelation 11:2, Revelation 13:5, Daniel 7:25, among others).  A crown of twelve stars above Virgo's head is rare, but this is rarer still.  In order for Jupiter to remain in the womb for such a lengthy and precise amount of time, it undergoes an extremely rare retrograde motion in the constellation.  The planet actually appears to make a giant circle within the womb during this time before exiting on September 9th, 2017.  The sign in Revelation 12 completes in verse 5 after the child is born and likewise two weeks after Jupiter exits the womb, it moves down the celestial birthing canal and the complete sign is formed in the sky.  It could be said that the woman is in labor for two weeks as the baby moves out of the womb and through the canal.



The Complete Picture

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The picture above shows the complete sign as it will appear from Israel on September 23rd, 2017.  It also shows the different positions of Jupiter within the womb of Virgo as it circles around during the 42 week gestation.  Scottie Clark, the first to put all these pieces together, talks about the precision of the sign here:



The Significance

My personal study of Revelation 12 (much credit given to Jeff E., Scottie Clark, and Daniel Matson, among many others) has led me to believe that the entire chapter, which occurs right in the middle of the book, is an interlude and broad overview of the entire Tribulation, describing all of the key events except for the Second Coming of Christ.  Revelation 12 appears to describe the Tribulation in chronological order, except for verse 6:

Revelation 12:1-5: The rapture of the Church.

Revelation 12:7-12: The future war in Heaven that occurs simultaneously with the rapture or very shortly after.  The accuser and his accusing angels are cast out of Heaven as the Church gains entrance into Heaven.  You might call this the Cosmic Shift: the Church goes up and the devil comes down.  Satan and his angels are then confined to earth.

Revelation 12:13: The persecution of the Jewish remnant on earth during the first half of the Tribulation.

Revelation 12:14-16, 6: The Jewish remnant's protection and provision while the remaining three and one-half years of the Tribulation comes to a conclusion.

Revelation 12:17: Recognizing that the Jewish remnant is then untouchable, satan turns his attention towards the remaining Gentile Tribulation Saints.

In order to fully understand the chapter's narrative you have to understand that the three key players represent both individuals and corporate entities:



The Woman: Mary And Israel

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Throughout Church history it seemed self-evident to identify the woman in this passage with Mary, the mother of Jesus: she gave birth to the male child who will rule all the nations.  She was also persecuted by a dragon-of-sorts in the form of Herod and God protected her and her family in Egypt.  This is the individual that the woman represents.

Corporately, however, the woman represents Israel.  This is indicated not only by the very Jewishness of a crown of twelve stars (the twelve tribes of Israel per Genesis 37:9-10), but by the narrative overall.  The woman is the one protected in the wilderness on earth and a key distinction is made between her and her offspring (first the male child and second her other offspring in verse 17).  Some have argued that the woman represents the Church, but this position is untenable because the Church didn't give birth to Christ.  For these three reasons, virtually all dispensationalists and even many covenant theologians associate the woman with Israel.


The Dragon: Satan And The Kingdom Of Antichrist

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The dragon is an explicit representation of satan (Revelation 12:9), which leaves no guesswork on our part.

Corporately, it is straightforward to understand that the dragon represents the antichrist and his kingdom, because it is through the kingdom of antichrist that the dragon actually persecutes Israel and the future Tribulation Saints.  This corporate understanding is further proven by the dragon's seven heads and ten horns, which are connected to the antichrist's dominion (Revelation 17:9) and the world rulers who will give him his authority (Revelation 17:12, Daniel 7:20-22).


The Male Child: Christ And His Church

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Jesus Christ is clearly in view in the passage.  He was born from Mary, is coming to rule all the nations, and ascended to Heaven.

However, just as the woman and the dragon have corporate meanings, the child follows the same pattern.  In the passage itself there are five key pieces of evidence that tell us the Church is also in view, borrowing from Dallas Theological Seminary professor Michael Svigel:

1. Consistency in Symbolism. The woman represents a corporate entity (Israel, see Genesis 37:9–10); the Dragon represents a corporate entity (the world system controlled by Satan, see the total of seven heads and ten horns in the series of monsters in Daniel 7:1–7) and the male child as the body of Christ would also represent a corporate entity (Christ in union with His body, the Church, see 1 Corinthians 12:12, etc.).

2. Allusion to Isaiah 66:7-8. The use of the neuter adjective arsen (male) modifying the masculine noun huios (son) and the image of Israel giving birth points careful readers back to Isaiah 66:7–8, where we read in the Septuagint (Greek version of the Old Testament): “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy (arsen). Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her children.” The image is parallel in Revelation, and John explicitly breaks the rules of Greek grammar (modifying the masculine “son” with the neuter “male”) to point us back to this passage in Isaiah 66. The child in both cases is corporate, not individual.

3. Symbolic Background of Daniel 7. I think John uses the term huios (son) in Revelation 12:5 to connect us to the vision of the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7:13–14, which is interpreted corporately as the Messiah and His saints in 7:18; 26–27. John uses the term “son” in Revelation 12:5, literally “she gave birth to a son, a male,” not the term “child,” as most translations render it. Most people miss that the “Son of Man” in Daniel 7 is interpreted by the angel corporately, which fits well with Revelation 12:5’s “male son” interpreted corporately as the body of Christ. Also, the image of the seven heads and ten horns of the dragon symbol earlier in this vision already pointed us back to Daniel 7, which seems to stand behind this vision of Revelation 12.

4. The Male Child is “Snatched Up.” The word in Revelation 12:5 is the word for “rapture,” harpazo, and always means a sudden removal, a snatching. In contrast, for the ascension of Christ, the New Testament uses terms such as “to be lifted up,” epairo (Acts 1:9), “to ascend,” anabaino (John 20:17; Ephesians 4:8-10) and “to take up,” analambano (Mark 16:19; Luke 1:11). These are neutral terms meaning a removal from one place to another. Revelation 12:5 has the male child being suddenly snatched away from the dragon, who wants to devour the child. The ascension of Christ was gradual (Acts 1:10), not sudden. Also, Revelation 12:5 is a context of “rescue” from the threat of the dragon. The word “rapture,” harpazo, is appropriately used in the New Testament for a rescue in Acts 23:10 and Jude 23. In His ascension to heaven, Christ was not rescued, but ascended victoriously and was in no danger from the devil or anybody else. The term “rapture,” harpazo, is never used of Christ’s ascension to heaven. Thus, the use of harpazo in a rescue context like Revelation 12:5 is completely inappropriate to describe the ascension of Christ, but is completely appropriate to describe the rapture of the church as a rescue from Satan’s emerging efforts to destroy the church as we approach the end times.

5. Corporate application of Psalm 2:9 in Revelation 2:26-27; 12:5; and 19:14-15. In Psalm 2:9, God tells the Messiah, “You will break them [the nations] with a rod of iron, You will shatter them like earthenware.” In Revelation 2:26-27, Christ extends this promise to the Church, the body of Christ: “And he who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received [authority] from My Father.” In Revelation 19:14-15, Christ and the armies come to earth, fulfilling the promise: “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white [and] clean, were following Him on white horses. And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.” This same Psalm is quoted in Revelation 12:5 and applied to the male child. Thus, the male child as Christ in union with His body, the Church, is most consistent with the application of the promise of Psalm 2:9 extended both to Christ and the Church.

In summary, the significance of the Revelation 12 sign may be the rapture of the Church, the beginning of the cosmic war in Heaven, and God's redemptive focus returning to Israel and the Jews (Micah 5:3).  The Revelation 12 sign on September 23rd, 2017, also happens to fall on what will likely be the first or second day of Rosh Hashanah, determined by the sighting of the new moon.  This could be incredibly significant because for many years students of Bible prophecy have speculated that Rosh Hashanah (also called Yom Teruah or "The Feast of Trumpets") is the most likely time of year for the rapture.

There are seven biblical feasts (Leviticus 23:4-44) and Jesus fulfilled the first four in order:

The Feast of Passover - fulfilled by His death

The Feast of Unleavened Bread - fulfilled by His sinless life and burial

The Feast of First Fruits - fulfilled by His resurrection

The Feast of Pentecost - fulfilled by Jesus sending the Holy Spirit to indwell the Church

The very next feast in chronological order is The Feast of Trumpets, which happens to fall on September 22nd and 23rd in 2017 - when the possible sign occurs.

*An important side note: Pentecost has often been called "the birth of the Church" because on that day Jesus' first coming ministry was fully completed and Believers became indwelt with what would ultimately be their seal of eternal redemption (Ephesians 4:30).  In light of the birthing portrayed in the sky in September 2017, consider the account of the conception of Jesus in Matthew 1:18 and Luke 1:35.  It was the conception of Christ when the Holy Spirit came into Mary, not His birth.  Could it be that Pentecost was actually the conception of the Church and the Revelation 12 Sign portrays the birth of the Church?  Even from a soteriological perspective this makes a lot of sense when you compare the process of salvation to the development and birth of a baby: conception is like justification when a new spirit enters in and a new life is formed, gestation is like sanctification as we grow in our faith, and birth is like glorification when the baby is finally complete and fully formed.  Perhaps Jesus was being more literal than we thought when He said in John 3:7 "You must be born again."  Consider also the Apostle Paul's admonition in Galatians 4:19:

My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you...



Claims And Critiques

CLAIM: Looking for "signs" in the sky is astrology.

This is FALSE.  Astrology is an idolatrous and occultic practice that often involves the deification of stars, planets, and moons.  Astrologers often teach that these heavenly bodies control life on earth.  To the contrary, the search for biblical signs in the heavens recognizes that it is the Creator God who made all things and set everything into motion in a preordained pattern.  The heavenly bodies themselves have no power over our lives and we do not worship them.

The Bible says explicitly that there will be signs in the sky preceding the return of Christ (Matthew 24:30, Luke 21:11, Luke 21:25, Revelation 12:1-3).  The Bible also says that the sun, moon, and stars were created for three reasons: 1. To separate day from night, 2. To give light to the earth, and 3. To indicate days, years, seasons, and signs (Genesis 1:14-15).  Prophetic language frequently makes mention of lunar and solar eclipses (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Revelation 6:12) and God often focuses our attention on the stars (Genesis 15:5, Isaiah 40:26, Job 38:31, Amos 5:8, Psalm 19:1).

Interestingly, the magi from the east were able to find the baby Jesus by following prophetic descriptions found in Numbers 24:17 and Genesis 49:9-10.  They were able to identify the constellation Leo ("The Lion") with the tribe of Judah and followed the Star of Bethlehem as it moved west and came to rest over Bethlehem.


CLAIM: The Revelation 12 Sign is not unique, it has happened before.

This is also FALSE, with one caveat.  Some argue that this sign occurred in 3915 BC, 3 BC, and 70 AD.  It definitely did not occur in 3 BC or 70 AD, but it did occur on August 5th of 3915 BC, albeit with less precision.  So the caveat is the 3915 BC occurrence where Saturn was in the crown, but Mars was absent.  Jupiter also underwent an approximately nine month retrograde through the womb of Virgo during this time (October 28th, 3916 BC to August 5th, 3915 BC), but a large portion of Jupiter's retrograde took place outside of the womb.


August 27th, 70 AD:

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The woman has a crown of twelve stars, but Jupiter and Venus are so close together it makes them hard to distinguish.  The sun and moon are in place, but she has no "male child".  The womb is completely empty.  You could also argue that the moon is below her knees, not her feet.


September 11th, 3 BC:

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Many have argued that Rosh Hashanah of 3 BC (September 11th) also featured the sign as evidence Christ was born that day, but this only gets two things right: the sun clothes the woman and the moon is under her feet.  There is no crown of twelve stars, the moon is very far away, and she is not giving birth to a "male child".


August 5th, 3915 BC:

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Everything matches on this date.  In fact it is such a close match that it has been speculated that this could have been the date of the Fall of Mankind when God spoke these eerily relevant words to the devil and to Eve in Genesis 3:15-16:

And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”


Interestingly, in this dialogue the same three entities mentioned in Revelation 12 are also present: the serpent (Revelation 12:9), the woman, and the male child.  The planet Saturn, which some have speculated represents satan, happens to be near the heel of The Lion.


CLAIM: The sign is not visible in Israel.

This is FALSE.  I'm not sure who first made the argument that the constellations in question (Virgo and Leo) will not be in the sky above Israel in Fall 2017, but it simply isn't true.The entire sign will be in the western sky above Israel and Jerusalem on Saturday, September 23rd - and how fitting that the sign that may be heralding the end of the Church Age will be seen right where the sun sets and the day ends.One might argue that observers can't see the alignment because the sun is up, but that's exactly what John saw - the woman is clothed with the sun.And, as a matter of fact, after the sun sets, everything but the woman's crown will be visible in the night sky.

As mentioned, from Israel the sign will be visible in the west.  The possible occurrence in 3915 BC was visible in the east, where the sun rises.  Perhaps this indicates the sun rising and setting on the age of fallen humanity.


CLAIM: The moon is not under the woman's feet. 

This is FALSE.  When I initially studied the alignment I was misled by images showing the woman standing upright with the moon to the right of her feet.The text makes clear that the moon should be under her feet, not beside her feet.For this reason I viewed the heavenly sign with some skepticism.After all, God's Word is perfect and for His Word to be fulfilled it must be fulfilled perfectly.Every condition in the text has to be fulfilled, which is why 70 AD, 3 BC, and 3915 BC don't fit the bill.However, a woman in labor is not standing when she gives birth, she's lying prone, and that's exactly how the alignment is arranged in the sky - the woman is lying prone with her feet up and the moon is directly below her feet, almost as a pillow of sorts.


CLAIM: What John saw was symbolic.

This is TRUE.  I think we can all agree that the sign John saw had definite symbolic and prophetic meaning - that is not in dispute.However, the text itself makes abundantly clear that this is more than just a parable: "A great sign appeared in heaven..." (Revelation 12:1).

I'm not saying the rapture will occur in September 2017, but I am saying that the heavenly sign John saw in Revelation 12 appears to be happening before our very eyes with whatever implications that brings and I believe Jesus will be calling us home very, very soon.


CLAIM: The rapture will occur on September 23rd, 2017.

This is either TRUE or FALSE.  That might sound like a cop-out answer, but the truth of the matter is, it either will or it won't.  It isn't a possibility, it's either for-sure or for-sure-not.  Whatever God has planned will happen and I'm committed to not date setting.  As a fallen human being, I'm the one prone to intellectual deficiencies and lack of understanding, but God's Word is true and will stand the test of time.

An interesting thing to note about Revelation 12:5 is that the male child is caught up to "God's throne".  The September 23rd event doesn't portray this catching up in the sky, but only the birth of the child.  Should we expect to see the rapture itself portrayed in the sky?  I don't think we necessarily will, but I should point out that after Jupiter is "birthed" from Virgo it travels to the constellation Libra and precisely at midnight in Israel on December 25th, 2017, the male child Jupiter enters Libra where it stays for 41 weeks and three days, undergoing another nine month retrograde.  Libra (Latin for "scales") is associated with justice and judgment and some depictions of the constellation resemble a throne.  From the throne of God justice and judgment are given.  While everyone is focused on September 23rd, is it possible that the rapture happens on Christmas Day, a little over three months later?



Midnight In Israel On December 25th, 2017:

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After undergoing retrograde Jupiter leaves Libra on October 11th, 2018.  I think it is unlikely that the rapture will happen on Christmas Day in 2017 for two reasons: 1. Libra is not categorically associated with a throne - the connection is more tenuous to make, and 2. The December 25th date would not easily fit with any Tribulation timeline where Jesus' second coming could occur on a Fall feast day.  However, I offer it as a possibility and we should all be humble, open, and watchful, so that we are not caught unaware.

Source: http://www.unsealed.org/2017/01/the-revelation-12-sign-compendium.html
Last edited by amessenger4god on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:31 am

amessenger4god, please check your pm's.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby amessenger4god on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:13 pm

Abiding, thanks for the heads up - I have removed the hotlinks.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:03 pm

I would disagree with this interpretation of the sign of Rev 12 the the event scripture associates it with.

Rev 12 first describes the sign in the heavens and then describes an event associated with a specific period of time. Rev 12 describes the woman as going into the wilderness to a place prepared by God for 1,260 days and then for 3.5 years. 1,260 days and 3.5 years (and 42 months)are equivalent periods of time in scripture, and they are all associated with the latter half of the 70th week, aka the great tribulation, in other prophetic passages.

Rev 12 appears to be describing Satan being cast to earth and pursuing the woman who is then protected for 3.5 years in the wilderness. As the temple is rebuilt and there are worshipers in the temple in Rev 11, and the AC sets himself up in the temple at the midpoint of the week, it would follow that Israel does not go into the wilderness until the latter half of the 70th week.

Therefore, the sign in Rev 12 is associated with the latter half of the 70th week, the great tribulation and not the pre-trib rapture.

The authors of this article also err in the planet that Jesus is associated with. Venus is known in astronomy as the morning star because it often shines brightly in the morning. Jesus calls Himself the morning star in Rev 22 'I am...the bright Morning Star.' For the sign to be interpreted correctly one must have a basic knowledge of which celestial body is associated with which personality. In Biblical Astronomy, Mercury is associated with the angel Gabriel (messenger), Mars with the angel Michael, Venus with Jesus, Jupiter with God the Father, and Saturn with Satan.

In the constellations Virgo is associated with Israel and Leo is associated with the Lion of the tribe of Judah aroused for the rending of the prey (from 'witness of the stars' by Bullinger). In Sept of this year, which this article describes, Venus, Mercury and Mars are in Leo, perhaps picturing Jesus and the angels over or protecting Israel from the enemy. Jupiter is in Virgo, perhaps picturing the Father acting on Israel's behalf.

Saturn is in the constellation Ophiuchus, the pictured as the man (Jesus) wrestling with the serpent and with his heel on the scorpion, fighting the enemy.

it may be that the forces of God and Satan will be facing off over Israel.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:44 pm

The sign in Rev 12 is associated with a specific event, signs in the heavens often herald coming events and Rev 12 appears to be such a heralding. Rev 12 describes the sign and then gives a short description of the event, Israel going into the wilderness. Rev 12 then describes the event in more detail, Satan being cast to earth and pursuing the woman for 3.5 years, consistent with the time of the Great Tribulation.

Rev 12 would appear to be a depiction of events described by Jesus in Matt 24 regarding the AOD spoken of by Daniel, then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains as the time of great distress would be at hand.

Once one knows the associations of the planets and constellations with the personalities, the sign of Rev 12 becomes clearer. There are 2 signs depicted, the first, the woman, Virgo, clothed with the sun (sun in Virgo), with the moon under her feet (Moon below the constellation), with a crown of stars over her head (the circle of the constellations of the path of the sun), occurs during the fall of the year.

The woman being pregnant with the child who will rule with an iron scepter would point to the child be Jesus, associated with the planet Venus, Venus would be in Virgo which occurs every 4 years or so.

The second sign describes a multiheaded dragon which could be a reference to the constellation Hydra, who is pictured as a multiheaded serpent. There is another enormous serpent, the Orobouros, the Milky Way Galaxy seen edge on, that has an open mouth ready to devour, that could also fit the depiction. The serpent is in front of the woman pointing more toward the constellation Hydra.

The woman gives birth to the child, Venus leaves Virgo, and the child is caught up to God (associated with Jupiter), an apparent reference to a Venus Jupiter conjunction (appear close together). The child is also caught up to the throne, the throne being in heaven, suggesting that Venus and Jupiter pass by an area associated with the spiritual realm. One area that is associated with being a doorway to the spiritual realm is the dark rift, a dark area at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, that is also pictured as the mouth of the Orobourous.

The first sign occurs in the fall of every year, except for Venus being in Virgo which occurs every 4 years or so, the next occurrence being in the fall of 2018. The second sign occurs less often, and appears to occur over a period of several weeks, the next occurrence being in late 2018 through early 2019.

One part of the second sign that is not clear is the depiction in the 2nd sign of the serpent flinging a third of the stars to the earth, which could be describing a multiple asteroid strike, such as that depicted in the first 4 trumpets of Rev 8. Rev 8 does describe a greater woe for the trumpets that follow the initial 4, suggesting that events go from bad to worse, which could indicate the beginning of the great tribulation. And Rev 9 does describe a star falling to earth, likely a fallen angel (Satan), who opens the Abyss, which could also be consistent with the latter part of Rev 12.

So the sign of Rev 12 may hearld the coming of the great tribulation and Satan being cast down to earth, that events will go from bad to worse. The sign would also be a marker, like the AOD and the great falling away described by Jesus and Paul, that indeed the the Day Of the Lord is not far off.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:10 am

1ww: I really appreciate your taking the time to discuss this. I find our Lord fascinating to say the least. He is so wonderfully intelligent and while I struggle to understand everything He has done, and is doing, and how it relates to Him, His Word, and I see so many others do the same, I appreciate that all of us have different gifts and interests that edify.

Regarding your last two paragraphs and the wonder of what those signs might be, my immediate thought was of all the current chatter regarding what some refer to as the second planet or niribu......I have one friend who is absolutely fascinated with this subject and is forever trying to follow along at what is happening therewith. She talks about pole shifts and various other things related to gravity and so forth all the time.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:41 am

Just curious, concerning this particular group of signs. What if we took out a "Rapture" event from these equations? Your astronomical points are very accurate.

You see I believe that you are on the right string of thought. I hold, that this years month of Av begins what will be the beginning of many terrible issues. It falls within your time frame.

For the record, I am a believer in Christ. I do not accept the Rapture. I seek to work with the Saints, regardless of dogma.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:11 am

A_Watchman wrote:For the record, I am a believer in Christ. I do not accept the Rapture.


I don't want to derail the thread, but I'm in agreement with you, A_Watchman. I'm assuming you mean you don't "believe" in a rapture.

rapture thread for reference
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:40 am

Thank you, Abiding. I should of clarified. I do not accept the Dogma of the Rapture. I do not believe in the rapture. The evidence points to Israel. Only know of two people in the Old Testament that were taken up. Everyone else died like the beast of the earth. I have read Yahsuhua comes to gather his Elect to witness his victory. Then releasing them to the world as witnesses to his glory.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:30 pm

A_Watchman wrote: I hold, that this years month of Av begins what will be the beginning of many terrible issues. It falls within your time frame.

Something else falls within this time frame.

A year for a day prophetic fulfillment of the 1,335 days spoke by Daniel, in Daniel 12

Hhmmmmmm Daniel 12/Revelation 12

what could be in process of fulfillment as we speak, regarding the 1,335 days/years?

1,335
+ 687...Edited correction this date is Flexible within about 4 years (683-687)
2022 (the correction and flexible date could then be closer to 2020-2022)

"The Planting" of the Dome of the Rock Began in 687

This Years Month of Av may begin with the AOD, and the final 3.5 Actual Years along with it.
Last edited by shorttribber on Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jan 21, 2017 9:11 pm

Godstudent, thanks. I find God's use of the planets and constellations and their alignments in the timing of events quite fascinating.

As far as planets and stars and alignments, the planets follow an orbit, their path is circular and repeatable. A certain alignment or 'sign' may occur every 4 years or every 400 years but it does repeat. So how do we know when a 'sign' is 'the sign'?

When a sign is genuinely fulfilled one might expect something unique to occur, something that does not repeat. In the case of the Rev 12 sign the casting of the stars to the ground, some type of impact event, would be unique and not something that regularly repeats. The impact event at the time of the sign would let us know that the sign was unique, and would confirm where we were on God's timeline. It would also tie together other prophesied events such as the trumpets of Rev.

Also events on the earth could point to a sign in the heavens as being 'the sign', such as covenant being strengthened for 7 years, the fulfillment of a unique event described in scripture would make the events that follow 'special', the sign would then become unique.

If the sign of Rev 12 does occur prior to the midpoint of the 70th week and just prior to the great tribulation, it could give us some estimate of the time Christ's return as the number of days following events would be known, after the sign did occur. But prior to the sign occurring, we could not be sure that this was the sign unless some other recognizable prophesied event occurred, such as the covenant for 1 seven.

Also, while the amount of time following the AOD is known, the exact amount of time prior to the AOD is not known. Scripture does not list any specific number of days prior to the AOD as it does for the time following the event, suggesting that the time prior to the AOD may be longer or shorter than 3.5 years ( in the eastern mind a small part of a year can be counted as an entire year).

If the 2018-2019 time frame of the Rev 12 'sign' were indeed accurate, then events could begin at any time, we will know it when we see it.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:30 pm

1whowaits wrote:If the sign of Rev 12 does occur prior to the midpoint of the 70th week and just prior to the great tribulation, it could give us some estimate of the time Christ's return as the number of days following events would be known,

Correct, the best we would have is an Estimate, and that's what I believe Will occur.
I believe the AOD Will occur Very Near the Sign.
I guess I've come to the point where I think the AOD should occur sometime Between the End of June thru the End of September this Year.

And then the day of the Gathering (Rapture) would be only an Estimated time, and still unknown.....But at Least 1,260 After the AOD.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:09 pm

ST, yes we would have an estimate of the year and the month. As Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts at His first coming, He will very likely fulfill the last 3 feasts at His second coming. The first of the 3 is the Feast of Trumpets, which is dated by the sighting of the new moon. At that time the sun and moon will be darkened, so the exact day and hour will not be known even at that time, Jesus' appearance will likely declare the day, when the sky tears open.

The Feast of Trumpets, the awakening blast, would be the appropriate backdrop of the 'gathering' of Matt 24 when Jesus is in the clouds, and the Day of Atonement, the day of judgement, would be appropriate backdrop of His setting foot on the mount at Armageddon.

Approximately 1,260 days prior to that time would be the time of Passover. Because of the depiction of the 'fatal head wound' of Rev 13, some theorize that the AC will appear to be raised from a fatal wound performing a 'false resurrection' as a claim to being the messiah.

So the timeline could be, the destruction of Damascus in the spring (Isa 17), the destruction of the land of 'wings' during the month of AV (Isa 18), Gog-Magog in the fall (Joel 2), the AOD around Passover 2-3 years later, and the return at armageddon at the fall feasts 3.5 years after the AOD. Theoretically, of course....
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Jay Ross on Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:16 pm

And what if your expectations are not meet this year as is being suggested above?

Will you simply change to next year, 2019, or 2020 or 2021 etc. and bring the same sort of justification, suggestions and rational for the revised suggested years?

From my understanding of Revelation 12, I would suggest the time span of this prophetic chapter is of the order of five ages, from the time of the confirmation of God’s Covenantal undertaking with Abraham right up and until the very end of Creation when it will melt like wax

Perhaps we all need to step back, take in a big breath and ask ourselves whether we are prepared to take up our own cross to follow/be a disciple of Jesus. From what I read on this forum, it seems few are prepared to do just that. It seems that many want the easy way into heaven.

Be that as it may be, Christ has indicated the approximate time when the end of this present age will occur and from my research, 2018 is not that year. Perhaps we all should sharpen our pencils so that they are sharp and not dull.

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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:13 am

"An easy way to get into heaven."

No such thing.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:18 am

"From my understanding of Revelation 12, I would suggest the time span of this prophetic chapter is of the order of five ages,"

Interesting. Reference please?

The end of an Age, by which was referenced by many cultures, occurs mostly by way of Astrological/Astronomical observation.

Now if you are referring to a Talmudic/Kabballic reference, that might be accurate.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:29 am

1whowaits wrote: the AOD around Passover 2-3 years later, and the return at armageddon at the fall feasts 3.5 years after the AOD.

Seems we are near in agreement.

But to keep it simple and short.
I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.

After the AOD, there will be at least 1,260 days of great tribulation (Saints still on earth then) , and God's Wrath will be poured out during the following 30 days After That, But Saints Gone Before God Outpours His Wrath during that 30 day period.

In other words, 1,290 days of Great tribulation, but God
"Shortens" "Those Days" to closer to 1,260 for the Saints.


Following is an example of the beauty of Bible Prophecy....I could be wrong on this, but I don't think I am.
imagine this....
The 1,335 days(Day for a Year) prophecy began in (683-687 Exact date/Unknown), and it is then still being currently fulfilled.
The 1,290 day(Literal 24 hour days) Begins this Fall, and "Those Days" come to and End on the Exact Same Day as the 1,335 in 2022.

Added and Edited from above post...
1,335
+ 687...Edited correction this date is Flexible within about 4 years (683-687)
2022 (the correction and flexible date could then be closer to 2020-2022)
Last edited by shorttribber on Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Ready1 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:45 am

shorttribber wrote:But to keep it simple and short.
I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.


How will you know? What do you expect to see?
Just observing.

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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:55 am

Ready1 wrote:
shorttribber wrote:But to keep it simple and short.
I expect the AOD to occur 6-9 months from now, although it could possibly be sooner than that.


How will you know? What do you expect to see?

First, We will know because it will happen at the Dome of the Rock..."Let the READER Understand"

In the Dome of the Rock, it says (In Arabic) "God Has No Son and Needs No Son"

Let the READER Understand!

Second, We will know because, at the Same Time, the "Daily" Prayers will "BE TAKEN AWAY" at the Wailing Wall.

and Third, the TWO WITNESSES and the 144,000 may also be present, and become Known to us on That Day.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Looking4acity on Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:18 pm

Shorttribber, please check your pm.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby mrgravyard49 on Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:15 pm

a reminder about the blood moons, EVERYONE including me thought for sure something big would happen.
Nada,,,, Same with this, nothing will happen.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:57 pm

mrgravyard49 wrote:a reminder about the blood moons, EVERYONE including me thought for sure something big would happen.
Nada,,,, Same with this, nothing will happen.


Seems to me something Did happen...have you forgotten about the rise of ISIS? I never said one word about the Coming of Christ then, as so many others thought to be possible.
Nope, the timing wasn't right then...now it is.

Not for the Coming(Rapture), but the Great trib....we're almost there.

And not a Seven year trib, either. It will last no more than 1,290 days.....just as I said earlier in the thread..
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:46 pm

ST, our views are close in some ways and different in others, at least it makes the discussion interesting.

There is only 1 correct view and that is God's view, and He has chosen to keep at least part of His plan a mystery. And yet it appears that He wants us to explore His prophetic scripture and think about it, so that when the time of fulfillment comes we will recognize that fulfillment. And who knows, perhaps we might figure some of it out before it even occurs.

i am of the view that there will be an identifiable time prior to the AOD called the beginning of birth pangs, as Jesus described in Matt 24 and Luke 21, a time of war, famines, pestilences, earthquakes and great signs from heaven. This would proceed the AOD, and then the great tribulation would follow, things go from bad to worse, which is difficult to contemplate.

I believe things will go bad quickly, and be so severe that many will believe the end has come, that armageddon has occurred, but either they missed the catching up or Jesus did not return. i believe that is why in Matt 24 Jesus places an emphasis on the great falling away and the AOD occurring in the temple as taking place before the Day Of the Lord and His return, as does Paul in 2 Thess 2, so that there is an understanding that if these things have not occurred, the Day of the Lord has not yet come.

And this may also be a purpose for the sign of Rev 12, that if this sign has not occurred, even if events are very difficult, what is happening is not the great tribulation or the Day of the Lord but something else.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:07 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, our views are close in some ways and different in others, at least it makes the discussion interesting.

yep :typing:
1whowaits wrote:i believe that is why in Matt 24 Jesus places an emphasis on the great falling away and the AOD occurring in the temple as taking place before the Day Of the Lord and His return, as does Paul in 2 Thess 2, so that there is an understanding that if these things have not occurred, the Day of the Lord has not yet come.

Well, we know Jesus mentions no temple, and Paul mentions the "Tabernacle" OF the Lord.

A Tribulation "Temple" can't ever be Properly Described as the Temple OF God.

If all goes as I suspect though....it will only be six to nine months before those things I've said will begin.

Things are just really getting very interesting I think, no doubt about that!

Bless ya :hugs:
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:04 am

A_Watchman wrote:"From my understanding of Revelation 12, I would suggest the time span of this prophetic chapter is of the order of five ages,"

Interesting. Reference please?

The end of an Age, by which was referenced by many cultures, occurs mostly by way of Astrological/Astronomical observation.

Now if you are referring to a Talmudic/Kabballic reference, that might be accurate.


Revelation 12 was the reference I was using and another is Lamentation 5:19-22 and another is Hosea 6:1-3.

When you begin to put them all together, there will be five ages from when the bride, Israel first bursts onto the seen and the GWT judgement.

No magic was used from the Talmudic/Kabballic. My statement was scripturally sound. Sadly, it is just that the expectations of so many is too soon for it to be true in their minds. And no, there is no need to divine the ages by Astrological/Astronomical observation. Just a right understanding of scripture.

Shalom
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:26 am

And sadly, that is how Dogma is created.

Prophecy has been stated that after a Generation of Existence of a resurrected Israel, the last days of the Gentiles are upon us.

The beginning of tribulations that have never been seen, or will ever be seen again.

Correct legalese can get you above bar, but does not mean you should be a lawyer.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Jay Ross on Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:24 pm

A_Watchman wrote:And sadly, that is how Dogma is created.
Yes that is very true. You only have to look at how many different dogmas are found on this forum.

A_Watchman wrote:Prophecy has been stated that after a Generation of Existence of a resurrected Israel, the last days of the Gentiles are upon us.
That particular dogma exists because people do not understand Matthew 24:32, and the time span given in that verse. They also do not understand that the time span of the Greek word found in Matthew 24:34 from the Strong Greek Root, G:1074, and traditionally translated as "generation" is also better understood as an "age." The Greek word found in Matthew 24:34 "γενεὰ" is also found in these verses: - Matthew 12:39, 16:4, 17:17, 24:34, Mark 8:12, 9:19, 13:30, Luke 9:41, 11:29, 11:29, 21:32 and in each case the meaning is the same when the English word "age" is inserted instead of "generation."
Matthew 12:39: - But he answered them, "An evil and adulterous generation/age seeks for a sign; but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
and is also true in the other verses listed. In the case of Matthew 24:34, the signs referenced have been happening over a much greater time span than the usually accepted time span for a "generation" of 70 years and if the time span being indicated is much greater in duration than 70 years then the time span must be much greater than that assumed in this particular dogma.

A_Watchman wrote:The beginning of tribulations that have never been seen, or will ever be seen again.
This expression of the tribulation is of a time still in our distant future and will not be seen in our near future. It's time reference is given when the AOD is present in that Holy Place.
Matthew 24:15-22: - "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), . . . . your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been shortened, no human being would be saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.


A_Watchman wrote:Correct legalese can get you above bar, but does not mean you should be a lawyer.
You are so right there A_Watchman but do you also follow your own view in this matter.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby A_Watchman on Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:01 am

Have you dreamed dreams, yet? I have. Do you know the identity of one of the Witnesses? I do.

I serve him that made us.

By stating "That particular dogma exists because people do not understand Matthew 24:32," is arrogant. I have read the Coptic, and KJV. I have read the Torah. I am as studied as you.

I can assure you, that I have no agenda, but to find, and share the truth of the Word.

But Jay, let us WATCH. For in the next 9 months, the Falling away will intensify. The Beasts of Daniel 7 will soon be more apparent.

Concerning Matt 12:39, Yahushua was stating his resurrection. He also, I recall, (Matt. 16:3) mentioned "if you can discern the forecast of the weather, how can you not discern the signs which are in front of you?
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Jay Ross on Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:08 pm

A_Watchman wrote:Have you dreamed dreams, yet? I have.
AS you know all people dream dreams throughout their lives whether or not if they are righteous or unrighteous.

A_Watchman wrote:Do you know the identity of one of the Witnesses? I do.

I serve him that made us.
I am glad that you say that you know the identity of one of the two witnesses. From my observations, there is still much debate as to who the two witness will be as it is still very much a future event.

A_Watchman wrote:By stating "That particular dogma exists because people do not understand Matthew 24:32," is arrogant. I have read the Coptic, and KJV. I have read the Torah. I am as studied as you.
If you are as studied as you claim then why did you not provide your understanding of the single verse prophecy contained in Matthew 24:32 to demonstrate that my view/dogma is not in keeping with the word of God? I look forward to your wisdom on expanding the meaning of this one verse.

A_Watchman wrote:I can assure you, that I have no agenda, but to find, and share the truth of the Word.
Then perhaps sharing your "truth" as you understand it, without the tradition of the scholars will be edifying for all of us and help me to understand your position

A_Watchman wrote:But Jay, let us WATCH. For in the next 9 months, the Falling away will intensify. The Beasts of Daniel 7 will soon be more apparent.
But Isaiah tells us who the beasts are. Paul also tells us who they are as well. Isaiah also tells us, when the Beasts will be judged at the same time as when the kings of the earth will be judged and that they will be herded together to be imprisoned in the Abyss/Bottomless deep.

A_Watchman wrote:Concerning Matt 12:39, Yahushua was stating his resurrection. He also, I recall, (Matt. 16:3) mentioned "if you can discern the forecast of the weather, how can you not discern the signs which are in front of you?
Both of these Matthew references was concerning the discerning of the times in Jesus' day. Now concerning these times what are the signs that you are looking for to enable you to discern the times for today?

The sign to forewarn us of the impending time of judgement of the beasts and the rebelling kings of the earth has been seen globally by "all" of the people of the earth in our recent past and it is very easily discernible that this prophecy is still unfolding and will come to its fulfilment in around 26 or so years in sync with the timespan of Matthew 24:32.

Perhaps you may be able to tell me why this is not so.

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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Mr Baldy on Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:16 pm

Ready1 wrote:How will you know? What do you expect to see?


Excellent question......

Certainly appears to be A LOT of sensationalism and sophistry mentioned so far! :roll:
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:04 pm

Ready 1 wrote:Ready1 wrote:How will you know? What do you expect to see?Excellent question......Certainly appears to be A LOT of sensationalism and sophistry mentioned so far!

Ready1 wrote:How will you know? What do you expect to see?
Excellent question......Certainly appears to be A LOT of sensationalism and sophistry mentioned so far! :roll:



Mr. B,
Were you referring to the answer I gave to Ready 1 ?

Here was the answer I gave....
shorttribber wrote:First, We will know because it will happen at the Dome of the Rock..."Let the READER Understand"In the Dome of the Rock, it says (In Arabic) "God Has No Son and Needs No Son"Let the READER Understand!

Second, We will know because, at the Same Time, the "Daily" Prayers will "BE TAKEN AWAY" at the Wailing Wall.

and Third, the TWO WITNESSES and the 144,000 may also be present, and become Known to us on That Day.



This seems reasonable, and that's what I expect to see.

This is not what you are describing as sophistry is it? If so, I don't understand why you would say so.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:00 am

soph·ist·ry


/ˈsäfəstrē/


noun

noun: sophistry




the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.



•a fallacious argument.
plural noun: sophistries


synonyms: specious reasoning, fallacy, sophism, casuistry More




Had to look that one up.

Boy, you guys teach me new words all the time.

Mark (our Mod) Taught me a good one.....Pejorative......

Im still trying to incorporate it into my speak, but so far, I just keep recalling it....good enough.....
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Looking4acity on Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:52 pm

Ominous sign in the sky: Did Google Earth attempt to hide the red Dragon of revelation? http://www.thedailysheeple.com/ominous- ... ion_042017
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:33 pm

I seen an illustration of the "rev 12 sign" and the dragon looked more like a mouse to me, so I'm skeptical. But I don't need anymore signs, I'm convinced that things are going to start happening soon, and most likely this year. Any day now.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:54 pm

As stated earlier, i would disagree with the current interpretation of the Rev 12 sign supposedly occurring Sept 23, just thought i would bring this previous discussion forward as the Sept 23 date approaches.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby DaveG on Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:13 pm

I haven't posted here in quite some time but will try and avoid the whole Astronomy versus Astrology debate. The fact remains that God created the sun, the moon, the stars and the constellations for signs and seasons/festivals.

Starting with the total solar eclipse on August 21 which coincided with the beginning of Elul, we have witnessed two terrible hurricanes that have caused massive destruction across the United States. Elul is important as it is a traditional time of repentance heading towards the fall feasts. IMO, I believe God is trying to tell us to repent.

I will also add this from Luke when describing the signs of the last days.

"25 There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

I firmly believe it's no coincidence the sign of this discussion is happening during Rosh Hashanah, nor do I believe it's a coincidence that 40 days from the August 21 total eclipse is September 30, Yom Kippur. Yeshua will fulfill the fall feasts at the time of his second coming, just as he fulfilled the spring feasts to the very days of his first coming. This doesn't mean his return will be this year, but I believe the order of his second coming will coincide precisely with the fall feasts, and we should look around us, and above us to understand the signs he spoke of. IMO, we have rounded the corner and are nearing the home stretch.

The best thing you can do is pray, and ask God for reassurance on this and the times we are living in. If you look at everything that is happening and it's relation to God's calendar, your eyes will open widely.

:armor:
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:48 pm

God has and will use signs in the heavens during prophetic fulfillment, as Rev 12 demonstrates. My point is that what occurs on Sept 23 has nothing to do with Rev 12 and its fulfillment. The originator of this theory got some of the basics of Biblical Astronomy wrong and appears to also have got the date of the Feast of Trumpets wrong, it occurs on Sept 21-22, not the 23rd. If the basics are wrong, how can the rest of the theory be trusted? It just contributes to prophecy fulfillment fatigue, hopes are raised and when nothing occurs, people become discouraged.

But that does not mean that trouble is not coming, it does appear that we are entering a more difficult time, but we don't need a sign to figure that out. Myself i wouldn't be surprised to see 'Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin' showing up somewhere, the writing is on the wall.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby DaveG on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:33 am

I agree with you. If the sign is coming from God, it will be perfect, and will fit perfectly with the time.

Any "sign" that is stretched, altered, or changed to fit the narrative or time is false and not from God.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:31 am

1whowaits wrote: The originator of this theory got some of the basics of Biblical Astronomy wrong and appears to also have got the date of the Feast of Trumpets wrong, it occurs on Sept 21-22, not the 23rd.

The post above uses the dates...22nd-23rd. Is it possible that the dates 21st-22nd are incorrect? I'm just asking 1WW because I don't know the Absolute Factual date either way.

The first thing I want to mention with regard to the feast of trumpet dates, and the obvious attempt to connect these days to the rapture is this.
The rapture is not what these days represent.

I do believe, as I stated in some posts before, that the Sign is possibly connected to the Great tribulation and the AOD. Between the soon coming sign and the spring of next year is the most likely window for the Start of the Great Trib and the AOD.


We will see.


All the Christians looking to this coming sign as a date for the rapture will be surely disappointed IMO.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby GodsStudent on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:30 pm

Wondering if Brett has seen this thread.....????
The OP was pretty good, imo....a few things need tweaking or filling in, but again, a lot to work from......
Several comments in posts clarify or improve, but I dont see throwing the baby out with the bath water as a good way to approach the contents of this thread.
Lots of interesting elements being discussed within this thread.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:40 pm

GodsStudent wrote:Wondering if Brett has seen this thread.....????
The OP was pretty good, imo....a few things need tweaking or filling in, but again, a lot to work from......
Several comments in posts clarify or improve, but I dont see throwing the baby out with the bath water as a good way to approach the contents of this thread.
Lots of interesting elements being discussed within this thread.

I'm not sure brett has seen this thread...was wondering the same thing.
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:13 pm

ST, the 'official' date for the feast of trumpets is Sept 21st, on the Israeli calendar (the 22nd is included for those outside of Israel who might not see the new moon in Israel). The sighting of the new moon is also expected to be on the 21st, according to the 'renewed moon' site. The OP appears to be attempting to associate the alignment on Sept 23 with the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets (actually i would agree that the meeting the Lord in the air at the last trump occurs at the Feast of trumpets, just prior to armageddon) and therefore the date is adjusted a bit to fit the theory.

In addition, the male child who rules with a rod of iron, Jesus, is associated with Venus (the bright morning star- Rev 22:16) in Biblical Astronomy and not Jupiter (associated with God the Father). This would change the meaning of the Sept 23 'sign' completely, God the Father is not born of the Woman, Israel, but God will be with and protect Israel.

Resources that can be referred to regarding Biblical Astronomy are Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars', and the 'Biblical Astronomy' website and the research done by Mr Wadsworth.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby shorttribber on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:41 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, the 'official' date for the feast of trumpets is Sept 21st, on the Israeli calendar (the 22nd is included for those outside of Israel who might not see the new moon in Israel). The sighting of the new moon is also expected to be on the 21st, according to the 'renewed moon' site. The OP appears to be attempting to associate the alignment on Sept 23 with the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets (actually i would agree that the meeting the Lord in the air at the last trump occurs at the Feast of trumpets, just prior to armageddon) and therefore the date is adjusted a bit to fit the theory.

In addition, the male child who rules with a rod of iron, Jesus, is associated with Venus (the bright morning star- Rev 22:16) in Biblical Astronomy and not Jupiter (associated with God the Father). This would change the meaning of the Sept 23 'sign' completely, God the Father is not born of the Woman, Israel, but God will be with and protect Israel.

Resources that can be referred to regarding Biblical Astronomy are Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars', and the 'Biblical Astronomy' website and the research done by Mr Wadsworth.


Thanks for that explanation :grin:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:01 pm

shorttribber wrote:
1whowaits wrote:ST, the 'official' date for the feast of trumpets is Sept 21st, on the Israeli calendar (the 22nd is included for those outside of Israel who might not see the new moon in Israel). The sighting of the new moon is also expected to be on the 21st, according to the 'renewed moon' site. The OP appears to be attempting to associate the alignment on Sept 23 with the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets (actually i would agree that the meeting the Lord in the air at the last trump occurs at the Feast of trumpets, just prior to armageddon) and therefore the date is adjusted a bit to fit the theory.

In addition, the male child who rules with a rod of iron, Jesus, is associated with Venus (the bright morning star- Rev 22:16) in Biblical Astronomy and not Jupiter (associated with God the Father). This would change the meaning of the Sept 23 'sign' completely, God the Father is not born of the Woman, Israel, but God will be with and protect Israel.

Resources that can be referred to regarding Biblical Astronomy are Bullinger's 'Witness of the Stars', and the 'Biblical Astronomy' website and the research done by Mr Wadsworth.


Thanks for that explanation :grin:


Agreed. Makes a HUGE difference. :wink:
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby Spreading Salt on Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:23 am

:2cents:

1WW states
In addition, the male child who rules with a rod of iron, Jesus, is associated with Venus (the bright morning star- Rev 22:16) in Biblical Astronomy and not Jupiter (associated with God the Father). This would change the meaning of the Sept 23 'sign' completely, God the Father is not born of the Woman, Israel, but God will be with and protect Israel.


God-Jesus-Holy Spirit = God

I think trying to stipulate "this is Father, this is Jesus, this is HS" is wrong. One God. Whether or not certain planets are associated with certain persons of the triune God is pointless IMO. They are all One God.

There is certainly some compelling information and out there regarding things going on all over the planet. I don't believe in coincidence but Diving Providence. For a watcher like myself, it is quite exciting to be alive during this season in human history. I don't know what it all means but very cool to think of the possibilities. Here is a website discussing many things and aspects to events, in particular that mentioned Rev 12 detail.

http://www.unsealed.org/

Regardless of our views about Raptures and 2nd Coming timing, our understanding of events isn't going to stop The King's plans. We see through a glass darkly for sure. Doesn't keep things from unfolding. Every day I am amazed at the timing and placing of so many things through the Providence of God, whether it is a special interaction with a person or the placement of myself in the midst of something out of this world cool. I see Him working.

Keep looking up! We are told to watch! :blessyou: :hugs2: :bowing: SS
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:47 pm

SS, you appear to have missed the point. A sign in the heavens involving the movement of the planets is being described, essentially by God himself, and God describes Himself as 2 separate entities in this sign, the male child, Jesus, being caught up to God, the Father. They are both God but God Himself describes separate personalities, both symbolized by moving heavenly bodies, ie planets (stars don't move, except for the sun). The question is not about 1 God, but which planet is associated with which personality of the Godhead.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby mark s on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:15 pm

Are you sure John's vision was of stars, and not the things he described? Are you sure the things he described were meant to be identified with stars?

What tell us this in the Bible?

Much love,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:24 pm

Mark, Rev 12 clearly describes a sign appearing in heaven, with the sun and moon and stars in certain positions. Heaven can refer to the place of God's throne or the sky, the positioning of the sun, moon and stars makes it obvious that this is a reference to celestial bodies in the sky. And those who have some knowledge of Astronomy can identify the constellations and planets associated with the personalities described.

This sign would appear to be a marker in time that the GT is about to begin. Know the signs and you could know the time.
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby mark s on Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:34 am

1whowaits wrote:Mark, Rev 12 clearly describes a sign appearing in heaven, with the sun and moon and stars in certain positions. Heaven can refer to the place of God's throne or the sky, the positioning of the sun, moon and stars makes it obvious that this is a reference to celestial bodies in the sky. And those who have some knowledge of Astronomy can identify the constellations and planets associated with the personalities described.

This sign would appear to be a marker in time that the GT is about to begin. Know the signs and you could know the time.


That's just it. Knowing the signs. We have clear signs to look for, and I'm seeing them!

As far as the vision, I simply don't believe that's the correct interpretation of the vision, that it's intended to describe a celestial time clock that we can look up and read. Using ancient Hebrew constellations, matching star names to beings, plotting the star charts to see when it will be.

And, I believe that the Revelation contains a specific chronology which this theory does not account for. I see such a thing as putting this passage in conflict with others.

Also . . .

"could know" is not knowing. But we will know. That I know.

:spin:

Much love,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: The Revelation 12 Sign Compendium

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:21 pm

Mark, the chronology would fit within the framework laid out in Rev if the seals, trumpets and bowels occur somewhat in parallel, they do appear to end with the same event. This sign would occur sometime during the first 4 trumpets of Rev 8, when things are coming down on the earth. Rev 8 then indicates a greater woe on the earth because of the last 3 trumpets, suggesting that the final 3 are worse then the initial 4, consistent with the beginning of the GT.

The last 3 trumpets describe a 'star', likely an angel, falling down to earth and opening the Abyss from which a who knows what army arises, with a fallen angel /demonic king over them. This could be consistent with the latter part of Rev 12 when Satan is cast down and spews out water to sweep the woman away. Satan may by spewing something other than water akin to opening the Abyss.

Actually the signs of Rev 12 could fit within the chronology of the Trumpets in Rev. 8, the parallels are there.
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