"One taken, one left" from a pre-wrath perspective

[Truthinlove]

I am trying to understand this, but it doesn't seem to make sense from a pre-wrath perspective where we will be here going through the great tribulation prior to the rapture.

Luke 17:34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left."

So....at the point of the rapture, believers will have been undergoing the great tribulation for a while now. Murder is rampant all over the globe and few believers will be alive towards the end. The love of most will grow cold, LOVED ones will BETRAY and HATE one another. How will it be that a believer and and unbeliever will be sharing a bed together up to the rapture?? That doesn't seem possible. I read "Overcomer" & "The Appearing" - in the scenario she played out, which is probably pretty realistic, this just doesn't seem the likely scenario for the rapture.

Matt. 24:40-41 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left."

Again....this doesn't seem to fit with the prewrath scenario of a rapture out of great tribulation. Why would believers be right there will unbelievers?? Unbelievers will be killing believers. I think believers will either be in hiding, or they will be killed. It doesn't seem like they will be out in the open doing normal things during the great tribulation. And....are they working in those verses?? How will believers be able to work without the mark of the beast, there will be no buying and selling for those who refuse the mark so how would they be paid?

I am confused.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hi Truth In Love-

I think sometimes we get caught up in certain aspect of the great tribulation that we overlook other aspects. For instance, we emphasize how believers will be persecuted, put to death, perhaps denied food (?), but what about other portions of these same passages? For instance, let's start with Luke 17:20-37. Jesus talks about the unchanging nature of the people of this world. He points to the days of Noah and draws a parallel. Just like in Noah's days, those people carried on just like they always had. They kept getting married, they kept having children, they kepts having feasts, building houses, selling merchandise, and then when the flood came, they were taken by surprise. They had no idea this worldwide judgment was coming. So from one perspective, yes, certain events will transpire that will make this world a crazy place for a while. However, in another sense, the world will just keep on functioning as if no judgment were hanging over their heads.

The Olivet Discourse teaches the same thing. While a worldwide, intense persecution of Christians is taught, the world just keeps on turning. There is persecution in the world now. Does this mean that believers and non-believers do not coexist? The persecution is more intense and polarized in certain portions of the world. I expect it will continue this way even though the persecution becomes more intense. Believers and non-believers will continue to go to work together, cohabitate with each other, attend the same functions, but there is this impending judgment which could overtake all of them. Some of this will be affected by the great persecution, but some of this will not. The great tribulation which will be occurring throughout the world will be a testimony in the news as to exactly where we are in the eschatological scheme of things. I don't think anybody will be totally ignorant of what is occurring. This persecution will surpass any other. But will it get as bad as some of these novels portray? We can't be certain.

Another passage that tells us that the world will continue operating as it always has is II Peter 3. While some scoffers are insisting that everything just keeps functioning as it always has, there will be this judgment which could break forth upon them to destroy the world by fire. Again, the parallel to the flood of Noah is drawn to show that the world at large was unprepared before and will be unprepared again. They simply will not understand as they go about their every day business that something is about to drastically alter the face of this earth.

So, if I can just speak the truth in love, Truth In Love, we should not let sensationalization eclipse other aspects of these prophecies. We can speculate what it might be like, there’s no harm in that. But let’s not overlook the fact that these same prophecies portray a world that just keeps on going, unaware of what is unfolding. Both aspects will be fulfilled shortly.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Truthinlove]

Hi Truth In Love-

I think sometimes we get caught up in certain aspect of the great tribulation that we overlook other aspects. For instance, we emphasize how believers will be persecuted, put to death, perhaps denied food (?), but what about other portions of these same passages? For instance, let's start with Luke 17:20-37. Jesus talks about the unchanging nature of the people of this world. He points to the days of Noah and draws a parallel. Just like in Noah's days, those people carried on just like they always had. They kept getting married, they kept having children, they kepts having feasts, building houses, selling merchandise, and then when the flood came, they were taken by surprise. They had no idea this worldwide judgment was coming. So from one perspective, yes, certain events will transpire that will make this world a crazy place for a while. However, in another sense, the world will just keep on functioning as if no judgment were hanging over their heads.

Hi OM - thank you for your reply. Yes, I get this, but the world will seem normal to those who accept the MOB, but to those who refuse it will mean death. Taking that fact into consideration and the fact that Jesus said that family members will turn against each other, it just is hard to imagine a non-Christian sharing a bed with a Christian through all that.

There is persecution in the world now. Does this mean that believers and non-believers do not coexist?

No, they do, however there is not an ultimatum of follow the beast or die.

Believers and non-believers will continue to go to work together, cohabitate with each other, attend the same functions

But how? I can see that up to a certain point, but once the MOB is enforced those who don't have it won't be able to make any financial transactions therefore going to work becomes obselete.

So, if I can just speak the truth in love, Truth In Love, we should not let sensationalization eclipse other aspects of these prophecies. We can speculate what it might be like, there’s no harm in that. But let’s not overlook the fact that these same prophecies portray a world that just keeps on going, unaware of what is unfolding. Both aspects will be fulfilled shortly.

I hear ya. It is just still hard for me to reconcile those verses though.

[daffodyllady]

I can imagine it would be a lot like as a christian wife of a muslim man in a muslim country, who lives in constant threat of her life. She holds no job, and probably doesn't get out of the house much at all. Yet she is allowed to live as long as he wishes to have her in his bed. She fits the description of the scriptures, doesn't she?

[TexasBeliever]

Here's a scary thought: remember the story of the bridemaids waiting for the groom with their lamps? There were all waiting but half of them were locked outside the gates. Perhaps the ones who were not taken in the rapture are rejected believers?
Jesus said of those terrible times; "Pray constantly, that you may be found worthy to stand before the Son of Man."

[AndCanItBe]

Perhaps the ones who were not taken in the rapture are rejected believers?

Do you mean by "rejected believers", those with only head knowledge, like the demons, who have never been saved? Anyone who truly believes is not going to be rejected.

1 John 5

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

5Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

[Loop]

Hmmm! Or the Inward man taken and the outward man left ....

Where so ever the body is there will the eagles be gathered...

Luke:17 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

[rizen]

Hello Truthinlove,

How will it be that a believer and and unbeliever will be sharing a bed together up to the rapture??

The answer is they won't be sharing a bed. This is the primary difference between the true "rapture ready" Christian (2 Peter 1:14-15) and the twice dead one (2 Peter 2:20). The difference between the two is that the rapture ready Christian has already forsaken his life in the world, while the left behind Christian has not. This is why the proper passages to highlight in Luke 17 are verse 32-33.

In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. (Luke 17:32-33)

In 1 Thess. 5 we are promised that both the Great Tribulation and Day of Lord will not come like a thief upon true believers. First Thessalonians 5 obliterates the idea of an any-moment rapture. In each instance (before Great Trib. and DOTL) there will be a warning issued to believers to completely forsake their own lives in this world (similar to Rev. 18:4). Those who do act upon that warning will reap its reward (the Rapture). We see in Rev. 14:4-5 how the 144,000 are able to stand on the Day of the Lord because they were not defiled with women and no leaven or guile was found in their mouths. Leaven is a symbol for pride. This was the thing that Lot's wife could not rid herself of and is why she was left behind.

There is a corporate solidarity in the 144,000 firstfruits and all those who who escape the Day of the Lord, just as there is a corporate solidarity in the remnant of Judea who fled at the sign of the AOD (Matt. 24:15-18) and all those who escape the Great Tribulation. The thing that both groups shared was a willingness to forsake everything this world had to offer, just as it was the thing that Noah and Lot shared. Revelation 18:4 is a type of pre-rapture warning. Matthew 24:15-18 illustrates how we should react to that warning. And Revelation 14:1-5 shows us the result of acting on the warning.

However, the example of Lot's wife in Gen. 19:26 shows us the result of not acting on the pre-rapture warning. Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt and left behind because she was unwilling to forsake everything "in this world" in order to escape. Therefore, it isn't the rapture that is imminent, it is this warning to forsake everything in the world that is. This is what Luke 17 and Matthew 24 are illustrating. The one who is taken from the bed, field, world is already gone before the rapture happens. Although their physical bodies will be present along with unbelievers in the world at the rapture, their hearts and minds are in two completely different places. If you want to be rapture ready, you better be prepared to forsake everything in this world at any moment, even things that are not evil at all in themselves (buying and selling, marrying and being given in marriage...etc).

So....at the point of the rapture, believers will have been undergoing the great tribulation for a while now. Murder is rampant all over the globe and few believers will be alive towards the end.

There's no doubt there will persecution during the great tribulation. But the fear of physical persecution isn't the primary thing we are warned to flee from. The two things we are warned about most are deception and temptation. The temptation is going to be much greater than the persecution. The bible forewarns us in four places (1 Cor. 3:18-20; Eph. 5:6-10; 2 Thess. 2:3-4; 1 Jo. 3:7-11) how the Antichrist is going to attempt to deceive the elect. These passages should be of primary importance as it pertains to the Antichrist, not the physical persecution. But this is a difficult message to get across in Laodicea.

[rizen]

The primary passages I would use to demonstrate how the "paralambano" in Matt. 24:40-41 and Luke 17:34-36 is a reference to the rapture would be Matt. 2:13 and John 14:1-3. The "harpazo" (rapture) of Revelation 12:5 obviously draws on the "paralambano" of Matt. 2:13. Revelation 12:1-5 was fulfilled historically in Matt. 2:13-14 when Joseph was warned in a dream "during the night" (just like Luke 17:34) to take his wife and Jesus and escape to Egypt. In order to escape the wrath of Herod and for "flesh to be saved" (Matt. 24:22), Jesus had to be physically removed from Israel to Egypt. This same scenario comes into play in the last days when the great tribulation is cut short for the elect's sake in order that flesh be saved. While it's pretty obvious how the sealing of the 144,000 after the 6th seal (but before the 1st trumpet judgment in Rev. 8) would represent a saving of flesh, from a theoretical point of view the saving of flesh actually begins when those in Israel flee at the sign of the Abomination of Desolation in Matt. 24:15-18. We are told in Rev. 12:6 how they will be divinely protected in wilderness for the final 1260 days of the 70th Week. But in order to be divinely protected, it is required that they literally remove themselves from Israel to someplace else.

The "taken" (paralambano) of Matt. 24:20-41 and Luke 17:34-36 are the same ones that Jesus receives (paralambano) in John 14:3.

Hmmm! Or the Inward man taken and the outward man left ....

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (1 Cor. 15:50-51)

[rizen]

One other way of examining Matthew 24 and Luke 17 is to take a look at the Greek word for "flood" (kataklysmos) in Matt. 24:38-39 and Luke 17:27. This word is only used four times in the Bible (the other time in 2 Peter 2:5), and the implication is that this flood is going to bring such utter cataclysm upon the unrighteous that will require physical removal of the righteous. This flood is depiction of God's wrath.

This is distinct from the other "flood" (potamos) in Matt. 7:25-27 and Luke 6:48-49, which both the wise and foolish virgins must withstand. This particular flood is the same one that issues forth from Satan's mouth in Rev. 12:15-16. It's an interesting word because it carries with it the idea of drinking (pino) and excess banquetings ("potos" from 1 Peter 4:3). In light of the fact the context of Luke 17:27 highlights drinking as one of the things the foolish virgins will be doing before the kataklysmos flood, it's not difficult to see how this is a picture of how they subscribed (whether knowingly or unknowingly) into the designs of Satan and his desire that you be consumed with the cares of this life. This is why Luke 6:47 and Matt. 7:24 tell us to not only be hearers of His word but doers of it as well. This is the real difference between a wise and foolish virgin.

But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. (Matt. 25:9)

Goes together with:

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. (Matt. 7:6)

Here we see the foolish virgins are midrashically represented as swine. The text of Matt. 7 is alerting the wise virgins to not give their oil (illumination of the word of God) to the foolish virgins. The book of Proverbs illustrates how this would be like placing a jewel in a swine's snout since they are without discretion:

As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion. (Pro. 11:22)

Notice how it's the lack of discretion or discernment that makes a foolish virgin "foolish". I wonder if Matt. 25:9 is referenced in Pro. 11:13?

A talebearer revealeth secrets: but he that is of a faithful spirit concealeth the matter. (Pro. 11:13)

It seems obvious the wise virgins of Matt. 25:9 are concealing something. I'm not sure, but this might put a whole new spin on what the swine of Matt. 8:30-32, Mar. 5:11-13, and Luke 8:32-33 represent. Foolish virgins?