Timeline list

[Keeping Alert]

Regarding your post on the 2 witness, I agree with you 100% Mr Mailman and you sure wrote it in so much better style than I could. Thanks!

Blessings,
KA

[NewlyBorninChrist]

Didn't Lazarus die twice?

YBIC
Rob

Hmmm...yeah....good one...

Overcomer - it's really going to be a remarkable time, both before and after the wrath...not sure if I want to be in the game or have a courtside seat...

nike

nike was that sarcasm as in yeah right whatever... or was that a sincere comment as in yeah your right he did die twice?

YBIC
Rob

[nike]

Totally sincere...I can remember thinking about Lazarus, but had totally forgotten he died twice...sorry for the confusion...

[NewlyBorninChrist]

lol no problem thanks for clarifying. So what are your thoughts on Lazarus dieing twice? Does that open up the possibility of the 2 witnesses being men who had already died?



YBIC
Rob

[nike]

Okay, gang,

Let's recap a minute - here's what we have discussed, set in the timeline:

sacrifice on Temple Mount (this has to happen so that the AofD can put a stop to it)

Restrainer removed - we all (involved in the discussion) agree this is an angelic (most likely Michael) restraint on Satan's activities that will be lifted, allowing him through governmental means to go full force against the children of God

Desecration of Temple - AofD - witnesses begin witnessing - Great Tribulation begins - these are concurrent actions - still some discussion on who they witnesses will be but most think they will be Elijah and Moses - some discussion about timeframe, but most agree their 1260 days of ministry are a reference to the second half of the 70th week

Rapture - yea!

Gog and Magog supernatural destruction is also most likely at Armageddon, but definitely within the wrath of God - yes? Do most of us agree?

Millennium

Small Gog and Magog uprising at the end of the MIllennium


One observation, a few more events and one more question:

If you look at our basic timeline and definitions, it is not only in stark contrast with the pre-trib rapture point, but also with the rest of their timeline and definitions. For example, obviously the rapture timing would be different, most put the Gog and Magog war as what begins the 70th week, the restrainer is the Holy Spirit to most pt-ers, not sure if there is a difference in their minds between the Great Tribulation and the "tribulation" because it's all a part of the wrath of God, I haven't seen concensus on the witnesses many put them at the beginning and martyred at the mid-point. I guess my observation is that our battle is not just the sixth seal rapture...

Events to add to our timeline:

New Jerusalem attaches to the earth
New heavens and new earth created
Great White throne judgment
Bema seat judgment
Wedding feast


And the question - where are raptured believers during the Millennium?

And fine, you can use up to 30 words to answer the question...

nike

[nike]

Rob,

I guess it takes off the limitation in my mind...Orange gave a good discourse on the Moses/Elijah theory...I wish we had more information on them, but apparently we have exactly as much as we need!

nike

[revelation12eleven]

And the question - where are raptured believers during the Millennium?

Orange, where are youuuu?!!!!

Oh, this is Saturday. He must be getting ready for his pool party. I hope someone brings potato salad...

[Truthinlove]

I do love potato salad!

[revelation12eleven]

I think another question is, what are the raptured believers doing during the Millennium?...where they are obviously will help to answer that question...

Okay, I'm going to throw out a few thoughts...

1 Th. 4:17 says that from the catching away of the saints at the Lord's coming, we shall always be with the Lord. Isaiah 24:23 says - “Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mt. Zion and in Jerusalem…” This places the Lord on the earth, reigning, during the Millennium. Mt. 19:28 seems to put the twelve on the earth during the Millennium – “And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." The twelve are then reigning on the earth...

So where does that leave the rest of us and what are we doing? It seems at least we would also be on the earth during the Millennium. I will make my timeline look like this, using the events that Nike gave us...

sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed
desecration of temple
Great Tribulation begins
appearance of 2 witnesses
Rapture
Bema seat judgment
wrath of God begins
Gog and Magog war
Armageddon
Millennium
Great White throne judgment
New heavens and new earth created
New Jerusalem attaches to the earth

To be honest, I'm having trouble with where to place the wedding feast...Revelation 19 gives the invitation before the description of Armageddon...so is it during the wrath? Is it during the Millennium? If Christ is reigning on the earth during the Millennium and we shall always be with the Lord, that seems to put us on the earth as well...what are we doing?

Orange, are you finished with your potato salad yet?

[revelation12eleven]

Looking for anyone else's thoughts too, of course!

[The Orange Mailman]

Overcomer, I appreciate the potato salad concern that you have. Don't worry, my friend Mary makes a great potato salad with all the stuff I like. She leaves the leftovers for me too.

sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed (heavenly forces initiates earthly actions)
desecration of temple = abomination of desolation = sacrifices taken away
Great Tribulation begins
appearance of 2 witnesses
Rapture
wrath of God begins
Gog and Magog war (begins with sixth bowl)
Armageddon (ends Gog/Magog with seventh bowl)
New Heavens and New Earth (renewed heavens and renewed earth)
New Jerusalem attaches to the earth (attaches? How about descends to earth?)
Millenium begins
Bema seat judgment (here on earth per Romans 14:11-12 use of Isaiah 45:23)
Wedding feast begins and continues throughout Millennium
Millennium Ends
Gog and Magog war (again)
Great White throne judgment
Heaven and earth flee away
New heavens and new earth created ???

Uh-oh, gotta go. Potato Salad just got here.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[revelation12eleven]

I like your timeline better than mine Orange. I'll go with yours...

(Just remember to refrigerate the leftovers real soon...)

[nike]

Okay, how about some scriptural support for the New Heavens and New Earth being renewed before the Millennial kingdom? I guess I am assuming you are putting Rev. 21 as part of the Millennium because it also contains the New Jerusalem. If the NH and NE and NJ are a part of the millennium, how can there be no more tears or pain or mourning (Rev. 21:4) but still death and rebellion (Rev. 20:8,9)? And why are the events of Rev. 20 (Satan bound, martyred, beheaded saints resurrected and reigning with Christ, rebellion - Gog and Magog again, destruction by fire of rebellion, Satan thrown into the lake of fire, and the Great White throne judgment) before chapter 21 where John sees the new heavens and new earth, and the New Jerusalem descending from heaven if they actually happen after 21?

[revelation12eleven]

Orange/Nike,

I too want to put some kind of renewal for the heavens and earth right after the wrath is complete. It's because of what Peter wrote in his second letter...2: 10, 12 - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up...looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!" At this point is where I would put a renewal of some sort. Then verse 13 says, "But according to His promise we are looking for a new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." Do you see a break Orange, between v. 12 and 13? Righteousness won't completely dwell during the Millennium because we have the uprising at the end of the Millennium. The heavens and earth go through some kind of a renewal after the wrath but before the Mil. Then after the GWTJ, the renewed heavens and earth pass away and new ones are created??? Like Nike Orange, I would like to know why you place the NJ on the earth before the Mil begins. According to Rev. 21 I see it "attaching" after the GWTJ which falls after the Mil. (I think Nike likes to have fun with words sometimes...) I also would like to know how you come to the conclusion that the wedding feast begins and continues throughout the Mil. I know this is Nike's thread, but it's ok with me if you use more than 30 words if it is necessary for your explanation...

[nike]

Here's a good explanation for Elijah being one of the witnesses - very similar to Orange's post:


http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2009/07/ ... of_the.php

[revelation12eleven]

For a bit of clarification, I don't see the new heavens and new earth created until after the Millennium. The wrath is going to devastate the earth. I think it is possible that God could intervene supernaturally and speed up "healing" the earth in someway after His wrath. We learned from Mt. St. Helens, which I live not too far from, that the surrounding land restored very quickly from the devastation of her eruption in May of 1980. It's just been 29 years since that event and it is amazing how the landscape has reformed. Actually, when I think about it, perhaps God doesn't intervene other than bringing in rain...then of course we know He sends birds to clean-up at Armageddon...

It makes the most sense to have the New Jerusalem therefore, descend after the old heavens and earth flee away and the new heavens and earth are created...after the Millennium...which appears to be the order of things in Rev. 21...

[The Orange Mailman]

I personally think there are multiple small "r" restrainers just as there are multiple small "a" antichrists. Government, Angels, Conscience, Lack of opportunity, fear of men, laziness, etc. would all be restrainers.

WallDoctor

Hey WallDoctor, what about parents? Are they restrainers?

[The Orange Mailman]

And the question - where are raptured believers during the Millennium?

And fine, you can use up to 30 words to answer the question...

Judging the world & angels.

I Cor. 6:2-3

Functioning like pillars in the temple & New Jerusalem

Rev. 3:12

Ruling over nations & cities

Rev. 2:26, Luke 19:16

Sitting on thrones like priests and kings

Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:4-6

With Christ in glory

Colossians 3:4

Here on earth

Matthew 5:5

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[The Orange Mailman]

Like Nike Orange, I would like to know why you place the NJ on the earth before the Mil begins. According to Rev. 21 I see it "attaching" after the GWTJ which falls after the Mil. (I think Nike likes to have fun with words sometimes...) I also would like to know how you come to the conclusion that the wedding feast begins and continues throughout the Mil. I know this is Nike's thread, but it's ok with me if you use more than 30 words if it is necessary for your explanation...

Hey Overcomer-

Let's start with Isaiah 65-66. No wait, let's start with Psalm 102. Wait, let's start with the garden of Eden.

Okay, let's just start with Isaiah 65-66. New heavens and new earth will be created (65:17) along with a new Jerusalem (65:18). Death will be restricted but not eliminated as people will live longer but still die. Sinners will have their lives cut short (65:20). Those who belong to the people of God will have their lives like the life of a tree, long enjoying the work of their hands (65:22). Animals will live at peace with each other (65:25 which parallels 11:6-9) taking us back to Eden like conditions.

In the midst of this description of the new heavens and new earth, God reminds His people that they really cannot build Him a resting place (66:1-2). With heaven for a throne and the earth for a footstool, what more could He want from us? What the LORD really desires is for someone to be humble, contrite, and to tremble at His word.

The people of the earth are called to rejoice with (alongside) this new Jerusalem (66:10). She will have a glorious abundance from which many may drink deeply from (66:11). The LORD will extend peace to Jerusalem like a river as she functions like a mother to the nations of the earth (66:12-13). Cause and effect in 66:14-16. Effect: Rejoicing and flourishing because the hand of the LORD will be known to His servants. Cause: The LORD will show His indignation against His enemies with fire, fury, and the sword. Individual Israelites scattered throughout the Gentile nations will be brought to the holy mountain as a type of living sacrifice to the LORD (66:20). Of these the LORD will take many for priests (66:21).

The new heavens and new earth which the LORD will create will remain before Him, just like the offspring of Israel will remain before Him (66:22). It seems like the offspring of Israel regathered at this time are living under the new heavens and on the new earth since they are set forth in the same context. New moons and sabbaths are observed within the nation of Israel as the entire world comes to worship before the LORD (66:23). There has been a judgement which has some type of lasting effect whereby people can view the burning carcases (66:24).

The new heavens and new earth, based on an examination of Isaiah 65-66, will be fulfilled in the Messianic Kingdom. It seems like the Messianic Kingdom, the new heavens, the new earth, and this new Jerusalem will begin as the LORD comes in judgement. This will be the beginning of God's plan for Israel to become a blessing to all nations, Isaiah 2:2-4. This will not be the entire fulfillment, but one step toward the ultimate goal. This will also be a step in redeeming earth as a whole according to the Seed Promise (Gen. 3:15) in light of the creation mandate (Gen. 1:28).

Now let's come to the NT. II Peter 3, as you have already pointed out, seems to occur in conjunction with the fiery judgement connected to the coming of the LORD. They ask (II Peter 3:4), "Where is the promise of His coming?" Peter explains that in the days of Noah there was a wicked generation who thought the same thing (II Peter 3:5). That wicked generation was ignorant that the earth they were standing on and the heavens they lived under were slated for judgement by flood (II Peter 3:6). Noah was faithful, moved with fear, condemned the old earth, and inherited the new earth (Heb. 11:7). The same earth that we stand on is also slated for judgement by fire at the coming of the LORD (II Peter 3:7).

The Day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night in conjunction with the coming of the LORD, the judgement by fire, and the destruction of the present heavens and earth (II Peter 3:10). Because of this, we should have a holy conduct since we know that this fiery judgement will come in such a fashion (II Peter 3:11). We look for this judgement to occur during the Day of the LORD/Day of God when the heavens will be on fire and the elements of the earth will melt with such fervent heat (II Peter 3:12). We look according to His promise [contained in Isaiah 65-66] for that new heavens and new earth where righteousness will dwell (II Peter 3:13).

The new heavens and new earth of II Peter 3 are the same new heavens and new earth of Isaiah 65-66. They are said to begin with the coming of the LORD, with the Day of the LORD, and when a fiery judgement is enacted upon the current citizens of this present earth. Those in the church will live in the new heavens and new earth which will be a place of righteousness.

Now for Revelation. Revelation 20 briefly glimpses ahead to the period in time following the Millennium and following the little season to explain the devil’s ultimate doom. Then the emphasis shifts back to the glory of the LORD Jesus at His coming, only this time the focus is on the glory of the bride who comes with the LORD Jesus. The New Jerusalem is the bride of Messiah having the identity of the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles both engraved within her. It will be Israel and the church in one holy union. At this time God will personally be with His people in an ongoing way, Rev. 21:3, John 14:1-3, Ezekiel 37:27, 36:28, Jeremiah 31:33, Hosea 2:23.

From Revelation 21:9-22:5 is a description of the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will be a city here on the earth. This description is not a description of heaven. It is not a description of the new heavens and new earth. It is a description of one city in relationship to the other nations which will exist here on earth at that time.

Revelation 21:24 speaks of certain nations which are saved and walk in the light of the New Jerusalem. The kings of these saved nations will bring their glory and honor to the New Jerusalem (21:26). While some nations may send envoys to the New Jerusalem, the prohibition is that nothing sinful may ever enter into the city (21:27). The leaves of the tree of life are for the purpose that some nations may receive healing (22:2). Within this city there will be no night since God’s light shines continually (22:5). For those living outside the city, they may be allowed at some point to enter the city and partake of the tree of life, but only if they obey (22:14). Outside the city there will still be many sinful people (22:15).

So when we read about the New Jerusalem, we are reading about a city here on earth from which Messiah rules, in which the church lives with God, from which Israel is governed, and from which the nations of the earth receive their light. As far as the wedding feast, let’s start with Revelation 19:7-9. No wait, let’s start with Luke 22:15-20. No, how about Luke 13:24-30 with Matthew 25:1-13. Wait, I think we’ll have to go back to Isaiah 25:6, 49:18, 54:1-9. Errr… Garden of Eden…. ill… maybe another day.

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[nike]

Wow - thank you, Mr. Mailman, that was a great, informative post. It has been a while since I went back to Isaiah and read it and I appreciate the way you brought it all to bear with our discussion.

If I were to summarize, is it accurate for me to say that only within the walls of the New Jerusalem will there be no more tears, mourning or death? Outside of the walls during the Millennium there is still sin and wickedness, obviously death of both believers and unbeliever, right? So is it your understanding that pre-rapture believers (those in all of history who are children of God) live within the city walls (except for the ruling martyrs and disciples)? And the people who live without and are inhabiting the world are post-rapture believers and their unbelieving and believing offspring?

Or is it possible that the new Jerusalem descends at the end of the millennium? I am struggling grasping the concept that the NJ heralds the end of the curse (22:3) and yet this condition is limited to the city walls...

By the way, I appreciate your comparing scripture with scripture...I'll bet you do well with puzzles, too!

nike

[revelation12eleven]

Ok Orange, it is going to take me about a week to digest everything you said and look up all the scriptures you posted. That was a great post! I'm looking forward to your Millennium/wedding feast post as well. Thanks for taking the time to write everything out.

Hope your pool party went well, and that Mary made so much potato salad that there was lots of left overs for you. By the way, I read your "Postal Decline" post at your blog and learned you are just up the road from Nike's church. You really should go and hear her husband preach next month...you won't be disappointed...and you could meet Slick and Walldoctor too...how cool would that be?...

[revelation12eleven]

I think you should expound a bit more on your answers to Nike on where we are during the Millennium, and what we are doing...and I'm quite anxious to understand how we are doing all that AND enjoying a wedding feast at the same time!

[revelation12eleven]

Orange,

You see the wedding feast taking place in the NJ, which you understand to be on the earth, during the Millennium, right? It is starting to make sense to me...how believers could be doing all those things you listed plus enjoying the wedding feast...and we would always be with the Lord! This is exciting and mind-boggling at the same time...Wow! Please do expound more when you have some time...

[Pretzelogical]

1. What is the "Restrainer" currently restraining (in your opinion or God's if you can support it with scripture)?
The apostasy comes first. What is restraining the apostasy? The believers who faithfully proclaim truth.

From http://expressright.com/apostasy.aspx

Paul said, "the apostasy comes first and then the man of lawlessness..."
He did not then turn around and say, "the Restrainer gets removed first and then the man of lawlessness..."

We cannot have it both ways. He either said:
Apostasy results in the rise of the man of lawlessness...
[or]
Removal of the Restrainer results in the rise of the man of lawlessness....

2. Who are the 2 witnesses witnessing to and why wouldn't they be raptured at the 6th seal with all believers? (This is assuming that your answers of the two witnesses beginning their ministry at the mid-point is right...)
The two witnesses are the faithful Jewish Churches of Symrna and Philadelphia, two lampstands that Jesus does not reprove. They are faithful witnesses, the two olive trees, representing the kingly and priestly offices.

Revelation chronology chart that looks accurate to my understanding of the scriptures:
http://expressright.com/chrono.aspx

[rizen]

appearance of 2 witnesses
Armageddon
wrath of God begins
sacrifices on the temple mount
Restrainer removed
Gog and Magog war
Great Tribulation begins
desecration of temple
Rapture
Millenium

If the watchmen are told to immediately flee into the wilderness once they know who the Antichrist is, then that must be where the two witnesses who have the oil (Zech. 4:12) are as well. It just doesn't make sense to know who the Antichrist is and then wait around for the two witnesses. The appearance of the two witnesses and revealing of Antichrist seems to happen simultaneously.

1. Two witnesses (live 1260 days) - Antichrist revealed (Intra 1st half of 70th Week [probably late])
2. Restrainer removed - Antichrist healed (continues 1260 days) - Great Tribulation begins (at the same time)
3. Two Witnesses killed (2nd woe concludes with earthquake that occurs within hour following their resurrection)
4. Still confused at 6th Trumpet (The "Come Up Hither" the 2 witnesses hear in Rev. 11:12 appears to be the same 'talking trump' that John hears in Rev. 4:1?) Oy. Do we hear it too? If so, 6th trump rapture, if not...
5. 7th trumpet Rapture (Great Tribulation cut short)
6. God's wrath begins with 3rd woe Destruction of Mystery Babylon (Rev. 18:20). Ten kings who help destroy it (Rev. 17:16) cannot be killed until Armageddon. (Rev. 17:12-14)
7. Seven vials "poured out" on desolate (Dan. 9:27)
8. Gog-Magog - Armageddon
9. Millenium

[Finaldash]

As far as the wedding feast, let’s start with Revelation 19:7-9. No wait, let’s start with Luke 22:15-20. No, how about Luke 13:24-30 with Matthew 25:1-13. Wait, I think we’ll have to go back to Isaiah 25:6, 49:18, 54:1-9. Errr… Garden of Eden…. ill… maybe another day.

Have fun and stay busy – Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

I'm still waiting and excited for this one.

[The Orange Mailman]

Hey Final Dash-

I appreciate that you are excited about that post, but to be honest, it's not even on the docket right now. I've too many other ideas dominating my time. Maybe if someone posts some really bad heresy I would be motivated to straighten them out, but until then, the scope of what I would do is too exhaustive and exhausting to do in a post here. But to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, you can read my latest response to Mark S. on "the ones coming out of the great tribulation" thread in the debate section. I posted that response on July 25th if you haven't read it. The portion which pertains to this subject is the Gentile inclusion toward the end of the post. I cite some passages in Isaiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel to show that Gentile inclusion in the marriage of the LORD was always presented right alongside Israel as the future bride.

On a related note, I may do a series on my blog which has "Matthew the Publican and His Gospel" by Bingham as an introduction. Bingham delves into how Matthew, the scandalous tax-collector-turned-Christian really poked Judaism in the eye with many of the things contained in his gospel. Bingham is responding to the "Matthew is only for the Jews" argument". That Matthew 12 citation of Isaiah 42 is one of the things that I believe Matthew put in there to show his own countrymen their unworthiness of the Messianic Kingdom.

Hey, if you have some time, maybe you could write it for me.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[Mr Baldy]

Great Topic! Thought I'd bring it up again........

1) Michael stands up (Restrainer)
2) Wars; earthquakes; famines
3)Apostasy; False Prophets arise
4)Sacrifices commence
5)Sacrifices are ceased
6) AOD stands in the Holy Place
7)Great Tribulation begins
8) Two Witnesses appear
9) Rapture
10) Wrath of God begins
11) Gog Magog war
12) Armageddon
13) Return of Chirst
14) Bema Seat Judgement
15) Millennial Reign
16) Gog Magog war with the Body of Christ; and the Offspring of Children born during the Millennial Reign
17) Great White Throne Judgement
18)Eternal Kingdom

[nike]

Hey, Prewrathers,

Quick question for you all - are any of you looking for a literal Temple (or Tabernacle) to be on the Temple Mount before the mid-point of the seventieth week and do any of you believe that Babylon will be rebuilt...literally? There are so many views floating around out there, I am just curious where you stand...

I personally am looking for both. Not looking for a fight, I'm just curious...

Nike

[Finaldash]

I am not really sure anymore Nike, but I'm just hoping you're wrong. It might take awhile for both to come out!!

[nike]

Yeah, I know what you are saying, but lately it feels like many are turning away from literal interpretations in order to speed things up...I do think things could happen quickly, but not as fast as most of us want. I'm trying to stick with the basics, I guess...

[The Orange Mailman]

Heya Nike-

I believe there will be a literal temple in Jerusalem before Christ returns. That literal temple will be what the man of sin commits the abomination of desolation in. There will also be a literal temple here on earth during the millennium. I have been blogging about it lately. BTW, I'm doing most of my blogging back at my old blog. I know I thought that the new blog would be where it's happening, but it just ain't happening. My old blog gets so many more hits because of the history.

http://theorangemailmanmyblog.wordpress.com/

I think there is going to be a continuity between the temple that is desecrated during Daniel's 70th week and the millennial temple. The idea of a 7-8 day purification process to cleanse this temple at the end of Daniel's 70th week from the abomination of desolation is what I think will lead into the millennial period.

This is another reason why I believe we are still 20 years out or so. But it's just an opinion.

Have fun and stay busy - Luke 19:13

-The Orange Mailman

[rizen]

Quick question for you all - are any of you looking for a literal Temple (or Tabernacle) to be on the Temple Mount before the mid-point of the seventieth week

Hello Nike,

From Orange's blog:

What will be the purpose of these animal sacrifices? Let me ask this, what was the purpose of the animal sacrifices during the days of Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Zerubbabel, and the apostle Paul? Was it not to point to Christ? Could future sacrifices also point to Christ? Yes they could. Sometimes rituals can point both backward to a past event and forward to a future event. The passover pointed backward to deliverance for the nation of Israel and forward to the perfect sacrifice of the Messiah, Exodus 13:14-15, I Corinthians 5:7. The LORD’s supper points backward to the cross and forward to the coming of Christ and His kingdom in power and glory, Matthew 26:26-29, I Corinthians 11:26. Future sacrifices could point back to Christ and the cross as memorials, or back to the deliverance of Israel from all her enemies and forward to a final deliverance from the last enemy, death, note that the day of atonement has no visible new testament correlation. Animal sacrifices prescribed in the law never forgave sins, Hebrews 10:4, and future animal sacrifices in Ezekiel’s temple will never forgive sins either; only the blood of Jesus Christ can forgive sins, I Peter 1:18-20.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago, when I realized there would be sacrifices taking place in a Millennial temple, that I had to reconsider my "there will be no rebuilt temple" viewpoint. So, yeah, I do think there will be a rebuilt temple, but I think if the Antichrist were to enter and desecrate it, this would be the absolute final warning to believers he is the Antichrist. And as Jacob Prasch teaches, it will only be a reflection of the ultimate desecration that has already occurred in the church, so in a sense the abomination of desolation is incipiently underway now.

...do any of you believe that Babylon will be rebuilt...literally?

I've flip-flopped a couple of times on the whole Babylon-Rome thing. This would be so much easier to understand if we knew who the seven kings of Rev. 17:10 were. I'm convinced that interpretation holds the key, but even then it could be both. As far as things stand today, I'll go with Rome: European capital, coastal city, headquarters of U.N. Food Bank, Vatican...etc. There's certainly a nice framework in place there at Rome if the 70th Week were to begin somewhat soon.

If Matthew 24:20 is trying to tell us the great tribulation begins on a Sabbath day in Hanukkah, as it did in 167 B.C. with Epiphanes, the next time this happens is in the year 2026. So it looks like we're still a little ways off.

[nike]

I just finished a book by Dan Hayden called "Iraq: In the Crosshairs" and he gives a good defense for a literal Babylon, tracing the history of Babylon as the origin and home of false religion. I haven't heard many hold to a literal Babylon lately, so I thought I'd throw it out there. I've always thought it would be rebuilt, so it was encouraging to read this book.

I think that we want the return of Jesus to come, we long for it, and in doing so, we are willing to compromise on how we interpret scripture in order to make it happen - not that we will make it happen, but it would really put a damper on things if we need a literal Temple and a literal Babylon. I know that Orange recently told a friend of mine he thought we were at least 20 years out and I was curious if that was based on the Temple only or if Babylon was included.

Bottom line, lately I've been encouraging my friends who think our U.S. economic struggles are a sign of the times (as if our financial and moral failing is a sign of Christ's return) that we're in for a long haul. It's funny to me how any hardship in America equates to the end of the world in American believer's minds. I know, not everyone believes this, but many, many do. Well, America most likely will go through a lot of changes before the return of Christ, all changes that will make life more difficult for our citizens and for believers specifically. I think we need to prepare as such.

Thanks for responding, Orange, Rizen and Finaldash!

[Birdwatcher]

Nike,

I just finished a book by Dan Hayden called "Iraq: In the Crosshairs" and he gives a good defense for a literal Babylon, tracing the history of Babylon as the origin and home of false religion. I haven't heard many hold to a literal Babylon lately, so I thought I'd throw it out there. I've always thought it would be rebuilt, so it was encouraging to read this book.

I recently watched a DVD in which Joel Rosenberg said he believes the city of Babylon will be rebuilt and be a great center of trade. It sounded like his host, Kay Arthur of Precept Ministries, also held to that view.

This looks like a really cool thread. I'm a bit late on the uptake, but look forward to reading it (and probably posting my own ordered list of End Time events here).

For the Kingdom,

Mo

[Birdwatcher]

Hi, Prewrathers!

I hope you're all up for another post on the original topic of this thread. Sequencing the events has always been an interest of mine.

sacrifices on the temple mount begin
appearance of 2 witnesses
Restrainer removed
desecration of temple
Great Tribulation begins
Rapture
wrath of God begins = Gog's 2nd attack = Great Winepress = 1st Trumpet
Bema seat judgment
Gog's 3rd attack = Armageddon (AC is now Gog's ally)
New Heavens and New Earth (heaven and earth renewed)
New Jerusalem attaches to the Earth
Millennium
Satan and a different Gog attack New Jerusalem
Great White Throne judgment

For the Kingdom,

Mo the Birdwatcher

[revelation12eleven]

Hi Mo,

I have changed my position. I now see the new heavens, new earth, and new Jerusalem occurring at the beginning of the millennium. I'm curious about something. You have a 2nd and 3rd attack by Gog in your timeline. Is there a 1st that you would put somewhere? Actually, your timeline makes a whole lot of sense to me.

I do think America is in for some big changes before Christ's return. I think it is going to get pretty rough before we see anything on the timelines that we have thrown out, and it could be awhile, years...

[Birdwatcher]

Hi Overcomer!

I have changed my position. I now see the new heavens, new earth, and new Jerusalem occurring at the beginning of the millennium.

Change is good. Except when it involves my friends leaving my department, like what happened this week.

I'm curious about something. You have a 2nd and 3rd attack by Gog in your timeline. Is there a 1st that you would put somewhere? Actually, your timeline makes a whole lot of sense to me.

Thank you! Yes, there's a 1st attack by Gog from Magog. Put it somewhere? Aye, there's the rub! If only I knew ...

It's got to come before the Midpoint, but beyond that I'm not sure just where to put it. Maybe where some of our pre-trib friends try to lump the whole of Ezekiel 38-39 -- that is, most any day now. Or maybe during the 1st half of the 70th Week. (Or maybe we're already in the 70th week.)

I do think America is in for some big changes before Christ's return. I think it is going to get pretty rough before we see anything on the timelines that we have thrown out, and it could be awhile, years...

Yes, I think you're right that we're in for some tough times. Not sure that we won't see any prophesied events transpire soon, just not the ones on this list. Maybe we should compile a list of "might happen at any time" events. Like the destruction of Damascus, maybe? And Gog's 1st attack? What else?

For the Kingdom,

Mo

[revelation12eleven]

Sorry to hear about your friends. So, my next question would be, what scriptures do you go to for the attacks by Gog? 1st, 2nd, 3rd... Rev. 20:7-9 would of course be the different Gog attack, on the new Jerusalem, right? I know Orange views Ez. 38:1-7 and 39 as premillennial, and 38:8-23 as post-millennial. He says 38:8-23 lines up flawlessly with Rev. 20:7-9. Syria sure is a boiling pot, these days...

[Birdwatcher]

So, my next question would be, what scriptures do you go to for the attacks by Gog? 1st, 2nd, 3rd...

1st attack = Ezek. 38:1-16
2nd attack = Ezek. 38:17-23, Rev. 8:7, Is. 29:1-7, Zech. 12:1-13:1, and other passages
3rd attack = Ezek. 39, Rev. 19:17-21

Rev. 20:7-9 would of course be the different Gog attack, on the new Jerusalem, right? I know Orange views Ez. 38:1-7 and 39 as premillennial, and 38:8-23 as post-millennial. He says 38:8-23 lines up flawlessly with Rev. 20:7-9. Syria sure is a boiling pot, these days...

Orange has some great ideas. We disagree on part of Ezekiel 38, though.

Yes, Rev. 20:7-9 is the end-of-millennium attack by a different Gog. I have just recently revised my view to see it as an attack on the New Jerusalem, based on an intriguing new prewrath book by Janet Willis, What On Earth Is Heaven Like?

For the Kingdom,

Mo

[revelation12eleven]

Thanks, I'll be digging into those passages - and you and Nike have given me two books that I need to read!