When are you married in God's eyes?

Discussion and debate not related to prophecy.

When are you married in God's eyes?

Postby hoshianna on Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:15 am

Is it at a ceremony?
Matthew 19:4-6
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
In God's eyes, exactly when is a man "united to his wife", "become one flesh", "joined together?"

What is Paul saying in this passage?
1 Corinthians 6:15-17
15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
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Two shall be one.

Postby Mario on Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:38 pm

Though the vows between husband and wife are essential, the union isn't consummated until the marriage act on their wedding night. And so your reference to Christ's words of union require the two becoming one flesh.

This is extremely important to grasp because in Eph 5:31 Paul states the marital relationship mirrors the relationship of Christ and the Church. We are one with Jesus, his Body, so deeply united that when encountering Saul on the road to Damascus, Jesus does not ask Saul why he is persecuting his chosen, but rather he asks, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me!...I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."(Acts 9:4-5)
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Re: Two shall be one.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:40 pm

Mario wrote:Though the vows between husband and wife are essential,


Can you give me a scripture reference for marriage vows between a woman and a man?
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Postby ozell on Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:42 am

Though the vows between husband and wife are essential, the union isn't consummated until the marriage act on their wedding night. And so your reference to Christ's words of union require the two becoming one flesh.


Hi all


When a man sleep with a woman or a woman sleep with a man that is there wife or husband. The marriage is consummated then.

Gen 16:1 Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.

2: And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.

3: And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

4 And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.


Gen 29:20 And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.

21: And Jacob said unto Laban, Give me my wife, for my days are fulfilled, that I may go in unto her.

23 And it came to pass in the evening, that he took Leah his daughter, and brought her to him; and he went in unto her.

28: And Jacob did so, and fulfilled her week: and he gave him Rachel his daughter to wife also.[/b]

Gen 30:4 And [b]she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her.


1Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17: But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

1Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

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Re: Two shall be one.

Postby Mario on Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:44 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
Mario wrote:Though the vows between husband and wife are essential,


Can you give me a scripture reference for marriage vows between a woman and a man?


Abiding in His Word,

The Church's understanding of vows or free consent of bride and groom is rooted in the OT concept of betrothal where a father would covenant his daughter to her husband. Three passages come to mind. In Gen 29:19, Laban betroths or gives Rachel to Jacob with a stipulation of 7 years:

v. 19 Laban said, "It is better that I give her to you than that I should give her to any other man...

At the end of 7 years, Jacob returns to Laban:

Then Jacob said to Laban, "Give me my wife that I may go into her, for my time is completed...

Notice that the betrothal was binding, Jacob acknowledges Rachel as his wife even if Laban tricks Jacob to wait another 7 years.
___________________

Also, in the prophetic books, the Lord swears and betroths himself to his Chosen as to a Bride, even if his People play the harlot:

Ez 16:8 When I passed by you again and looked upon you, behold, you were at the age for love; and I spread my skirt over you, and covered your nakedness: yea, I swore to you and entered into a covenant with you, says the Lord God, and you became mine.

Hos 2:19-20 And I will betroth you to me forever; I will betroth you to me in righteousness and in justice, in steadfast love and in mercy. I will betroth you to me in faithfulness; and you shall know the Lord!

Apart from this discussion, I treasure those Hosea verses as promises from God to us. Sing Alleluia!

Abiding in His Word, though today we no longer view paternal rights over a daughter the same way, marriage vows serve the same purpose and the free consent of bride and groom to one another is as binding.
The marriage act then consummates the union.
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Re: Two shall be one.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:52 pm

Mario wrote:Abiding in His Word, though today we no longer view paternal rights over a daughter the same way, marriage vows serve the same purpose and the free consent of bride and groom to one another is as binding. The marriage act then consummates the union.


I understand the customs of parental rights in the OT, but I'm asking for a scriptural premise for a "vow" between a woman and man.
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Re: Two shall be one.

Postby Mario on Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:21 am

Abiding in His Word wrote:I understand the customs of parental rights in the OT, but I'm asking for a scriptural premise for a "vow" between a woman and man.


Abiding in His Word,

At least you are consistent! :grin: I am a little confused as to what you are getting at. There is no explicit Biblical passage concerning marriage vows.

Are you concerned about a Scriptural basis for the taking of vows by Christians?

or,

Are you questioning whether wedding vows (or promises) are in God's will for establishing a marital union? :dunno:
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Re: Two shall be one.

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:09 pm

Mario wrote:Abiding in His Word,

At least you are consistent!

:grin: I try to be....

I am a little confused as to what you are getting at. There is no explicit Biblical passage concerning marriage vows.

Are you concerned about a Scriptural basis for the taking of vows by Christians?

or,

Are you questioning whether wedding vows (or promises) are in God's will for establishing a marital union?


I'm trying to establish a biblical basis for wedding ceremonies or marriages as they are performed today in response to the OP question on when are you married in God's eyes.

You stated above:

Though the vows between husband and wife are essential,


so I'm asking where you find in scripture that vows are essential in order for two people to be married.

And BTW, thanks for asking for clarification - it makes a discussion less likely to get off on a tangent or for someone to make assumptions that may not be correct.

:grin:
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The best I can do!

Postby Mario on Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:19 pm

Abiding in His Word,

I believe that marriage is correctly understood as a covenant because it is a union ordained by God (Gen 1:27-28) and it is a union of man and woman joined by God (Mk 10:9). Marriage mirrors the Mosaic Covenant and the New Covenant established by Jesus.

Each of these covenants are instituted, ratified, and consummated.

Mosaic Covenant:
Instituted by God in Exodus 24:1-11 (taken as a whole).
Ratified by the reading of the book of the covenant and the people’s pledge of obedience (v. 7)
Consummated by the shedding of blood (v. 5) and the sprinkling of blood (v. 8)

New Covenant:
Instituted at Jesus’ last celebration of the Passover (Lk 22:19-20).
Ratified by each generation of disciples during the Lord’s Supper (1Cor 11:23-26).
Consummated by the shedding of Christ’s blood (Jn 19:33-37).

Marriage Covenant:
Instituted by God (Gen 1:27-28/ Mk 10:9).
Ratified by the exchange of promises by the bride and groom.*
Consummated by the marriage act (Gen 2:24).

* Abiding in His Word, you are right to ask where are vows mentioned in the Bible, for there is no explicit passage. But the betrothal in the OT and the promises between the bride and groom of today fulfill the requirement of ratification as demonstrated by the Old and New Covenants.

I can think of no better way to express my understanding and convictions. If this is insufficient, then please seek wiser counsel than mine. There are many wiser believers than myself. :bag: LOL!
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Re: The best I can do!

Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:53 pm

Mario wrote:
Marriage Covenant:
Instituted by God (Gen 1:27-28/ Mk 10:9).
Ratified by the exchange of promises by the bride and groom.*
Consummated by the marriage act (Gen 2:24).

* Abiding in His Word, you are right to ask where are vows mentioned in the Bible, for there is no explicit passage. But the betrothal in the OT and the promises between the bride and groom of today fulfill the requirement of ratification as demonstrated by the Old and New Covenants.


Mario, you did a great job of explaining covenants and I sincerely thank you for the research you did for this post. I do agree with you, however, that there is no explicit passage (that I'm aware of) that expressly calls the relationship between a wife and husband a covenant or a vow.

The study of covenants is a fascinating one if you have the time to do some research on them. Some are between persons of equal status and others between a "suzerain" or "super-king over a number of lesser kings. Archaeological findings indicate that this type of covenant would most likely have been familiar to the Israelites. This type of covenant was widely used in the ancient Near East at the time of the Exodus and is (according to Bible history) very much like that between Yahweh and Israel.

Sorry for that detour, but it is a great study.

So, since we are unable (so far) to come up with anything scripturally that lends itself to a covenant or vow in marriage, can we assume that it is a man-made, tradition of calling the marriage ceremony "vows?" That it is, as has been stated above, simply the consumation of a relationship physically?
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:06 pm

Just wanted to add that some covenants are conditional and some not.
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Postby yhudit32548 on Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:32 am

In jewish Midrash(a biblical commentary of the WORD),the High Priest goes into the Holiest part of the Temple.He is the ONLY one who knows what is is like in there!The veil,which is likend to a virgin,is only for the High Priest to push aside. No other man can do so.Understand?

It is also believed that HaShem hovers over the Marriage bed,and HIS Shekanah Glory is there. When you look at the Bible the way a jew does,you will find some understang that perhaps was not there when reading the WORD(DAVAR)....
much more can be shared on this>>>>>


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Postby AndCanItBe on Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:37 am

Vows are a manmade tradition but since there is no sin in exchanging them in this case, we should follow the tradition to avoid the appearance of evil because of the connotations attached to it in our society. It's very difficult to have a good witness when you are perceived to be "living in sin". If you truly intend to stay with one person until you die as you should, then it shouldn't be a problem to follow through with the tradition just so you don't hurt your witness. I'm only saying this because the tradition isn't sinful though, it's a different story if it is, of course, but marriage vows are simply saying verbally what you say physically later. :2cents:
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:26 pm

yhudit32548 wrote:In jewish Midrash(a biblical commentary of the WORD),the High Priest goes into the Holiest part of the Temple.He is the ONLY one who knows what is is like in there!The veil,which is likend to a virgin,is only for the High Priest to push aside. No other man can do so.Understand?


Yes, I understand, and it's a nice thought......but nothing more unless you can back up with scripture that the veil in the temple is likened to a virgin.

As I said, yhudit32548, it's a nice thought but a pretty big stretch since that veil was rent in two when Jesus died. :roll:
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Postby yhudit32548 on Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:00 am

I/m using what is called in Judaism....Midrash.This is somewhat complex because Midrash is not used in the Hellenistic teaching of the Scriptures. When you read the Scriptures Site ,you are reading an Oriental book with a western mind.

When the High Priest entered into the HOLY Place This was a UNION between G=D and HIS People Israel.Yes when Y'shua died the Veil was torn and Y'shua was Israel's final atonement!

Israel was HIS BRIDE. The Church(faithfull believers) is also HIS Bride.
The Hebrew word for one is "Achad" it means One.
"Hear Oh Israel,The L-Rd your G-D,the L-Rd HE is One(Achad)
This same word is used for the joining of a man and his wife.They are Achad.
HaSHem instituted Marriage as a representation of HIMSELF.

I hope this is made a bit more clear for you...

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Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:09 am

yhudit32548

What I'm asking for is scripture chapter and verse....... :wink:
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Postby yhudit32548 on Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:28 pm

Scripture and verse of what site? Do you not know that the G-D of Israel is ONE ?That HE is 3 in ONE? Please look up the term Midrash on the Internet and perhaps you will understand how a jew reads the HOLY WORD.
In western thought a parable means perhaps one thing.In jewish teaching,A parable can have up to 70 different meanings. I m not changing anything of G-Ds WORD,Im giving a biblical commentary as a jew reads.

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Postby Abiding in His Word on Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:26 pm

yhudit32548

Yes, I believe the Lord our God is one....Three in one.

The question of the thread is "When is a person married in God's eyes?" So we're looking for chapter and verse in the Bible that might clarify this as well as the marriage ceremony as we have it today.
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Another thing

Postby redeemed1953 on Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:22 pm

:armor:

When the notion of marriage comes along, when are you really married?

I was committed to my spouse, in my heart, before we ever said the vows. As time went along, I grew more and more committed to my spouse--before God.

We know of people who refuse to register their marriages with the state they live in because the state now recognizes the union of sodomites. They feel that the vows they made before God should not be mingled with the food of pigs.

I struggle with some of the thinking, but it is mostly on the govenrmental level, i.e. social security, taxes, etc.

Is this what the Body of Christ is coming to? Are we willing to eat with pigs?

I don't know what to think about my friends who are saying no.

Sometimes, the line drawn in the sand is filled with barbs.

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Postby daffodyllady on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:45 am

I have thought about this quite a bit, and I believe that we cannot say that simply having sex with someone you plan to stick with the rest ofyour life, can make a marriage. Why? Because marriage is more than sex. Marriage is God's foundation of a godly society.

If marriage were automatically created when two people had sex, and automatically broken when one of those people has sex with someone else, then what is the definition of fornication and adultery?

Think of it this way. We vow to be faithful to our spouse. Why? Because God designed love that way: we naturally want to make those vows, because He wants marriages to be permanent and exclusive.

The responsibility to keep a marriage permanent and exclusive, however, is not because we have made those vows. Rather, it is based on God's commandments concerning marital relationships.

If one person refuses to keep his marriage exclusive, he puts other marriages at risk. He becomes a risk factor for other homes. The same way with permanency. When one marriage breaks up, those two people become risk factors for other homes, because they have become stray electrons in the atomic structure of society.

Therefore, we owe it not only to our spouses to be faithful to them, but also to society in general, and to God, in particular.

This then makes marriage a covenant with not only another person, but also with God and with our community.

Therefore, we owe it to God, and to the communities in which we live, to honor the customs of the people we live around, regarding establishing a marriage. Those rituals may be different in various places. But we owe it to other people, and to God, to honor the homes around us, by having a marriage ceremony.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:34 pm

daffodyllady wrote:I have thought about this quite a bit, and I believe that we cannot say that simply having sex with someone you plan to stick with the rest ofyour life, can make a marriage. Why? Because marriage is more than sex. Marriage is God's foundation of a godly society.


We're trying to validate this through scripture, daffodyllady. I agree with you that marriage is more than sex, but sex normally is the fulfillment of two individuals committed to one another.

If marriage were automatically created when two people had sex, and automatically broken when one of those people has sex with someone else, then what is the definition of fornication and adultery?


Adultery is having sex with someone other than your spouse. That has always been the definition of adultery. We can prove that thru scripture, but since that isn't the focus of this thread, we probably won't go there.

Think of it this way. We vow to be faithful to our spouse. Why? Because God designed love that way: we naturally want to make those vows, because He wants marriages to be permanent and exclusive.


Agreed 100% that God designed marriage to be one woman and one man. What we're searching for is scripture that defines at what point they are considered married as well as scripture supporting vows in a marriage ceremony as we have it today.

This then makes marriage a covenant with not only another person, but also with God and with our community.


Do you know of scripture that says a woman and a man make a covenant with one another?

Therefore, we owe it to God, and to the communities in which we live, to honor the customs of the people we live around, regarding establishing a marriage. Those rituals may be different in various places. But we owe it to other people, and to God, to honor the homes around us, by having a marriage ceremony.


So are you suggesting that marriage is a "custom?"
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Postby ozell on Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:53 pm

HI FP

there was no ceremony involved between Adam and Eve. There is no where in the scriptures where Adam and Eve took the time to court one another.

Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

From the beginning man has decided to ignore God's commandment of having only one wife.

Deu 17:17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

Gen 4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one [was] Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.

1Ki 11:3 And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.

In some culture the parents still choose the mate. Abraham had Isaac wife chosen. In the below verses with Isaac and Rebekah, there was no time for getting to know one another, they had sex and she became his wife. They were joined together and became one flesh.

Deu 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

We have to ask ourselves when is the marriage really broken? what is adultery? when is the adultery commited, is in in the mind, but who knows the mind of another mind as the scriptures says. yes, but the act is what finalize it. When a person is caught in the act this is when it is adultery and the spouse can act upon it. divorce.

Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him.

3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?

4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away.

5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same [matter].

11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Gen 24:4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.

7 The LORD God of heaven, which took me from my father's house, and from the land of my kindred, and which spake unto me, and that sware unto me, saying, Unto thy seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before thee, and thou shalt take a wife unto my son from thence.

15 And it came to pass, before he had done speaking, that, behold, Rebekah came out, who was born to Bethuel, son of Milcah, the wife of Nahor, Abraham's brother, with her pitcher upon her shoulder.

36 And Sarah my master's wife bare a son to my master when she was old: and unto him hath he given all that he hath.

37 And my master made me swear, saying, Thou shalt not take a wife to my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, in whose land I dwell:

:38 But thou shalt go unto my father's house, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son.

51 Behold, Rebekah [is] before thee, take [her], and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the LORD hath spoken.

67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's [death].

So is it the act of sex that brings the marriage together?
We know its the act of sex in most cases that separates the marriage.
I have to look at this spiritually not worldly.


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Postby Tevye on Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:27 am

It appears, that according to a Jewish wedding, marriage is a process consumating when the groom steps on the glass and it breaks. Our earthly union of marriage is a glimpse of the union of Christ and His Bride ( the church and the new Jerusalem ).

There may be no reference in scripture to the current style of a marriage union, here in the western world, because it is not culturally the same as in biblical times.

As in the story of the woman at the well in Samaria. She had many husbands and the one she was with then was not her husband. I'm guessing what Jesus was getting at, was her intimate physical relationship with this other man, and that it did not indicate marriage.
Yet, she did have many previous marriages. Possibly, because the previous husbands had died, and she was in need of another husband for survival,support and love. In this story it seems as though she has slept with this new man, and hasn't officially married him yet.

Just my :2cents:

p.s.
I also noticed Jesus did not condem her, for being with the man she is currently with.
Are we really like Jesus?
Or is our western culture contrary to His love and compassion,
and His perspective on a relationship between a woman and a man?
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Postby daffodyllady on Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:55 pm

:oops: sorry about the double post
Last edited by daffodyllady on Sat Dec 02, 2006 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby daffodyllady on Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:56 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
daffodyllady wrote:I have thought about this quite a bit, and I believe that we cannot say that simply having sex with someone you plan to stick with the rest ofyour life, can make a marriage. Why? Because marriage is more than sex. Marriage is God's foundation of a godly society.


We're trying to validate this through scripture, daffodyllady. I agree with you that marriage is more than sex, but sex normally is the fulfillment of two individuals committed to one another.

If marriage were automatically created when two people had sex, and automatically broken when one of those people has sex with someone else, then what is the definition of fornication and adultery?


Adultery is having sex with someone other than your spouse. That has always been the definition of adultery. We can prove that thru scripture, but since that isn't the focus of this thread, we probably won't go there.

Think of it this way. We vow to be faithful to our spouse. Why? Because God designed love that way: we naturally want to make those vows, because He wants marriages to be permanent and exclusive.


Agreed 100% that God designed marriage to be one woman and one man. What we're searching for is scripture that defines at what point they are considered married as well as scripture supporting vows in a marriage ceremony as we have it today.

This then makes marriage a covenant with not only another person, but also with God and with our community.


Do you know of scripture that says a woman and a man make a covenant with one another?

Therefore, we owe it to God, and to the communities in which we live, to honor the customs of the people we live around, regarding establishing a marriage. Those rituals may be different in various places. But we owe it to other people, and to God, to honor the homes around us, by having a marriage ceremony.


So are you suggesting that marriage is a "custom?"


Well, there is a lot to deal with in here... I am not sure I can get to it all.
I do not have my Bible with me, as I am at a public library. I have to rely on search engines like crosswalk to find the passages I need to quote. So bear with me, ok?


Luke 16:18 says this:
"Whosoever putteth away his wife and marrieth another, committeth adultery. And whosoever marrieth her that is put away, committeth adultery."

(I can't even get the left click button on my mouse to work, so I have to find it, then write it from memory. ARGH!)

What is adultery? You have already defined it correctly. So, if Adultery is sex with someone other than your spouse, then how can a man who is already divorced from his wife, commit adultery against her? The only way adultery can be committed against a divorced wife, is if God did not honor man's "putting asunder" as being a legal transaction. In God's eyes, the man is still married to his divorced wife. That is the only way he could be committing adultery with his new wife.
As a point of interest, if you look up the greek tense of "committeth" in this verse, you will find that it is the perfect present tense. Which means it is a continuing action. The adultery is not committed once at the point of marriage to another, but rather is committed over and over, by living in that new "marriage".

The same foundation lies under the last half of the verse. Whosoever marrieth her that is put away, committeth adultery. How in the world? In modern American Christianity, this is impossible. But Jesus said it. Therefore, it is God's Word, no matter whose teachings contradict it. The only way a man can continually commit adultery by marrying a divorced woman, is if that divorce holds no water in God's book.

Another verse showing this truth, is I Cor 7:11
"But if she departs (from her husband), let her remain unmarried, or let her be reconciled to her husband. "
What? Ok, lets run over this, step by step. A wife leaves her husband. She lives an unmarried lifestyle. Paul calls her unmarried. Is she divorced? It does not mention divorce. We would assume she is divorced, if he calls her unmarried. Yet, in the same breath, he says she has only two options, as a christian; either she may remain in her unmarried lifestyle, or she may be reconciled to who? The man who is still called her husband!

Yes, this is very different from what Moses said in Deuteronomy concerning dovorce. But Jesus said clearly that He was not saying what Moses said. He said "But I say unto you"...

You may think this has nothing to do with the discussion of when is a person married in God's eyes? But I think it does, because many people think they are married, when they are actually living in a divorced-and-"remarried" lifestyle. Or perhaps they are "married" to a divorced person. And God does not recognise those marriages.

We have gotten the idea that vows are necessary to make a marriage. But the Bible does not say they are. The vows we make are simply reflections of what God has commanded us to do in marriage. We are judged if we do not do those things, whether or not we made any vows about it.

Each culture has customs surrounding marriages. Some simply take a woman into their home. And the culture respects that as marriage. Our culture, however, does not concider living together a marriage. Rather, it is looked at as a sinful lifestyle; one that disregards propriety and law. No, marriage is not simply custom. But Jesus honored the custom of the marriage at Cana. He did not go around telling them to change their customs, and go back to the Old Testament customs, which were different from his day.

Paul said that we should abstain from all appearance of evil. Also, we are to strive to have a good report among those of the community. (I Timothy 3:7) because an evil report can hinder our witness among unbelievers. We are to live lives above reproach.

This subject hits really close to my heart, because my father in law divorced my mother in law, and is living off and on with another woman. He says he is committed to the relationship, but she isnt. So he says he is married to her, but she is still not married to him! Thats where you end up when you try to come up with new interesting doctrines all by yourself.
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Postby fatherjacob on Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:38 am

I just want to add this: I think it's telling that the Bible doesn't talk about sex-before-marriage. The main sexual sin it talks about is adultery. This leads me to believe that there's no such thing as sex-before-marriage - sex is marriage. And if you do have sex-before-marriage, and then get married to someone else, you are committing adultery.
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Postby daffodyllady on Thu Dec 07, 2006 4:09 pm

yes, the bible does talk about sex-before-marriage. often.

That is the definition of the word "fornication." Look it up.

And the Bible says over and over, in both old and new Testaments, that fornication is sin. Therefore, sex, does NOT = marriage.
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From Redeemed 1953

Postby redeemed1953 on Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:48 pm

:armor:
Dear Lady:

Thank you for your reply.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this issue.

I cannot, as I stand before God, divorce my husband and wreck the lives of my children to amend the situation. I am at all convinced that God would have me do that.

Instead, I will depend heavily on the mercy and forgivenenss of God to me, His servant. I am grateful that He has forgiven me much more than being married to my husband.

I will not discuss this any further with you, not because I am burying my head in the sand, but because I am too busy making sure that I meet the needs of my family and taking care of what God has set before me.

I bless you in the Name of Jesus, the Messiah

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Postby fatherjacob on Fri Dec 08, 2006 12:29 am

What Bible version do you refer to? I did a search for 'fornication' in the NIV and it doesn't exist. The same search in the KJV returned 35 results. Among them:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." (Matthew 5:32)
Is that still the sex-before-marriage definition of fornication?

Additionally, Jesus compared a man being united with his wife, "and the two become one flesh", to something that "God has joined" and "man should not separate".
So, I think we can agree that marriage, in God's eyes, occurs when two become one, no?

So when do two become one? I cannot see any other explanation for two-becoming-one than sex. So, sex = marriage. QED.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Fri Dec 08, 2006 7:13 pm

fatherjacob wrote:Is that still the sex-before-marriage definition of fornication?


I have heard fornication defined as almost anything some have "said" it is. It seems it's often applied to anything sexual in nature.

So when do two become one? I cannot see any other explanation for two-becoming-one than sex. So, sex = marriage. QED.


Just for the sake of conversation, how does this apply to "forced" sex?
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Postby Ready1 on Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:53 am

What do you think of this verse where Jesus said to the woman at the well...

Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.
Just observing.

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Postby daffodyllady on Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:02 pm

Ga 5:19 -
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness....

Therefore, adultery and fornication are two separate and distinctly different sins.


However, I have found that in some people who like to seem inquisitive, there actually is a spirit of rebellion and pride against God's word. Paul speaks of how to deal with these types of arguers:

I Timothy 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud... doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds... from such withdraw thyself.


And Titus also speaks on the subject:
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

I am finished trying to reason with this person who seems to want to believe God's Word does not forbid sex before marriage.
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Postby fatherjacob on Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:04 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how does this apply to "forced" sex?


I dunno. In the Law, anyone who rapes a girl is forced to marry the girl, and can never divorce her (Deuteronomy 22:28). But, after reading some of the laws prior to that one, I see that there's significance in being "pledged to be married."

Ready1, I have a few points regarding that:
(1) It's perfectly possible that Jesus didn't want to get into a huge semantic explanation about the meaning of marriage before talking to this woman. So he would have used the term "husband" in the sense that she understood it (ie: via ceremony).
(2) I know nothing about Aramaic or Greek, so I don't know how this story was recorded in its original language. It's possible that the original language had multiple words for marriage, each signifying something else.
(3) The translators may have not considered this detail important, so instead of translating "marriage ceremony" directly, they may have translated it "marriage", assuming it's the same thing.

... I don't know for sure, obviously, and these are just suggestions. My point in all of this is that it's dangerous to develop theology based on a single verse. It's much better to use the whole Bible, in its full context, to develop theology.
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:01 pm

fatherjacob wrote:
Abiding in His Word wrote:Just for the sake of conversation, how does this apply to "forced" sex?


I dunno. In the Law, anyone who rapes a girl is forced to marry the girl, and can never divorce her (Deuteronomy 22:28). But, after reading some of the laws prior to that one, I see that there's significance in being "pledged to be married."


fatherjacob, thank you for this response. Since the whole focus of this thread is "what constitutes a marriage in scripture," if you have laws about the significance in being "pledged" in marriage, I'd be very interested in knowing where to find them. That's what we're trying to discover in this discussion. Many thanks!
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:08 pm

Ready1 wrote:What do you think of this verse where Jesus said to the woman at the well...

Joh 4:16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.
Joh 4:17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:
Joh 4:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.


Ready1, I do have an what I see as a logical explanation for Jesus' encounter with this woman. I realize she has mostly be perceived as a woman who is very sinful and even an adultress, but I see her differently.

When Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well, he was not revealing her sinful life.

"You are right when you say you have no husband. The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband." (John 4:17-18)(NIV)

The Samaritans followed the Law of Moses and so did this woman. The fact that she had five former husbands did not mean she was a harlot or anything of the kind. More likely, she was a woman who had been the victim of the easy divorce "for any reason" (Matthew 19:3). Her last husband either died or divorced her, so she may have been taken in by another man.

How did she react when Jesus let her know that she had five previous husbands and the man she was with now was not her husband? Did she react like Peter and said, "away from me I am a sinful woman"? No. She was obviously a God-fearing woman who was knowledgeable in the things of the law because she immediately recognized that Jesus was a prophet and proceed to ask him a difficult religious question:

"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." (John 4:19) That is hardly the response of a adultress. She was testing his knowledge of a deep religious subject. The Samaritans did not go to Jerusalem to worship but worshiped on Mt. Gerizim. In his reply, Jesus acknowledged that she worshiped God:

". . . a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. . . . his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth" (4:21,24).

She realized at this point that he could be more than a prophet, that he could be the Messiah, so she said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us" (4:25). Jesus said he was the Messiah so she ran back to the town and told the people. Did she say, "come see a man that revealed my sin," no she did not, she merely said for them to "come see a man who told me everything I ever did." And what about the town's people? When the woman reported that she may have found the Messiah, did they say, "What does an adultress know about religious things!"? No, they believed her! Later, after speaking with Jesus,

They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world." (John 4:42)

They believed her without ever seeing him, but after speaking with Jesus personally, they were able to know first hand that he was the Messiah. So the woman was not immoral. Jesus was not in any way condemning her divorces or her present situation, he was merely revealing his knowledge of her history. Jesus did not go around revealing people's sins. That is not something that can be found in the Bible. The only people Jesus spoke out against or spoke out about were the religious people who were plotting to kill him and the merchants in the temple when he turned over the tables. He did not make it a practice to expose people's sins. Jesus never condemned anyone but the Pharisees and hypocrites. He did not even condemn the woman caught in adultery but merely said to go and sin no more.

It was very difficult for a woman to survive alone in that day and age, so most women had to have a husband, but if she burned the food he could divorce her almost instantly. So the fact that she had five husbands was not a point of revealing any sin. This woman was not a sinful person IMO. After five husbands she probably moved into another man's home to cook his food and wash his clothes in exchange for a place to live and food, and clothing. There is no evidence she was sinful, but there is lots of evidence she was a good, God-fearing woman.

Remember the Pharisees were testing Jesus about this very thing since they believed in divorcing a woman for anything and boasted that Moses allowed it.

"Some of the Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" (Matthew 19:3)

I don't know of a place in scripture that mentions a polygamist female, so I have no reason to believe this woman was anything other than one who had been "cast out" for "any reason."
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Postby fatherjacob on Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:30 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:Since the whole focus of this thread is "what constitutes a marriage in scripture," if you have laws about the significance in being "pledged" in marriage, I'd be very interested in knowing where to find them. That's what we're trying to discover in this discussion. Many thanks!


Take a look at Deuteronomy 22:13-30. There's probably more elsewhere, but those are the ones I referred to in my post. Pay careful to the words used, but realize that what you're reading is an interpreted translation of a copy of the original. Not to say that it doesn't have authority - it certainly does. But I'm wary of giving details too much power.
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Postby Be still on Sat Dec 09, 2006 5:08 pm

But I'm wary of giving details too much power.


Reminds me of the old saying ... the devil is in the details.
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Postby crmann on Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:48 pm

Okey,

Something to think on:

How a husband and wife are married is not important to God. The marriage ceremony is basically a tradition of man. How a man and a woman enters into a marriage is of great importance to God.

Isaiah 62:5
For as a young man marries a virgin, So shall your sons marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So shall your God rejoice over you.

And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride? In the old testament, no bridegroom would have been rejoicing over a bride who was not a virgin. No premarital sex would have been accepted outside of marriage.

In Ephesians 5:32, Paul, in talking about marriage relationships, says that he is referring to a profound mystery, (Mysterion—oath—magnum sacramentum in the Latin), which is Christ and the Church. The one true and everlasting marriage covenant is the one between Christ and the Church.

Christ and the Church is a picture of marriage in the eyes of God. The Church is to be pure (a virgin).

So the themes of marriage between God and man repeatedly run throughout both Old and New Testaments. Marriage between a man and a woman is a picture of the relationship we are to have between God and ourselves as individuals.

In Genesis chapters 1 & 2, our sexuality is an integral part of man’s relationship with his marriage partner. It is a type and shadow of something far greater and more glorious than itself. It images the sacrificial love of God in Christ, fathering new life by giving Himself to us in sacrificial love on the Cross.

It is my understanding that in God’s sight, if a man and a woman have sexual relations, they become one, but would this constitute as being married?


What happens when a man and a woman engage in sex?

Consider a scripture verse which addresses only the sex act, I Corinthians 6:16.

Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For He says, The two will become one flesh.

There are two people mentioned in the above verse; a man and a harlot. In our American culture, a harlot, or a prostitute, is a female who gives sex in exchange for money. Porne is the Greek word translated in I Corinthians 6:16, as "harlot," but it does not refer exclusively to an individual who takes money for sex. Instead, it refers to any woman who is even inclined toward promiscuity. She doesn't have to actually be promiscuous, and she doesn't have to take money for sex.

The two people, the man and the harlot, have sex. This is what is meant when I Corinthians 6:16 says "the one who joins himself to a harlot." The word translated "joins" is the Greek word kollao which means the man and the woman have sexual intercourse.

The consequence of sexual intercourse between a man and a woman is that they become "one body." The apostle Paul expects that the reader of this verse should already know that, when a man and a woman have sexual intercourse, they become "one body." We know Paul has this expectation by the way he phrases the question "Or do you not know...?"

The original readers of this passage were the infamously immoral Corinthians. Paul expected these immoral Corinthians to already know that a man and a woman who have had sexual intercourse are "one body" because, elsewhere in scripture, God says "the two will become one flesh." Because the cannon of the New Testament had yet, (nearly 400 years later), to be assembled, Paul expected that the immoral people of Corinth would know that a man and a woman who have sex become "one body," from Genesis 2:24. The phrase "one flesh" appears only seven times in the Bible. It appears once in Genesis 2:24, once in Matthew 19:5, once in Matthew 19:6, twice in Mark 10:8, once in I Corinthians 6:16, and once in Ephesians 5:31. Genesis 2:24 is the origination of the phrase "the two will become one flesh," and all the other verses in the Bible that use this phrase refer back to Genesis 2:24.

Genesis 2:24 For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Matthew 19:5 and said, ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.’

Matthew 19:6 Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.

Mark 10:8 and the two shall become one flesh; consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.

Notice that Ephesians 5:31 does not say “cleave to his wives.”

When a man and a woman have sex, they become "one flesh." According to Paul, this should have been obvious, even to the immoral Corinthians, because Genesis 2:24 states that "the two become one flesh."

Did you know that a man and wife who may give a kidney, or part of a liver to the other, are a better match than identical twins, and there is 98% less chance of rejection than from any other kind of donor?
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:59 pm

crmann wrote:It is my understanding that in God’s sight, if a man and a woman have sexual relations, they become one and are married.


Thanks for that post, Cleveland! Great info.

It seems the general consensus in this thread has been that sex = marriage. I see you agree with that.
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Postby daffodyllady on Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:40 pm

Abiding in His Word wrote:
crmann wrote:It is my understanding that in God’s sight, if a man and a woman have sexual relations, they become one and are married.


Thanks for that post, Cleveland! Great info.

It seems the general consensus in this thread has been that sex = marriage. I see you agree with that.


Abiding, I am surprised that you seem to think that the general concensus in this thread is that sex=marriage. I do not gather that at all. Instead, I gather that the general consensus of this thread, is that sex is supposed to follow the establishment of a home, and in that setting, enhances and completes the marriage, rather than that sex actually creates a marriage, all by itself.


And, Fatherjacob, I see now that you are the person I was addressing in my last post. I did think you felt that sex alone created a marriage, without any other arrangements being made. Your private message communicated an entirely different message, though. Wouldnt it be better to clearly state what your position is, rather than to trust everyone to be able to read between the lines in your post, and to discern that you were playing the part of devils advocate?

I am sincerely glad that you do not believe what it seemed to me that you were advocating!
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:04 pm

daffodyllady wrote:Abiding, I am surprised that you seem to think that the general concensus in this thread is that sex=marriage. I do not gather that at all. Instead, I gather that the general consensus of this thread, is that sex is supposed to follow the establishment of a home, and in that setting, enhances and completes the marriage, rather than that sex actually creates a marriage, all by itself.


Hello again, daffodyllady!

Nearly every post in answer to the OP of "when are we married in God's eyes" contains references to sex; i.e. consumation, adultery, fornication, etc. It does seem to me that most participants in this thread so far strongly equate marriage with sex. I didn't say I agree with it, just that it seems that the major consensus is that marriage does equate to some degree with sexual activity.

I do think that the reason for this is most likely the scripture that says "the two shall become one flesh," although I'm not sure that was the intended meaning of that verse or else marriage does, in fact, equal sex.

But we have been unable to scripturally define when two people are married in God's eyes. We can describe what we think marriage is today, but have yet to show from the Bible when God ordained the relationship of two people to become a marriage.

Let's keep looking.
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Postby AndCanItBe on Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:20 pm

Matthew 19

'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."


I don't think we should overlook the first part of Matthew 5. A man is to leave his father and mother and be united to his wife. In other words, while still honoring mother and father, he is no longer united with them, he is united with the wife and they are one front, loyal to each other. At that point they become one flesh. When united in loyalty to each other above any other, and united by one flesh, the two will then become as if one person (almost) eventually. When "leaving and cleaving" are left out, there is no true marriage, just a physical relationship built on a house of cards. When "leaving and cleaving" is present without the physical relationship, it could be missing a certain amount of oneness possibly, but still be a marriage. The marriage starts with the leaving of father and mother and uniting to the wife in ways other than physical, IMO. Uniting with the wife and becoming one flesh aren't two different ways to say the same thing, IMO, they are actually two different "steps" to become one and uniting is about the minds and hearts and leads to loyalty to each other above all others (with exceptions of course, for certain sins, and Christ)
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Postby Abiding in His Word on Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:46 pm

AndCanItBe wrote:
I don't think we should overlook the first part of Matthew 5. A man is to leave his father and mother and be united to his wife. In other words, while still honoring mother and father, he is no longer united with them, he is united with the wife and they are one front, loyal to each other. At that point they become one flesh. When united in loyalty to each other above any other, and united by one flesh, the two will then become as if one person (almost) eventually. When "leaving and cleaving" are left out, there is no true marriage, just a physical relationship built on a house of cards.


:clap:

:bounce:

Yipee! Praise the Lord, Jodie! That's the very first scripture in the Bible about what marriage is.

Gen. 2:24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

For what reason?

because

Gen. 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."

God says, a man shall leave his father and mother to be joined to his wife......

Are we interpreting that to mean "For this reason a man and woman shall leave their parents.......?"
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Postby crmann on Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:25 pm

I don't know if I am adding fuel to the fire or throwing light on our understanding here but I have given it some thought and will share with you. You decide.

In order to understand what is meant when the God says two people are one flesh, we need to study the verses in which the phrase "one flesh" is used. "One flesh" appears once in 1 Corinthians 6:16, once in Genesis 2:24, once in Matthew 19:5, once in Matthew 19:6, twice in Mark 10:8 and once in Ephesians 5:31 and the concept is referred to also in Malachi 2:14-15.

Genesis 2:24 says, For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.
Matthew 19:5 says, For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become 'one flesh'. Matthew 19:6, Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. Mark 10:8, and the two shall become one flesh; consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh.

Throughout the Bible, man and wife are "one flesh".

1 Corinthians 6:16, Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a harlot is one body with her? For He says, The two will become one flesh.

Ephesians 5:31 For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh.

Malachi 2:14-15, Yet you say, "For what reason?" Because the Lord has been witness Between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant. But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

All seven of these references refer to marriage. Marriage is introduced to us as a covenant in Genesis 2:24. What better place in God's Word for the idea of marrige to be presented to us than in the very beginning of the Bible? Every other verse of God's Word containing the phrase "one flesh" refers back to Genesis 2:24.

In all of these verses, a man and a woman are said to become "one flesh." "One flesh" is explained in Matthew 19:6, as something which God has "joined together." The words "joined together" are translated from a single Greek word, suzeugnumi, which describes the one flesh condition between two people who have had sex. Suzeugnumi literally means what God has "married." Because "one flesh" is condition that takes place when God has caused two people to become married, "one flesh" is the marriage union.

Sex alone makes people "one flesh" (I Corinthians 6:16). "One flesh" is the marriage union (Matthew 19:6). Therefore, sex alone makes two people married. Malachi 2:14-15  makes the point that God makes the two who have sex become “one” because a covenant has been established. 

We know this covenant is not a spoken vow, as in the marriage ceremony, because the threshold to establish this covenant in Malachi 2:14 is met when a man and a harlot have sex (1 Corinthians 6:16).  The reason God makes the two become “one” is because sex alone establishes a covenant between the man and the woman with whom he has sex.  While sex is only one of the many elements within an ideal marriage, sex alone creates a state of marriage in the eyes of God.

Looking again at Genesis 2:24, For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one flesh, there are three steps.

1. A man is to leave his father and his mother.

2. He is to cleave to his wife, choose his wife, love his wife, and have it in his mind that she is to be his one and only for the rest of his life.

3. After the first two steps have been taken, then God causes them to become one flesh through the sex act. They are man and woman before the sex act, they are man and wife after the sex act since it is through this act they become one.
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crmann
 
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