Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

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Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:59 pm

We are discussing on another thread regarding Revelation 12 and there were a few times that the question popped up regarding the constellation signficance of the symbolism in that chapter.

For all you star-gazers out there, this would be a field day for you.

The reason why I suddenly decided to start this thread, is because I just read about 30 minutes ago that the center of the galaxy is called fondly as "The Mouth of the Serpent" which bareas to much resemblance to Revelation 12:4. I did some research and seems that there is some significance in the Mayan Prophecy regarding this Mouth of the Serpent that makes the year 2012 so famous.

Of particular note also, is that because of certain theories that I hold, I did a back calculation from 23 Sept 2015 (Yom Kippur) and minus 3.5 years (1260 days) and found that it lands smack in the midst Passover 2012 (11 April 2012). Is there anything particularly of note in the constellations (especially if it is related to Revelation 12 symbolism) on that particular day or there abouts?

The other date that I am interested about is 23 Sept 2015...

So 3 things
1) What you think is the significance of the symbolism. Any particular dates that might be of significance? That should be the thrust of the discussion
2) The Mayan Calendar and the signifance of the Mouth of the Serpent and has anything in 11 April 2012 and 21 Dec 2012 that can be noted in the skies
3) On a personal interest - 23 Sept 2015 (Yom Kippur) exactly 49 years from 16 June 1967, when the Jews reclaimed Jerusalem as their own.

Thanks for all the help.

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:27 pm

Interesting stuff KA,

I was just thinking of how and WHY Rev 12 would speak not only of FUTURE but of THINGS PAST. Of course you probably know I believe the woman in Rev 12: 1 represents Eve.

Now here's the thing, I've also thought of the sun, moon and twelves stars as a representation of TIME and specifically TIME of making PROMISE by God to Eve and the FULFILLMENT of that PROMISE.

In Rev 12 (twelve itself speaks of TIME) The PROMISED........SEED........comes also from one of the twelve as we all know...........12 speaks of PROMISE and 12 speaks of TIME.........IN.........Revelation....12......12.......12.........12

Great post KA
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:16 pm

KA, there are those of us who have discussed this topic on the board in years past. The Milky Way Galaxy has, from the time of the ancients, been pictured as a large serpent encircling the earth, the Orobouros, with its head pictured as swallowing or close to its tail.

The center of the galaxy has an triangular area of gases that appears as a darkened area, known as the dark rift. As seen from earth behind this dark rift is the center of the galaxy which is believed to consist of a gigantic black hole.

The dark rift, in the picture of the serpent, is the open mouth of the serpent. The dark rift is also the place at which the winter solstice sun will be over the point where the galactic equator (the midline of the galaxy) crosses the plane of the ecliptic, the plane the planets travel in, on Dec 21, 2012. So on Dec 21,2012, the sun(Son) will be over (crushing) the head of the serpent (Satan), which could correspond to the first prophecy of Genesis.

The Mayans appear to have believed that at the time of the next cycle of the sun in 2012, their serpent god Quetzequatal, would return. They also appear to have believed that the area of the dark rift, i believe they called it the tree, was the doorway to the underworld, or the abyss.

In Rev 9 an angel falls, is cast down from heaven to earth, and opens the abyss. From the abyss will come smoke and demonic beings which will darken the sun. Rev 12 describes signs in the heavens and Satan being cast down to the earth prior to the midpoint of the week. Satan is referred to as the dragon-'that ancient serpent', who spews from his mouth a flood to destroy Israel.

Putting this together theoretically, the serpent can be Satan and also a reference to the Orobouros, the serpent of the Milky Way Galaxy. The center of the galaxy, a gigantic black hole, could be viewed as a bottomless pit, and it could be considered an abyss. If demonic beings were released from that abyss they would cover the sun on their way to earth, if the sun were between the earth and the mouth of the serpent, as it will be in 2012. And the release of the demonic being could be seen as something coming from the mouth of the serpent, an alien force that could be used against men, a force sent to destroy Israel.

Satan may know the approximate time he will be cast down to earth, he will know that his time is short so apparently he has some knowledge of the event. And if he has some knowledge of the time of the event, he is likely preparing for that time, and preparing the earth for that event. The Mayans may have been influenced by Satan and the time they point to may be the time that Satan knows he will be cast down. Satan may appear as the 'god of forces' of Daniel, the one who gives the AC power to conquer fortresses, and his power to conquer could refer to the forces under his control.

The earth does appear to be undergoing a preparation for the arrival of something out of the ordianry, the arrival of some alien being would not be a surprise but an expected event. 2012 appears to be a date that the the heathen are pointing to as a time of change and devastation, and perhaps arrival. Rev 12 points to Satan being cast down, not necessarily at the midpoint but sometime prior to the midpoint, prior to the 3.5 years when Israel is protected in the wilderness. So 2012 could be a date of some event, but not necessarily the type of event the heathen are expecting.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:27 pm

Hey KA, my last reading of chapter 12 has me thinking that it is a constellation and alignment of the cosmos. The 12 stars above her head. She being clothed in the sun, and the moon under her feet. It is possible that Israel will accept Jesus Christ as their messiah when this alignment occurs. Fascinating chapter.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:34 am

WOW!

Good stuff everybody!
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:58 am

Hi 1whowaits,

What I want to know, is does this constellation of Virgo clothed with the sun, and 12 stars above her head, and the moon at her feet, and Draco (the dragon) poised before her, occur only in the Fall, around the Feast of Trumpets? And does it occur every Feast of Trumpets? Or is it a rare occurrence?

Do you, or anyone know?
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:12 am

Because, if this is not a rare occurrence, I'm just wondering if it might be a clue as to the timing, but not necessarily the year?

However, if it is a rare occurrence, would you by any chance know when the next time is, that it is scheduled to happen?

Just wondering? :dunno:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:02 am

watching, according to the guy at Biblical Astronomy this 'sign' of the woman is not rare but occurs every year during the fall, it could occur before, during or just after the fall feasts, so it could point to some events occurring during the fall around the appointed feasts.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:38 am

1whowaits wrote:watching, according to the guy at Biblical Astronomy this 'sign' of the woman is not rare but occurs every year during the fall, it could occur before, during or just after the fall feasts, so it could point to some events occurring during the fall around the appointed feasts.


Every year, every twelve months, Revelation 12 (twelve speaks of time). Good reason to see why Revelation speaks of TIME past as well as TIME future.

IMO
:blessyou: all
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:31 pm

The interesting thing is that Rev does not come out and directly say this event will occur during the fall of the year, one would have to know some astronomy. And Rev also does this in other places, the 7th seal is a description of an ritual only performed on the day of Atonement, one would have to know the temple rituals to see that. After the 7th trumpet the temple is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen, an event that on earth only occurred during the day of Atonement, one would have to know what happened on the DOA to see that also. It may be that the timing of events in Rev are a bit hidden, but they are there, we just have to know where to look or what to be looking for.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Sun Oct 03, 2010 6:49 pm

1whowaits wrote: After the 7th trumpet the temple is opened and the ark of the covenant is seen, an event that on earth only occurred during the day of Atonement, one would have to know what happened on the DOA to see that also. It may be that the timing of events in Rev are a bit hidden, but they are there, we just have to know where to look or what to be looking for.


Look at this comparison 1whowaits,

take a look at this.............................Rev....11:19..19:11...Rev....................................
...........then the temple of God was opened in heaven....Now I saw heaven opened...................

Now let's look at some other parallels between Rev chapter 11 and Rev chapter 19

Rev 11
vs15 Loud voices in heaven
vs19 Ref to servants the prophets, the saints and those who fear His Name.
vs19 Sound of thundering
vs16-18 Twenty four elders saying "You have taken Your power and You have reigned"
vs19 Mention of the Ark of the Testimony

Notice how the Ark of the Testimony is seen when the temple was opened in heaven

Rev 19
vs1 loud voices in heaven
vs5 Ref to his servants and those who fear Him both small and great
vs6 Thundering
vs1and 6 The Lord Omnipotent reigns
vs10 Testimony of Jesus mentioned twice in this verse

Notice how the testimony of Jesus is mentioned immediately before heaven is opened in the very next verse

And remember Rev 12 imediatly following the above refs. in Rev 11.........very interesting I think

:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:53 pm

ST, i would agree that the 7th trumpet, Rev 11, and the 7th bowl are both describing the same event, armageddon pictured in Rev 16 and 19. I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls run somewhat in parallel, they may begin at different points but they all end at the same event, the thunder, lightning, etc. And Rev 12 would then be describing events that occur during the latter half of the 70th week.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:22 am

1whowaits wrote:ST, i would agree that the 7th trumpet, Rev 11, and the 7th bowl are both describing the same event, armageddon pictured in Rev 16 and 19. I believe the seals, trumpets and bowls run somewhat in parallel, they may begin at different points but they all end at the same event, the thunder, lightning, etc. And Rev 12 would then be describing events that occur during the latter half of the 70th week.


Hi 1whowaits,

We differ about the bowls and the trumpets running parrallel though. The bowls of wrath IMO occur sometime during the final 30 or 45 days and God's wrath starts and finishes during those days at some point.

The earthquakes during the trumpets are not nearly as severe as that described during God's bowls of wrath, I beleive scripture is very clear on that.
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The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:35 pm

ST, i would agree that the bowls occur toward the end while the trumpets cover a longer period of time, but at the end the 6th and 7th trumpets and bowls do appear to describe the same events, which has been noted by several prophecy authors. And it would be more logical that the lightning, thunder, etc that follows each set of the seals, trumpets and bowls are describing the same event rather than 3 different events.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:26 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, i would agree that the bowls occur toward the end while the trumpets cover a longer period of time, but at the end the 6th and 7th trumpets and bowls do appear to describe the same events, which has been noted by several prophecy authors. And it would be more logical that the lightning, thunder, etc that follows each set of the seals, trumpets and bowls are describing the same event rather than 3 different events.


1whowaits,

The mentions of any events associated with the seals and trumps simply can't compare to the severity of those of the bowls of God's wrath. there are many people that make these comparisons and determine them as the same, but i disagree, you will need to provide the details that you feel make them the same.

I agree that the earthquake of the sixth seal is the same as when the seventh trumpet sounds though.

:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:44 pm

ST, one must look only at the context to see the similarity between the time of the 7th trumpet and the time of the 7th bowl.

At the 7th trumpet the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of Christ, this only occurs when Jesus returns at armageddon and defeats Satan, Satan is considered the ruler of this world prior to that time. The 7th trumpet describes the nations being angry and God's wrath coming, which occurs at armageddon. Also described is the time for rewarding the prophets and saints, which would occur when Jesus returns. And the 7th trumpet then mentions an event that occurred only on the Day of Atonement and the describes the thunder, lightning, etc.

The 7th bowl occurs as the armies gather for armageddon, and Jesus states that He is coming like a thief, pointing to His coming as described in Matt 24. And the thunder, lightning, etc are described as they are at the 7th trumpet. The time periods of the 7th trumpet and the 7th bowl would appear to be the same, it is the time of Christ's return and armageddon.

The earthquakes of the 7th trumpet and bowl appear to be the same earthquake. Both are described as severe, and at the 7th trumpet a tenth of the city collapses while at the 7th bowl the city is split into 3 parts, similar levels of destruction.

And at the 7th trumpet the 'great city' is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, (the city can be called by other names associated with evil and captivity) and is then identified as Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified, while at the 7th bowl the 'great city' is called Babylon. And when one reviews the chracteristices of Babylon noted in Rev 17, the city that rules the world, 'Babylon the great' is most consistent with Jerusalem, it would appear that a figurative name associated with evil is again used.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:52 pm

1whowaits,
I'm familiar with the similarities, and the timing is very close. Close is the key here, being gathered at Armegedon is the key here, the rewards, the Kingdom, all are key.

They are all keys to understanding the timing of the gathering........AT.......THE......SEVENTH......TRUMPET :banana:

The bowls of God's wrath occur only within the 75 days that follow.......that's why they are very similar......the ungodly are being gathered probably AT the seventh trump and the events to follow happen so close together.

The last ........and GREATEST earthquake is just what it is described as.......THE.......GREASTEST......EVER.

A tenth of the city?..................EVERY ISLAND MOVED OUT OF THEIR PLACES...........NOT..........ONE........MOUNTAIN.........TO........BE..............FOUND............................................................................ANYWHERE :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: NOW THAT'S THE GREATEST!!!!!!!

Much, MUCH GREATER than one that causes a TENTH of A CITY to fall.

:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:05 am

1whowaits wrote:watching, according to the guy at Biblical Astronomy this 'sign' of the woman is not rare but occurs every year during the fall, it could occur before, during or just after the fall feasts, so it could point to some events occurring during the fall around the appointed feasts.


Hi 1whowaits,

Do we know anything about the dragon when this sign occurs?

Does it have seven heads, or not?

And does it have any stars or crowns or anything on it's heads?

Because, if it doesn't, then maybe this constellation is not a match for Revelation 12.

Because it seems to me that the details regarding the dragon would also have to match, as well as the details regarding the woman.

What do you think?
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:13 pm

watching wrote:
1whowaits wrote:watching, according to the guy at Biblical Astronomy this 'sign' of the woman is not rare but occurs every year during the fall, it could occur before, during or just after the fall feasts, so it could point to some events occurring during the fall around the appointed feasts.


Hi 1whowaits,

Do we know anything about the dragon when this sign occurs?

Does it have seven heads, or not?

And does it have any stars or crowns or anything on it's heads?

Because, if it doesn't, then maybe this constellation is not a match for Revelation 12.

Because it seems to me that the details regarding the dragon would also have to match, as well as the details regarding the woman.

What do you think?


Good questions, watching. I think it should be... and of late, I think Chapter 12 is an amazing chapter which is trying to tell us important things with timings...

The Red Dragon with 7 heads and 10 crowns... have been doing some study... possible candidates are

1) the constellation Hydra which extends through one third of the zodiac. Just above the Hydra are the constellations Corax with 7 stars corresponding to 7 heads, and Crater with 10 stars corresponding to 10 horns, or 10 dorsal fins.

2) constellation Serpens (Caput and Cauda connected with ten stars). The seven heads would be the constellation Corona (crown) Borealis which consists of 7 stars. This serpent is right at the feet of the constellation Virgo and Hercules. The Archangel Michael would be the constellation Hercules waiting to make war with the serpent

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Feasts/Def_RoshHashanah.htm

Any stargazers out there that see anything in the up-coming falls (especially around Rosh Hashanah and up to 2015 if you can check) that might fit?

Blessings,
KA
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:57 pm

watching, st, actually the Hydra would be more consistent with the multiheaded beast, or perhaps it could be the dragon. Cetus the sea monster also could be depicted as a dragon. The Biblical Astronomy site associates the constellation draco with the dragon pictured in Rev 12 because draco (the dragon) appears to be cast down to earth as the constellation dips below the horizon.

The constellation of the 'woman' actually does not look like a woman, it is an arrangement of stars, the woman is how it has been pictured from antiquity. It is believed that although man has corrupted the meaning of the constellation signs over the years, originally the constellations were named by God and pictured the redemption story. It appears from the Biblical Astronomy site that the woman and the dragon are the original depictions of these constellations, as far as we can tell.

The woman is the woman, does the woman wear a dress or have jewelery or have blue eyes? The dragon is the dragon, does the dragon have 1 head or multiple heads or big teeth? The point is moot, it depends on who draws them. The importance would be the sign, the woman does have a time when the moon is beneath her feet, when the sun is over the constellation, and the 12 stars would appear to be a reference to the 12 constellations of the 'path', the zodiac (each of the 12 tribes are associated with 1 of the 12 constellations of the zodiac, which may be what Joseph saw in his vision).

The dragon is not noted for how it looks, it could be pictured in different ways but it is still the dragon, the importance could be what it does, it falls to earth.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:32 am

Hi 1whowaits,

The reason I asked about Draco the Dragon, is because, if he does not have seven heads, or ten horns or any crowns, then the constellation of Virgo clothed with the sun and the moon at her feet that occurs around the Feast of Trumpets, may, or may not, be reminiscent of Revelation 12.

But, either way, if it occurs every Feast of Trumpets, then it would only be an indication of the time of year, and not an actual year.

However, if this sign appears to have seven heads, ten horns, and seven crowns, on a certain year only, or on a very rare occasion, then it would be more plausible that this constellation might be related to Revelation 12, in a much more tangible way. Because, as Douggg has noted in another thread, these features appear to put a time stamp on the dragon. So it would stand to reason that the seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns would not appear every time. Otherwise, if they did show up every time, then it seems as though this sign would just be a more generic sign pointing to a time of year, and not an actual year.

Another thing that I'm wondering is if this sign actually does, in fact, only occur on the Feast of Trumpets, or not, because, I'm finding it hard to understand the chronology, if that is the case. It just doesn't seem to fit with my understanding of what might be a possible time line, in relation to the point in which it is mentioned in the book of Revelation. But that is all I'm going to say about that, because I don't want to speculate.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:23 pm

Just found 2 very interesting articles on the topic of Draco

http://www.fivedoves.com/ac/kevinh1212.htm

comments - usually I am not a fan of fivedoves but this one seems very legit

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread497554/pg2

comments - click on the video that says start at around 3:08.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:43 pm

This is all new to me... so I may be posting things that are so un-interesting... here is another one

http://www.scripturescholar.com/ApocalypseKey.htm

Comment: seems to be Catholic. but there is a date...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:31 pm

KA, very interesting find, thanks.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:56 am

1whowaits wrote:KA, very interesting find, thanks.


I am glad you found it interesting. To me it is all Greek actually... anything that you agree or disagree?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:19 pm

KA, i find it interesting that the last site places Venus (the morning star associated with Jesus) in the constellation Virgo (the woman) at the time of this sign. Ths Biblical Astronomy site has this also. While the sign of the woman with the sun and the moon occurs every year, i can't find how often Venus is in this constellation during the fall, this could narrow the timeframe of this sign somewhat, depending on how often this occurs.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:34 am

1whowaits, I got the answer to this one

1whowaits wrote:While the sign of the woman with the sun and the moon occurs every year, i can't find how often Venus is in this constellation during the fall, this could narrow the timeframe of this sign somewhat, depending on how often this occurs.


This is what I got from Yahoo! Answers

It happens approximately every 1.6 years. Venus will enter Virgo on October 19, leave on December 12. It will next enter Virgo on 2011 September 9, leaving on October 14.
Source(s):
Starry Night software.

I am terrible with Maths but that does not seem like 1.6 years to me though...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:36 pm

KA, any dates for Venus in Virgo for 2012?
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:22 pm

Don't know but this may be interesting...

on June 8,2004 Venus made a rare transit over the disk of the Sun as seen from Earth. A similar transit will occur June 6, 2012. The next one after that will be December 11, 2117, and December 8, 2125.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:34 am

Keeping Alert wrote:Don't know but this may be interesting...

on June 8,2004 Venus made a rare transit over the disk of the Sun as seen from Earth. A similar transit will occur June 6, 2012. The next one after that will be December 11, 2117, and December 8, 2125.


Hi KA,

Interesting that the two intervals are EIGHT years apart (the number of COVENANT and PROMISE).

:blessyou:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:19 pm

KA, the interesting thing about Venus being part of this 'sign' is that the sign can continue on for a period of time. The constellation having the sun over it and the moon under it may occur for 1 night or 2, but Venus being within the constellation could continue for several days or weeks.

The time of the end is associated with the conflict between the woman and her seed and the serpent, which is pictured in the sign of Rev 12. The time prior to the AOD is called the beginning of birthpangs with the conclusion that the birthpangs end when Jesus returns. The time is also called the time of Jacob's trouble and is compared to a woman in labor, the labor ceases when the woman is 'delievered', and Jacob will be delivered when Jesus returns at armageddon.

The sign of Rev 12 appears to be associated with the feast of trumpets, the sun is in the constellation and the moon below the constellation, identifying the woman in labor, Israel. But Venus, the morning star associated with Jesus, could remain in the constellation for several days until it exits the constellation, the child leaves the woman, the woman is delivered of the man child (Venus).

I would theorize that it may be possible that this could be the 'sign of the Son of Man' when Jesus returns, the birthpangs end when the child is delivered, when Venus exits the constellation Virgo Jesus returns and armageddon begins. The sign could begin on the feast of Trumpets when He will be seen in the clouds and all the earth mourns (the sun is in the constellation and the moon is under the constellation), and then 10 days or so later He sets foot on the earth on the Day of Atonement, when the birthpangs end, when the woman is delivered, when Venus exits the constellation Virgo. So one might wonder when Venus is in the constellation Virgo during the fall feasts of the next 7-10 years, just thinkin'.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby extravagantchristian on Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:51 pm

I think I had a dream about the sign of the Son of Man. I dunno why cause I probably won't live to see it, nor will most of us, but all I can say is that what I saw in my dream was so unnerving, it was more terrifying than anything I could ever describe. It was so huge and light up with all kinds of lights, with things swiriling around in it. It was literally like the size of a small planet coming to earth and in my dream, it was dark and got closer and closer and everyone somehow knew that it was Jesus and that when He got here it was all over but the cryin. And that it was to late to do anything about it. It was so dreadful I cant even explain it. Nothing on earth could ever be so scary because, there was a sense of Holiness and fear and understanding and supernatural and no movie could ever portray it.

I think I had the dream when I was little, but didn't remember it until one night a few years ago I was reading Matthew 24:30 about the sign of the Son of man, then I had a flashback to the dream and it all hit me like a ton of bricks. Just remembering the dream was like an out of body experience.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:21 am

extravagantchristian wrote:I think I had a dream about the sign of the Son of Man. I dunno why cause I probably won't live to see it, nor will most of us, but all I can say is that what I saw in my dream was so unnerving, it was more terrifying than anything I could ever describe. It was so huge and light up with all kinds of lights, with things swiriling around in it. It was literally like the size of a small planet coming to earth and in my dream, it was dark and got closer and closer and everyone somehow knew that it was Jesus and that when He got here it was all over but the cryin. And that it was to late to do anything about it. It was so dreadful I cant even explain it. Nothing on earth could ever be so scary because, there was a sense of Holiness and fear and understanding and supernatural and no movie could ever portray it.

I think I had the dream when I was little, but didn't remember it until one night a few years ago I was reading Matthew 24:30 about the sign of the Son of man, then I had a flashback to the dream and it all hit me like a ton of bricks. Just remembering the dream was like an out of body experience.


I wonder if it's what Ezekiel saw, a wheel within a wheel. Maybe.

I've heard so much talk lately about UFO stuff, It wouldn't surprise me if "they, the fallen angels and their OFFSPRING" have counterfitted the real deal. They even suggested on one of the progams that "aliens" are the true creators of life and will return to give us "help" and teach us.

It will be the great dellusion God sends.

But those of us who truly love the Lord will know.

:blessyou:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:59 pm

This exploration into biblical astronomy is really interesting

Thought I would bump this up with a new question

Is it possible that the first 4 seals of Revelation constellation signs too?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

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Father, glorify thy name.

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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby learningeachday on Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:58 pm

Hi all! I hope you don't mind my jumping in here. I don't post often in the debate area, but I do love to drop in and read! :mrgreen: This thread is VERY interesting and reminded me of something I watched about a year ago. Perhaps it will be of some help to those of you looking at the constellations.

Below is the "Daniel's Timeline" presentation by Dewey Bruton. The presentation is quite long, and it has been discussed here at FP several times (and fwiw, a few board members have found some glaring flaws in this presentation). My intention is not to bring that discussion back up, but rather to point you toward Bruton's interpretation of what he believes to be constellation information put forth in Revelation 12.

He says that the constellation references--the particular, specific alignment--made in Rev 12:1-5 will occur over Jerusalem on March 2, 2013, at 5:58 am. He shows pictures of what these constellations will look like on this date, too.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

If you want to watch just the portion of the video that talks about this constellation alignment, load the entire video and drag the little arrow to almost 3/4 the way through (sorry, there is no time marker given). It's just following the lengthy calendar discussion, so if you see calendars, you're very close.

http://www.waytozion.org/video/stream/t ... eline.html

I have no idea if this will be helpful to anyone here :dunno: , but thought I'd post it just in case... :bag:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:24 am

Hi learningeachday,

Thanks for posting the above video.

Actually, since I couldn't fast forward the video that you posted to three quarters of the way, I just searched on youtube for Dewey Bruton and started watching the videos from about the 7th of 12 videos.

The part about the constellation was in the ninth video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9lxROtSPXw&feature=related

Anyway, at this point, I don't know what to believe; whether this sign only occurs around the Fall Feasts, as has been asserted in this thread, according to another website, or if this sign can occur at other times, such as around Passover, as has been asserted in the video you just posted.

In any case, if this constellation does occur on Passover, then that would explain how it could occur at the beginning of a 3 1/2 year period in which the end of it would occur during the Fall Feasts. Because the only other way that this sign could occur at the beginning of a three and a half year period, with the beginning of it being in the Fall, and then the Fall Feasts occur during the end of a 3 1/2 year period, would be if there were two 3 1/2 year periods. However, THIS IS ALL HYPOTHETICALLY SPEAKING, of course.

Nevertheless, I would have to agree with the fact that there are glaring errors in the theory being presented in this video.

The most glaring, to me, though, aside from the fact that the presenter of this video switches from 62 weeks being weeks of years, to 7 weeks being only 7 years, is that he kept referring to a time period which, according to my calculations, would amount to 15 days, as being 45 days.
:humm:

There were also other less noticeable mistakes, such as the fact that he quoted Revelation 12:6 as Revelation 12:16, among other misquotes.

So, you have to wonder, whether all of these mistakes were just oversights, or whether he was doing what he himself said you shouldn't do, and that is to try and force fit things into place. :dunno:

Nevertheless, I do find a lot of what he said intriguing, and have for a long time; even before I saw this video (or at least parts of it) for the first time, when it had previously come up in this forum, because at the time I was actually beginning to see some of the patterns for myself, such as what appear to be jubilee patterns. However, I, nevertheless, do not agree with everything in this video, obviously.

Although, it does have a lot of interesting information in it.

So, once again, thank for posting it, learningeachday. :a2:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:24 pm

KA, as far as the 4 horsemen being pictured in the stars, Sagittarius is pictured as an archer on a white horse which would be consistent with the first seal. The red horse associated with war might be seen as Aries or mars, Aries is occasionally pictured as riding a horse. Libra is associated with the scales, but not a horse that i know of. The black horse ????

As far as the sign of the woman occurring during the spring, Virgo is a constellation on the path of the sun aka the zodiac. There are 12 constellations on the zodiac and it takes a year for the sun to traverse all 12 constellations. The sun is in Virgo only during the fall, it cannot cut across the sky and deviate from its path to do it in the spring also, so by basic astronomy the theory above cannot be correct.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:11 am

Thanks, 1whowaits

btw, I just got the answer for the dates that Venus is in Virgo

2010-Sep-01 13 22 53.70 -11 59 46.6 Vir
2010-Oct-01 14 29 58.48 -21 42 56.7 Lib
2010-Nov-01 13 57 40.56 -17 45 43.2 Vir
2010-Dec-01 13 54 24.65 -10 22 49.4 Vir

2011-Oct-01 13 13 45.39 -06 47 19.7 Vir

2012-Nov-01 12 17 14.94 -00 07 41.4 Vir

2013-Sep-01 13 05 45.72 -07 07 09.7 Vir

2014-Oct-01 12 06 41.91 +00 49 36.9 Vir

2015-Dec-01 13 35 29.88 -07 38 13.2 Vir

2016-Sep-01 12 09 26.46 +00 07 20.5 Vir

2017-Nov-01 13 22 16.91 -07 03 23.7 Vir

2018-Sep-01 13 21 10.74 -12 00 41.1 Vir
2018-Oct-01 14 21 46.89 -21 19 23.3 Vir
2018-Nov-01 13 42 45.60 -16 08 56.9 Vir
2018-Dec-01 13 49 14.06 -09 47 36.2 Vir

2019-Oct-01 13 15 48.53 -07 01 24.5 Vir

2020-Nov-01 12 19 01.25 -00 18 34.0 Vir

Calculated using JPL's HORIZONS system

Source(s):

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi...


Totally Greek to me but it probably means something to you :grin:

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:07 pm

Hi Keeping Alert,

(Your link is not working.) Nevertheless, just going by what you have posted, I must say that I find your findings to be remarkable.
:wow:

It appears there are 4 occurrences in 2010; one in each month from September through December.

Then there are 4 again in 2018; one in each month from September through December.

So, it appears, these sets of 4 occurrences in 2010 and 2018, seem to bookend the seven years of 2011 through 2017, which, apparently, only have one occurrence in the Fall for each year.

Very interesting. :thinking:
......................................................................................................................................

Incidentally, t's also interesting how Psalm 110, from where we get the following quote:

Psalm 110:1
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


.........which was repeated by our Lord in:

Matthew 22:44 (King James Version)
The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?


Mark 12:36 (King James Version)
For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luke 20:42-43 (King James Version)

42And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

43Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


..........and Psalm 118, from where we get the following quote:

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.


..........which was repeated by our Lord in:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


Mark 12:10
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:


Luke 20:17
And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?


............seem to book end Psalms 111 through 117.

And although Psalms 113 through 118 are known as the Hallel Psalms in Juduaism,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallel

.............it's interesting, as has been observed by JR Church and others,


how Psalms 111, 112, and 113 begin with Hallelujah (Praise the Lord). Psalm 113 also ends with Praise the Lord.

There are no Hallelujahs in Psalm 114.

And Psalms 115, 116, and 117 all end with Hallelujah (Praise the Lord). Psalm 117 also begins with Praise the Lord.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1984&t=KJV&page=3

So, basically, you could say, that there is sort of a Menorah design, or a mirror image in Psalms 111 through 117, which seems to point to Psalm 114, which, incidentally, has no Hallelujah.

Interesting. :thinking:

(I couldn't find JR's article, or I would have just posted a link to that. In any case, you may want to search for it, if you're not already familiar with it.)
...........................................................................................................................

Btw, just to be clear, I am not saying that Psalms 110 through 118, necessarily. correlate with the years 2010 through 2018, or not, of course. Because I don't know if they do, or not.

I'm just saying that there seem to be interesting patterns concerning both.

What that means exactly, I don't know. :dunno:

But I thought I should at least point out what seems to be an interesting pattern, or coincidence, for anyone who might be interested.

......................................................................................................................

In any case, great find Keeping Alert! :hugs:

(Hope you can get that link to work.)
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:10 pm

Wait a minute.

I just noticed, one of those was in Libra, not in Virgo. :doh:

Maybe I should just scratch everything I just posted.

:bag:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:51 pm

Hi Watching,

I got this answer by asking a question on Yahoo! Answers. And I did notice that one odd Venus in Libra. Unfortunately, I did not know how to operate the functions provided at the link to check the results. The link is

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi

If you or anyone knows how to operate the link to get the answers, you could check if it was a typo error or really only 3 incidences of Venus in Virgo.

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:26 pm

Hi Keeping Alert,

It's not likely that I will be able to figure it out.


It's all Greek to me too...........

............. and I happen to be Greek. :cheeky:


Maybe 1whowaits could give it a try.

:dunno:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:36 pm

watching, i was just thinking that as Israel will be delivered when Jesus returns, the woman (Virgo) delivers the child (Venus), and Jesus returns at the fall feasts, if there is a year in which Venus is in Virgo at the time of the fall feasts, we could have a possible year of delivery, after looking at the dates you listed 2019 might work (which could place the beginning of the 7 years at the end of 2012, interesting considering what is being stated about 2012).
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:43 am

Hi 1whowaits,

I am not the one who posted the above dates. They were posted by Keeping Alert.

So, to begin with, I am not even sure if I can trust those dates; since I do not know anything about astronomy, and since neither I, nor Keeping Alert, know how to operate the website from where they supposedly came.

Secondly, I find it peculiar that all of these occurrences seem to be on the first of the month of various months during the fall.

I cant' figure out why that is. Why would every time that Venus is in Virgo be on the first of a certain month on the Gregorian Calendar?

I realize that our calendar is solar based, but it's not as though there are different phases of the sun that would all land on the first of the month every time, is there?

Doesn't the sun just spin continuously until it makes a complete revolution in approx. 365 days?

And it's not as though the days of the month are always equal, i.e. some months have 30 days, some months have 31 days, and February has 28 or 29 days depending on whether it is a leap year.

So, I just don't understand why Venus would be in Virgo precisely on the first of the month on the Gregorian calendar, of various months in the Fall, every time that happens.

Do you?

:idgi6:


Also, btw, just to be clear, I'm not sure if the woman represents Israel, or not......or just Israel, or not. To be honest, I really don't know FOR CERTAIN who the woman represents. :dunno:


And lastly , I sure hope it doesn't take that long.:faint:

In any event, I'm looking up NOW.

:praise:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:15 am

watching wrote:And lastly , I sure hope it doesn't take that long.

:a3: :faint:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:01 pm

watching, KA, i am not sure about the dates either, i am just theorizing about the significance of the sign. The woman who gave birth to the male child that rules was Mary, and by extension Israel, and by further extension Eve. But was Mary or Israel or Eve protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days in the past? Can they be protected in the future? Only Israel can be protected in the wilderness in the future, the only woman that fits the entire descriptuion is Israel.

The sign of the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet is timed to the fall feasts, specifically the feast of Trumpets. It is believed by some that Jesus was born on the feast of Tabernacles, others the feast of trumepts, so the male child would have been delivered during the fall feasts.

I believe the sign in Rev 12 is not only indicating who the woman is but also the time of her delivery. In the past the delivery appears to have been during the fall feasts. The future of Israel is pictured as a woman in labor who is delivered so that the future delivery will likely occur during the fall feasts. As this sign recurs every year the time of the year can be known but not the approximate year itself. But add the presence of venus to the sign and an approximate year could be estimated. Venus could have been the star in the east, His star, that was seen at His birth. At His first coming the 'star' could have been associated with the sign of the woman (Rev 12 may be indicating that), and His 2nd coming may be associated with His 'star' and the woman.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby shorttribber on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:25 pm

1whowaits wrote:watching, KA, i am not sure about the dates either, i am just theorizing about the significance of the sign. The woman who gave birth to the male child that rules was Mary, and by extension Israel, and by further extension Eve. But was Mary or Israel or Eve protected in the wilderness for 1,260 days in the past? Can they be protected in the future? Only Israel can be protected in the wilderness in the future, the only woman that fits the entire descriptuion is Israel.


1whowaits,

The inclusion of Eve and Mary with Israel is acurate I believe. I have pointed out in other posts that the "Woman" was "Fed" by God and Christ during the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad IMO and the "Woman" will be "Protected" during the future deliverance.

Remember, the "Woman" is.............the "FROM MAN". From Man came Eve, From man came Israel, From Man came Mary and From Man came the SON OF MAN.........(the MANchild)..........the SEED of the first FROM MAN.

:goodnight:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby watching on Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:40 am

Keeping Alert wrote:Thanks, 1whowaits

btw, I just got the answer for the dates that Venus is in Virgo

2010-Sep-01 13 22 53.70 -11 59 46.6 Vir
2010-Oct-01 14 29 58.48 -21 42 56.7 Lib
2010-Nov-01 13 57 40.56 -17 45 43.2 Vir
2010-Dec-01 13 54 24.65 -10 22 49.4 Vir

2011-Oct-01 13 13 45.39 -06 47 19.7 Vir

2012-Nov-01 12 17 14.94 -00 07 41.4 Vir

2013-Sep-01 13 05 45.72 -07 07 09.7 Vir

2014-Oct-01 12 06 41.91 +00 49 36.9 Vir

2015-Dec-01 13 35 29.88 -07 38 13.2 Vir

2016-Sep-01 12 09 26.46 +00 07 20.5 Vir

2017-Nov-01 13 22 16.91 -07 03 23.7 Vir

2018-Sep-01 13 21 10.74 -12 00 41.1 Vir
2018-Oct-01 14 21 46.89 -21 19 23.3 Vir
2018-Nov-01 13 42 45.60 -16 08 56.9 Vir
2018-Dec-01 13 49 14.06 -09 47 36.2 Vir

2019-Oct-01 13 15 48.53 -07 01 24.5 Vir

2020-Nov-01 12 19 01.25 -00 18 34.0 Vir

Calculated using JPL's HORIZONS system

Source(s):

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/horizons.cgi...


Totally Greek to me but it probably means something to you :grin:

Blessings,
KA


Hi Keeping Alert and 1whowaits,

If I'm understanding correctly, it appears the above chart was correct about November 1st.

Just found this on another website:

DANGEROUS BEAUTY: As November begins, Venus is passing almost directly between Earth and the sun, an event astronomers call "inferior conjunction." The view through a telescope is both beautiful and dangerous. Henry Mendt of Maracaibo, Venezuela, took this daylight picture of Venus only 7o from the blinding sun on Oct. 31st:

http://www.spaceweather.com/archive.php?view=1&day=01&month=11&year=2010

Also, based on the above chart, and from what I have read about precession of the equinoxes, it appears the the sun may still be in Virgo at this point, but I'm not sure.

Maybe one of you could verify.

Anyway, just thought you might like to know. :wink:
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:46 pm

http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi100.htm

Not too sure about this too... but might as well put it out for those who might makes some sense out of it....
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Revelation 12 Constellation Consideration

Postby 1whowaits on Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:21 pm

KA, if you are reading this, i believe there might be another part to the sign of Rev 12, there could be a reference to a conjunction of Venus and Jupiter as part of the sign. I tried the JPL site but didn't know how to work it, could you check to see if there is a conjuction of Jupiter and Venus in 2019 (i believe there is) and does the conjuction occur in Leo? thanks
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