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[YeshElsm]

http://joshuaelsom.blogspot.com/2011/10 ... arold.html

ONE THING I HAVE IN COMMON WITH HAROLD CAMPING AND ONE THING I DO NOT

Ever since the day that Jesus left this earth his followers have been trying to figure out when He would be coming back. Harold Camping, who has predicted that that day is today,1 is only the most recent in a vast sea of men and women who have purported to have knowledge of the End. Camping certainly will not be the last.

Just to give you an idea of how early these predictions and false teachings of Christ’s return began to trouble the Church, consider that the Apostle Paul had to deal with them. In his second letter to the church at Thessalonica Paul wrote to assure this flock that the Day of God’s wrath had not yet come. Apparently there had been a false prophet milling around the church who had suggested that the persecution that the Thessalonians were then experiencing was evidence that God’s judgement was being poured out on them and that they had been left behind. Paul assures them that this was not the case and then he reminds them of what he had previously taught.

“Do not be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. (1 Thes 2:2, ESV)”

From the Apostle’s day on there has likely not a decade passed without some pronouncement that Jesus was either already here or that he was soon to arrive. Most of these have passed into obscurity without any tangible consequence, save a little mud on the face of the one who offered the false prediction. But then there are the others. Predictions which stand out in history because they have ended in great tragedy. These false predictions serve as a warning to all who would offer their prognostication of the Day of the Lord.

One of these tragic stories centers on a town in northwest Germany called Münster. In the 16th century Münster was the center of much controversy because of two apocalyptic visionaries named John Matthys and John of Leiden. These radical Anabaptists not only displaced the existing government in Münster and replaced it with an Old Testament theocracy but they also claimed that their small Westphalian town was the “New Jerusalem” foreseen in the book of Revelation; the city from which Jesus would execute His Millennial Judgement upon the world.2 Matthys had assumed leadership of a fringe Anabaptist movement after its former leader Melchoir Hoffman had been imprisoned. Hoffman had speculated that Jesus' return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533, and that Christ would reign from Strasbourg, Germany.3

After Hoffman’s imprisonment Matthys and Leiden began to doubt whether Hoffman’s prediction about Strasbourg was accurate. So they decided that it must be their hometown of Münster, which was already under the control of Anabaptists, and they led his followers there. Matthys knew that his new theocratic government would be unwelcome and would draw a swift reaction from the Bishop, so Matthys began to prepare Münster for certain war. He expelled all those who would not submit to his radical views, he rallied his followers, sent for help and acquired what weapons he could. Franz von Waldeck, the bishop over Münster, lay the city under siege and tried to starve Matthys and his followers into submission. They would not. On Easter Day 1534 Matthys left the safety of Münster’s walls, with 30 of his followers, believing himself to carry the spirit of Gideon. Matthys and his small team met the Bishop’s troops on the field of battle and were very quickly killed. His head was put on a spike and displayed before the city's walls with the hope that Matthys’ death would discourage his remaining followers, he could not have been more wrong. Leiden was quickly named the “King of Jerusalem” and began to lead the 9000 citizens of Münster. The siege on Münster lasted many more months but was finally successful when the Bishop’s troops were led into the city by a traitor. In the end, thousands of lives were lost, one false prophet was killed in battle and the other was left to die, hanging from the spire of the Lamberti Church in a cage for all to see.

On May 22 of this year Harold Camping was proven to be a false prophet after Jesus failed to show up on the twenty-first. And I suspect that tomorrow when we wake up his amended prophecy will be proven false as well. Back in May much was said about those who had been duped into believing Camping. His followers sold their property, cashed in their retirements, and handed it all over to Camping and Family Radio’s massive publicity campaign. But what you may have not heard was that lives were lost over Camping’s teaching. Did you know that a 14-year-old girl from Russia was so scared of the May 21 doomsday and rapture prediction that she committed suicide the same day?4 Did you know that a man in Eugene, Oregon shot his coworker after he was mocked for having believed the false prophecy of Harold Camping?5 Did you know that hundreds of men and women in North Vietnam were shot to death and decapitated because they were emboldened by Camping’s sure word of prophecy and began to proclaim the day of God’s judgement.6

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. (Matt 24:36, ESV)”

By this point in the article you may be wondering if I will ever get around to telling you what I have in common with Harold Camping. You might be able to think of many things I would not have in common with him but what do I share with this man? To my shame, like Camping, I have made a prediction about the End and the day of Jesus’ return. In fact, I started this blog to promote that date. It has been quite a few years since then and my understanding of the Scripture has radically changed. I have removed all of those articles from this website and any outside forums where I was able to access them and take them down.

The thing that causes me some amount of fear is that my prediction was far less cryptic and much easier to understand than Harold Camping’s was. Once I posted it on the internet it went everywhere. I saw myself quoted on a number of websites and even heard my theory mentioned on a radio program. To this day I still get emails from people who have read it and want to know more; one man even wanting to quote me in the book he is writing on the subject. I will not reproduce the error of that prediction here and perpetuate it further. No doubt, some of your interests will be piqued beyond control and you will go looking for it. I am sure you will not have to search long because it is still floating around on the web. Please, if you do read it, use discernment and do not pass it around. Fortunately, I was a nobody when I wrote it (still a nobody) and did not have the backing of a 200 station radio network behind me like Camping did. Otherwise, who knows how far it could have gone. Who knows what tragedy might have befallen, or more accurately stated, might yet befall those who would listen to my prediction of the Judgement.

So what do I not share in common with Harold Camping, specifically? Repentance. I wish to publicly repent of everything I have written or said concerning the date I once presented as the day of Christ’s return. I hereby, disavow any association with this prediction and call those who might still believe it to do the same. I was wrong for pursuing it, wrong for promoting it and I want to ask your forgiveness and the Lord’s for such a reckless use of His Word. May God’s grace spare the hearts and lives of those who might read still today.

It has been said that the man who admits he was wrong yesterday shows himself to be wiser today. I pray that is true of me. God censured Harold Camping by removing his voice.7 I pray that God would spare me this shame and rather inflict my guilt upon His Son who died for my rebellion against Him.

Footnotes:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blo ... _blog.html
Ozment, Steven, The Age of Reform 1250-1500, (Westford, Mass: Yale), p. 345
http://www.allempires.com/article/index ... ne_munster
http://www.christianpost.com/news/fearf ... day-50542/
http://www.atoast2wealth.com/tag/teen-s ... d-camping/
http://lighthousechurchinc.org/falsepro ... killed.pdf
http://www.christianpost.com/news/harol ... nse-51162/

[savedbygrace]

Hello YeshElsm! Great post! to FP!

[YeshElsm]

I did receive an email today from Jesse Woodrow, co-host of Politics & Religion, stating that he would be looking into what I had sent him.

[Final Trumpet]

Welcome YeshElsm! Great information you posted!

[good4u]

Welcome YeshElsm!

Your work is really, really interesting!

But don't you think even w/all our speculation and date setting we are setting ourselves up for real disappointment? I include myself in this as well.

Did not the LORD say and cautions us NOT to do date setting? For no man knows the the day or hour of my coming, says Jesus. Having said that it does not mean we cannot know the season of his coming once the signs are in place and the signs are not totally there yet, I believe. I just want to temper my enthusim for your work with a good dose of godly wisdom and not set expectations so high that when realtiy comes knocking on our door we don't loose heart.

[Final Trumpet]

I don't think anyone is necessarily date setting. I think they are alerting people to these discoveries. The church has stopped looking and buried their heads in the sand with the "no one knows the day or hour" so you dare not mention anything that even has a remote chance of pointing to a date. These things are important and people need to stop hiding from them. They speak of the lateness of the hour.

[YeshElsm]

I understand your concern and I share your feelings but I also believe that it is quite possible that God is pouring out His grace upon His Church to prepare them for what is to come.

“Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND."
Daniel 12


Perhaps the following quote will be of some use. This was a response that I made recently on another website. Someone, who likely did not even read what I had written, simply stated, "...no one knows the day or the hour."

Shortly after that quote however one of Jesus' disciples asks him ,"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Jesus' response was,"It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of THAT servant will come on a day when HE does not expect him and at an hour HE is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Another thing to consider in your response is that Jesus may have been fulfilling the Jewish betrothal type. This was a typical response from a bridegroom who knew not the day or the hour of the abduction of his bride nor the time of the consummation of the marriage.

Consider also that we are children of the light and not children of darkness.

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I Thessalonians 5


Therefore, it will be the BLIND churches of Laodecia and Sardis that will not know the day of His appearing!

Therefore if YOU will not watch, I will come upon YOU as a thief, and YOU will not know what hour I will come upon YOU!
Revelation 3

Jesus completely fulfilled all of the Spring Feasts of the Hebrew calendar, in order and on the very day that they were ordained to be observed. He fulfilled Passover on the Cross, He fulfilled the Feast of Unleavened Bread in the Grave, He fulfilled the Feast of Firstfruits in His Resurrection and the Holy Spirit fulfilled Shavuot on Pentecost.
God is the same YESTERDAY,TODAY and FOREVER. While, the title of this thread was merely a hook to get people into the discussion and I'd never claim to actually know the DATE; I will say with utmost certainty that the Tribulation and the Rapture will occur on the Feast of Trumpets, Jesus will take His throne on Yom Kippur and we will celebrate the beginning of the Millenial Reign of Christ by constructing the 3rd Temple on the Feast of Tabernacles.

[savedbygrace]

I will say with utmost certainty that the Tribulation and the Rapture will occur on the Feast of Trumpets, Jesus will take His throne on Yom Kippur and we will celebrate the beginning of the Millenial Reign of Christ by constructing the 3rd Temple on the Feast of Tabernacles.

Ahhh yes, but the question is... which Feast of Trumpets which the rapture will occur??? I would say it is definitely not this September 29-30.
Check out this thread and you will know why I believe this.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=41548
Blessings,
SBG

[1whowaits]

Yes, it is highly likely that the rapture will occur on the feast of Trumpets, armageddon on the Day of Atonement, and Jesus setting up His kingdom at the feast of Tabernacles. But the 4 feasts already fulfilled by Jesus were fulfuilled in sequence during the same period of time, in the same year.

So also it will be with the 3 feasts to yet be fulfilled, they will be fulfilled together and in sequence during the same period of time, during the same year. And their fulfillment together will occur at the end of the 70th week, this is the precendent set by our Lord Himself, and there is nothing in scripture to indicate any separation in the fulfillment of the fall feasts by Jesus.

[1whowaits]

Also the logic of the 62 sevens being fulfilled prior to 1967 does not follow on reviewing Dan 9.

Dan 9 states- 'After the 62 sevens the Anointed One will be cut off and have nothing.' This was clearly fulfilled at Jesus' first coming.

If the 62 weeks has a double fulfillment, then Jesus would have to be cut off and have nothing again in 1967. Did that occur?

Also the 7 sevens preceeds the 62 weeks in Daniel, it does not follow the 62 weeks- 'From the issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens.' For your view to be correct the 7 sevens would have to follow the 62 weeks, which is not what Daniel 9 states, the 7 sevens preceed the 62 sevens.

Also for your view to be correct the 70th week would have to overlap the 7 sevens (ending in 2015, what happened to the 70th week?), which is not the case in Dan 9, the 70th week is a separate week- 'Seventy sevens are decreed for your people....'. With your view we end up with only 69 sevens.

Also the during the last 7 the AC confirms a covenant, breaks a covenant, and comes to his end, which is not described as part of the 7 sevens earlier in the passage.

Rather than the 7 sevens being fulfilled again, you might want to consider that from June 1967 to Sept 2015 is exactly 49 Biblical years (360 day years), which ends just prior to the Day of Atonement. 49 years is the time that transpires prior to the Year of Jubilee, which always begins on a Day of Atonement. And the counting of the time prior to the Year of Jubilee begins when Israel is in the land, which was not really fulfilled until Israel retook Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria, in June 1967.

[rabbisdust]

I thought He was born on Feast of Tabernacles fulfilling that.

[savedbygrace]

Excellent breakdown, 1whowaits, I was just considering this information and taking some time to digest it and I was going to respond but you beat me to it... LOL

I agree the 69 weeks were fulfilled already, from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem given by Artaxerxes Longimanus (on approximately March 16, 445 BC) to Jesus' triumphal entry on a donkey into Jerusalem (approximately April 6, 32AD) was 69 'sevens', or 'weeks' of years.

I like the 49 years counted from the six day war 1967 theory better, the year of Jubilee would be in Sept 2015, possibly the beginning of the millennium. That theory leaves room for the 70th week somewhere near the end of this age.

[Final Trumpet]

Ok, I just did some calculations with some of the numbers and you might need to look at them again.

You had:

August 25th, 1539 (Rebuilding of the wall) + 62 weeks = June 7, 1967 (Capture of Jerusalem)

From Aug 25th 1539 + 62 weeks (62x7=434 years x 360 days = 156,240 days) and added to that date = June 12, 1967. The peace agreement ending the war was on the 11th. The 12th would have been the first day of peace.

June 7th, 1967 (Jerusalem becomes the capitol of Israel for the first time in 1900 years) + 7 weeks = September 28th, 2015 (Yom Kippur)

From June 12th 1967 + 7 weeks (7x7=49 years x 360 days = 17,640 days) = Sept 28, 2015

However, there is a missing week (62+7=69).

[YeshElsm]

August 25th, 1539 (Rebuilding of the wall) + 62 weeks = June 7, 1967 (Capture of Jerusalem)

From Aug 25th 1539 + 62 weeks (62x7=434 years x 360 days = 156,240 days) and added to that date = June 12, 1967. The peace agreement ending the war was on the 11th. The 12th would have been the first day of peace.

June 7th, 1967 (Jerusalem becomes the capitol of Israel for the first time in 1900 years) + 7 weeks = September 28th, 2015 (Yom Kippur)

From June 12th 1967 + 7 weeks (7x7=49 years x 360 days = 17,640 days) = Sept 28, 2015

However, there is a missing week (62+7=69).

Depends on which calender you are using.

But you know what? Perhaps there was some oversight on my part. I used the following Calculator to determine the day. August 25th 1539 which only gives the Julian date. This calendar shows the Gregorian date as September 4th, 1539. Hmmmm....I will have to think about this for a minute.

[YeshElsm]

I understand your point 1whowaits. However, what I am proposing is not a rehash of the entire 70 weeks. I am only suggesting that there is a double fulfillment of the 69.

I am only dealing with that portion of the prophecy that speaks directly to the triggering event unto its consumation. Namely, that the event that triggered the 69 week countdown in 445 BC to Messiah the Prince in His first Advet was the "rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem" by Nehemiah.
The event that triggered the 69 week countdown in 1539 AD to Messiah the Prince in His second Advent was the "rebuilding of the walls" by Suleiman the Magnificent.

Regarding the 7 week/62 week issue. I do not think that the "..after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off," passage is an obstacle at all. Because we know for a fact that it was after the completion of the full 69 weeks, to the very day, that Jesus was riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. So yes it was after the 62 weeks, but stating "after 62 weeks" is in effect stating 69. It has to be that way; the only other alternative is to suggest that the Bible is flawed in its ability to tell history in advance. And I am sure no one here is willing to concede that.

As far as which comes first the 7 or 62, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe it is playing out in reverse order in this second fulfillment.

1st Advent
445 BC (Edict of Artaxerxes) + 7 Weeks = 396 BC (the last prophetic utterance by Malachi before the years of silence?)
396 BC (Nehemiah builds the gates of the city?) + 62 weeks = 32 AD (Jesus rides into Jerusalem humble riding a donkey)

2nd Advent
1539 (Suleiman the Magnificent rebuilds the wall of Jerusalem) + 62 weeks = 1967 (Capturing the city of Jerusalem)
1967 (Jerusalem, once again the capitol city of Israel) + 49 years = 2015 (Jesus rides into Jerusalem TRIUMPHANT riding a white horse)

Hopefully I was clear enough to draw a distinction here; making it obvious that there can be a second fulfillment of the 69 weeks without involving the 70th. If you are not satisfied, I completely and humbly understand. I would suggest though that you sure have a LOT of coincidences piling up here. And I am not talking about what I have found, I am talking about the political climate in Jerusalem today. I am talking about the "globalization" of the world, the completion of the 6th Millenial day and on and on. These facts are just too many to ignore, in my opinion.

Again, I must make it clear that I am not saying empirically that this is "IT", neither am I ready to cash in the 401K...yet. But I tell you what I would not at all be surprised if this is in fact the End of the Age.

I will be unavailble to respond for the next week. Can't wait to see what you guys come up with; for or against.

[YeshElsm]

Depends on which calender you are using.

But you know what? Perhaps there was some oversight on my part. I used the following Calculator to determine the day. August 25th 1539 which only gives the Julian date. This calendar shows the Gregorian date as September 4th, 1539. Hmmmm....I will have to think about this for a minute.

Well, I just confirmed that the calander software that I am using, Kaluach3, auto adjusts to compensate for the Julian-Gregorian transition. I used the Julian date of August 25th 1539 and looked it up on the calander and found Elul 11/12 5299. So my calculations are accurate to the day.

Unless you can see a hole in my logic that I am blind to.

[YeshElsm]

Excellent breakdown, 1whowaits, I was just considering this information and taking some time to digest it and I was going to respond but you beat me to it... LOL

I agree the 69 weeks were fulfilled already, from the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem given by Artaxerxes Longimanus (on approximately March 16, 445 BC) to Jesus' triumphal entry on a donkey into Jerusalem (approximately April 6, 32AD) was 69 'sevens', or 'weeks' of years.

I like the 49 years counted from the six day war 1967 theory better, the year of Jubilee would be in Sept 2015, possibly the beginning of the millennium. That theory leaves room for the 70th week somewhere near the end of this age.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you are only considering the 7 weeks you still end up in the exact same spot. In either scenario you have the problem (as you see it). Whether it be the 7 weeks (49 years) or the 69 (483 years) they both end up becoming coterminous with the 70th Week. My theory is not dethroning Pastor Biltz', it is, in my opinion, supplementing it. Both ideas leave room for the 70th week, because we are only interested in that part of the prophecy that states from "this" to "that". The "this" is the rebuilding of the walls and the "that" is unto Messiah the Prince.

BTW, I too believe that the 69 weeks have been completely fulfilled. But I also believe that there will be a second fulfillment of all 69, not just the 7. Just consider the Abomination of Desolation, it has happened twice since Daniel 9 and it and will happen again.

[YeshElsm]

I just reread your post savedbygrace. I see that you were not speaking of a secondary fulfillment of the 7 weeks of Daniel terminating on 2015 but a Jubilee year. Ok that works too. However it happens is just fine with me.

[YeshElsm]

I am really, really stoping now. I am leaving tomorrow morning for SoCal. I will be attending the Ambassador's Academy. The Ambassador's Academy is put on by Living Waters. The ministry, led by Ray Comfort/Kirk Cameron, which also produces the Way of the Master television show. Going down to do some OPEN-AIR preaching! Doesn't get much better than that!

You have not lived until you have announced with a LOUD voice the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ openly amongst the perishing!

[savedbygrace]

Hello YeshElsm, I live in SoCal, and I like the 'Way of the Master' gospel street preaching techniques. I would love to be a part of something like that sometime. I'll keep you in my prayers, may God bless your efforts!

Jake

[Sue-M]

For the slow learners here. What he is saying is that there were two instances of the 69 weeks? One after the Jews left Babylon and another one with the Ottman Empire. The first one led to Jesus being cut off (after the 69 weeks). And the second one will lead to Jesus returning again. Am I understanding this correctly?

Either way, I don't see the last week being fulfilled in the first instance? Jesus was "cut off" after 69 weeks and we are still waiting for the last week. And I guess what he is saying is that after the Ottman Empire rebuilt the wall until these eclipses in 2014/15, this is also 69 weeks? Is that correct?

If this is true, then this solidifies for me that the last week is definately being held separate for the Jews. I'm getting a little confused with everyone doing their own calculations. Please tell me if you all are counting the last week in any of this or are just counting the 69 weeks?

What I think is very interesting is this prophecy in Daniel 9 is split another way. It's split by the land and the rebuilding of the temple. When the Jews returned from Babylon, they returned first and then it was later on that they rebuilt the wall of Jerusalem and the Temple. And the time from when these happened after the Babylon captivity, is the exact amount of time for both. So it was the same amount of time from when Babylon took the Jews captive until they were allowed to return to their land (70 years). And it was the same amount of time also from when the temple was desecrated (however you spell that, lol) by Babylon until Cyrus issued the decree to rebuild the temple and it was rebuilt. Gabriel split the prophecy (of 70 weeks two separate ways) according to the return of the people (both times) and the rebuilding of the city (both times). The clock starts ticking two separate times. There are bascially two separate prohecies being fulfilled in this one prophecy. One for the people and one for the city. And both of these are given 70 weeks. And both have been fulfilled up to 69 weeks.

But, I still don't see the last week being fulfilled. I don't see it as being fulfilled in the first instance, where Jesus was "cut off" in 32 AD, and I don't think there is a last week in what is being proposed here from the Ottman Empire building the wall until these eclipses in 2014/15? Am I completely off in my thinking?

[good4u]

Not only are dual fulfillments of prophecy possible, but probable as our OP has pointed out. Ah...the beauty of God's sovereignty and His Eternal Word...unique in all the world! So I don't at all discount the OP's work here and I find it admirable because I could not do that--it would make my head hurt. LOL!

Nevertheless, if MORE signs from God's Word are confirmed in the near future then indeed our young OP may be on to something and that is what I caution him, you and include myself here about. But without further signs confirmed by prophecy in God's Word it all becomes an intellectual theory for me. Tho' indeed fun to read there is no doubt. I can just hear the excitment in everyone's post.

[YeshElsm]

I think you said it much more effectively than I was able to. Yes, I am only concerned with that portion of the scripture that says from the rebuilding of the walls of Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince is 69 weeks. And I think it is a great point that you make how Jesus was not cut off at the completion of the 69th week. That did not occur for another 7 days.

[YoungLion]

The poetry of all this makes me wonder what would be a better bit of timing for G-d to get it all done? It lines up so beautifully, how could it possibly be wrong. Why would He choose any other timeline?

I also wonder...

People have never really agreed on when Jesus was born. There must be a way of using this eclipse model and finding a year with unusual celestial signs. Imagine the eclipse activity during a year when G-d incarnates Himself! Have I missed something? Did someone already take a look at this?

[YeshElsm]

Man I wish I had time to tell you guys what happend the night before I first watched the "Blood Moons" video. Let's just say I had a dream. I will tell you that story and another cool thing that happened during my reasearch when I get time. Got to get to the airport.

[Final Trumpet]

Hey YeshElsm, I see what your saying. The math does work, just not for the date of the recapturing on the 7th. The date of the 12th is the first day of the signed peace following the 6 day war. I was using the same date calculator you pointed to.

And it makes sense about the 69 weeks. The time of the rebuilding to the time of Messiah the Prince. You were not considering the last week because that week was not included in that time of the Lord's first advent.

[savedbygrace]

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Lets not forget this scripture precedes the prophecies of the 69 weeks. The 70th week must be included in the end time prophecies, and the Lord cannot return outside of the 70th week. This is the same 'week' in which the AC commits the abomination of desolation in the temple, and the Great Tribulation then begins, ending with the return of the Lord.

For instance, in the view expressed in the original post, we should not expect to see the second coming of Jesus at the end of the 69 weeks, in Sept 2015, if that discludes the 70th week. According to the scripture the 70th week is required to anoint the Most Holy one.

However, if our theory includes the 70th week within the time frame prior to September 2015, then it would be more synonymous with scripture. That is why I put more weight on the 49 years since the six day war. The year of Jubilee possibly being Yom Kippur, Sept 2015 . The 70th week would be included this way.

[Mttw633]

I've read that the punishment inflicted on Israel and Judah were increased by their disobedience (initial years in Ezekiel then multiplied by 7). This explains the lapse in time for the restoration of the two houses of Israel and all prophecy to be fulfilled. Also Charlie Garret's discovery of a 14000 day punishment (wonderful1.com) allots for the time period from June 7, 1967 to October 4, 2005 ((Feast of Trumpets) and what I think is the start date of the last seven). The # of days in Daniel 12:11-12 then correspond with feast days when you use the start date of 10/4/2005. For example the abomination date is Passover 2009, if the ac should get his mortal wound the day after and then arising three days later it lands on Orthodox Easter 2009. Adding the 1290 + 1260 (# of days of ac's reign) and it lands on Day of Atonement. Day 1335 is Shavuot 2009.

[Sue-M]

I am totally confused. Anyone else or is it just me?

[Pretzelogical]

---Is their a chart/diagram of the parallel fulfillments of this? (Slow learner here; trying to keep up! Need info in a format that I can share with others.)
---What was the dream?
---Still street preaching...perhaps another thread on that?
---Yes, I read somewhere the calculations of Jesus birth based on the rotation schedule of priests when Zacharias was serving in the temple. (Sorry I have not yet found it again.) The date was during the Feast of Tabernacles when all Jewish males would have to be in Jerusalem. On the first day of the Feast when Jesus was born, and also on the last day of the Feast when Jesus was dedicated at the temple with two witnesses proclaiming Him the Messiah! What perfect timing! No coincidence Simeon was watching for Him! No wonder there was no room for them in the inn. What an awesome God we serve!

[SueAnn]

I am totally confused. Anyone else or is it just me?

I am lounging in the confused corner with Sue M.

Sue M is visiting here briefly but I actually pay rent and live here.

[El Gallo]

Fascinating thread. I believe though that the point was not to refute the fulfillment of the 62 weeks at the time Jesus came/died/arose, but that it is a double fulfillment, which is of course a classic aspect of Biblical prophecy (many double fulfillments).

Second, if our brother has discovered something true and significant, we can not forget it is about a Muslim conqueror of Jerusalem, and the Jews ceded control of Jerusalem to the gentiles until 1967 -- except for the all important Temple Mount, which the Muslims still control. Every prominent photo of Jerusalem has, dead center, the blasphemous Dome of the Rock, which has as the most prominent inscription around the inside of the Dome: "God has no son." Well that seems some pretty interesting coincidence.

As to which Feast of Trumpets will feature the Rapture, I would never guess specifically, but can predict generally.
I always find it curious that Paul said the Rapture would come "at the last trumpet." The only explicit multiple trumpets written about in prophecy are seven trumpets in Revelation. After the sixth trumpet, and before the seventh trumpet, the scripture makes it clear God's plan is fulfilled and wrath is about to begin. So it seems pretty clear the seventh trumpet is more significant than any other event in Revelation and, ahem, is also the last trumpet. Btw, Hal Lindsey discovered the Jewish histories said that during the time in the wilderness, Moses would announce coming movement of the entire camp by a series of seven trumpet blasts, spaced so that the Hebrews knew the seventh, or last, was the "let's go" command. Hmmm.

[good4u]

Yes, ladies I know, all our biblical prophecy "techies" chattering away and for those who are not, it is darn hard to keep up and understand! When all is said and done just remember we WILL know when we are in the 70th week and God is faithful and finish strong. Everything else is just bonus points....

[momma9]

I'm confused too.
Trying not to feel too stupid as I read all this.
Numbers, dates, calculators...ahhhh!

[Broken warrior]

I'm confused too.
Trying not to feel too stupid as I read all this.
Numbers, dates, calculators...ahhhh!

Numbers dates and calculators OHHH MYY

I am slowely moving out of the confused corner

[mabell28]

While this is mathematical fun and thus it intrigues me, personally I don't like the thread for the following:

YeshElsm stated:

September 28th, 2015 (The return of King Jesus)

...and then you went on to state that you weren't really date setting....sorry, you were and you did.

Yes, we are to keep watch...but signs abound without having to get into the math...signs that require no math...simple signs...but the very elect will be deceived.

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

It doesn't say;

"if ye take a calendar, do thee some fancy math, thou wilt have a secret nobody else has, not even Jesus"

Michael

[1whowaits]

Yeshelsm, again there are several factors that argue against the double fulfillment of Dan 9. First of all, the 70 weeks are for Israel, not the muslims (70 sevens are decreed for your people..). Prior to Jesus the 7 + 62 weeks were fulfilled with the Jews rebuilding Jerusalem. In your theory the muslims are those that rebuild Jerusalem and the walls, prior to 1967, and this was not for Israel.

Also the 70 sevens are a specific amount of time that has not been completely fulfilled yet. 70 sevens are the limits placed on this time, not 69 sevens and the another 69 sevens and then 1 seven, it does not make sense of the initial statement of the 70 sevens.

It is clear that a specific period of time is set aside for Israel for certain things to be accomplished, and that time is limited to 70 weeks. To accomodate your theory we would have to add additional weeks.

Also there are certain events associated with the 62 and 7 sevens which you discard, such as the Anoionted one being cut off, which are directly associated with the 69 weeks. If there is a double fulfillement we can't pick and choose which parts should be fulfilled and which we can ignore, it is still part of the prophecy.

And again in your theory the sequence is out of order, the 7 sevens are supposed to come before the 62 sevens and not after, again you 'adjust' the statements is scripture which would argue against a double fulfillment, if there were a double fulfillment we wouldn't have to make 'adjustments'.

And again in your theory there are not 70 weeks but 69, if the 2015 date is used.

I understand your reasoning, but the theory does not appear to fit the scripture, we have to move things around a bit and ignore some other things to make the theory work.

But i would agree with your basic concept that there are 7 x 7 years after June 1967. I believe the calculation of the year of Jubilee is a bit more straightforward and we don't have the extra baggage of trying to fit the weeks of Daniel 9 in. And the timeframe works out the same, it fits with the 2015 date quite well and begins on the Day of Atonement.

I believe the inital video with Pastor Biltz had a note page in which the days between June 1967 and Sept 2015 were added up and it did demonstrate that forty nine (360 day) years was the result, which would be consistent with the calculation of the Year of Jubilee. Isa 61 appears to associate the 'Year of the Lord's favor', which appears to be the Year of Jubilee from the passage, with the 'day of vengeance', which appears to be associated with armageddon in Isa 63 (the day of vengeance when the grapes are trampled).

It would appear that scripture associates armageddon with the Year of Jubilee. And based on the calculation of the Year of Jubilee, 7 x 7 Sabath years or 49 (360 day) years following 1967, theoretically the year of Jubilee and armageddon could begin in Sept of 2015.

Which would be the same date that Pastor Biltz arrives at in his theory. The Year of Jubilee calculation might be a little less complicated than trying to look for double fulfillment of Daniel 9, and the same date is arrived at.

And it appears that that date may be significant.

[Mttw633]

While I don't ascribe to Mark Biltz's date/eclipse theory, I support the fact in which we will know, those who are watching. The verse:

Matthew 24

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour[f] your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

know:
G1492
εἴδω
eidō
i'-do
A primary verb; used only in certain past tenses, the others being borrowed from the equivalent, G3700 and G3708; properly to see (literally or figuratively); by implication (in the perfect only) to know: - be aware, behold, X can (+ not tell), consider, (have) known (-ledge), look (on), perceive, see, be sure, tell, understand, wist, wot. Compare G3700.

This clearly shows that the verb is used only in certain past tense-not future.

[mabell28]

Ahh...one of those that confuses without explaining...I have not a clue what you are trying to say.

Just to simplify:

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,[e] but My Father only.

[Mttw633]

I apologize if it's not clear-the verb is only used in past tense-it's not used in the future. Does that make sense?

Let me add this, Rev 3:3

Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come for you.

There are two camps mentioned in that verse: asleep and awake. Asleep are disobedient, awake are repentant and obedient. Asleep will not know when Messiah returns, conversley I think we are to equate that with meaning awake will know.

Please note the verb is different for know: it's not the past tense only-
G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
ghin-oce'-ko
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

[Mttw633]

I shouldn't say that awake is mentioned in that verse specifically, but we can gleen the opposite from that verse.

[mabell28]

As I said, I don't disagree that God said to stay awake, my whole point is the original poster stated a date and year.

[Mttw633]

I don't think it is wrong to state a date or year-only if you are correct. Sadly, we have seen the incorrect ones.
God saw fit for us to figure out the dates here:
*Daniel's 70 -7's
*more specificall the last 7: Daniel 12:11-12

Dan 12:11 And from the time4480, 6256 that the daily8548 sacrifice shall be taken away,5493 and the abomination8251 that maketh desolate8074 set up,5414 there shall be a thousand505 two hundred3967 and ninety8673 days.3117
Dan 12:12 Blessed835 is he that waiteth,2442 and cometh5060 to the thousand505 three7969 hundred3967 and five2568 and thirty7970 days.3117

These are down to the number of days specifically for the last 7. Most importantly, in verse 12 it says blessed is he that waiteth (which means you'd have to be watching) and comes to the 1335 days.

Don't you think that God wants us to specifically be watching down to the day as stated by verse 12?

[savedbygrace]

Don't you think that God wants us to specifically be watching down to the day as stated by verse 12?

Yes, I do. I think God wants us to be watching, down to the last day. But all of the other things must happen first in Daniel's revelation of the end times before the last day comes. Including the AoD, the rise of the antichrist, the mark of the beast, and the war against the saints. To predict the 'last day' or the rapture prior to these other things is getting the scriptures out of order. Otherwise, the scriptures would not say 'blessed is he who waits until the end of the 1335 days'.

[Mttw633]

I guess that's where we part ways, I'm waiting for day 1335, and any day after that if you're waiting there's a caution:

Amos 5:18
(King James Version)

18Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.

I think that's why there is this blessing,(they miss the blessing of day 1335) besides Daniel 12:12
Revelation 14:13
(King James Version)


13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

[Sue-M]

Here's something to think about. Jesus said that He would cut the time short. So, maybe that's why we know the season and maybe can even give an estimate of the likely day, but, we will never know the exact day, because, Jesus will cut it short. I don't know, something I have been wondering about.

Now, I hope that He cuts it real short. Like tomorrow!

[Mttw633]

I've thought about that too, but it is the 70th week and it cannot be cut short. (70 7's have been decreed for your people...)The only cutting short is for the elect only; ie rapture.

[savedbygrace]

Well we all have a little different opinion on the timing of things, but thats ok, I think we are in agreement the church will be taken or protected prior to the Day of the Lord's wrath. Whether that comes at the 1335 days, or whether it is prior to that is where the debate arises...

And I definitely don't desire to see the wrath of the Lord, that is a day none should desire according to scripture because it will be a terrible day of judgment and destruction. We are all longing for the day of our deliverance, do you agree? I am not sure exactly what day that would be in regard to Daniel 12:11-12, but I tend to believe the extra 30 and 45 days extend beyond the 70th week's ending. That is debatable also.

I think we should be looking for the return of our Lord, and we can know the season for that to occur, but not the day or the hour necessarily. The days will be cut short yes, but we do not know if it will be cut short from the 70th week, or to the end of the 70th week. If the time were not cut short no flesh would survive, but it has been cut short to the time of 1260 days for the sake of the elect. We do not know for certain which way it is intended.

Blessings

[Mttw633]

I think we should be looking for the return of our Lord, and we can know the season for that to occur, but not the day or the hour necessarily.

I apologize beforehand because I don't know how to say this via this medium without it sounding brash, but that goes against His Word. (see above post about verb eido being used in certain past tense only)

So you don't agree with the words in verse Daniel 12:11-12?

These are down to the number of days specifically for the last 7. Most importantly, in verse 12 it says blessed is he that waiteth (which means you'd have to be watching) and comes to the 1335 days.

Don't you think that God wants us to specifically be watching down to the day as stated by verse 12?

So I'm going to ask again, and I don't want this to just be to you, because I'm sure 95% of the people out there believe as you do, Don't you think that God wants us to specifically be watching down to the day as stated by verse 12?

[Sozoed]

Hi joshua,
I am a little confused by our western/gregorian calendar versus the Jewish calendar. My calendar says that Rosh HaShana is Sept. 29th this year, and that Yom Kippur is Oct.9th. Does this vary at all from what the Jewish calendar states?