Romans 5

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

Re: Romans 5

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:19 am

Mark F wrote:Now I know the reason why this thread has gone as it has:


Ampersand wrote:
The statement of the husband's headship is given TO THE WIFE. She is to submit as the Church submits to Christ, because the husband is the head of the wife (God's words, not mine).


Abiding in His Word wrote:
Well....they are Paul's words and they are used only once in the Bible with regard to a husband and wife.




2 Peter 3:14-16;

14 "Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."


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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:51 am

The passage you posted is a very beautiful one for sure, AndCanItBe. This is saying that though Jesus was God, but didn't walk around saying "I am God" and therefore privileged, but rather in His human form, he gave up that equality and supremacy of His diety for a time for the sake of mankind. In other words, He didn't use His equality with God as an entitlement among His followers and disciples.

Paul uses that humility and self-sacrifice as an example for believers:

....make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves....

Neither can go wrong if they are trying to imitate Christ, if Christ is the center of their marriage. Sometimes I think we get so wrapped up in discussion of who has what role, or if there are roles, that we forget Christ's example to all of us as Christians. Our marriages will reflect Christ naturally if both husband and wife are emulating His example here.


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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:54 am

Mark F wrote:Now I know the reason why this thread has gone as it has:
2 Peter 3:14-16;

14 "Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."


Hello Mark F:

The very existence of a debate forum is for the purpose of discussing debatable topics such as OSAS, the rapture, divorce & remarriage, apostasy, tongues, the antichrist, Bible versions, etc.

But this particular topic, it seems, strikes at the very heart of some who sanction a perceived position and/or rank that carries privileges and entitlements that are denied to others. As I have said many times, I do understand the reluctance to relinquish those perceived privileges, but to examine them does not equate with "twisting" scripture. That accusation is unfair and uncalled for imho and I invite you to feel free to not read or participate if you find it annoying. But carefully examining scripture is very different from purposely twisting scripture.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby ampersand on Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:10 pm

Mark F,
Thanks much for the reality check. I hope you continue pointing us toward the absolute authority of Scripture whenever you determine we are straying off course.


Abiding,
I hope to respond soon to your posts. It may take a while, as I am getting swamped with various responsibilities in my 'real life'...until then...

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Re: Romans 5

Postby Mark F on Sat Apr 03, 2010 1:40 pm

The truth of the matter is that the Scriptures do say explicitly that the man is head of the wife.

1 Corinthians 11:3
But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Genesis 3:14
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”


The discussion started with the question why is man charged with the first sin when the record is clear that the woman sinned first. Evidently because man is resposible.

The discussion then turned to headship. The fact that the Scriptures declare this is a point that cannot be argued, I have quoted two passages "of Scripture" that clearly declare this as fact.

The discussion from here must be how to live this out in a real life, godly way. As Ampersand said, they are God's words, which I believe Paul's writings to be, even if there were only one passage, Paul's writings are Scripture.


So my question is this, does this board consider Paul's writings Scripture? Because if not, then yes, I would chose to not read nor participate.

If yes, the point is moot. It is a fact that man is ranked as head of the wife without exception. Then the question should be how to live that out in a manner that is pleasing in His sight and not be sinful or prideful.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:11 pm

Mark F wrote: It is a fact that man is ranked as head of the wife without exception.


The question we have been discussing is the meaning of that one word, Mark. I will not repost the many scriptures already covered, but we have already determined that there is no hint of authority in the word head, so we are examining what Paul meant by it and how the Ephesians would have understood it. You can, if you are interested, read through them to catch up.

G2776
kephalē (head)
kef-al-ay'
Probably from the primary wordκάπτω kaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively: - head.

Also, if we are to apply good rules of hermeneutic, we will not establish doctrine on one verse alone let alone one word especially when it contradicts others.

Then the question should be how to live that out in a manner that is pleasing in His sight and not be sinful or prideful.


It's difficult to see how one could be sinful or proud when one is submitting and the other is giving up his life. That's mutual servanthood one to another.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:11 pm

Yes Mark, I for one agree that Paul's writings are part of scripture, and we most definatly should not ignore or twist them around.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:14 pm

Abiding, what is your definition of the word HEAD?

Because you have given 2 definitions so far.

Is it:

Source, origin and base?

Or

Is it, Loving someone and giving one's self up for another?
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:37 pm

extravagantchristian wrote:Abiding, what is your definition of the word HEAD?


That's what we are in the process of examining in the context of marriage, extravagantchristian.

Because you have given 2 definitions so far.

Is it:

Source, origin and base?


I'll repost my premise for this if you like.

Or

Is it, Loving someone and giving one's self up for another?


Loving and giving himself up for his wife is what the husband does not what he is.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby extravagantchristian on Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:51 pm

So what does HEAD mean? If it does not denote authority?
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Mark F on Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:01 pm

The word

2776. kephale
Search for G2776 in KJVSL

kejalh kephale kef-al-ay'

from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part
most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively:--head.


is used in Mark 12:10

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.


Matthew, Mark, and Luke recorded that Jesus used this word in His quoting of Psalm 118:22-23

so I went to Psalm 118:22

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.


The word in Hebrew is defined as this,

7218. ro'sh
Search for H7218 in KJVSL

var ro'sh roshe

from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most
easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of
place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est
place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first,
forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor,
principal, ruler, sum, top.



Is it really true that we don't know what being the head really means?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

The Narrow Way
Matthew 7:13-14;
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
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Re: Romans 5

Postby daffodyllady on Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:23 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:... this particular topic, it seems, strikes at the very heart of some who sanction a perceived position and/or rank that carries privileges and entitlements that are denied to others. As I have said many times, I do understand the reluctance to relinquish those perceived privileges...


Abiding... would it not be graceful on our part to give ourselves in love to serve even the one who demands our submission? What spirit in man (woman) is it that rises up against perceived wrong? As God says, "Why do you not rather take wrong? Why do you not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?"

As I Peter 3 says, if any obeys not the Word, he is better won by a wordless sweet submission from his wife, than from any words she may produce. This is not talking just about unsaved husbands, but also 'saved but disobedient' ones. Husbands who are selfishly domineering over their wives are disobedient to the Word. And how is a godly wife to react? With not a word.

The women's rights movement tells us the opposite. We women must stand up for our rights! We must not allow men to trample on us!

For a woman to tell men in the church, that they are grasping for authority that God did not give to them, seems to me, to violate the spirit that I Peter 3 was written in.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:45 pm

Mark F wrote:The word

2776. kephale
Search for G2776 in KJVSL

kejalh kephale kef-al-ay'

from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part
most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively:--head.


is used in Mark 12:10

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.


Matthew, Mark, and Luke recorded that Jesus used this word in His quoting of Psalm 118:22-23

so I went to Psalm 118:22

The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.


The word in Hebrew is defined as this,

7218. ro'sh
Search for H7218 in KJVSL

var ro'sh roshe

from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most
easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of
place, time, rank, itc.):--band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est
place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first,
forefront, ((be-))head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor,
principal, ruler, sum, top.


Mark, this passage is speaking of the rejection of the Messiah by the Jews and their desire to trap, seize Him and condemn Him as is clearly verified by the next verse:

And they were seeking to seize Him, and yet they feared the people, for they understood that He spoke the parable against them. Mark 12:12

The continued context is that since the Jews rejected the corner stone, it would be taken away from them and offered to the gentiles.

"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. "And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust." When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. When they sought to seize Him, they feared the people, because they considered Him to be a prophet. Matthew 21:43-46

Psalm 118:22 is the prophecy and Mark 12:12, Matthew 21:43-46 and Luke 20:16 record the fulfillment of that prophecy.

The corner-stone is the foundation or beginning of a building. That corner-stone, Jesus, was rejected by the Jews but became the beginning or foundation upon which we, as living stones, (who have not rejected Him) are built up as a spiritual house.

And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1Peter 2:4-5

If there is a parallel to be drawn, it is not one of authority, but rather that Jesus is the beginning, source/foundation of the church (the church was formed by Him) , the man is the beginning/source of the woman (she was taken from him), and God was the source from which Jesus was sent in human form.

For the husband is the head (beginning/source) of the wife, as Christ also is the head (beginning/source) of the church....Ephesians 5:23

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head (beginning/source) of every man, and the man is the head (beginning/source) of a woman, and God is the head (beginning/source) of Christ. 1Cor. 11:3

He is also head (source/beginning) of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. Col 1:18

.... and not holding fast to the head (source), from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God. Col 2:19

..... but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head (source), even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love. Eph 4:15-16

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Rev. 21:6

Scripture clearly speaks of God as the origin of His Son in human form; Jesus as the source or beginning of the church; the man as the beginning of the woman. The context then in 1 Cor. 11 is that of source/origin/beginning.

But I want you to understand that Christ is the head (origin/source) of every man, and the man is the head (origin/source) of a woman, and God is the head (origin/source) of Christ. 1Cor. 11:3

For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man 1Cor. 11:8

However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 1Cor. 11:11-12

Is it really true that we don't know what being the head really means?

It's pretty clear to me. :grin:
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:30 am

Thanks, Abiding!

So, just to be clear, you are asserting that "head" in Scripture refers to "origin or source", and its meaning is limited to that?

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby extravagantchristian on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:26 am

One of the main problems with the meaning "Origon" or "source" is that it has to fit the God/Jesus relationship and it does not. Because there never was a time when Jesus did not exist. He has always existed with the father. Jesus said I AM the alpha and Omega, BEGINNING and the end.

So, Adam may be the origin of Eve, and Christ may be the origin of the Church, but Jesus has always existed so that definition of the word Head does not fit.

Not to mention, you are completely ignoring the obviouse and most straight forward meaning of the word Head.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:49 am

extravagantchristian wrote:One of the main problems with the meaning "Origon" or "source" is that it has to fit the God/Jesus relationship and it does not. Because there never was a time when Jesus did not exist. He has always existed with the father. Jesus said I AM the alpha and Omega, BEGINNING and the end.

So, Adam may be the origin of Eve, and Christ may be the origin of the Church, but Jesus has always existed so that definition of the word Head does not fit.


I did respond to this objection earlier, extravagantchristian. Perhaps you overlooked it which would be entirely understandable given the number and lenth of posts. Jesus did originate from the Father in His human form.

But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law.....Gal 4:4

Not to mention, you are completely ignoring the obviouse and most straight forward meaning of the word Head.


The straight forward meaning is clarified by the scripture itself.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her....

Any other meaning that is being read into the passage simply is not there.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:03 am

mark s wrote:Thanks, Abiding!

So, just to be clear, you are asserting that "head" in Scripture refers to "origin or source", and its meaning is limited to that?


We are discussing the word "head" in context of the relationship of Christ to the church, the man to the woman, and the husband to the wife. It is in this context that I have endeavored to show the giving and responding nature of Christ and the church (his body) and the husband and wife as opposed to a heirarchial nature presented by some. Relationships among and between believers, regardless of gender, ethnicity, or age is reciprocal, mutual, joint as fellow-heirs, are reciprocal in nature in keeping with the relationship between Christ and His church.

I present the following scriptures that clearly show Jesus' relationship to the church is one of giving Himself up for the church. This is the pattern husbands are to exemplify in their relationship to their wives:

.... who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. Titus 2:14

Christ Jesus.... who gave Himself as a ransom for all...1Titus 2:6

....and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. Eph 5:2

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age... Gal 1:3-4

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Gal 2:20

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her.....Eph 5:25 .... So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.... Eph 5:28

It is totally inappropriate for Christians to even ask, imho, who is the master?

"If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all." Mark 9:35
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:36 pm

Yes, Christ gave Himself up for the church, but this does not mean that He submits to the church. But I believe this point has been brought up before.

There is obviously, imo, more to it than that.

There is also the matter of God being the head of Christ. The Father does not submit to the Son, rather, the Son submits to the Father. There is equality, however, there is also order. But, again, this has already been pointed out in this thread.

Our relationship to Christ is explicitly stated in numerous passages that we are to obey Him, submitting ourselves to Him. Would you not agree with this?

Love in Christ,
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ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:16 am

mark s wrote:Yes, Christ gave Himself up for the church, but this does not mean that He submits to the church. But I believe this point has been brought up before.


Depends on how you're defining "submits" doesn't it? How are you defining it and where does scripture define it?

There is also the matter of God being the head of Christ. The Father does not submit to the Son, rather, the Son submits to the Father.


What scripture are you speaking of? I don't see this relationship in Ephesians 5.

There is equality, however, there is also order. But, again, this has already been pointed out in this thread.


I don't see Paul suggesting order in Ephesians relative to marriage. I do know this "order" is a popular term among those who see a heirarchy of authority assigned to a husband over his wife.

Our relationship to Christ is explicitly stated in numerous passages that we are to obey Him, submitting ourselves to Him. Would you not agree with this?


Of course I would agree that believers obey Christ!
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Mark F on Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:37 am

Ephesians 5:22-29

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.


This first verse, #22 has the word "Lord" highlighted and underlined.

This is translated from the Greek word "kurios".

2962. kurios
Search for G2962 in KJVSL

kurioV kurios koo'-ree-os

from kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller;
by implication, Master (as a respectful title):-- God, Lord, master, Sir.



This usage is in the context of a marriage and uses language of a slave and master. Hmmmm.

To me, verse 25 would be harder than 22, but that's just me.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:50 am

Mark F wrote:Ephesians 5:22-29

[i]Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23


Mark, no one is denying that the Lord Jesus Christ is Master of all. And no one is denying the Greek meaning of the word Kurios as applied to Him. This authority, however, is not designated anywhere in scripture to a husband. The word that describes the husband's relationship to his wife is "head" not kurios, and does not imply authority, but is defined and qualified in the passage by Christ's giving up of Himself, loving and cherishing the church. Again, none of the words associated with the meaning of authority is assigned to a husband.

This usage is in the context of a marriage and uses language of a slave and master. Hmmmm.


:eek: It does not such thing, Mark. A wife is nowhere called a slave nor a husband a master. Paul was never endorsing such a relationship even to those who legally owned slaves in the NT. I've heard some strange assumed doctrines unsupported by scripture relative to the husband and his authority, but this is a first implying the wife is in a position of slave.

To me, verse 25 would be harder than 22, but that's just me.


Your posts do tend to show a good deal of resistence to verse 25. But if you can see it as Paul's deliberate example of "one to another": wife to husband and husband to wife, you will be able to see it as intended as a mutual, self-less sacrificing of each to the other.

The wife's submission to the husband's self-sacrificing on her behalf is as easy as the believer's submission to Christ's self-sacrifice of their behalf. The whole message of the gospel is dying to one's self and our own fleshly ambitions and desires, for the benefit of another. This is totally contrary to the attitude I'm hearing in this thread. We are not to desire ruling over other believers; Jesus made that clear and equated it to the behavior of unbelievers and said it should not be so among us. How then, can you read rulership or authority into Paul's admonition to husbands to give themselves up for their wives?
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Mark F on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:17 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Your posts do tend to show a good deal of resistence to verse 25. But if you can see it as Paul's deliberate example of "one to another": wife to husband and husband to wife, you will be able to see it as intended as a mutual, self-less sacrificing of each to the other.

The wife's submission to the husband's self-sacrificing on her behalf is as easy as the believer's submission to Christ's self-sacrifice of their behalf. The whole message of the gospel is dying to one's self and our own fleshly ambitions and desires, for the benefit of another. This is totally contrary to the attitude I'm hearing in this thread. We are not to desire ruling over other believers; Jesus made that clear and equated it to the behavior of unbelievers and said it should not be so among us. How then, can you read rulership or authority into Paul's admonition to husbands to give themselves up for their wives?


On the contrary, the implications of verse 25 make me shudder to know that I will stand and give account for how I have handled myself in relation to my wife, a daughter of God.

We are not discussing the husbands role here, of course the direction of this thread would seem lopsided. I have no desire to be ruling over my wife, or any other believers.

Verse 22 says to wives, they are to submit to their husbands as to the Lord. What can this mean but what it says. I know it does not say that I am to be lord over her, and it does not say if you feel like it. The exact ness of it's meaning is not to be on a paralell with God, but as a pattern to her own husband only.


Christ is the Master of us, the thing is, He does not treat us as His slaves, and I believe that is a position that is not wrong to be used of us, yet He treats us so kindly. The lesson and pattern to be displayed by a husband being the head of his wife is that he in turn learns to treat his wife like she does not deserve to be treated, like how Christ treats him as he does not deserve it either.

I don't desire to beat this dead horse any longer, but I did want to clear up some things as I have obviously given you the wrong impression.
Mark

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Matthew 7:13-14;
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:41 am

Mark F wrote:On the contrary, the implications of verse 25 make me shudder to know that I will stand and give account for how I have handled myself in relation to my wife, a daughter of God.


I see what you meant, now, Mark. Thanks for clarifying that. I agree that all God's people are accountable for their actions.

We are not discussing the husbands role here, of course the direction of this thread would seem lopsided.


Hard to discuss the marital relationship without including both parties. While there seems to be no confusion as to the wife's relationship to her husband, there seems to be a great deal of confusion as to the husband's relationship to his wife.

I have no desire to be ruling over my wife, or any other believers.


Praise the Lord! Since no believers are told to do so.

Christ is the Master of us, the thing is, He does not treat us as His slaves, and I believe that is a position that is not wrong to be used of us, yet He treats us so kindly.


Indeed He does treat us kindly. Greater love has no man than he who lays down his life for his friends.

The lesson and pattern to be displayed by a husband being the head of his wife is that he in turn learns to treat his wife like she does not deserve to be treated, like how Christ treats him as he does not deserve it either.


Well....that's not quite the context of the passage. It's not whether or not one deserves to be treated kindly; but rather no one should be mistreated.

I don't desire to beat this dead horse any longer, but I did want to clear up some things as I have obviously given you the wrong impression.


Regretfully, I'm sorry to say that I still am left with the impression that the husband has some kind of authority or privileged position over his wife. I think with further discussion and scriptural support, we might be able to clear this perception up (if it's in fact your perception), but if you leave the discussion, I am left with my impression gathered from previous posts.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:39 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:I don't see Paul suggesting order in Ephesians relative to marriage. I do know this "order" is a popular term among those who see a heirarchy of authority assigned to a husband over his wife.


Just to be clear, as I've mentioned before, I do not see husbands given authority over their wives. I see them told that they are the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church (a statement of circumstance), and I see wives told to submit to their husbands, as unto the Lord, this being in the imperative (voice of command).

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Mark F on Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:47 am

mark s wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:I don't see Paul suggesting order in Ephesians relative to marriage. I do know this "order" is a popular term among those who see a heirarchy of authority assigned to a husband over his wife.


Just to be clear, as I've mentioned before, I do not see husbands given authority over their wives. I see them told that they are the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church (a statement of circumstance), and I see wives told to submit to their husbands, as unto the Lord, this being in the imperative (voice of command).

Love in Christ,
Mark


Might I add to this, I do agree, yes.

This is not to be understood as a license to act in a dominating way, but more so a position with monumental responsability and consequence!!

All things are given unto Christ, power and authority, yet how does He handle it?
Mark

All Scripture from NKJV

The Narrow Way
Matthew 7:13-14;
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:54 am

mark s wrote:Just to be clear, as I've mentioned before, I do not see husbands given authority over their wives.


:praise:

Agreement on this finally!

Now can we agree that the relationship is mutual and reciprocal? She is subject and he gives himself up for her, nourishes and cherishes her as Christ did for the church?
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:53 pm

Mark F wrote:This is not to be understood as a license to act in a dominating way, but more so a position with monumental responsibility and consequence!!

All things are given unto Christ, power and authority, yet how does He handle it?


Hi Mark,

I think this is very insightful. Jesus never forces our obedience, yet that does not remove our duty to obey Him.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:01 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:
mark s wrote:Just to be clear, as I've mentioned before, I do not see husbands given authority over their wives.


:praise:

Agreement on this finally!


Hi Abiding,

I don't think we've ever disagreed on this point.

Now can we agree that the relationship is mutual and reciprocal? She is subject and he gives himself up for her, nourishes and cherishes her as Christ did for the church?


Even as you write this, using the Scriptural terminology, which I certainly appreciate, you are describing one thing that she does, and another thing that he does. And that is exactly what the Bible says.

Eph 5:22-28
(22) Wives, subject yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord,
(23) because a husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is Head of the assembly, and He is the Savior of the body.
(24) But even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also the wives to their own husbands in everything.
(25) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
(26) that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
(27) that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.
(28) So, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies, (he loving his wife loves himself),

Wives, subject yourselves to your husbands, husbands, love your wives.

The example for the wife is the church's submission to Christ. The example for the husband is Christ's love for the church. I think that the proper perspective is that each of us, that is, those of us who are husbands or wives, focus on doing the part that Scripture instructs us to do.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:54 am

mark s wrote:I think that the proper perspective is that each of us, that is, those of us who are husbands or wives, focus on doing the part that Scripture instructs us to do.


A matter of semantics, me thinks. Both husbands and wives are giving of themselves one to another.

Again....

In the early church everything was done allelon ("one another").

They were members of one another (Rom 12:5; Eph 4:25),
who were to build up one another (1Thess 5:11; Rom 14:19),
care for one another (1Cor 12:25),
love one another (1Thess 3:12; 4:9; Rom 13:8; 1John 4:7, 11, 12),
bear with one another in love (Eph 4:2),
bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2),
be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving one another (Eph 4:32),
submit to one another (Eph 5:21),
love one another (1 Thess 4:9)
comfort one another (1 Thess: 4:18)
stimulate one another to good deeds (Heb 10:24)
consider one another better than themselves (Phil 2:3),
be devoted to one another in love(Rom 12:10),
and live in harmony with one another (Rom12:16).
none to think more highly of himself than he ought (Rom 12:3)

I don't see one being exempt from any of these and these verses were written to the "church" which is certainly inclusive of husbands and wives. There is no indication in the Word that virtue is gender specific.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:50 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:A matter of semantics, me thinks. Both husbands and wives are giving of themselves one to another.


Hi Abiding,

I'm more thinking in terms of following in a very simply manner what appears to me to be plainly stated.

Eph 5:22-28

This part is an instruction to the wife:
(22) Wives, subject yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord,

This give an explanatory statement, with an example:
(23) because a husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is Head of the assembly, and He is the Savior of the body.
(24) But even as the assembly is subject to Christ, so also the wives to their own husbands in everything.

This part is an instruction to the husband:
(25) Husbands, love your wives,

Again, an explanatory statement with example:
even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
(26) that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
(27) that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.
(28) So, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies, (he loving his wife loves himself),

So I, as a husband, do what I'm told to do here. And wives, as wives, do what they are told to do here. I think that is what God is looking for from us in giving us this passage.

Certainly, we do the other things that Scripture tells us, but that does not mean that we do not do these.

That we are told to love one another, but then husbands are told to love their wives compounds this in my view.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Apr 07, 2010 8:09 am

mark s wrote:So I, as a husband, do what I'm told to do here. And wives, as wives, do what they are told to do here. I think that is what God is looking for from us in giving us this passage.


Agreed. Both are giving one to another. Both are members of the church and are to exemplify the same virtues as are all members. The fact that Paul is speaking at this time to those two categories of believers, does not isolate them from the body, exempt them from the practice of mutual respect and treatment, nor does it give or take privileges away from either that are common to all. We are all members of one body and Paul is not maintaining nor endorsing class, race, or gender distinctions in our treatment of each other. Just the opposite. He is admonishing like-treatment.

Certainly, we do the other things that Scripture tells us, but that does not mean that we do not do these.


Agreed. Do you find anything in this passage to husbands and wives that is not common to all believers in the body? They may be expressed specifically to them because of the daily interaction with one another that may not occur in other relationships; i.e. one member to an elder, teacher, or friend on a more sporadic basis. The same is true of other relationships (masters/slaves and parents/children) where they are in close proximity on a daily basis.

That we are told to love one another, but then husbands are told to love their wives compounds this in my view.


All love between believers should be based on the example of Christ's love toward us. Again, Paul's purpose in this passage is not to erect distinctions among believers but to erase and level them the divisions just as he did between Jews and Gentiles, circumcised and uncircumcised, slaves, and free, male and female.

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall......

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus

1Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing......

We know there was great disparity between classes and genders and both Jesus and Paul radically, effectively erase those barriers that prevented mutual respect and fair treatment among believers. This definitely was the condition that faced Jesus and Paul and to read privilege and/or entitlement among any one group to the exclusion of another is to misunderstand the passage and it's intent. It's intent is just the opposite. That's why Paul uses the word "head" rather than one that denotes authority and compares it to the sacrifical nature of Christ's relationship to the church rather than to His authority. Because he is endeavoring to protect the weaker and more vulnerable from those in a position of abusing their strength. Hence, he speaks first to those most vulnerable and then speaks to the stronger to curtail mistreatment by patterning their behavior after Christ. Thus, Paul persuades masters (the stronger) to treat them as they want to be treated and not threaten the vulnerable slave who is in his care. He protects the vulnerable child from being treated harshly by telling fathers (stronger) not to provoke or exasperate them. He enjoins husbands (stronger) to give themselves up for their wives (weaker) as Christ did for the church.

Again, to read privilege, power, or authority as an endorsement in this passage is to totally misunderstand Paul's intent.

Thus, the wives, slaves, and children being the most vulnerable are to be treated as Christ treats the church in His sacrificially giving of Himself for their welfare and nourishment.

In reality, this was not a "new" admonishment but one critical to fair, just, and loving treatment of one another. It's no accident that out of God's 10 commandments thousands of years ago, 7 dealt with one's treatment of other believers. From the beginning of time, scripture records the efforts and evils mankind to have power over others. Scripture is replete with God's progressive efforts to 1) place boundaries on abuse of power 2) curtail attitudes and customs that lead to the oppression of the weak and vulnerable, and 3) teach, instead, fair, just, mutual respect and treatment of their brothers and sisters.

Consistent interpretation of passages mentioning husbands and wives demands they be in harmony with the whole where position, authority, and power remain in the realm and person of Christ and not man.
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Re: Romans 5

Postby mark s on Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:25 am

Abiding in His Word wrote: Again, Paul's purpose in this passage is not to erect distinctions among believers but to erase and level them


I'm not sure I agree with the wording of "erecting distinctions", but I do see where Paul gives a certain instruction to wives that he does not give to husbands, and a certain instruction to husbands that he does not give to wives.

Of course, there remains a distinction between Christ and the church, as much as God has done to unify us with our Saviour, even so, we submit to Him, and He does not submit to us.

Ok, I know I'm repeating myself, so I'm not sure how much more I can add to this discussion.

Love in Christ,
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
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Re: Romans 5

Postby ampersand on Fri Apr 09, 2010 11:16 am

oh boy, I am way behind...

Abiding, I have a few questions that I've been meaning to ask, and I think the answers to them will help me understand your position better. If you have already addressed them, please forgive me and direct me to the appropriate post...

  1. Is it your position that the commands in 5:22-24 and 5:25-30 are so exactly alike as to be interchangeable? That is, are these specific aspects of Christ's relationship to the Church and the Church's relationship to Christ exactly alike? Are the husband and wife being told to do the exact same thing and emulate the exact same aspects of the Church-Christ relationship?

  2. Is there anything that sets apart the husband-wife union from the union we all have as members of the Church? Is the only distinction between the husband-wife relationship and the member-member relationship that of sexual reproduction in the husband-wife relationship? Or, in your understanding, does Scripture (in, say, Ephesians 5.. or anywhere else) provide distinct prescriptions for the husband-wife relationship that are different (in whatever manner) from the member-member relationship?
{I'm just trying to understand your position beyond your definition of the word "head." I know you have repeated numerous times that "virtue is not gender-specific." I may have missed something, but I don't think anyone has actually made gender-specific distinctions for virtues. I can't speak for others, but I am understanding some directives in Scripture to be relationship-specific. And because in the Biblical marriage union the husband will always be male and the wife will always be female, some directives inherently become gender-specific. However, I agree that virtue is not gender-specific. Did I make sense there?...}


Thank you, Abiding!


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Re: Romans 5

Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:11 pm

Welcome back, ampersand! I hope my post will answer your questions; if not, please feel free ask again.


1. Is it your position that the commands in 5:22-24 and 5:25-30 are so exactly alike as to be interchangeable? That is, are these specific aspects of Christ's relationship to the Church and the Church's relationship to Christ exactly alike? Are the husband and wife being told to do the exact same thing and emulate the exact same aspects of the Church-Christ relationship?


First, I do not see them as "commands" per se. Rather I see them as Paul's effort (admonishments?) to change an existing system of harsh domination between members of various groups where authority had been usurped. In other words, unrighteous control was prevalent among many as opposed to treatment as one wanted to be treated.

It may be easier for you to see this if I show it first in the master/slave relationship. We know slavery was rampant but from the beginning, this was never God's plan nor did He establish a system of domination of one over the other among His people. We see, throughout scripture God's efforts to protect the well-being of slaves and educate slaveholders how to treat them fairly. With the many scriptures in the OT that support fair, just treatment of slaves, we look at Paul's admonishments to both slaves (weak and vulnerable) and masters (strongers and more powerful)

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ...Eph 6:5

And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening...Eph 6:9

Paul is not supporting nor endorsing the continuation of the practice; on the contrary, he is appealing to their sense of fair treatment one to another to ensure a peaceable relationship in an existing situation and time that permitted privileges to one to the exclusion of the other.

We know he continued in this effort to eradicate the existing system and implement one that is patterned after mutual respect when he encouraged Philemon to change his attitude toward his slave to one of a brother in Christ. He further tells slaves that if they became a believer while being a slave, to remain in that position (because of the late hour) but if they could become free, to rather do that.

We see his view of slavery in other places which you can research yourself that the system that allowed for one having power over another was never God's plan and you will see progressive efforts throughout the Word and throughout history to eliminate and/or rescue those who have been oppressed by such a system.

Next we can briefly look at Paul's admonishment to children and parents. Again, we know from scripture (and history) the harsh manner parents have treated their children; i.e. "Passing through the fire" and offering them to false idols, selling them as slaves. We see the relationship between Saul & Jonathan, Absalom's rebellion against his father David, and the stoning of a rebellious son whose parents brought him to the elders of the city to complain that he was a drunkard and a glutton. Compare the treatment of the father to his son in the parable of the prodigal son.

So Paul entreats children (weaker and vulnerable) to be obedient to their parents (stronger and powerful) so it will be well with them in their care and then admonishes the father not to be harsh nor to exasperate the children but to instruct them in the way of the Lord.

Children,obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Eph 6:4

Again, Paul does not endorse nor encourage an authoritarian, harsh relationship between parents and their children, but appeals to peaceable respect between them.

And finally, we turn to Paul's efforts to raise the status of wives and curtail the practices of harsh treatment toward them in an era that previously permitted polygamy, concubinage,
marriage by purchase or by capture in war, slave-marriage, and putting away wives for any cause. He first speaks to the wife as the weaker, more vulnerable vessel:

.....and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself the Savior of the body. Eph 5:23

Paul is not establishing nor maintaining a system or relationship that was historically abused by husbands. He is appealing to the wife to see the husband in terms of Christ's saving the church. He's encouraging a new perspective and attitude toward the one who will love her and sacrifice himself for her as Christ did.

But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives to their husbands in everything Eph 5:24

Paul is comparing the church being in the care and nourishment of Christ to the wife's being the recipient of the care and nourishment of her husband. We know this by the words of admonishment to husbands to care for (nourish) and cherish her as Christ does to the church.

And then to the stronger, more powerful husband:

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her...
Eph 5:25

He makes no mention of authority, control, or power in this relationship. Only "agape" love which gives itself up for another. This is radically different than the pattern of husbands to their wives which de-valued her, divorced her for any reason, and took multiple wives in total disregard for the original purpose of marriage.

In keeping with Paul's efforts to change the erroneous concept of the husband's authority, we find him specifically saying that the wife has equal authority in the home and the same as the husband in the sexual relationship. Surely we cannot interpret his words as commands that encourage anything other than mutual, reciprocal, loving, respectful treatment.


2. Is there anything that sets apart the husband-wife union from the union we all have as members of the Church? Is the only distinction between the husband-wife relationship and the member-member relationship that of sexual reproduction in the husband-wife relationship? Or, in your understanding, does Scripture (in, say, Ephesians 5.. or anywhere else) provide distinct prescriptions for the husband-wife relationship that are different (in whatever manner) from the member-member relationship?


I have answered this above by saying that just by virtue of the proximity to one another on a day-to-day basis, it appears that the importance of these virtues is magnified.

{I'm just trying to understand your position beyond your definition of the word "head." I know you have repeated numerous times that "virtue is not gender-specific." I may have missed something, but I don't think anyone has actually made gender-specific distinctions for virtues. I can't speak for others, but I am understanding some directives in Scripture to be relationship-specific. And because in the Biblical marriage union the husband will always be male and the wife will always be female, some directives inherently become gender-specific. However, I agree that virtue is not gender-specific. Did I make sense there?...}


There are only two genders in the body of Christ and none speak specifically to one that is not applicable, as far as I can see, to the other. Paul mentions 3 relationships in Ephesians that again, need specific reminders due to the nature of their close day-to-day living arrangements as well as the possibility of abuse by the stronger or more powerful.

The "mystery" of Christ's relationship to the church is Christ's giving Himself, humbling Himself, emptying Himself, and His servanthood as exemplary of His willingly subjecting Himself on behalf of the Church. In other words, He subjects Himself not to her, but for her sake.
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