crossing the line

[slick]

Hello Gang,

When I was a kid sometimes a challenge from a rival would be uttered and it would go something like" I DARE YOU TO CROSS THIS LINE" after he would with a stick or his finger draw a real or imagined one in the sand in front of himself.The idea was supposed to imply that if the line was crossed there would be consequences to be faced by the line drawer.

I have been thinking and watching and listening for some time as the adversary (devil) has drawn lines and "DARED" followers of Christ to step over. As any "MACHO KID" would tell you A dare can not be ignored if you want to maintain your status as being "HIP, COOL,BAD ETC...sometimes when the line was crossed the drawer discovered that his power to carry out the consequences was not sufficient and HE would lose the contest.The Devil works a little differently in that by appearing weak he is strong.often Christians submitting to the "DARES" of the devil find themselves unchallenged and facing little or no consequnces,this of course becomes a temptation to continue across the line, where the consequences become more and more severe and a trap springs closed.

God draws lines too, and there are dire consequences to be faced when crossing those lines, however much like the devils delayed consequences,so too are Gods, the difference being His love and Patience, and Grace & Mercy toward mankind,but his Wrath is not idle and one day will be unleashed on those who either crossed GODS lines or The devils.

So here is some things to ponder,to those of us who name CHRIST as our savior, and claim to be submitted to HIM.

1. HOW FAR ACROSSED ANY LINE DRAWN IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD?

2. CAN PARTS OF A CHRISTIANS LIFE BE SEPERATED FROM EACH OTHER?

Thoughts on question 1:

let me elaborate,we all are sinners and cross the line to our old self in some ways every day,and temptation is part of the normal experience of every christian.This is not what I am referring to,rather upon crossing the line a stronger temptation to linger on the wrong side.The continued action of this results in "SECRET SIN" or sometimes referred to as "BESETTING SIN" the senses and conscience become dulled and you begin to rationalize that what you are involved in isnt too bad and find ways to suppose that GOD doesnt mind your activities.This is due to our faulty system of classification of sin instead of recognizing GODS view and acceptance of HIS HOLY & PERFECT standard.so in reality any distance of crossing the line is UNACCEPTABLE.in fact if we consider GODS initial warning concerning sinful behavior,we are not even supposed to approach the line!!!

Thoughts on Question 2:

I know a few people who Claim to be CHRISTIAN and indeed display some of the FRUITS and characteristics that the BIBLE says we will know them by, in other words as far as I am able to discern, THEY are TRUE BELIEVERS.Here is where I question their faith, the example I am about to convey is but one of any number of scenarios I could speak to. These BELIEVERS all vote and support the DEMOCRATIC party and agenda. Now the arguments I most often find myself in is one of TWO, either NOT ALL DEMOCRATS HOLD TO THE EXTREME LIBERALISM DICTATED BY THE MAJORITY OF THE PARTY OR I SEPERATE MY RELIGIOUS VIEWS FROM MY POLITICAL VIEWS.by way of illustration let me relate a story from my youth, let me start by saying that though there is aprinciple to be learned by the following I am not saying that I executed the best JUDGMENT in carring out the rebuke.....

"I ATTENED FOR A SHORT TIME, WITH SOME FRIENDS A VERY STRICT BAPTIST CHURCH, ("WE DONT SMOKE WE DONT CHEW WE DONT GO WITH KIDS WHO DO")THEY WERE AGAINST ANY AND ALL TYPES OF WORLDLY ACTIVITIES,PLAYING,CARDS,DANCING,GOING TO MOVIES ETC...ONE WEEKEND I & A FRIEND WENT TO THE MOVIES AND WATCHED SOME FAMILY FRIENDLY MOVIE DISNEY OR SOME TYPE, WORD REACHED THE PASTOR OF THIS BREACH OF CHURCH ALLOWENCE AND I WAS CONFRONTED. THOUGH I PLEADED MY CASE IN THE MOVIE BEING A G RATED FAMILY FRIENDLY MOVIE THE PASTORS REBUKE WENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS,

"THAT DOESNT MATTER BECAUSE SOME OF THE MONEY THAT YOU GAVE THEM WILL GO TO PRESENT UNGODLY TYPE FILMS.YOU NEED TO PRAY AND REPENT OF YOUR SIN "

BEING YOUNG AND REBELLIOUS, I POSED TO HIM A QUESTION,

"PASTOR, DO YOU AND YOUR WIFE EVER SHOP AT THE LOCAL SUPERMARKET?"

TO WHICH HE AGREED THAT THEY DID. I REMINDED HIM THAT THIS PARTICULAR STORE SOLD,ALCHOHOL, PLAYBOYS, TOBACCO AND OTHER SUCH OBJECTIONABLES AND THAT DUE TO HIS SUPPORT NEEDED TO ALSO REPENT!

I WAS PROMPTLY REMOVED FROM THE CHURCH AND ASKED NOT TO RETURN!!

the point I am getting at is when is support to objectionable activities alowable? certainly shopping at the local stores and markets that sell unscrupulous items is not sinning, however what about, working as a clerk in one of the stores in question? or how about owning one?if you think about those things for a minuet you can come to a Biblical based conclusion....so then how about political views or allegience? which scenario best describes the above examples, WORKING FOR OR OWNING?

The Bible states "BE HOLY EVEN AS I AM HOLY..." the word HOLY means seperate or different it means to cast your allegience with GODS view of the world and mankind,SINFUL & EVIL. it means to ILLUMINE THE DARKNESS with the light of promise offered in CHRIST, it means to withdraw from the accepted worldview and cling to the CROSS.

It is impossible for a true follower of CHRIST to divide his life into sections such as RELIGIOUS & POLITICAL remember CHRISTS ADMONITION "WHAT FELLOWSHIP HAS LIGHT WITH DARK..."

I am interested in your thoughts and ideas concerning this so please think about it and reply and perhaps we can learn some things together through this conversation.

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!

Clarence

[Loop]

"PASTOR, DO YOU AND YOUR WIFE EVER SHOP AT THE LOCAL SUPERMARKET?"

TO WHICH HE AGREED THAT THEY DID. I REMINDED HIM THAT THIS PARTICULAR STORE SOLD,ALCHOHOL, PLAYBOYS, TOBACCO AND OTHER SUCH OBJECTIONABLES AND THAT DUE TO HIS SUPPORT NEEDED TO ALSO REPENT!

My sister in law would say, she 'has" to go to the supermarket for food, you don't have to go to the movies...

So , YOU can see, My husband and I have discussed this before..

[Abiding in His Word]

1. HOW FAR ACROSSED ANY LINE DRAWN IS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD?

I don't know the answer to this....

2. CAN PARTS OF A CHRISTIANS LIFE BE SEPERATED FROM EACH OTHER?

And it *happened that He was reclining at the table in his house, and many tax collectors and sinners were dining with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many of them, and they were following Him. When the scribes of the Pharisees saw that He was eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they said to His disciples, "Why is He eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners?" Mark 2:15-16

... "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon!' "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds." Matthew 11:18-19

To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 1Cor. 9:20-21

I think there's a difference between associating with and participating in sin with them. After all, we sit next to sinners and fellowship with them every week in church, don't we?

[dolfseal]

Be careful how you judge things. There is only one unforgivable sin, unbelief in Christ. Do not subject yourself to your own judgement when God is not holding you to the Law, if in Christ, you are no longer subject to the law. Any church that tells you to do x,y, and z does not understand what it means to be in Christ.

[slick]

Hello Gang,

Very Good input! The thrust of what I am saying really concerns moral purity & perfection. certainly we are no longer under the law but as Abiding has mentioned our freedom is not absolute license.what appears to me is the church at large and many Christians I know have taken far too much liberty and forgot GODS standard of purity and Holiness.

the second part of my post has to do with association VS participation as Abiding has correctly identified, where is that line drawn? if I shop at A large chain store and the funds from my purchase are used for objectionable items is that tantamount to participation? again how about owning a chain store with the fore mentioned items in the inventory?
Translate this concept or idea into our political persuasion, does this constitute association or participation.

I see a desperate need in these times for TRUE BELIEVERS to make a stand against the world system and its perverse views. WE are under direct attack and losing ground, I KNOW the battle is won but we are not supposed to rest on our lorals but as PAul said "...FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT..."

GOD-BLESS,

THE BATTLE RAGES TIL THE LION SOON ROARS!,

Clarence

[Rich Kelley]

Hello Gang,
I see a desperate need in these times for TRUE BELIEVERS to make a stand against the world system and its perverse views. WE are under direct attack and losing ground, I KNOW the battle is won but we are not supposed to rest on our lorals but as PAul said "...FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT..."

I see a need for Followers of Christ to become more like Christ. Everything going on in the world today was going on when Christ was here walking around on this earth. All of the "what if" things that can be brought up and made into a fine discussion, tend to be distractions rather than growth tools to be more Christ like. The what if or catch 22s are very much legalistic arguments and hold as much bondage and control as the Baptist church mentioned earlier.

[Keeping Alert]

While I can understand the inner struggle and yearning to live a life totally holy and committed to the Lord, I would suggest that focusing on where the line is quite draining emotionally and physically and not quite that edifying.

Consider the very computer that we are using. It is probably produced in China or Taiwan at some factory that these BIG BOYS have managed to squeeze and choke so that they can make MEGA profits. Recently, there was a chain of suicides at a factory that produced the iPhone (or was it the iPad?) due to terrible working hours and conditions and extremely low pay.

How about newspapers? Are there not advertisements in there that are fleshly? Do we then take a stand and not read them?

I would think that EVERYTHING that we do, could then become a line that we have to debate... and the problem is this - what then is the answer?

I would suggest that the answer is this - Does doing something or not something stumble others?

Buying groceries at a store that also sells tobacco or alcohol, would it or would it not stumble most people if they saw you doing it - you make the call...

Going into a casino not to play but for the cheap food, would it or would it not stumble most people if they saw you doing it - you make the call...

Therefore, I see 2 levels of accountability - ONE to God - what is my purpose for going or doing? SECOND to those around us - what would they think of us if they saw us doing certain things or going somewhere?

With these 2 principles in mind, I think life lived in the Spirit is fresher and intentional; otherwise we would tie ourslelves into knots crossing lines...

Blessings,
KA