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The Orange Mailman wrote:Douggg-
Surely the image itself can tell us much. For instance, in Daniel 7, the ten horns are all on one beast. In Revelation 13, the horns are all on one beast, only now the beast has amalgamated the characteristics of the first three beasts of the Daniel 7 vision into its being. The 7 horns must be on one of the heads[/u], meaning the final, seventh head that will immediately precursor antichrist. The ten kings rule for a brief period of time, then comes the eighth, which is of the seven.
Here is what I'm getting at, the horns all spring from a head. The heads all spring from a beast. What would this tell us? The beast, being Satan's overall government plan spanning centuries. The heads meaning empires since they are said to be successive (five are fallen, one is, one is to come).
The ten horns meaning a division within one of the heads, the seventh head, since the horns are contemporaneous (the ten kings will rule for one hour with the beast).
Being that all the horns must be on a head, there must be a hierarchy that is represented. Heads must be above horns, and the beast must encompass all the heads.
Hi orange, the rationale of 7 (of the ten horns) must be on one of the 7 heads - doesn't work because the ten horns have crowns, while the 7 heads don't in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, it is the reverse. It is either crowns on all of the horns or on all of the heads.
The Orange Mailman wrote:Hello Douggg-Hi orange, the rationale of 7 (of the ten horns) must be on one of the 7 heads - doesn't work because the ten horns have crowns, while the 7 heads don't in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, it is the reverse. It is either crowns on all of the horns or on all of the heads.
This does not eliminate the idea. The seven crowns show that at this point (Revelation 12), the authority is vested in the empires, the heads. When the crowns are said to be upon the ten horns (all on one head), then the authority has been transferred to the ten kings who will rule with the eighth for one brief period of time.
This does not mean that the horns are all spread out on different heads. They all rule during the same time period.
There is no mention of multiple heads when Daniel describes the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Therefore I believe all the horns are on one head there in Daniel 7.
Later in Revelation 13 when the beast is shown in its amalgamated form, having digested the previous three empires into its being (lion, bear, leopard), now the Roman Empire is in power but the horns should all still be on one head.
The idea of kings and kingdoms can be interchangeable at times.
There can be no king without a kingdom, and kingdoms typically have one man as a ruler over the entire dominion. For instance, in the case of Assyria, there was one man who ruled, but at different points it was someone different, from Tiglath-Pileser to Shalmanezer to Sennacharib. So it could be said that Assyria is represented by one head and say that they are kings. It’s the same with Babylon. Even though the entire empire of Babylon is represented by the head of gold, Daniel could say of a surety to Nebuchadnezzar that “you are the head of gold”. Nebuchadnezzar represented the empire in its entirety even though at other points other rulers had this position such as Nabonidus and Amel-Marduk.
It’s interesting that Satan himself is pictured as having seven heads and ten horns. What is being conveyed here? The devil himself has worked through governmental empires in times past, and has one more final arrangement through whom he will persecute the woman, and yet he’s been doing it all along. All that remains now is for the final arrangement of ten kings to appear within the bounds of the old Roman Empire. To limit the beast (which mirrors Satan very modus operandi for the governments) to simply the Roman Empire in both heads and horns, is to miss the greater picture through which Satan has been working through the centuries. It could then be said of Egypt when it was destroyed that God broke the heads of leviathan in Psalm 74:14. In line with that, the Assyrian Empire was pictured as leviathan the crooked serpent and the dragon in the sea in Isaiah 27:1. It was the same beast, just a different head was ruling. When we read five have fallen, we understand that five empires through whom Satan had worked to persecute and attempt to destroy God’s people Israel were now in the past. One was ruling, and one yet to come existing in a division of ten kingdoms.
I notice that you have left out some of the emperors of Rome.
The Orange Mailman wrote:Douggg-
On this matter we are so close it's almost not worth debating. We both agree ten kings will come at some future point in time. Whether or not the five fallen are five fallen empires or five fallen emperors is sort of a moot point. Either way it was in the past when John saw the vision.
I agree that the beast is pictured slightly different as prophetic visions progressed. The fourth beast of Daniel 7 looked slightly different in Revelation, but it is the same. I assert that the ten horns are all on the seventh head of the beast, which is yet future.
The ten crowns are on those ten horns, but before that, the beast had crowns on the seven heads. Each head was successive, meaning only one ruled at a time. With the horns, they are all seen together and will rule at the same time in the future until the antichrist arises (humbling three before him) and they all give their authority unto him.
But to keep the debate going, the beast can represent more than one kingdom. The beast has incorporated the likeness of the lion, bear, and leopard into its very being. This can only be explained with Daniel 7 as a background. Since the Roman Empire digested the previous three (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) that means the beast is more than just one kingdom. This is Satan's overall empire plan spanning the ages. This explains why the dragon was awaiting at the beginning of time to devour the Messiah.
Hi Orange, please bear with me. The problem with putting the ten horns on the seventh head is that it indicates that the ten kings grow out of that seventh head. That presents a conflict with Daniel 7. If we agree that the Antichrist MAN is the seventh king, then he - has to - come up among ten kings who are already existing in the fourth kingdom.
Have you ever considered that the Roman Empire is more of a physical territorial factor,
The Orange Mailman wrote:Hello Douggg-Hi Orange, please bear with me. The problem with putting the ten horns on the seventh head is that it indicates that the ten kings grow out of that seventh head. That presents a conflict with Daniel 7. If we agree that the Antichrist MAN is the seventh king, then he - has to - come up among ten kings who are already existing in the fourth kingdom.
The antichrist is the eighth. See Revelation 17:11. The seventh is the arrangement of ten kings ruling, see Revelation 17:16-17. They hand their authority over to the eighth meaning they are the seventh. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes up among the ten.
Your theory about the views of the Roman Empire seen from a different point of view in different visions falls short in my honest opinion. Why would Satan himself be pictured as a 7 headed ten horned dragon who dragged down a third of the stars (a third of the angels) at the dawn of time.
Something has to incorporate all of Satan’s working throughout history and the view of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece for the five that have fallen does just that.
Also, it seems more than just a coincidence that characteristics of all four beasts of Daniel 7 are seen as dimensions in the body of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 (lion, bear, leopard, ten horns). As far as the EU, I am open to developments as they occur, but I strongly believe that the ten kings will be located in both the eastern and western portions of the old Roman Empire.
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