Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

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Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:18 pm

How would the news impact you if you suddenly knew – from receipt of the evidence – that Daniel’s ‘70th week’ started in 2010; that the Abomination of Desolation event will therefore take place in 2013; and that Our Lord will return in 2016; and the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ will commence in 2017?

The above is a very real possibility – based upon an amazing analysis of Daniel 9 and the Book of Revelation.

And straightaway, of course, if the above is true, there was NO pre-trib rapture!

I’m pretty sure I know what you are thinking now!

If you are anything like me you have probably recoiled in shock and distaste, and thought NO WAY!

Yeah. That’s what I thought until I took the time to hear the analysis; see the Biblical linkages; and observe with ‘fresh eyes’ what has become of the world around me.

To say I am a bit stunned would be an understatement. But I have been through everything set out in the presentation of the above (which I will give you the link to below) twice now. And I am about to go through it again, very carefully, taking detailed notes and cross-referencing anything I have not fully understood before.

I think Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks may be another example of a Biblical ‘dual prophecy’, one mode of interpretation clearly pointing to the entry of the Messiah into Jerusalem at Passover, 32 A.D., and His subsequent crucifixion (69 weeks), and a second mode of interpretation – just as valid as you will see – that prophecies the EXACT timing of the ‘last day events’ (With the70 weeks, now looked at as 70 Shavuots – Shavuot (Hebrew) means “weeks": The Feast of Weeks – or 70 Feasts of Pentecost, of which there is one a year. So 70 years.)

An obvious example of a dual prophecy (also occurring in Daniel) is the reference to the ‘little horn’ in Chapter 8; 9-12., which is often considered by many to prophesy both Antiochus Epiphanies and his desecration of the Temple in 168 BC (by banning the Jewish sacrifices, erecting an altar to Zeus in the Temple, and slaughtering a pig on the altar!), which sparked off the Maccabean revolt, and also prophesying the end times ‘anti-Christ’ still to be revealed of whom Antiochus was a foreshadowing type.

Does it seem so unreasonable then, that Daniel’s 70 week prophecy (Chpt 9; 24-27) should contain a dual prophecy, both of which refer to the Messiah, and which independently spell out for us (when unravelled) The Messiah’s First Coming and His Second?

And it is only recently that we would have the evidence building up in such a way that it could be unlocked. The birth of Israel (declared a ‘nation in a day’, May 14 1948), and the date of the UN Resolution (29 November 1947 – Resolution No: 181) ‘commanding’ the ‘going forth and establishing’ of a new, independent State of Israel, are crucial.

In fact, the UN Resolution – the command or worldwide authorisation to restore Israel as a nation – is the start of the clock (running for a ‘generation’ – i.e. 70 years – during which ‘all these things’ shall come to pass! 1947 + 70 = 2017)

Just like the starting of the clock for Messiah’s first advent with the command to go forth and restore Jerusalem given by Artaxerxes Longimanus (in response to Nehemiah’s request) on 1st of Nisan B.C. 445. (14th March 445 BC by our Gregorian Calendar)

Both prophecies and their dates are precise and one of a kind. The first based on 70 weeks of 7 years each (a day for a year) from the start date; the second based on 70 ‘feasts of Shavuot’ – or 70 years from the second start date.
Our Messiah may well be here within the next seven years.

Kind of causes goose bumps once you get over the initial reaction of automatic denial (a natural reaction, because we think ‘why has this not been spelled out by some great Bible scholar before?’), and start to take it on board.

2016.

Now, there is far too much for me to summarise and explain from scratch here in a message post, and there is a very clear 2 hour presentation here:

Daniel’s Timeline:

http://www.waytozion.org/video/stream/timeline/timeline.html

I suggest you just watch it through first. Then for a second viewing be armed with pencil and paper and Bible, or E-Sword on, so you can pause and look things up for your own satisfaction and confirmation of what is presented.

The above link is to the 2 hour Video – pretty good quality.

Below is the start link to the You Tube presentation (in 12 parts) (not quite such good quality):

Daniels Timeline - Part 1 of 12 - Understanding End Time Prophecy/Tribulation Period:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1bkB1nS ... r_embedded


And here is the ‘Daniel’s Timeline’ website. (But the video is easier to comprehend for a first hearing of these details – then come back to the text notes.)

http://danielstimeline.com/danielstimeline.html

And another website by someone who seems as excited as I was when this began to sink in, and started to ‘check out’ under all my own follow ups of ‘Biblical feasts’, ‘Shavuot’, historical dates, etc.):

‘End Times’

http://srbn.livejournal.com/2010/07/16/


I urge you not to instinctively recoil from this evidence and knowledge.

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4: 6)

More and more it all seems so much beyond coincidence to me the way this prophecy (of the Second Coming) seems to fall easily into place once you refresh your mind on a few basics. And if it is correct – and I’m beginning to come to that conclusion as I study it – we will soon be receiving some pretty powerful confirmations.

It means the Anti-Christ and False Prophet are alive and well among us, for a start, and it certainly begins to make a ‘rapture’ of the Church seem doubtful. But again, don’t refuse to look at what may be truly important because of attachments to prior belief. We have to have ‘the love of Truth within us’ first and foremost. That is part of the love of Our Lord. ‘I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life.’

The Holy Spirit is also ‘The Spirit of Truth’.

And it also seems to me just like our God, that He would conceal two prophecies relating to His Son’s two advents in one prophetic vision, and with the one relating to the latter times not becoming accessible and visible until these last days!

“And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
“Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
“Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
“But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” (Dan 12: 9-13)

Our Lord may be arriving on this suffering planet much sooner than many of us had been expecting!

Imagine that.

We may well be the ones to actually witness Our Messiah’s return. But this time not as ‘the suffering servant’ and ‘sacrificial lamb’, but as the Judge of Nations – the Lion of Judah.

God Bless

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 4givenmuch on Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:55 pm

I hope you are right! I welcome His soon return!
Seek Humility!
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby HighBeams on Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:51 pm

Hi, Stephen!

I haven't had a chance yet to go through all of this stuff you've posted, but I have a question already. Are you saying that there is no Rapture at all, or just that it is not a pre-Trib event?

Thanks in advance for clarifying this for me. :grin:
Cindy

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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:25 pm

Hi HB,

I don’t want to say there is NO rapture because I do not know.

As for my own views (at this time) I am one of those people not convinced that the ‘rapture’ is truly Biblical. At least not in the sense of all the world’s believing Christians, (plus all pre-pubescent – i.e. ‘innocent’ – children, and newborn babies) being lifted clear of Planet Earth and disappearing from view to those ‘left behind.’

I do believe that God can quite easily protect those He wishes to – like Daniel in the Lion’s den – through any sort of world tribulation or cataclysm. So I see no need to be lifted clear out of the ‘danger zone.’

I was really thinking that if the ‘70th week of Daniel’ has now begun to unfold, we are still all here. So that would tend to contradict ‘pre-trib’.

But I really do not want to criticise the conclusions anyone else has come to, regarding pre-, mid-, or post-tribulation, or to cast gloom over anyone to whom such a faith is held dear.

My own view is that faithful Christians will be alright in the end – when all this escalating world horror is over – whether they are raptured or not. And if there is a rapture I’m sure the faithful will be raptured regardless of whether they believe in the rapture or not – or even if they have never heard of it.

“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Mat 24; 13)

God Bless

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby jgilberAZ on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:26 pm

2 Timothy 2:24a..And the servant of the Lord must not strive ...
The meaning is, that the servant of Christ should be a man of peace. He should not indulge in the feelings which commonly give rise to contention, and which commonly characterize it. He should not struggle for mere victory, even when endeavoring to maintain truth; but should do this, in all cases, with a kind spirit, and a mild temper; with entire candor; with nothing designed to provoke and irritate an adversary; and so that, whatever may be the result of the discussion, "the bond of peace" may, if possible, be preserved.
.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Douggg on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:31 pm

Hi Stephen, if you believe that the last 7 years has begun already, what started it?

Doug L.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:45 pm

Hi jgilber AZ,

Old news:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=54709&p=475603


Don't know how I missed that! I did look for similar posts, but somehow missed them.

Oh well, I'll take a look and read what others have already made of the info.

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:09 pm

Stephen wrote:I don’t want to say there is NO rapture because I do not know.

As for my own views (at this time) I am one of those people not convinced that the ‘rapture’ is truly Biblical.


Hi Steven,

I posted the same concern a couple years ago. You may be interested in looking at the responses I received when I expressed my doubt that there was a rapture as being taught today. I believe my post caused the thread to be separated as it went off into a different tangent, so it may start off a bit strange since it was "attached" to another thread initially.

At any rate, you can read it here if you are interested. The topic is called "Is there a rapture?"
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby JohnE on Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:12 pm

I'm with Stephen on this. I am in complete awe at the perfect power of our GOD. I just got done watching all 12 segments on the youtube link. COMPLETE AWE. :a3: & :bowing: Praise the LORD.

I truly believe it won't be long until we see more of the signs you all (I'm still to new to the board to say we!) have been discussing since the forum started, let's not be like the church officials that missed the first coming! I want to be one of the wisemen that were watching and knew. I was absolutely blown away by the way all the verses, that have confused me for years, became clear and cohesive.
I also must share a thought that came to me as I was watching. There is in Revelation, the prophecy of the women fleeing into the desert to a "place prepared by GOD". What struck me was the feeling of an answer to the question we often see - where is America/U.S.A. mentioned in prophecy? Surely if we are in the end times, the "most powerful nation on earth" (at least we were) must be mentioned somewhere.
If we (USA) are in fact the place that GOD has prepared for the Jews to flee (and that was the feeling I had), we had better get on the stick! I certainly hope that is the case, lest we most likely be "modern day Babylon".

Either way, again I reiterate, how perfect is GOD's word to us? AWESOME!

He will be here soon brothers and sisters!
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:19 am

Hi Doug,

if you believe that the last 7 years has begun already, what started it?


I had the same question as I watched this prophetic interpretation for the first time.

Then it dawned on me.

As this is a complete 70 year (‘70 weeks’) interpretation, without a gap and a separated period of 7 years (which we then have to try and spot the re-commencement of – to see the ‘prophetic clock start running’ again) the start date is the start of the 70 year prophecy.

I.e., the international command – through United Nations Resolution 181 on 29 November 1947 – to re-establish the state of Israel, and establish (i.e. rebuild and develop) JERUSALEM as an INTERNATIONAL CITY.

The command to go forth and rebuild Jerusalem – capital of Israel – doesn’t get much clearer than that in practice.

And it’s the SECOND time such a command has been given, specifically mentioning Jerusalem (and obviously incorporating the ‘nation’) as opposed to just the Temple. The first time being the command of Artaxerxes Longimanus on 14th March 445 BC (by our Gregorian Calendar).

(According to the UN, Jerusalem was supposed to remain an ‘international city’ thereafter. Never to be under the direct control of the Jews. But that’s not what God said! So Jerusalem was captured by the Jews in the Six Day War of 1967 and they now manage it.)

The separation of the years (weeks) in the Prophecy – 62, 7 and 1 – and the ‘days’ given – 1335, 1290 and 1260 – cleverly give the keys to unlocking events and dates once you know the precise starting point.

And that is how this interpretation unfolds. And reveals some startling correspondences with notable Hebrew dates, Holy Feasts (which are a coded prophecy in themselves), and historical events pertaining to Israel.

We were only looking for a start point for the ‘70th week of Daniel’ because the most popular Biblical interpretation deals with 69 weeks (i.e. 483 years as ‘a day for a ‘week’) then stops the clock so that we are in an unspecified gap period. That left us with one separated week – now in abeyance for more than 2,000 years.

So then we obviously have to look for a sign that indicates the ‘prophetic clock’ has re-started and is ‘running’ once again, and the final 7 years has begun.

There is, incidentally, another interpretation for the first coming that sees the 70th week as starting with the beginning of Our Lord’s ministry (i.e. His baptism by John); his being cut off at the mid-point (i.e. His Crucifixion); and the passing of the Word to the gentiles, following the repudiation of the Gospel and Jesus Christ by the ‘official’ Jewish clergy at the martyrdom of Stephen, and the subsequent conversion of Paul, three and a half years later. So by this prophetic interpretation, Daniel’s prophecy of the First Coming of Our Lord, etc., had been completely fulfilled by 35 AD. That left people saying: ‘That can’t be right. Everything hasn’t yet been fulfilled! The end of sin? The coming of righteousness?’ Hence the separated week interpretation. However, we now seem to discover a second prophetic interpretation – relating to the Second Coming of Our Lord – within the same prophetic vision! Neat.

Steve Wohlberg propounds the above interpretation (as well as looking at some other things that might startle some of us) very coherently:

End Time Delusions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2481543922035335839#

I can quite easily accept that the 7 year period identified within the ‘end times’ has started in 2010, by looking at all the things that have happened this year, and where they are definitely leading! Financial collapse and chaos; escalating war – possibly involving Iran and N and S Korea; the deluded hypnosis of a public fed mind-controlling media and their own refusal to even look at what is really happening; the gallop toward the One World Order – a system to be set up for Anti-Christ to enter; proliferation of Satanism and New Age pagan religion; bio-genetic engineering, creating bio-logical (and Demonic) hybrids; etc.

I would expect the next events to be serious conflict in the Middle East – perhaps another ‘surprise attack’ on Israel by the surrounding Muslim nations; appearance of an ‘anti-Christ’ figure – appearing suddenly out of nowhere and sending the world into a swoon (was Barack Obama a trial run?!); the Jewish altar sacrifice re-instated on Temple Mount, followed by desecration of the altar/temple (in 2013), etc.

So we don’t have long to wait. And everything does seem to me to be coming to a head. To be intensifying.

BUT … I refuse to hold uncritically to anything.

I trust in the Lord, and am absolutely convinced everything will work out as He intends, even if we get the fine detail of biblical prophecy a bit out of sync.

I was very much taken with a quote I came across by Alvin Tofler, author of the 1980s book ‘Future Shock’. He said:

"The illiterates of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."

That’s the key, Doug. We must be prepared to “learn, unlearn, and relearn", and not hold tenaciously to old beliefs just because they are old beliefs and we have become emotionally comfortable with them. Our Lord expects more of us. We must struggle to understand the ‘signs of the times’, so that we are ready and able to explain to others around us what is happening in a world that, I believe, is soon going to become very surreal indeed.

According to the Bible the very pit of Hell is to be opened, and men’s hearts will fail for ‘sight of the things to come upon the Earth.’

I’m not saying categorically to anyone that the prophecy interpretation here is definitely correct. I want to study it further. But the correspondences and the way it falls into place from the crucial date of 29 November 1947 is compelling. And that date would obviously be a very meaningful one to our God! The command going forth for the return of ‘His people’ to rebuild their homeland which He gave to them!

Sounds like a great contender for a ‘prophecy start date’ to me!

But I’m still learning … and am prepared to ‘unlearn and relearn.’

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby christian_m0mmy on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:56 am

:nothingtoadd:
Col 2:6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him

Col 2:6 You have accepted Christ Jesus as your Lord. Now keep on following him.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:17 am

Stephen wrote:"The illiterates of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."

That’s the key, Doug. We must be prepared to “learn, unlearn, and relearn", and not hold tenaciously to old beliefs just because they are old beliefs and we have become emotionally comfortable with them. Our Lord expects more of us. We must struggle to understand the ‘signs of the times’, so that we are ready and able to explain to others around us what is happening in a world that, I believe, is soon going to become very surreal indeed.


:a3:

and :blessyou: Stephen

Nice to here from someone who can understand the importance of learning to learn.
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Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:05 am

Hi All,

I just want to interject here a thought that has struck me today very forcibly. And I can’t help but communicate it to you.

Namely:

As we debate all these things, prophecy and our understanding of Biblical scripture, can you even begin to imagine a world into which Our Lord, Jesus Christ, had never been born, and no scripture had been given us?

Truly we would have been lost in a ‘Hell on Earth.’

We have been given much.

And we are promised so much more.

“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.” (1 Cor 2; 9)

However prophecy unfolds, it is only a short time we are here my friends.

Hold fast. Through all the ‘great tribulation’ if necessary.

Even if, like Peter, we are ‘led to places we would not go’ … it comes to an end.

And then we receive the gift of eternity in the presence of God.

The things of this world – all wealth, all nations, all sensual pleasure – are a worthless exchange for that promise.

Watching Bob Dylan as he admits he ‘made a deal’ with the ‘ruler of this world’, and ‘the world we can’t see’ (his words), to obtain his worldly success (‘to get where I am now’), makes me so sad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqvvOD4bdRs

God Bless to everyone.

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby tharkun on Fri Dec 17, 2010 6:22 pm

Stephen, I watched this through when it was posted on the board awhile back and I remember I had two big reservations about his theory:

1)If the 70 years, as he interprets them started in the last century, how does he explain the messiah being cut-off after 62 weeks? He never once tries to even offer a theory that I can remember. For such an expllicit statement in Daniel, it seems odd that he doesn't even address it. In fact, it seems a huge hole in his theory. He seems to agree that the Messiah is Jesus and yet doesn't explain how Jesus was cut-off in the past 70 years.

2) Even without the glaring hole from the above, he contradicts his own interpretation of 'shabua' halfway through his explanation. He gives the different possible definitions (week of days, week of years or week of weeks- a Shavuot), and picks one that he likes (Shavuot - week of weeks) without explaining why he prefers one definition of the other. Apparently because that definition makes his theory work. But the problem is that he begins by defining each 'shabua' of the 70 'shabua' of Daniel as a single year (because there is only one Shavuot per year, therefore 70 years). But he only sticks with that for the first 62 shabua. He then switches and changes to the weeks of years interpretation and treats the last 7 years as a single 'shabua'. He started with one shabua = one year and ends with one shabua = 7 years, and he doesn't even point out the switch. He doesn't give any textual reason for changing the meaning in the middle of the passage. Again it seems he does it because it makes his theory work.

His info on the manna week and using that to aling the calendar is interesting and I don't have any problems with it; but his endtimes theory is just wrong as I see it. He believes it obviously; but there are some major problems he needs to address. Hope this helps.

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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:30 am

Hi Tharkun,

Good questions.

I appreciate this questioning because it enables us to ‘test’ the prophecy, and if we find anything that is obviously contradictory to what we know – or plain impossible in the circumstances – we’ll throw it out.

At the moment, however, I’m prepared to give it a positive hearing, and will attempt to answer all critical questions. And when I have no answer I will tell you.

So…

how does he explain the messiah being cut-off after 62 weeks? He never once tries to even offer a theory that I can remember. For such an expllicit statement in Daniel, it seems odd that he doesn't even address it. In fact, it seems a huge hole in his theory.


What we appear to have is a dual prophecy about Our Lord’s First and Second Coming, both prophecies contained in one prophetic vision. (Daniel 9: 24-27)

We have to dis-entangle the two prophecies.

The first prophecy (treating ‘weeks’ as days for a year – i.e. 7 years in each ‘week’) clearly prophesied the execution of Our Lord. Therefore the ‘cutting off’ of the Messiah is a critical part of this FIRST prophecy about Our Lord’s First Coming.

(But that is easy for us to see now. Remember, however, that it remained hidden to those studying Old Testament prophecy prior to Christ’s crucifixion, because they simply could not conceive of the coming Messiah being, arrested, tortured and crucified as a common criminal. Because of that ‘blind spot’ to the possibility of such an event, they missed the clear references to the Messiah’s death scattered throughout the Old Testament.)

The SECOND prophecy, which is the one we are dealing with here, is interpreted by a different path, treating ‘weeks’ as Shavuots (literally ‘Feast – or Festival – of Weeks’!), and utilising the timings given in Daniel of both various numbers of days, and his division of the 70 ‘weeks’. It does NOT say anything about the Messiah being executed – or ‘cut off’.

And for a very good reason

Our Lord is not returning this second time as a ‘sacrificial lamb’, to face a repetition of His agony on the cross, but rather His return this time will be as the ‘Lion of Judah’, the Judge of Nations. He is not going to be ‘cut off’ again. Therefore, the way the second prophecy unfolds makes no mention of such an event. Because it is not going to happen this time.

In your second question you said:

He gives the different possible definitions (week of days, week of years or week of weeks- a Shavuot), and picks one that he likes (Shavuot - week of weeks) without explaining why he prefers one definition of the other.


And then:

Apparently because that definition makes his theory work.


That is exactly right!

Because treating each week as referring to the annual festival of Shavuot – i.e. one week for a year – unlocks this second prophecy.

The ‘first coming of Our Messiah’ prophecy was unlocked by treating each week as being a ‘seven of years’, i.e. a year for a day.

Why?

Because it worked. It was the key to this FIRST prophecy.

Obviously a literal 70 weeks was no good; neither was 70 years. Because Messiah had not come by the end of those periods. Clearly, then, the ‘year for a day’ measure of time is used in the FIRST prophecy because it fits and makes sense.

But we only know that now with certainty because the event of the Messiah’s coming has happened.

Those who were studying scriptural prophecy before Christ’s advent failed to recognise what the ‘cutting off’ of the Messiah actually meant, and failed to recognise His fulfillment of the prophecy when He came. Because they were blinded by their pre-conceived notions of exactly how the Messiah would be and would behave, and appear to have had no conception at the time that Messiah is prophesied to come twice.

Again, we can only be sure of that now with the benefit of hindsight.

And this is one of the wonders (to me at least) of Biblical prophecy. It is so cleverly encoded that it cannot be used by elitist manipulators who can see exactly how everything is going to pan out beforehand. (Like those priests who had studied astronomy and, knowing the times of the eclipse, could then fool the ‘natives’ by pretending they were ‘commanding’ the sun to go dark.)

But after prophetic events have been fulfilled – like Daniel’s sequences of Kingdoms following Baylon – you can clearly see the prophecy fulfilled.

So using a shavuot in this way – indicating a year for a week – the prophesy unlocks ARITHMETICALLY by working through Daniel’s division of the 70 week period into 62, 7 and 1 ‘week’, and also the ‘days’ mentioned of 1335, 1290 and 1260.

It’s a bit like receiving a coded letter containing lines of letters that appear without meaning. Yet you know there is a code hidden in there by ‘equi-distant spacing’. You know, also, that the spacing is going to be either every 3 letters, 5 letters or 7 letters. So you try a 3 letter spacing – and get gibberish. You try a 5 letter spacing – and it remains meaningless. Finally you try the 7 letter spacing and a coherent message is revealed.

Same with the ‘weeks’ of Daniel. In the Hebrew it is perfectly legitimate to treat of weeks as being of days, weeks, or years, or as referring to the annual ‘Feast of Weeks’ (Tabernacles or Pentecost), i.e. shavuot.

You then apply the various ‘spacings’ to the code to see which fits and gives a coherent message.

Obviously ANY 70 year period can be split up in the arithmetic way applied to the SECOND prophecy here. But there is a further constraint. Namely, you are probably not going to get a coherent meaning, consistent with information we already posses, UNLESS YOU HIT THE RIGHT START DATE.

Utilising an obviously important Biblical event (i.e. the second command to establish Israel and build JERUSALEM as an ‘international city’ on 29 November 1947 – which ‘mirrors’ the starting event for the FIRST prophecy), we find some amazing correspondences with important Jewish calendar dates; historical events; and even astrological alignments that appear to reflect some of the statements about the behaviour of heavenly bodies found in the Book of Revelation. (Three eclipses – 2 solar and 1 lunar – for example, immediately following the return of Christ on this timeline, and all within one month! Very unusual!)

At this point it might be useful to review the main 7 Jewish feast days and their prophetic symbolism:

Apr/May

1. Passover - Crucifixion of our Lord, the ‘paschal lamb’. Remission of sin.
2. Unleavened Bread – burial of our Lord who is free of sin (unleavened)
3. First fruits – resurrection of Our Lord


May/Jun

4. Shavuot (Pentecost) – The gift of the Holy Spirit. Birth of Christ’s Church.

ALL The above have been fulfilled by Our Lord.

The following remain:

Sep/Oct

5. Feast of Trumpets – announcement of the return of Our Lord. The angelic trumpet.
6. Atonement (Yom Kippur) – Jesus arrived on Earth as our High Priest, is now Judge.
7. Tabernacles (Succoth) – Also known as ‘the Wedding Feast’. Christ and His Church (those who love Him) are united.

One of many examples of how this second prophecy uncannily inter-weaves with significant Jewish dates and Feast Days, is how the last three feasts – the prophetic events of which have not yet occurred – all fall into place within the 45 day period between Christ’s return to Earth, and the start of the Millennial Kingdom. All the feasts – and the events they pre-figure – are all completed, and fall to be physically celebrated on Earth (i.e. they fit the precise Hebrew calendar dates for these celebrations!), in the period after Christ’s Return and before the commencement of His 1,000 year rule.

But the problem is that he begins by defining each 'shabua' of the 70 'shabua' of Daniel as a single year (because there is only one Shavuot per year, therefore 70 years). But he only sticks with that for the first 62 shabua. He then switches and changes to the weeks of years interpretation and treats the last 7 years as a single 'shabua'. He started with one shabua = one year and ends with one shabua = 7 years, and he doesn't even point out the switch.


I can’t actually locate the section you are referring to here, Tharkun.

But in any event, the prophecy clearly works on a week being a shavuot (perfectly valid), and therefore each week for a year in this second prophecy.

The period runs for a ‘generation’ from 1947 to 2017. I.e. 70 years.

All the rest is arithmetic based upon information from Daniel. I didn’t anywhere see the timescale being expanded or contracted from the basis of 1 week for a year.

Obviously there is reference to a 7 year period in accordance with Daniel’s splitting of the 70 weeks. But this is part of the arithmetic to arrive at various dates. 1 week (as far as I can see) is treated as 1 year throughout.

God Bless,

Steve
Last edited by Stephen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:33 pm

Hi again, Tharkun,

I think I have realised what you are getting at when you said:
But the problem is that he begins by defining each 'shabua' of the 70 'shabua' of Daniel as a single year (because there is only one Shavuot per year, therefore 70 years). But he only sticks with that for the first 62 shabua. He then switches and changes to the weeks of years interpretation and treats the last 7 years as a single 'shabua'. He started with one shabua = one year and ends with one shabua = 7 years, and he doesn't even point out the switch.


Correct me if I have misunderstood you, but I think what you mean is that this ‘second prophecy’ (as I have come to refer to it – unlocked and presented by Dewey Bruton) also refers to ‘Daniel’s missing week’, i.e. 70th week, and incorporates it within the second prophecy.

So I think you are wondering how Daniel’s 70th week is included in this second prophecy, when the prophecy of the Messiah’s First Coming arrives at this week on the basis of a week for 7 years (a day for a year). And the second prophecy is on the basis of ‘a week for a year’. 1 year.

The answer is that the future 'end time' events were future to both prophecies, so the seven year period appears in both, but they were arrived at differently; the first prophecy on the basis of a day for a year; the second prophecy on the basis of a week for a year. Both prophecies made use of Daniel’s division of weeks into three score and two – 62 – and 7.

In the first prophecy, on the basis of a day for a year, 69 weeks (62 + 7) gives us 69 x 7days = 483 years, or 173,880 days. This works out exactly – to the day – as the time period between ‘the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem’, given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on 14 March 445 BC, ‘unto the Messiah the Prince’, Jesus Christ, entering Jerusalem riding on the foal of a donkey, and allowing the crowds – for the only time – to greet Him as the Messiah, on 10th Nisan 32 AD. (6th April 32 by Gregorian Calendar).

4 days later – 14th Nisan, Passover – Our Lord was crucified. ‘Cut off.’

And then the prophetic clock stops. And the ‘time of the gentiles’ comes in. So 69 weeks out of the 70 have been accounted for, leaving 1 week for the ‘End Times.’

And as this first prophecy is based upon a day for a week, that is 7 years.

That 7 year period of the ‘end times’ is obviously crucially important, and is therefore referenced in both prophecies, the first dealing with Christ’s First Coming, the second dealing with Our Lord’s Second coming.

But in the second prophecy it is arrived at by a different method. Taking a day for a year it is simply the ‘7 year’ period separated out and specified by Daniel. 62 years, then 7 years, then 1 year left over.

See how absolutely brilliant this is!

That ‘last week’, after the 69 (70 – 69), forms the basis of the 7 year end times prophecy period of the First Prophecy. One week being 7 years.

And in the second prophecy Daniel's specified '7 weeks' gives us the 7 years of the 'end times', and the ‘last week’ (70 – 69) gives the last period between the second coming of our Lord and the start of the Millennial Kingdom on earth. A period that turns out to be 45 days, and within which actual calendar dates the three final Feasts – Trumpets, Atonement, ‘Wedding Feast’ – are celebrated, symbolising the completion and fulfilment of the prophecy.

I find this absolutely staggering. I am in complete awe the more I study it.

We have a dual prophecy contained within one prophetic vision (Daniel 9 24; 27), one of which prophesises the First Coming of Christ as ‘Messiah’ in 32 AD, and the second of which prophesises the Second Coming of Christ, in 2016 AD, and BOTH of which come together in a 7 year prophecy of the ‘end times’, the second prophecy giving increased detail and calendar dates.

And neither prophecy interferes with or repudiates the other.

They are simply unlocked using different ‘keys’ – a ‘day for a year’ and a ‘week for a year’, both of which happen to be equally valid interpretations of the Hebrew Shabua, or ‘Sevens.’

Is this not truly amazing?

And note that the ‘second prophecy’ couldn’t unlock until the commandment issued by the UN under Resolution 181 had been voted on 29 November 1947! As ‘one of the men clothed in white linen’ said: “Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.” (Dan 12; 9)

If all this is correct – and I will continue studying and cross-referencing the details given – you realise what it means, I trust?

It means the end is close now, and things are about to get a whole lot more intense!

And as far as I can see no-one else is aware of this! The dual prophecy aspect, I mean. So be prepared for ridicule if you begin to expound it to others!

I’m not altogether sure that Dewey Bruton himself realises quite what he has uncovered here. I couldn’t find a reference to ‘two prophecies’ on his site, nor in his video. I think he thinks that this is the correct interpretation of Daniel’s vision, and supersedes the earlier one that obviously focuses on the First Coming of Our Lord.

In any event, if he is correct, then even without noting the ‘dual prophecy’ aspect the second prophecy spells out the timeline, and tells us that the seven year ‘end times’ period has already begun – in 2010. So a number of people will have that information.

It’s just the ‘dual prophecy’ encoded in one vision that has leapt out at me immediately, and really left me awestruck.

And it seems to me to be just the sort of thing Our God would do. Namely incorporate two prophecies focussing on His Son’s First and Second Coming within one prophetic vision, to be unlocked – when the time was right – by two different, but entirely valid ‘keys’ from the Hebrew language that permits of two different time-scales.

And BOTH prophecies start from a commandment to go forth and rebuild the nation, and specifically Jerusalem.

Just let that sink in for a few moments!

I think I will email Dewey Bruton and point this out, and see if he has already come to the same conclusion.

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:28 pm

Hi All,

I emailed Dewey Bruton as mentioned in my last post.

Here is his reply (which he has given me permission to post):

Thanks Steve,

You are so right...... and most still do not understand how the Scripture and Prophecy is multi-layered to fit more than one generation.

Please read the article I did on this some time back........ It is posted on my website. Just click on the link.

Blessings..........Dewey

Prophecy Is Multi-Layered

Most do not understand that prophecy comes multi-layered. For instance, everyone understands how the 70 weeks of Daniel (Dan 9:24-27) meant the First Coming of our Messiah ( 70 X 7 = 490 yrs. ) But..... our Father Himself tells us there is more to Scripture and Prophecy than just the surface meanings……..


Here is the link to the article Dewey mentions:

http://danielstimeline.com/page8.htm

It’s not a long article. Just one page. I do urge you to read it.

Incidentally, I almost fell off my chair when I read what Dewey had written here:

it is just like our Father to use the same Daniel Scriptures (Dan 9:24-27) to reveal, not only our Messiah’s First Coming, but to reveal BOTH… the First and the Second Coming, and He does just that... He is the master at this and He will not be limited.


That was almost word for word the thoughts that dawned on me – and I wrote a couple of times in my posts – as the amazing implications of what Dewey has unravelled dawned on me.

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:31 pm

Stephen wrote:Hi All,

I emailed Dewey Bruton as mentioned in my last post.

Here is his reply (which he has given me permission to post):

Thanks Steve,

You are so right...... and most still do not understand how the Scripture and Prophecy is multi-layered to fit more than one generation.

Please read the article I did on this some time back........ It is posted on my website. Just click on the link.

Blessings..........Dewey

Prophecy Is Multi-Layered

Most do not understand that prophecy comes multi-layered. For instance, everyone understands how the 70 weeks of Daniel (Dan 9:24-27) meant the First Coming of our Messiah ( 70 X 7 = 490 yrs. ) But..... our Father Himself tells us there is more to Scripture and Prophecy than just the surface meanings……..


Here is the link to the article Dewey mentions:

http://danielstimeline.com/page8.htm

It’s not a long article. Just one page. I do urge you to read it.

Incidentally, I almost fell off my chair when I read what Dewey had written here:

it is just like our Father to use the same Daniel Scriptures (Dan 9:24-27) to reveal, not only our Messiah’s First Coming, but to reveal BOTH… the First and the Second Coming, and He does just that... He is the master at this and He will not be limited.


That was almost word for word the thoughts that dawned on me – and I wrote a couple of times in my posts – as the amazing implications of what Dewey has unravelled dawned on me.

God Bless,

Steve


:a3: and :a3: prophetic pun intended :mrgreen:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Douggg on Sun Dec 19, 2010 3:55 pm

Stephen wrote:I can quite easily accept that the 7 year period identified within the ‘end times’ has started in 2010, by looking at all the things that have happened this year, and where they are definitely leading! Financial collapse and chaos; escalating war – possibly involving Iran and N and S Korea; the deluded hypnosis of a public fed mind-controlling media and their own refusal to even look at what is really happening; the gallop toward the One World Order – a system to be set up for Anti-Christ to enter; proliferation of Satanism and New Age pagan religion; bio-genetic engineering, creating bio-logical (and Demonic) hybrids; etc.

I would expect the next events to be serious conflict in the Middle East – perhaps another ‘surprise attack’ on Israel by the surrounding Muslim nations; appearance of an ‘anti-Christ’ figure – appearing suddenly out of nowhere and sending the world into a swoon (was Barack Obama a trial run?!); the Jewish altar sacrifice re-instated on Temple Mount, followed by desecration of the altar/temple (in 2013), etc.

So we don’t have long to wait. And everything does seem to me to be coming to a head. To be intensifying.


Hi Stephen, maybe I missed it, but exactly when in 2010 did the the final 7 years begin? I would like know the date.
And I would like to know what event happened on that date that marks the beginning of the 7 years.

You have given many signs that we are near the 7 years. I think most people here would agree with that. But when the 7 years actually start - for that we need a specific biblical event taking place on that day, not just a day on the calendar.

I’m not saying categorically to anyone that the prophecy interpretation here is definitely correct. I want to study it further. But the correspondences and the way it falls into place from the crucial date of 29 November 1947 is compelling. And that date would obviously be a very meaningful one to our God! The command going forth for the return of ‘His people’ to rebuild their homeland which He gave to them!

Sounds like a great contender for a ‘prophecy start date’ to me!

But I’m still learning … and am prepared to ‘unlearn and relearn.’ Steve


Steve, when the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many. That's when the seven years start. If Dewey's calculations accurately coincide with that event (when it happens), then the theory will prove to be correct :a2: . Right now, you have not given a date, meaning a specific day. "2010" is too general. Again, maybe you have stated the specific day that the 7 years started, and I simply overlooked it. I do not want to diminish your enthusiasm, so please don't take my criticism too harshly. :mrgreen:


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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:01 am

Hi Dougg,

All constructive criticism welcome! Lol!

I don’t want to be fooled – or fool myself – any more than you.

But neither do I want to be like so many at the time of Our Lord’s first coming – i.e. uninformed and completely in error about the ‘signs of the times’.

After all, the end times have to occur to some generation of people. It is just that for many of us it may be a bit of a shock to realise that we – now! – are that generation! We may resist that understanding and acceptance, even as the evidence mounts and mounts … because it ‘can’t REALLY be happening in MY lifetime’ … can it?

In which case Our Lord will come upon us as ‘a thief in the night.’ Instead of as those who walk in daylight!

So far I think the evidence is compelling that we are on the cusp of the 7 year period often referred to as Daniel’s 70th week.

As it happens, I have been looking at the whole issue of the antichrist’s ‘covenant with many’, because it does figure so prominently in the general view of how the end times unfold. But the general view is not necessarily the correct one! Any more than the ‘earth is flat’ because most of the world believe it to be so.

I like the words of Marcus Aurelius:

"The opinion of ten thousand men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject."

And how many really know this subject from other than popular repetitions of the same themes, giving the impression that because so many people talk about the same thing, over and over again, that it is proven beyond question, and it MUST be true!

I am preparing you, Dougg.

Because I have been a bit startled by what I have found as I have looked more deeply than I have before into the antichrist’s ‘covenant with many.’

So put aside any preconceptions and come with me on a journey. We will regroup, and re-consider where we are at, after we get through.

To refresh our memory of the verse in Daniel –

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Dan 9; 27)

The above verse is generally taken to mean something like:

“An antichrist will appear on the scene who, at the beginning of the 7 year period, will negotiate an agreement in the Middle East between Israel and the Arab nations, and part of the agreement will somehow enable the Israelis to rebuild their Temple on Temple Mount, and recommence the ‘daily sacrifice’. The antichrist will then break the agreement after three and a half years, and stop the sacrifice and defile the Temple. And all Hell will then break loose for the remaining three and a half years – a period that has been called ‘the Great Tribulation.’”

Is that a fair summation of the popular view?

Unfortunately, the verse ‘Daniel 9; 27’ doesn’t say that! It doesn’t say anything like that! The popular view is a weaving of speculative imagining as to what ‘could’ happen to fulfill the prophecy. (And this particular view seems mainly to derive from that very speculation propounded by Hal Lindsay in his best selling 1970s book: ‘The Late Great Planet Earth)

Let’s go back and see what the above verse REALLY tells us about this covenant:

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:”

And that’s it! That’s all it says!

All the rest is speculation!

ALL THE REST! Even the assumption that the subject of the phrase is ‘the antichrist’ – which comes from linking the pronoun ‘he’ with the phrase “and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary”, from the previous verse (v 26), and taking ‘the prince that shall come’ to be the antichrist.

And the statement that “in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate”, is just that; i.e. a ‘statement’ about an action. In the verse it doesn’t relate this action to breaking any covenant. It’s just something that ‘he’ does. Whoever ‘he’ is.

And in case you think I am being unnecessarily pedantic about who ‘he’ is, it may surprise some that in the interpretation of this prophecy in earlier centuries (and still today!) – particularly by the great Protestant Reformers – ‘he’ was interpreted as being Jesus Christ!

Why?

Because the decree to restore Jerusalem that was chosen was Longimanus’ decree of 457 BC (in which Jerusalem was given the right to govern itself with its own laws) – and it is possibly a more valid choice than the one popularly used today of 445 BC. And 483 years from that date takes us to 27 AD (457 + 27 – 1 ‘adjustment for no year zero’ = 483) which some calculate as the year of the Messiah’s baptism (start of ministry).

Messiah was then ‘cutoff’ three and a half years later, and caused ‘the sacrifice and the oblation to cease’ – because He was the final and ultimate Sacrifice, the ‘Sacrificial Lamb’, whose death on the Cross made all further sacrifice of animals unnecessary. The sin debt was paid in full! (In fact, the re-instatement of a ‘daily sacrifice’ on Temple Mount would be an affront to Our Lord and Our Father, and shows contempt for Our Lord’s agonising sacrifice on the Cross, which is simply ignored and replaced by animal sacrifices again. So I fail to understand why so many ‘Christians’ seem to get excited at the prospect!)

After a further three and a half years the official Jewish Priesthood finally rejected Christ and His Gospel at the martyrdom of Stephen (at which St Paul was present as a ‘prosecutor’ at the time – a short time before his ‘Damascus Road’ experience), and the Gospel ‘passed to the Gentiles.’ (So … Daniel’s ‘70th Year’ of 7 years by this equally valid prophetic interpretation = Baptism of Our Lord – Crucifixion – Gospel passes to the Gentiles.)

So you can see that the imputing of ‘he’ to antichrist is a fairly recent development!

OK.

I agree we have to go about unlocking the prophetic words. And that is going to involve – initially at least – some speculation as to what the words ‘could’ mean, and attempts to cross-reference and link up with other prophetic statements.

So I am not criticisng sincere attempts at understanding.

I do, however, give little worth to ‘the weight of popular opinion’ on any matter! – as it is usually notoriously incorrect and misguided. I would rather check whatever facts I can uncover for myself.

But I wanted to bring home the starkness of the statement about this ‘covenant’ in Daniel’s prophecy – before we go on to really try and pin it down – and also to show that the current popular understanding is far from being ‘gospel’! (Pun intended!).

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:”

Note that ‘one week’ may be ‘seven years’ (First Prophecy of First Coming of a day for a year), or it may be ‘one year’ (Second Prophecy re Christ’s Second Coming of a week for a year.)

Note also the word ‘confirm.’

This is a translation of the Hebrew word ‘gabar’, which as well as ‘confirm’ means ‘to strengthen’, or ‘give strength’

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H1396

So we can forget about any new agreement (covenant) being drawn up! We are looking for one that already exists, and is to be ‘confirmed’, or ‘re-affirmed’ or ‘strengthened’.

It must also be an agreement ‘with many’. Not just an agreement between one or two ‘parties’.

So we are looking for an existing agreement between ‘many’, that has, or is being, or will be, ‘re-affirmed’ or ‘strengthened’. And, obviously, as the end times prophecies circle inexorably around Israel, and events within and surrounding Jerusalem, we would expect such an agreement to be one involving Israel and the Middles East.

Is there such an agreement.

Yes. There very definitely is. A very important agreement relating to Israel and the Arab Nations …

… and which was ‘re-affirmed’ and ‘strengthened’ in 2010!

It is known as ‘The 2003 Road Map Agreement’

A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent
Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

The U.S. State Department April 30 released the text of the "roadmap" to a permanent solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The roadmap specifies the steps for the two parties to take to reach a settlement, and a timeline for doing so, under the auspices of the Quartet - the United States, the European Union, the United Nations, and Russia.

Following is the text of the roadmap:


Office of the Spokesman
Washington, DC
April 30, 2003

A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent
Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

The following is a performance-based and goal-driven roadmap, with clear phases, timelines, target dates, and benchmarks aiming at progress through reciprocal steps by the two parties in the political, security, economic, humanitarian, and institution-building fields, under the auspices of the Quartet [the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia]. The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush's speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/A+Performance-Based+Roadmap+to+a+Permanent+Two-Sta.htm

I’d like you to note the following about the paragraph above:

It is a ‘covenant’ with ‘many’ – Israel and Palestine, and overseers (known as ‘the quartet’) the United States, European Union, United Nations, and Russia. And if you go the web page and look at paragraph 3 of the document, you will find the following:

based on the foundations of the Madrid Conference, the principle of land for peace, UNSCRs 242, 338 and 1397, agreements previously reached by the parties, and the initiative of Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah - endorsed by the Beirut Arab League Summit - calling for acceptance of Israel as a neighbor living in peace and security, in the context of a comprehensive settlement. This initiative is a vital element of international efforts to promote a comprehensive peace on all tracks, including the Syrian-Israeli and Lebanese-Israeli tracks.


So it also involves previous agreements, involving Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, the Beirut Arab League summit, and ‘peace on all tracks’ including Syrian-Israeli and Lebanese-Israeli tracks.

I don’t think we can get much more ‘many’ than that lot!!!

Now … note the phrase in the first paragraph (non-italics) in the first quote above. Namely:

The destination is a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005, as presented in President Bush's speech of 24 June, and welcomed by the EU, Russia and the UN in the 16 July and 17 September Quartet Ministerial statements.


“… a final and comprehensive settlement of the Israel-Palestinian conflict by 2005”

Well … that hasn’t happened, has it?!

A little ‘confirming’ – or ‘strengthening’ – needed here, do you think?

Yep. Indeedy.

And we got it!

First of all there was a ‘one-off’ conference at Annapolis, Maryland, hosted by the US Government, over 25-27 November 2007, re-affirming the goal of the ‘two-state solution’ to the ‘Israeli-Palestinian’ conflict.

This definitely added to the ‘many’ – big time!

So ‘many’, in fact, that instead of listing all the attendees I will just direct you to the Reuters web page that does!

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2643921820071127?sp=true

I think the Angel Gabriel was ‘bang on’ about the ‘many’! Lol!

Also, we should now all be getting an impression about how important this treaty/covenant is becoming. It seems to be gathering importance over time rather like a growing snowball rolling down a mountainside gathers more snow.

This is no ‘side agreement’ on trade, or an ‘arms deal’ between one or two nations!

Anyway, things didn’t really get all that much better even after the ‘many’ had their conference at Annapolis in 2007.

So definitely some more ‘confirming’ and ‘strengthening’ required!

And this is where it gets interesting!

One of the first things President Obama did after being elected to the Oval Office, was go to Turkey and declare (before the Turkish Parliament at the Grand National Assembly Complex in Ankara) his ‘personal goal’ of seeing the 2003 Road Map Agreement through to completion. This first confirming by the President took place on 6th April 2009.

”Introduced as “Barack Hussein Obama,” the president told the assembly that he planned to push for a two-state solution in the Middle East, despite the view of many foreign policy experts that such a goal will be even more difficult to reach because of the makeup of the new Israeli government under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, not to mention the fractured state of internal Palestinian politics.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/world/europe/07prexy.html?_r=2

But it gets better!

That was just a preliminary ‘confirming’ and ‘strengthening’, apparently.

Because two months later, on 4 June 2009, President Obama confirms his personal commitment to the 2003 Road Map yet again. This was in his famous ‘New Beginnings’ speech at Cairo University that won him the Nobel Peace Prize.

”For decades then, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It's easy to point fingers -- for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought about by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: The only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security. (Applause.)

“That is in Israel's interest, Palestine's interest, America's interest, and the world's interest. And that is why I intend to personally pursue this outcome with all the patience and dedication that the task requires. (Applause.) The obligations -- the obligations that the parties have agreed to under the road map are clear. For peace to come, it is time for them -- and all of us -- to live up to our responsibilities.”


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Cairo-University-6-04-09/

Then, on 30 April 2010.

Israeli officials: Obama to call world summit if Mideast peace talks fail

U.S. President Barack Obama has told several European leaders that if Israeli-Palestinian talks remain stalemated into September or October, he will convene an international summit on achieving Mideast peace, senior Israeli officials told Haaretz on Thursday.

The officials said the conference would be run by the Quartet of Middle East peacemakers - the United States, European Union, United Nations and Russia - in a bid to forge a united global front for creating a Palestinian state. The summit, they said, would address such core issues as borders, security arrangements, Palestinian refugees and the status of Jerusalem.


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israeli-officials-obama-to-call-world-summit-if-mideast-peace-talks-fail-1.287469

Notice who the conference would be run by. Yep. Our ‘old friends’ - ‘the Quartet of Middle East peacemakers - the United States, European Union, United Nations and Russia.’ (The ‘many’ are still going strong!)

Then On May 19th 2010 George Mitchell, representing the Obama administration met with Palestinian President Abbas, and Chief PA Negotiator, Saeb Erekat, to discuss “final-status issues like borders and security.”

"We are focusing on final-status issues like borders and security," Saeb Erekat told reporters after the meeting between Abbas and George Mitchell, who is mediating indirect peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

"We hope that in the next four months we can achieve the two-state solution on the 1967 borders," said Erekat, reiterating a Palestinian demand that Israel withdraws from Palestinian territory it captured in the 1967 Middle East war.


Note reference to “the two-state solution on the 1967 borders”. I.e. the 2003 Road Map solution!

Remember President Obama stating on 30 April 2010 that “if Israeli-Palestinian talks remain stalemated into September or October, he will convene an international summit on achieving Mideast peace”?

Agreement between Israel and Palestine for a road-map to peace in 12 months

In one small but hopeful early sign, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel and President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority agreed to meet in the Middle East on Sept. 14-15, and then to hold talks every two weeks thereafter, according to George Mitchell, the Obama administration envoy for Middle East peace, wire services reported.


http://athens.cafebabel.com/en/post/2010/09/03/Agreement-between-Israel-and-Palestine-for-a-road-map-to-peace-in-12-months3


And currently?

Clinton urges Israel, Palestine to tackle core issues of conflict

WASHINGTON, Dec. 10 (Xinhua) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Friday that now it is time for Israel and the Palestinians to "grapple with core issues" of their decades-long conflict.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2010-12/11/c_13644697.htm


So … to sum up.

If you look at all the ‘speechifying’ around the above you will constantly bump up against the phrase “peace and safety”!

And it looks as though that is going to continue for a while. (Three and a half years?)

“For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” (1 Thess 5: 3)

But overall, if you review all of the information presented in Dewey Brunton’s analysis of Daniel’s prophetic verses (Dan 9; 24; 27); and when you see how incredibly TWO prophecies are quite clearly interwoven in the same verses, unlocked through different time scales based on the Hebrew word for ‘weeks’; and if you look at the explanations I have given in earlier emails; and look at the above in connection with your question and the verse Daniel 9: 27; do you not think that all the signs are pointing to the ‘70th week’ of Daniel having started?

I am pretty certain that we have entered the angel’s "final week"

The evidence is so strong, and building.

Remember that most of those alive at the time of Our Lord’s coming – even those who were actively looking for it – didn’t recognise the times as they ‘happened’ either!

To us it now seems incredible – with our benefit of hindsight and long familiarity with Biblical events – that people could be caught unaware and in ignorance of the arrival of the Messiah.

Let’s not we here make the same mistake!

If things are rolling now – as I think they are – 2017 is the end of it.

Don’t be unprepared.

We should be watching for ‘signs’ like hawks now.

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:55 am

Stephen wrote:Messiah was then ‘cutoff’ three and a half years later, and caused ‘the sacrifice and the oblation to cease’ – because He was the final and ultimate Sacrifice, the ‘Sacrificial Lamb’, whose death on the Cross made all further sacrifice of animals unnecessary. The sin debt was paid in full! (In fact, the re-instatement of a ‘daily sacrifice’ on Temple Mount would be an affront to Our Lord and Our Father, and shows contempt for Our Lord’s agonising sacrifice on the Cross, which is simply ignored and replaced by animal sacrifices again. So I fail to understand why so many ‘Christians’ seem to get excited at the prospect!)


:a3:

There are very few scriptures that carry as much prohetic weight as Daniel 9:27.

:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:59 am

Hi again, Doug,

I wanted to quote something to you from a book called “End Time Delusions” by Steve Wohlberg, just to try and show you that there is no Biblical requirement to stick with the idea that:

when the Antichrist confirms the covenant with many. That's when the seven years start.


There are other equally valid views. Including a very solid and well established interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks that many hold today. In fact, it seems more and more likely to me that this is the more correct basic interpretation. And that Daniel’s 70 weeks were essentially finished with by 33-34 AD.

If that were so, searching for an antichrist to appear to sign a treaty, who then reneges on the agreement and defiles a re-built Temple could be a meaningless enterprise. But it could also be a contrived delusion ('a strong delusion') to distract us from the real meaning of Daniel and also Revelation.

Here is the extract from Steve Wohlberg’s book, “End Time Delusions”. And you can find Steve’s book on Amazon here:

http://www.amazon.com/End-Time-Delusions-Steve-Wohlberg/dp/0768429609

And you can listen to Steve’s one hour presentation on this particular subject (i.e. 70th week of Daniel and 7 year period of tribulation) here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7279999038465245488#

The extract is quite long, but worth reading through:

He shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease ... (Daniel 9:27 K]V).

This may shock you, but historically, the vast majority of well-respected Bible scholars have not applied Daniel 9:27 to a seven-year period of tribulation at all Neither have they interpreted the “he” as referring to a future Mr. Deadly. Instead, they applied it to Jesus Christ.

Notice what the world-famous Bible commentary written by Matthew Henry says about Daniel 9:27:

“By offering himself a sacrifice once and for all he Jesus shall put an end to all the Levitical sacrifices.”

Thus Matthew Henry applied Daniel 9:27 to Christ, not antichrist.

Another famous commentary written by British Methodist Adam Clarke says that during Daniel 9:27’s “term of seven years,” Jesus Himself would “confirm or ratify the new covenant with mankind.”

Another dusty Bible commentary reveals: “He shall confirm the covenant-Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him.”

Here’s one more statement from a book called, Christ and Antichrist, published in 1846 by the Presbyterian Board of Publication in Philadelphia. On page 2, under Recommendations, are endorsements from many Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist ministers, including an official representative of the Southern Baptist Convention.9 Commenting on the final week of Daniel 9:27, that ancient volume states:

“.... sometime during the remaining seven, he [the Messiah] was to die as a sacrifice for sin, and thus bring in “everlasting righteousness.” Here are allusions to events so palpable, that one would think, the people among whom they occurred, could not possibly have misapplied the prophecy.”

Okay, here we go. The following ten points provide logical and convincing evidence that Daniel’s famous 70th week has no application to any future seven-year tribulation at all Rather, this great prophetic period was definitely fulfilled nearly two thousand years ago.

1. The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of “seventy weeks.” Logic requires that “seventy weeks” refers to one consecutive block of time, in other words, to seventy straight sequential weeks. The truth is, there is no example in Scripture (or anywhere else!) of a stated time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (see Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (see Genesis15:13), 70 years of captivity (see Daniel 9:2), etc. In Daniel’s prophecy, the “seventy weeks” were to begin during the reign of Persia and continue to the time of the Messiah.

2. Logic also requires that the 70th week follow immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!

3. It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. No hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and the following sixty-two weeks, so why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

Note: If you told your child to be in bed in 70 minutes, you obviously would mean 70 consecutive minutes. What if five hours later your fully awake son said, “But dad, I know 69 minutes have passed, but the 70th minute hasn’t started yet!”? After receiving an appropriate punishment, he would be swiftly sent to bed.

4. Daniel 9:27 says nothing about a seven-year period of “tribulation,” a “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or any “antichrist. “

5. The stated focus of this prophecy is the Messiah, not the antichrist. After the Messiah is “cut off’ (referring to Christ’s death), the text says, “And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
In the past, this, has been consistently applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and the second temple by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70.11

6. “He shall confirm the covenant.” Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17). Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers” (Romans 15:8, emphasis added). In the King James Version, Daniel 9:27 doesn’t say “a covenant” or peace treaty, but “the covenant,” which applies to the New Covenant. Nowhere in the Bible does the antichrist make, confirm, or break a covenant with anyone. The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not the antichrist.

7. “He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus Christ said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many ... “ (Matthew 26:28). Behold a perfect fit! Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

8. “In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.” After exactly three and a half years of holy ministry, Jesus Christ died on the cross, “in the midst of the week [in the middle of the seven years].” At the exact moment of His death, “the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom ... “ (Matthew 27:51). This act of God signified that all animal sacrifices at that moment ceased to be of value. Why? Because the Perfect Sacrifice had been offered!

9. “For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate.” “The abomination of desolation” (see Matthew 24:15) is not a simple subject, yet we know that Jesus clearly applied this event to the time when His followers were to flee from Jerusalem before the destruction of the second temple in AD. 70. In a parallel text to Matthew 24: 15, Jesus told His disciples, “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies [Roman armies led by Prince Titus], then know that its desolation is near” (Luke 21:20, emphasis added). The disciples did “see” those very events. Because of the “abominations” of the Pharisees, Jesus told them, “See! Your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38). Thus Gabriel’s statement in Daniel 9:27 about Jerusalem becoming “desolate” was perfectly fulfilled in AD. 70.

10. Gabriel said that the 70-week prophecy specifically applied to the Jewish people (see Daniel 9:24). During the period of Christ’s public ministry of 3 1/2 years, the Master’s focus was largely upon “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6). After His resurrection and then for another 3 1/2 years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews (see Acts 1-6). After that second 3 1/2 year period, in 34 AD., the bold Stephen was stoned by the Jewish Sanhedrin (see Acts 7). This infamous deed marked the then-ruling Jewish leaders’ final, official rejection of the gospel of our Savior. Then the gospel went to the Gentiles. In Acts 9, Saul became Paul, the “apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11: 13). In Acts 10, God gave Peter a vision revealing it was now time to preach to the Gentiles (see Acts 10: 1-28). Read also Acts 13:46. Thus approximately 31/2 years after the crucifixion - and at the end of the 70-week prophecy given for the Jewish people-the gospel shifted to the Gentiles exactly as predicted in Bible prophecy.

The explosive evidence is overwhelming! Point by point the events of Daniel’s 70th week have been fulfilled in the past. These eight words found in Daniel 9:27: “confirm ... covenant ... many ... midst ... sacrifice ... cease ... abominations ... desolate” all find perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and early Christian history.

In the words of that 1846 Presbyterian publication, The seventy weeks of Daniel therefore, have certainly ended many centuries ago. We are not to look to the future for the fulfillment of these predictions. We must look to the past. And if to the past; where is there one who can have any adequate claims to being the subject of these prophecies, but Jesus? He, and he only can claim them; and to him they most certainly refer.

“... one would think, the people [the Jews] among whom [these events] occurred, could not possibly have misapplied the prophecy.”

But they did. In fact, one major reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to’ receive its Messiah was because its scholars misinterpreted Daniel 9:27. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the predicted One who would die in the midst of the 70th week!

Amazingly, the exact same thing is happening today.

Sincere Christian scholars are now misapplying the very same prophecy.’ The entire “seven-year period of tribulation” theory is an end time delusion, a massive mega-myth. It may even go down in history as the “greatest evangelical misinterpretation of all time.” The whole concept is like a gigantic bubble. Once Daniel 9:27 is correctly understood and the sharply-pointed pin of truth is inserted, “Pop goes the seven years!”

It’s a fact: There is no text in the Bible which teaches a “seven-year tribulation.” If you hunt for it, you’ll end up like Ponce de Leon searching for the mystical Fountain of Youth, but never finding it.

The current debate and tremendous confusion over pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib is really a smoke screen of the enemy to hide the real issue.


Best,
Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:48 am

Stephen wrote:It’s a fact: There is no text in the Bible which teaches a “seven-year tribulation.” If you hunt for it, you’ll end up like Ponce de Leon searching for the mystical Fountain of Youth, but never finding it.


:shock: :shock: :shock: :wink:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:41 am

Hi shortribber,

I like the 'emoticons'! :lol:

Hope I'm not posting up too much at once at the moment.

But I've decided to more or less break for Christmas now, and I really want to give some time to the Daniel, etc., prophecies in light of Dewey Bruton's unveiling of TWO prophecies in the same prophetic vision!

It makes a lot of sense to me at the moment that the prophecy as outlined by Steve Wohlberg in my last post is the correct interpretation of the First Prophecy regarding Christ's First Coming, and using the one day for a year principal. And the 70 weeks in this interpretation are therefore 'done and dusted' by 34 AD.

Which leaves Dewey's interpretation - based on Shabua as 'the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)', or one week for a year, and commencing on 29 November 1947, dealing with Our Messiah's Second Coming.

Very soon now. By 2017 (70 years from 1947). So ... 6 - 7 years!

Exciting, innit?!

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Douggg on Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:53 am

Hi Steve, I am about to friendly torpedo :mrgreen: your entire "confirmation" of a peace effort scenario, with something I am pretty sure you probably have not heard before. :humm:

In Daniel 9 it says he will confirm "the" convenant with many for one week. Daniel 9 actually doesn't say anything about a peace treaty. People assume that the covenant is a peace treaty because in Daniel 8 it says (paraphrased) that the Antichrist destroys many by peace. Of course, that the Antichrist will be a false purveyor of peace is a factor, so we can't disregard the element of peace and safety. But I don't think "the" convenant to be confirmed is primarily a peace treaty.

Daniel 9's seventy years is attached to the Jews. Which covenant do the Jews embrace? The Mt. Sinai covenant. So what has the Mt. Sinai covenant have to do with seven years - in our times? And being confirmed.

In Deuteronomy 31:10-11 there is a requirement that the Mt Sinai covenant be read to the nation of Israel every 7 years.
imo, that is the confirmation of the covenant that the Antichrist will do.... as Judaism's perceived messiah. The confirmation of the covenant is already in the bible, what it is, in Deuteronomy 31:10-11.


This is coming from the position that the Jews (Judaism) will, in grave error and unwittingly, embrace the Antichrist as their messiah. There is a split with bible scholars over whether the Antichrist will be a Jew of Gentile. Grant Jefferies for one thinks that the Antichrist will be a Jew and will be Judaism's messiah. I believe the same (I came to that conclusion separate from Grant Jefferies; btw, we were born in the same year, 1948 :mrgreen: ).

9And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
10And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
11When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
12Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

The Antichrist in the middle of that seven years will break that law (the covenant), which earns him the title of "the lawless one". The Jews, on the other hand, those who will not be able to escape to the Judean mountains in time, and will be stuck in Jerusalem during the second half of the 7 years, keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus (meaning that they will have accepted Jesus when their false messiah claims to be god).

Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The scenario of the Antichrist arriving on the scene as the Jewish messiah, punctuated by knowledge of what Judaism's is expecting from the teachings of the Rambam, and the proper understanding of Gog/Magog - i.e the 7 years nestled between the Gog feast (Ezekiel 39:4) and the Armageddon feast (Ezekiel 39:17-20).... is too much for this post for me to go into detail.

btw, Steve, that we are the end times generation - we are in total agreement. :a3:

Doug L.
Last edited by Douggg on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:08 am

Stephen wrote:Very soon now. By 2017 (70 years from 1947). So ... 6 - 7 years!

Exciting, innit?!


Yep, sure is......and glad you have.....BY....2017....meaning it COULD be EARLIER....possible?

You see Stephen I think this prophecy COULD include MORE than two layers. I think it has three or more, but trying to explain each layer is basically impossible because some if not all the layers require more time to understand them.

:blessyou:
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:31 am

Douggg wrote:The scenario of the Antichrist arriving on the scene as the Jewish messiah, punctuated by knowledge of what Judaism's is expecting from the teachings of the Rambam, and the proper understanding of Gog/Magog - i.e the 7 years nestled between the Gog feast (Ezekiel 39:4) and the Armageddon feast (Ezekiel 39:17-20).... is too much for this post for me to go into detail.


This COULD be ONE of the layers IMO
The Wisest men have changed their Counsels and Resolves upon second thoughts, much more upon experience, and approaching evils not at first discovered. Rev. Herbert Croft, 1675

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.

Find seven years of tribulation plainly stated in the Bible.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:12 am

Hi Doug,

Born in 1948, eh?

Great. Because I was born in 1950 and had thought I was probably the ‘elder’ (in years, not wisdom!) on the Forum.

Dougg said:

Daniel 9's seventy years is attached to the Jews. Which covenant do the Jews embrace? The Mt. Sinai covenant. So what has the Mt. Sinai covenant have to do with seven years - in our times? And being confirmed.

In Deuteronomy 31:10-11 there is a requirement that the Mt Sinai covenant be read to the nation of Israel every 7 years. imo, that is the confirmation of the covenant that the Antichrist will do.... as Judaism's perceived messiah. The confirmation of the covenant is already in the bible, what it is, in Deuteronomy 31:10-11.


This is really interesting!

Do you see how it mirrors the prophecy of Our Lord’s First Coming when you take the interpretation detailed in my last post that Daniel’s 70th week actually referred to Our Lord’s period of ministry from His Baptism (3 ½ years); His Crucifixion (in the midst of the 7 years); and the Sanhedrin’s ‘official’ repudiation of Christ’s spreading gospel at the Martyrdom of Stephen, and the carrying of the Gospel to the Gentile (3 ½ years after the Crucifixion)

And it was through His Ministry and Crucifixion, and the preaching of the Gospel by His Apostles – to the Jews, up until Stephen’s martyrdom and Paul’s conversion! – that He confirmed the “covenant with many for one week”.

As part of Our Lord’s great work in this ‘week’, He ended the need for substitutionary sacrifice of animals as a process whereby man offers an innocent animal’s blood as a ‘covering’ of his own sin.

Christ cleansed all humanity once and for all. That is, all humanity who recognise Him as the Messiah – the Word made flesh – and accept His atoning sacrifice. His Church (not the many mockeries of today, but the true apostolic church – which still exists) became a new ‘body’ of His people. All encompassing of all humanity who believe on His Name. Therefore His Church = Jew + Gentile.

So the words that we have chosen to interpret as being so negatively predictive of the actions of an ‘antichrist’, i.e.

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (Dan 9; 27)


turn out instead to relate entirely to the wonderful, saving work of Our Lord!

He ‘confirmed the covenant with many’; described as ‘the New Covenant’ with His Church, but which was a continuation and fruition to that point of His Father’s work. (“This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”)

He caused the substitutionary sacrifices and ritual oblations to cease. He was the sacrificial ‘Lamb of God’ once and for all for ALL of us.

The growing abominations of His time (“It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.”) and false teachings of an established priesthood were made desolate by our Lord’s ministry, and finally the established ‘structure’ was destroyed completely by Titus and his legions in 70 AD.

And for how long?

“even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

I.e. NOW! The end times and the pouring out of God’s wrath and judgement.

Now let’s look at what you wrote, taking it from the perspective of being the prophecy of Our Lord’s Second Coming (time-lined from 29 November 1947 as a week for a year), as a mirror to what has already happened (First Coming prophecy, time-lined from 457 BC on the basis of a day for a year – a week for 7 years).

According to some scholars ‘covenant’ as used in the Bible is always a term referring to relationships between God, the Messiah, and God’s people. Never for mundane state treaties – even if they do effect Israel!

OK. So let’s take the covenant, as in the First Coming prophecy, as being the covenant between God and His people. (This may or may not be exclusively the Jews now, as Christ ‘confirmed the covenant with many’, and Christ’s Church is comprised of All who believe in Him – Jew and Gentile.)

Let’s also take ‘he’ as once again referring to Our Lord.

So what do we have?

Quite simply, a repetition of Our Lord’s First Coming, only this time with the Messiah coming as ‘the Lion of Judah’ (wielding a ‘rod of iron’) and NOT as the ‘Sacrificial Lamb’.

Our Lord will re-confirm the ‘covenant’ with His People – the age-old covenant involving God’s Commandments given on Mt Sinai. Because this does not change. Our Lord lived it.

(Have you noticed by the way, how simple and natural the 10 commandments are to fulfil by a righteous person, and how they would result in a wonderful, loving society in which people do not kill, steal, or rip each other off, and in which Our Creator is continually remembered in gratitude? And yet, I have heard so many people dismiss the Bible because they say it is too full of rules and restriction! And usually, of course, they are thinking about being restricted in their sexual adventures!)

And then, as before, Our Lord will cause all false religion and institutionalised false practices to cease, even up to the consummation (the end of the Age – 2017?), and ‘that determined’ – i.e. the judgement – ‘shall be poured upon the desolate’ – i.e. the unrepentant, wilfull adversaries of Christ and Our Father. (Including the corrupt ‘rich men of the earth’ – who think they are now riding high and untouchable as they steal all our wealth and goods and freedom – and the worshippers and followers of Lucifer/Satan, who have foolishly chosen the ‘fallen cherub’ as their lord and master.)

And that’s it.

The Second Coming is a repetition of the First, only at the End of the Age. (Christ said He would be with us – even unto the end of the Age.) And Christ is now in His second prophesied role – ‘the Lion of Judah.’

And because Satan was defeated at the First Coming (the Cross was a victory! Releasing man from sin so that God could grant him immortality – instead of the ‘wages of sin’, which is death! And which Satan was expecting after he corrupted Eve and Adam), he, Satan, is desperate to distract from what is really going to happen in the Second Coming. Because he is going to be defeated again!

And I suspect he knows that, at the very least with repressed fears deep down inside.

So he is organising everything to ‘muddy the waters’ and lead humanity astray and cause the whole earth to worship him.

And his servants are working on his behalf – in return for great wealth, sensual pleasures, worldly success, fame and power.

And that is what the New World Order is really all about. I.e. setting up the ‘kingdom of Satan’ on earth as a single organised system (like Babel before God confused tongues and scattered people into independent groups throughout the earth) into which Satan’s mouthpiece, the ‘antichrist’ (like Nimrod of Babel before him), can be positioned as the absolute ruler (though not by his own power), through whom Satan’s will can be poured out on a foolish humanity.

I assure you that this is what Satanists are working for world-wide. They want to bring their ‘Master’ (who gives them such staggering earthly rewards) to earth as ruler.

Don’t worry.

I agree with Chuck Missler:

“If God is on our side, the enemy are outnumbered!”

So it remains for us to prepare ourselves for what is coming.

We need to keep studying scripture, stay strong in our faith, work to bring as many others to Our Lord as we can (snatch them clear from Satan!), and endure, with patience, to the end.

And the timing of the end?

All we have to do is find the key to unlock the information.

We know Daniel’s prophecy covers 70 ‘weeks’.

We also know that those weeks can be interpreted (validly from the Hebrew – no trick involved!) as of days, of months, of years, of shavuots (annual ‘Feast of Weeks’), or sevens of years (‘a day for a year)

We know that interpreting the ‘weeks’ as ‘a day for a week’ unlocks the prophecy of Our Lord’s first coming. So that has been used.

We know that 70 actual weeks, or 70 ‘months’, gives us nothing

We know that ‘sevens of years’ – ‘a day for a year’ – has been used.

That would seem to leave us with a week for a year – or an annual ‘shavuot’.

But we need a start date.

Once again, Daniel is clear:

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince …” (Dan 9 : 25)

We have already used one date as being “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem” to unlock the First Coming prophecy – 457 BC (or even 445 BC if you favour where that interpretation leads)

But there have been no more such commands for the last 2,400 years or so, as far as I can see, bar one: United Nations Resolution 181 issued on 29 November 1947 – to restore the nation of Israel and establish Jerusalem as an International City!

1947 AD + 70 years is 2017 AD

We are now coming to the end of 2010.

2017 minus 7 years is 2010.

I would say we are now in the end times. We have a clear, pin-pointed time.

If you are still in shock at this idea, and inclined to dismiss and deny it (as I originally was) I can do no better than refer you once again to Dewey Bruton’s elucidation of the matter:

Daniel’s Timeline:

Full Video (2 Hours)

http://www.waytozion.org/video/stream/timeline/timeline.html

Or, You Tube clips (12 clips)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1bkB1nShSU&feature=player_embedded

And Website here:

http://danielstimeline.com/

You may be sceptical. I was initially. Because it seems so incredible that this time – the end times – debated and spoken about, and, admittedly, mis-calculated, for so many centuries, could now be upon us.

Really upon us.

And maybe all the thousands of millions of words written on ‘the rapture’ were just a ‘smoke-screen’. Our ancient enemy trying to put false expectations in our minds so that we do not accept the end times as having begun even when they are upon us. (“It can’t be the ‘end times.’ The ‘rapture’ hasn’t happened yet!”)

All I’m suggesting is that you fearlessly research, and be prepared to let go of old, perhaps emotionally dear, ideas, if they begin to cease to stack up against the evidence.

To love the Truth above all is part of loving Our Lord, who was: “the way, the TRUTH, and the Life.”

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:25 pm

Stephen, several of us have discussed the possible dual fulfillment of Daniel 9 in the past, the 7 sevens possibly pointing to the year of Jubilee, but the theories don't quite fit. You also have made an admirable attempt to show a dual fulfillment but it does not quite fit with scripture.

From your theory, if the decree to rebuild Jerusalem occurred in 1947, the 62 weeks (years) would end in 2009 not 2010 (1947 + 62= 2009), and the last 7 years would begin in 2009 not 2010. There has been no indication of a confirming of a covenant for 1 seven in 2009 or 2010 (and if your view were consistent and each 'seven' were 1 year the covenant would be confirmed for 1 year and not 7 years, covenant confirmed for 1 seven).

Also your view switches the order of the sevens, the 7 sevens are described first and then the 62 sevens, which your view reverses which is inconsistent with scripture, we can't pick and choose to change scripture to fit out view.

Also your view adds 1 year after the 7 years which is not found in scripture. Dan 9 describes one coming to his end at the end of the week, which would be most consistent with the AC. The AC comes to his end at armageddon, and Zech 14 and Joel 3 appear to include armageddon and the millenium together under the description of the Day of the Lord, the Day begins when Jesus returns, the 1,000 years begins when Jesus returns, there is no 1 year delay indicated in scripture.

As far as the 70 the week being fulfilled by Jesus in the past, that theory has also been discussed extensively in the past. There is no indication in scripture that Jesus confirmed any covenant for 1 seven, Jesus is associated with the everlasting covenant, not a covenant limited by 7 years. Also although Jesus put an end to the sin offering, there does appear to be some indication in scripture that sacrifices will occur in the future, not all sacrifices were for the atonement of sin. Zech 14 and the latter part of Ezekiel appear to indicate that sacrifices will occur during the millenium while Jesus reigns from Jerusalem. If Jesus put an end to all sacrifice and offering then it would be unlikely that He would allow them during the time of His reign on the earth.

Also if Dan 9:27 is read in a striaghtforward manner, the one who confirms the covenant for 1 seven, who puts an end to sacrifice, is also the one who comes to his end, which would not be Jesus.

So there does not appear to be any dual fulfillment of Dan 9, otherwise Jesus would come to His end twice, He would be cut off twice, the sealing up of vision and prophecy, etc. would occur twice, and the end would come twice (the end will come like a flood). The dual fulfillment of Dan 9 does not fit with a straightforward reading of the passage, nor does the past fullfillment of the 70th week fit with the straightforward reading of scripture.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 1whowaits on Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:35 pm

Doug, i would agree that the covenant that is confirmed for 1 seven is most likely the Old Covenant, the Old Covenant is the only covenant associated with what can be described as a 'strengthening' every 7 years, scripture interprets scripture.

And if the generation of Matt 24 is 70 years, and the fig tree is Israel, then 2018 could be the end of the 70 years and 2011 the beginning of the 'seven'. Could 2011 be the year of Gog-Magog followed by the confirming of the covenant for 1 seven? perhaps.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Exit40 on Tue Dec 21, 2010 10:08 pm

I discounted Daniels Time Line some time ago. Not solid enough for me, even when I tried. I tend to think it is the Old Covenant that is confirmed also, that guarantees to Israel her right to be in her land, with a peace and safety caveat. As for Jubilee years, there is research that says the Jubilee year is also the first year of the next seven year period discounting the fifty year theories which state the next seven year period starts after the Jubilee year. In other words, the sevens must be contiguous. A detailed study of past Sabbaths and Jubilees can be found here as a starting point. Quite a read if you have the time.

http://yahweh.org/yahweh2.html

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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:44 pm

1whowaits wrote:As far as the 70 the week being fulfilled by Jesus in the past, that theory has also been discussed extensively in the past. There is no indication in scripture that Jesus confirmed any covenant for 1 seven, Jesus is associated with the everlasting covenant, not a covenant limited by 7 years. Also although Jesus put an end to the sin offering, there does appear to be some indication in scripture that sacrifices will occur in the future, not all sacrifices were for the atonement of sin. Zech 14 and the latter part of Ezekiel appear to indicate that sacrifices will occur during the millenium while Jesus reigns from Jerusalem. If Jesus put an end to all sacrifice and offering then it would be unlikely that He would allow them during the time of His reign on the earth.


Hi 1whowaits,

We have all discussed Daniel 9:27 and the 70 sevens in great length. Do you remember though that the CONFIRMATION can be for a duration of seven years but the COVENANT itself is an everlasting covenant?

The offerings in the latter part of Ezekiel DO speak of SIN offerings.........they are not to be taken literally obviously or Paul is in error in Hebrews....and we know Paul was not in error.

:blessyou:
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:04 am

Hi All,

Interesting responses.

I would caution you all, however, that relying on the fact that ‘we all discussed this extensively’ years ago is no more meaningful than saying ‘everybody knows that!’

I’m sure the flat earth, geo-centric world view was ‘discussed extensively’, also, even as Copernicus and Galileo – amidst great opposition – were bringing forth a different view.

And a view that had previously been held by the ancient Greek philosophers and others, by the way, and subsequently proved to be the correct one.

In just the same way our Christian predecessors, including the great Protestant Reformers, ‘knew’ that the correct interpretation of the verses in Daniel 9, 24 to 27, referred to the First Coming of Our Lord and His work, and His covenant with all who believe in Him, and was finished by 34 AD!

So I’m just saying be careful.

By using the ‘antichrist’ interpretations of these passages we completely reverse the impact of them from the Work of Our Lord to speculations as to the future behaviour of a coming anti-Christ! We fly in the face of some of the greatest minds in Christendom, who came before us.

And to do so we had to snap off a week from a seventy week period described by the angel, and push it into an indeterminate future – which we have now been waiting for for 2,000 years! Some theologians consider this ludicrous! And ask ‘where has this ever happened before in prophetic declarations?’

Seventy weeks is seventy weeks. The angel is quite clear about this. Despite the fact he highlights time-spans WITHIN the seventy weeks, it is still seventy weeks! There is no indication that the weeks are anything but contiguous – running from start date to the end in one unbroken 70 week period.

And yet you have told me I can’t ‘switch the order of sevens’ while you follow the BREAKING of a seventy week period into TWO DISTINCT separate periods – separated by millennia! – of 69 weeks and 1 week. For myself, I’m pretty sure the angel would have made that clear, especially seeing as how it does not appear to have any precedent anywhere else in Biblical prophecy!

(And on top of the above interpretation we now have millions of Christians dependently awaiting a ‘rapture’, who will resist believing that the ‘end times’ – which they now perceive as the last separated week – have begun, even when they have, because they have not been ‘raptured’. And who may well go into shock when the horrible truth dawns on them! Do you not begin to smell the possibility, at least, of a giant smokescreen having been laid down across the prophetic field? Or do you not really accept – or want to believe – how diabolically intelligent, cunning and clever Satan is?)

And there is the matter of a very important, and ‘prophecy-relevant’ recent event – a second command to ‘restore Jerusalem’ (and even restore Israel as a nation!) on 29 November 1947!

Don’t you think that just might have some bearing on the prophecy?

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince … “ (Daniel 9 : 25)

The command to ‘restore and rebuild’ Jerusalem! (Clearly given in UN Resolution 181 on 29 November 1947)

And unto the coming of who? Does it directly speak of anti-Christ? Man of Sin? Man of Perdition?

And why not? The Bible clearly uses those terms to identify someone in other places.

No.

The only person clearly mentioned is the Messiah.

But somehow we have managed to convince ourselves that the prophecy switches to ‘anti-Christ’ – who seems to be a character most people are obsessed with. He’s only Satan’s puppet! No big deal.

The centre of all history is Jesus Christ.

And 70 years from 29 November 1947 takes us to 28 November 2017, in strict calendar time. Therefore with the last seven year period beginning 29 November 2010.

But the 70 shabua may indeed refer to the passing of 70 ‘Shavuots’ – feast of weeks. And the ‘Feast of Weeks’ takes place on 6 Sivan, which falls between May/June in our calendar.

God does not allow easy precision of His prophetic declarations until after they have been fulfilled.

And with good reason.

What do you think the ‘evil in high places’ would have done with such knowledge if it were as easy to read as a daily horoscope?!

They would have hidden it from us for a start, and then used it to make themselves ‘appear as gods’.

But to His people God blesses them by allowing them to glean hints and indications, and signs that become stronger as events unfold.

And finally, rather than being dismissive of ‘Daniel’s Timeline’ because we can’t yet see everything ‘precisely’ (which is the nature of prophecy that has not yet been completely fulfilled) look closely at the amazing correspondences and time periods that DO fall in!

Do you not think we are at the time when we might be able to glean some hints?

Or are we going to miss it – as happened 2,000 years ago – because we are so full of preconceptions and so happy with the interpretations we have held for years (‘and we have discussed all this before!’), that we can no longer look with open and unprejudiced eyes.

Anyway, I have shared my information and understandings thus far, which is, I hope, the purpose of this Forum, and we now all have the same information to consider.

So it’s up to us to make of it what we will.

And please do not, anyone, be offended if I reply quite strongly at times. I am never attacking the person behind a post. But I am prepared to point out attitudes, etc. that I perceive to be foolish – or even dangerous.

And I enjoy constructive criticism because I think it is mind-expanding. And I am always willing to receive new information, or have my errors pointed out to me.

And, after all, we are all seeking the truth of these matters, and are sincerely trying to discern ‘the signs of the times.’ Our Lord seemed to consider such an endeavour to be important:

“Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things [which belong] unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.” (Luke 19; 42)

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:31 am

Good post Steve,

:a3:
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Exit40 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:55 am

shorttribber wrote:Good post Steve,

:a3:


Agreed. Steve, I don't believe just because you are passionate about this anyone is taking it personally. Honestly, I haven't read all the way through Danielstimeline again, yet, got distracted on the Sabbath years and the Jubilees which I had been looking at anyway, just got deeper into it. Research I have seen says the next future Sabbath year will be 2016/17, which means we are currently in a Sabbath, Hebrew calendar year, but this is arrived at by a different method. I have another source that proclaims this also, based on the yahweh.org site, with further explanations Scripturally supported in the NT. Still trying to grasp the history and math of this, and the start and stop Feasts dates, which are Scripturally supported in the OT, and I will get back into Daniels site. Honestly, there might be something to this. My eyes are open to the possibility you are presenting, although I don't seem to be able to agree with some of the premises. Keep at it Steve, we may yet get this sorted out, especially as time moves along. Have you checked out the link I provided ? Very interesting site, which I am still studying.

We should consider also this...

Hsa 6:1 ¶ Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hsa 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hsa 6:3 Then shall we know, [if] we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [and] former rain unto the earth.


If this refers to a 2000 year gap, which seems likely, then it must also be considered when the third day begins. In relation to this topic and within the Hebrew calendar and Feasts it should be discussed as another possibility to watch for. Any thoughts on this ?

Actually, this is a good thread, I am learning a lot as we go along.

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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby amessenger4god on Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:52 pm

I've always thought the exact same thing about Hosea 6:2. I can't seem to fit any other explanation except what you've offered.

4 prophetic days from the Fall to the Christ. 2 prophetic days from Christ to His return. 1 prophetic day when Christ reigns.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:07 pm

amessenger4god wrote:I've always thought the exact same thing about Hosea 6:2. I can't seem to fit any other explanation except what you've offered.

4 prophetic days from the Fall to the Christ. 2 prophetic days from Christ to His return. 1 prophetic day when Christ reigns.


:a3:
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Finaldash on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:10 am

Is this the same Steve Wohlberg that is a Seventh day Adventist?
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:43 pm

ST, yes i remember our discussions, but again there is no indication in scripture that the everlasting covenant has a 7 year period of confirmation, and there is no indication that Jesus strengthened the Old Covenant for 7 years, He made the Old Covenant obsolete as Hebrews directly states. Again if you can provide a scripture that states Jesus confirmed a covenant for 7 years i would appreciate you pointing it out.

And i would agree that there are aspects of the descriptions in the last chapters of Ezek that indicate that some of what is described occurs prior to the millenium, i believe that the Israelis will build or attempt to build the temple described in Ezek after Gog-Magog. But there are other aspects of these chapters that point to events during the millenium, such as the river from the temple, leaves of trees not withering and serving for healing, God returning to the temple and stating 'This is where I will live among the Israelites forever.' So sacrifices will be reinistututed prior to and during the millenium, and Zech 14 also indicates sacrifices during the millenium.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby shorttribber on Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:57 pm

1whowaits wrote:ST, yes i remember our discussions, but again there is no indication in scripture that the everlasting covenant has a 7 year period of confirmation, and there is no indication that Jesus strengthened the Old Covenant for 7 years, He made the Old Covenant obsolete as Hebrews directly states. Again if you can provide a scripture that states Jesus confirmed a covenant for 7 years i would appreciate you pointing it out.


I will be glad to point out to you again that my reference for Christ confirming a covenant for seven years is found in Daniel 9:27. Obviously you disagree, nevertheless, that is the scripture.

And I will state again, only the sacrificial system of the Old Covenant is obsolete.

:blessyou:
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Stephen, i mention our previous discussions of this subject so that we don't always repeat the same points, but it has been a while since ST and i went around on this so lets do it again.

I would disagree with your statement that the angel indicates that there is no separation between the weeks, that they all occur without separation during the same period of time. Actually a straightforward reading of the weeks shows that the angel indicated breaks between the weeks by listing 62 weeks, 7 weeks and by deduction from 70 total weeks, 1 week. The angel does not necessarily indicate 70 continuous weeks, otherwise only 70 weeks would be mentioned, there would be no need for breaking 70 weeks into 62, 7 and 1 weeks.

But the time periods are indeed listed separately which means something, most logically that there is some separation between the weeks. And from a little knowledge of history it is clear that the first 62 and 7 week periods have already been fulfilled in the past. After the historical fact of the anointed One being cut off, the passage refers to the time of the end, 'the end will come like a flood' and 'wars will continue until the end', the 'end' being a time distant from the time of Christ as described in Dan 11 and 12.

So there does appear to be a break in the time period of the 70 weeks, the angel clearly describes separate groups of weeks, and separates the 62 and 7 weeks from the 70th week by reference to the time of the end, which was clearly not the time when the Anointed One was cut off. This would follow more logically than reversing the 62 and 7 weeks which is not indicated at all in the passage.

Also, Dan 9:27 describes an individual strengthening a covenant for 1 seven, stopping sacrifice and offering in the middle of the seven, and then coming to an end. While Jesus is not associated with any of these descriptions, the AC is associated repeatedly with stopping the sacrifice and coming to his end. The most logical conclusion would be that Dan 9:27 is not referring to Jesus but the one who is associated with at least 2 of the aspects described, the AC.

And while the rebirth of Israel does indeed have significance for prophecy, there is no logical reason to state that the 70 weeks of Dan 9 must be restarted at that point, just because someone made a statement about Jerusalem being rebuilt, especially when it is clear that the 70th week has not yet been fulfilled.

And again, does your theory not point to 2009 as being the start of the 7 years as 1947 + 62 = 2009? And if your theory does state that 1 seven is actually only 1 year, is the covenant not then confirmed for only 1 year and not 7? So if the covenant is confirmed for only 1 seven or 1 year, why reverse the order of the 62 and 7 weeks, (there is no 7 year confirming of the covenant, according to your view)?
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby 1whowaits on Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:33 pm

ST, the arguement would then be based on the cumulative evidence presented in scripture. Neither Jesus or the AC are associated with confirming a covenant for 7 years anywhere else in scripture. While Jesus did make the sacrifice of animals for sin unnecessary, He did not put an end to all sacrifice and offering, the sacrifices did continue for years after the crucifixion, and from Zech 14 and Ezek, sacrifices will resume under Jesus' rule in the future.

The AC on the other hand, is associated repeatedly with stopping the sacrifice and offering in Dan 8, 11 and 12.

Dan 9 also refers to the desolator coming to an end, which would not be associated with Jesus, He has no end. But the end of the AC is described repeatedly in scripture.

So for Jesus there is at best a partial association with Dan 9:27 in the stopping of sacrifice for sins. For the AC there are 2 strong associations elsewhere in scripture, in the stoppong of sacrifice and the coming to his end. The cumulative evidence of scripture would indicate that Dan 9:27 refers to the AC.

So from the cumulative evidence of scripture the most logical conclusion would be that it is not Jesus that confirms a covenant for 1 seven.

I would agree that Jesus made the animal sacrifice for sin obsolete along with the OT regulations regarding purification, etc. But the rest of the Old Covenant, the promises to the Patriarchs and Israel are forever, Jesus did not strengthen them for only 1 seven, Dan 9 :27 is again not referring to Jesus from the evidence of scripture.
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:42 am

Hi Guys,

I really want to reply in depth to the posts here.

Unfortunately, I went 'down' with a severe bout of 'flu a couple of days ago (it seems to be rampaging around the UK at the moment!), have spent the last two days in bed, and can't concentrate too easily.

So it looks like I will be spending Christmas on my own this year, drinking warm orange juice! Never mind. :itsgood:

I will get back to you because the points raised are important and require satisfactory answers, and I am seeing - by reading some of the greatest Protestant theologians, both past and present - that the 'modern' interpretations of prophecy may be 'a great deception' leading us all astray from where we should be looking, and cleverly postponing the last days to an indeterminate future because most of Christendom is awaiting events that are simply delusional and are NEVER going to happen. I perceive the deceiving hand of Satan in all of this.

I will probably need to write quite a long post on this, covering prophetic interpretation, 'antichrist', 'rapture', and the supposed '7 years of tribulation' - a la Tim LaHaye and the 'Left Behind' series!

In the meantime, Have a Very Merry Christmas everyone.

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 24, 2010 1:22 pm

Hi All,

I want to set out for you the prophecy of Daniel (9: 24 – 27) as I now understand it, and some related key issues to do with current interpretations and beliefs.

Then, once we clearly know the position of this interpretation and related matters, we can go on to clarify or discuss it.

So here we go.

Daniel’s prophetic verses – which I’m sure we all know off by heart by now! Lol!

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Dan 9 : 24 – 27)


I see prophecy in the Bible to be multi-layered, and in this case I think there are two clear prophecies. You may simply dismiss that, and prefer to hold to there just being one. But let’s clearly spell out the TWO that I see.

(By the way, I am ‘building on the shoulders of giants’ throughout. I obviously have not come to all these conclusions unaided. Great theologians and interpreters of prophecy have gone before me, both ancient and modern. So God forbid that anyone should think I am claiming all this for myself as a brilliant prophetic scholar. The very thought makes me feel ill. I am humble before great researchers and teachers.)

The FIRST Prophecy

This prophecy was recounted by Daniel from about the middle of the 5th Century BC, and relates to the First Coming of the Messiah.

Straight the way we are given the famous ‘seventy weeks’. We know that the Hebrew word utilised is Shabua, and basically means ‘sevens’. (In the same way an old ‘middle English’ word, ‘decad’, meant groups or sequences of ten.)

So there can be seven days, weeks, months, years or ‘sevens of years’ – a day for a year for each ‘week’.

(Also, a plural of Shabua is ‘Shavuot’, which refers to the annual ‘Feast of Weeks’ (or Tabernacles, or Pentecost, or ‘Wedding Feast’) that falls annually sometime in May/June by the Gregorian calendar.)

Anyway, the correct period of ‘sevens’ is, obviously, generally understood by the context.

None of Daniel’s prophecy had been fulfilled by the first seventy days, weeks months or years, so therefore, by the context of what Daniel is talking about, we have to use ‘sevens of years’ – or a day for a year within each week – for this prophecy.

In verses 25 and 26 Daniel gives us a ‘division’ of the 70 weeks:

7 weeks; 62 weeks; and 1 week. (The one week at the end is made reference to in Verse 27; “And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week;”)

so 7 – 62 – 1 = 70

But we are dealing with ‘a day for a year’. So the division becomes:

49 years (7 x 7); 434 years (62 x 7); and 7 years (1 x 7). A total of 490 years. (70 x 7)

At this stage I do not see any reason for inserting ‘gap periods’ within the angel’s ‘dividing’ of the 70 weeks.

Neither did our great Christian predecessors, like Luther, Calvin, Wesley, Tyndale, Spurgeon or Francis Schaeffer.

And these men were quite well aware that everything prophesied by Daniel in these verses had not been fulfilled (“to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”), but they refused to chop the interpretation around to make the prophecy ‘fit’, instead they trusted that in due course God would reveal the further interpretations necessary.

I believe He has. With the Second Prophecy, which we will look at below.

So let’s look at the way our early Christian forbears, and many modern theologians, interpret this prophecy.

The starting point is obviously “from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem.”

There are a few ‘commandments’ to re-build the Temple, and one to restore the walls and the roads, but only the Commandment by Artaxerxes Longimanus in 457 BC gives everything: I.e. the rebuilding of the Temple, of Jerusalem itself AND the right of the Jewish people to govern themselves. “The sceptre was restored to Jerusalem.” (I.e. the right to self-rule, rather than just being a vassal state in allegiance to a stronger power.)

As a brief digression – and an example of how we should constantly be in awe of scripture – Genesis 49: 10 states; “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him [shall] the gathering of the people [be].”

In the 7th Century AD the Roman governor of Judea removed the Sanhedrin’s right to impose the death penalty.

Many Rabbis circumnavigated the city of Jerusalem for days, wearing sackcloth and ashes, and wailing in despair, because they thought this showed their scriptures to be wrong, and in error. As they saw it ‘the sceptre’ had passed and Messiah had not yet come.

They were unaware, of course, that about 70 miles to the north, in a little village called Nazareth, a young carpenter’s son was preparing for His ministry.

And look at how it now all fits together. How amazing Our God is.

If the Sanhedrin had had the right to condemn Jesus to death, He would have been stoned to death. The Hebrew method of capital punishment.

But Isaiah had said that His hands and feet would be pierced. Nobody knew what that meant at the time of Isaiah’s prophecy, because organised crucifixion, on a purpose-built instrument of torture, as a punishment by the state, was not instituted until the time of the Persian Empire. And was then adopted by the Roman Empire.

So all prophecy is fulfilled. Shiloh (Jesus) had already arrived and was a young boy when the ‘sceptre’ (right to impose capital punishment) was taken from Judah, and the prophecy was then fulfilled that Our Lord be crucified (‘pierced in hands and feet’) rather than stoned to death as was the method of the Hebrews.

The above coming together of prophecy ought to give us confidence that we do not need to try and ‘squeeze’ or ‘twist’ prophecy into what we think ‘ought’ to happen.

God will take care of it.

Let’s continue on with the First Coming prophecy.

“unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks”.

7 weeks and 62 weeks is 69 weeks, which as seven years to a week – a day for a year – gives us 69 x 7 = 483 years.

483 years from 457 BC = 27 AD. The Baptism of Christ, and the start of His Ministry.

(Tiberius Caesar began ruling in the Fall of 13 AD. Thus his 15th year began in the Fall of 27 AD which also marks the baptism of Jesus. This is precisely 69 weeks (i.e. 483 years) after 457 BC fulfilling the prophecy to the very year.)


Now let’s look at that last week, which I, personally, see no evidence of requiring to be snapped off and placed in an indeterminate future.

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” 9: 27

“And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:” He did. First through His own direct teaching and presence in Galilee and Jerusalem. And then His crucifixion as the sacrificial lamb of the covenant, then after Pentecost, through the disciples and apostles that He chose, preaching His Gospel to the Jews.

“And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:” (v. 26). He was. He was executed. But He was not ‘cut off’ for Himself. He was resurrected in flesh and bone. And now is in authority with the Father.

(Note that He was not described as being resurrected in ‘flesh and blood’ by the way. Some of the Rabbis teach that Adam and Eve did not have ‘blood’ in them until after the Fall. Adam and Eve may have had the ‘Light of God’ within them. And this may be why angels glow so gloriously. Blood and sacrifice and pain and death come with the Fall. ‘The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."’ Genesis 2; 23 Not ‘my flesh and blood’ as we would probably say.)

“and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease” He did. Immediately upon His death on the cross, the skies darkened and an earthquake rent the curtain in the Temple – from THE TOP DOWN – that separated the ‘Holy Place’ from ‘the Most Holy Place’, symbolizing that all men could now come directly before God, without the need for rituals, sacrifices, or the intermediary of a ‘priest’ or a ‘Queen of Heaven.’

We now have a ‘High Priest’ in Heaven, as an advocate for all who truly believe in Him.

(The curtain by the way, was of thick interwoven material, very heavy and very resistant to penetration. It was about a ‘hand span’ thickness. So definitely not one of those diaphanous, see through ‘curtains’ we keep finding in ‘the Arabian Nights’!)

“and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Within a generation The Temple had been pulled down stone by stone, and Jerusalem was made ‘desolate’ – because the Jews did not recognise their Messiah when He came.

In 34 AD the official Sanhedrin formally repudiated the Gospel of Our Lord, began persecuting Christians and stoned Stephen to death. Within a few months of that, Saul, the great ‘persecutor’ of Christians – who had held the coats for people stoning Stephen – received his Damascus road experience, and began to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

All done and dusted.

Prophecy complete.

I see no reason whatsoever to break off the 70th week and separate it into an indeterminate future. This is the Jesuit contrived doctrine of Futurism, expounded by the Jesuit Franscisco Ribera in the 16th Century, to counter the Protestant reformation that clearly identified the Papacy as the anti-Christ system. By pushing everything, including ‘anti-Christ’ – now interpreted as an individual rather than an organised system – into the future, the ‘heat’ was taken off the Papacy. Many have fallen for it.

(Note that I am talking about a political system – the papacy – and NOT all Roman Catholics, many of whom are wonderfully good, Christian and selfless people. My own mother and father-in-law were.)

This is becoming quite a long post, so I’m going to break it in two.

The second post will show you how the second prophecy uncovered, and brought to my attention by Dewey Bruton, wonderfully deals with the final period, which will see Our Lord anointed –

“to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

In this second prophecy we are given the timing. No ‘rapture’; no ‘Mr Big’ anti-Christ; no seven years of horror for those ‘left behind.’

Instead we now have to shift to the Book of Revelation for the events that will – and are already – coming upon us. But the precise time-span and years can be identified from the Prophecy of the Second Coming now unlocked from within Daniel’s verses.

Some of us will ‘not see death.’

Those of us alive at the end – 2016/17 – will be gathered from the four corners of the Earth by Christ’s Angels, to join those Christians who are resurrected from Sheol.

“So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.” (Mat 24 : 23)

“And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.” (Luke 21 : 28)

In my second post I am going to tell you something about how all of this ‘future’ seven years of tribulation, ‘rapture’ and ‘Mr Evil’, as a personal human antichrist, came about. And who is behind it!

But for now I’m going to get a hot lemon and honey, and go to bed.

God Bless

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Finaldash on Fri Dec 24, 2010 3:49 pm

Hi Stephen I've been hesitant reviewing Wohlberg's teaching before because he's Seventh Day Adventist, accepted as a cult, how do you feel about that?
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:54 pm

Hi Finaldash,

Hi Stephen I've been hesitant reviewing Wohlberg's teaching before because he's Seventh Day Adventist, accepted as a cult, how do you feel about that?


I don’t let such considerations deter me from examining information presented by anyone.

Even though the 7 Day Adventist movement grew out of the ‘Millerite’ movement of the 1830s and 1840s. Those dates alone, when they involve major new input into the direction of mankind’s thinking, feeling and philosophy, ought to put all student’s of ‘the occult’ (which I was from the age of twelve, until Our Lord drew me to Him a few years ago) on the alert. I will explain why in my follow-up post.

In any case, although I am not formally a ‘seventh day Adventist’ – nor yet a member of any organised church denomination – I have, since being drawn irresistibly to Our Lord a few years ago, tried to privately keep the Sabbath (Saturday – the end of the week) as my personal day of uninterrupted worship and scriptural study.

The fourth commandment is quite clear and unambiguous: “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.”

To break the fourth commandment by not keeping the Sabbath day as one’s personal day of remembrance and reverence of Our Father and His works is actually to break TWO commandments – obviously the fourth, but also the second: “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.” To worship on Sunday is to worship on the FIRST day of the WEEK which has long been SATAN’S DAY – the ‘sun god’ as he sees himself.

So TWO commandments clearly broken for the price of ONE, and most Christians do not even know what they are doing, or that Sunday worship was established by Constantine (and later ratified by the Papacy) specifically to maintain worship of the pagan gods and their ‘master’ – Baal, or Satan.

“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.”

Anyway, coming back to your original enquiry, I quoted Steve Wohlberg because, in my opinion, he is very clear in his exposition of some matters. And on most things he seems to be in agreement with the ‘church fathers’, and particularly the great Protestant Reformers – as I am myself – and they obviously studied scripture meticulously, and taught what they found, long before ‘seventh day Adventism.’

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:25 am

Daniel’s Prophecies – Part 2

I don’t know how familiar most of you are with occultic practices and Eastern meditation techniques. I have a long familiarity with such. From 12 years of age in 1962!

It started with reading Dennis Wheatley ‘black magic’ novels! Today the Harry Potter series fulfills the same ‘purpose’ for our own children. And yes, it is a definite ‘purpose’. From the ‘harmless fun’ of the ‘delightful Harry Potter stories of witchcraft and magic’, that ‘encourages children to use their imagination’ – a key element in the occult, where it becomes known as controlled visualisation – many little ‘Satanists’ are being ‘seeded’, and being lost to Christ.

(I now just ‘dustbin’ any occult material I find still tucked away in my house.)

First of all, know that the Devil, Fallen Angels and demons are real. They are personalities just like you and I. We have no chance against them, except through long and laborious occult ceremonies to limit and control them (and even then they will eventually find a weakness).

But our assured defence as faithful and believing Christians is to claim the Authority and Protection of Our Lord. No demon can stand against that.

“Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.” (Luke 10: 19)

Even Satan himself cannot bring all his terrible power against us, unless Our Father, for whatever His reasons, first grants him authority to do so. (As in the Book of Job. And even then Satan’s power was limited by God. He couldn’t just go out and slaughter Job!)

Know also that there is a very real spiritual war in progress, conducted just like a military, or ‘political’, campaign from the demonic realms. We, humanity, are both the pawns and the prize in this struggle. And Satan’s chosen ‘weapon of mass destruction’ of a ‘God-fearing’ humanity is deception.

We are under attack.

Christianity is under attack.

Satan – unlike most who call themselves Christians, apparently! – reads and studies the Bible (like any good field commander who can get hold of his opponents’ plans), and he KNOWS that the end is very close now.

(Incidentally, the next time Christmas Day falls on a Sabbath is 25 December 2016. Another strange little coincidence that might give you ‘goose bumps’ after we get into Daniel’s Second Prophecy of Our Lord’s Second Coming. It may be the last ‘Christmas Day’ on Earth.)

Many Satanists (and there are millions of them scattered throughout the earth at the moment) truly believe that Satan is going to be the victor against God in the war for humanity and the earth. They believe that their ‘Master’s’ strategy of deceptions is proving so successful, and a foolish humanity is becoming so turned against God (even willingly and enthusiastically!), that His Son, Jesus Christ, will simply abdicate His authority, and leave us all to the rulership of Satan.

That’s a sobering thought!

Satan himself may or may not be convinced. But even if he perceives himself defeated it won’t stop his relentless war against us … right up until the end. Like Hitler in his bunker in Berlin in 1945, he will – in his wrath – be prepared to destroy everything around him as he goes down himself.

Which is why Christ told us that, “… except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.” (Mat 24: 22)

Help is on the way.

“Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.” (Jeremiah 17: 7)

In my previous post on Daniel’s prophecy of Our Lord’s First Coming – based on 70 weeks interpreted as 7 years for each week, or ‘a year for a day’ – I promised to tell you who is behind all this biblically indefensible ‘rapture’, ‘7 years of tribulation’, and ‘devilishly attractive’, Mr Evil, anti-Christ figure hype.

Satanists know their ‘Master’ has a history. That he has laid plans and put them into effect – using his servants, both ‘other dimensional’ and human – just like Our God.

Satan’s ‘other dimensional’ servants are ‘fallen angels’ ( a third of all those created by God, apparently!), ‘principalities’, ‘powers’, ‘authorities’, and legions of demonic ‘foot soldiers’ – many of whom were ‘the Nephilim’ wiped out by the Great Flood, but who do not die because they were born of fallen angels (immortals, whom only God can destroy) and ‘the daughters of men.’

Satan has a complete and massive supernatural army, structured and organised, and dedicated to the service of their master’s goal – i.e. the destruction of a humanity that should be dedicated to the love and ‘glorification’ of Our Father and His Son.

In the early 1700s Satan foresaw – through his reading of God’s scripture – that the world was about to change dramatically, preparatory to the increasingly rapid approach, and final ‘rushing in’, of the ‘end times.’ (The exact position I believe we are at now.)

Satan foresaw the ‘industrial revolution’, the rapid advances in technology that would follow, the advent of a ‘computer-based’ world, and vastly increased and instantaneous communication between all parts of the world, around which more and more people would travel and come to see parts of the earth, and the life-styles’ of other peoples, that they had never had direct access to before.

Human perspectives and technological capability (and therefore life-styles) were about to change dramatically from what they had been for millennia before.

Satan accordingly changed tactics. There is no doubt that he is a brilliant commander and strategist. And no wonder. He was created with all perfection by Our Father.

“Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
“Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
“Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.” (Ezekiel 28: 12 – 15)

The strategy of Satan from the early 1700s –

Prior to the 1700s, and the first decades of that century, one could find in any city throughout Europe ‘witches’, ‘warlocks’, ‘magicians’, ‘astrologers’, and ‘sorcerers’. All the things God hates.

And for a fee, one could obtain prognostications about one’s future; hidden information about friends and foes; love potions to stir the heart of the object of desire; or curses to injure, ruin, or kill one’s ‘enemies’. (It’s interesting that Gabriele Amorth, Chief Exorcist of the Vatican, says that such malign curses – the evil eye – are the main source of ‘demonisation’ of individuals today! Through the rituals of ‘black magic’, voodoo and macumba.)

So the demonic was very much in evidence; everyone knew it; everyone was more or less wary of demonic powers; and everyone believed in Satan and his servants – either fearfully, or as an apprentice to the demonic realms.

Many people looked to God and Jesus if for no other reason than to feel protected against such forces.

So Satan decided it was time for his legions to disappear from overt manifestation in human affairs. They were to hide themselves. And within a couple of generations Satan had pulled off his greatest coup. He had convinced much of the ‘educated’ world that he and his cohorts didn’t exist.

And today, something like 70% of the public do not believe in a real personality known as Satan or the Devil.

Many of the New Age, however, believe that our reality is created by our own mind; that the Devil does not exist unless we ‘imagine’ him into existence; that ‘darkness’ is only the absence of light; and if we chuck enough ‘love and light’ at it the darkness will disappear!

Big mistake!

The Devil and his legions are very much alive and well as autonomous beings, with personalities, attitudes and loyalties just like us, and are planning (with the assistance of their corrupted human puppets) what they call ‘the Black Awakening’ (research the ‘deliverance minister’ – Protestant equivalent of Exorcist – Russ Dizdar on this) in the very near future.

And Satan is now established at the head of all worldly positions of power – i.e. governments, the ‘rich men of the earth’, ‘think tanks’, ‘New Age organisations’ ( like Benjamin Crème’s ‘Share International’, Alice Bailey’s ‘Lucis Trust’ and the Baha’i faith – all of which have offices in the United Nations), and ‘religious institutions’ like the Vatican. ("From some fissure the smoke of satan entered into the temple of God." – Pope Paul VI, June 29, 1972)

But everyone knows – puffed up with their foolish self-pride and wilfull ignorance – that the ‘Devil’ is just a fairy story to frighten gullible people and small children. He doesn’t really exist. He was just part of the cunning ‘control system’ that is the Bible! And all this is repeated uncritically by people who refuse to read the Bible. (It’s a bit like critiquing Shakespeare without ever having actually read any of his work!)

So the Devil doesn’t exist in the popular public perception.

Really?

People will know soon enough!

But you see how brilliant that strategy alone was. How do people ever get to grips with their real enemy, who is the root source of ALL horror, corruption and evil on this planet, if they not only no longer know who he is, but even refuse to consider who he is – and the ‘behind-the-scenes’ dimension from which he is orchestrating their downfall – even when they are told?!

Hand in hand with the disappearance of demonic activity from obvious presence upon the earth, Satan planned to inject destructive doctrines – like a virus in a computer system – to destroy people’s belief in scripture, and bring the whole world to the point where humanity was almost totally on a course of automatic self-destruction having repudiated Christ and His Gospel as a result of slavish adherence to false teachings.

Satan ordered hypnotism to be brought out of the hidden realms of the occult, and given the mantle of scientific respectability, in order to open peoples minds to demonic influence while they thought they were ‘contacting’ past-life experiences and other worlds through a scientific and non-occult practice. Satan chose Mesmer to introduce this in the late 18th Century, and ‘mesmerism’ soon became respectable as a scientific ‘research tool’, and also a therapeutic practice as it seemed to assist in the removal of addictions, and could be used as ‘anaesthesia’ in surgery and dentistry, thereby allowing pain-free operations.

Used as research it eventually seemed to confirm ‘past lives’ and ‘other worlds’ and life-sustaining planets, etc., and eventually led back – this time with ‘scientific respectability’ – into a spiritual world view Satan intended. A world view without God.

To this end the Age of Enlightenment (or Age of Reason) followed toward the end of the 18th Century, in which many so-called intelligentsia seemed to take a perverse and uninformed delight in championing a Universe without God. A ‘type’ of this growing attitude was demonstrated by Pierre Simon Laplace, who, when Napoleon commented on the absence of God in Laplace’s cosmic system, replied haughtily: “I had no need of that hypothesis.”

The excesses of the French Revolution, however, especially in its initial phases as a ‘Revolution for Reason’, made many begin to doubt the ‘benefits’ of a Universe entirely without God. But although mankind was developing a hunger for God and spiritual values again, it had been broken off from its firm foundations built on Christian roots.

Now we see Satan’s genius once more.

He seeded the introduction of a ‘religious world view’ (come to fruition today in the New Age movement) that was no longer centred on Our Creator God.

The assault began big time in the first half of the 19th Century, and is continuing to this day.


And at this point I think I had better break off what is again becoming a large post, and continue with a new, following post.

I hope I am not driving you all to distraction on this, but if you follow me through to the end you will be able to understand much. It is not my own wild imagining. What I am telling you I could reference and cross reference to many sources, but the posts would be covered with links and quotations, and I would rather just tell it.

And as I’m ‘home alone’ on Christmas Day, drinking warm fluids and unable to receive or visit anyone so as not to pass on my ‘flu germs, I’m happy at the keyboard.

And I do have my rugged old ‘chocolate’ Labrador with me, and two cats, so I’m far from feeling lonely.

:itsgood:

God Bless,

Steve
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Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:13 am

Daniel’s Prophecies – Part three

Hi Guys,

You may need to strap yourselves in for this one. We are going on a wild ride that will explain much about our world at the moment. I encourage you research all the names and information I am about to give you. It’s easily done through Google these days. That way I can concentrate mainly on just telling the facts, names, people, and places, leaving you to follow up with more in depth research in any areas that may interest you.

So here we go –

Exhausted and sickened by the horrors and excesses of the French Revolution (1789 – 1799), fought under the banners of ‘rationalism’, ‘Godlessness’ and the socialist style slogan ‘Liberty, Equality, Fraternity’, and the Napoleonic Wars that followed, raging across Europe, Asia Minor and North Africa, and fought on land and sea for the next 15 years (until Napoleon’s final defeat at Waterloo in 1815), mankind was hungry – even desperate – once again for some deeper meaning and purpose in lives that had become, demonstrably, ‘nasty, brutish and short.’

All as orchestrated by ‘the Supreme Commander’ of the fallen angels and the demonic realm.

Some men of course, sickened by the bloodshed they had lived through (some for most of their lives!), completely repudiated God with the ‘soon-to-become-commonplace’ mantra: “How could a good and loving God allow such evil, cruelty and suffering?” This group began to seek a man-made ‘salvation’ in what they saw as a progressive and liberating development in the rapidly increasing areas of ‘scientific knowledge’, and it’s ‘natural’ (i.e. not needing a God) laws, combined within a humanist philosophy that saw ‘man as the measure of all things’, and which would eventually aim to develop political systems whose goal would be ‘the greatest good for the greatest number.’

Satan was delighted with those who became caught up in this humanistic rationalism and ‘philosophy’. After all, this philosophic trend was kicking out God the Father from His place in Creation! This was a line of development that Satan – like a battlefield commander spotting an exploitable weakness – was quickly to focus upon and develop.

By the way, when I speak as above about Satan I am NOT being poetic. Any informed occultist or higher level Satanist knows that the above is what happened. And that strategies and tactics were laid, and events guided and weaknesses exploited in just the same way that Field Marshal Montgomery (‘the Desert Rat’) managed his armies in North Africa fighting against the German armies under the command of General Rommel (‘the Desert Fox’).

You must begin to truly understand that Satan is a real – albeit angelic (but fallen) – personality of immense wisdom, knowledge and power. And he has an agenda which he works toward relentlessly – i.e. the destruction of humanity ‘in the image of God’, and its enslavement, and compulsory worship of himself, on a conquered and corrupted Earth.

The fact that he is going to fail in his plans, however, and that at least some of humanity are going to hold fast to Our Lord until the end, doesn’t deter him from bringing his best efforts to bear.

Just as Adolf Hitler worked ceaselessly to establish ‘the Thousand year Reich’, and continued to do so even when all around him knew that the cause was lost!

And just as for a number of years Hitler appeared to be unstoppable and winning, so too Satan is having his day.

So … the rationalists and ‘humanists’ had already begun to take themselves off down the path of a world without God – they “had no need of that hypothesis!” – and were busily formulating their ideas that ‘man is the measure of all things’, and planning a Utopia on Earth to be realised as a result of man’s scientific discoveries, technological developments, and developing socio-political theory.

Satan would exploit this foolishness big time. How he did so still holds people blinded and in thrall to a godless universe today. We’ll look at Satan’s tactics here later. But right now I want to get on to one of the most fascinating episodes in occult history – i.e. the re-introduction of spirituality to a spiritually hungry humanity … but spirituality Satan style!

Having ordered his forces to withdraw from overt demonic activity in the early 1700s, thereby encouraging the idea – very successfully – that Satan and demons and a demonic realm do not REALLY exist, Satan sent his army back in again in the first half of the 19th Century – 1800s. But this time they were not to terrorise people, but rather appear as ‘angels of light’, ‘guardian spirits’ and helpful ‘guides’. They were to bring ‘messages of hope’ from ‘dead relatives’, past lives, and other worlds.

And the great technique – or basis – that facilitated many aspects of this strategy was the established, and now scientifically ‘reputable’, technique of ‘hypnotism’ – or ‘mesmerism’ or ‘animal magnetism’ which were two names under which it continued to be known for some time, until the term ‘hypnotism’ won out as being more ‘scientifically respectable.’ (Note how the careful choice of terms to create a comfort zone around a subject is itself a form of hypnotism!)

And from hypnotism, of course, eventually spun off all the horrors of 'brain washing’ and ‘mind control’ techniques, and the creation of ‘multiple personalities’ and ‘sleepers’ awaiting a signal (post-hypnotic trigger) to propel them into action as they have been conditioned and trained.

Prior to Satan’s decision to introduce hypnotism to humanity as a whole, it had been a firmly occult technique. One of Satan’s ‘dark secrets’. A secret of control over others, as individuals and in groups.

So we can see today what just one of Satan’s secrets can do to humanity. A secret that most people have no trouble at all accepting as a reputable medical practice.

Hypnotists are visited to assist with removing compulsive addictions; removing the pain of a broken love affair; overcoming phobias like fear of heights or spiders; enhancing confidence for public speaking; or even for regression into ‘past lives’ or the ‘inter-birth’ state!

And being hypnotised, particularly on a regular basis, opens the door to demonic intrusion. Having got used to relinquishing control of one’s personality, it is an easy step to accept the entrance of a ‘guiding spirit’ or ‘higher power’. The welcome mat for the demons is laid before the door.

The above understanding alone should convince us of the seriousness of God’s one command to Adam and Eve – not to eat of the ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil.’ And also enable us to understand the consequences that followed. God had to stop the rot stone dead, or watch terrible evil proliferate throughout his Creation. He had to cast Adam and Eve out of Eden and set a Cherub guard before the Tree of Life, lest the ‘children of Adam’ become evil immortal!

The onslaught begins –

Enter Andrew Jackson Davis, born in 1826 in Orange County New York. At an early age Davis demonstrated ‘gifts of clairvoyance’ – read ‘demonic intrusion!’ – apparently ‘hearing voices’ in his head and receiving visions. He persuaded his family to re-locate on the basis of such visions.

After being ‘mesmerised’ in 1844, Davis apparently succumbed to a ‘deep magnetic sleep’ in which state the human body became transparent to him, enabling him to accurately diagnose medical problems. This ability became enhanced when, in the same year, he wandered off in a trance in which he claims to have met the Greek physician Galen, and also the seer Emmanuel Swedenborg (read as ‘lying demons!’) – both of whom offered their ‘wisdom’ and assistance in Davis’ diagnoses, and ‘illuminated’ him.

Davis caused quite a stir at the time. Wrote some books on ‘spiritism’. And generated an enthusiastic following.

Here is an example of some of his writings (automatically dictated by his guides – i.e. demons) on the Creation.

"In the beginning the Univercoelum was one boundless, undefinable, and unimaginable ocean of Liquid Fire.

It was without forms, for it was but one Form. It had not motions, but it was an eternity of Motion. It was without parts, for it was a Whole. Particles did not exist, but the Whole was as one Particle.

There were not suns, but it was one Eternal Sun. It had no beginning and it was without end. It had not circles, for it was one Infinite Circle. It had not disconnected power, but it was the very essence of all Power. Its inconceivable magnitude and constitution were such as not to develop forces, but Omnipotent Power.

"Matter and Power were existing as a Whole, inseparable. The Matter contained the substance to produce all suns, all worlds, and systems of worlds, throughout the immensity of Space. It contained the qualities to produce all things that are existing upon each of those worlds. The Power contained Wisdom and Goodness, Justice, Mercy and Truth. It contained the original and essential Principle that is displayed throughout immensity of Space, controlling worlds and systems of worlds, and producing Motion, Life, Sensation and Intelligence, to be impartially disseminated upon their surfaces as Ultimates.''


As you can see, God has disappeared from any involvement in His Creation. In fact, God has just plain disappeared. Period.

The idea of an eternal, unified, impersonal ‘force’ (‘a ‘god of forces’ – ‘may the force be with you’) begins to be introduced to humanity as part of the deal of Satan’s ‘spiritual revival’. A spiritual revival without God!

Satan’s demonic army had returned, in their new role as helpful guides, instructors and educators.

Enter Phineas Quimby, born in New Hampshire in 1802.

Quimby suffered in his youth from many illnesses, particularly ‘consumption’ (tuberculosis). In his twenties and thirties he had seemed to notice that certain states of mind, that he perceived as ‘highs’ of excitement, and which Quimby initially generated through ‘carriage trips’ to new places, and later through vigorous horse riding, seemed to alleviate his sufferings. Although we may think that an interest in one’s surroundings, fresh air, and healthy exercise, would probably be the main impetus to improvement of one’s health, Quimby definitely conceived the idea that his ‘states of mind’ were the key.

In 1838, therefore, Quimby began an enthusiastic study of the new ‘science’ of mesmerism. (Are we beginning to perceive a pattern here?)

Quimby progressed quickly, finding a subject (or, rather, having one ‘brought’ to him) called Lucius Burkmar, who he could mesmerise easily and who, in the condition of ‘magnetic trance’, was able to diagnose illnesses and prescribe treatments that resulted in cure.

Quimby quickly noticed that some of Burkmar’s prescriptions were put together from ingredients that were medically neutral, even valueless. But they worked anyway! He had observed the phenomena that we rationalise today as ‘the placebo effect’, and which is, in reality just more of the power of ‘hypnotism’ through ‘faith in idols’ (in this case the prescription) and the person who introduces them.

The ‘placebo effect’ is nothing less than a practical and unrecognised application of idolatry. In this case it may appear beneficial and curative, but the obvious power of idolatry, which takes over our minds and being, serves to show us why Our Heavenly Father hates and condemns it, and why it is a weapon of Satan.

There’s lot’s of interesting stuff on the web about Phineas Quimby, who is considered by many to be the founder of the ‘New Thought’ movement, as it was known, and who came to believe in the power of our human minds as being the factor behind our physical constitution of either robust good health or debilitating illness. This later developed further in New Age teachings into the; ‘our mind controls our reality’ teachings; the best selling book, and film blockbuster, ‘the Secret’; and the ‘we and the Universe are all one eternal mind-only substance’ philosophy.

Quimby seemed to be quite a personable fellow. He later became able to make his own diagnoses when in ‘magnetic trance’ (i.e. under demonic influence), and opened his own medical practice in Portland, Maine. By that time he had written a fairly substantial body of work, setting out his ideas of the ‘primacy of mind’ in treating illness, and speaking of God as a ‘warm, loving, universal power’ within all of us. (Yep. The demons were playing Satan’s same old tune! As ordered.)

One of Quimby’s patients was Mary Baker Eddy, who was impressed with his ideas of the powers of the mind and demonstrations of healing, and incorporated some of his ‘philosophy’ into her ‘Church of Christ – Scientist’ (Christian Science)

Phineas Quimby died in his home in Belfast, Maine in January 1866. He is still venerated and read by quite a few in the ‘New Age Movement’, and you can find all his works freely available on-line.

Now here comes the big one, that set the whole world alight with excitement about spiritual realms, and communication with ‘the other side’: The Fox Sisters!

The origins of what has become known as the ‘spiritualist movement’, a world-wide phenomena now, began in the home of the Fox family in Hydesville New York on the evening of March 31, 1848.

Incidentally, the movement was first termed ‘spiritist’ NOT ‘spiritualist’, spiritism being a more honest interpretation of procedures that claim to deal in contact with ‘spirits’. However the truth invariably makes some feel uncomfortable, and so the stark term ‘spiritism’ became more acceptably translated into ‘spiritual-ism.’ Another neat little example of self-hypnosis (or self-mesmerism), that now permeates all our lives.

The house that the Fox family moved into in December 1847 came with a reputation for being haunted, and there were several instances already reported of ‘raps’, ‘knockings’ and other inexplicable noises. In fact the previous tenant moved out of the house because he couldn’t take it any longer. The Fox’s moved in.

The key players in what subsequently transpired were the three sisters Leah, Margaret and Kate Fox.

To quote from Wikipedia:

During the night of March 31, Kate challenged the invisible noise-maker, presumed to be a "spirit", to repeat the snaps of her fingers. "It" did "It" was asked to rap out the ages of the girls. "It" did. The neighbours were called in, and over the course of the next few days a type of code was developed where raps could signify yes or no in response to a question, or be used to indicate a letter of the alphabet.

The girls addressed the spirit as "Mr. Splitfoot" which is a nickname for the Devil. Later, the alleged "entity" creating the sounds claimed to be the spirit of a peddler named Charles B. Rosma, who had been murdered five years earlier and buried in the cellar. Doyle claims the neighbors dug up the cellar and found a few pieces of bone, but it wasn't until 1904 that a skeleton was found, buried in the cellar wall. No missing person named Charles B. Rosma was ever identified.



Kate and Margaret were sent away to nearby Rochester during the excitement — Kate to the house of her sister Leah, and Margaret to the home of her brother David — and it was found that the rappings followed them.

Amy and Isaac Post, a radical Quaker couple and long-standing friends of the Fox family, invited the girls into their Rochester home. Immediately convinced of the genuineness of the phenomena, they helped to spread the word among their radical Quaker friends, who became the early core of Spiritualists. In this way appeared the association between Spiritualism and radical political causes, such as abolition, temperance, and equal rights for women.

The Fox girls became famous and their public séances in New York in 1850 attracted notable people including William Cullen Bryant, George Bancroft, James Fenimore Cooper, Nathaniel Parker Willis, Horace Greeley, Sojourner Truth and William Lloyd Garrison. They also attracted imitators, or perhaps encouraged people who previously had hidden their gifts. At any rate, during the following few years, hundreds of persons would claim the ability to communicate with spirits.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters

The rest, as they say, is history.

Despite the curious incident of Margaret declaring the whole thing had been a contrived fraud (in 1888) and then attempting to ‘recant’ her ‘confession’ (a sequence of events not uncommon among mediums who quarrel and fall out with one another), the new movement of ‘spiritualism’ took the world by storm.

Across Europe and America, and across social strata of ‘crowned heads’, merchants, and the humble ‘workers’, table-rapping, chair-knocking, Ouija board ‘evenings’, seances, etc. were suddenly ‘all the rage’ as people sort to generate both meaning and excitement within their lives by contacting the spirits of the dead, speaking to dead relatives (and even deceased pets!) and learning, as they thought, ‘secret knowledge!

Satan and his army were back in business! And this time disguised as ‘angels of light’ and ‘guiding spirits’, so that humanity had no idea what it was dealing with, and as the decades rolled by Satan more and more became just a silly story. A cartoon character dressed in red and carrying a trident. Or a fantasy figure in ‘supernatural’ adventure stories like Harry Potter or Angels and Demons.

And that remains the popular image of Satan today. One can imagine Satan echoing the words of George Bush: “Mission accomplished.”

From the dissemination of false ideas within ‘spiritualist’ teachings, humanity easily went on to accept ‘direct contact’ with a now largely accepted ‘spirit world’ (or ‘inter-dimensional’ or ‘shamanic’ world), through such practices as ‘channeling’, finding a ‘spirit guide’, ‘automatic writing’, or ‘shamanic journeying’ under the influence of ‘sacred mushrooms’, plants, drugs (mescaline, LSD) and specially prepared tobaccos.

And following on from that came Madame Helena Blavatsky who channeled the ‘ascended masters’ Koot Hoomi, Morya, and Djwal Khul, and who wrote the immensely influential occult works under their (i.e. Satan’s) guidance, entitled Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine. Copies of both works are to be found in the United Nations headquarters – the Rockerfeller Building (a ‘rich man of the earth’) – today.

‘Master’ Djwal Khul described himself thus: “a Tibetan disciple of a certain degree, and this tells you but little, for all are disciples from the humblest aspirant up to and beyond The Christ Himself.”

Madame Blavatsky founded the ‘Theosophical Society’, which upon her death in 1891, fell under the guidance of Mrs Annie Besant – marxist and co-freemasonist (the womens’ lodge).

On Annie Besant’s death in 1933 the torch passed to Alice Bailey – another furious channeler (therefore demon infested), who continued channeling our old friend, and Helena Blavatsky’s ‘ascended Master’, Djwal Khul.

Alice Bailey founded an organistion called ‘Lucifer Publishing Co’ to promote the spreading of the Theosophical Society’s doctrines in 1928. It’s name was later changed to the more palatable ‘Lucis Trust’, and it has permanet offices in – guess which building? – the United Nations headquarters today.

The influence of these women – or, rather, Satan’s influence through them – on our world, and the bloodshed their doctrines of racial purity and evolving ‘super-humanity’ justify, is staggering.

Even Adolf Hitler had copies of Blavatsky’s ‘channeled’ writings PERMANENTLY on a table by his bedside!

OK.

It’s been a bit of a long haul, but the end is now in sight.

I need to go back in the next post and show how Satanic influence has permeated our Christian denominations, and in particular how and why a false doctrine of a ‘rapture’ was introduced, which then led easily into a ‘seven year period of tribulation’ and a ‘Mr Big anti-Christ’ who is yet future to us and has not yet appeared on history!

I hope it will be with a great sense of relief that you see that you can let go of the burden of this tortuous, divisive, false flag of ‘rapture, tribulation, and anti-Christ’ doctrine.

After that, in light of the knowledge we have now amassed about the real spiritual war that has been in progress for the last few centuries, we can go on to wrap up the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy.

So I haven’t been ignoring some of the questions that have been raised in peoples prior posts, but I realised that we can go on firing ‘machine-gun hermeneutics’ at each other endlessly, cherry-picking words, phrases and verse from the breadth of scripture to bolster our chosen arguments. There’s no end to it. It’s just the kind of destructive set-up Satan loves.

But once we can actually get out of that loop and see what is really happening in this war, in ‘real time’ – and I know that is not easy without a fund of knowledge most people do not possess – we find that Daniel’s 70 weeks quickly falls into self-explanatory place.

We also realise that we are now within the last years of the end times!

So I will also, in a later post, suggest the specific, tangible, unmistakeable events that you can expect to happen next. Spelled out in the Book of Revelation.

There is one event that nobody on this planet will be able to miss, and when that goes off everything else will start to fall in. But we’ll discuss that in due course.

God Bless,

Steve
Stephen
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:13 am
Location: UK

Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:01 pm

Daniel’s Prophecies – Part Four

After some further background in this post concerning the ‘spiritual warfare’ that we are all now engaged in, we’re finally going to get around, in the next post, to seeing how the deception of the ‘rapture’ doctrine was sown, and disseminated within Christianity; how it was eventually built up into a 3-part delusion of a rapture; a 7 year period of tribulation; and the teaching of an individual ‘Mr Cool and Nasty’ anti-Christ who is yet to arrive on the stage of history.

We’re not going to continue to scour the scriptures for supportive hermeneutics in this approach. We are going to try and step out of what seems – over these issues – to have become a never-ending, tail-chasing loop, where everybody feels ‘dug-in’ enough within their own supportive quotes not to feel the need to even consider budging from their position. So instead, we shall look at real personalities, real events and real demonic influence, surrounding the introduction of these strange ‘rapture’ teachings, absolutely unheard of and not mentioned in any way by the most brilliant minds of Christendom prior to the 19th Century.

After that it will be a simple matter to look at the straightforward prophetic interpretation of Daniel’s 70 weeks, and prophecy concerning ‘anti-Christ’, and to see clearly how the enemy has been using false teaching to blind and fool Our Lord’s people, and to set them up for ‘great deception.’

I am not, by the way, in any way discounting the importance of studying scripture itself from within itself. I believe Biblical scripture to be the inerrant word of God, accurate and truthful on all matters recorded – including a six-day creation, a young 6,000 year old earth and a worldwide Noahic flood around 2,400 BC. (And this by the way, fits the current up to date scientific data, which shows a billions of years old universe and earth and an accidental random evolution from nothing – which blew up for no reason and created time, space and matter! – to be a ludicrous, and quite deliberate, contrivance. Like global warming!)

It is just that for a long time now I have observed people hurling biblical quotations back and forth at each other endlessly, in support of their chosen belief in rapture, ‘no rapture’, pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib, and simply doing no more than generate frustration and anger with each other. A typical demonic set-up!

So when we see how this destructive virus entered the perfectly healthy and complete body of Christian teaching, we are then going to see exactly what Satan has achieved by ‘seeding’ and spreading such a false doctrine. One that is now so pervasive throughout both the evangelical churches and also the popular public imagination.

We first have to begin by looking at how the true word of God has come down to us.

It has been given to us through direct revelation to patriarchal ‘prophets’, who were themselves chosen by God, and who then declared God’s revealed word to His people as commanded by Him.

God told us we could only rely on a ‘prophet’ as being chosen by Him and speaking His word, if what was prophesied came to pass with 100% accuracy. Only then could we be assured that we were hearing God’s true word. Which, when you think about it, should be obvious to us, as God can see things throughout the complete span of history as easily as we can spot objects across the other side of a room we are in!

So today’s oft heard lauding by the popular media of certain ‘modern prophets’ as having ‘a staggering 80% accuracy’, etc., does not cut it!

In fact, as you know, false prophets – i.e. even those who prophesied one small event as being from God, and that did not come to pass – were stoned to death. Even 99% accuracy (completely out of reach by modern, so-called ‘prophets’!) was not good enough.

The word of God is 100% accurate!

God is not pleased with false prophets. Why? Well, pretty obviously, a ‘false prophet’ is declaring something that did not come from God as being the word of God. And it does not matter how ‘sincere’ within themselves a ‘false prophet’ may be, even believing that they hear the ‘voice of God.’

Lack of discernment in spiritual things is no defence – just like ‘ignorance of the law’ is never accepted as a defence.

If we think we are being ‘spoken to by God’ we should immediately challenge the source to ‘confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.’

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:” (1 John 4: 2)

Demons cannot actually make such a declaration properly! You will find this mentioned in the works of various exorcists and deliverance ministers. The demons try to come close to it, but always have to insert or delete something to water the statement down, and not really confess it as stated.

And then, how did we feel as we were ‘spoken to’? Was it a nice warm fuzzy?

Bad sign!

God’s voice is powerful, virile and uncompromising, and those who hear it often throw themselves to the ground ‘as dead’.

Many prophets, far from feeling privileged (like those today who channel ‘ascended masters’ from Tibet, or space brothers on board the ‘light ships’ of the ‘Ashtar Command’), actually began pleading and making excuses as to why they could not carry out God’s command. Even Moses, who claimed he was not eloquent enough to speak before Pharaoh (apparently he stuttered) – so God said; “Fair enough. You can take your eldest brother Aaron. He can do the talking, while you do the stuff with the staff!”

That story always makes me smile, because it is so revealingly human of Moses, and God, instead of blasting him, simply, without missing a beat, says OK, you can take Aaron. He’s a good speaker.

Then there was Jonah, who, being commanded to travel East to declare God’s judgement in Nineveh, immediately started legging it in the opposite direction. West! Even boarding ship to sale Westwards across the Mediterranean to get as far away as possible!

Poor Jonah. Trying to run in the opposite direction to the one God told him to go.

So the ship he was on became enveloped in a powerful and terrifying storm, unable to make any headway forward or back, or to make any landfall. And when Jonah miserably confessed to the ship’s crew that he was disobeying God by being on board, everyone reluctantly agreed (including Jonah) that the only solution was to sling him overboard into the raging sea.

From there into the belly of a giant undersea creature that God had waiting nearby, which eventually spat Jonah ashore back at his start point.

Realising a certain inevitability about all that was happening to him, Jonah reluctantly began making his way to Nineveh, as God had originally commanded.

I make these points to show that the experiences of the genuine prophets chosen by God to carry forth His word, were often vastly different to the excited, self-satisfied, giddy, emotional, ‘I’m so privileged’, gushing of false prophets and modern channelers of today.

The ‘false prophets’ and ‘channelers’ are channelling ‘demons’ – Satan’s soldiers – regardless that they might be having visions of the ‘Queen of Heaven’ perched in the top of a tree, or a clean-shaven Jesus who has revealed himself to them to ‘really’ be a very senior commander within the ‘Inter Galactic Federation’ – a piece of information that the world will soon be ready to understand!

And here is God’s view on trusting in the claims of ‘visionaries’ and ‘channelers’:

“And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?” (Isaiah 8 : 19)

Before we proceed further, I would ask you NOT to skip these few short You Tube links I am going to give you! I want you to see some real ‘peeping’ and ‘muttering’ from people who claim to have ‘familiar spirits’, and to be channelling from various sources, today.

The people you are going to see all have a large following. One or two have acquired material wealth as a ‘reward’ for their ‘selfless service’ to ‘the spirits’. (How much material reward did the Biblical prophets get? Isaiah was sawn in half!)

All these people are demonised – heavily under the influence of Satan’s army. The more compliant they are, and the more successful they have been in disseminating Satan’s deceptions, the higher in ‘authority’, and the more powerful, will be their controlling entity.

That is how it works in any organisation, particularly military. The average foot-soldier can be assigned guard duty, and given powers of ‘stop and search.’ However, to plan and execute the ‘taking out’ of a high tech threat deep inside enemy territory, you are going to allocate your ‘best and brightest’.

The first clip below shows us two Channelers. The first is a young lady, whose name, I think is Philippa. And she channels two entities. She starts with a ‘spirit’ called “Leah” – name of the eldest of the three Fox sisters, which I found interesting – who lives on Venus. “Leah” then moves aside so that Philippa can be taken over by ‘the Tibetan’ (always a popular title in these circles!) who apparently wants a word, and then switches back to finish off under the demonisation of the entity Leah.

After Phillipa subsides as the demons withdraw, we move on to Darryl Anka who channels a being called ‘Bashar’ – i.e. Darryl gives himself over to possession by a lying demon (probably quite high-ranking in Satan’s army, as ‘Bashar’ is very popular, with TV appearances, etc.) in front of a gullible, godless audience.

Bashar, of course, is a multi-dimensional extra-terrestrial being! (You couldn’t make this stuff up!)

Channeling extraterrestrial personalities and Spirit Energy with Telly Savalas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_v-AmohTDk


OK …

Next up is JZKnight who ‘channels’ a ‘god’ called Ramtha. (Although, according to Ramtha, the name in ‘his’ language means ‘the god.’ I refuse to capitalize it.)

JZ is possessed by Ramtha in this short clip, and is speaking in the funny, almost mock-British, accent, which is how she speaks when she gives herself over to this demon’s possession.

JZ is one of the most successful modern channelers, and one can understand how happily she embraced her ‘god’ when one learns that she was brought up in poverty and was unable to go to college.

Having spent her early life living in trailer parks, she now occupies a mansion, with stables lighted by chandeliers that house her horses.

Before Ramtha actually appeared to JZ in her kitchen (as a beautiful, bright angel! Sound familiar?) JZ was informed by a ‘psychic’ that the ‘enlightened one’ would appear to her in the near future.

Given this guy’s ‘modus operandi’ – prior announcement, appearing as a glorious and beautiful angel in a blaze of light – and noting how a complete industry has been built up around Ramtha, and that Ramtha has a detailed ‘biography’ as having been a great warrior king on earth millions of years ago, successfully leading armies of millions in a time of geo-political catastrophe, and the massive following JZKnight and Ramtha have among the godless …

… I would say that this is one of Satan’s top boys! Maybe even a fallen angel. Definitely with no less than Colonel’s tabs on his collar, anyway!

Ramtha - Be Your Own Savior

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnSZZafpf1c&feature=related


Finally, to see some really accomplished ‘peeping’ and ‘muttering’ we should take a look at the very popular ‘Lazaris’, channelled by Jach Purcel. (Obviously the name is only a vowel different from the Lazarus who Jesus loved, and restored to life. No coincidence I’m sure – but notice how the demons are simply unable to speak, repeat, plagiarize, or exactle duplicate the Holy things of our Lord and Our Father.)

According to Jach, “Lazaris is not a guru; he is not a master. He has no need for those labels. He is a friend.” Obviously, the clear implication here, is that Lazaris is far ‘evolved’ and ‘above’ all labels!

Jach goes on: “He does not take us where we do not want to go. Rather, he walks "beside us" on our individual metaphysical and spiritual journey to God/Goddess/All That Is, pointing out the interesting, the intriguing, and the helpful along the way.”

Hmm.

About the nearest we get to pinning our ‘friend’ down is a statement by Jach that he is a ‘non-dimensional being’ – which I find an interesting conundrum when I try to viualise what that might actually mean!

Anyway, short clip below as Jach also gives himself up to demonic possession.

Get ready for ‘peeps’ and ‘mutters’ on steroids!

Lazaris on Merv Griffin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXpYUbb9QUo


OK.

If you have followed me thus far, you should by now have developed – without being overcome with a sense of helplessness or fear – a serious respect for the dangerous power and capabilities of our ‘adversary’, and his highly disciplined and obedient supernatural army!

I ask you, how close does any of the above seem to you to be to ‘God speaking through His chosen prophets’?

Yet millions are devoted to the above people, and to others like them. World-wide.

And what is the essence of their message?

Yep. The same old lie of the serpent; “You can be gods”. And even, “you are already god”, you just have to start believing that and wake up to it. You create your own world. You do not need any ‘god’ to tell you what to do. You are your own god.

And it is time to outgrow old and ‘primitive’ ‘patriarchal’ religions like Judaism and Christianity. Mankind is ‘evolving’ beyond that now. They were only useful to keep us under control in the early stages of our evolution!

And I could show you worse. In the churches themselves. Crowds of people clearly under demonic influence; howling like animals; laughing helplessly unable to stop; unable to stop themselves running around and around the hall; crawling on all fours and grunting like pigs or growling like dogs; screaming and shouting ‘in tongues’ (as they think!); passing out at the touch of the ‘preacher’; and on and on.

In fact, if you want to see what I am talking about here – entirely up to you – watch this:

TEXE MARRS The Blind & The Dead 1 of 6

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xQp1UolKPU&feature=&p=B1D87CFFD8266840&index=0&playnext=1

I think – literally – that the first 2 minutes will be all you need!

I have shown the above to one or two non-Christian friends, and their reaction was laughter! They really thought it was funny. So I don’t show it to such anymore.

When I first saw it I was shocked. And as I went on through the program I became deeply sad, and filled with compassion for the poor individuals who had been brought down to such states. How the demons love to mock us! It almost brought me to tears.

But we are close to the end now. And these things must be. The ‘falling away’ is in progress.

But can you doubt any longer the very real and powerful presence of a demonic army among us? Can you really?

I wouldn’t think so.

I’m hoping that whatever your views were before on these matters – including a neutral position of no views – you are now 100% in agreement with what the Bible tells us throughout it’s pages. Namely: We are in a war! We are in a war with a highly organised supernatural army, under the strict command of Satan, and with ‘fifth columnists’ – human traitors – in positions of authority around us.

We are under attack.

“For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3: 8)

Thus prepared we can look at certain events in the early 19th Century, and begin to unravel exactly what has been going on with the introduction of a completely new teaching, apparently put together from within the scriptures, and which is now a very major component of Christianity – and end times prophecy – in most people’s minds.

God Bless,

Steve
Stephen
 
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:13 am
Location: UK

Re: Book of Daniel and Our Lord's return

Postby Stephen on Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:08 am

Hi All,

Well, here we go. Final part.

The background built up should have left no one in any doubt that we are under attack from Satan, and that great and supernatural efforts have been made to deceive us, and to turn men away from God.

Instead of these efforts being a ‘vague understanding’ that Satan is a liar and deceiver – as most Christians would at the least pay ‘lip service’ to – I think I have shown in concrete terms the ‘real time’ strategies of Satan and his servants. We have seen the satanic army in practical operation. We have seen it ‘in the field.’

So now let’s start with what the particular deception of the ‘rapture’ delusions are turning us away from. What is it that Satan is trying to conceal here? What is it that he does not want the body of Christ’s Church to know?

The following was the understanding of the Church Fathers and the brilliant Protestant Reformers up until the 1800s. . . .

Daniel’s 70 weeks

We start with: “From the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem …” (Dan 9: 25)

This was clearly identified as occurring in “the seventh year of King Artaxerxes” (Ezra 7: 7), which was 457 BC.

Applying the ‘day for a year’ principal – because alternative possibilities yield nothing – we obtain 7 + 62 weeks = 69 weeks = 69 x 7 years = 483 years, to add on to 457 BC.

This brings us to 27 AD. (457 + 27 – 1 = 483. You always deduct 1 as you go across from BC to AD, because there is no year zero. So from Summer 1 BC to Summer 1 AD = 1 + 1 – 1 = 1 year. No Summer 0)

27 AD was the year of Our Lord’s baptism by John. His anointing!

27 AD is also the start of Daniel’s 70th week.

Daniel’s 70th week is 7 days for a year, therefore 7 years. 27 AD to 34 AD (The martyrdom of Stephen)

During this seven year period, Our Lord confirmed the covenant with many (His ministry and Sacrifice); was ‘cut off’ in the midst thereof, but not for Himself (the Crucifixion); ended the ‘daily sacrifice’ – Our Lord was the final atoning sacrifice; and because of the rejection of Himself and His Apostles and His Gospel, Jerusalem was laid desolate, and the gospel was ‘taken to the gentiles.’ (Stephen’s martyrdom and Paul’s conversion – 34 AD)

Done.

Prophecy fulfilled to the letter with Our Lord’s First Advent.

No rapture.

The Anti-Christ

“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” (Daniel 7 : 25)

Who is the Anti-Christ?

Paul clearly wrote that after ‘he who lets (restrains)’ was removed, the anti-Christ would be revealed.

Our Christian predecessors understood the ‘restrainer’ to be the secular power of the Caesars. Once the Caesars fell – a prediction which Paul would have been understandably hesitant to commit to writing – the ‘little horn power’ would make his move.

The early Christians and the Protestant Reformers knew the Anti-Christ was the Papacy! It was both an ‘office’ – a ‘beast’ kingdom – and a ‘man’. Different men who occupy the same office.

And, indeed, history shows it to have been so.

The Western leg of the Roman Empire collapsed in 476 AD. In 536 AD Justinian’s (Justinian was ruling from Constantinople) General Belisarius liberated Rome from occupation by the Goths.

In 538 AD Emperor Justinian appointed the ‘Pope of Rome’ (or ‘papa’ = ‘father’) as head of the Christian Church and supreme authority over all Christendom!

The ‘little horn’ was established!

It began almost immediately to ‘wear out the saints’. I.e. to persecute.

For ‘a time (a 360 day year), ‘times’ (2 x 360 day years), and ‘the dividing of time’ (one half of a 360 day year) = 3 ½ 360 day years = 1,260 days = 1,260 years.

1,260 years added to 538 AD = 1798 AD.

1798 AD. The exact year in which Napoleon’s General, Alexandre Berthier, entered Italy, invaded the Vatican, organized the Roman republic, and took the pope Pius VI as prisoner back to Valence (France) where, after a tortuous journey under Berthier's supervision, the pope died.

Europe went wild with excitement! The Pope is dead!

But the Beast, remember, only seemed to be dead. It was, in fact, only wounded!

It was wounded by the Reformation, and seemed killed by General Berthier’s assault ‘with the sword’!

But somehow it continued to plot, to live, to survive.

To borrow from Bertolt Brecht’s brilliant poem (which was about Adolf Hitler):

“Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men.
For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard,
The *** that bore him is in heat again.”

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Bertolt_Brecht


In 1929, in the Lateran Treaty signed under Mussolini, the Papacy was re-established within the square mile of the Vatican, as a sovereign nation.

In 1995 Pope John Paul II was voted Time Magazine’s ‘Man of the Year’ – ‘Pope John Paul Superstar.’

The Papacy now heads the ‘ecumenical’ movement. The Great Apostasy.


Our Lord’s Second Coming

Our Christian forefather’s method of interpretation has become known as ‘historicism’. I.e., identifying prophecy with history as it becomes clear that it has been fulfilled. The alternatives are ‘preterism’ – confining all prophecy as having been fulfilled in the past, essentially by the time of Nero – or ‘futurism’, pushing all prophecy into a future that has not yet occurred. (Like Daniel’s 70th week, and a coming ‘rapture’!)

Our forefathers did not rush things and try to squeeze prophecy into shape. They knew that things were yet to unfold that they could not yet foresee the precise unfolding off. They trusted God to reveal such matters in His good time.

One such event is the re-establishment of Israel. A coming event that the Protestant Reformers were well aware of.

But look at how this fits Daniel’s prophecy!

“From the going forth of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem …” (Dan 9: 25)

November 29, 1947, United Nations Resolution 181, commands the restoration of the independent state of Israel, and the establishment of Jerusalem as an ‘international city.’

Is this not just as powerful a declaration as that of King Artaxerxes in 457 BC?

My view is that this is directly speaking of Our Lord’s Second Coming, and that this prophecy runs on a ‘week for a year’ principal.

We don’t need any more detail here – though there is plenty on Daniel’s Timeline

http://www.danielstimeline.com/danielstimeline.html

70 years from 1947 takes us to 2017.

Watching current events as they are unfolding leads me to conclude that we are within the last years of the ‘end times.’ And that Our Lord will soon return.


To Sum Up

Daniel’s 70 weeks contains two prophecies. Our Lord’s First Coming, and Our Lord’s Second Coming.

We have two start dates to unlock these two prophecies. 457 BC and 1947 AD.

The first prophecy is unfolded on the ‘day for a year’ principal. Or 7 years for a week.

The second prophecy unfolds on a year for a week principal.

The first 70 week prophecy has been completely fulfilled with Our Lord’s first coming, culminating in His 3 ½ year ministry; His Crucifixion; and the taking of His Gospel to the Gentiles after the martyrdom of Stephen, and conversion of Paul, in 34 AD.

The anti-Christ has been identified in history. The Papacy.

The second ’70 week’ prophecy is in progress. It will have concluded by 2017 AD.


Nowhere in the above is there any need whatsoever for a ‘rapture’; a ‘seven year period of tribulation’; or a ‘Mr Evil’ anti-Christ personality still to arrive on the scene, negotiating treaties in the Middle East.


Why Did Satan Do It?

So why did Satan seed this delusion?

First of all, let’s refresh our memories of Satan’s activities over the last 2 or 3 centuries.

Satan first of all withdrew, encouraging mankind to believe that he and his servants do not really exist, and promoting an age of ‘rationalism’ wherein the ‘intelligentsia’ decided they had no need of the ‘hypothesis’ of God.

Then, after the bloody horror of the French Revolution, with mankind in a condition of desperate hunger for spiritual meaning, but now having lost their connection to scripture, Satan sent his troops back in as angels of light with a NEW message. A message of spirituality without God. A message that mankind themselves were gods. (The lie of the serpent.)

The re-surgence of ‘spirituality’ began in the early half of the 1800s.

People became obsessessed with contacting spirits, and with all things to do with the occult.

Some, however, still wanted their spirituality to be biblically based.

OK. Satan can cater for that!

When did the ‘rapture teachings’ arrive on the scene big time?

1830 – 1840!

Given what you now know, you should immediately be suspicious!

By the way, when I first came across these teachings a couple of years ago I was stunned. They seemed so obviously false to me. So I set out to research them. I came across lots of articles and texts desperately claiming such things as that ‘the rapture’ had been taught by an ‘arabian Christian’ in the second century AD; by a learned Rabbi in Spain in the twelth century AD; or that it was ‘known’ and taught ‘secretly’ by this or that persecuted sect of Christians hundreds of years ago; etc.

The fact is, that the ‘rapture teachings’ burst upon the scene with the ‘teachings’ of a Presbyterian Minister called Edward Irving in the 1830s, who taught Christ’s soon return, and anticipated ‘spiritual gifts’ about to burst upon Christians just before.

And so they did.

In the lowlands of Scotland there was a ‘sudden outpouring’ of ‘the spirit’ among Christians, including ‘speaking in tongues’ and other ‘charismatic’ manifestations.

(You should be suspicious!)

On one particular evening a ‘vision’ came to a dangerously sick Scottish lady called Miss Margaret MacDonald. Miss MacDonald experienced ‘altered states of consciousness’, during which she was shown, in vision, that Christ’s Second Coming would itself take place in two parts! And not as a single ‘second Advent’ as all Christiandom had previously anticipated.

(You should be suspicious)

The vision showed Miss MacDonald that Christ would first ‘come in glory’ to those Christians looking for Him, and then a second time – later – when ‘every eye would see Him.’

It remained for an exceptionally brilliant theologian – John Darby – to codify and set out the rapture teachings based upon Margaret MacDonald’s visions, that we have today.

While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”
- Deuteronomy 13:1–3


http://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess025.htm


So what did Satan gain?

Confusion among Christians. Foolish arguments about nothing.

Inability to recognise the ‘end times’ as they actually approach. After all, the ‘end times’ can’t really begin until the ‘rapture’ has taken place.

A softening of resolve among many Christians who think they are going to be spared the hardships to come. Their shock and distress when they realise they are not going to be spared.

The idea that ‘I get a second chance’ if I miss the rapture. I can still be saved.

The deflecting of the understanding of who the anti-Christ is, and the ‘beast system’ he occupies. I.e. the Papacy. (This is all in place now!)

NEW WORLD ORDER.THE DEVIL IN THE VATICAN!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLp9xigjajM&feature=BF&list=PL5E179A51AC2B36A4&index=1


The fabricating of a completely false ‘end times’ scenario with a fantasy ‘anti-Christ’ as a charismatic ‘world leader’, still to appear in history, and to negotiate peace treaties with Israel and the Arabs. (Yet the anti-Christ has been with us since the days of St Paul! Working iniquity.)


So how do you feel about this now?

Are you feeling angry, and ready to weigh back in with all the quotations …

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4 : 16 – 18)

Or can you see it for what it is? A phenomenal delusion!

And let it go.

God Bless,

Steve
Stephen
 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:13 am
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