Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

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Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 05, 2009 9:08 pm

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

What is the Oil and Wine?

Some say it is just that...oil and wine.
Some say it is the church.

Which is it?

Joe 2:24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

In this context, this is the restoration of their land, but is it their land that He speaks of here?
Could it be symbolic of them, Israel, as a people...their faith, the congregation?

An offering with olive oil was a sweet savour unto the Lord. An offering without oil was not pleasant to the Lord, for it represented sin laid bare before His judgment. The priests were to receive the best of the oil, wine, and wheat, Numbers 18:12. Corn, wine, and oil, are symbolic of all the physical blessings God gives His people; Deuteronomy 7:13, 11:14, 12:17, 14:23, 18:4. Asher, one of the twelve tribes of Israel, was to be "blessed with children; let him be acceptable to his brethren, and let him dip his foot in oil," Deuteronomy 33:24.

Or what about this?

Psa 60:3 Thou hast shewed thy people hard things: thou hast made us to drink the wine of astonishment.
Isa 25:6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.

Isaiah appears to be pointing to Joel 2:24 for interpretation as well with the " fats/vats shall overflow with wine and oil."

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Our Lord appears to be very consistent with what He asserts as to the characters of wine and oil.

Faith, belief, circumscised in heart.

Psa 23:5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Psa 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like [the horn of] an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

This appears to be very consistent with the sealing of the 144K, and their preservation during these times, aligning this seal with the trumpets, further confirming my thoughts on the seals, trumpets and bowls all occurring in parallel.

Let's talk about it.
Last edited by IamtheWalrus on Wed May 06, 2009 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Wed May 06, 2009 9:57 am

I have been thinking about this quite a bit lately. I am starting to think the barly and wheat could mean the rapture. I do not believe it relates to a famine because at this point in Rev everything is spiritual. Do not harm the oil and wine are also defined in the Bible as being anointing oil and the wine of Gods wrath. I believe the oil could be the 144K who are marked and cannot be harmed at this point, and the wine is everyone else left to go through the great trib.
The Barley and Wheat are harvested early in the season, the grapes are harvested in the fall. We cant harm the grapes until its time to make the wine, or the full wrath of God at the end of the great trib. The 144K need to be marked because the Holy Spirit is removed with the rapture, and the marking on the 144K is a special marking to keep them seperate from the grapes.
Just thoughts, what do you think?
I also think the second seal is about to be opened and we will see war with Israel involved against Iran (Brother against Brother)
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Keeping Alert on Thu May 07, 2009 4:43 pm

IamtheWalrus wrote:Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


Hi Walrus,

Interesting poser.

Considered the various options but came to this conclusion -

If the verse did not mention, wheat and barley which was linked with a price, I would say that the spiritual meaning can be in view. But because it is there, then from the context it seems to me that the meaning intended is literal.

Blessings,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby lamb7 on Thu May 07, 2009 7:07 pm

Meaning that the basic necessities of life will be so over-priced, as is stated in the verse and if that is the case...don't even think about the "oil & wine", the price is not mentioned because it will be moot to even consider you will be able to afford it. Most will only be surviving just enough to eat and even that will be a very difficult task. I'm sure the meaning is much more far-reaching, but that is the basic gist I get from it.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Sat May 09, 2009 9:27 am

Maybe we should start with the scales the rider is holding. Scales are defined in the Bible in a few ways. They will be used to judge, and you will not want to be found wanting.
--Once Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit, something like scales fell from his eyes and this allowed him to see again. He got up and was baptized (Act 9:17). In this context, scales were bad and kept Saul wanting, it can be pride, greed, power hungry, whatever. The great merchants of the world use dishonest scales.
I believe the rider with the scales is an evil rider. We know the first 4 riders are evil because only bad comes from them riding. If an evil rider with scales rides, we can assume the good people, God's people, will be on the receiving end of the scales (unfairness, deceitfulness, possibly killing).
With barley and wheat representing Gods people (Christians and Jews), and a cup for a penny (I believe the term used signifies a quarter of a penny) or three cups for a penny, we can assume they are not worth anything to the rider, and have been harvested.
We know the fifth seal we see the souls that have been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
If the third seal is the killing of Jews and Christians, the fourth seal must be mass killings of non Christians and Jews. Since Death and Hades was following close behind rider number 4, it is a logical assumption. Why would there be mass killings of non Christians and Jews? Maybe there is still a large # of non Christians and Jews who will not go along with the one world order plan, or possibly we see some mass wars (they are killed with sword, famine, plague, and wild beasts of the earth).
I do believe the riders are all defined spiritually in the rest of the Bible, and need to be looked at in a spiritual sense.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby lamb7 on Sat May 09, 2009 10:40 am

What do you think of this interpretation:

3. The Black Horse: Economic Constraint

Revelation 6:5-6:

And when He (i.e., the Lamb) opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come and see!" And I looked, and behold, [there was] a black horse, and the one who was sitting upon it had scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the middle of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of flour for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and don't [even] trouble [yourself over] the oil and the wine".


The black horse symbolizes the trend of extreme economic controls, scarcity and constraint. As in the case of the second horseman, so also here a goodly portion of the hardship described will result from the series of aggressive wars and internal dislocations represented by the first two seals. This active interference in all aspects of economic activity will be one of the key means which will be employed by antichrist to tighten his grip on power (through strict controls on all spheres of commerce) and also to earmark the lion's share of production for the exclusive use of his followers (as a means of reward). The notorious extension of this strategy in the Tribulation's second half to religious persecution is well-known (Rev.13:16-18).

As the color associated with starvation, black is most fitting to symbolize the trend of scarcity represented by the third horseman (Job 30:30; Lam.4:8-9; 5:10; cf. Is.50:3). By any estimate, the prices quoted here are extreme. The ratio of the value of barley to wheat is consistent with what we know of ancient pricing, but the prices themselves indicate that the average employed person of that time will need all of his/her income for subsistence. A denarius represents the standard day's pay for a working man (cf. Matt.20:2), but a quart/liter/choinix of milled flour (roughly the equivalent in nutritive value to three times its weight in unprocessed barley) will barely suffice for an individual, let alone a family. Therefore we are to see in these prophetic words control of wages and control of prices, limiting radically (and artificially) the consumption of all who are not on antichrist's "team". The phrase "and see thou hurt not the oil and wine" [KJV – most versions similar] is often misunderstood. The command is directed to the prospective buyer (not to the horseman), and suggests that, for the average person who is not part of antichrist's privileged few, anything beyond the most basic and essential staples will be priced out of reach (cf. Prov.21:17), so much so that there will not even be any need to be on the lookout for a "good price", because they will never be in range (as long as antichrist's kingdom endures).

It must also be said here that the black horse is not mere dearth, but control by design of production, prices, distribution, capital, etc. Although famine has always been with us on this planet, and its intensification is indeed a sign and a characteristic of the Tribulation (Matt.24:7), the trend depicted here is, once again, a "man-made" one, an outrageous and untenable economic situation brought on by antichrist's policies. For just as communist and fascist regimes "redistribute wealth" upon ascension to power (i.e., engage in theft on an almost unimaginable scale), so it will be in case of antichrist, and we fully expect his activities to surpass even the horrendous historical examples of the past hundred years (cf. Dan.11:24; 11:39).

Therefore the "scales" in the hand of the third horseman are a weapon of economic control and torment equivalent to the first horseman's bow (for accomplishing devious conquests) and the second horseman's sword (for fomenting internal insurrection). This deliberate and artificial system of rationing and price controls will no doubt seem appealing to many at first, but it will soon promote horrendous scarcity for all but the rich and privileged followers of antichrist (cf. Lev.26:26; 2Kng.7:1; Ezek.4:16).
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sat May 09, 2009 12:43 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:
If the verse did not mention, wheat and barley which was linked with a price, I would say that the spiritual meaning can be in view. But because it is there, then from the context it seems to me that the meaning intended is literal.

Blessings,
KA


KA,

Good thoughts, however, we must never forget that symbols can be found in types, yet never types within symbols, and regardless of what we are looking at, the literal application is always there. God wrote the Bible, and He used many of peoples lives to develop types most always pointing to His Son Jesus, and many of their lives, things, places and such be of symbolic representation, whether it is applied literally or not. Here it is obvious that the reference is pointing to the literal OIL and WINE, however, from what we see throughout scripture, God has revealed us the inwardly interpretation to them.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Sat May 09, 2009 4:36 pm

Lets focus more on the original question. If the interpretation is literal, why does it say do not harm them? Thats makes no sense at all if we take this literal. Oil and Wine I believe are the spiritual meanings, which would make sense.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Sat May 09, 2009 5:17 pm

dolfseal wrote:Lets focus more on the original question. If the interpretation is literal, why does it say do not harm them? Thats makes no sense at all if we take this literal. Oil and Wine I believe are the spiritual meanings, which would make sense.


I agree...the obvious implication is symbolic.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sat May 09, 2009 6:55 pm

Do not hurt the Oil or Wine.....


The Oil....
Anointing. oil.....The Anointing, The anointed....with Oil
The oil, the light,
Anointed with the Holy Spirit...
Wine...
The Blood
The Blood of Jesus
The Lambs blood

Hurt not the oil or the wine...

Hurt not those anointed with oil...and washed in the blood of the lamb....the wine...

We are Kept...hurt not the oil and the wine..

we are not under wrath....or judgment

Rev. 7:3....Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till
We have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads...

Rev. 6:6b....and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine...

Eph. 1:13....In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom Also after that ye believed,
YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,

14/Which is the earnest of Our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his Glory....

In the OT they were anointed with Oil
We today are sealed or anointed with the Oil.....The Holy Spirit....

We are anointed with the oil the Holy Spirit....and the wine the blood of Jesus....

Rev. 2:7,11,17,....He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.....



bb
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sat May 09, 2009 6:58 pm

Do not hurt the Oil or Wine.....


The Oil....
Anointing. oil.....The Anointing, The anointed....with Oil
The oil, the light,
Anointed with the Holy Spirit...
Wine...
The Blood
The Blood of Jesus
The Lambs blood

Hurt not the oil or the wine...

Hurt not those anointed with oil...and washed in the blood of the lamb....the wine...

We are Kept...hurt not the oil and the wine..

we are not under wrath....or judgment

Rev. 7:3....Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till
We have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads...

Rev. 6:6b....and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine...

Eph. 1:13....In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom Also after that ye believed,
YE WERE SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,

14/Which is the earnest of Our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of his Glory....

In the OT they were anointed with Oil
We today are sealed or anointed with the Oil.....The Holy Spirit....

We are anointed with the oil the Holy Spirit....and the wine the blood of Jesus....

Rev. 2:7,11,17,....He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.....



bb
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Sat May 09, 2009 7:26 pm

ok,
If we use the oil and wine in the context of the anointed, why is everything harmed except the oil and wine. This does not compute with the rest of the third seal. If the third seal is talking about a famine, are we to assume everyone except the Christians are affected by the famine?
What if the anointed are the 144K that were sealed by God, and what if the wine (as in the wine of God's wrath) are the poor souls that will be crushed in Gods winepress. Does the third seal now make sense? Assuming Barley and Wheat are Christians. If barley and wheat are just barley and wheat, then oil and wine as the anointed makes no sense also.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sat May 09, 2009 7:55 pm

Jesus said.....Faith and Patience...

Israel was kept in the wilderness.....God fed them

So we the Born Again are to Live by Faith.....Our Faith and Trust

We must trust that God is Able to Keep us....
Just like he did Israel.......He is the same....today

John was in the isle that is called Patmos....

Rev. 1:9....I John who ALSO Am your brother, and COMPANION IN TRIBULATION....,
and in the Kingdom and PATIENCE...of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos,

why?
for the word of God, and for the Testimony of Jesus Christ.....

John was in the isle for his testimoney.......yet God Kept Him...

So some of us will be tried with fire.....and maybe even unto death...
but that is Our Glory.....that we would be counted worthy to suffer....and maybe even die...for the Kingdom's sake

But....by our Faith he will keep us.....
He will not let us be tempted or tested more then we are able to bare....But with the Temptaion make a way of escape....

Hurt not the Oil and the Wine.....

We will be Kept......Our Faith will be Tested...but this is a purifying....making us ready to be a Witness for Jesus...

What can Hurt Us?

Jesus said...I will never leave your nor forsake you...
He that endureth to the end shall be saved....
Pray that you be able to escape the things that are coming on the Earth...

We are in the world....but we are not of this world.......Our Home is Heaven
We are only Pilgrims, passing through...

Eph. 5:1....Be ye therefore followers of God, as Dear Children;

2....And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet smelling savour......


This is why.....He said....Hurt Not the Oil nor the wine...
I believe.....A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny..
and hurt not the oil and the wine...

This is when the mark will be instituted.....
and Jesus is saying hurt not the Oil nor the wine....
The Anointed ones...and those washed in the blood of the Wine...
we by our Faith will be Kept....

bb
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Sun May 10, 2009 8:49 am

Mrs B
All valid points but I still think this is meant for the other context of the symbolism. When you say "we will all be kept to witness for Jesus", are you saying we will go through the trib period, or are you just referring to the first 3.5 years, or possibly you are going off of the pre wrath mind set? Which brings up a good question, how is the "wrath" defined. If there is a rapture before the wrath, and the wrath does not start until the very end, then we will all go through the persecution of the saints. We will refuse the mark of the beast and be killed or jailed. This can all be done and not go through "God's Wrath". Being killed for Christ's testimony is not a wrath. Wrath is described as hiding in rocks and wishing to be dead but not being able to die, among many other horrible events.

I think the wine refers to this:
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Mon May 11, 2009 8:57 pm

The oil and wine are symbolic of the healing powers of the Lord’s Spirit and His atoning blood. In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the Samaritan [representative of Christ] heals with oil and wine. The Lord has taught his disciples to anoint with oil in their healing blessings. “And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them.” [Mark 6:13] Jesus used wine to represent His atoning blood.

......Do not hurt the healing of the Holy Spirit.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Mon May 11, 2009 9:20 pm

Do we go from literal (Barley and Wheat), to symbolic (oil and wine) in one sentence? I think we don't, which leads me to ask, then what is the barley and wheat, if oil and wine are healing powers of the Lords Spirit?
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Tue May 12, 2009 11:06 am

Do not hurt the Oil or Wine...

The thought comes to me the parable Jesus taught....

The Ten Virgins...
Five were Wise
and five were foolish...

Five took oil in their vessels with their lamps..

while the other five...
took their lamps, and took no oil with them..

The Oil....the Anointing...Kept the Wise

but the foolish had no oil.....
Lord Lord, open to us...

But he answered and said,
Verily I say unto you, I Know ye not...


The Oil represents Anointing Oil...The Holy Spirit

But he Jesus answered and said,
Verily I Say unto you.....I KNOW YOU NOT...

Watch therefore, for ye know neither day nor the hour wherein the Son of Man Cometh..

Hurt not the Oil and the Wine...


bb
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby AF4Liberty on Tue May 12, 2009 12:42 pm

I always take it literally unless there is some clear reason that says not too.

Economic Turmoil
- Inflation will cause the basic necessities of life, such as food, to be extremely expensive
- The scales of balance have been tilted, where some can afford, but others barely survive
-- Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day (This means they can barely afford food), while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people

- A cry not to damage oil
-- The world is utterly dependant on oil today; world’s most important commodity
-- Became critically important near WWII
--- WW II, oil facilities were a major strategic asset and were extensively bombed
-- Until the mid-1950s, coal was still the world's foremost fuel, but oil quickly took over
-- Today, we've seen that oil has caused wars, and if something endangers oil, the world is affected economically

- A cry not to damage wine
-- Globally alcohol consumption has increased in recent decades
-- Europe is leading alcohol consumer
--- Past 3 years, increase 6%

Seems to make sense, but hard to tell.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 12, 2009 1:07 pm

Mar 14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
Mar 14:25 "Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 12, 2009 1:32 pm

dolfseal wrote:Do we go from literal (Barley and Wheat), to symbolic (oil and wine) in one sentence? I think we don't, which leads me to ask, then what is the barley and wheat, if oil and wine are healing powers of the Lords Spirit?


They are the church, apostate or not. The oil and wine is the anointing spirit.
Last edited by IamtheWalrus on Tue May 12, 2009 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 12, 2009 1:34 pm

AF4Liberty wrote:
Seems to make sense, but hard to tell.


Welcome to the board friend...I see your reasoning as I have believed before, but it is wrong IMO.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Tue May 12, 2009 2:35 pm

IamtheWalrus,
Would you consider the following referrence to wine the annointing Spirit?

REV 14:
"17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

I would like to put together the full verse of the oil and wine in everyones meaning. I think we have maybe 3 different complete meanings being kicked around.
I think it refers to barley and wheat being those filled with the Holy Spirit, being shown as worthless to the rider (persecution). The wine are those saved for the winepress(do not hurt them with this rider), and the oil(being the 144K sealed for God) not being hurt.
What is your complete take on the verse? (everyone)
We have picked apart the individual parts but does it make sense when you put your complete interpretation together?
(ie why would the christians not be harmed in an economic collapse or a famine and everyone else would)
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 12, 2009 2:42 pm

dolfseal wrote:IamtheWalrus,
Would you consider the following referrence to wine the annointing Spirit?

REV 14:
"17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."

I would like to put together the full verse of the oil and wine in everyones meaning. I think we have maybe 3 different complete meanings being kicked around.
I think it refers to barley and wheat being those filled with the Holy Spirit, being shown as worthless to the rider (persecution). The wine are those saved for the winepress(do not hurt them with this rider), and the oil(being the 144K sealed for God) not being hurt.
What is your complete take on the verse? (everyone)
We have picked apart the individual parts but does it make sense when you put your complete interpretation together?
(ie why would the christians not be harmed in an economic collapse or a famine and everyone else would)


The winepress and grapes are not the wine my friend.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Tue May 12, 2009 2:43 pm

Because we are kept......by our faith

Read I Corinthians 10:1-13
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Tue May 12, 2009 6:08 pm

Thanks for the scripture ref MrsB. I would still like to hear your complete take on the scripture in question though.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 12, 2009 7:47 pm

I would like to put together the full verse of the oil and wine in everyones meaning.


Wine and oil were offered to God at His command as part of the prescribed ritual (Exodus 29:40).

Exo 29:40 and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb.
Exo 29:41 "The other lamb you shall offer at twilight, and shall offer with it the same grain offering and the same drink offering as in the morning, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the LORD.
Exo 29:42 "It shall be a continual burnt offering throughout your generations at the doorway of the tent of meeting before the LORD, where I will meet with you, to speak to you there.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby 1whowaits on Tue May 12, 2009 8:15 pm

sometimes oil is just oil and wine is just ethanol (ETOH). If the 3rd seal is to be fulfilled soon, economic collapse would cause the price of food to skyrocket, as well as that of petroleum and ethanol derived from grain (the global warming nuts don't just go away because the economy collapses, everyone will still have to use ethanol even if it starves them to death).
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue May 12, 2009 8:18 pm

wine is just ethanol
:humm:
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Tue May 12, 2009 9:07 pm

1whowaits wrote:sometimes oil is just oil and wine is just ethanol (ETOH). If the 3rd seal is to be fulfilled soon, economic collapse would cause the price of food to skyrocket, as well as that of petroleum and ethanol derived from grain (the global warming nuts don't just go away because the economy collapses, everyone will still have to use ethanol even if it starves them to death).


I am sorry 1WW, but you are incorrect. Scripture never had in mind the fuel we use today or the thousands of cabernets in the dept store. If they did, then why do we read about bucklers and shields? A solely literal point of view...sigh.
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Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby 1whowaits on Tue May 12, 2009 9:12 pm

yes, wine is at its basic chemical structure ethanol (ETOH), alcohol, and there are alcohol beverages derived from grain. The wine=alcohol=ethanol=grain derived fuel in the present day. In times of war, if oil cannot be accessed, ethanol will be substituted.

Walrus, you do not seem to get the concept that prophetic writers can describe what they see in the future in terms of what they can relate to in their own day. Also God is a bit more imaginative, not everything is explained in simple terms, you have to think about it, hence the mystery.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby dolfseal on Wed May 13, 2009 6:58 am

Abiding,
That was the scripture I was looking for. God required grain (flour), wine (as a drink offering), and oil, for a soothing aroma, an offering by FIRE to the Lord". This kinda describes the end times.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby IamtheWalrus on Wed May 13, 2009 8:34 am

.................and what does the "grain (flour), wine (as a drink offering), and oil, for a soothing aroma, an offering by FIRE to the Lord". " represent?

1WW, I never underestimate the power and depth to the word of God and its unbelievable accuracy, but to say that the oil represents fuel and the wine is just wine, is going beyond the message into a realm that only a modern human can fathom. This message is to be understood by all generations. You are choosing what is to be symbolic and what is not. Let scripture do that for you. And it has. These end times prophecies have already happened several times over as types......High priest Onias III (AEIV), Caiaphas...Annas (Jesus)....Phannias (Vespian)....Listen everybody, the Bible does not describe Black Hawk helicopters or Nuclear War.

It describes what the readers of the time, and now, would understand. Something which is centered around the mercy of God and His love. This is a relationship we have with Him and Christ is the center...Christ the center of prophecy and the entire word of God is the faith, the church we see as the representation of God, the light and candlestick for the world, how that candlestick has fallen and will fall, and measuring of the saints. Yes, many prophecies described the outwardly worldly kingdoms, but the focus was not them, but the virginity and harlotry of the church, Judaism then, Christianity now. Only Jesus can wipe the tears away from Mystery Babylon and make her pure, as a virgin...chasting the saints. You are so close to opening the biggest door of your life as a prophecy student.

Folks, did Aaron's sons get struck by a nuke or flaming torch from a ship, or was it fire from God?

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men...... ....

Is this one of those instances or is it God? How about the Gog Magog war? Many say this war is a 21st century war, but what about the descriptions of the weapons, they were of the time? This argument is unbalanced and is based on some hidden secret interpretation that only 21st century readers could understand. A preposterous idea. God is not that way.

Again, God is not secretive and reserved. He is not confusing. He is straightforward.

Daniel sealed, Revelation unsealed.....2000 years ago. That leaves the application of the book to be immune to the technological advances of the last 2 millennia, yet be understood by all saints. Sigh.....shall we engage more?

The oil and wine represent the holy anointing spirit and the wheat and barley represent the church, apostate or not.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Pretzelogical on Fri May 28, 2010 10:36 am

I have been seeing a pattern in scripture:
bread = Jesus = the word made flesh
wine = teachings
oil = power of the Holy Spirit. (enables us to understand and apply the teachings and be healed)

The Word is harmed = apostasy = false teachings = wolves in sheep's clothing = those walking in the light of a polluted oil.
He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Jesus wins through the faithful witness of those who stand firm on the true word that does not have the leaven of the Pharisees/false teachers.

Again, people wanting to buy the free gift of God as did Simon in the books of Acts.

The five foolish virgins, whom the groom NEVER knew, they had light from the oil they purchased. But it didn't last, and they needed to leave the watch to go buy more.
The wise virgins had the pure Holy Spirit oil that did not run out, and had more to spare.
Why didn't the wise share with the fools? Though we have the Holy Spirit, we cannot give it to someone else.

Simon asks Peter to give him the power of the Holy Spirit and vowed to pay for the Holy Spirit. This is the kind of oil the foolish virgins had.
Though the word of God will be twisted, His powerful Holy Spirit will maintain the true teachings in those who measure up. The ONLY way to measure up ( the scales) is to be in Christ who is the word made flesh. It is by His Spirit that we understand and stand firm on the truth/word. We must feed on the word. Scripture says there will be a famine for the word of God.

Amos 8:11
"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord GOD,
"When I will send a famine on the land,
Not a famine for bread or a thirst for water,
But rather for hearing the words of the LORD.

How we will long to hear the word in that day! But we are promised the Holy Spirit will never leave us, and will continue to teach us and empower us. The Holy Spirit will remind us of all that He has taught us. We are to hide His Word in our hearts so that we might not sin against Him.

Scripture says people are saved by the hearing of the word.
Jesus said to witness while there is still light. There is a darkness coming when no one will be saved by the hearing of the word. Today is the day of salvation. May we be faithful to preach the word!
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby extravagantchristian on Fri May 28, 2010 11:55 am

Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and [see] thou hurt not the oil and the wine.


I don't think oil and wine stands for the church. Maybe it means the economy will be hurt, but not completely collapsed. Because as long as the world is still trading oil and wine (it takes fruit to make wine) then that means that world as a whole will still be able to pay their electricity bill in order to have tv and internet, which in my opinion will be needed clear up until the end when the 2 witnesses are killed (just before Jesus returns), because Rev 11 says that when they are killed, the whole world will celebrate, how would the whole world even know when they were dead if it weren't for modern technology? And you can't operate modern technology without power, and you can't pay for the power if the economy completely collapsed. It must still stay in tact in some form or another, and we know that will be the case, due to the mark of the beast, people will still be buying and selling through the GT.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Pretzelogical on Fri May 28, 2010 12:20 pm

Since you asked:
...how would the whole world even know when they (two witnesses) were dead if it weren't for modern technology?


There are those of us who believe the two witnesses are the two churches, Symrna and Philadelphia. Since two women, the harlot vs. bride, represent groups of people who follow false gods vs. the people who believe in Jesus; then it follows to have the two men, the witnesses, represent two groups of people. With these two groups of people all over the world lying dead in the streets, the whole world will cheer.
(See numerous other threads on this.)

Also, it is reasonable to me, to believe that there is technology beyond what we are being told in order to deceive people. Who knows what all they have orbiting this planet that could be used to pull a hoax?! There is thread here somewhere that shows Japan filling their night sky with videos of Godzilla and it looks very real,"cool" and "entertaining". The evil ones could have all major religious figures and space aliens appear to be riding in on the clouds, and then combine into one figure, the AC, who explains all roads lead to heaven, and they will believe he has the power to save them from the world's problems. People will believe their eyes. Today, people worship pictures/images and themselves. It will take faith and the Holy Spirit to not be deceived, for perhaps, people will hear the persuasive words in their own minds. I am thinking it may be like the tower of Babel, uniting everyone to one common purpose - destroying the believers. Attemptiong to destroy all the believers, the temple of God, would be an abomination; an abomination of desolation. Destruction would only be on the wing, as God's people are not appointed unto wrath.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Yogi on Fri May 28, 2010 12:28 pm

Measure of wheat or four measures of barley = a day's food

Penny= a days wages

Food shortages/economic hardship

Luke 10:34- And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Medical treatment continues.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby mark s on Fri May 28, 2010 12:33 pm

Pretzelogical wrote:wine = teachings


It seems to me that there are a large number of Scriptures where "wine" is the stuff you drink. And of course Jesus called upon wine to represent the blood of the New Covenant.

Isn't this another example of choosing a subjective interpretation?

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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby daffodyllady on Fri May 28, 2010 2:45 pm

I guess I took that passage to mean that ... for those at the top, oil and wine would be considered necessities. They would set prices for grains for the starving masses, reserving oil and wine for themselves.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby JayCee on Sat May 29, 2010 3:20 am

I think this prophecy is one of those that we will not know until we are in that time period itself but the explanation from daffodyllady is one I have heard before and that one for me is the one that has 'settled' and stayed with me over the years as the most likely thing to happen.

daffodyllady wrote: ... for those at the top, oil and wine would be considered necessities. They would set prices for grains for the starving masses, reserving oil and wine for themselves.


I can't see it as anything other than a literal interpretation or we are into some dubious exegetical antics.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Pretzelogical on Sat May 29, 2010 8:09 am

I believe there is more than just the literal as scripture is so poetic and consistent throughout the sixty-six books. For example:

Genesis 49
8 "Judah, your brothers shall praise you;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father's sons shall bow down to you.
9 "Judah is a lion's whelp;
From the prey, my son, you have gone up
He couches, he lies down as a lion,
And as a lion, who dares rouse him up?
10 "The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes,
And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.
11 "He ties his foal to the vine,
And his donkey's colt to the choice vine;
He washes his garments in wine,
And his robes in the blood of grapes.
12 "His eyes are dull from wine,
And his teeth white from milk.


Jacob's blessing is far more than the literal. Judah himself never held a scepter, but he had taken the lead to sell Joseph and later said he would be responsible if they did not return Benjamin from Egypt to Jacob. Though Judah had no scepter, he did have a staff and signet ring he left with the "harlot" daughter-in-law whom he had cheated. Obviously he did not live up to the prophecy. Later, the tribe of Judah led in the wilderness march. David, of the tribe of Judah, became king. Of course, Jesus, the King of all kings was from the tribe of Judah and his reign has no end. There are multiple fulfillments in Jacob's statement, yet none of them ever were fulfilled in Judah himself.

verse 11: The donkey will be allowed to eat the best of the grapes because they will be so abundant. Just like Balaam's donkey understood what the false prophet did not. Jesus abundantly showed His wisdom, power and love through his gospel/teachings/good news, yet many chose to continue in their false teachings. At the time of the end, the apostasy of which Jesus spoke will have false teachers, but the true teachings/gospel will be unharmed even though there will be a famine of hearing the word. (Amos 8) The future King of Judah, Jesus, washed his garments in wine - His own redeeming blood.
verse 12: He will not look upon our iniquity.
He will feed, hold and fight (teeth) on the pure milk of the word. (Hebrews 5:13 & 1 Peter 2:2)
Jacob is not on his death bed saying that Judah will be blessed with white teeth. Nor is Jacob saying that we will recognize the Messiah because His teeth will be so white.


Jesus said all scripture speaks of Him, so symbolism is consistent throughout the scriptures.
Exodus 29
38 "Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two one year old lambs each day, continuously.

39 "The one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;

40 and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb.

41 "The other lamb you shall offer at twilight, and shall offer with it the same grain offering and the same drink offering as in the morning, for a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the LORD.


Lamb - we need the blood of the Lamb slain for sinners.
Grain - we are saved by the hearing of the Word and repenting.
Beaten oil - we grieve the Holy Spirit with our sins
Wine - we hold to the gospel teachings
Fire - we are refined through trials
Soothing aroma - assurance of salvation/made acceptable to God
According to the consistent symbolism of scripture, those who are saved by the blood of the Lamb, feed on the word/Bread of Life, and follow the gospel/teachings morning and night. The Holy Spirit convicts believers of their sins and they repent. Obedience through trials assures believers they are truly accepted by God and saved.

Deuteronomy 11
13 "It shall come about, if you listen obediently to my commandments which I am commanding you today, to love the LORD your God and to serve Him with all your heart and all your soul,

14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.


This passage is commonly understood to refer not only to the literal blessings, but also to the harvest of bringing souls to the word (grain)for salvation, teaching them to obey all that Jesus taught (wine), and to walk by the Holy Spirit (oil). This promise will endure and be applied to all believers who obey His commands. At the time of the end, when the apostasy is great, the two witnesses will obey and be blessed ringing in the sheaves.

Psalm 126:6
He who goes to and fro weeping, carrying his bag of seed,
Shall indeed come again with a shout of joy, bringing his sheaves with him.


Zechariah 12:6
"In that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem.


See how Zechariah is describing the same thing the two witnesses will do at the end? Note it is the "clans of Judah" "in that day" that will be like fire. The two witnesses have the Word come out of their mouths like fire to scorch the grain around them. Those grains are consumed because they are not the pure Word, but words of false teachers.

Moses sang of God's vengeance against the false teachings described below:
Deuteronomy 32
32 "For their vine is from the vine of Sodom,
And from the fields of Gomorrah;
Their grapes are grapes of poison,
Their clusters, bitter.
33 "Their wine is the venom of serpents,
And the deadly poison of cobras.


Jacob's people (144,00o) will be given the true Word, the true teachings, and the true Holy Spirit, protected from those who drink in the false teachings/venom of serpents.

Deuteronomy 33:28
" So Israel dwells in security,
The fountain of Jacob secluded,
In a land of grain and new wine;
His heavens also drop down dew.


These examples are just from the writings of Moses. The same consistent use of these items continues throughout the scriptures as when we see Jesus saying that new wine needs to be put into new wineskins. Jesus brought a new gospel/teaching.
Jesus dipped his bread into the cup of wine at the same time as Judas, and Judas was thus purged from their midst.
Our Groom changed water in wine to begin his teaching His gospel.
It is wine (true teachings) and oil (the Holy Spirit) that heal us spiritually as well us physically.
And like Timothy, In order for me to stomach all the false teachings we are fed, I take a little wine (true teachings) with my dinner.

In Hebrews 11:7 we are told that Noah condemned the world because, through faith, he obeyed the word of God and built the ark. Scripture says because people have the Word that was given to Moses, they are condemned by the Word. Jesus, the Word, is coming again to judge. He gave his teachings and is coming to stamp out the grapes of false teachings and to pour out His truth on the world. All we learn that Jesus is LORD when every eye sees Him, and every knee will bow.

The "wine list" I have noticed goes on and on through the scriptures. I have pondered over the times when it is not just a literal wine, but also God's good news that Jesus is come in the flesh. LORD, may we obey Your command to teach in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the new wine in new wineskins. Amen!

Edited to add:
Mark said:
Isn't this another example of choosing a subjective interpretation?


Scripture defines scripture. I have clearly shown scripture defines wine as "teachings" and false teachings are called the venom of serpents and the fatal poison of cobras. I used just a small sampling that is available for examination from the scriptures. If you do not want to examine in this manner, and instead, label this form of investigation of the scriptures as "subjective interpretation", again, that is your choice, still. I enjoy studying the commentaries that agree with me on this, and I enjoy the freedom to express it here with both like-minded and not so like-minded saints of our Gracious LORD. I pray I learn to communicate my thoughts more clearly.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sat May 29, 2010 9:03 am

Do not hurt the Oil or the Wine.....


Oil....when lit with fire.....gives light
We are the Light of the world...
The candlestick in the Old Temple gave off light
We are the seven candlesticks in Rev...the churches
Hurt not the Oil....which represents those that Are Anointed with the Holy Spirit
They are the Light of the World..
They give out light....
Jesus is the Light of the World
When we are born again and filled with His Holy Spirit...
We become the Light of the World..
Those that Keep His Word
Rev, 1:20b...and the candlesticks....which thou sawest are the seven churches
Zech. 4:2....And said unto me, what seest thou?
And I said, I have loked and behold a candlestick all of Gold,
with a Bowl upon the top of it, and His seven lamps thereooon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof...
3...And Two Olive Trees by it......one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upone the left side thereof...
10....For who hath despised the day of small things?
for they shall Rejoice, and Shall See the Plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those Seven;
(Jesus is out of the linage of Zerubbabel)
They are the EYES OF THE LORD, wHICH rUN TO AND FRO THROUGH THE wHOLE EARTH...
This is a Prophsey pertaining to the Church....the seven churches

This is the Churches....they are the eyes of the Lord...
Jesus has given the Church Power....and we have fallen....we have lost our power
buy false teaching and believing lies

11...Then answered I, and said unto him,
What are these Two Olive Trees, upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12...And I answered again, and said unto him,
What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empey the Golden Oil out of themselves?

The olive trees are Israel....the olive branch
on both sides of the candlestick.
and pour out oil..
the anointing......the anointing oil......the fire or light...the fire that gives light.
The anointing of the Holy Spirit.....

14..Then said he, These are the Two Anointed Ones, that stand by the Lord of the Whole Earth...

The Two Witness.......The Olive Tree Israel.....and The Two Witness the Candlestick the Church....



Wine...represents the Blood
Without the shedding of Blood there is not life.
Jesus shedded His Blood on the the cross
and His blood saves all those who believe and Follow Him.
Again....Follow HIM.

Hurt not the Oil or Wine...

Those that are True Believers.....Following Jesus
The Two Witnesses...who witness for 1260 days


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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby SueAnn on Sat May 29, 2010 9:13 am

Once explained, it all becomes absolutely breathtakingly beautiful in its simplicity and design.

Thank you, Mrs B...what a blessing you are to us.
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وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat May 29, 2010 9:18 am

Mrs. B wrote:Hurt not the Oil or Wine...

Those that are True Believers.....Following Jesus
The Two Witnesses...who witness for 1260 days

Mrs. B


Mrs. B, there's just one problem... The true believers WILL be hurt during the GT. Just as surely as Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross. MANY true believers will be killed.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby SueAnn on Sat May 29, 2010 9:33 am

extravagantchristian wrote:
Mrs. B wrote:Hurt not the Oil or Wine...

Those that are True Believers.....Following Jesus
The Two Witnesses...who witness for 1260 days

Mrs. B


Mrs. B, there's just one problem... The true believers WILL be hurt during the GT. Just as surely as Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross. MANY true believers will be killed.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

extravagantchristian, I am wondering if the "hurt" you refer to is only physical. We can be murdered physically, but thanks to Jesus, no evil can befall us spiritually. What do you think?
ﺗﻜﻮﻳﻦ 12
وَقَالَ الرَّبُّ لأَبْرَامَ: «اتْرُكْ أَرْضَكَ وَعَشِيرَتَكَ وَبَيْتَ أَبِيكَ وَاذْهَبْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ الَّتِي أُرِيكَ،
فَأَجْعَلَ مِنْكَ أُمَّةً كَبِيرَةً وَأُبَارِكَكَ وَأُعَظِّمَ اسْمَكَ، وَتَكُونَ بَرَكَةً (لِكَثِيرِينَ).
َأُبَارِكُ مُبَارِكِيكَ وَأَلْعَنُ لاعِنِيكَ، وَتَتَبَارَكُ فِيكَ جَمِيعُ أُمَمِ الأَرْضِ »
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat May 29, 2010 9:34 am

I've noticed several interpretations of the word "wine" in this thread and I list them here to make a point:

wine = teachings

grapes of false teachings

Wine...represents the Blood

It is wine (true teachings)

And like Timothy, In order for me to stomach all the false teachings we are fed, I take a little wine (true teachings) with my dinner.

The same consistent use of these items continues throughout the scriptures as when we see Jesus saying that new wine needs to be put into new wineskins. Jesus brought a new gospel/teaching.

Jesus dipped his bread into the cup of wine at the same time as Judas, and Judas was thus purged from their midst.
Our Groom changed water in wine to begin his teaching His gospel.

The "wine list" I have noticed goes on and on through the scriptures. I have pondered over the times when it is not just a literal wine....


It's true that the word wine is mentioned many times throughout scripture and it's a good thing to examine it's context each time. That's why we cannot make general, subjective assertions that wine always represents one thing. If we hold to the symbolic representation of wine (as true teachings) only, then the following scriptures make no sense as they recommend avoiding too much wine:

It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. Romans 14:21

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit Eph 5:18

Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain.....1Timothy 3:8

Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine...Titus 2:3

That's why each scripture must be examined in it's context to comprehend correctly it's meaning and avoid absolutes regarding their meanings in all scripture. In the above scriptures, wine most certainly represents a liquid drink as opposed to true teachings or blood. This method of exegesis is true not only of the word wine, but all words which may or may not have different shades of meanings.
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sat May 29, 2010 4:52 pm

Do not hurt the Oil or Wine......


satan cannot hurt the Oil......which is the Anointing....
Jesus was Anointed with the Holy Spirit......Ye he became a Living Sacrifice for the world...
But the Anointing or Oil could not be hurt...
The Oil is Spiritual...
Jesus said....My Word is Spirit and it is Life....


Paul tells Timonthy....

I Timothy 5:23.....DRINK NO LONGER WATER.....BUT USE A LITTLE WINE FOR THY STONACH'S SAKE...
And thine Often Infirmities.......

sounds like Timothy had some stomach problems....Today Wine is recomended for many illness..this is proven
by studies, reconizing the good effects wine has.....and is recomended today by Doctors

This is what Paul wrote to Timothy....


Grapes of false teachers....???

Rev. 6:5....And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say...
COME and See. And I beheld, and lo a black horse;
and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand....

6...And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say...
A measure of wheat for a penny,
and three measures of barley for a penny;
AND....See thou HURT NOT the Oil and the Wine....

See thou hurt not the Oil and the Wine...

Just like God fed the Israelites in the wilderness...
He fed them daily....and met all their needs...
So when the economy fails.....and the mark is demanded to buy and sell....
Those who are covered with the wine...the blood of Jesus and the Oil they are Anointed with the Holy Spirit...
you do not hurt.....

We believe God...
Nothing is Impossible when we by Faith Trust Him....


A Voice in the midst of the four beast say...

Jesus is the Voice....He is seated at the right Hand of God and
and when the black horse appears...
the Voice from the midst of the four Beast.....This is in heaven...where the four beast are seen..
a voice says......See thou hurt not the Oil and the Wine...

We will by Faith and Obedience will not be hurt...
We the Oil and the Wine......The True Worshippers....

If Jesus says do not hurt the Oil and the Wine.......the enemy must obey...


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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby mark s on Sat May 29, 2010 10:58 pm

Pretzelogical wrote:
Genesis 49
11 "He ties his foal to the vine,
And his donkey's colt to the choice vine;
He washes his garments in wine,
And his robes in the blood of grapes.


verse 11: The donkey will be allowed to eat the best of the grapes because they will be so abundant. Just like Balaam's donkey understood what the false prophet did not. Jesus abundantly showed His wisdom, power and love through his gospel/teachings/good news, yet many chose to continue in their false teachings. At the time of the end, the apostasy of which Jesus spoke will have false teachers, but the true teachings/gospel will be unharmed even though there will be a famine of hearing the word. (Amos 8) The future King of Judah, Jesus, washed his garments in wine - His own redeeming blood.


Where exactly do you see this verse speaking of Jesus' teaching? Nothing in this verse, or the passage around it speaks of teaching, doctrine, false teaching . . . Yes, his colt is tied to the choice vine, and he has wine and grapes in abundance. But how you connect the this to teaching, I do not see from the passage.

Now, there is a place I can think of where Jesus' robes are red . . . however, not with His Own blood . . .

12 "His eyes are dull from wine,
And his teeth white from milk.


verse 12: He will not look upon our iniquity.
He will feed, hold and fight (teeth) on the pure milk of the word. (Hebrews 5:13 & 1 Peter 2:2)
Jacob is not on his death bed saying that Judah will be blessed with white teeth. Nor is Jacob saying that we will recognize the Messiah because His teeth will be so white.


Are you thinking that Jacob is saying Jesus' eyes will be dull from wine? I don't think that's what this is about . . .

Jesus said all scripture speaks of Him, so symbolism is consistent throughout the scriptures.


Where exactly do you read this? I think you are going a little bit beyond what He was actually saying. There are historical narratives which are about the history of that time. There are prophetic passages which are about particular, specific people and events. Yes, Jesus is throughout Scripture, but that does not give us carte blanche to recast every last word and sentence into something other than what it is actually saying.

Exodus 29
40 and there shall be one-tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with one-fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and one-fourth of a hin of wine for a drink offering with one lamb.


Wine - we hold to the gospel teachings


Yes, we are to hold to the Gospel teachings, however, that statement simply is not contained in the quoted verse. Though you may say that it symbolizes "teaching", and give that meaning to the passage, that's not what the passage itself says, therefore, it remains subjective.

Deuteronomy 11
14 that He will give the rain for your land in its season, the early and late rain, that you may gather in your grain and your new wine and your oil.


This passage is commonly understood to refer not only to the literal blessings, but also to the harvest of bringing souls to the word (grain)for salvation, teaching them to obey all that Jesus taught (wine), and to walk by the Holy Spirit (oil). This promise will endure and be applied to all believers who obey His commands. At the time of the end, when the apostasy is great, the two witnesses will obey and be blessed ringing in the sheaves.


The passage itself speaks of the material blessings promised in the first Covenant. Again, there is nothing in this passage that gives license to interpret "new wine" as anything other than the fruit of the vine. There are other passages which compare the latter rain to the spiritual blessings that would come, however, the fact that an actual seasonal rain is elsewhere used in a symbolic sense does not mean we should comb through the Bible to re-interpret every place that seasonal rain is mentioned as something different.

Deuteronomy 32
32 "For their vine is from the vine of Sodom,
And from the fields of Gomorrah;
Their grapes are grapes of poison,
Their clusters, bitter.
33 "Their wine is the venom of serpents,
And the deadly poison of cobras.



You can read this entire passage and see, nothing in this passage identifies "wine" as "teaching".

Jacob's people (144,00o) will be given the true Word, the true teachings, and the true Holy Spirit, protected from those who drink in the false teachings/venom of serpents.


This thought about "Jacob's people" and those who "drink in the false teaching" in no wise comes from Deut. 32. Its not enough to pluck a phrase from a verse and use that to describe something else, and then, upon that (?) declare that this phrase is symbolic of the something else.

Deuteronomy 33:28
" So Israel dwells in security,
The fountain of Jacob secluded,
In a land of grain and new wine;
His heavens also drop down dew.


One more example that says absolutely nothing about teaching or doctrine. Although it does speak of the material blessings promised under the Covenant, which are well established by the text.

These examples are just from the writings of Moses. The same consistent use of these items continues throughout the scriptures as when we see Jesus saying that new wine needs to be put into new wineskins. Jesus brought a new gospel/teaching.


You see, the only reason that the new wine/new wineskins analogy has any meaning whatsoever is because wine and wineskins are actual real things in their own right, with their own characteristics and properties. And to deny that those passages which speak of them as what they actually are is to deny the intended meaning of Scripture.

Now, when Jesus used this analogy, He was answering a question, "why do we and the Pharisees fast, and your disciples do not?" You can limit His answer to "wine" = "teaching", and say, Jesus brought a new teaching than John, or, without that arbitrary limitation - so far as the text is concerned - you can see the totality of what Jesus was actually saying:

"The wedding guests cannot mourn while the bridegroom is with them, can they?"

It's not just Jesus' teaching, it was Jesus Himself. When God comes to earth as a Man, you don't just continue on as though nothing were different, in the same old ways.

"But the days are coming when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and then they will fast."

Jesus' teaching would remain, but His physical presence would not.

So when we come up with these sorts of 'codes', such as "wine" = "teaching", we not only produce subjective doctrines not actually based on Scripture, but we can miss what God was actually saying.

Mark said:
Isn't this another example of choosing a subjective interpretation?


Scripture defines scripture. I have clearly shown scripture defines wine as "teachings"


As I've noted above, I haven't seen a single Scripture you've quoted which gives us an actual statement that "wine" is to be understood as "teaching", and particularly, universally throughout Scripture.

And this is only dealing with "wine", not to mention the entire list of "equivalencies" you gave.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby mark s on Sat May 29, 2010 11:37 pm

SueAnn wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:
Mrs. B wrote:Hurt not the Oil or Wine...

Those that are True Believers.....Following Jesus
The Two Witnesses...who witness for 1260 days

Mrs. B


Mrs. B, there's just one problem... The true believers WILL be hurt during the GT. Just as surely as Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross. MANY true believers will be killed.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:

extravagantchristian, I am wondering if the "hurt" you refer to is only physical. We can be murdered physically, but thanks to Jesus, no evil can befall us spiritually. What do you think?


If I continue the logic, in the spiritual sense, believers cannot be hurt, therefore, if the instruction were intended in a spiritual sense, "do not spiritually harm those who cannot be spiritually harmed", well, you probably see what I mean, it becomes a needless instruction.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Mrs. B on Sun May 30, 2010 12:53 pm

Do not hurt the Oil or Wine....



The Just shall live by Faith.......

Again.....let me to the best of my ability relay to you what I am saying....

We the True Believers live by Faith....We believe that Jesus is the Christ and By Our Believing we are Saved...'
With out faith...it is impossible to PLEASE HIM...WE MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS...AND THAT HE IS THE REWARDER OF THOSE WHO DILLIGENTLY SEEK HIM........The just shall live by Faith...

God honors Faith...

Hebrews 11:24....By faith Moses.....when he was come to years...Refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25.....Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Moses chose by faith to suffer affliction with the people of God.....
Moses By His Faith....

Hebrews 11 is the faith chapter.......
31....By Faith the harlot Rahab....... perished not..... with them that believed not....
when she had received the spies with peace.....
Notice by Her Faith....she perished not....

32.....And what shall I more say?
for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the Prophets:

34....Who through Faith Subdued Kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34....Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens..

35....Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others Were Tortured, NOT ACCEPTING DELIVERANCE: That they might obtain a better resurrection:

36...And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, Yea, Moreover of bonds and Imprisoment:

37...They were stoned, thery were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword:
they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins;
being destitute, afflicted, tromented;

38...(Of whom the World WAS NOT WORTHY:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth
39....And These All, Having obtained a good report through Faith,
Received not the Promise:
40...God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect....


12:1....WHEREFORE....Seeing we also are compassed about with so great a Cloud of Witnesses, let us lay aside every
weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us....and Let Us Run With Patience the Race that is set before us...

2....LOOKING UNTO JESUS....the author and finisher of our Faith;
Who for the JOY that was set before him Endured the Cross,
despising the shame,
and is set down at the RIGHT HAND OF THE THRONE OF GOD.....

I John 5.....And this is the confidence that we have in him, that , if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15...And if we know that he hear us, whasoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desire of Him.....

19...And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20...And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an Understanding, that we may know Him that is True, and we are in Him that is True, Even in His Son Jesus Christ...
This is the True God, and Eternal Life...

We are saved by Our Faith.........and we are Kept by Our Faith...

Now there will be Martyrs just like Stephen......die for the Glory of God....but I believe God give us a choice....
there will be many who choose and give their lives by Faith.....knowing that the witness of there death is Greater then their life........Hurt not the Oil or the Wine...


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Re: Do not hurt the Oil or Wine

Postby Pretzelogical on Sun May 30, 2010 1:22 pm

SueAnn wrote:
extravagantchristian wrote:
Mrs. B wrote:
Hurt not the Oil or Wine...

Those that are True Believers.....Following Jesus
The Two Witnesses...who witness for 1260 days

Mrs. B

Mrs. B, there's just one problem... The true believers WILL be hurt during the GT. Just as surely as Jesus Christ was nailed to the cross. MANY true believers will be killed.

Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them:


I just have a moment so real quickly...

The Holy Spirit can be spiritually harmed:

Isaiah 63:10
But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.


Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


1 Thessalonians 5
18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
19 Do not quench the Spirit;
20 do not despise prophetic utterances.
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil.


Stephen gave witness and his death as a witness of the harm done when the Holy Spirit is resisted:
Acts 7
51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
52 "Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
53 you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it."


The oil/Holy Spirit will not be harmed when the two witnesses are bold in their obedience to have the word of God come out of their mouths in purity.
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