Zech. 14:5 & 1 Thess. 3:13: Angels or Saints?

[rizen]

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech. 14:5)

Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. (1 Thess. 3:11-13)

Marvin Rosenthal's article from a '97 edition of Zion's Fire makes a convincing claim how the word "saints" in 1 Thess. 3:13 should actually be "angels". Since both the Hebrew (kedosh) and Greek (hagios) words for saints and angels can be interchangeable and the context determines its translation, it would seem the word for saints in the context of the letter to the Thessalonians here in 1 Thess. 3:13 can only be angels since:

"In Paul's epistles, he often breaks out into brief prayers for those to whom he is writing. For the Thessalonians, he prayed: "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Th. 3:13). Since he is praying that believers on the earth will have their hearts established at the Lord's coming, he is clearly distinguishing between believers on earth and the "saints" (holy ones) who will come with the Lord from Heaven. It is impossible for the Church to be in two places at the same time. They can't have their hearts "established" (the idea is firm and unmoved) until Christ comes and at the same time accompany Him at His coming."

Marvin Rosenthal

Why would Paul exhort for Christ to establish the hearts of the church at Thessalonica to be ready for Christ at His Parousia if they were the one's accompanying Him?

http://www.zionshope.org/zionsfire/arti ... _with.html

Here is an abbreviated response by pretrib.org:

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Gromac ... vinRos.pdf

It's also noteworthy that the word "parousia" is used in 1 Thess. 3:13. Is there ever an instance where the Greek word "parousia" is used when talking about Jesus returning with the Church to earth?

[Mr Baldy]

Is there any reason why this can't be referring to both Angels and Saints?

After all, there will be those who become saved during the tribulation period, and Scripture gives examples of both returning with Christ.

[The Orange Mailman]

Saints. The word means saints or holy ones. Throughout the epistles it is used on connection with the saints. I don't see any mention of angels in either of those verses.

[Mr Baldy]

Throughout the epistles it is used on connection with the saints.

This is in direct contradiction of Marvin Rosenthal theory, (not that he is the final authority) and as Risen has stated, Rosenthal does make a valid point.

Rosenthal also offers: Matthew 25:31; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8; and Revelation 19:14. Now these are pretty convincing passages of Scripture that indicate that both angels and Saints accompany Christ at His Return - and the totality of what Rosenthal was mentioning about Christ coming to gather His Church at the beginning of the 70th week then later returning - he said it made no sense, which refutes the pre-trib Rapture Doctrine.

I am somewhat in agreement with Rosenthal - but I differ with him, in that in the very Scriptures that he provides; is clear evidence that Christ Returns with his "holy ones" - meaning saints and angels.

[mark s]

Where is the NT passage in which hagios clearly refers to angels?

Is there one?

[Mr Baldy]

Where is the NT passage in which hagios clearly refers to angels?

Is there one?

I think that you are missing the point here, or perhaps "reading into" what I have stated.

This is what I wrote:

the very Scriptures that he provides; is clear evidence that Christ Returns with his "holy ones" - meaning saints and angels.

The Scriptures - being "NT passage" were provided.

[mark s]

Logically speaking, that angels accompany Jesus, and that saints accompany Jesus, does not in and of itself mean that "saints" is used for angels.

[The Orange Mailman]

What do you know, Mark S. and I agree on something.

[mark s]

Oh, come on now! We've agreed before . . . I just know we have . . . um . . . um . . .

[Ready1]

Grin

[GodsStudent]

after reading so many good discussions you fellas have had, I almost fell out of bed laughing when I read this!

[Mr Baldy]

Logically speaking, that angels accompany Jesus, and that saints accompany Jesus, does not in and of itself mean that "saints" is used for angels.

No, actually it doesn't ...but it sure does take a lot of "reading into" to think otherwise, given the topic - which is "holy ones"