Pre-Wrath Churches Wanted

[Tevye]

When I dug a little deeper into the pre-wrath view I found it difficult to find churches ( and Pastors ) around the country that held to the Pre-Wrath view. And still today there is, to the best of my knowledge, no organized communication and place to find Pre-wrath fellowships across this country. I would like to encourage a begining or an awareness of this need for Pastors who are Pre-wrath to get together and organize a way of communicating with each other and making a way for Pre-Wrath believers to find them. I believe that if we can accomplish this around America, when the time of great tribulation comes, and the need in the church at large for guidance in the truth will become a great necessity, as well as helping non Pre-wrath believers maintain their faith. We will be able to be a strength for them and pray with them and be His love and compassion in their greatest time of need.

Like Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22
31"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

If we gather together across the country and possibly around the world when we all are being sifted, in the time of great tribulation, maybe we could just be like this too.

I have hope.

[Deacon Sarvis]

Some time ago G_D showed me something I did not under stand and trying to figue that out by talking with brothers and sisters some laught
others understood because they knew also we will be around and an incouragement to both belivers who don't understand and searcher.
Some of the things in Revelation were seeled till another time, could this be that time.

[crmann]

Deacon Sarvis,

Without my having to go and look, can give the verses in Revelation which says something was sealed for the end times?

I am thinking that only occurred in the book of Daniel.

Thanks...

The old timer.

[crmann]

Hello Tevye,

I wonder if there are more than just a few pastors who hold to the pre wrath view. Most of America's pastors have been taught in pre trib theology seminaries. And it has been so ingrained in them, they just cannot let go of it even if the scriptures dispute it.

I am so frustrated with my pastor that I have decided trying to get him to see the truth isn't worth the effort. Not for me anyway. So I just continue studying the scriptures trying to get all the pieces to fall together, and trying to find the view which fit all the scriptures.

The old timer

[yhudit32548]

It reminds me of an old Frank Zappa song titled"This cant happen here".

Most teach that we will escape all the bad stuff.The problem that I believe is more dangerous, is the falling away from the Truth that we are seeing!
Mass amounts of Western Churches are ingesting Contemplative,Eucharistic, Kingdom now,and it is morphing into an epidemic!

Y'shua said MANY.....will fall away!!
Pusing false scripture like the Message Bible!!! I know of a Calvary Chapel co-pastor who gave one to a new Believer.
I found out she has fallen away from the fellowship.

A question....Why would HaShem bring a "revival" when there is no where for the new Believer to be fed and dicipled???????

Shalom

[yhudit32548]

Discipled..................

[Tevye]

Hello Tevye,

I wonder if there are more than just a few pastors who hold to the pre wrath view. Most of America's pastors have been taught in pre trib theology seminaries. And it has been so ingrained in them, they just cannot let go of it even if the scriptures dispute it.

I am so frustrated with my pastor that I have decided trying to get him to see the truth isn't worth the effort. Not for me anyway. So I just continue studying the scriptures trying to get all the pieces to fall together, and trying to find the view which fit all the scriptures.

The old timer

It is frustrating. I believe there are many pastors out there who need to come out of the closet so to speak. About being pre-wrath that is. They are afraid of the consequences in their denomination.

Come on in the water is fine. Be brave. the time for courage is at hand a your fellow believers need your help.

[Be still]

It is frustrating. I believe there are many pastors out there who need to come out of the closet so to speak. About being pre-wrath that is. They are afraid of the consequences in their denomination.

[Tevye]

Hello Tevye,

I wonder if there are more than just a few pastors who hold to the pre wrath view. Most of America's pastors have been taught in pre trib theology seminaries. And it has been so ingrained in them, they just cannot let go of it even if the scriptures dispute it.

I am so frustrated with my pastor that I have decided trying to get him to see the truth isn't worth the effort. Not for me anyway. So I just continue studying the scriptures trying to get all the pieces to fall together, and trying to find the view which fit all the scriptures.

The old timer

Well hello to ya too.
I once heard a story, that I cant seem to remember to well, of a pastor who was sharing with his church his new found belief that we were going to enter the 70th week of Daniel and experience, the church that is, the tribulation or wrath of antichrist. To make a short story long. His denomination asked him to leave and resign.

I believe there are pastors who need to have faith like some wonderful missionaries I know of, like Elizabeth Elliot and her courage to go back to the very tribe that took her beloveds life, Jim Elliot.

Sometime I wish I had this kind of faith. I know and feel God has been calling me to go out there, to a place where others feel and think it is not safe for me or my family. I know the step of faith comes before the provision, yet it is so difficult. I imagine these pastors have yet to take this step of faith and believe for the Lord to provide for their family.

He is Jehova Jirah.

He will supply all our needs acording to his riches in glory!!!
In Christ Jesus!

[zephaniah]

He is Jehova Jirah.

He will supply all our needs acording to his riches in glory!!!
In Christ Jesus!

We just went over that last name for God last wednesday night at prayer meeting. I find it simply fascinating studying the names of God and putting them all together to get a glimpse of His awesome character

and yes, He will provide!

zephaniah

[Tevye]

He is Jehova Jirah.

He will supply all our needs acording to his riches in glory!!!
In Christ Jesus!

We just went over that last name for God last wednesday night at prayer meeting. I find it simply fascinating studying the names of God and putting them all together to get a glimpse of His awesome character

and yes, He will provide!

zephaniah

There once was a poster or something that had hebrew names and their meanings. I think this was the one that has been a testimony in my life. Many challenges and many provisions. i praise Him!

[Triton57]

I found this thread trying to find this site for someone else. Here's a list of pre-wrath churches.

http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/pr ... urches.htm

[savedbygrace]

Hi Triton, thanks for the good list! There's a church within 1 hour's drive of my home that I may consider attending to check it out. That would be a big blessing to find a church that is not pre-trib. Who knows, it may even lead to something really great!

[bsheahan]

Deacon Sarvis,

Without my having to go and look, can give the verses in Revelation which says something was sealed for the end times?

I am thinking that only occurred in the book of Daniel.

Thanks...

The old timer.

There is a part in Revelation where Jesus is revealing to John and Jesus tells him to not share that - to keep it to himself. However, I cannot find it...

I'm looking... I'll update it when I find it.

[Be still]

Revelation 10:4

4 When the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write. But I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Keep secret what the seven thunders said, and do not write it down.”

[Triton57]

A new prewrath-friendly church has been added to Strongtower Publishing's running list of churches. The senior pastor is not prewrath, but this church is open to a variety of views and the associate pastor is prewrath.

Twin City Fellowship
2734 Rhode Island Ave South
St. Louis Park, MN
Associate Pastor Ryan Habbena holds to prewrath

[Tevye]

Thank you Triton, I hope that list grows
and that there is no longer room enough there for it
for all the ones who will come into the truth.
(blessings upon blessings, to the faithful church!)

[Ready1]

Thank you Triton, I hope that list grows
and that there is no longer room enough there for it
for all the ones who will come into the truth.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Agreed!

[slick]

Hello,
I know of A church In Michigan

Harvest Bible Chapel West Olive Michigan. Between Grand Haven And Holland Michigan

God-Bless,
Clarence

[Lightseeker]

Clarence. Good to have you here.

[slick]

Clarence. Good to have you here

THanx I am happy to be a part of this group!!
GOD-BLESS,
Clarence

[treesy]

I first heard the pre-wrath view layed out by my Southern Baptist preacher right around the time that I found Herb and his website. I live in Indiana, but he now pastors a church in Salem, Missouri. http://directory.rollanet.org/listing_output_PDF.php?id=40

Also, I'm pretty sure James McDonald of Walk in the Word radio show is pre-wrath, also. http://www.walkintheword.com/index.aspx

[Salty Skipper]

I first heard the pre-wrath view layed out by my Southern Baptist preacher right around the time that I found Herb and his website. I live in Indiana, but he now pastors a church in Salem, Missouri. http://directory.rollanet.org/listing_output_PDF.php?id=40

Also, I'm pretty sure James McDonald of Walk in the Word radio show is pre-wrath, also. http://www.walkintheword.com/index.aspx

It's so funny about SBC preachers. Ours is staunchly pre-trib, but I've heard rumors that there are SBC pastors out there who are pre-wrath. You just confirmed the rumors.

[treesy]

There's at least one! lol

[smackbucket]

Shucks, Triton, you beat me to it! And my church would not be labeled pre-wrath, but the pastor and at least 1 of the 3 other elders are (and probably 2 of them). When I came out of the closet with a vengeance (concerning my opposition to pre-trib, that is) I thought I would get a lot of flack considering we had quite a few Left Behind readers and even the main character in the first Thief in the Night movie. But very little flack was given to me, and it was pretty cute to have the teenagers that I'd known since they were in diapers wanting me to sign my book for them. It was weird, but fun.

Only one guy that I can remember came forward and was "very bothered." He even caused a pretty serious argument and then dropped out of a bible study that was going through my book. But then about 3 months later he came to me, apologized, and said he had read my book 3 more times and realized he'd been wrong about pre-trib for the past 30 years. It was a very encouraging experience.

Anyway, this was NOT meant for an advertisement for my book (there are a lot better ones out there), but I just wanted to show the openness in my group that I’ve experienced first-hand to give you feel for us. We’re in Waukee, Iowa if anyone is in the area and tired of the same ol’, same ol’.

Dave

[smackbucket]

Plus, I don't think it's all that important to have to have a pre-wrath church to attend. I would gladly enjoy ANY group that simply believed that we were not going to avoid the trib. A post trib church would feel GREAT for the pre-wrather that had felt stuck in a strong pre-trib environment for many years!

[Tevye]

Also, I'm pretty sure James McDonald of Walk in the Word radio show is pre-wrath, also. http://www.walkintheword.com/index.aspx

Thank you for sharing treesy.

I liked to hear a message from James McDonald on his rapture view.

I believe the original church Robert Van Kampen had built
together with his friends in the Lord
is now somehow connected to the Harvest churches
and I believe Sola has a link to walk in the word.

Interesting.
I'd like to see how it goes for them.

The Spirit of Lord be with them.

[treesy]

Tevye,

I believe I have the series on my computer. It's 3 parts, about 25 minutes each. I could get them to you.

Darrell

[Kathe]

We attended a Harvest church for awhile in Michigan. The pastor and congregation are staunchly pre-trib and won't allow any discussion of anything else. So sad.

[Tevye]

Tevye,

I believe I have the series on my computer. It's 3 parts, about 25 minutes each. I could get them to you.

Darrell

Hello Darrell,
do they teach the pre-wrath view in the series?

[treesy]

Yes, he does. He teaches that the signs as given in Mark 13 (Matthew 24) are for us to see to know that Christ's return is near. That we will see the Antichrist revealed and that we will have to suffer for our faith and perservere to the end. He teaches that we will be raptured before the wrath of God, not before the tribulation. He specifically states that he does not believe in the pre-trib rapture, that it is LOGICAL, but not BIBLICAL. The series is actually one message split into 3 radio broadcasts and the beginning of the 2nd and 3rd broadcast overlap with the end of the previous broadcast. The message is titled The End is Coming.

[prewrathpatty]

There is a wonderful prewrath church in Scranton Pennsylvania. (northeast Pa)

http://www.scrantonrevivalbaptist.org/

It is called Revival Baptist Church of Scranton.

On their website they have a "Prophecy Watch" section which has commentary on current events and prophecy.

Also, it has an "Audio Sermons" section where you can hear prewrath sermons.

The pastor always reads Fulfilled Prophecy and mentions it a lot in his commentary and messages. It has been a great blessing to them!

[nike]

Tevye,

The church RVK started in Michigan just recently became a Harvest Bible Chapel. As an independent church for its first dozen or so years, the elders were seeking like minded believers for support and encouragement, mainly for the staff, but also for the body. Harvest Bible Chapels are not a denomination but just a fellowship of like minded believers. We are completely in agreement with their doctrinal statement which made the decision easy. As for eschatology, their statement is broad - as in "we believe in the literal physical return of Jesus, after which He will usher in His millennial kingdom here on earth." This allowed us to be able to expand our prewrath belief within our own statement and not compromise the Fellowships stand. If the Fellowship had been pre-trib, we wouldn't have joined. As for James MacDonald, he is prewrath in his views and lately he has started to become more bold in his warnings to his church. Years ago he had Charles Cooper (when Coop still lived here in Michigan) come and teach a class at his church. Now he has preached that we are in the last seconds of the last minutes of the final hours of time.

Just thought this might answer your question.

Nike

[Tevye]

The church needs more men and women
who are more than willing to stand for biblical truth
and to share it in their sermons and classes, as often as possible.
The time is here, to prepare for what is coming against the faithful church.
I remember what RVK wrote about in the end of his book The Sign
about preparing for what we will experience inside of the Great Tribulation.

I wonder if that time to prepare has already come,
and is almost gone.

[nike]

I knew him my whole life. Literally, my whole life. I don't want to imply perfection because he was far from it, but boy, did he love the Word! He would be thrilled with what is happening at the church (Grace/Harvest) today. I have told James MacDonald that he and dad are very similar in their personalities and passions. They never met but would have been fast friends.

As time passes, it seems that things are getting clearer. I miss him and often wonder what he would be saying today...no, I know he would be expounding his heart out. My husband and I are teaching prewrath classes in our home, through the church. We have about 150 signed up, between adults and about 40 college students. Our theme for 2009 in the church is "This is not a drill - declaring the Lord with urgency." Whether or not we are in the last days, God is on the move and it is time for the church to aggressively teach the return of the Lord. Complacency is no longer an option, not that it ever was.

I appreciate your role on this board, and the kind words you have said here and there about RVK. He never sought or expected accolades, but with him gone, I enjoy hearing kind words now and again.

nike

[tater]

I truly enjoy listening to James MacDonald on the radio...not an Harvest church near me.

[milo3]

Welcome to the board nike. It is great to have you here.



milo3

[Tevye]

It's good to hear
that Harvest is doing very well.
It's a wonderful church.

[nike]

Thanks, milo3! I've been "lurking" for some time, but am a bit intimidated by all the smiley faces and how quickly people post...not sure my computer skills are up to par!

Tevye - that is a precious story, one which I will share with my mom. Just so you don't feel bad, there were a lot of calls at the gate over the years! The Bible Museum was actually on the property at that time and we were used to the public coming and going. I know exactly who you described in the two men who greeted you - kind, godly men who continue to serve the Lord to this day. If Dad had been healthy he would have loved to have sat and talked with you. There was truly no greater joy than to sit with the Word and just feast when it came to dad...

I hope this is not too much chatting, but I have to add one thing. Tevye, you are obviously much younger than I pictured by your name. I was picturing the Tevye from Fiddler on the Roof, but if you had a newborn in 99, you're a young man! If you ever make it up this way again, we'll be sure to have coffee - you'd love my husband. A great teacher and elder...sober about the days ahead...

Thanks again for sharing your story - you got a huge smile from me (and if I had any idea how to use those smiley faces, you'd get one here)! Okay, so it's easier than it looks!

nike

[Abiding in His Word]

Nike and Tevye,

Here's a link to the Van Kempen Collection on the web if you're interested.

http://www.scriptorium.org/vkc.html

Great articles on end times here (some from Cooper)

http://www.scriptorium.org/articles.html

And Newsletters (pdf) for download from the Sign Ministries here:

http://www.scriptorium.org/products/newsletters.html

[burien1]

Welcome to FP, Nike !

YSIC,
Brenda

[slick]

Hello Nike!!!

welcome, HEHEHE.......

Slick!

[treesy]

Welcome, Nike

I love listening to James McDonald. When I first became a Christian back in 2002, I was fortunate enough to be in range to a station airing his broadcasts. i distinctly remember thinking, "This man says what he believes and believes what he says!" He was a breath of fresh air to my soul because he preached the Word without apology, not just what people wanted to hear.

Tevye, I keep trying to send the series, but am having no luck. I'll see if Holly can somehow host if it's legal.

[jesusfreesus]

Can anyone help me find a church that supports the pre wrath rapture view?

I dont care where in the world it is.

[Abiding in His Word]

Can anyone help me find a church that supports the pre wrath rapture view?

I dont care where in the world it is.

to the board, jesusfreesus!

In this thread above, someone posted this link to a list of pre-wrath churches:

http://www.strongtowerpublishing.com/pr ... urches.htm

[jesusfreesus]

Has anyone looked at the document by Vincent Sawyer on the prewrath view ( He has it attached on his prewrath sermon on sermonaudio.com) ...If so do you agree with it thoroughly?