The First Seal: Apparently Broken

(heavily moderated)

The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:57 am

The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Here I will present some of the reasons why I believe that the first seal is broken.(Rev 6:1)
First let's understand that the color white designates “righteous” everywhere it is used in the book of Revelation. Notice:

White (Greek: leukos~) is used consistently in Revelation to designate “righteous” (1:14, 2:17, 3:4, 3:5, 3:18, 4:4, 6:2, 6:11, 7:9, 7:13, 14:14, 19:11, 19:14, 20:11). Thus the great white throne (20:11) is the place of righteous judgment. The coming Lord and His angelic armies are mounted on white horses because “in righteousness He judges and wages war” (19:11, 14). Following the reaping activities of the Son of Man on the white cloud (14:14), those reaped sing “righteous and true are your ways” (15:3). The white clothing of the saints and elders designates righteous condition (3:4, 3:5, 3:18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 7:13 cf. 19:8).

Next observe that a horse in the Bible is primarily seen as the animal used for warfare as it transports the warrior with or without the chariot. Symbolically then, a white horse would portray an aggressive (warring) means of moving forward and transporting for a righteous objective.

Next, we need to observe that the rider on this horse is armed with a bow and crowned with a crown of a king. There are important differences between this rider on a white horse and the returning King Jesus of Chapter 19. The rider here is crowned with one crown, as opposed to the rider, the Lord (19:12), crowned with many royal crowns. The rider here is given his crown, the Lord’s crowns are seen as already in his possession. The rider in Chapter 6 is armed with a bow, whereas the Lord, chapter 19, is not armed with the weapons of this world, but is armed instead with the Word of God (19:15). The rider in Chapter 6 goes out, "conquering so that he might conquer” (literal Greek), the rider on the white horse in Chapter 19 defeats the enemy and rules.

We conclude then that the rider on the white horse in Chapter 6 is not the same as the writer on the white horse in Chapter 19.

In keeping with the language of the passage in Chapter 6, we should see the rider on the white horse here as a ruling authority, militarily strong, using his strength to accomplish a righteous objective.

Although some commentators on this passage have suggested that the rider of the white horse here is the Antichrist; such a suggestion fails because the color of the horse is white. The Lord, not the rider, is the one who chose to tell John that the horse is white. If He wanted to communicate the idea of an Antichrist. he would have portrayed the rider as we see portrayed in 13:11, and riding a black or red horse; certainly not white.

We see today, what are apparently the results of the breaking of the first seal.
A world leader possessing great military strength, representing the country which is the home base of Christian missions, used his crown to send his army (bow) to the modern remnant of ancient Babylon (Iraq). His goal, ostensibly, was to capture weapons of mass destruction. He failed. We await the second seal.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:59 am

lambslave wrote:Although some commentators on this passage have suggested that the rider of the white horse here is the Antichrist; such a suggestion fails because the color of the horse is white. The Lord, not the rider, is the one who chose to tell John that the horse is white. If He wanted to communicate the idea of an Antichrist. he would have portrayed the rider as we see portrayed in 13:11, and riding a black or red horse; certainly not white.


Hi lambslave,

I can agree that the first seal could be broken, but my studies have led me to believe the rider of the white horse ushers in the great deception.

Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

1) the only other white horse in the book of Revelation is the one Jesus rides in Rev. 19. This rider ushers in deception. He is the imitatation of the truth.
2) the bow may very well represent a tongue of deceit
3) crowns most always are worn by man with the exception of Matt. 27 when a crown of thorns was made to ridicule Jesus as royalty. This rider's crown represents victory in the area of deception in the church.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True

1) this white horse is ridden by the Jesus who is faithful and true (as opposed to deception)
2) this rider (Jesus) has a sharp sword (as opposed to a bow) coming from His mouth which is the Word of God (truth - in contrast to the deception of the other white horse rider
3) this rider wears "diadems" (as opposed to a crown worn by man)

The list of scriptures for my beliefs can be viewed in this thread if you are interested:

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=29886
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby ilovejesus2 on Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:06 pm

lambslave

i find your ideas interesting - possibly America...then

what then - are you thinking regarding the 2nd seal?
ilovejesus2
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:29 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby YoungLion on Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:28 pm

I open to the idea that a seal has been broken, but I'm also aware that there are those who say... 'look, the candlesticks are in Heaven and all the elders are assembled complete with their crowns BEFORE any seals are broken.' Should we be interpreting current events in terms of a seal being broken? I'm not arguing. I'm just curious what y'all think.
YoungLion
 
Posts: 1743
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:57 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby aaron on Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:35 pm

And are we talking about the current president's Iraq war, or his father's very similar Iraq war back in the early 90's?
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
-1 Timothy 6:12
aaron
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Somewhere north of here

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Pretzelogical on Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:19 pm

Stephen (LS),
This is exactly what I was planning to study more deeply at this time, so I am thrilled for this post. In your entire book, this is the only thing for which I could not see enough biblical evidence for my doubting mind. Your insight throughout the book is incredibly keen, yet I struggle with trying to leave what I have been taught until it is contradicted by the scriptures.
Thanks Abiding for posting your page; I see you and I are on the same page.

Stephen, are you saying the rider of the white horse is a person or a nation or the saints of all the earth?
I am looking at the category of the riders of the other three horses in order to determine rider of horse #1.


Horse #2 Has the power to take peace from earth so slaying could be done with the sword given to "him". I had never thought of this being power from one man before. However, if that is the case for horse #1's rider, it would have to be for number two, as well. Or no?
Horse #3 is "like a voice", holding scales, describing economics. Again, sounds more like a movement, force, deception, result, etc. but not one person, or even one nation's responsibility for that result. Or perhaps?
Horse #4 Here we have the name of Death for the rider spelled out. So it is not a person. Is it a nation? Not where I can see in Scritpure. Please help me see it if you see it there. So none of the others can be either, is my train of thought here. He is given authority to kill with sword, famine, pestilence and beasts. Satan would have the power to do this. Or else we are into scaler technology theory again with Russia doing these things?

IF the white horse is righteousness, and the rider is the saints, they are apostate without their sword (word of God) and are just looking the part waving a useless weapon against deception. That fits with apostasy would come first.
Since "over-comers" is used in scripture to refer to the saints. Is that term appropriate for "conquering"? Abiding's thread confirmed my thoughts that it does. So the saints are out to conquor but they have no ammo.

Stephen, you have done so much already, that having you explain this one part that I am stuck on is such a treat!
Thanks again for another great thread!
Lisa
Pretzelogical
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby aaron on Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:31 pm

We see today, what are apparently the results of the breaking of the first seal.
A world leader possessing great military strength, representing the country which is the home base of Christian missions, used his crown to send his army (bow) to the modern remnant of ancient Babylon (Iraq). His goal, ostensibly, was to capture weapons of mass destruction. He failed. We await the second seal.


Also, if you are referring to the current Pres. Bush, he invaded Iraq March 20, 2003 with a multi-national force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war
U.S. and Iraqi officials are debating the timeline and magnitude of an American withdrawal, with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki pushing for a complete withdrawal by 2011.


If I'm following you correctly ... the first seal broke March 20,2003 and all ends seven years later in 2011?
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
-1 Timothy 6:12
aaron
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Somewhere north of here

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Douggg on Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:46 pm

Hi Stephen, :mrgreen:
Although some commentators on this passage have suggested that the rider of the white horse here is the Antichrist; such a suggestion fails because the color of the horse is white. The Lord, not the rider, is the one who chose to tell John that the horse is white. If He wanted to communicate the idea of an Antichrist. he would have portrayed the rider as we see portrayed in 13:11, and riding a black or red horse; certainly not white.

We see today, what are apparently the results of the breaking of the first seal.
A world leader possessing great military strength, representing the country which is the home base of Christian missions, used his crown to send his army (bow) to the modern remnant of ancient Babylon (Iraq). His goal, ostensibly, was to capture weapons of mass destruction. He failed. We await the second seal.


The rationale that the rider on the white horse is the Antichrist is because (1) the horse is white, the same as Jesus's horse in Revelation 19, the Antichrist will be a "false messiah" (2) the rider on the Revelation 6 white horse is a warrior king which the Jews (Judaism) are expecting of their messiah (3) when the Antichrist first comes to power he will appear to be a hero to the world and the messiah to the Jews (4) in Daniel 11 he has success against the strongest fortresses, to those who oppose him.

George Bush is not the rider on the white horse. George is from Texas and may ride horses... but that doesn't count in this case. :bag: George Bush may have not retrieved WOD's, but ask Saddam Hussein if he failed.

The rider on the white horse does not make his appearance officially until he comfirms the covenant with many in
Daniel 9:27.

Even though I am certain that the first seal has not been opened - the current Banking crisis could create an environment of which the Antichrist could come on the scene and solve the world's problems - if first we have Gog/Magog - unlikely till 2009 IMO, although events can develop at lightning speed... just like the meltdown of those commerical banks.

No one knows the exact scenario... here are some current factors that I see that supports my theory that the Antichrist will confirm the covenant before May 14, 2011.

1. A worldwide banking crisis has developed. Hopefully congress will be successful in staving off a Great Depression.
2. A new prime minister is due for Israel soon.
3. A new American President soon.
4. The Russians have headquartered their fleet in Syria, Gog/Magog.
5. The Russian military is rejuvinated - Georgia.
6. Oil prices could skyrocket again from last spring and summer.
7. Iran's nuclear program - something is going to happen, Gog/Magog,
8. The EU is solidfying it's centralized government and as long term presidency.
9. No single person presently is on the world scene who can solve all of the developing problems.

So, are the nations in a roaring sea? Out of which will emerge the Antichrist? Well, yes, because the "perfect storm" is developing - sometime before May 14, 2011. Take a look at how fast that the banking crisis came to a head last week. Gog/Magog could materialize with the same quickness. May not have to wait until 2009.

Sincerely,

Doug L.
User avatar
Douggg
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:27 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:34 pm

White horses in the Bible

I could find only two references to a white horse in scripture. This one in Rev. 6 and the other in Rev. 19. The rider of that white horse is Jesus Christ.

Bows in the Bible
- (Easton's Bible Dictionary)

The bow is a symbol of victory (Psa_7:12). It denotes also falsehood, deceit (Psa_64:3, Psa_64:4; Hos_7:16; Jer_9:3). (Easton's Bible Dictionary}

The bow can be figurative as in these scriptures: Gen_49:24; Job_16:13; Job_29:20; Psa_78:57; Lam_3:12; Hos_1:5; Hab_3:9; Rev_6:2 (Nave's Topical Bible)

The bow is illustrative: (R.A. Torrey's Topical Textbook)

Of strength and power
Job_29:20

Of the tongue of the wicked
Psa_11:2; Jer_9:3

(When deceitful,) of the hypocrite
Psa_78:57; Hos_7:16

The root word for bow in Strong's is:

H6983

qush (881c); a prim. root; to lay bait or lure: - ensnare



Crowns in the Bible (Nave's Topical Studies)

Crowns are always relegated to man.

* Prescribed for priests
Exodus 29:6; 39:30; Leviticus 8:9

* Worn by kings
2 Samuel 1:10; 12:30; 2 Kings 11:12; Esther 6:8; Solomon 3:11; Revelation 6:2

* By queens
Esther 1:11; 2:17; 8:15

* Made of gold
Psalms 21:3; Zechariah 6:11

* Of victory
2 Timothy 2:5

* An ornament
Ezekiel 23:42; 16:12

* Set with gems
2 Samuel 12:30; 1 Chronicles 20:2; Zechariah 9:16; Isaiah 62:3

* Of thorns
Matthew 27:29; Mark 15:17; John 19:5

* Figurative
Isaiah 28:5; 1 Corinthians 9:25; 2 Timothy 4:8; James 1:12; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 2:10; 3:11

* Symbolic
Revelation 4:4,10; 6:2; 9:7; 12:1,3; 13:1; 14:14; 19:12

---------------------------------

Based on these three descriptions and their useage in scripture, I think this rider is the one who ushers in the apostasy Paul says must come first.

2Th 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first......

Contrast the two white horse riders:

Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

1) the only other white horse is the one Jesus rides in Rev. 19. This rider ushers in deception
2) the bow may very well represent a tongue of deceit
3) crowns most always are worn by man with the exception of Matt. 27 when a crown of thorns was made to ridicule Jesus as royalty. This rider's crown represents victory in the area of deception in the church

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True

1) this white horse is ridden by the Jesus who is faithful and true (as opposed to deception)
2) this rider (Jesus) has a sharp sword (as opposed to a bow) coming from His mouth which is the Word of God (truth - in contrast to the deception of the other white horse rider
3) this rider wears "diadems" (as opposed to a crown worn by man)
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby 1whowaits on Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:03 pm

There are 2 other places in scripture that describe white horses that do appear to be pertinent to the 1st seal of Rev- 'there before me was a man riding a red horse..behind him were red, brown and white horses....What are these my lord?...They are the ones the Lord has sent to go throughout the earth.' Zech 1:8.

'I looked up again- and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains- mountains of bronze! The first chariot had red horses, the second black, the third white and the fourth dappled- all of them powerful. I asked the angel who was speaking to me, 'What are these my lord?' The angel answered me, 'These are the four spirits of heaven...they were straining to go throughout the earth...' Zech 6:1

Although there are some minimal differences basically Rev 6 and Zech 1 and 6 are describing horses of differing colors, 4 or more in number, who appear to cause worldwide effects, they 'go throughout the earth'.

Zech 6 calls these horses 4 'spirits', which would appear to be consistent with what is described in Rev 6 of the 4 horsemen. The 2nd seal appears to be the 'spirit' of causing war, not a person, he has power 'to take peace from the earth and make men slay each other'. The 3rd seal appears to be a 'spirit' of causing economic collapse or inequity, the 4th a 'spirit' of causing death and destruction.

It is then more likely, as the rest of the seals do not appear to be an individual, the 1st seal is not an individual but the 'spirit' of causing conquest- 'he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest', which is prevalent in the world today (Muslims, Russia)

The 5th seal also pictures not an individual but a 'spirit' of persecution against the saints that will increase in ferocity.

From the intial description of Jesus breaking the seals on the scroll, it would appear that the 4 horsemen are those 'spirits' that have been restrained by God, and when the restraints come off the true nature is revealed.
1whowaits
 
Posts: 3527
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:11 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Pretzelogical on Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:16 pm

DItto the above! (That is what I was trying to say.)

Dougg - I missed why May 14, 2011? This is from another thread that looks at the Year of Jubilees, Feast days, eclipses, and the book of Esther as a picture of when the AC is revealed:
Middle of Purim 2012 plus 1290 days = 9/23/2015 Day of Atonement, final eclpise in the tetrad of eclipes. That is also the 49th week of years since 1967 capture/give away of Temple Mount. And, indeed, the date the Year of Jubilee is announced.
Five days after the 9/23/2015 Day of Atonement is a blood moon lunar eclipse on the Feast of Tabernacles. Possible timeline:
1260 + 30 + 1260
With Purim at the start of the thirty day interval between the 1260 days, that adds up to the 1290.
Also to add the first 1260 + 30 = 1290 days; perhaps time to purify the temple? Then hide Jews for the remaining 1260 days?

Back to the rider of the white horse...
Pretzelogical
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:24 pm

I wiil try answwer all the posts, but with these hands it will take a while. 1. The rider on the white horse (the rider with his horse) go out conquering (from nikao--could be John was saying overcoming) so that he might conqurer. There does not appear to be any conflict between the color of the horse and the rider. Such is amply demonstrated with the fourth horse, "the green horse," and his rider, death. (if any of you have a web cam, or just audio, I'm agreeable to meeting with you to discuss this. The biologically green horse [please note the correct color of the horse--it is crucial] is a symbol of life. But the rider is death. We are supposed to notice the contrast between the horse and rider. The horse is not a sickly palor or pale--it is living green--chloros. Same word used to describe grass and trees later in the book. And Death, unlike the other riders who are "hupo" their horses, is "hupano" his horse; this denotes control. There is not such a picture with the white horse and rider. In order for the white-horse rider to portray antichrist as you suggest, the rider would have to be in conflict with the horse (as anichrist is with righteousness). The riders wih the Lord 19:14 are also seen on white horses. There is definite failure and sin of the rider on the white horse to do what he intends to do. It is obviously his use of weapons of this world to accomplish the righteousness portrayed in this book. He should have used the word of God, and he would have been on track like his Lord in 19. Yes, this IS AN INDICATION OF THIS RIDER'S DEGREE OF APOSTASY. Pergamum (meaning citadel or fortress) was guilty of supporting such an approach. This is the importance of the remarks about nicoliatans. Those who support force as a means of carrying out the marching orders of the church live in and worship in Pergamum.

Yes, the activities of the first horse, result in the rider on the red horse riding--net effect thte Abomination of Desolation and great tribulation. The first 3 1/2 years are history in the public ministry of the Lord, from baptism to death. The rider on the red horse is the atichrist who sets about to destroy christians seal 2 and cf:seal 5. I'm going to go back and make a a list and work offline. My Yahoo address can be obtained in private mail.End-time hypothess should not interpret the text.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:13 pm

Abiding In His Word--
You wrote:
Hi lambslave,

I can agree that the first seal could be broken, but my studies have led me to believe the rider of the white horse ushers in the great deception.

LS: I agree, he does. Because the rider on the red horse rides in reaction to the activities of the white-horse rider. Keep your eyes on Russia.

Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

1) the only other white horse in the book of Revelation is the one Jesus rides in Rev. 19. This rider ushers in deception. He is the imitatation of the truth.

LS Those with the Lord in 19:14 are also on white horses. White cannot mean "righteous" in one place in Rev and unrighteous or "deceit" in another. Such a hermaneutic has resulted in the chaos we have today in this book. And some very reputable men whom I know and respect insist this is the antichrist.

2) the bow may very well represent a tongue of deceit

LS-- How in this context? Your answer cannot be that some hypothesis requires it.

3) crowns most always are worn by man with the exception of Matt. 27 when a crown of thorns was made to ridicule Jesus as royalty. This rider's crown represents victory in the area of deception in the church.

LS: Crowwns are worn by the 24 elders (angels) in Rev 4:10; 5:10. These Elders distinguish themselves from the redeemed. (5:9-10; 7:13-17) addrerssed as "my lord" by John, 7:13 John has not started to receive information from a man elder. This is an angel talking to and about people--the redeemed.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True

1) this white horse is ridden by the Jesus who is faithful and true (as opposed to deception)

LS: THe decepion is being suppied by your a dopted hypothesis.

2) this rider (Jesus) has a sharp sword (as opposed to a bow) coming from His mouth which is the Word of God (truth - in contrast to the deception of the other white horse rider
ANSWERED
3) this rider wears "diadems" (as opposed to a crown worn by man)

LS: In both cases the riders wear diadems.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:19 pm

iloveJesus2--
You wrote, lambslave

i find your ideas interesting - possibly America...then

what then - are you thinking regarding the 2nd seal?ilovejesus2

Russia wil attack us next. The ridrer on the red hoorse is the antichrist (NOT A FALSE/PRETEND CHRIST-- AN anti-CHRIST

Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:29 am
Private message
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:52 pm

Stephen (LS),
This is exactly what I was planning to study more deeply at this time, so I am thrilled for this post. In your entire book, this is the only thing for which I could not see enough biblical evidence for my doubting mind. Your insight throughout the book is incredibly keen, yet I struggle with trying to leave what I have been taught until it is contradicted by the scriptures.
Thanks Abiding for posting your page; I see you and I are on the same page.

Stephen, are you saying the rider of the white horse is a person or a nation or the saints of all the earth?
I am looking at the category of the riders of the other three horses in order to determine rider of horse #1.

ls: YES

Horse #2 Has the power to take peace from earth so slaying could be done with the sword given to "him". I had never thought of this being power from one man before. However, if that is the case for horse #1's rider, it would have to be for number two, as well. Or no?

LS: It is the case

Horse #3 is "like a voice", holding scales, describing economics. Again, sounds more like a movement, force, deception, result, etc. but not one person, or even one nation's responsibility for that result. Or perhaps?

LS The voice from the center of the four living ones HAS to be the voice of the Lamb! 5:, any version but NASB. The voice says, My parphrase: we have a bad economy here, but THERE IS TO BE NO SHORTAGE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (OIL) AND REDEMPTION (WINE) SYMBOL OF THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

Horse #4 Here we have the name of Death for the rider spelled out. So it is not a person. Is it a nation? Not where I can see in Scritpure. Please help me see it if you see it there. So none of the others can be either, is my train of thought here. He is given authority to kill with sword, famine, pestilence and beasts. Satan would have the power to do this. Or else we are into scaler technology theory again with Russia doing these things?

LS: SEE ABOVE---THE HORSE IS GREEN, THE RIDER IS DEATH. We are supposted to see that Death controls life. There is no rule that each rider must be either a nation or a person, since here and in three it is neither. The language and context determine that. George Eldon Ladd, whom I knew, pointed to mixed methaphors in the book and urged readers to stay open to these sort of things. Dr. Ladd was Chairman of the dept of New Testament at Fuller Seminary.

IF the white horse is righteousness, and the rider is the saints, they are apostate without their sword (word of God) and are just looking the part waving a useless weapon against deception. That fits with apostasy would come first.
Since "over-comers" is used in scripture to refer to the saints. Is that term appropriate for "conquering"? Abiding's
thread confirmed my thoughts that it does. So the saints are out to conquor but they have no ammo.
LS They have adopted the WRONG ammo.
Stephen, you have done so much already, that having you explain this one part that I am stuck on is such a treat!
Thanks again for another great thread!
Lisa
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Douggg on Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:52 pm

Pretzelogical wrote:Dougg - I missed why May 14, 2011?


Hi sister Pretzel, :mrgreen:

Okay, I will explain. It is real simple. I am not setting a date...but a No Later Than (NLT) timeframe.

In Matthew 24, Jesus gave the parable of the fig tree regarding the timing of of the events surrounding His return. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The Jews are compared to being figs in the ot, and in the nt when the disciples were entering Jerusalem, Jesus came upon a fig tree, but it had no figs because it was not the season, but Jesus cursed the fig tree in spite of that.

and when the disciples returned from Jerusalem, they were astonished that the fig tree had dried up. In a nutshell, what that represented was that the Jews, the fig tree, would reject him, because it was not their time... so Israel whithered up and went dormant for 2000 years.

So, when Israel became a nation again in 1948, May 14, a nation born in a single day, that was the greatest prophetic sign of the past 2000 years. 1948, May 14 was Israel putting forth leaves again, coming out of 2000 years of dormancy.

So 1948, May 14 plus the length of a generation would give a NLT timeframe that Jesus will Return by.

So how long is generation? Some people thought that 40 years was a generation. Hal Lindsey did. So he added 1948 plus 40 years = 1988. It turned out that Jesus did not return before 1988 ended... so that interpretation of a generation was wrong.

In Pslams 90, there is support that a generation is 70 years long - the three score and ten. I believe that the 70 years is the correct length of a generation in the parable of the fig tree.

Doing the math, 1948, May 14 plus 70 years = 2018, May 14, No Later Than, Jesus will return by.

So to take into account the 7 year rule of the Antichrist, we simply take away 7 years from 2018, May 14.

That gives us 2011, May 14, as a no later than deadline for the Antichrist to confirm the covenant by.

Now if we kick in some more information - that of the fall feasts - as the season of the Second Coming, the day Jesus returns to this earth... then the confirmation of the covenant should occur, likewise, 7 years earlier by the Antichrist, sometime in the fall. This assumes that the fall feast theory holds true - which I think it has good rationale. I am not so convinced concerning the blood moons theory, however.

And if Gog/Magog, those seven years that come right afterward is the time of the Antichrist, then Gog/Magog would have to occur in late summer (of whatever year) or early fall.

Okay, since it doesn't look like that Gog/Magog is going to occur this fall, then what are possibilities left before May 14, 2011 ? There are only TWO left. Those are Gog/Magog will occur in the summer/early fall of 2009, or the summer/early fall of 2010.

I am thinking 2009, that Gog/Magog will occur in 2009 summer/early fall. And the Antichrist's confirming of the covenant right afterwards in the fall of 2009.


Sincerely,

Doug L.
User avatar
Douggg
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:27 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Douggg on Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:51 am

Hi Stephen,

lambslave wrote:In order for the white-horse rider to portray antichrist as you suggest, the rider would have to be in conflict with the horse (as anichrist is with righteousness). The riders wih the Lord 19:14 are also seen on white horses.


The rider on the white horse has a crown - because he is a man, a king - the Antichrist. The other riders do not have crowns. And thus are not kings. The symbolism is simply that the Antichrist shows up as the warrior king, on the white horse, begins his reign, which deteroriates into the time of the great tribulation, which is symbolized by the other riders and theirr horses.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Sincerely,

Doug L.
User avatar
Douggg
 
Posts: 2556
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:27 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 3:41 am

aaron--
You quoted me,
"We see today, what are apparently the results of the breaking of the first seal.
A world leader possessing great military strength, representing the country which is the home base of Christian missions, used his crown to send his army (bow) to the modern remnant of ancient Babylon (Iraq). His goal, ostensibly, was to capture weapons of mass destruction. He failed. We await the second seal."

You commented,
Also, if you are referring to the current Pres. Bush, he invaded Iraq March 20, 2003 with a multi-national force.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war
U.S. and Iraqi officials are debating the timeline and magnitude of an American withdrawal, with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki pushing for a complete withdrawal by 2011.

If I'm following you correctly ... the first seal broke March 20,2003 and all ends seven years later in 2011?

LS--This is incorrect. The breaking of the first seal does not start the Great Tribulation. That starts with the Abomination of Desolation. (2nd Seal).

There is NO Seven Year Tribulation! Please notice that all references to time passage of a future tribulation in Daniel and ReVelation are always to a 3 1/2 year period of time. A seven year tribulation is part of a popularized myth of dispensationalism. Why didn't the Lord or any of the disciples write about all the things that are crammed into this myth--the rebuilding of the temple; the making of a covenant; the breaking of the covenant. When asked by the disciples for the sign of His coming and end of the age he specifically said the temple would not be standing, Matt 24:2, and specifically to look for the Abomination of Desolation and Great tribulation that would result. He knew the first 3 1/2 years of the 7th week of Daniel were to find fulfillment in the time from his baptism to His crucifixion, when He put an end to sacrifice and grain offering.

The Lord, Paul , Daniel and John never envision any endtime figure other than a war-maker. None suggest a pretend Jesus. The Lord warns of false christs (plural), but does not point to any significanat single individual, other than the Abominataion of Desolation, and he is the son of destruction, not a messiah from God.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:05 am

1whowaits--wrote
There are 2 other places in scripture that describe white horses that do appear to be pertinent to the 1st seal of Rev- 'there before me was a man riding a red horse..behind him were red, brown and white horses....What are these my lord?...They are the ones the Lord has sent to go throughout the earth.' Zech 1:8.

LS--I'm sorry. I simply do not see the pertinence, the connecton. The differences are too compelling to make a comparson.

'I looked up again- and there before me were four chariots coming out from between two mountains- mountains of bronze! The first chariot had red horses, the second black, the third white and the fourth dappled- all of them powerful. I asked the angel who was speaking to me, 'What are these my lord?' The angel answered me, 'These are the four spirits of heaven...they were straining to go throughout the earth...' Zech 6:1

Although there are some minimal differences basically Rev 6 and Zech 1 and 6 are describing horses of differing colors, 4 or more in number, who appear to cause worldwide effects, they 'go throughout the earth'.

Zech 6 calls these horses 4 'spirits', which would appear to be consistent with what is described in Rev 6 of the 4 horsemen. The 2nd seal appears to be the 'spirit' of causing war, not a person, he has power 'to take peace from the earth and make men slay each other'. The 3rd seal appears to be a 'spirit' of causing economic collapse or inequity, the 4th a 'spirit' of causing death and destruction.

LS--For a "spirit" to carry a bow, wear a crown, go out overcoming or conquering-- is not a fit. And there is no hermeneutic reason to make the comparison that i am seeing.

It is then more likely, as the rest of the seals do not appear to be an individual, the 1st seal is not an individual but the 'spirit' of causing conquest- 'he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest', which is prevalent in the world today (Muslims, Russia)

The 5th seal also pictures not an individual but a 'spirit' of persecution against the saints that will increase in ferocity.

LS--The breaking of each seal permits John and us to see something important about the day of the Lord. We do not have any reason to see spirits here.

From the intial description of Jesus breaking the seals on the scroll, it would appear that the 4 horsemen are those 'spirits' that have been restrained by God, and when the restraints come off the true nature is revealed.1whowaits

LS--I see no compelling reason from language, syntax, grammar, context, intent of the author, or history to reason a connection between the four sprits bound at the Euphrates and the four horses. But this is another classic example of hypothesis going shopping for evidence. Sorry, I do not mean that personally.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:07 am

lambslave wrote: Those with the Lord in 19:14 are also on white horses. White cannot mean "righteous" in one place in Rev and unrighteous or "deceit" in another. Such a hermaneutic has resulted in the chaos we have today in this book. And some very reputable men whom I know and respect insist this is the antichrist.


I was not referencing the white horses, but the riders.

In both cases the riders wear diadems.


Rev 6:2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown (G4735) was given to him

Rev 19:12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems (G1238)
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:20 am

You are right, I was carlesss and wrong. The rider on the white horse in Rev 6:1 is given a στέφανος as we see beow. Sorry. Please forgive me. In my memory it was a diadem, I should have verified it.

καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῳ̂ στέφανος

And of all things the sorce of my name! My mother turned over in her gave.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:28 am

lambslave wrote:You are right, I was carlesss and wrong. The rider on the white horse in Rev 6:1 is given a στέφανος as we see beow. Sorry. Please forgive me. In my memory it was a diadem, I should have verified it.

καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῳ̂ στέφανος

And of all things the sorce of my name! My mother turned over in her gave.


:hugs:
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:50 am

Abiding In His Word--I went back and checked my translation. I had made a note to myself that a stephanos could also signify regal authority as a diadem. See below, the stephanos worn by The Lord was meant to mock regal aithoity.
mark 15:17
7καὶ ἐνδιδύσκουσιν αὐτὸν πορφύραν καὶ περιτιθέασιν αὐτῳ̂ πλέξαντες ἀκάνθινον στέφανον·
Black, Matthew ; Martini, Carlo M. ; Metzger, Bruce M. ; Wikgren, Allen: The Greek New Testament. Third edition (Corrected). Federal Republic of Germany : United Bible Societies, 1983, S. Mk 15:17

The crown does not make a case for deception. Who, in the CONTEXT, would he be deceiving, how, why?
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:42 am

lambslave wrote:The crown does not make a case for deception. Who, in the CONTEXT, would he be deceiving, how, why?


G3528
nikaō
nik-ah'-o
From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): - conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.

The crown alone does not make a case for deception, that is true. But when I look at this rider using a white horse (imitation of the true), with a crown (rather than a diadem), and his purpose is to conquer (or overcome), I see deception and imitation.

We do not battle flesh and blood, but principalities and powers. The battle is spiritual for believers. The goal of the great deceiver is to overcome the saints, but we are cautioned to be the overcomers against his wiles.

(1Jo 5:4 NASB) For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

(1Jo 5:5 NASB) Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(Rev 2:7 NASB) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.'

(Rev 2:11 NASB) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'

(Rev 2:17 NASB) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

(Rev 2:26 NASB) 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations;

(Rev 3:5 NASB) 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

(Rev 3:12 NASB) 'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

(Rev 3:21 NASB) 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

(Rev 21:7 NASB) "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.


I could be wrong, of course, but I think this rider is in keeping with Paul's admonition for us to watch for the man who will cause a great apostasy:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction....... who displays himself as being God 2Thess. 2:3

Jesus warned us over and over again about the deception that is to come and judging by the state of the church today, I believe the great imitator has opened the first seal..... he "looks" like the true one....white horse, crown, bow..... But the true Jesus is wearing many diadems of royalty and speaking with the sword of truth.
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:28 am

Abiding In His Word--Both in the study of logic and philosophy we were taught to employ the falsifiability challenge as an aid in discovering if a position has merit. Anticipating such a challenge I described what the horse and rider might appear as to express an antichrist figure. So, now, Abiding In His Word, I ask you to describe how the horse and rider should have appeared for my interpretation to be correct? LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Pretzelogical on Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:30 am

Stephen, are you saying the rider of the white horse is a person or a nation or the saints of all the earth?
...ls: YES


That is enough evidence, my friend, to prove to me, YOU ARE A SMART MOUTH! Hahahahahahaha!
Just one more of the reasons we hold you so dear to our hearts!
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Sun Sep 21, 2008 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pretzelogical
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 1:57 pm

Pretzelogical, On a more serious note, I believe it is the person (arguably) elected by the people who is the white-horse rider. He rides by their consent--simply a suggestion--implicating them (saints, their nation) in the activity.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Mttw633 on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:08 pm

Thanks for bringing up this verse. Hopefully you are done with the analyzing of crown, because I have a new one for you. The bow:

Rev 6:2 And2532 I saw,1492 and2532 behold2400 a white3022 horse:2462 and2532 he that sat2521 on1909 him846 had2192 a bow;5115 and2532 a crown4735 was given1325 unto him:846 and2532 he went forth1831 conquering,3528 and2532 to2443 conquer.3528
G5115
τόξον
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.

Strong's Number: 5115 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
tovxon from the base of (5088)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Toxon None
tox'-on Noun Neuter

Definition :
a bow

King James Word Usage - Total: 1
bow 1

Doesn't tell us much, he had a bow. (a noun) What's the point in carrying a piece of fabric? I don't think it is the intent of the word, look at the base word: G5088




G5088
τίκτω
tiktō
tik'-to
A strengthened form of a primary word τέκω tekō (which is used only as an alternate in certain tenses); to produce (from seed, as a mother, a plant, the earth, etc.), literal or figurative: - bear, be born, bring forth, be delivered, be in travail.

tivktw a strengthened form of a primary teko {tek'-o} (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Tikto None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
tik'-to Verb

Definition
to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)
of a woman giving birth
of the earth bringing forth its fruits
metaph. to bear, bring forth


King James Word Usage - Total: 19
bring forth 9, be delivered 5, be born 3, be in travail 1, bear 1

So if you use the base word meaning to bring forth, to produce their seed- (which is the noun form of the base?)-I'm just thinking as I type, is it the seed of satan being introduced/brought forth? Remember, the devil has seed and it's in enmity between the woman and her seed.

The base word is used in these verses so you get an idea of the word:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Mt 2:2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

Lu 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Lu 1:57 Now Elisabeth's full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.
Lu 2:6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
Lu 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Lu 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

You're input would be appreciated.
Mttw633
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:49 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:33 pm

The word for bow, toxon, used only here in the N.T. means "bow"
William Mounce, An Analytical Lexicon To the Greek New Testament, p. 453, Zondervan. 1993.
I could find no authority who hinted at a meaning of deception for toxon.

It would be good at this point for you to borrow the book, Exegetical Fallacies by D.A CARSON. It is required reading for anyone who does exegesis. [buy your own copy] Your statements about toxon are unintentionally naive. You and Iamthewalrus will be awesome exegetes after you read the book and learn Greek better. Example, finding the root of the word gay tells you absolutely NOTHING about its meaning today. the root falacy. The book will not make you always agree with me, you will simply be better at understanding the text.

I would send you my copy, but i need it to keep from steping on my tongue. LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Mttw633 on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:41 pm

I have a friend who's greek. She speaks fluent greek. But she does not live her life according to God's word. Now, tell me, who would understand God's word better, her or me?
Mttw633
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:49 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:55 pm

Mttw663, I have friends who know some Greek, but are better christians than me, but it hasn't improved their Greek skills at all. I've cautioned students not to confuse a teacher's spirtual gifts with his spiritual friuit. Your friend probably understands modern Greek bettere than you; and if she's had Koine, that too. But you apparently know how better to apply the word of God--far more important. Did I step on any land mines? LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Mttw633 on Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:16 pm

The Holy Spirit should be our instruction when meditating on God's word. I find when reading some commentary I don't always agree with what the experts say. I asked for your input and that's what I got. As I said above, I don't always have to agree with it. :grin:
Mttw633
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:49 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 5:40 pm

Oh, I could not agree with you more. You cannot find my works in commentaries because I got them "from the floor." I don't however discount scholarship--it does help when I stand up. LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Pretzelogical on Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:04 pm

Whether I agree or not with Lambslave's suggestion of the White hourse and its rider, I cannot ignore these possible supports of his observation:

August 1
Total Solar Eclipse with clearest view from Moscow. Sales begin on the "Beautiful Mosques of the USA" wall calendars published by the US government. Solar eclipses as signs for the gentile nations?

"Early August"
In Syria, scientist see the biggest star explosion ever. Is believed to be visible thru end of winter.

August 7
Russia invades Georgia killing twenty Jewish families.

Augst 8
Putin and Bush together at the Olympics (Roman).

August 9
Jewish Fast begins at sundown to remember destruction of two temples. Historically a bad day for the Jews. Day Moses came down and they were worshipping the golden calf.

August 10
Russia agreed to cease fire, but pushed forward instead. Reports of electric-looking hole-punch clouds seen over Russia.

August 13
Bush sent troops/ship for "humanitarian reasons"
Reports in UK of sky going completely black for 6 seconds at 9:20 AM while bright lights in Canada said to be a propane explosion.

August 15
Jewish Sabbath of Consolation begins at sundown.

August 16
Partial lunar eclipse. McCain/Obama "conversation" at Saddlebach with Rick Warren (globalism of faith and governament for service/P.E.A.C.E.)

August 18
Partial lunar eclipse fullest place on earth at 12:11 a.m. Israel's time.

August 21
King of Jordan in Russia

August 22
Iran said it will invade Kuwait, USA, Britain and European ships there.

August 24
King of Jordan finishes meetings with Putin in Russia then meets with Medvedev in Kazahstan.

(Then I was out of town so ???)

September 3
US first ground attack vs. Pakistan

September 7
EU willing to renegotiate with Syria for first time in three years. Russia warns NATO to get ships out of the Black Sea in 21 Days or else!

September 8
Two Russian bombers land in Venezuela for first time.

September 10
Big Bang Machine (LHC) has first test run. Announcement of star explosion seen from Syria early in August.

September 11
Syria says USA did 911

September 12
Russia announces re-opening of Syrian ports in the Med Sea at Tartus had been closed in 1991. Three floating piers. Russia's only port abroad.

September 14
Russia announces Syria is willing to have missile defense shield from Russia in stalled in Syria, Syria denies it.

September 15
EU had set this date for an ESPD mission deployed by this date. Iran runs anti-aircraft exeercises.

September 17
US Embassy murder of 16 in Yemen! Fed Reserve bought most of AIG to regulate it. House votes to drill offshore in *wrong* area.

September 18
Livni elected in Israel.

September 19
Russia sells arms to Venezuela and Iran.
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pretzelogical
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby crmann on Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:27 pm

Great discussion...

Let me add some reinforcement as to the "white horse"... I hope you folk won't mind.

Revelation 6:2
I looked, and behold, (1) a white horse, and he who sat on it had (2) a bow; and (3) a crown was given to him, and (4) he went out conquering and to conquer.

1. A white horse = the fact that the horse is white is symbolic. However, what is symbolically represented by the white horse is not certain. Equally, the rider on the white horse is not certain. Some argue that the rider is Jesus Christ--a position that does not contextually fit. That the Lamb is breaking the seals and at the same time represented as a rider is unlikely. Equally, there is no prophetic indication that Christ comes at the beginning of the eschatological events. The only similarity between the rider of Revelation 6 and Revelation 19 is the “white horse,” which is hardly a basis to claim equality. The identity or actions indicated by the breaking of the first seal can only be discerned from prophetic parallels throughout Scripture. A conquering rider fits best with the lawless one prophetically depicted in II Thessalonians 2.

Also, this interpretation ignores the fact that the white horse is connected with the other three which are depicted as scourges of humanity. The white horse probably represents ‘conquest’ or ‘triumphant militarism.’

2. A bow = is used in Scripture in both a literal and figurative manner. It is hardly possible that a literal bow is intended here. It was not the favorite weapon of choice for Roman soldiers and in modern warfare, a bow would be useless. The bow is used figuratively in Scripture as a symbol of war.

3. A crown was given to him = a crown is a symbol of authority or right to rule. "Was given" indicates that this rider does not take authority, but that it is given to him. This is an example of the passive voice in which the subject is acted upon instead of doing the acting. In other words, the subject receives the action. The particular Greek word used here appears 22 times throughout the book of Revelation. The giver is not explicitly identified, but context indicates that either God or Satan is the ultimate cause behind each action indicated in these passages.

4. He went out conquering and to conquer = here we see the purpose of the rider. He conquers. What he conquers is not indicated.

There are several questions, which the seals foster. First, what is the relationship of the Lamb to the events unleashed by the broken seals? The second question: who is the rider on the white horse? The last question concerns the timing of the rider’s conquest.

It is clear that the first four seals are different from the final three seals, a distinction also recognized in the trumpet judgments. In addition, it is clear that the breaking of a seal inaugurates the events of that seal. Therefore, what term properly reflects the Lamb’s relationship to these events? Does the Lamb cause or allow the events? Is He directly or indirectly responsible for the events?

In relation to the first four seals, a third party causes the first, second, and fourth seals. The third seal indicates that “a voice in the center of the four living creatures” announces the impact of the third seal. David Aune concludes that these facts support the conclusion that God commissions or enables these events (Aune, Revelation 6-16, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 393). We, therefore, agree that God is the direct cause of these events. This is not to say that the first four seals are the wrath of God. A point proven by the question of the fifth seal martyrs. Rather, these are prophesied events of the future, which God will superintend to insure fulfillment. As all events on earth are controlled by God Himself, the first four seals are broken in heaven to allow the riders to ride on earth. As in all cases, God allows evil, but is never its author or agent.

The second question fostered by the first seal concerns the identity of the rider. Out of the many possibilities offered, probably the person who will later be identified as the beast from the sea (Rev 13:1). As the primary antagonist and counterpart to the Lamb in the Revelation, the beast best accords with the description given in the first seal.

First, the rider is mounted on a white horse. This is compared to the Lord who rides a white horse when He comes at Armageddon as detailed in Revelation 19:11-21. This has led some commentators to argue that the reader is Christ Himself. This can hardly be the case given that Christ breaks the seals. Equally, it is clear that the seals initiate events on the earth in connection with the end of the age during which the Lord will return to earth from heaven. During this period, there is no prophetic indication that the Lord will initiate this period by conquering on the earth. The white horse imagery is the first indicator of the rider’s identity. As the imitator of Christ and world-deceiver, the beast fulfills his destiny. The white horse is a part of his deception.

The second descriptive detail associated with this rider is a bow. The bow is an ancient instrument of war. This rider is prepared for war. The third descriptive detail concerns a crown. The crown (stephanos) denotes rule or authority (II Sam 12:29-30). The fourth and final descriptive detail concerns the rider’s conduct—“he went out conquering and that he might conquer.” To rule over others by conquest is the goal of this rider. These are descriptive details related to the beast.
The Lord Jesus predicted that the end of the age would begin with a dramatic increase in false proclaimers. These false proclaimers will proclaim one message, but have false motives (Matt 24:5). And these false proclaimers are..........?????

I think we can all agree that the rider on the white horse is not the Lord Jesus Christ.

Blessings all....

The Old Timer
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Sun Sep 21, 2008 10:45 pm

crmann, Please comment: All uses of the color white in the Revelation denote righteousness, righteous. The color is always directly or indirectly associated with the Lord or saints. The rider didn't say he rode a white horse. God is telling the story and God is not being deceptive. God is the one who tells us that this rider rides the same kind of horse that the Lord rides. The nature and direction of this horse is righteous. If we call the white horse false righteousness, then white loses its meaning and anything goes in the symbols of this book (pretty much how it is today--I'm sorry Lord, I can't convince them. Help me.). Yes, this rider carries the wrong weapon, the bow, to accomplish a righteous goal. This rider has experienced a recent victory and received recognition. Peace reigns on earth; but it will soon be taken away by the rider on the red horse.

When Paul wrote to the Thess (2 thess 2:3) he said apostacy comes first then the man of sin.
I see more an apostate christian leader trying to do the right thing.
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby peanutsrnuts on Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:42 am

I can't resist interjecting.

Every time I study these scriptures this song "When the Man Comes Around" by Johnny Cash runs through my thoughts.

Here it is on youtube for others who might want to hear it. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtK-QCiD-FE

Johnny Cash (When the Man comes Around)

Lyrics:

And I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder: One of the four beasts saying: "Come and see." And I saw. And behold, a white horse. There's a man goin' 'round takin' names. An' he decides who to free and who to blame. Everybody won't be treated all the same. There'll be a golden ladder reaching down. When the man comes around.

The hairs on your arm will stand up. At the terror in each sip and in each sup. For you partake of that last offered cup, Or disappear into the potter's ground. When the man comes around.

Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marching to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.

And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Till Armageddon, no Shalam, no Shalom. Then the father hen will call his chickens home. The wise men will bow down before the throne. And at his feet they'll cast their golden crown. When the man comes around.

Whoever is unjust, let him be unjust still. Whoever is righteous, let him be righteous still. Whoever is filthy, let him be filthy still. Listen to the words long written down, When the man comes around.

Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers. One hundred million angels singin'. Multitudes are marchin' to the big kettle drum. Voices callin', voices cryin'. Some are born an' some are dyin'. It's Alpha's and Omega's Kingdom come.

And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. The virgins are all trimming their wicks. The whirlwind is in the thorn tree. It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

In measured hundredweight and penny pound. When the man comes around.

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts, And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him.
peanutsrnuts
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:10 am
Location: Listowel, Ontario

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Pretzelogical on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:12 am

--Now when someone says they are a Johhny Cash fan, I'll have more to go on than a "Boy Named Sue".

The white horse shows righteousness, no doubt. I cannot be convinced it is not the saints.
We are children of the king with a crown.
We were given a crown we could not earn.
We are to be over-comers (conquoring).
Now the apostate church has a bow, no arrows. Worthless. The bow was not given to the saints. Yet they carry it. Worthless.
The apostate saint carries no sword of truth.

We are told the first thing will be the falling away/apostasy of the saints. That is pictured beautifully in this first white hourse. "Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit," says the Lord. Yet, the saints do not carry the sword of the Spirit (the word of God) they carry their own useless bow that was not given to them by God. They have added a worthless bow, and taken away the word of God.

Daniel 12:7 ... "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

"Just like in the days of Noah" keeps coming back to my mind. God put his bow in the cloud as a signal. (Different word, I know, but they both can mean an archer's bow at the site where I checked.) The bow in the hand of the rider of the white horse is a signal. God's bow in the cloud is the signal of The Covenant that God will not destroy the whole Earth with water. The bow in the hands of the saints is a signal too. What is it the saints are destroying? THE GOSPEL! An archer does not keep his bow strung. He keeps it loose so it will stay strong. He only strings the bow tight when heading into battle or out on the hunt. And he wouldn't do that without arrows with him. The rider of the white horse is the righteous saints acting foolish and having no power. That is the signal, and yes, we all clearly see that. How do we know when it is as bad as it will get? When the second horse comes. Do we see conflict now? Oh yes! I believe Lambslave may be correct that the second horse, the red one, began to ride in August. If events occur on the Feast (Appointed Time) of Rosh Hashanah (Trumpets) on September 30, I will be convinced to begin looking for the third horse, Scarcity. The earthquake in banking makes that seem very likely. The fourth seal is when it will be too late to stock up with food to give in Jesus name.

I see the false doctrines and false gospels that have disarmed the saints and given them a useless bow as they go out to conquor evil. Therefore, the first horse, apostasy, is powerless to stop the second horse of Conflict, then the next horse, Scarcity, then the next horse Death.

What good is salt that has lost its saltiness but to be trampled under foot? Sounds like apostate saints being marched over to me. And yes, I believe that fits with our time of the white horse with the others coming. The fact there is not a big bang to start this shows this is something that approaches as the horse comes. False teaching has been in the church since the beginning, but the signal is the apostasy would be on the rampage. That is what we are seeing today, for certain. The four horses are Apostasy, Conflict, Scarcity, and Death, in my opinion. Due to the apostasy, the remaining horses now know it is time for their easy victory. They did not meet on a battlefield but they come on when the apostasy is widespread, just as Jesus said. The three remaining horses are aimed at the saints as we read in the fifth seals.
Last edited by Pretzelogical on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pretzelogical
 
Posts: 1425
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 10:58 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby ilovejesus2 on Mon Sep 22, 2008 5:26 am

lambslave'

i've been reading and re-reading this passage

about the 4 horses

it seems - if you wanted to put it simply - that the last 3 horses bring "bad" things on the earth

whereas the first, white horse, doesn't necessarily bring anything bad... so i tend to agree with you

you talked about the 2nd horse being most likely russia

can you give us your thoughts on the 3rd horse, the one with the scales... i've always been confused by the language...
a penny for a measure of wheat....??? penny seems pretty cheap in today's money..... was a penny a lot then? like a day's wages? and then, another question.... what would a measure of wheat be? like a loaf of bread?..... so is it possibly saying a day's worth of work for a loaf of bread?

can you then comment on the penny for 3 measures of barley?

thanks
ilovejesus2
 
Posts: 126
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:29 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:07 am

i will be at the hospital today. my daughhter may have cancer LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Cantaress4Him on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:16 am

LS,

I prayed for your daughter and will continue to pray. May God's blessings and healing be on her.

Sincerely,
Last edited by Cantaress4Him on Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cantaress4Him

2 Chronicles 20:21 And when he had consulted with the people, he appointed singers unto the LORD, and that should praise the beauty of holiness, as they went out before the army, and to say, Praise the LORD; for his mercy endureth for ever.
User avatar
Cantaress4Him
 
Posts: 1385
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:14 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby crmann on Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:55 am

lambslave wrote:crmann, Please comment: All uses of the color white in the Revelation denote righteousness, righteous. The color is always directly or indirectly associated with the Lord or saints. The rider didn't say he rode a white horse. God is telling the story and God is not being deceptive. God is the one who tells us that this rider rides the same kind of horse that the Lord rides. The nature and direction of this horse is righteous. If we call the white horse false righteousness, then white loses its meaning and anything goes in the symbols of this book (pretty much how it is today--I'm sorry Lord, I can't convince them. Help me.). Yes, this rider carries the wrong weapon, the bow, to accomplish a righteous goal. This rider has experienced a recent victory and received recognition. Peace reigns on earth; but it will soon be taken away by the rider on the red horse.

When Paul wrote to the Thess (2 thess 2:3) he said apostacy comes first then the man of sin.
I see more an apostate christian leader trying to do the right thing.


Okey, Lambslave, I'll see what I can do.

Revelation 6:2
I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and (4) he went out conquering and to conquer.

When the first seal is opened, John sees a white horse and rider. This part of what John saw is most likely a supernatural vision. No one on earth will see a white horse and rider when this event takes place. However, the people on earth will be able to see the corresponding natural events, which is being discussed in this thread.

This type of relationship between the supernatural and the natural is described in other places in the Bible. For example, chapter 1 of Zechariah says that riders and their horses in the supernatural realm are supernatural beings under the direction of God, with assigned responsibilities on earth. Zechariah Chapter 6 says different colored horses are assigned different areas of the earth. The white horse goes to the west, the red horse goes to the east, the black horse goes to the north, and the dappled or pale horse goes to the south. Zachariah's directions are from the location of Jerusalelm, which is always the case with the prophets of God. This information will provide helpful in considering the horses and riders of Revelation 6.

When John writes about the horses and the riders, he is describing something God is doing in the supernatural realm that corresponds to events that will happen on earth.

When the first seal is opened, a white horse and rider come out. The ride has a bow and rides out determined to conquer. Because the white horse has been assigned to the west, the west will be determined to conquer. Due west from Jerusalem crosses northern Africa and extends to the United States of America.

Just another idea thrown into the picture.....

Lambslave, you've said: "All uses of the color white in the Revelation denote righteousness, righteous. The color is always directly or indirectly associated with the Lord or saints."

I have to say I don't find this to be the case as I read other scriptures depicting white horses.

Blessings,

The Old Timer
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Sep 22, 2008 7:29 am

lambslave wrote:i will be at the hospital today. my daughhter may have cancer LS


:praying:
User avatar
Abiding in His Word
SITE ADMIN
 
Posts: 29262
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:54 pm
Location: SW Florida

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby mark s on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:12 am

Just a few thoughts to add in here . . .

The stephanos, or laurel, that is, victory wreath (not ruler's diadem), is given before this rider conquers. Now, whether or not it is given following some victory, we don't know, the text does not tell us.

We should not formulate doctrine based upon such a supposition. We should stick to what the text actually tells us.

The rider that is presented as a military might holds a "great short-sword". The rider has a bow. The first mention of a bow in the Bible is as a symbol of a covenant between God and man, that God would never again destroy the earth by water:

Gen 9:13 I have set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.

In the LXX, this is the same, toxon.

Interestingly, the first mention of white in Scripture (Gen 30) concerns economic manipulation.

Also very interesting, at least to me, considering we all seem to agree this rider is not Christ Himself, why the similarities?

Can it really be that America is such a righteous nation?

Personally, I see this as the wrong kind of crown to represent a ruler using his authority, and the wrong kind of weapon to represent a mighty army.

The victory wreath, being given before the victory, is seen be some as a sign of deception. This is a celebrated victory who hasn't yet achieved his victory.

The bow in his hand, seen by some as one who comes with a covenant, reminds me of Peter:

2 Peter 3:3-7
(3) first, knowing this, that during the last days scoffers will come walking according to their own lusts,
(4) and saying, Where is the promise of His coming? For from which time the fathers fell asleep, all things remain so from the beginning of creation.
(5) For this is hidden from them by their willing it so, that heavens were of old, and earth by water, and through water, having subsisted by the Word of God,
(6) through which the world which then was, being flooded by water, perished.
(7) But the heavens and the earth now, having been stored up by the same Word, are being kept for fire to a day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

One who comes telling the world that they won't be destroyed, not to worry . . .

Considering Jesus has already warned us to expect false christs, why should we be surprised when we see one?

Not to mention the nature of the other horses . . .

I see in these that God prepares the world for His judgment. As Jesus opens these seals, the following are made completely hostile to mankind:

The rider on the white horse: Government turns overwhelmingly oppressive

The rider on the red horse: Society turns overwhelmingly violent

The rider on the black horse: Economy turns overwhelmingly inflated

The rider on the green horse: Environment turns overwhelmingly dangerous
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
User avatar
mark s
MODERATOR
 
Posts: 13969
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:38 am
Location: Southern California, USA

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby IamtheWalrus on Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:49 am

Praying for you and your daughter Lambslave.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
User avatar
IamtheWalrus
 
Posts: 1946
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: The people's republic of Seattle

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Mttw633 on Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:50 am

LS, I'll be praying for you and your family.

The bow in question still troubles me. This greek word toxon is only used once in the bible, and one source says a bow= this specific meaning does not occur in the greek NT. What does that mean? We have no specific definition? http://www.greekbiblestudy.org/gnt/gree ... greek=true

Do we go to the root of the word in greek to find out, or do we do as Mark suggests and go to the hebrew? Do you have a link to the use of toxon to decribe bow from Genesis? That would be helpful.
Mttw633
 
Posts: 3021
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:49 am

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:11 am

I think Lambslave is on to something here.

One thing no one has discussed here that I can see is the results of the fourth horse and riders.

Revelation 6:1-8

The First Seal—Rider on White Horse

1 Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.”

2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

The Second Seal—War

3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.”

4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

The Third Seal—Famine

5 When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.

6 And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine.”

The Fourth Seal—Death

7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.”

8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.


If you look at the results of the Fourth horse- the ashen Horse who bears death and Hades- they are given authority over 1/4 of the earth to kill, notice that they kill with the plagues that the other two horses bear- The sword of war- the red horse, the scales of famine the black horse, doesn't it stand to reason that the obvious rider of the white horse then the conqueror- are the wild beasts of the earth? And what are the wild beasts?

They are the nations of the earth that God uses to accomplish His righteous will. Take Babylon for example, God sent Babylon to take captive the nation of Judah to accomplish His will- that the land would enjoy it's Sabbaths. Nebuchadnezzar was God's divinely appointed instrument, used to accomplish righteousness. In fact because of his pride he lived as a beast of the field.

Jeremiah 27:6-11

6 “Now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and I have given him also the wild animals of the field to serve him.

7 “All the nations shall serve him and his son and his grandson until the time of his own land comes; then many nations and great kings will make him their servant.

8 “It will be, that the nation or the kingdom which will not serve him, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine and with pestilence,” declares the Lord, “until I have destroyed it by his hand.

9 “But as for you, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers or your sorcerers who speak to you, saying, ‘You will not serve the king of Babylon.’

10 “For they prophesy a lie to you in order to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out and you will perish.

11 “But the nation which will bring its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let remain on its land,” declares the Lord, “and they will till it and dwell in it.” ’ ”





All the following verses speak of Beasts as nations.

Deuteronomy 7:17-24

17 “If you should say in your heart, ‘These nations are greater than I; how can I dispossess them?’

18 you shall not be afraid of them; you shall well remember what the Lord your God did to Pharaoh and to all Egypt:

19 the great trials which your eyes saw and the signs and the wonders and the mighty hand and the outstretched arm by which the Lord your God brought you out. So shall the Lord your God do to all the peoples of whom you are afraid.

20 “Moreover, the Lord your God will send the hornet against them, until those who are left and hide themselves from you perish.

21 “You shall not dread them, for the Lord your God is in your midst, a great and awesome God.

22 “The Lord your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you.

23 “But the Lord your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed.

24 “He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them.


Ecclesiastes 3:17-18

17 I said to myself, “God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man,” for a time for every matter and for every deed is there.

18 I said to myself concerning the sons of men, “God has surely tested them in order for them to see that they are but beasts.”


Daniel 7:3-8

3 “And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another.

4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it.

5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’

6 “After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.

8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


The Golden crown is not always a victors crown- but can also be a sign of royalty or exalted rank, so IMO it stands to reason that this conqueror is just that, the spirit of the conqueror- poured out upon kings and kingdoms, to move in such a way as to accomplish God's plan, for correction, punishment, or to bring about events necessary to fulfill prophecy. Since the fourth horse accomplishes his goal through the plagues brought on by the other two- it makes obvious sense that the "wild Beasts" are the plague of the rider on the white horse. Who though we may see them as evil, they truly are God's agents and therefore the white Horse representing righteousness is applicable.

Romans 13:1

1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.


Titus 3:1

1 Remind them to be subject to rulers, to authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good deed,


1 Peter 2:13

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,


I do not necessarily agree that this conqueror = George Bush only, since I cannot say for certain when the seals of the riders are opened. The Lamb recieves the scroll upon taking His seat at the right hand of the Father- this happened upon Christ's ascension into heaven. Thus we cannot say when these four seals are opened, they could have been opened right away, or sometime later, or are waiting to be opened in the future. Since all the effects- war, famine, death, conquering nations- have been a part of the landscape since the fall of mankind really- then how can we know for certain? It is the opening of the 5th and 6th seals that will be obvious to all. Though I would agree with Lambslave that the rider of the white horse does correlate to Nations of the earth- wild beasts.

RT
Resurrection Torchlight
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 pm

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby IamtheWalrus on Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:06 pm

Mttw633 wrote:Do we go to the root of the word in greek to find out, or do we do as Mark suggests and go to the hebrew? Do you have a link to the use of toxon to decribe bow from Genesis? That would be helpful.


I think going to the Hebrew text is the better option, and would be considered more accurate.
Ken
Psa 40:1-3
I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, [and] established my goings.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, [even] praise unto our God: many shall see [it], and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
User avatar
IamtheWalrus
 
Posts: 1946
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 5:14 pm
Location: The people's republic of Seattle

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby crmann on Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:44 pm

I hope this gets posted... I'm having a lot of trouble getting my posts to post today...

LS, I, also will be praying for you and your family. :praying:

Blessings,

The Old Timer
Image
User avatar
crmann
 
Posts: 10409
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:06 am
Location: Mountains, Western NC

Re: The First Seal: Apparently Broken

Postby lambslave on Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:59 pm

I just returned from the hospital. My daughuteer, Melanee is awaiting the results if an MRI and Ultrasound. The results will be faxed to me to read. Keep us in prayer, including my son-in-law, Jason and three children ages 5, 11, 15. She and her husband are devoted , worshiping believers.

On a different note, I thought I should share some other facts about the seals before I engage unanswered posts.

One comparison I have not pointed out is the remarkable difference between the bow caried by the white-horse rider, and the sword (or knife) supplied to the red-horse rider. In battle the bow was typically used first, except in cases of surprise entrapment. The archers weakened the enemy from a distance with the bow, then the foot soldier engaged the adversary face to face in a personal way after chariots and horses, if they were available. Bottom line the bow was a long range weapon, the sword (knife) GK: makairos was for close in personal fighting. It was the easily concealed makiros that was used by the zeaots to sneak up and silently assasinate the enemies of Israel. Armed with a makairos, one who was planning murder would look like any other peaceful citizen.

The rider on the red horse, to whom it was granted to take peace from the earth, was supplied to take it with a very odd sounding weapon, the makaira megala μάχαιρα μεγάλη The makaira was to be distinguished from the larger warfare sword, mentioned in 6:8. But here the makaira is called a "large small sword" (large knife or dagger).

So, weilding the makaira sometimes invoved deception and surprise, always involved being on the same ground with your enemy.

Therefore, for this and other compelling reasons I see this rider as one who takes peace from the earth by murdering with covert means, by a LARGE SMALL KNIFE.

I STILL MAINTAIN MY ORIGINAL POSITION. The rider of the Red Horse is the deceptive antichrist who, in cooperation with some Araab country or group, brings nuclear materials into at least the ten largest U.S. cities to kill as many people as possible , especially christians, to desecrate the Temple of the Holy Spirit. One third of born-again christians will die. LS
lambslave
 
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:08 pm

Next

Return to Prophecy Debate Area

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exit40 and 0 guests