Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:17 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark,

<snip>

The thing about it is this. He wants to prepare us so that when it happens we can receive it. We can be the new wine skin that receives the new wine and does not burst and spill out what was put in. New wine put in old wine skins will burst, so allow God to prepare us; and He will use us for His glory.

God bless


Have you considered that a brand new wine skin that is unused but has aged will also burst if you put new wine, i.e. freshly picked and squeezed grapes, into it.

An old wine skin in reality is an aged wineskin that has become hard and brittle. However, a leather wine skin can be rejuvenated and then reused to store recently squeezed fresh wine without bursting. That is why Paul in Ep 4:23 tells us to renew(G:0365) our mind, i.e. rework the hardness of our mind so that it is soft and gentle and loving and etc., and to then to put on the renewed/refreshed (G:2537) nature, that has been remodelled/rejuvenated in the likeness of God in righteous and holiness. But this is just my little beef about other peoples understanding of the properties of leather and how to use and work it.

Shalom
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:19 am

It seems to me that you all are over complicating this matter.

We come to Christ in faith for the forgiveness of sin, repentance is part of that.
We have to put on the new man, this is sometimes a daily "putting on" which also requires repentance on our part
As we are sanctified, growing in Christ and His nature, we learn to walk in His ways more and more.

It is all a work of God's grace, the Holy Spirit takes up residence in me, He convicts me when I stray from God and begin to walk in my flesh. I heed that conviction and repent and turn back to following the Spirit. It is grace that makes this possible.

For all of us our faith is God's work in progress. We are all at different places on our path toward maturity. Part of maturing is recognizing this fact, and learning not to be critical of others on the path of faith. Our job is to come alongside those less mature and encourage them to stay focused on Christ and His word, not to beat them down trying to fit them into a mold that reflects our journey. That is legalism. It isn't legalism unless I require others to do the same thing as I am doing. Faith is not a one size fits all proposition, we cannot fit others into our own molds, asking them to walk exactly as we do.

The whole idea that because one is justified, one has no need of repentance is a slippery slope. In fact you could take that to it's logical conclusion, which some do, since Jesus died for the sins of all, then all are justified and all are saved this is also known as Universalism.


Consider this passage:
John 13:7–11
7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.”
8 Peter *said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.”
9 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.”
10 Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.”
11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”


Being "bathed" is a picture of justification, being made "completely clean" , yet Jesus chided Peter saying that if he didn't allow Him to wash his feet, Peter had no part in Him. Pretty strong words don't you think? The washing of feet is I believe a picture of sanctification. Notice it is not something we do for ourselves, Jesus washed their feet, and He goes on to instruct them to wash each other's feet in service to one another. If we are justified we are clean, we are kept clean as we walk through this world by sanctification, the washing of our feet, the cleansing of ourselves from the dirt we pick up along life's way.

Romans 6:19
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.


Hebrews 12:11–14
11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,
13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.
14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.



The passage in Hebrews reiterates what Jesus says to Peter, that without the washing of his feet, (sanctification) he had no part in Christ, without it no one can see the Lord.

Also notice that in the passage in John Jesus points out that not all the disciples were "clean", referring to Judas. Though he was within Christ's circle, Judas was not clean, a foot washing would not cleanse his body, which was dirty. Judas looked like a disciple, acted like a disciple, hung out with them,lived among them, ate with them..etc.... Even the disciples themselves had no clue that Judas would betray the Lord, John tells us in the chapter just before (John 12:6) that Judas was a thief, who pilfered from the money box, lacking concern for the poor. His body was unclean, he needed a bath not just a foot washing.

What I am pointing out here is that as long as we walk in this world in human flesh, we will need to have our feet washed. The Holy Spirit will convict us, whether through His own work in us, or by using others in Christ to point out our need to wash our feet. The point is, that we need to have our feet cleansed. We need to submit to the cleansing, that is what Jesus was telling Peter. Otherwise we have no part in Christ. And we will submit to it, as scripture tells us, even if it takes some disciplinary action to get us there. If we are Justified, we will be sanctified. Sanctification is the natural outcome of Justification if we truly believe and are in Christ.

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:56 am

I guess for me the simplicity is this.

Jesus' work on the cross was effective and final. Sins are removed from humanity - mankind is reconciled to God.

If we confess our sins, agree with God that we sin, God will forgive and cleanse us. We become reborn as God's children,
and after that, God will never abandon us, never stop improving us, never send us away, shut us out, stop helping us, because He loves us so much!

I hear talk of placing your faith in this or that or something else, we've place our faith in Jesus. Does that me we don't build expectations of our pastor? Or whatever? No, not necessarily. But does God throw us away because we get confused?

Of course not!

Having already given His Son, will He not also give us everything else?

There is a reason I need to submit to God, to submit to His word. It's a good reason. I can't do what needs to be done on my own. I often don't even have a clue what needs to be done. My sense of importance is sometimes very different from His sense of importance.

I fail. We all do. That's the reason the Law doesn't work. So God gave the new covenant. It doesn't matter if I fail, because Jesus succeeded. And He is relentless - He Will make His victory mine.

This is the joy of the Lord in my life.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:04 am

I don't disagree with you Mark! It is all grace, it is all a work wrought in God. Without Christ we cannot repent, we cannot overcome anything. With Christ all things are possible! He who began the work is faithful to complete the work.

I am so thankful that my salvation is in Christ, that my justification is in Him, as is my sanctification and one day in Him I will also know glorification, that is when the work is complete, when I will be made to be like Him! because He did the work of reconciliation.

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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:25 pm

Hi RT, I know we are in agreement, and it is always a joy!

There can be only one reason that no created thing (including myself, I'm a created thing), there can be only one reason nothing can separate us from God's love. And that one reason can only be because He did it all!

Salvation is His work.
Sanctification is His work.
Glorification is His work.

Speaking of which.

At the risk of running down a rabbit trail . . .

For those he called he also justified, and those he justified . . . he also glorified.

These are all the aorist tense. If we are already called, and we are already justified, aren't we already glorified? What does that mean, anyway? To be glorified?

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:27 pm

Jay Ross wrote:
sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark,

<snip>

The thing about it is this. He wants to prepare us so that when it happens we can receive it. We can be the new wine skin that receives the new wine and does not burst and spill out what was put in. New wine put in old wine skins will burst, so allow God to prepare us; and He will use us for His glory.

God bless


Have you considered that a brand new wine skin that is unused but has aged will also burst if you put new wine, i.e. freshly picked and squeezed grapes, into it.

An old wine skin in reality is an aged wineskin that has become hard and brittle. However, a leather wine skin can be rejuvenated and then reused to store recently squeezed fresh wine without bursting. That is why Paul in Ep 4:23 tells us to renew(G:0365) our mind, i.e. rework the hardness of our mind so that it is soft and gentle and loving and etc., and to then to put on the renewed/refreshed (G:2537) nature, that has been remodelled/rejuvenated in the likeness of God in righteous and holiness. But this is just my little beef about other peoples understanding of the properties of leather and how to use and work it.

Shalom


Thanks Jay, it is more than just interesting what you wrote. I really didn’t consider an aged wine skin that had never been used. I like the analogy of being rejuvenated as you stated in Ep 4. I think it is Her 12 as well, by the renewing of your mind. This work that He works on us works only when we place our faith in Jesus and what He did at the cross. We learn humility along with being sanctified so that when His Spirit empowers us, we won’t get the big head.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Happydaddy on Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:22 pm

All i know is that ya'll are frustrating as anything I've ever experienced. I will go away for a couple days or a week and come back and on some threads there a few people that have conversations akin to a soap opera; you can come back a week later and the conversation hasn't moved more than a few sentences or 2 posters have dominated the thread with their "knowledge!" Some of ya'll like to debate matters to show your knowledge of a topic. It will literally bog down an interesting topic with just a few peoples "well thought out theological opinion". The length of some of these threads and the ridiculousness of them is off the charts. Sorry to rant like this but it gets overbearing to read through some of these threads. Sorry again.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:34 pm

Hi RT and Mark, When we say that it is all grace, not to be nick picky, but to stay true to that form of doctrine that was delivered to us, it is by grace through faith. You can’t leave either of those out, because your faith is what brings you into the covenant. Our faith in Jesus and what He did at the cross enables the God to give us His grace.

It is by Grace through Faith, not of works lest we should boast. His grace is always available when someone evidences faith to bring that grace into their lives. At salvation, it is when we receive Christ as Savior and Lord, afterwards, it is faith in Christ and what He did at Calvary that brings grace into our lives on a daily basis.

Jesus acknowledged folks that exhibited faith to show us how important it is. We practice our faith, as you have said, we are not perfect, we do the best we can, but when our faith is in the wrong thing, we stunt our growth, and if it is not corrected, it will make us self righteous. What I’m writing about is the gospel. Jesus is the new covenant. We can say that it was written in His blood.

We should make a big deal about grace. I agree that it is right to do so. It is amazing grace, and it is a gift of God. God’s grace is always consistent. Our faith is the thing that wavers. He has given unto every man a measure of faith, and He wants us to use it. One way, and I know you all know this so bare with me, is to read His word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Prayer helps in this way also. Hearing preaching and teaching from God’s servants is also a way. I know I’m preaching to the choir quite a bit hear, but the importance of where our faith is placed is critical.

Hi Happydaddy, Why don’t you tell us what you really think!

Just messing with you.

I think I can speak for all those who took time in this thread, mostly me and Mark, but others as well, that if it wasn’t important to us we wouldn’t take the time and effort to share, sometimes personal experiences and inner thoughts. I appreciate that you were frustrated, and I will admit that I have written a lot of redundant statements, on purpose. I’m stressing something that is important, with the hope that some may see it.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:12 pm

Happydaddy wrote:All i know is that ya'll are frustrating as anything I've ever experienced. I will go away for a couple days or a week and come back and on some threads there a few people that have conversations akin to a soap opera; you can come back a week later and the conversation hasn't moved more than a few sentences or 2 posters have dominated the thread with their "knowledge!" Some of ya'll like to debate matters to show your knowledge of a topic. It will literally bog down an interesting topic with just a few peoples "well thought out theological opinion". The length of some of these threads and the ridiculousness of them is off the charts. Sorry to rant like this but it gets overbearing to read through some of these threads. Sorry again.


Im not sure if this will be useful for you happydaddy, but you can block any contributor so as to avoid having to read their posts. Maybe this is a solution to any of the contributors whose posts aren't appealing to you, especially if most or all of what they post bothers you in some way.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:18 am

Happydaddy wrote:All i know is that ya'll are frustrating as anything I've ever experienced. I will go away for a couple days or a week and come back and on some threads there a few people that have conversations akin to a soap opera; you can come back a week later and the conversation hasn't moved more than a few sentences or 2 posters have dominated the thread with their "knowledge!" Some of ya'll like to debate matters to show your knowledge of a topic. It will literally bog down an interesting topic with just a few peoples "well thought out theological opinion". The length of some of these threads and the ridiculousness of them is off the charts. Sorry to rant like this but it gets overbearing to read through some of these threads. Sorry again.


Hi Happydaddy,

At the risk of being one of those of whom you speak, Herb had you in mind:

Rule 6. No unnecessarily long posts that no one wants to read.


:grin:

I'm terrible at trying to be brief, but still I try! And sometimes, yes, it turns into a detailed discussion between two people who strongly disagree. I'm OK with it as long as everyone plays nice.

But I have to agree with you wholeheartedly in respect to the other readers. How to wade through the morass that some of these threads become!

This is one of the reasons I find it to be so important to remain respectful, and be actually responsive to the statements offered. So much writing fills so much space for nothing - disrespect and innuendos, dodging questions, the soap opera.

What a tragic commentary!

Personally, I believe truth is simple, and can be simply stated, if understood. I do want to assure you that my one intent is that I may build up the body of Christ, that all may understand and live in the grace that we have received.

But I also want to assure you I am taking your words to heart.

Much Love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:38 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi RT and Mark, When we say that it is all grace, not to be nick picky, but to stay true to that form of doctrine that was delivered to us, it is by grace through faith. You can’t leave either of those out, because your faith is what brings you into the covenant. Our faith in Jesus and what He did at the cross enables the God to give us His grace.

It is by Grace through Faith, not of works lest we should boast. His grace is always available when someone evidences faith to bring that grace into their lives. At salvation, it is when we receive Christ as Savior and Lord, afterwards, it is faith in Christ and what He did at Calvary that brings grace into our lives on a daily basis.


Hi SCB,

We will continue to disagree over this.

John 1 says that God gives birth to us. Is there a passage where this is undone?

Colossians 3 says that those who have been raised with Jesus, having died with Jesus, will be revealed with Jesus. This must be true. Is there a passage which says otherwise?

1 John 3 speaks of those who have passed from death into life. Is there a passage which says we can pass back into death?

Colossians 1 says that we have been transferred out of the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of God's Son. Is there a passage which speaks of us ending up back in the kingdom of darkness?

It seems to me that you are putting the onus of remaining saved on man's ability to do so.

I am saying that man will always fail, his failings being the weakness of the first covenant, so the new covenant was instituted on the basis that Jesus never fails.

You assert that saving faith is a day by day thing, and we can be born again then dead again, then born again then dead again, and so on. Is that correct?

I am saying that we have already escaped the corruption that is in the world, and that God is committed to us sharing in His very own nature, and in fact that we have been reborn with His nature, His very life in us, and because He forever lives, we too shall forever live.

And I thank God that at last . . . I am safe!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:44 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Our faith is the thing that wavers. He has given unto every man a measure of faith, and He wants us to use it. One way, and I know you all know this so bare with me, is to read His word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Prayer helps in this way also. Hearing preaching and teaching from God’s servants is also a way. I know I’m preaching to the choir quite a bit hear, but the importance of where our faith is placed is critical.



And indeed our faith wavers. In an ideal world, perhaps all of us have the chance to read His word, and hearing preaching every week, etc. However, there are still quite a few minority groups that have yet to have the bible translated into their written language. The Gideons are trying their best but sometimes all that a person or group has, is hearing the gospel once. Then if there are people who are illiterate or of a lower IQ to under the bible. Then there are many who work in jobs that do not allow them to go to church e.g. those who work on board ships and in the coal fields, etc... Then, to be honest, there are some situations that just causes one to lose faith. Job stayed true to God but when one's family is all destroyed and everything is taken away, can we blame the person from becoming discouraged?

What I am saying is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation... I believe that that power is able to see us through all our wavering. We waver, but He nevers. If God accepts us as children of God, does he ever repent of his decision to call us children of God because of our wavering? If we as lesser mortals, not disown our own children no matter how unfilial they have been to us, is God made of lesser nature to disown his very own?
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Happydaddy on Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 am

mark s wrote:
Happydaddy wrote:All i know is that ya'll are frustrating as anything I've ever experienced. I will go away for a couple days or a week and come back and on some threads there a few people that have conversations akin to a soap opera; you can come back a week later and the conversation hasn't moved more than a few sentences or 2 posters have dominated the thread with their "knowledge!" Some of ya'll like to debate matters to show your knowledge of a topic. It will literally bog down an interesting topic with just a few peoples "well thought out theological opinion". The length of some of these threads and the ridiculousness of them is off the charts. Sorry to rant like this but it gets overbearing to read through some of these threads. Sorry again.


Hi Happydaddy,

At the risk of being one of those of whom you speak, Herb had you in mind:

Rule 6. No unnecessarily long posts that no one wants to read.


:grin:

I'm terrible at trying to be brief, but still I try! And sometimes, yes, it turns into a detailed discussion between two people who strongly disagree. I'm OK with it as long as everyone plays nice.

But I have to agree with you wholeheartedly in respect to the other readers. How to wade through the morass that some of these threads become!

This is one of the reasons I find it to be so important to remain respectful, and be actually responsive to the statements offered. So much writing fills so much space for nothing - disrespect and innuendos, dodging questions, the soap opera.

What a tragic commentary!

Personally, I believe truth is simple, and can be simply stated, if understood. I do want to assure you that my one intent is that I may build up the body of Christ, that all may understand and live in the grace that we have received.

But I also want to assure you I am taking your words to heart.

Much Love!
mark


I think I came across as angry and I didn't intend to, sorry about that! It's just that some of these threads end up being 2 sided conversations b/t 2 people that probably aren't going to budge. And I appreciate the time it takes to develop an opinion on a subject. I didn't know Herb had a rule about this subject! Anyhoo.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:41 am

Scripture gives us an analogy of faith, that is that we begin as infants who grow toward maturity.

Infants cannot do much for themselves, but breath and observe. A baby relies on milk from it's mother, it cannot talk, walk or care for itself. Our faith is similar. As we grow in Christ we begin to take steps of faith on our own, we begin to eat some hard food. As toddlers we falter, we "waver". If we are fortunate we will find the encouragement of others to help us up when we fall, to keep teaching us how to walk, to show us how to prepare meals for ourselves and to even serve others some of that food. We are born into the body of Christ, most of us do not live out our faith in a vacuum. This is why we need the other members of the body to encourage each other when we do falter and to build each other up. The goal is maturity, Christ gives us everything we need to pursue growth. A human child will grow as a natural outcome of being nurtured. As a spiritual child we also will grow as a natural outcome of being nurtured.

2 Peter 1:5–10
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;


Verse 5 uses the word "supply", that word according to strong's means to administer nourishment. We apply diligence in our faith to administer the nourishment of moral excellence, knowledge, etc... Verse 10 explains how this is done, by practice. Just as a child practices walking, and talking and feeding itself. If we diligently nourish our faith with the food that Christ has provided by putting His word into practice in our lives we will never stumble. We will mature as a child of Christ. I child cannot be unborn, it will grow and mature into what it has been genetically imprinted to become.

Verse 9 is an interesting bit of doctrine. It talks about how there are those who lack these qualities because they are either blind or short sighted. The point is that they lack the qualities.

2 Peter 1:3–4
3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.
4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.


If one lacks the qualities it is because they did not receive them. Christ, by His divine power gives His children everything they need to pursue godliness and become partakers of His divine nature. Those who do not posses the qualities are not saved. If you are reborn as a child in Christ, you will grow and mature into what your spiritual DNA has determined you to become, you will grow in the divine nature of Christ. It is a forgone conclusion.

Yes we will waver, but not so that we fall off the path entirely. He puts His spiritual DNA into us, and it forever changes and alters who we are. There is no going back. The DNA doesn't go away because we trip up once in a while. He will work in our lives to accomplish His will. It may take correction through discipline, and difficulty, just like it does with our earthly children. Some are compliant and others not so much, but we remain forever His children. Maturity comes at different rates for different folks. Some remain in that toddler phase for a long time. Others mature more quickly.

We have a responsibility as believers to take what God has given us and nourish our faith with it. But even that act is a work of the Holy Spirit in us. We couldn't nourish our faith without God's helper who convicts us of our need to do so. Sometimes we need a kick in the pants to get us to eat our vegetables! But even if growth is very small , it is still growth. So:

Hebrews 10:23–25
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:06 am

Actually the eternal security of a believer is as clear as day to me... John 3:16 clearly says the believer has eternal or everlasting life... either eternal is eternal or it is not... There are no in betweens...
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:34 am

Hi RT,

I really love the way you describe all of that.

One thing I'd like to mention is that Peter wrote that if we lack these qualities, it is because we've become shortsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten we've been cleansed of our former sins.

We can fail to grow in Christ, to truly thrive, because we've forgotten we're clean.

So many teach we have to keep going back to the well for forgiveness, but that only communicates the message that this is Scripture is not true, we've not been cleansed, so we have to keep coming back for cleansing!

(I know you don't think this way)

And the truth is just the opposite! It is through understanding - remembering - that we have been cleansed, it is knowing this truth that is the faith upon which the rest stand. Jesus Christ our Savior.

Knowing His gracious salvation, believing it to be true, now I add virtue - goodness. Want to be good. Add knowledge. Learn what good is. Add self-control. Make yourself keep doing good. And so on.

Those who do not believe in their cleansing . . . it breaks my heart!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:16 pm

So many teach we have to keep going back to the well for forgiveness, but that only communicates the message that this is Scripture is not true, we've not been cleansed, so we have to keep coming back for cleansing!


I suddenly remember a passage in Luke 9:62

Jesus replied, “No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”
(Luke 9:62 NIV)
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:39 pm

Hi brothers and sisters, my apologies for not checking in on this thread for days. I thought it had ended since I didn’t get any email updates. We updated our browser several weeks ago and one of my mail boxes is having trouble receiving emails.

I feel I am so far out of the loop by now that getting back on the train is next to impossible.

Of course I stand by everything I wrote as to what the gospel of Jesus Christ is, where our faith is be placed, and how the Holy Spirit works in His obedient children.

One of most reverent things about our walk in Christ is how the Holy Spirit works, and over 90 percent of churches never preach or teach on the subject. Actually, it is probably good that they don’t since they don’t really understand how He works. It is like discipleship; in most classes or bible studies in most churches, you will be told what to do, but not how to do it. We could say, ‘well, it is all done by grace’. True, but how does it work?

Again, I wouldn’t have taken the time and effort if I didn’t know how critical it is that Christians hear what I and many others have come to understand, and that is, that our faith needs to be in Christ and what He did at the cross.

It is paramount that this is what we place our faith in. I don’t think I have to rewrite everything that I said earlier. If it was read, the reader would understand most of what I said. In my saying that, I am not demeaning anyone, I understand that if we have been in a certain way for most of our lives, number one, we tend not to be open to change. Number two, if not everyone is following this way, I’m not either.

Of course, I have always said that it is good to be stubbornly immoveable in your beliefs. The word says that we should be fully persuaded in our own minds. Very often it is desperation that leads us to the truth. Failure after failure after failure will lead one to desperation. Of course this assumes that the person has a good and honest heart.

Denial can only go so far in feeling comfortable in error. I say denial, but in the case of one believing in a certain doctrine, it is not denial necessarily because if one sincerely believes, it is not a matter of failure, it is that I will get it right some day because I know that what I believe is correct. In other words, maybe I’m just not getting it all right, but the fault is not what I believe to be true, it is on my part.

This is a true believer in what you believe and I respect this in people. We do have the word of God that says that we shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. Also Gal 5:1 which speaks of liberty.

I have said earlier that God has winked at sin in the past. It relates to our subject Mark because most Christians are not understanding how sanctification works. Not to go into all the ways that I could say it, but just to say that if our faith is in anything other Jesus Christ and Him crucified it becomes sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. James

Of course you would say that that doesn’t apply to me because I live by grace through faith. I would agree that you do, but the faith is misplaced. I say these things in love and I think you know that from our exchanges. What I’m saying is that there is coming a day, and it is not far away, that God is going to make a distinction between who is pleasing Him and who isn’t.

The word says that, ‘without faith, it is impossible to please Him, for you must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him’. Hebrews

Not just any faith, the right kind of faith. The Pharisees had faith in their religion. Paul, for example, was extremely sincere in his zeal for the Jewish religion. His ‘faith’ in it was strong, but when Jesus appeared to him that beautiful day, his life would never be the same.

Paul shows us all how brilliant he was. After he asked, ‘who are you’? He finds out that it is Jesus, and he asks, ‘what would You have me to do’? Acts

This shows that Paul was a very smart man. Later he would write that, 'all those things I thought were gain, I now count as loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ’.

But we should not be easily persuaded. Paul had been around a number of Christians before his meeting Jesus. He had been convicted by their holy living, the peace and joy of their souls, so that when the Damascus road experience came, he had already been dealt with by the Holy Spirit.

Still, Paul was a remarkable man, and thank God that He had prepared him for such a time, because it was through him that Jesus would give the meaning of the new covenant.

You brought up verses in the word that are 'establishing truths' that are being laid out. None of these proves that what I’m saying is not true. I almost feel that you know this, but you are stating them, why?

I stated many times that if a person gets saved, and they walk with Jesus and follow Him correctly, they will never be moved. How to walk and follow the Lord has now become evident in these last days. Knowledge has increased and it is time that we take heed to the truth.

Allow the Lord and the Holy Spirit to persuade you. I’m not saying receive it now. I’m saying that when you do your reading and praying, and you see something that challenges the form of doctrine you believe in, be open to that being from God and not the devil.

The church will for the most part fall into apostasy. They will fall away from the faith, and in truth, they have already fallen away.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:35 pm

Hi RT, I really appreciate you and what you wrote, much of it being the word of God, as in Mark’s writings.

Before I get into what I have come to know, let’s look at the analogy you give about the infant growing up in a healthy way as it would relate to our faith starting out small and how we may grow up and mature.

Most parents love their children and want to do good to them. Im many cases, because of certain circumstances, it can be very difficult for some to do the good they would do for their kids. There are others cases where the parents may just be rotten people, but for the most part, most people want the best for their kids and try to perform that.

In a dysfunctional family, it is common to grow up with many issues and immaturity. It is also found that without the proper nutrition children will suffer many things, depending on how severe it is.

In a good setting, a child will grow up healthy and mature and become a good citizen and hopefully receive Jesus as Savior.

Faith is very much the same. If it is right, it will produce, by God’s grace through faith, a beautiful Christian. They will be like Jesus, their Lord.

This faith however, has to be right. It cannot be wrong and have the expectation of producing another representation of Jesus Christ.


I understand where you are coming from on being born again. Once a person has been saved and born again, they can not be unsaved or unborn again in this sense; they have been changed, they can not be unchanged. They have tasted of new life, they will never be what they were before being saved.

Losing one’s salvation is a very real thing however, and unless one come back to the Lord, they will be lost. One of most prominent passages is the prodigal son. The father said, ‘my son was lost, and now he is found, he was dead, and now he is alive’. If the son had not returned to his father, he would have remained lost.


You mention Peter’s epistle about how God provides everything we need. True, but how does He provide it?

Everything that we receive from God comes to us by what Jesus did on the cross. Everything. There is no exception. It is not His resurrection that brings anything to us in this sense; the resurrection would have never happened unless Jesus died for every sin that was committed or would ever be committed. Because He did this, the resurrection was certain. The veil was torn after He died on the cross, not after He rose, meaning that the way was open for us to enter into the Holy of Holies because of His death. Why is this so important?

The issue that needs to be seen and understood is the issue of our faith. What we place our faith in determines whether we grow up healthy of not. It is not a given that the Holy Spirit will mature us. It is not automatic. We have to present ourselves to Him as living sacrifices, with our faith exclusively in Jesus and what He did at the cross.

This brings Him glory and this is the true faith that was once delivered to the saints. I think that is in Jude.

It is by grace through faith. Faith is crucial, and I know that you are aware of this. A lot of what I write is just building up where I’m going. I have read many of your posts and I know that I am not speaking to a novice. There is however, a lot riding on whether our faith is right or wrong.

If you have read the earlier posts, you saw that the wrong faith will bring us into law and away from God’s grace. We will lose the divine nature that was given to us because of God’s grace, and we will once again enter into the sin nature.

Either we live under law or under grace. God has made it so that there is no in-between. In reality there is a slight in-between, but it up to God as to how long He will suffer our wrong position. Ignorance plays into it, and God is fair about everything He does.

The way this happens is that when we place our faith in our bible reading or our church attendance, or some formula, or anything other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, we enter into works. We begin to work for our sanctification. Our focus becomes our works and our performance. We are then relying on our own strength and our own selves. It will aways produce failure. This is the way God has made it, and it is very good that He did, because when we get it right, it is so good.

There is so much peace and everything becomes much clearer. I know there is more coming. God is calling out to His children about these things, sort of like wisdom crying out in the streets as in Proverbs, for anyone who will hear it.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:01 pm

Keeping Alert wrote:
sacredcowbasher wrote:Our faith is the thing that wavers. He has given unto every man a measure of faith, and He wants us to use it. One way, and I know you all know this so bare with me, is to read His word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Prayer helps in this way also. Hearing preaching and teaching from God’s servants is also a way. I know I’m preaching to the choir quite a bit hear, but the importance of where our faith is placed is critical.



And indeed our faith wavers. In an ideal world, perhaps all of us have the chance to read His word, and hearing preaching every week, etc. However, there are still quite a few minority groups that have yet to have the bible translated into their written language. The Gideons are trying their best but sometimes all that a person or group has, is hearing the gospel once. Then if there are people who are illiterate or of a lower IQ to under the bible. Then there are many who work in jobs that do not allow them to go to church e.g. those who work on board ships and in the coal fields, etc... Then, to be honest, there are some situations that just causes one to lose faith. Job stayed true to God but when one's family is all destroyed and everything is taken away, can we blame the person from becoming discouraged?

What I am saying is that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation... I believe that that power is able to see us through all our wavering. We waver, but He nevers. If God accepts us as children of God, does he ever repent of his decision to call us children of God because of our wavering? If we as lesser mortals, not disown our own children no matter how unfilial they have been to us, is God made of lesser nature to disown his very own?



Yes, Keeping Alert, His power is able to see us through all our wavering, and I don’t want to sound like it is easy to lose one’s salvation. God does what He can to get us to the truth.

You mention would God ever disown His children? Not easily, but He did disown Israel and divorced them, although He had made a covenant with them. But because of their determination to follow other gods, and is other cases, worship Jehovah, but in their own way, on the high places and not in the temple, He finally had had enough.

We know that all of Israel will be saved in the coming days, praise God, because hey are His elect. That doesn’t mean however, that He did not divorce them.

If it had not been for Moses, He would have destroyed them in the desert and started over with just Moses and probably Caleb and Joshua.

Not to complicate what I have written, but I don’t think we lose our salvation because our faith is placed wrongly. We do move from grace to law. We do lose the divine nature and enter once again into the sin nature. But I believe we struggle along trying to live out our walk with great difficulty, but it doesn’t mean we lose our salvation.

If we give up on our faith entirely, then we are in trouble, but if we don’t quit, He won’t quit. When we sin, and we will sin very much if our faith is in the wrong thing, because we nave entered back into the sin nature, we confess our sin, and He is faithful to forgive us of our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. As long as we don’t quit, He won’t.

If one has placed their faith wrongly, it might be a little difficult to get used to letting God be in charge of your life. We are so used to being in control, it will almost be like trying to learn how to walk again. But because it is the right way, He will greatly help us because the Holy Spirit will have no restraints in this sense;

When our faith is placed rightly in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross, the Holy Spirit and the man or woman that has their faith rightly placed, are both glorifying Jesus Christ. We are under God’s grace and His power is totally available to us.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:39 am

If we give up on our faith entirely, then we are in trouble, but if we don’t quit, He won’t quit.


Hi SCB,

Thanks for your detailed reply. I can feel your love as your try to explain your point of view to us.

I am sure i am reading wrongly but i am getting a feeling that you are saying "Great is my faithfulness"? vs "Great is thy faithfulness"?

Blessings
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:23 am

Hi KA, thanks for saying what you did in the opening line, I really appreciate that, and thank God for it.

On my faithfulness, I hope that I am found faithful. My faithfulness and my responsibility are very similar. I am to found faithful and I am responsible to work out my own salvation in fear and trembling. I am still learning how to walk this walk of faith. If you see fault in me, maybe it is because I am faulty. I haven’t claimed to have arrived by any means, and have said the opposite. I am delivering a message, an imperfect messenger, maybe delivering the message in an imperfect manner, but I’m doing my best to convey the message of how a believer is to live.

As long as I follow Christ in the way that He designed, those hearing me should not fall into the ditch. The apostle Paul said, ‘follow me as I follow Christ’. The message is that as we were saved by grace through faith, we are sanctified the exact same way. Is it easy to live out? No, because we are geared from infancy to work for our gold star so to speak. When I was young and in grammar school, the teacher would give us gold stars when we did excellent work, and silver stars for less than perfect work, etc. There was a red star as well for mediocre work.

This is not totally abandoned as Christians, because we are to diligently seek Him. We are to present ourselves to Him, to be found faithful etc. We do not work for our salvation however, as religion does. We are not good because of our efforts. We are in right standing with God through Jesus Christ because we believe.

God counted Abraham’s faith as righteousness because he believed in His promise. When Isaac was 12, he brought him up Mount Moriah and was ready to obey God in sacrificing his son, his only son of Sarah’s. He would have gone through with it, but the angel of God stopped him. God said, I now know that Abraham will raise his children to worship and serve Me (paraphrase).

Faith was around long before the law. The law was a schoolmaster until the time when the One would come to fulfill the law and show us a better covenant with better promises.

The message of the cross for sanctification is not new. It is found throughout Paul’s writings in his epistles. Paul had to very often correct the early church for getting off into law or other erroneous doctrines. The devil will try to mess you up one way, and if that don’t work, he will try another way. He may try to make you feel like the worst human being to ever live in one moment, and if that don’t work, he will work to try to make you feel you are the greatest person to ever live.

Satan moves into the body of Christ on the back of truth. When the Judaizer’s would come into a newly established church which the apostle Paul had established, they wouldn’t say that Paul had it all wrong. They would say that now that they had accepted Jesus as Messiah, they needed to keep the law of Moses as well in order to be saved.

What we need to see today is that we can not live the Christian life apart from Jesus Christ and what He did at the cross. What He did at Calvary is the new testament. Jesus himself is the new testament. Everything that we receive as Christians is a result of what He did on the cross, whether it is spiritual, financial, emotional, physical. Anything and everything we can receive from God is because of Calvary.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:17 am

Hi SCB,

On the whole, there is much you write that I agree with. I especially like your description of learning to live in faith in Jesus, like learning to walk, again, much of what you write.

There is something in particular that I'd like to comment on.

You wrote:

but I don’t think we lose our salvation because our faith is placed wrongly. We do move from grace to law. We do lose the divine nature and enter once again into the sin nature.


I don't believe we lose the divine nature and once again enter into the sin nature. I believe we can lose the benefit of having a divine nature if we forget that we are a new person.

I think this is what the Scripture means when it talks about the deceitful lusts of the flesh.

Ephesians 4:22-24 (ESV)

22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.


We can wear the old person, who was born from Adam's line. Or we can wear our new person, who is born from God.

And who is created in true righteousness and holiness.

I don't think we lose the divine nature. I think that our flesh deceives us, through many different means, into allowing it to have it's own way, which is the sin that remains in our lives.

Paul wrote of sin in Romans 7, therefore it is no longer I who do it, but sin that lives in me.

He dissociates himself from the sinner. He is the new man.

Stop trusting Jesus? Yes, sin results. Try to live outside of solely trusting Jesus? A life of Law. Yes, I agree. But I think that when we are not growing in grace and holiness, it simply means we've forgotten who we are.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:37 pm

Hi Mark, I totally agree with what you are saying here in that it is true for many Christians. There is more to the story however. I would say that over 90 percent of Christians who don’t know who they are in Christ also don’t have their faith solely in Christ and what He accomplished at the cross, which is where we get our victories and our position of having God’s grace and His divine nature.

I know you are aware of the place where most Christians in America are spiritually. Maybe you agree with me that they for the most part are in apostasy as we speak. They are like the Jewish slaves in Egypt, but I’m not sure they are crying out as of yet, in desperation. Maybe they think they don’t have it too bad because they compare themselves among themselves instead of comparing themselves to Jesus. They probably don’t read their bibles like they should or pray like they should. Now I’m talking to myself.

How did they get into this place of failure spiritually speaking? It is a law that God put into place from the beginning. Sin will ultimately produce death and bondage. We will lose the Life Jesus gave us, and it all stems from our getting our object of faith wrong. The object of our faith should be Jesus Christ. We should have joy because our sins were forgiven, and we should love Him and cling to Him.

The focus of our faith should be on the cross. This is where the victory was won. Won and done. It is finished. His work was completed successfully, which is an understatement.

With our faith being on these two things, we will be lead by the Holy Spirit and God will give us the peace and joy that comes with his grace. Now there is no limit to what God can do, but it is up to Him.

There is a verse somewhere, and I almost hesitate to bring it up since I don’t know where it is, that indicates God’s wrath upon us when we move our faith away from Christ and begin to walk in the flesh.

If you are up to it, we can look at the book of Galatians because it may help to support the things I have been writing about.

We could just go through Exegesis style to break it down.

What I could do is start a new thread in the Bible Study forum, what say ye? We don’t have to start right away. Let me know.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:19 pm

I forgot to comment on the Romans 7 comment,

Paul was letting us know his experience, and you have stated it well at least twice in this thread. For those that are not familiar with Romans ch 7, just to refresh, Paul found himself sinning and he most definitely didn’t want to. He received understanding about the matter.

Paul found that with his mind he obeyed the law and was in right standing positionally because he acknowledged that it was just and holy and right. He found that there was another law in his members and that sin was present. When he would do good, he found he couldn’t. But the things that he would not do that is what he did.

As you have said Mark, it is how I see it as well. He separated the two things because he discovered the two laws, and because of what Jesus did at the cross, and because he received Christ as Savior and Lord, there is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Positionally Paul is perfect, flawless as Mercy Me sings about it.

This is not the end of the story, but it is the beginning on the new life in Christ.

We are instantly sanctified when we receive Christ and are born again, positionally. In other words, we are dead but alive in Christ. The law has no effect on a dead man, like the analogy of the woman whose husband dies. While her husband is alive she is bound to her husband, but when he dies she is free.

We are dead to the law because we died with Christ, as you have said a number of times.

This is where progressive sanctification comes in. Paul lets us know a little further in the chapter or it may be in chapter 8, that the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead will quicken our mortal bodies. This is grace, it is what grace can do.

When the apostles often say in their openings of their epistles, ‘may the grace and peace of God be with you’, etc, it is not just a nice thing to say. It is power for living.

Grace can be increased and it can be decreased. We can know the goodness of God and the severity. Paul asked God to remove from him a thorn in his flesh and after the third time, Jesus said to him, ‘Paul, my grace is sufficient for you, for my strength is made perfect in your weakness’.

When we know that we are weak, God can use us without it destroying us.

In chapter 3 of John, it says that Jesus received grace without measure. This indicates that we receive grace in measured amounts. How is it that God exults us? Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and in due season He will exult you.

Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up. How does this work? I believe He increases His grace in our lives. We Are able to do more and we remain humble and give the glory to Him who deserves it.

Back to Paul and Romans 7: We are to become like Jesus which means we will not always remain in the state of Romans 7. The work of the Holy Spirit in our lives will reveal sin and we will grow in the grace and knowledge of Him. We will find ourselves changing and we won’t know how it happened because it is His work.

For this to work correctly, we need to place our faith correctly.

If our faith is correct through this whole process, we will never lose His divine nature. Unfortunately, for most of us, this is not the case, but it can be corrected easily when we do things His way.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:57 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, I totally agree with what you are saying here in that it is true for many Christians. There is more to the story however. I would say that over 90 percent of Christians who don’t know who they are in Christ also don’t have their faith solely in Christ and what He accomplished at the cross, which is where we get our victories and our position of having God’s grace and His divine nature.


Hi SCB,

I understand now that you are saying that we have God's grace and divine nature on a moment by moment basis, is that right?

Or if that sounds too extreme, suffice to say that God's importation of grace to us, and His sharing His divine nature with us, can come and go according to how we act. Is that a fair statement?

How does that reconcile with Ephesians 4:24, which claims that our new man has been created in God's likeness, in righteousness and true holiness? Do we become "uncreated"?

Can a child become unborn?

What would happen when God's offspring dies? Is it the same as when Adam's offspring dies?

There is a verse somewhere, and I almost hesitate to bring it up since I don’t know where it is, that indicates God’s wrath upon us when we move our faith away from Christ and begin to walk in the flesh.


I can't think of a verse that says that.

I can think of verses that say that we have escaped from God's wrath, that there is now no condemnation upon us, that there is no law that condemns us, and that nothing can ever separate us from God's love in Jesus Christ.

But I can't think of a verse that says that. Would you mind looking for me?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:02 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:
In chapter 3 of John, it says that Jesus received grace without measure. This indicates that we receive grace in measured amounts. How is it that God exults us? Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and in due season He will exult you.


On this part, were you thinking of:

John 3:34 (NASB)

For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure.


But this is "Spirit", rather than "grace".

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:05 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:
We are instantly sanctified when we receive Christ and are born again, positionally. In other words, we are dead but alive in Christ. The law has no effect on a dead man, like the analogy of the woman whose husband dies. While her husband is alive she is bound to her husband, but when he dies she is free.

We are dead to the law because we died with Christ, as you have said a number of times.


If we are dead to the law . . . what is the law that we break? What would condemn us as lawbreakers? If there isn't a speed limit, who can write you a ticket for speeding? Isn't the One Who gave the law the same one Who exonerates us?

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:09 am

sacredcowbasher wrote:
For this to work correctly, we need to place our faith correctly.

If our faith is correct through this whole process, we will never lose His divine nature. Unfortunately, for most of us, this is not the case, but it can be corrected easily when we do things His way.

God bless


My understanding of what you are saying here is that salvation is God's work, but staying saved is our work, is that correct?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Tue Jun 26, 2018 6:29 pm

Hi Mark, If you consider faith work, then the answer is yes. We work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

I don’t consider faith work, but when the disciples asked Jesus what work they were to do that they might have eternal life, He said, ‘this is the work that you are to do, believe in Him in whom He sent’. I think that is in John 6?

So believing in Him, (faith), is the only ‘work' we are to do to have eternal life. Jesus wasn’t calling faith work, in my opinion, He was showing that there was no work that could give them eternal life.

The other thing, and there may be more, is that we present ourselves to Him, we obey Him, we love Him, we praise Him, etc. We are His children, He is our Lord and God. We have the responsibility to make our calling and election sure. We should study the word of God to show ourselves approved.

Eph 5:15-17 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of Lord is.

There are many admonitions given to us to help us understand how we are to remain holy.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:48 am

Hi SCB,

In Galatians 2:20 . . . (YLT)

with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;


This translation is very literal, and follows the Greek word order closely, which is why it reads so choppy.

The life I now live in the flesh, I live in the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me . . .

Where it says "faith of the Son of God", this is written in what's called the Genitive Case, which means that this faith either comes from, or is possessed by the object, in this instance, the Son of God.

So that the life I live, I live by the faith that is possessed by, or comes from Jesus.

Jesus' faith is in me, producing life in me. And what is the strength of Jesus' faith? Is it not absolute?

Is that not amazing?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:16 pm

There is another I like to share . . .

1 Thessalonians 3:11-13 (NASB)

11 Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you; 12 and may the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love for one another, and for all people, just as we also do for you; 13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.


May the Lord cause you to increase and abound in love . . .

That He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father . . .

Well . . . one more . . .

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


May the God of peace . . . Himself . . . sanctify you . . . entirely . . .

blameless . . .

Faithful is He who calls you . . . He will bring it to pass.

He will sanctify us. He will do it! He is faithful.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:44 pm

Hi Mark, that is what I’ve been saying. Progressive sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. He does it. What we do is place our faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross.

What you are saying about faith is part of it. Faith is also a fruit of the Spirit, it is a gift of the Spirit as well.

But to say that it is all God’s responsibility because it is His faith that He has given to us; what about this?

Where Jesus says in many places, O ye of little faith. Why is He chiding them for having little faith, since He is the One who gave it to them?

Now I concur that the word says that, He has given every man a measure of faith.

The measure that He gives us is no doubt pure. But when you add the devil, the world, and our flesh into the mix, it can get all messed up.

If one is a student of the word, we can begin to see that our faith needs to be placed on the object of Jesus Christ, and on the focus of the cross. Jesus is glorified this way, and since it is the way that was first delivered to the saints, it only makes sense that we should be about our Father’s business, so to speak, and do things His way.

When we deviate from His prescribed order, we move into works and away from grace. Then all kinds of bad things can happen.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:51 pm

Romans 5:20-21 (NASB)

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


In the same way that sin reigned in death, in that way grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life in Jesus.

Romans 7:5 (NASB)

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.


The law came, and inflamed sin to new heights. Sin, empowered by the commandment, worked through our bodies to bury us in fruitfulness - but all for death.

Romans 5:12 (NASB)

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—


We all sinned, so we all die.

Sin reigned through death, and it did this by producing death through our bodies.

Now, Grace reigns through righteousness. That is, grace produces righteousness in us.

Grace reigns through righteousness to eternal life in Jesus.

Being righteous, we can live forever with Jesus!

Sin made us dead, but grace made us righteous.

As many as received Him - Jesus - to them God gave the right to become children of God . . . born of God. God's begotten children.

"Righteousness to eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord", there is a purpose named for this righteousness, and that is to bring eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:06 pm

sacredcowbasher wrote:Hi Mark, that is what I’ve been saying. Progressive sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit. He does it. What we do is place our faith in Jesus Christ and what He accomplished on the cross.


Hi SCB,

Interesting term, progressive sanctification. I've come to understand that people can have different understandings of this.

To me, progressive sanctification refers to the process of the new creation taking over the behavior of the body away from the old creation. Would you agree with this meaning? If not, how do you understand it?

What you are saying about faith is part of it. Faith is also a fruit of the Spirit, it is a gift of the Spirit as well.

But to say that it is all God’s responsibility because it is His faith that He has given to us; what about this?


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (NASB)

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.


Do you accept this passage as true? He is faithful, and He will sanctify you entirely. Do you believe this? Do you have a different understanding of what it is saying?

Where Jesus says in many places, O ye of little faith. Why is He chiding them for having little faith, since He is the One who gave it to them?


This was before "born again" started happening. Jesus had told His disciples, He had to go away, so He could send the Holy Spirit, but that He wouldn't abandon them, He would come back to them.

Not to mention, there was the meaning that faith had to them. Did they really think they were going to sink with the Lamb of God aboard?

Now I concur that the word says that, He has given every man a measure of faith.

The measure that He gives us is no doubt pure. But when you add the devil, the world, and our flesh into the mix, it can get all messed up.


But just the same . . .

Galatians 2:20 (YLT)

with Christ I have been crucified, and live no more do I, and Christ doth live in me; and that which I now live in the flesh -- in the faith I live of the Son of God, who did love me and did give himself for me;


It's Jesus' faith that brings life to me.


If one is a student of the word,


. . . and I am . . .


we can begin to see that our faith needs to be placed on the object of Jesus Christ, and on the focus of the cross. Jesus is glorified this way, and since it is the way that was first delivered to the saints, it only makes sense that we should be about our Father’s business, so to speak, and do things His way.

When we deviate from His prescribed order, we move into works and away from grace. Then all kinds of bad things can happen.

God bless


My faith has been placed on Jesus. Now His faith brings me life. Now God will sanctify me, and insure that I am blameless and without fault on the day Jesus comes back. What wonderful news! That is truly the Gospel - the Good News! It's not my responsibility to save myself, to keep myself saved, God has taken that upon Himself, and has given to us great and precious promises

- and what is a promise?

His self-commitment . . . to make sure this happens.

SacredCowBasher . . .

What if this IS God's way? What do these Scriptures say?

Is taking responsibility for maintaining one's righteous standing with God, taking responsibility for remaining His son, is that what moves us away from grace? Taking responsibility for making myself a better person? I don't know, it hasn't really worked before. But trusting Him entirely for it?

I love Jesus so much!

Much love!

Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:41 pm

This is suck an important discussion......the previous posts by brother SCB really did, imo, seem to imply that we have to have works that bring glory to the father before we can have any assurances that we really are saved, which is such a dangerous message to me.....(SCB, you of all people know I love you to death, BUT, this particular thinking on my part and teaching by others to me over my lifetime has brought me so much trouble in my walk with Christ).
I literally held my breath when I started reading all those lengthy posts and felt tempted to my old way of thinking, which was and is namely that if I don't live a perfect life (or as perfectly as I know I'm supposed to), my salvation may be up for grabs....and I will lose it.
After much of my own trials with this, I've truly come to believe that Christ's words mean what they say, which is that He and not us saves us, and not as a result of our works, but as a result of His.....His finished work on the cross.
Even though I am saved, I still (even after all these years) have some sin in my life.....new and old....and I truly do believe that the Lord will complete HIS good work in me, meaning (and I am living this) that He brings about circumstances in my life that force me to address this stuff when I don't of my own fruition, address it on my own. This stuff (*sin) is not going to cost me my salvation, but it may cost me some pain in this lifetime, or at least that's been my experience.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 pm

Hi Mark, Progressive sanctification is the progressive work that the Holy Spirit does in a born again believer’s life which basically begins after the ;honeymoon’ period, however ling that is. You know, the time when all is bliss and you feel like you can do no wrong.

It is the Holy Spirit’s job, or one of them, to lead us and guide us into all truth. That is truth about His word, but also truth about us. He may convict us of a particular thing and want to take it away. He may convict us of a particular sin, and when we see it, having never seen it before or noticed it, He has revealed it to us, and we are growing.

This will happen all of our life until we are raptured or pass away.


To both you and Lisa,

I think when I brought up responsibility, it seems to have set off some alarms that I am talking about works. All I’m saying is that we are reasonable for our salvation in the sense that we make our calling and election sure. There are admonitions throughout the new testament for the believer to be diligent, to redeem the time, etc.

Concerning our faith, we are told to fight the good fight of faith. It is our responsibility to do this. The Lord fights our balles and He has won every one, and He will win every one. We don’t fight the devil, we don’t fight the flesh, and we don’t fight the world. We fight the good fight of faith.

The bible admonishes us to check to see if we be in the faith. Every now and then we take communion. Why do we do this?
It is a reminder of Jesus’ death which He died on the cross. We eat His flesh and drink His blood. If we don’t do this, we have no part with Him. He is in us and we are in Him.

He asks us to do this because this is how important it is to keep our faith in Him and what He did. It is His prescribed order. He has made one way, there is no other way.

When we are sinners, we present ourself to Him, wherever that may be. If it is church, we generally go up to an altar and present ourselves there before Him. Usually, a pastor will lead us in a sinner’s prayer and we receive Jesus as Savior and Lord.

After we are saved and born again, we present ourselves to him every day, whether we have time to pray or not, It doesn’t take too long to submit ourselves to Him and acknowledge Him in all that we do.

We are free and we have liberty in Christ, but we don’t use it as an occasion of he flesh. We are given grace for obedience as is stated in Rom 1, and I think Rom 6. In a sense we can interchange ‘grace’ and Holy Spirit’. They are not exactly the same, but there is similarity. Grace is given to us through Jesus, and it is of God. It is God’s grace. It can be increased as in when He promotes us. The baptism of the Holy Spirit enables us for the ministry.

We are told in the bible not to quench the Spirit, nor grieve Him. There are times when we may be in the presence of a person, and we may feel strongly that we are to tell them a particular thing, or share Jesus with them. I know that I have quenched Him a number of times. Some times the devil will interfere with the situation.


Mark, you brought up 1 The. 5:23.24 Now may the God peace sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He will also bring it to pass.

This is God sanctifying us wholly. He brings us unto the image of His Son. It is a given that this will happen if we place our faith correctly. You see, in the early church, before Paul received revelation of what the new covenant actually meant, their faith was in Jesus only.

None of the apostles understood the meaning of the new covenant as it pertained to grace and how the Holy Spirit works. They preached the resurrection and power in His name, and God honored it.

When Paul’s teachings came after he received it in the dessert during the three years, it sort of stirred an uproar. James accused him of speaking against the law, and what seems to have happened was that James never did fully embrass the his message of grace. Some think that is why Jerusalem fell in 70 AD and the Christians were scattered.

When Peter stood up at the table of the gentiles, when other Jews came up to him, Paul called him out to his face, saying , that if we who are Jews have received Jesus by faith and have been justified by His grace, why then do we want these gentiles to live under the law?

the form of doctrine that was given to us is most precious. The church is built upon it along with the prophets, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. Why does it say in Jude, ‘the faith that was once delivered to the saints’.

If we get our faith wrong, or if you refer I say, if we get God’s faith wrong, we will get all messed up. I have said it many ways. I think the best thing to do is go to Galations and take a look at this epistle.

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:23 am

Hi SCB,

Thank you for your explanations! Yes, you may be right, the wording may have taken me down a different path than what you intended.

At the end of it all, if you believe that God will bring each of His children, who has trusted on Jesus and been born again, safely home to Him, then we are in agreement. Saving faith is the faith to be forgiven and reborn. We can have ups and downs affected sometimes greatly by our current confidence in God, or lack of it.

If your view is that having been born again, that our faith might fail, and our sonship lost, on this we would disagree.

One thing on this idea of "honeymooning" as a new believer, I've heard people mention it, I think it sounds beautiful! When I was first born again, I went emotionally flat, no affect. No honeymoon for Mark! But no matter! The time for joy comes to each new life. God makes everything beautiful as He works it in His timing.

I think there's no need for the honeymoon to end. There's nothing but joy and light and love in our Father and Savior Who loves us, and gives us all things.

And the maturing as a believer, growing in grace, brings us back into the honeymoon, except, actually, it's an entire life!

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:39 am

Just an aside . . . I would not myself be so bold as to consider "grace" and "Holy Spirit" in any wise interchangeable. Each has a separate and distinct meaning. Without holding to the meanings of words, how can we know what the book means?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby GodsStudent on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:47 am

SCB: :hugs2:
and please tell your beloved, bugtussle, hello and of course, I love her, too!!!
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:24 am

Hi SCB,

I have a different question for you, if I may.

In your signature, you include parenthetical comments (clearly marked, bless you!),

For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God.


You've noted that the first use of "law" means something different from the second use of "law". Why wouldn't these refer to the same law?

Isn't it that we were executed according to the law, which demanded our death, and therefore are now dead to it?

Much like when we execute a murderer. That person's debt to the state ends at death. The law has nothing more to do with them, other than the legal disposition of the body.

Much love!
Mark

Edited to add . . . silly me! Others dispose of bodies. So the law is plain flat done at death. So there can be no more condemnation.
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:50 pm

mark s wrote:Just an aside . . . I would not myself be so bold as to consider "grace" and "Holy Spirit" in any wise interchangeable. Each has a separate and distinct meaning. Without holding to the meanings of words, how can we know what the book means?

Much love!
Mark



Yeah, I know I was sort of stepping out there to say this, because I can’t really get into detailed meanings and I try to keep things brief. The grace from God and the Holy Spirit are definitely not the same. They don’t work the same role. I do think there is a connection between the two. Grace can be increased, and the Holy Spirit can fill a believer more. Is there overlapping here? I can’t definitively say that, but I suspect there is. The Holy Spirit is part of the trinity, He is God. Grace is given to us from God through our faith in Jesus Christ.

It is just something I have thought about for years.

It is amazing that God would share His Spirit with us and give us His grace and mercy, and eternal life!


On the signature: I honestly didn’t think it all the way through when I wrote that. the message of the cross for sanctification was new to me pretty much at the time, and the two laws that Paul mentions in Romans 8:2 was on my mind a lot.

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made free from the law of sin and death.

It is trie that we are law keepers in a sense because we are in Christ, and Jesus kept the whole law perfectly. But we did have to die first to receive new life. We died with Him so that we might be raised to newness of life.

For I through the law died to the law. Really, the only way I can see this is that the first law stated here is the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. This is how I died to the law.

I died with Christ, so for all intents and purposes I was dead. The proof is that we are not the same person. Old things have passed away, behold all things are made new. Being dead with Him is not a law, and established truth, yes, and a major one, but I don’t see it being a law. The word says, For I through the law.

But I think I see what you are saying, not that death is a law, but that the law killed me because I couldn’t keep it. So because I am dead through trying to keep the law, I am dead to the law. I don’t know, this doesn’t sound right.

On the second part, the second law mentioned, I think it refers to the law of Moses. However, it is also applicable to substitute the law of sin and death, I believe. The law of Moses is perfect and holy, but it always brought death because we could not keep it. Death is always associated with the law of Moses, spiritually speaking. Sins were forgiven at Passover every year through the shedding of the blood of Lambs, and faith in that sacrifice.

It was a good covenant for a special people of God. The law however could not produce righteousness. We would have to be righteous to be dead to the law. For if we love our neighbor, and firstly love God with all our hearts, if we act out of love, (and the only way one could do this is in Christ), then no law can be against us.

Of course we can not always act in love, because we fall short of God’s glory. but, praise God, we are in Christ, and He is perfect, so we are perfect as well!

Isn’t is great that the law has no hold on us?

God bless
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:39 pm

GodsStudent wrote:SCB: :hugs2:
and please tell your beloved, bugtussle, hello and of course, I love her, too!!!


I will Lisa. We love you, and God’s best to you and the family.
:hugs2: Back at ya!
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Keeping Alert on Wed Jul 04, 2018 4:27 pm

Dear SCB,

I was going back through this thread and I feel that most of what you mentioned is very correct indeed.

However, the theological truths of imputation of righteousness, being born again of God, being held in the palms of his hand, Jesus praying for us, and being able to present us spotless, etc, etc, leads me to hold on to the idea that we were eternally secure for heaven.

So I started thinking How do I reconcile what you wrote and what I believe to be clear teachings like John 3:16 where it says we are given eternal life?

Then a thought... I believe all that you mentioned for us to hold on to the faith, to redeem the time, to work out our faith in fear and trembling... these things are not exhortations so that we might not lose our salvation, but that we may be rewarded and not punished at the Bema Seat of God.

This Bema seat of God is for all... including us Christians. it is a little mentioned topic but it is there in the Bible. i would not begin to say I understand what the rewards and punishments are but I know that it does not involve the punishment of a born again Christian to hell. This person is what the bible says "saved by fire" in 1Cor 3 and other similar terms.

I think the eternal security of a believer is an undeniable theological truth based on what Christ had done for us ... and the need for us to walk properly before the Lord is also an undeniable theological truth because There is a Judgement (Bema) Seat of God that we have to face

Love in Christ,
KA
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

πατερ δοξασον σου το ονομα
Father, glorify thy name.

Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby sacredcowbasher on Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:23 pm

Hi KA, I think you have well thought out your conclusion, and to me you are a thinking man, and that is good, yes?

I am on the side that sees a number of passages in the word that tells me that one can lose their salvation. I do think however, that most of the reason why is bad leadership and wrong teaching.

Basically what I am trying to present is what happens to a believer when their faith is placed incorrectly. It is of the upmost importance to keep our faith in Christ and Him crucified.

We either live under grace or law. Law in the case of faith wrongly placed can be defined as follows;
Law is the practice of a rule, routine, or a discipline that the person believes will provide or maintain righteousness.

If we practice this as Christians, we live under law. If we live under law, the sin nature becomes our operating nature once again and we begin to sin more and more.

This is why it is important for all Christians to understand how to live. Yes, we live by faith, but what is our faith in?

Now because we may find ourselves under law, does that mean in and of itself that we are lost? No it doesn’t. If we keep on keeping on, one day we will come to the truth and be set free.

Is it possible for those in the situation of being under the law to lose their salvation? Yes it is. If they quit believing.

Our faith is the key to a victorious life. When it is correctly placed, it is the best case scenario. The devil will fight us wither way, most of time harder when we are on the right path, because we are a danger to his kingdom.
Gal 2: 14-19 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law ( the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ), died to the law ( the law of sin and death ) that I might live to God. Parenthetical remarks added are mine.
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:17 am

Hi SCB,

I'm curious, what 1 or 2 verses would you say present the teaching from God that rebirth is something that can be lost?

I'd like to keep this to 1 or 2 verses, or short passages, to be able to more fully explore those particular passages.

What I've found in the past is that without exception, every verse I've examined that is presented as teaching this understanding, I've never found them to actually be saying that.

Some of the often used passages even, in the end, say the opposite, that when you "have become partakers" with Christ, it's forever, and whether or not you "continue to the end" shows, not determines, your status.

Much love!
mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Resurrection Torchlight on Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:45 am

so here are some things that I see regarding this subject (don't mean to derail things)

When I look at the parable of the sower, the seed is planted in various kinds of soil, and only one kind of soil produces fruit.

The kinds of soil represent the various responses to the seed (the word of God) being planted in one's life. The response to hearing God's word.

According to what I understand from 2 Peter , if we are truly saved we will be fruitful. Therefore logic would dictate if we are not fruitful we cannot be truly saved which according to Peter means one is either blind or shortsighted.

In the parable of the sower you have the seed that falls by the side of the road, that seed is carried off by birds, there is no germination, that person is clearly not saved by the gospel. This would relate to the "blind" person of 2 Peter. Then there are the other 2 soils that don't produce fruit, One that falls among the rocks that starts out with germination and a shoot that starts to grow, but lack of water and heat of the sun withers it. This person responds to God's word with joy, but fall away when persecuted. The other grows for a bit among the thorns and weeds, this one actually grows into a sapling but is choked out by weeds. This person hears the word of God but falls away when tempted. Neither of these soils nourish the plant to the point that it produces fruit. These would relate to those who are "shortsighted" in 2 Peter, having forgotten that they were cleansed from their sins . The only one that does produce fruit is the seed planted in good soil, in other words the person who has been justified. How else could it be "good". This is the one who hears and understands, whereas the others did not understand?

It is my opinion that those that begin to grow and then fall away, were not truly saved to begin with. The produce of God's word implated is never realized because they were never truly justified. If they were then the natural byproduct of the word of God would be fruitfulness. Growth of the divine nature within oneself. They were forgetful hearers.

James 1:21–25
21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
25 But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.


Matthew 7:24–27
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 “And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 “The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


Those who act on God's word unto salvation are justified, and those who are justified are sanctified and also glorified.

Does this make sense to anyone else but me? Or am I out there in left field????

I guess my point in all this is to say that I do not believe that one who is born again can lose their salvation. But there are those who may appear to be born again and they may even believe themselves to be, but they have no firm root of faith to begin with, no understanding of what that really means and easily fall away when pressured or tempted by the world. To us it might appear that they have lost their salvation, but the reality is that they never had it to begin with.

RT
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:16 pm

Hi RT,

One thing to mention, Peter wrote that those who do not possess these things have become nearsighted to to the point of blindness, having forgotten that they were cleansed of their past sins. Myself, I think this is referring to their forgetting that they have been forgiven, and instead, they act like the unbelievers. But not that they are not saved. Just not growing/producing fruit.

But yes, I'm right there in left field with you. If we are saved we will produce fruit, and if we do not, we may be taken home early.

And if we are truly saved, we will remain faithful to the end, and the persecutions which whither the untrue prove the true.

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby Jay Ross on Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:46 pm

RT, the parable of the sower should also be considered in light of some Old Testament Passages. Ezekiel 47:1-12 is one passage that springs to mind as a parallel to the Parable of the Sower. This prophecy spans four time periods from the time of the dedication of Solomon's temple up to the renewing of the earth. How the river of life starts off as a trickle from under the threshold of the temple and flows eastwards towards the river Jordan and the Dead Sea which the river of life flows into after around 4,000 years to bring renewal/refurbishment to the land.

The good soil is where God Promised to bring Israel into when he redeems them from the visitation of their iniquities upon their children and their children's children where He will teach them on the "mountain" of Israel that has come down from heaven and Grown into the largest mountain on the face of the earth.

At present I see that the seed is falling amongst thistles, i.e. the cares of the world, and the thistles are drawing out the nutrient from the soil that the seed needs to grow and the thistles are growing taller such that they are blocking out the light by which the seed is able to grow and mature such that the germinated seed grows for a little while but then withers and dies. The parable of the sower tells of the hardships that comes our way in our lives and also during the unfolding timeline as the sower starts on his journey to cast out the seed over the ground. For the seed to germinate, it needs water and nutrients, initially from the seed itself and then from the nutrients in the soil/ground where it is resting and finally it needs light to provide the energy by which it will grow into a mature plant. If the germinated seed plant of the seed is denied water or nutrients or light, then it will wither and die and not bring any increase in the yield of the field/ground.

Unless we become light, a spring of flowing water and the nutrients of the word for the world, then the seeds of the sower will not germinate, grow and in maturity bringing forth the yield of the field. In the Parable of the Talents and the Mina, we are told that Satan wants the increase of the yield from the field, even though He did not plant the seed or tendered to the crop when he returns. This is the great falling away at the end of the ages from among the saints at that time.

Ezekiel 18 tells us that a righteous man if he sins will become destined for the Second death unless he repents of his sins. This same chapter also tells us that if an unrighteous man repents of his sins, then he will live and not die the Second Death.

In Luke 14, we are told: -

Luke 14:25-27: - 25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

What are we prepared to do to take up our own cross to follow after Jesus? Are we prepared to put our lives on the line for what we believe in. Are we prepared to be in the right place at the right time with the right application of the word to be considered to be one of Christ's workers in the filed so that the yeild can be brought into the barn at the appointed time.

I think that many people put themselves on the pathway or in the rocky ground or among the thristles and as such we tend to fail in Christ's calling on our lives to be His disciples and we fall away from His presences wondering how it could possibly happen to us "righteous" souls.

Shalom
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Re: Will NAR converge with evangelical churches? Holly

Postby mark s on Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:13 pm

So then, Jay, are you saying that the born again can die again?

Much love!
Mark
ειπεν αυτη ο ιησους εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη ο πιστευων εις εμε καν αποθανη ζησεται
. . . saying to her Jesus, I AM the resurrection and the life, the one believing into Me even dying shall live . . .
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