Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

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Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:45 pm

In Revelation 17, there are seven kings. Are those 7 kings of one kingdom or 7 kings of 7 different kingdoms?

In Daniel 7, we have the four beasts as four kings. And the four beasts are also four kingdoms. So each of the beasts represent one kingdom, each with its own king.

So the 7 sequential kings in Revelation 17, are pictured on one beast - is 7 sequential kings of that one kingdom. Not 7 sequential kings of 7 sequential kingdoms because there are not 7 beasts present in Revelation 17.

The 10 kings in Revelation 17 are 10 kings of the one kingdom as represented by the one beast pictured in Revelation 17.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby shorttribber on Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:49 pm

:dizzy:
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:46 pm

shorttribber wrote::dizzy:


I am saying that the 7 horns in Revelation 17 are not 7 kingdoms, nor 7 kings of 7 kingdoms, but 7 kings of one kingdom.

Not this:
Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Medo-Persian Empire
Greek Empire
Imperial Rome
Papal Rome

Re-emergent Papal Rome(kingdom #8)

Nor this
Egyptian Empire
Assyrian Empire
Babylonian Empire
Medo-Persian Empire
Greek Empire
Roman Empire
Ottoman Turks

10 Middleeast Nation Caliphate (kingdom #8)

But this:
Julius Caesar
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
Nero
Antichrist Man

Antichrist beast (king #8)
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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby The Orange Mailman on Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:14 pm

Douggg-

Surely the image itself can tell us much. For instance, in Daniel 7, the ten horns are all on one beast. In Revelation 13, the horns are all on one beast, only now the beast has amalgamated the characteristics of the first three beasts of the Daniel 7 vision into its being. The 7 horns must be on one of the heads, meaning the final, seventh head that will immediately precursor antichrist. The ten kings rule for a brief period of time, then comes the eighth, which is of the seven.

Here is what I'm getting at, the horns all spring from a head. The heads all spring from a beast. What would this tell us? The beast, being Satan's overall government plan spanning centuries. The heads meaning empires since they are said to be successive (five are fallen, one is, one is to come). The ten horns meaning a division within one of the heads, the seventh head, since the horns are contemporaneous (the ten kings will rule for one hour with the beast).

Being that all the horns must be on a head, there must be a hierarchy that is represented. Heads must be above horns, and the beast must encompass all the heads.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:51 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Douggg-

Surely the image itself can tell us much. For instance, in Daniel 7, the ten horns are all on one beast. In Revelation 13, the horns are all on one beast, only now the beast has amalgamated the characteristics of the first three beasts of the Daniel 7 vision into its being. The 7 horns must be on one of the heads[/u], meaning the final, seventh head that will immediately precursor antichrist. The ten kings rule for a brief period of time, then comes the eighth, which is of the seven.


Hi orange, :a2: , the rationale of 7 (of the ten horns) must be on one of the 7 heads - doesn't work because the ten horns have crowns, while the 7 heads don't in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, it is the reverse. It is either crowns on all of the horns or on all of the heads.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


Here is what I'm getting at, the horns all spring from a head. The heads all spring from a beast. What would this tell us? The beast, being Satan's overall government plan spanning centuries. The heads meaning empires since they are said to be successive (five are fallen, one is, one is to come).


The 7 heads cannot be empires because it says there are 7 kings. The ten horns are not empires either. It says that they are kings. There is only one empire which is the beast, which from Daniel 7 is the fourth empire. The beast is also a king, the eighth king. Why doesn't the eighth king have a crown anywhere in Revelation? It is because he is not a living human being in the end times. As a spirit he comes out of the bottomless pit to incarnate the wounded head king #7.
The ten horns meaning a division within one of the heads, the seventh head, since the horns are contemporaneous (the ten kings will rule for one hour with the beast).


Again, it can't work because either all of the horns have crowns (Revelation 12) or all of the heads have crowns (Revelation 13).

Being that all the horns must be on a head, there must be a hierarchy that is represented. Heads must be above horns, and the beast must encompass all the heads.


:mrgreen: I am getting a headache. :lol:


Peace,

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby drdos on Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:20 am

This makes sense to me...
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Governor James H. Douglas of Vermont - Region 1

Governor Luis Fortuna of Puerto Rico - Region 2

Governor Robert McDonnell of Virginia - Region 3

Governor Beverly Eaves Purdue of North Carolina - Region 4

Governor Brad Henry of Oklahoma - Region 6

Governor Jeremiah Nixon of Missouri - Region 7

Governor Mike Rounds of South Dakota - Region 8

Governor Janice Brewer of Arizona - Region 9

Governor Chris Gregoire of Washington - Region 10

Governor Martin O'Malley of Maryland - Region 3

Continue reading on Examiner.com: SD Governor accepts new position appointed by Obama. - Sioux Falls Conservative | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in ... z1Avf7KHZi
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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:29 am

Hello Douggg-

Hi orange, the rationale of 7 (of the ten horns) must be on one of the 7 heads - doesn't work because the ten horns have crowns, while the 7 heads don't in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, it is the reverse. It is either crowns on all of the horns or on all of the heads.


This does not eliminate the idea. The seven crowns show that at this point (Revelation 12), the authority is vested in the empires, the heads. When the crowns are said to be upon the ten horns (all on one head), then the authority has been transferred to the ten kings who will rule with the eighth for one brief period of time. This does not mean that the horns are all spread out on different heads. They all rule during the same time period. There is no mention of multiple heads when Daniel describes the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Therefore I believe all the horns are on one head there in Daniel 7. Later in Revelation 13 when the beast is shown in its amalgamated form, having digested the previous three empires into its being (lion, bear, leopard), now the Roman Empire is in power but the horns should all still be on one head.

The idea of kings and kingdoms can be interchangeable at times. There can be no king without a kingdom, and kingdoms typically have one man as a ruler over the entire dominion. For instance, in the case of Assyria, there was one man who ruled, but at different points it was someone different, from Tiglath-Pileser to Shalmanezer to Sennacharib. So it could be said that Assyria is represented by one head and say that they are kings. It’s the same with Babylon. Even though the entire empire of Babylon is represented by the head of gold, Daniel could say of a surety to Nebuchadnezzar that “you are the head of gold”. Nebuchadnezzar represented the empire in its entirety even though at other points other rulers had this position such as Nabonidus and Amel-Marduk.

It’s interesting that Satan himself is pictured as having seven heads and ten horns. What is being conveyed here? The devil himself has worked through governmental empires in times past, and has one more final arrangement through whom he will persecute the woman, and yet he’s been doing it all along. All that remains now is for the final arrangement of ten kings to appear within the bounds of the old Roman Empire. To limit the beast (which mirrors Satan very modus operandi for the governments) to simply the Roman Empire in both heads and horns, is to miss the greater picture through which Satan has been working through the centuries. It could then be said of Egypt when it was destroyed that God broke the heads of leviathan in Psalm 74:14. In line with that, the Assyrian Empire was pictured as leviathan the crooked serpent and the dragon in the sea in Isaiah 27:1.  It was the same beast, just a different head was ruling. When we read five have fallen, we understand that five empires through whom Satan had worked to persecute and attempt to destroy God’s people Israel were now in the past. One was ruling, and one yet to come existing in a division of ten kingdoms.

I notice that you have left out some of the emperors of Rome.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:02 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hello Douggg-

Hi orange, the rationale of 7 (of the ten horns) must be on one of the 7 heads - doesn't work because the ten horns have crowns, while the 7 heads don't in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12, it is the reverse. It is either crowns on all of the horns or on all of the heads.


This does not eliminate the idea. The seven crowns show that at this point (Revelation 12), the authority is vested in the empires, the heads. When the crowns are said to be upon the ten horns (all on one head), then the authority has been transferred to the ten kings who will rule with the eighth for one brief period of time.


But the crowns are on either the horns or on the heads. Not both at the same time in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

It is just 10 kings. And just 7 kings. One beast. One kingdom. Just keep it simple.
This does not mean that the horns are all spread out on different heads. They all rule during the same time period.


"They" meaning who? The horns or the heads rule at the same time?

There is no mention of multiple heads when Daniel describes the fourth beast of Daniel 7. Therefore I believe all the horns are on one head there in Daniel 7.


Well it says the ten horns in Daniel 7, within Daniel 7, are on the one head of the fourth beast. So it is not a guess on your part. 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. There are no other heads on the fourth beast to consider in that vision.

The problem is that it doesn't work to assign those ten horns to one head in Revelation. While the ten horns were on the fourth beast's head in Daniel 7, there are 7 heads on the fourth beast in Revelation 17,12, 13.

It was the fourth beast in Daniel 7 that you believe ten horns were on, right? So do you agree that the beast in Revelation 17, 12, 13 is the fourth beast? The one beast in Revelation 17, 12, 13.

Later in Revelation 13 when the beast is shown in its amalgamated form, having digested the previous three empires into its being (lion, bear, leopard), now the Roman Empire is in power but the horns should all still be on one head.


The beast in Revelation 13 is the status of the beast with only 42 months left in the 7 years.

When you were a little baby you had no teeth; then as toddler you had baby teeth; then as a teenager you had a full set of adult teeth; then as an adult after 15 years of soda you had a few less teeth; then you reach middle age, you have no teeth but dentures. Each of those is your status, according to your teeth, at a particular point in time.

The picture of the beast according to the heads, horns, crowns shows the status of the beast at a particular point in time. In Revelation 17, it is during John's time, the first century. In Revelation 12, it is right at the beginning of the 7 years. In Revelation 13, it is at the midway point of the 7 years, with the last 42 months to go.

The idea of kings and kingdoms can be interchangeable at times.


....but not with each other. In Daniel 7 the 4 beasts are 4 kings. And the 4 beasts are 4 kingdoms. But the comparison is never made that the 4 kings are 4 kingdoms.

There can be no king without a kingdom, and kingdoms typically have one man as a ruler over the entire dominion. For instance, in the case of Assyria, there was one man who ruled, but at different points it was someone different, from Tiglath-Pileser to Shalmanezer to Sennacharib. So it could be said that Assyria is represented by one head and say that they are kings. It’s the same with Babylon. Even though the entire empire of Babylon is represented by the head of gold, Daniel could say of a surety to Nebuchadnezzar that “you are the head of gold”. Nebuchadnezzar represented the empire in its entirety even though at other points other rulers had this position such as Nabonidus and Amel-Marduk.


One head represented one king. I don't have a problem with that. Seven heads represent seven kings. When the seven heads are on one beast; that is seven kings of one kingdom - because the beast can only represent one kingdom.

It’s interesting that Satan himself is pictured as having seven heads and ten horns. What is being conveyed here? The devil himself has worked through governmental empires in times past, and has one more final arrangement through whom he will persecute the woman, and yet he’s been doing it all along. All that remains now is for the final arrangement of ten kings to appear within the bounds of the old Roman Empire. To limit the beast (which mirrors Satan very modus operandi for the governments) to simply the Roman Empire in both heads and horns, is to miss the greater picture through which Satan has been working through the centuries. It could then be said of Egypt when it was destroyed that God broke the heads of leviathan in Psalm 74:14. In line with that, the Assyrian Empire was pictured as leviathan the crooked serpent and the dragon in the sea in Isaiah 27:1.  It was the same beast, just a different head was ruling. When we read five have fallen, we understand that five empires through whom Satan had worked to persecute and attempt to destroy God’s people Israel were now in the past. One was ruling, and one yet to come existing in a division of ten kingdoms.


The Egyptian and Assyrian empires are not pictured in Revelation 17, 12, 13.
I notice that you have left out some of the emperors of Rome.


Yes, that is very important
and at the heart of who the 7 kings are. Not all Romans emperors are of the Julio-Claudian family. The five fallen were. The sixth ruling was. Nero was the last of the Julio Claudian family. Then came the Flavian family. So the count of the seven kings in Revelation 17 stops at #6, historically the last of the Julio Claudian. The Antichrist Man of the end times picks up the Julio-Claudian bloodline again, as king #7.

It is not until Revelation 12, that all of the 7 kings of the Julio-Claudian bloodline are complete. It is then that the crowns are on the 7 heads. In Revelation 12, king #7 has come to power,with 7 years to go (Revelation 12:6+12:14 = 7 years). King #7 is the Antichrist MAN, not yet morphed into the Antichrist beast.

It is not until Revelation 13, with 42 months to go, that the Antichrist MAN is mortally wounded. There are no crowns on the heads in 13:1 because all of the 7 kings are now dead. The beast spirit now in the bottomless pit is allow to come out of the bottomless pit to incarnate the dead Antichrist man during the recovery process, morphing the dead Antichrist man into the Antichrist beast... with 42 months to go. The beast spirit is probably that of Nimrod.

The Antichrist man will be of the bloodline of the Julio Claudian family. He will be the 7th king of that bloodline.

The beast spirit coming out of the bottomless pit, with 42 months left, will incarnate the mortally wounded and miraculously recovered Antichrist man - which makes the beast in the bottomless pit to be "of" the seven.


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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby The Orange Mailman on Thu Jan 13, 2011 7:07 pm

Douggg-

On this matter we are so close it's almost not worth debating. We both agree ten kings will come at some future point in time. Whether or not the five fallen are five fallen empires or five fallen emperors is sort of a moot point. Either way it was in the past when John saw the vision.

I agree that the beast is pictured slightly different as prophetic visions progressed. The fourth beast of Daniel 7 looked slightly different in Revelation, but it is the same. I assert that the ten horns are all on the seventh head of the beast, which is yet future. The ten crowns are on those ten horns, but before that, the beast had crowns on the seven heads. Each head was successive, meaning only one ruled at a time. With the horns, they are all seen together and will rule at the same time in the future until the antichrist arises (humbling three before him) and they all give their authority unto him.

But to keep the debate going, the beast can represent more than one kingdom. The beast has incorporated the likeness of the lion, bear, and leopard into its very being. This can only be explained with Daniel 7 as a background. Since the Roman Empire digested the previous three (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) that means the beast is more than just one kingdom. This is Satan's overall empire plan spanning the ages. This explains why the dragon was awaiting at the beginning of time to devour the Messiah.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:33 pm

The Orange Mailman wrote:Douggg-

On this matter we are so close it's almost not worth debating. We both agree ten kings will come at some future point in time. Whether or not the five fallen are five fallen empires or five fallen emperors is sort of a moot point. Either way it was in the past when John saw the vision.

I agree that the beast is pictured slightly different as prophetic visions progressed. The fourth beast of Daniel 7 looked slightly different in Revelation, but it is the same. I assert that the ten horns are all on the seventh head of the beast, which is yet future.


Hi Orange, please bear with me. The problem with putting the ten horns on the seventh head is that it indicates that the ten kings grow out of that seventh head. That presents a conflict with Daniel 7. If we agree that the Antichrist MAN is the seventh king, then he - has to - come up among ten kings who are already existing in the fourth kingdom.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The ten crowns are on those ten horns, but before that, the beast had crowns on the seven heads. Each head was successive, meaning only one ruled at a time. With the horns, they are all seen together and will rule at the same time in the future until the antichrist arises (humbling three before him) and they all give their authority unto him.


The only time the beast has crowns on the seven heads is in Revelation 12. There are 7 years left. The heads have the crowns at that one place in Revelation because the 7th king, the Antichrist Man, has come to power. It just means that the fulfillment of the successive 7 kings has been completed. I am not saying that the 7 kings rule at one time. :a2:

The seventh head comes to power "after" the ten kings (horns) are in place already according to Daniel 7. The ten kings, the ten horns, do not have crowns in Revelation 12 because their crowns are tied to the Antichrist man when he has morphed into the Antichrist beast in Revelation 13.

We agree that the 7 heads, the seven kings, are successive. We also agree that the ten kings are end times concurrent with each other.

But to keep the debate going, the beast can represent more than one kingdom. The beast has incorporated the likeness of the lion, bear, and leopard into its very being. This can only be explained with Daniel 7 as a background. Since the Roman Empire digested the previous three (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece) that means the beast is more than just one kingdom. This is Satan's overall empire plan spanning the ages. This explains why the dragon was awaiting at the beginning of time to devour the Messiah.


The beast can represent only the fourth kingdom - one kingdom - because in Daniel 7 it was four beasts representing four kingdoms. The concept is that each beast represents one specific kingdom.

I do have a solution to offer you considering the lion, bear, and leopard. And the fourth beast - which was the Roman Empire - which for the end times prophecies, itself seems to conflict with Mystery Babylon the Great of the end times. Here it is:

The fourth kingdom is the Roman Empire. The beast in Revelation 17 was the Roman Empire, in spirit, in function, in territory. The beast in Revelation 12 and 13 is the end times Roman Empire - but the status of the beast is not the Roman Empire in spirit and function as was in John's day.

The end times Roman Empire, if you can accept it, is the EU. But the EU does not function as the old Roman Empire.
The EU has many different countries participating in its central government on an equal basis. The old Roman Empire at John's time never had that; it was the Romans themselves only in their Senate and as their Emperor. Completely different, the spirit and functioning of the EU is that of Mystery Babylon the Great. So the EU "in spirit" is Mystery Babylon the Great. The clues can be no greater than that of their parliament building - which is a grand take-off on the Tower of Babel. Which also ties the beast spirit in the bottomless pit to Nimrod.

In Revelation 13, the body of the beast of Daniel 7's fourth beast has morphed into the end times Roman Empire of the Antichrist beast, with 42 months to go. So at some time in the future when the Antichrist man is killed, the EU will have gained dominion over the territories of the other three former empires. That territory will be the kingdom that the other ten kings receive for one hour with the Antichrist beast in Revelation 17. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Regarding the EU being the end times Roman Empire out of which the ten horns, the ten kings, grow, I can't say for certain that the office of those ten kings is in place. Right now, it looks like the ten leaders of the WEU. But the WEU is supposedly to be reorganized this year into something else. Also with the monetary crisis with the PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain) there may be a ten king group materialize out of that situation. And it may be out of a financial block of ten kings, that the Antichrist man removes three. It is not abundantly certain right now.

Have you ever considered that the Roman Empire is more of a physical territorial factor, while the Mystery Babylon the Great is more of a spiritual factor? The EU features both considerations.


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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby The Orange Mailman on Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:40 pm

Hello Douggg-

Hi Orange, please bear with me. The problem with putting the ten horns on the seventh head is that it indicates that the ten kings grow out of that seventh head. That presents a conflict with Daniel 7. If we agree that the Antichrist MAN is the seventh king, then he - has to - come up among ten kings who are already existing in the fourth kingdom.


The antichrist is the eighth. See Revelation 17:11. The seventh is the arrangement of ten kings ruling, see Revelation 17:16-17. They hand their authority over to the eighth meaning they are the seventh. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes up among the ten.

Your theory about the views of the Roman Empire seen from a different point of view in different visions falls short in my honest opinion. Why would Satan himself be pictured as a 7 headed ten horned dragon who dragged down a third of the stars (a third of the angels) at the dawn of time. Something has to incorporate all of Satan’s working throughout history and the view of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece for the five that have fallen does just that. Also, it seems more than just a coincidence that characteristics of all four beasts of Daniel 7 are seen as dimensions in the body of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 (lion, bear, leopard, ten horns). As far as the EU, I am open to developments as they occur, but I strongly believe that the ten kings will be located in both the eastern and western portions of the old Roman Empire.

Have you ever considered that the Roman Empire is more of a physical territorial factor,


This lines up with what I am suggesting. The countries mentioned in the classic end times passages are those in the middle east, which was the eastern portion of the Roman Empire. I have presented my view and said my piece. Perhaps others will share how there view relates to yours.

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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby Douggg on Sat Jan 15, 2011 3:04 am

The Orange Mailman wrote:Hello Douggg-

Hi Orange, please bear with me. The problem with putting the ten horns on the seventh head is that it indicates that the ten kings grow out of that seventh head. That presents a conflict with Daniel 7. If we agree that the Antichrist MAN is the seventh king, then he - has to - come up among ten kings who are already existing in the fourth kingdom.


The antichrist is the eighth. See Revelation 17:11. The seventh is the arrangement of ten kings ruling, see Revelation 17:16-17. They hand their authority over to the eighth meaning they are the seventh. The little horn of Daniel 7 comes up among the ten.


Hi Orange, it would be helpful if you would say eighth what. And distinguish between the Antichrist man and the Antichrist beast. The Antichrist beast will be the eighth king. In order to be the eighth king, the series of seven kings has to have been completed and king #7 dead. In Revelation 13, the mortally wounded head is king #7. There are no crowns on any of the heads in Revelation 13, because the last of the 7 kings has died, with 42 months left in the 7 years.

Okay, lets look at Revelation 17:16-17, 16And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

(Orange) "The seventh is the arrangement of ten kings ruling, see Revelation 17:16-17."

I think you are saying that the 7th "kingdom" is a kingdom made up of ten kings. If so, what you are trying to do is making the seven heads as seven kingdoms. In Daniel 7, it is only the beast that represent both a king and a kingdom. In Revelation, again, it is only the beast itself as a kingdom (the fourth empire) and a king (the eighth king).

There is no 7th kingdom in Daniel 2 or Daniel 7. In Daniel 7, little horn comes up among ten existing kings on the fourth kingdom. The ten horns are on the beast, the fourth kingdom, in Revelation 17...12, 13.

Your theory about the views of the Roman Empire seen from a different point of view in different visions falls short in my honest opinion. Why would Satan himself be pictured as a 7 headed ten horned dragon who dragged down a third of the stars (a third of the angels) at the dawn of time.


Satan is pictured as also being represented by the beast in Revelation 12 because the vision with the woman identified as Israel, begins at the time of Jesus's birth, 12:2. It was Satan's plan to destroy Jesus at birth. In 12:5, the resurrected Jesus has been caught up to heaven. The previous historic workings of Satan to destroy Israel are not part of the vision.

Verse 12:6 leaps 2000 years to the end times and the first half of the 7 years, the 1260 days. During the 2000 years, Satan has tried to destroy the Jews; hitler being the most notable of his tools. The Jews returned to the land of Israel, which is the place prepared for her of God in 12:6. Satan continues to try and destroy Israel all the way through the 7 years, and in great wrath as he is kicked down to earth at the midpoint, with a time, times, half time left - i.e the second half of the seven years.

The crowns on the 7 heads in 12:3, indicate that king #7 has come to power, the last of the seven kings...with 12:6 and 12:14, 1260 days and the time, times, and half times totaling the 7 years before him.
Something has to incorporate all of Satan’s working throughout history and the view of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece for the five that have fallen does just that.


I am assuming you are talking about Satan working against Israel. The beast in Revelation 12 is the Roman Empire. Those other historic empires are not included. Revelation 12 covers the time from the birth of Jesus (at the time of the Roman Empire). Satan attempts to kill the woman's child. And when he fails, Satan attempts to destroy the woman, also during the end times Roman Empire.

The other empires which you are trying to force fit by mis-interpreting the seven heads as being seven kingdoms are not included in Revelation 12 or 17. In Revelation 13, the territories of three of the empires you mention, are territory that the end-times Roman Empire gains dominance over - with 42 months left to go. Assyria and Egypt are not even mentioned in Daniel 2 or Daniel 7.

Also, it seems more than just a coincidence that characteristics of all four beasts of Daniel 7 are seen as dimensions in the body of the beast from the sea in Revelation 13 (lion, bear, leopard, ten horns). As far as the EU, I am open to developments as they occur, but I strongly believe that the ten kings will be located in both the eastern and western portions of the old Roman Empire.


In Revelation 13, that is the status of the beast, the end times Roman Empire, with 42 months left. The EU has not gained dominance over those other three ancient empire yet. When Gog/Magog takes place immediately before the 7 years, the void created, will be filled by the EU as they move into those regions, lead by the little horn - growing strong to the South, East, toward Israel. By the time halfway through the seven years, the EU will have gained dominance in the area of those other three ancient kingdoms. The motivation is obvious, the EU's need to control the oil.

Peace,


Doug L.
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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby rizen on Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:15 am

Since this is always a fun (and heated) debate, I'll issue this challenge for any of the seven heads equal seven kingdom proponents out there.

In Revelation 17:11, we are told that the "scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 17:3 "was". If the time period in which this scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 17:3 "was" is the same time period in which the great red dragon of Rev. 12:3 is depicted in Rev. 12:1-4, then the "kingdom" theorists have a problem.

The problem would go something like this:

1. Revelation 12:1-4 took place during the Augustan Era - When scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 17:3 "was" (Rev. 17:11).

2. In Revelation 17:11, we are told that the scarlet-colored beast "is not". This tells us that when the book of Revelation was written (I believe 95 A.D.) that the scarlet-colored beast "is not". Therefore, Rev. 17:11 tells us that something happened to the scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 17:3 in the intervening years between Augustus (when he "was" in 2 B.C.) and Domitian (when he "is not" in 95 A.D.).

3. Note that in the intervening eras between Augustus and Domitian, the kingdom itself (Roman) has remained the same. Nothing about the kingdom itself has changed.

The questions would then go something like this:

1. While the scarlet-colored beast of Rev. 17:3 "is not" (Rev. 17:11) in 95 A.D., we are told in Rev. 17:10 that the "sixth" is. If the sixth is a "kingdom", then what exactly is it that "is not" when the sixth kingdom is? Furthermore, what exactly was it that "was" during the Augustan Era when the scarlet-colored beast "was" ('great red dragon' of Rev. 12:1-4)?

2. The great red dragon is depicted with seven crowns in its seven heads. This should tell us that whatever "is not" during the Domitian Era (when the sixth "is") actually "was" during the Augustan Era. This begs the question, is the thing that "was" during the Augustan Era among the "five fallen" described in Rev. 17:10?

The summary:

3. If the thing that "was" is among the "five fallen" described in Rev. 17:10, then the seven heads must depict seven kings since the only thing that has changed between 2 B.C. and 95 A.D. are "kings".
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Re: Revelation 7 kings or 7 kingdoms?

Postby laney on Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:19 pm

:dizzy:
"Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be [people] of courage; be strong." (1 Cor. 16:13
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