"Crickets"

[ToledoDebbie]

Wondering where everyone is?? No one has posted on the main "News" forum since March 1st. I don't think I have ever seen that long a time when nothing was considered "newsworthy". I have hesitated to post there, because I wanted to see how long it would take for others to start posting again. There are a handful of others still posting in this thread (Whatever) and the prophecy debate sections, but, even that traffic is way down. What does this mean?

[shorttribber]

Wondering where everyone is?? No one has posted on the main "News" forum since March 1st. I don't think I have ever seen that long a time when nothing was considered "newsworthy". I have hesitated to post there, because I wanted to see how long it would take for others to start posting again. There are a handful of others still posting in this thread (Whatever) and the prophecy debate sections, but, even that traffic is way down. What does this mean?

It may mean that the News as we know it is very difficult to perceive as true or false.

News stories never seem to give us much reliable insight to scripture. It does in part, but there's just so much news on all sides, it's just difficult to sort it out I think.

I do think this year will explain a lot though...and there will be a greater amount of activity on this forum as we go further into this year. It's going to get very interesting I think.

[SueAnn]

I do think this year will explain a lot though...and there will be a greater amount of activity on this forum as we go further into this year. It's going to get very interesting I think.

Could you expand on this, please?

[shorttribber]

I do think this year will explain a lot though...and there will be a greater amount of activity on this forum as we go further into this year. It's going to get very interesting I think.

SuAnn wrote: Could you expand on this, please?

Ok SuAnn,

There has been a lot of interest lately in the "Sign of the Woman" (Rev 12), and for Very Good Reason.
It's not that there is any Rapture prediction on my part...but I've heard the hints from others about that.
That's not the issue, the issue is the Understanding that will be revealed this year I think regarding just What the Dome of the Rock IS and how it will be Front and Center regarding the Coming AOD.

It Will occur There...and probably right around the Time of That Sign, This Year.

Won't be long before the Fake Seven Year Covenant, and the Actual AOD are SEEN...Right around the same Time.

And the Wise Shall Understand, The Readers will Understand.

We can all believe as we choose regarding the End Times and Bible prophecy NOW...but the Point i' m making is this, God is Going to Reveal the Truth to us All, Soon. I Believe This Year will be the Time of that Wonderful Revelation from God to us.

Fake Christians (Tares) and Unbelievers Will Not Understand, Real Christians (Wheat) Will.

[brett]

Shorttribber - if we get to November without any AOD - will you then consider alternative views on prophecy?

The reason I ask is I still disagree with this "Dome on the Rock" theory, just want to know how long until this theory will be clear one way or the other for you?

[Jericho]

I'm still around and visit almost every day. If I'm not posting then I'm lurking, and I suspect a lot of people are also lurking. The views are disproportionate to the handful of regular posters we have here.

[shorttribber]

Shorttribber - if we get to November without any AOD - will you then consider alternative views on prophecy?

The reason I ask is I still disagree with this "Dome on the Rock" theory, just want to know how long until this theory will be clear one way or the other for you?

As long as that Dome is setting where it is, no.

There will be no need at all to change my opinion after November or any other time. As far as considering alternative views, that's why I believe as I do....I've studied fairly thoroughly, the most of them.

Probably, for the most part, I could teach nearly all of them as well as those who hold and teach the many views that exist.

The reason I believe as I do is because I've gone back to the drawing board after finding something, even one piece of scripture that doesn't align with the whole, and start over.

Now, after about 15 years, there has not been One Scripture that has caused any conflict whatsoever with those things I believe that will occur as I expect. There are many I still do not Fully Understand of course, but None that Create Conflict as far as the rapture of the saints is concerned.

As far as my view being Perfectly Clear, and exactly When. I can Only say that as we get Closer to the AOD, It Has Consistently gotten Clearer and Clearer as the days go by. I find stronger and Stronger Evidence for it almost daily.
There is so much that I have never shared on this forum because the rabbits multiply so fast that I just can't type fast enough to chase them all down.

This year could come and go without event as far as the AOD, it's just really hard to imagine that right now.

We will wait and see.

[brett]

Shorttribber I have many things to question regarding this theory........right now I will ask just one question.

Timeline wise - when do (have) the events of the 7 seals of Revelation take (taken) place in this "Dome of the Rock" theory? Can we please try to have a brief back and forth conversation, in a kind of "point form" fashion. I don't really have time for an in-depth discussion. I'll pretty much tell you straight that I cannot accept certain things and move on, rather than debating it. I just want to make it clear to you what points of this theory I have problems with.

God Bless

[shorttribber]

Shorttribber I have many things to question regarding this theory........right now I will ask just one question.

Timeline wise - when do (have) the events of the 7 seals of Revelation take (taken) place in this "Dome of the Rock" theory? Can we please try to have a brief back and forth conversation, in a kind of "point form" fashion. I don't really have time for an in-depth discussion. I'll pretty much tell you straight that I cannot accept certain things and move on, rather than debating it. I just want to make it clear to you what points of this theory I have problems with.

God Bless

Ok Brett,
It's good that you recognize that the Seals can logically Overlay the Trumpets. To be brief, I do not see the necessity that All 7 Seals Overlay All 7 Trumpets.
It is my opinion then that some (3) of the Seals ARE Historic, and those remaining (4) yet Unsealed, are still in our future.

When the AOD occurs (At the Dome of the Rock) then the final four seals will occur after that, and all of the 7 Trumpets occur after the AOD. In other words, the Four final Seals and the 7 Trumps share the same Events in real time After the AOD.

[brett]

Ok Brett,
It's good that you recognize that the Seals can logically Overlay the Trumpets.

No.....sorry I do not recognise that the Seals can logically overlay the trumpets. Not sure were you got that from? The Trumpets and Bowls overlay each other but not the seals. Seals must come before both Trumpets and Bowls imho, they precede the Trumpets and Bowls, no overlaying is allowable imho. Simply because the 6th Seal is the Rapture, Sun & moon darkened, Christ in the clouds. The rapture obviously occurs prior to Gods Wrath, and the 7th Seal is obviously the start of God's Wrath, the angels being told to wait before beginning to destroy the earth, etc. The Trumpets and Bowls are clearly Wrath. There can be no overlaying with the seals imho.

This is one area where I have to reject the "Dome of the Rock" theory. As part of the theory you believe 3 seals have already occurred (in the past), that to me right there is incorrect. I see that as a major flaw in the theory.

Seal 1 is clearly describing the Anti-Christ (deceiver) - he has a limited lifespan of a normal man, this Seal has not happened and it is not a spiritual Anti-Christ - it is the man himself imho.

Seal 2 is clearly describing world war imho

Seal 3 is clearly describing the effects of world war imho

Seal 4 is clearly describing the death resulting from the effects of world war imho

Jesus clearly describes the same Seal events and in there correct order in the Olivet discourse in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Here's Matthew 24:

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (Seal 1)

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Seal 1)

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: (Seal 2) see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (Seal 2) and there shall be famines, and pestilences, (Seal 3 & 4) and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake (Seal 5).

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
......
......
......
......
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (Seal 6)
......
......
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Rapture - still 6th Seal)

The order Christ gives is the same as the Seals of Revelation, this is no coincidence. Logically the Seals represent the start of Daniels 70th week, its the time the Anti-Christ comes on the scene and begins his works.

Now consider Daniel 12:11,12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Firstly the 1290 days refers to the 2nd half of Daniels 70th week. We know from Revelation that this is a short time period, literal days - not centuries.

And consider Daniel 12:12 - A man cannot waiteth and be blessed as the angel states unless they be 1335 LITERAL DAYS. This single verse makes it clear we're talking about literal days.

Consider Daniel 12:7
And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Again this is clearly referring to a literal 42 months (3.5 years) as also given in Revelation. The Angel is not talking about centuries of time in this part of Daniel, but in short periods of time - in this case 3.5 years.

Everything points to LITERAL days in this section of Daniel.

.

[shorttribber]

Hi Brett,
I did misunderstand your overlay of the seals and trumpets( I misread your post in another thread). Since you have said that you did not wish to debate, I will just say that you can believe as you do, and I will not dispute what you believe.

I will not try to defend anything that you have said regarding shorttrib either, because that also would require a response akin to debate.

[brett]

The important thing imho is that people prepare for WW3 (hard times). The dome of the rock theory muddies the waters of the coming world war in the Seals - which means people may not expect nor prepare for WW3.

Even unbelievers sense WW3 is coming, look at China, look at the world, Jesus says nation will rise against nation - it's CLEARLY coming and important and around the same time frame of the AOD. So shorttribber, that's why I'm starting to hit down the "dome of the rock" theory. I see it has this big problem - of causing believers to NOT anticipate WW3 - that will end up hurting believers. We need to understand that a World War is coming and it will be waged by the Anti-Christ. That it will be the Anti-Christs war, taking over control of this world. The war, famines & diseases described in the Seals are this World War. We need to prepare for approx 1335 days of hard times, of which the first 1260 days will be the 4 seals - at least by the 3rd Seal we'll have extremely high food prices (that requires advanced preparation) and the last 75 days will have the MOB - we'll have to hide and have food reserves in order to survive this too.

.

[shorttribber]

The important thing imho is that people prepare for WW3 (hard times). The dome of the rock theory muddies the waters of the coming world war in the Seals - which means people may not expect nor prepare for WW3.

Even unbelievers sense WW3 is coming, look at China, look at the world, Jesus says nation will rise against nation - it's CLEARLY coming and important and around the same time frame of the AOD. So shorttribber, that's why I'm starting to hit down the "dome of the rock" theory. I see it has this big problem - of causing believers to NOT anticipate WW3 - that will hurt believers.

.

I don't see why you should feel that way, I believe that War on the saint's worldwide begins at the AOD.

Just that in the shorttrib idea, the Chaos and destruction comes much more Suddenly and Violently.

[brett]

Because imho WW3 precedes the AOD.......that's why. Do you recall just before the AOD the Anti-Christ's forces first surround Jerusalem and then invade it? That's the last battle of WW3 - of the Anti-Christs conquest.......his final military move just before the AOD is surrounding and invading Jerusalem.

The World War starts long before the AOD. You are correct regarding the AC war on the saints begins after the AOD, yes I agree - that's the Mark of the Beast time. But before the AC can directly attack the saints he has to establish global control and power over everything.......that's why there needs to be a world war - to settle who controls the planet - who is the AC. That is determined by the nations rising up against nation and war among the nations. That is not a war on the saints - that is a war between the nations. Once the AC has won the war between the nations - he can then wage war on the saints - after the AOD. The AOD is like the moment he becomes VICTOR of WW3.....he is now 100% in control.

It all makes a tonne of sense - that's what the first 4 Seals of revelations are all about - the war among the nations - WW3 - just before the AOD.

.

[shorttribber]

Because imho WW3 precedes the AOD.......that's why. Do you recall just before the AOD the Anti-Christ's forces first surround Jerusalem and then invade it? That's the last battle of WW3 - of the Anti-Christs conquest.......his final military move just before the AOD is surrounding and invading Jerusalem.

The World War starts long before the AOD. You are correct regarding the AC war on the saints begins after the AOD, yes I agree - that's the Mark of the Beast time. But before the AC can directly attack the saints he has to establish global control and power over everything.......that's why there needs to be a world war - to settle who controls the planet - who is the AC. That is determined by the nations rising up against nation and war among the nations. That is not a war on the saints - that is a war between the nations. Once the AC has won the war between the nations - he can then wage war on the saints - after the AOD. The AOD is like the moment he becomes VICTOR of WW3.....he is now 100% in control.

It all makes a tonne of sense - that's what the first 4 Seals of revelations are all about - the war among the nations - WW3 - just before the AOD.

.

I realize that all makes sense to you brett, it's the standard Dispensationalist Future order of events. I believe that order is in error. You have said that you do not want to debate these things, yet that is what you are doing.
We can debate, but what's the point?

What if the War Doesn't start before the AOD brett? Even IF that war did begin before the AOD, it still does not change the Timing of a shorttrib Rapture.

WE need to ALL be ready for a Great tribulation, that's what we need to be prepared for.

[shorttribber]

Do you recall just before the AOD the Anti-Christ's forces first surround Jerusalem and then invade it?

According to what scripture or scriptures specifically? The Ref in Luke regarding Christ's mention of "Jerusalem Surrounded by Armies", is that it?

[SueAnn]

I do think this year will explain a lot though...and there will be a greater amount of activity on this forum as we go further into this year. It's going to get very interesting I think.

SuAnn wrote: Could you expand on this, please?

Ok SuAnn,

There has been a lot of interest lately in the "Sign of the Woman" (Rev 12), and for Very Good Reason.
It's not that there is any Rapture prediction on my part...but I've heard the hints from others about that.
That's not the issue, the issue is the Understanding that will be revealed this year I think regarding just What the Dome of the Rock IS and how it will be Front and Center regarding the Coming AOD.

It Will occur There...and probably right around the Time of That Sign, This Year.

Won't be long before the Fake Seven Year Covenant, and the Actual AOD are SEEN...Right around the same Time.

And the Wise Shall Understand, The Readers will Understand.

We can all believe as we choose regarding the End Times and Bible prophecy NOW...but the Point i' m making is this, God is Going to Reveal the Truth to us All, Soon. I Believe This Year will be the Time of that Wonderful Revelation from God to us.

Fake Christians (Tares) and Unbelievers Will Not Understand, Real Christians (Wheat) Will.

Thank you, Shorttribber

[brett]

I realize that all makes sense to you brett, it's the standard Dispensationalist Future order of events. I believe that order is in error. You have said that you do not want to debate these things, yet that is what you are doing.
We can debate, but what's the point?

Hmmmmmm......what to do? Just go my way and forget about it or not.........

I'm willing to debate it to some extent because I care about the right thing prevailing in the public arena. Because you're zealous to tell people - I am becoming more zealous to express my disagreement and explain to people why - so other people can better judge for themselves. So that's the point. The down side is it might harm our friendship, I don't want that, but I can't just go my way and forget the matter either. If I am wrong I will publicly say so and stop teaching what I believe. I will be fair about this. I will only say things in disagreement while I am certain of an error, if you show me something that takes away that certainty, then I will back off.

What if the War Doesn't start before the AOD brett? Even IF that war did begin before the AOD, it still does not change the Timing of a shorttrib Rapture.

WE need to ALL be ready for a Great tribulation, that's what we need to be prepared for.

We could all question anything with a "what if". I could question you saying "What if the war does happen before the AOD?" I don't think that's going to help much.

I'm not clear on your meaning regarding the timing of a shorttrib rapture.......you will need to explain that more.

ST now for a gentle rebuke. Please let us both NOT categorise each other views as "such n such" or belonging to some group "so n so". Oh you are an "so n so", your views are the standard "so n so"..... Let's both of us not do that to each other please because it gives us a way to dismiss what the other person is saying. We're not going to be able to have a proper discussion if we think we have the other person figured out and we've put them in with a group we already don't respect.

.

[brett]

According to what scripture or scriptures specifically? The Ref in Luke regarding Christ's mention of "Jerusalem Surrounded by Armies", is that it?

Yes Luke is one important one. Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

I believe this is talking about the Last Days, the AOD time period.

Also Zechariah 14: 1-5
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


Also talking about the AOD time frame, Anti-Christ forces capture Jerusalem and take control of it, this is Jerusalem being judged by God. Then a couple of months later God's Wrath starts and God fights against the rest of the nations, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements being poured out as Revelation tells us, the time of God's Wrath on the rest of the world. Then it talks about Christ returning to the Mount of Olives with all the saints, and the mountain splitting in two etc.

[El Gallo]

Concur with Mr. Baldy's comments about the ongoing uncertainty over what the prophetic language means in real-world terms. Prophecy is only clear in the rear view mirror. Just ask the Disciples!

That being said, I also tend to think, "What do we see now?", rather than theorize what might come to pass. For one, and as noted many times, the antichrist religion of Islam is heating up the war they started 1400 years ago. Many millions of deaths, millions in slavery, its unrelenting hatred of Christians and Jews in this war make it loom over prophecy. Russia, the U.S., the EU are all going in and out of the Islamic war. But 1900 Islamic attacks just since 9/11 tells me to look at that.

As well, and as stated above, THE most notable thing about the very notable Jerusalem --- which is the focal point of every panoramic view of Jerusalem -- is the Dome of the Rock. I see the Dome as a Satanic shaking of the fist at YHWH happening every day. I have seen very interesting overlays of its "footprint" with the footprint scholars believe the Second Temple had.

Upshot to me is, yes, imagine where current events might lead, but pay attention to what is visible now.

[shorttribber]

I'm willing to debate it to some extent because I care about the right thing prevailing in the public arena. Because you're zealous to tell people - I am becoming more zealous to express my disagreement and explain to people why - so other people can better judge for themselves. So that's the point.

Hi brett,
That's fine, it's just that you said that you didn't want to debate, so that's why I said what I did.

The down side is it might harm our friendship, I don't want that, but I can't just go my way and forget the matter either.

There should be no need to worry about harming our friendship, that should never happen with any good and loving debate. I hope that I have shown that I am able to do that consistently since I've been on this forum. There is a Very direct method I use when debating, but I hope that is never understood as unkind.

I will only say things in disagreement while I am certain of an error, if you show me something that takes away that certainty, then I will back off.

Ok, I will mention a very important matter when we consider what is Certain and what May Not be Certain. Certainty is determined by Absoluteness.
When it comes to variant ideas of Bible prophecy, a very precious small amount of it is Absolutely Known. We can often think that we Know a matter Absolutely, when in fact it is just not True.

We could all question anything with a "what if". I could question you saying "What if the war does happen before the AOD?" I don't think that's going to help much.

I only used the "what if" because, according to shorttrib, When war on a massive scale breaks out, it doesn't effect the timing of the shorttrib rapture. In other words, war could break out Before or After the AOD and the timing of shorttrib is not effected either way.

I'm not clear on your meaning regarding the timing of a shorttrib rapture.......you will need to explain that more.

What I mean by "The Timing" has to do with the Actual rapture timing itself. We endure a Full 3.5 years of Great tribulation against "the loser"(antichrist). Soon after that, very soon I think after that (a day, a week?) Rapture of the saints occur and God's Wrath is poured out on the very same day probably.

ST now for a gentle rebuke. Please let us both NOT categorise each other views as "such n such" or belonging to some group "so n so". Oh you are an "so n so", your views are the standard "so n so"..... Let's both of us not do that to each other please because it gives us a way to dismiss what the other person is saying. We're not going to be able to have a proper discussion if we think we have the other person figured out and we've put them in with a group we already don't respect.

When I say that some common ideas are intrinsic to a certain group (example Dispensationalists) I mean no disrespect to persons. It's just that the common ideas are sometimes mentioned as though we should all know better than to reject those common opinions. That's where I mention them, when they are used to show some form of Proof based on Popular Opinions, but not in fact True.

I respect People, but not all opinions will I respect as true.

[shorttribber]

Now brett,
Now,with the love and respect to you my dear brother in Christ, let's move on to that debate.

shorttribber wrote:According to what scripture or scriptures specifically? The Ref in Luke regarding Christ's mention of "Jerusalem Surrounded by Armies", is that it?
brett wrot:Yes Luke is one important one. "Luke 21:20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh."
brett continued: I believe this is talking about the Last Days, the AOD time period.

First, this reference can be applied to both Past and Future Desolations of Jerusalem. And, I belive that it Does apply to Both Past and Future prophecy.
We have the words in Daniel 9:26, that unto the END of the war DesolationS, plural ARE Determined.

Note, the text of Luke says, when Jerusalem is surrounded by Armies, THEN it's Desolation is NEAR.

Note at this point, the Phrase, not in this text exactly, but in several others, "The Abomination that CAUSETH Desolation".

What then is the Cause of the Desolation brett? The Armies (as in Luke)? Or The Nations (as in Zech.)?

No, brett, not Armies and Nations at War. It's the Abomination Itself that Causeth Desolation.

God has used, and Will use many Vehicles , Players and Tools to Fulfill the Desolations Determined, but the Cause itself IS the Abomination Itself.

What Abomination then has Caused all the Desolation against Jerusalem? Rebellion Against God and His Christ/Messiah.
Rebellion Against and Rejection of God, Rebellion Against and Rejection of the Word of God, That's the Abomination that MAKES Desolate (For the Jews Historically and Modern).

With that understanding in mind, the Cause of the 70ad desolation was the Rejection of Messiah, and that occurred BEFORE Jerusalem was surrounded with armies that would end in it's Desolation in 70 ad.

Now, BeCAUSE of That Desolation (in 70ad), time has passed and God has Allowed ANOTHER Abomination to Stand on his Holy mount.

More on that later....(that Dome is in Open Rebellion Against God, and a Denial and Rejection of Christ His Son).

Now to Zech 14....

Zechariah 14: 1-5Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

brett continues: Also talking about the AOD time frame, Anti-Christ forces capture Jerusalem and take control of it, this is Jerusalem being judged by God. Then a couple of months later God's Wrath starts and God fights against the rest of the nations, the Trumpet and Bowl judgements being poured out as Revelation tells us, the time of God's Wrath on the rest of the world. Then it talks about Christ returning to the Mount of Olives with all the saints, and the mountain splitting in two etc.

At What Point do you understand the AOD as occurring in the text above?

[brett]

First, this reference can be applied to both Past and Future Desolations of Jerusalem. And, I belive that it Does apply to Both Past and Future prophecy.
We have the words in Daniel 9:26, that unto the END of the war DesolationS, plural ARE Determined.

Note, the text of Luke says, when Jerusalem is surrounded by Armies, THEN it's Desolation is NEAR.

Note at this point, the Phrase, not in this text exactly, but in several others, "The Abomination that CAUSETH Desolation".

What then is the Cause of the Desolation brett? The Armies (as in Luke)? Or The Nations (as in Zech.)?

No, brett, not Armies and Nations at War. It's the Abomination Itself that Causeth Desolation.

God has used, and Will use many Vehicles , Players and Tools to Fulfill the Desolations Determined, but the Cause itself IS the Abomination Itself.

What Abomination then has Caused all the Desolation against Jerusalem? Rebellion Against God and His Christ/Messiah.
Rebellion Against and Rejection of God, Rebellion Against and Rejection of the Word of God, That's the Abomination that MAKES Desolate (For the Jews Historically and Modern).

With that understanding in mind, the Cause of the 70ad desolation was the Rejection of Messiah, and that occurred BEFORE Jerusalem was surrounded with armies that would end in it's Desolation in 70 ad.

Now, BeCAUSE of That Desolation (in 70ad), time has passed and God has Allowed ANOTHER Abomination to Stand on his Holy mount.

More on that later....(that Dome is in Open Rebellion Against God, and a Denial and Rejection of Christ His Son).

I feel you are reading too much into the scriptures and have created a kind of riddle. Daniel 9:26 saying desolations (plural) could be referring to the many bad things that will happen in the Last Days in Jerusalem and round about, that does not prove your theory.

The part where you're talking about What causes the desolation: "What then is the Cause of the Desolation brett? The Armies (as in Luke)? Or The Nations (as in Zech.)? No, brett, not Armies and Nations at War. It's the Abomination Itself that Causeth Desolation.". What's this really got to do with disproving Luke 21 as being in the future? The way I see it - your argument doesn't prove Luke 21 is in the past, you have just created ONE possible logical understanding of the scriptures (with a bit of a riddle in there as well). Someone could create probably many different possible logical understandings (interpretations) of these scriptures - that still fits the wording of the scripture. The point is not to just find ONE possible logical understanding of scripture and run with it - the point is to find the intended and CORRECT logical understanding of the scripture.

So yes your logic is possible - but I don't consider it likely - I don't think its what God was meaning. Your reading of these scriptures IMHO is too deep and turning God's word into bit of a riddle.

Let's now make it VERY simple - the AOD is ONE event in the future that will reveal who the Anti-Christ is and will tell us when the mid point of Daniels 70th week occurs. This event will be one of EXTREME blasphemy, a man declaring himself the messiah (God) on the temple mount and demanding to be worshipped. The purpose is to INFORM believers of the prophetic time and hour - to know Jesus will return soon. That's the point of the AOD in scripture, so we know what to expect, so we know what's going on, so we are not deceived. I'm sure you already know this. What causes it ? Obviously its sin and this act (event) performed by the AC is the pinnacle of sin (rebellion).

In my opinion Luke 21:7 onwards is not about 70AD. The Matthew 24 account and Mark 13 account are good ways to see that Luke 21 is not talking about 70AD. Matthew 24 & Mark 13 also both mention the Temple stones like Luke 21 and then clearly go on to talk about the "Last Days", not 70AD. Luke 21 is doing the same thing but it's wording isn't as clear as Matthew 24 & Mark 13, but it is obvious to me it is talking about the same thing........IMHO all these 3 passages are about the "Last Days", they are not about 70AD - well apart from the one prophetic statement in all of them about "not one stone will be left upon another". regarding the temple.....but other than that they are talking about the Last Days. That's the purpose of 4 Gospels, 4 accounts. If we only had Luke 21 - we'd all be confused - Matthew & Mark - clarify the matter.

Further proof, look at the verses that are sprinkled throughout Luke 21:
Luke 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: (this is profoundly identical to Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and is talking about global stuff)
Luke 21:25-27 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
(very clearly talking about the Last Days - NOT 70AD)

So right there I am seeing one reason why you believe in this Dome of the rock theory and I do not. Because you believe much more of Luke 21 is referencing 70Ad - I do not believe this.

Regarding at what point do I consider the AOD happens in Zechariah 14: 1-5
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. {HERE} -

It is the Anti-Christs military (made up of many nations) that takes Jerusalem by force.........afterwards the AC fulfils the AOD event himself by declaring himself God - the messiah - deceiving the unsaved. Note also that just prior to the AOD, he dies and comes back to life - which is one of the biggest deceiving wonders (miracles) he performs.

.

[shorttribber]

Regarding at what point do I consider the AOD happens in Zechariah 14: 1-5
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. {HERE} -

Hi brett,
Where you have written "{HERE}", is that the exact place the AOD occurs in your opinion?
Or by putting the word "{HERE}" at the last of that entire section of scripture, do you mean that it occurs somewhere less specific at some point in that section?

I just want to be sure of what you are saying.

[brett]

At that exact spot. After Jerusalem is invaded (captured) then the Anti-Christ has control of Jerusalem and then he does the AOD thing, he stands on the temple mount and declares himself God to the world.

The next line Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. is Gods Wrath, the trumpets, bowls etc of Revelation.

To be exact the {HERE} spot is equal to approx 2.5 months of time. I believe there are 75 days between the AOD and the "appearing of Christ in the Clouds" - sun moon being darkened - our deliverance from the MOB - the Rapture. Gods Wrath starts the SAME day the rapture happens, 30 minutes after the rapture to be exact. Gods Wrath lasts 1215 days (1290 - 75) and is the Trumpets and Bowl judgements, we are in heaven for this time period. The 2 witnesses are on earth with 144,000 resurrected old testament saints of the literal 12 tribes of Israel. Its the 2 witnesses that call down the 7 Trumpet and 7 Bowl judgements, hence why the inhabitants of the earth want to kill them so badly.

.

[shorttribber]

At that exact spot. After Jerusalem is invaded (captured) then the Anti-Christ has control of Jerusalem and then he does the AOD thing, he stands on the temple mount and declares himself God to the world.

Let's look closer at that section then....

Zechariah 14: 1-5 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. {HERE} -

First, the "gathering" of all nations against Jerusalem is not given a time length mentioned ......over the course of decades could still be accurate according to the text....rather than just 3.5 years.

Second, would it not seem very important for the text to mention a Temple that so many dispensationalists are expecting to be a Very Large Part of the antichrist agenda?

Since you say the AOD occurs right then, would it not seem even More Reasonable and Likely that the AOD IN that Temple should at least be mentioned?

Are you of the opinion that there will be a Temple built for the antichrist to stop sacrifices in? It seems I remember that to be your opinion.

[brett]

A Temple may be built, it may not be built, I don't know - I'm not fussed really - either way - the AC will do something on the Temple Mount to fulfil the AOD event. What I am more certain of is that sacrifices and offerings will start early in Daniels 70th week (I believe on day 250 or 2300 days prior to the end of Daniels 70th week) and they will end at the mid point - whether that absolutely requires a new Temple or not I don't know.

That Zechariah scripture is Old Testament prophecy. Its a very summarised (brief and lacking detail) prophecy, it moves from Jerusalem being invaded to the Millennial reign of Christ VERY quickly, so it does not surprise me at all that specifics about the AOD or Temple are not mentioned.


.

[shorttribber]

Ok, I am more clear on your third temple opinion, thank you.

That Zechariah scripture is Old Testament prophecy. Its a very summarised (brief and lacking detail) prophecy, it moves from Jerusalem being invaded to the Millennial reign of Christ VERY quickly, so it does not surprise me at all that specifics about the AOD or Temple are not mentioned.

I agree regarding how the text covers many large sections of time. That said, is it not Reasonable that the same text could cover decades rather than years then, as many nations "Gather Against" Jerusalem, rather than just a few years?

Let me add this also. In the same manner that you are able to see a temple or no temple possibility, I am able to see Great war before Or After the AOD.

[shorttribber]

the AC will do something on the Temple Mount to fulfil the AOD event.

This one thing we agree on.

[brett]

I agree regarding how the text covers many large sections of time. That said, is it not Reasonable that the same text could cover decades rather than years then, as many nations "Gather Against" Jerusalem, rather than just a few years?

Its also reasonable to say the text does not cover decades, in fact I think its far more likely its talking more about years than decades.

Let me add this also. In the same manner that you are able to see a temple or no temple possibility, I am able to see Great war before Or After the AOD.

I cannot see a World War after the AOD. I have more scriptural reasons as to why.

I see the 7 Seals as persecution by satan. God is always ultimately in control, He allows it, but this is when the saints along with unbelievers suffer together - war affects all of mankind. I see the MOB as satan persecuting the saints via the AC, it is not Gods wrath - it is satan doing this.

I see the 7 Trumpets, the 7 Bowls etc as God's Wrath, this is when God turns the tables and delivers to a rebellious world what it deserves, justice, Gods stern judgement, this is a period of judgement and the repaying back to the wicked what they deserve according to their great sin. Its a time of vengeance - for our sakes, repaying the world and avenging our blood, the blood of the saints for all that the world did against us and their hatred of God.

I'm assuming you would agree that God's Wrath must come after the AOD. So then read Revelation and read the detail of each Trumpet and each Bowl being poured out and ask yourself - can all these events occur in 1 month? Its very obvious that Gods Wrath will take considerable time to be unleashed, one by one, trumpet by trumpet, bowl by bowl. There is a lot to happen, a large proportion of mankind will be killed, so I consider the 2nd half of Daniels 70th week, only has room for God's Wrath, the Trumpets, Bowls etc.......there is no room for a World War among the nations - which is the nation rising against nation thing. This does not happen during the Trumpets, Bowls etc.

75 days after the midpoint - when the sun and moon are darkened and Jesus Christ appears in the clouds, the unbelievers see all of this happening too and ask the mountains and the rocks to fall on them and hide them from the face of He who sits on the throne. They are filled with fear and their hearts fail them thinking what is about to come upon the world. They see believers going up in the clouds to be with Christ - at this point EVERYTHING changes, all mankind (the unsaved) are filled with fear, wailing and howling........they see Jesus they see us go into heaven - life cannot go on as usual after this - like a World War......no they are instead now facing a period of Gods Wrath - kinda like Pharoah in Egypt when Moses was alive - the plagues the signs the wonders that took place - this was stuff God did - this again will be what happens - the 2 witnesses will command the Trumpets and the Bowls to happen. The rebellious will hate God and curse Him for it, as is written in Revelations.

So at that time it will be God vs mankind (the wicked). The main enemy of mankind during God's Wrath is God Himself - as seen from the point of view of the wicked. Mankind will be more united against God than at any other time imho, they won't be starting a world war amongst themselves - however God will cause the 10 Kings to destroy Babylon and lead the nations to Armageddon. Remember they all have the Mark and all worship the Beast - one leader, they are all united in their worship of satan.

So IMHO World War can only happen while the world is still divided into individual sovereign nations as it is today and while the world is still clueless about the coming judgement - which is in the first half of Daniels 70th week, its also when there is room (time) for it.....the Seals also clearly describe conquest and world war and the effects of war.....and are chronologically followed by the Trumpets and Bowls.......the order of events is clearly given to us.....imho.....and it makes a lot of sense.

.

[shorttribber]

shorttribber wrote:I agree regarding how the text covers many large sections of time. That said, is it not Reasonable that the same text could cover decades rather than years then, as many nations "Gather Against" Jerusalem, rather than just a few years?
brett said:Its also reasonable to say the text does not cover decades, in fact I think its far more likely its talking more about years than decades.

I think one is more Reasonable than the other. Why do you think it is more likely years, From that Text Alone?

In other words, what in that text Alone makes it more likely to you that only Years are covered in time rather than Decades or Centuries? When I say, "That Text Alone" I'm referring to the setting in the Entire Chapter itself.

Setting aside any other texts that you believe supporting a 7 year time frame, Evaluate This text Alone, and tell me Why you think it Is More Likely Years, rather than decades or centuries.

I ask this because, as you already mentioned that these words that are given are brief in the prophetic sense.

I see the 7 Seals as persecution by satan. God is always ultimately in control, He allows it, but this is when the saints along with unbelievers suffer together - war affects all of mankind. I see the MOB as satan persecuting the saints via the AC, it is not Gods wrath - it is satan doing this.

I agree on these things.

I see the 7 Trumpets, the 7 Bowls etc as God's Wrath

And I see Only the Bowls as God's Wrath.

I'm assuming you would agree that God's Wrath must come after the AOD.

Yes

So then read Revelation and read the detail of each Trumpet and each Bowl being poured out and ask yourself - can all these events occur in 1 month?

The Trumpets can't ( the Trumpets last 3.5 Years IMO)....... but the Bowls can last only One Month.

Will you do the same as you're asking me, to see if you can discover that the Bowls do not Require More than One Month?

75 days after the midpoint - when the sun and moon are darkened and Jesus Christ appears in the clouds

I know that you are just supposing on the 1,335 and 75 day connection, that's ok, but not proven of course.

the 2 witnesses will command the Trumpets and the Bowls to happen. The rebellious will hate God and curse Him for it, as is written in Revelations.

During the Trumpets, yes, but they ascend to the Lord At the Seventh/LAST TRUMP......Before the Bowls of God's Wrath.

the Seals also clearly describe conquest and world war and the effects of war.....and are chronologically followed by the Trumpets and Bowls

The seals describe those things, yes, and more also beside that.
As you should know though, Revelation is not entirely chronological. You do not accept that apparently.

Let me ask one question that you can answer briefly with a yes or no.

Do you think of the Seven Churches mentioned in Rev were Only Historic, as opposed to Church Types also, or Church Ages? Are they meant to be understood only as Churches that are in the Past Only?

Not trying to send out a new rabbit, I have a reason for the simple yes or no answer.

[Jay Ross]

If I can just be allowed to add my 2 cents worth

<snip>

The Trumpets can't ( the Trumpets last 3.5 Years IMO)....... but the Bowls can last only One Month.

<snip>

If we read the verses concerning the sixth bowl, then we read the following: -

Revelation 16:12-16

Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up

12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.
NKJV

and it is improbable that the sixth bowl will unfold in a month as suggested by Shorttribber in his post above.

When does the Euphrates River begin to dry up so that the way of the kings might be prepared? We are not told.

When do the three unclean spirits like frogs which are spirits of demons performing signs for the whole earth to see go out?

When does the whole earth assemble at Armageddon for that day of the Great battle of the Lord?

When we consider the span of this sixth bowl prophecy, it is my opinion that its timespan is more likely to be around 1,000 to 1,500 years in length and that it began many years ago and is still unfolding today. The events surrounding the AOD is still very much a distant future event and as such the sixth bowl of God's wrath must be happening now, well before the AOD is revealed in our distant future, and not after the AOD event.

Shalom

[brett]

I think one is more Reasonable than the other. Why do you think it is more likely years, From that Text Alone?

In other words, what in that text Alone makes it more likely to you that only Years are covered in time rather than Decades or Centuries? When I say, "That Text Alone" I'm referring to the setting in the Entire Chapter itself.

The phrase "Day of the Lord" is frequently mentioned throughout the bible. Its the well know event of the rapture - that is Christ coming in the clouds, the dead resurrected and we are gathered in the clouds with Christ.

Zechariah 14 starts off with "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh....."

This pretty much takes Zechariah 14 right to the time of the end straight away. It doesn't start Zechariah 14 in 500AD or 1500AD (etc) - it goes straight to the "Day of the Lord" time frame. The things it mentions in Zech 14 could all fall within probably a 10 year period IMHO.

The Trumpets can't ( the Trumpets last 3.5 Years IMO)....... but the Bowls can last only One Month.

Will you do the same as you're asking me, to see if you can discover that the Bowls do not Require More than One Month?

Ok let's look at the bowls:
Bowl (1) Sores break out on men - minimum of 1 day
Bowl (2) Sea turned to blood - minimum of 1 day
Bowl (3) Rivers/Fountains turn to blood - minimum of 1 day
Bowl (4) Sun scorches men with heat - minimum of 1 day
Bowl (5) Beasts kingdom in darkness - minimum of 1 day
Bowl (6) River Euphrates dries up - the way of the kings of the east prepared. This is the bowl judgement that can't fit into 1 month. Revelation 16:14, 16

For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
.......
........
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

How long do you think it would take to gather ALL the kings of the earth and of the whole world - to gather them to battle at Armageddon? Moving all that military equipment, shipping it, etc. Logistically that's got to take longer than 1 month - even when earth is at peace (not under Wrath) .
Bowl (7) Earthquake, tsunami, hail - minimum 1 day

Everywhere I've sated minimum 1 day - I seriously doubt they would be poured out 1 each day. I would guess there would be bigger gaps between them. But let's say the first 5 Bowls are all poured out in a single day - that only gives approx 29 days for the military of all the worlds nations to gather to Armageddon to do battle (despite all the chaos from the aftermath of the first 5 bowls taking place around them). Realistically & logistically I don't believe this is humanly possible. So to say the Bowls all get poured out in 1 month is unrealistic imho.

I believe the Trumpets and the Bowls are poured out together - over the same 3.5 year period, that seems far more likely to me.

The seals describe those things, yes, and more also beside that.
As you should know though, Revelation is not entirely chronological. You do not accept that apparently.

You are correct - I do not accept that Revelations is not Chronological. I believe Revelation can be split into 2 books, like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the 4 Gospels and overlap frequently, I believe Revelation can be split into 2 books. From Rev 1-11 and from Rev 12-22. If you split up Revelation in that manner and consider the 2 books like 2 gospels - 2 versions of the same thing - the End Times, then suddenly everything makes sense and fits chronologically.

Rev 1-11 - focuses more on the start, they both overlap about the tribulation, rapture and Wrath of God, and Rev 12-22 focuses more on the end, Babylon, Armageddon, White throne, New Heaven and Earth.

That's how I look at the book of Revelation and that's how it remains chronological, if you understand it starts over again at Rev 12.

Do you think of the Seven Churches mentioned in Rev were Only Historic, as opposed to Church Types also, or Church Ages? Are they meant to be understood only as Churches that are in the Past Only?

Not trying to send out a new rabbit, I have a reason for the simple yes or no answer.

They were 7 literal churches at that time - they DO NOT represent church ages. However of course we can apply the things being spoken to those literal churches to us now.....its the same sinful nature we all struggle with no matter the time. I also think there are things being spoken to these churches that are symbolic, that have underlying meanings. But yes they are 7 literal, physical churches, that don't exist anymore today.


.

[shorttribber]

The phrase "Day of the Lord" is frequently mentioned throughout the bible. Its the well know event of the rapture - that is Christ coming in the clouds, the dead resurrected and we are gathered in the clouds with Christ.

brett,
The Day of the Lord is mentioned in a much wider range of events than the rapture alone....should I start with Joel chapter 2?

1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?
18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.
19 Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:
20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.
21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things.
22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.




Would you not agree that the Timespan described is very Great! Does it seem out of sequence of Known Events?
Does the Day of the Lord in this Text describe the Rapture?

Did you know that if you, or others truly understood the Meaning of the "Day of the Lord" and WHEN "THAT DAY" Has occurred in the Past, and How "THAT DAY" shall occur in the Future that Events in Bible prophecy, Past, Present and Future would be much Better Understood?

You are correct - I do not accept that Revelations is not Chronological. I believe Revelation can be split into 2 books, like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the 4 Gospels and overlap frequently, I believe Revelation can be split into 2 books. From Rev 1-11 and from Rev 12-22. If you split up Revelation in that manner and consider the 2 books like 2 gospels - 2 versions of the same thing - the End Times, then suddenly everything makes sense and fits chronologically.

Ok, lets test the chronology of Rev 12-22
Just quickly...in Rev12 we have the 3.5 years described of great trib, I believe you agree on this.
Then we look only to the next chapter where 42 months is once again mentioned when antichrist is given power to destroy...ok? do we at this place add another 3.5 years, or 42 months to the Great trib? No, we don't.
Therefore, just in this short test...rev12-22 is Not Chronological is it?

As for the gathering to battle at Armageddon Requiring more than 29 days.....
No, the whole world will be against Israel for 3.5 YEARS BEFORE THAT TIME. They will ALREADY be Primarily Gathered There!
They will need only that last final deceptive Encouragement to DO their Worst against God Almighty.

Also, by that time, there probably won't even be tanks, Oil, Trucks and Roads, the earth is really going to be a mess by then....they will probably literally be on Horses!

30 Days will be plenty of time.

Take a little time to notice the difference also will you at the end of Chapter 15, to see the great difference of the seriousness and severity of the Bowls compared to the Trumps.
Rev 15
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

[brett]

brett,
The Day of the Lord is mentioned in a much wider range of events than the rapture alone

Hopefully you will recall I stated in a previous post that God's wrath starts 30 minutes after the Rapture. So that includes God's Wrath starting as well on the Day of the Lord.....

Joel 2:1-11 speaks of the "Day" of the Lord being the day Wrath comes to mankind, that fits very well with what I'm saying. Joel is describing the Wrath, its perfectly fine for it to not include the rapture in Joel, Jesus Christ came after Joel. Old Testament prophets didn't have knowledge of the New Testament. Not everything was clearly revealed to the Old Testament saints. Look at
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 & 1 Thessalonians 5

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

This does connect the rapture with the Day of the Lord. Chapters and verses were not part of Paul's original letters, so a new chapter here has done a dis-service to this part of scripture. Paul has not changed topics because a new chapter starts, he is still very much talking about the same topic.

There are many more scriptures connecting the Day of the Lord to the Rapture:


Luke 17:28-30

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Lot being taken out of Sodom is similar to believers being taken out of the earth - prior to Wrath

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Self explanatory

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here Paul equates the gathering together with Him as the "Day of Christ"- same thing as "day of the Lord".

Revelation 6:15-17

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Doesn't Rev 6:17 sound very much like the end of Joel 2:11....

Joel 2 doesn't necessarily contradict anything I've been saying. I don't fully know the correct interpretation of Joel, I can't say I am an authority on Joel, that I know what God was saying with certainty, but I can hazard a guess. Here's my guess right now. Please don't pick it apart and critique my guess because I am telling you in advance that it is a guess, so my guess is possibly wrong. Who knows tomorrow I might come up with a better guess. I haven't studied Joel much. Ok here goes:

Joel 2: 1-11 - Is prophetic - Joel is speaking of the distant future - the day of the Lord - God's Wrath (30 mins after the rapture). The strong army described is a supernatural one (or its a figurative way of God describing His Wrath). The last part of verse 8 "and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded" does not sound like a human army. So I'm guessing this is Gods description of his angelic host delivering His Wrath - which is fire - which is also described in Revelations - the angel hurling fire from the altar on the earth.
Joel 2: 12-27 - Is NOT prophetic and has jumped back to Joel's present day audience - speaking to the Israelites of Joel's day - in their time frame, note it starts with Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart - the "now " brings us back to Joel's present day.
Joel 2: 28-32 - Is again prophetic - Joel is now talking about what is to come again in the future (for the Israelites). Note it starts with And it shall come to pass afterward - the "afterward" puts the scripture back into the prophetic time frame, its now about the future......towards Christ.

Joel does not prove your Dome of the Rock theory......there are other ways to understand it. The question is - how does Joel fit in with other scripture? That's the only way I can think to know for sure what Joel is really saying. 1 Thessalonians is one example of the rapture being connected to the Day of the Lord. Joel needs other scripture to clarify its correct meaning because imho by itself it can be read many ways.

Ok, lets test the chronology of Rev 12-22
Just quickly...in Rev12 we have the 3.5 years described of great trib, I believe you agree on this.
Then we look only to the next chapter where 42 months is once again mentioned when antichrist is given power to destroy...ok? do we at this place add another 3.5 years, or 42 months to the Great trib? No, we don't.
Therefore, just in this short test...rev12-22 is Not Chronological is it?

I do not believe the Great tribulation lasts 3.5 years. Here's what I believe regarding Daniels 70th week....
1260 Days Beginning of Sorrows - Tribulation - Seals (note Seal 5 overlaps AOD, Seals 6 & 7 come after AOD)
AOD
74 Days Great Tribulation - Mark of the Beast - time of unequalled distress for believers - we are killed on mass
Day 75 Christ in clouds, Rapture, 30 mins later Gods Wrath starts - angel hurls fire from the altar on the earth
1215 Days Gods Wrath Trumpets, Bowls, etc

I'm getting pretty tired now......I'm gonna need to get some sleep......I'll pick this up again tomorrow. God bless.

.

[shorttribber]

Joel is describing the Wrath, its perfectly fine for it to not include the rapture in Joel

brett,
I'm not saying that Joel Excludes the Rapture from being in Conjunction WITH the Day of the Lord.
Yes, the Rapture occurs and the Day of the Lord Occur at that time also.

The point I was making is that the "Day of the Lord" as many understand it, including you, is not as Limited in Scope as what you're saying, and your ideas of it are very different than what the Scriptures Actually Report.

The Day of the Lord has so much more meaning than some Still Unfulfilled Future Event!


will add more later....

[brett]

.
I do not agree on that point ST. I think the meaning of the "Day of the Lord" is simply about that DAY - all about the coming EVENT of that DAY - Christ in clouds - rapture - WRATH. That is the whole point, I disagree there is meant to be other meanings thrown in. I think that could be reading too much into the phrase, looking for things that aren't there.....going to deep.....creating riddles.

Here are some verses about the "Day of the Lord":

1 Thessalonians 5:2-3

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The Day Wrath is suddenly poured out.

Isaiah 13

Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

A little more detail "stars & constellations shall not give their light, sun & moon darkened" - again the Day Wrath is poured out on the earth.

Joel 2:30-31

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Same descriptions as the others.......

Matthew 24:29-34

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Here's something for you ST. When Jesus starts talking about the signs of the end of the Age, from the sentence "Take heed that no man deceive..........nations rising against nations.. etc all the way till the end of this passage.....Jesus is saying when these things he is talking about begin to happen know that the generation alive at this time will see it all happen in their lifetime. It will not be over thousands of years, it will all happen in a short span of time and quickly. Mark 13:30 also specifically says "till all these things" - what things? - all the things Jesus just talked about. This confirms that nation will rise against nation (World War 3) just before the rapture and return of Christ, the sequence of the Seals also describes WW3 before the rapture. You can't ignore this profound match, its clear what's going to happen, and its all in the time frame of "this generation".

Also note Jesus says of that DAY AND HOUR knoweth no man...... the day of the Lord is very simply that - A DAY, an EVENT that happens on a DAY.

Revelation 6: 12-17

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Self explanatory - all matches the descriptions of the other passages for the day of the Lord - its a special day, God's Wrath is delivered on this Day.

Luke 17

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Again its a single DAY

Luke 17: 28-30

Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Just like Lot leaving Sodom and Gomorrah and the SAME DAY God rained down Fire and Brimstone - so to the Rapture will happen and the same day shall God's Wrath rain down fire and brimstone upon the earth.

Anyway I think I have made the point clear. The Day of the Lord is simply that - a DAY in the future - when Christ returns in great glory and gathers the elect and then pours out His Wrath upon the world. That is ENOUGH - we don't need to try to add more meaning to the "Day of the Lord". Its simple and clear.

Also shown is that ALL those things described in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21), from "nation rising against nation"....all the way to the sun & moon be darkened.....the rapture........and Wrath being poured out .......it will ALL happen in the time frame of a lifetime - a generation.

ST the more I look at this stuff the more it is confirmed - the Dome of the Rock theory is not correct. I know that could be a discouragement to you, but please do not be discouraged - the process of testing things like this is of great benefit. I know every time I go through this process more light is shed on the matter - which is a blessing. I pray you receive this as a blessing also ....

.

[shorttribber]

Anyway I think I have made the point clear. The Day of the Lord is simply that - a DAY - when Christ returns in great glory and gathers the elect and then pours out His Wrath upon the world. That is ENOUGH - we don't need to try to add more meaning to the "Day of the Lord". Its simple and clear.

Really, One Singular day? God pours out His Wrath in One Singular Day? I know you have said otherwise, and there is a contradiction then.

When Jesus starts talking about the signs of the end of the Age, from the sentence "Take heed that no man deceive..........nations rising against nations.. etc all the way till the end of this passage.....Jesus is saying when these things he is talking about begin to happen know that the generation alive at this time will see it all happen in their lifetime. It will not be over thousands of years, it will all happen in a short span of time and quickly.

I will show you later that he meant no such thing, and that the things he describes are meant to be understood over a much great span of time....i'll add that later.

ST the more I look at this stuff the more it is confirmed - the Dome of the Rock theory is not correct. I know that could be a discouragement to you, but do not be discouraged - the process of testing things like this is of great benefit. I know every time I go through this process more light is shred on the matter - its a blessing.

I'm not at all discouraged brett, we've just begun to discuss these things.

And by the way, even if what I think regarding the Dome of the rock were untrue, shorttrib is not effected as far as rapture timing.

Just so you know. My position does not stand or fall based on my opinion regarding the Dome of the Rock.

The only reason I do mention it is so that WHEN things do occur there, AS I'm Saying they will...people will have heard the shorttrib position, and it will be a help to have heard it beforehand, and have I bit more confidence in the things I've said.

Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand
when he appeareth?

Does that last verse sound familiar? Does it sound a little Like "Who shall be Able to Stand"? in Rev 6?




The Day of the Lord AND the many Places that use nearly the same words are meant to be understood together...
Those many places where we see, "In That Day" Is a description also of a Portion of the "Day of the Lord".

The "Day of the Lord" is Not One Singular 24 hour day.....I will add a list of scriptures to prove this later ok?

as for now.... I will add this....

Is 10
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness..........................................................

..............27 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.........................

..............32 As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.

(At This Point, please remember that there WERE/ARE no Paragraph Divisions)........... Remember, what occurs in the beginning of the Next Chapter occurs in "That Day"

....................................On to Is 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him
, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.



10 And in that day
there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Insert ROMANS 15:

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith {Is 11:10 ABOVE}, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Returning to Is.11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time
to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

[shorttribber]

Here's another example of What Occurs "In That Day"....."The Day of the Lord".

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ***, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day
there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Now brett,
Let me please post Again, Other events "IN That Day"....When the Lord FIRST CAME, "In That Day"

Please keep in mind, I do not enlarge words as intended Yelling...I only enlarge or add color so there is less chance of important words being Overlooked.


Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand
when he appeareth?

Does that last verse sound familiar? Does it sound a little Like "Who shall be Able to Stand"? in Rev 6?

Is 10
20 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

21 The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness..........................................................

..............27 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing.........................

..............32 As yet shall he remain at Nob that day: he shall shake his hand against the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.

(At This Point, please remember that there WERE/ARE no Paragraph Divisions)........... Remember, what occurs in the beginning of the Next Chapter occurs in "That Day"

....................................On to Is 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him
, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.



10 And in that day
there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.


Insert ROMANS 15:

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12 And again, Esaias saith {Is 11:10 ABOVE}, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.


Returning to Is.11

11 And it shall come to pass in that day
, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time
to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

[brett]

Really, One Singular day? God pours out His Wrath in One Singular Day? I know you have said otherwise, and there is a contradiction then.

ST - Wrath starts on that day, it continues the rest of the 1215 days......

Mal 3
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand
when he appeareth?

Does that last verse sound familiar? Does it sound a little Like "Who shall be Able to Stand"? in Rev 6?

ST, read Malachi 2 to get the correct context. Malachi 2 starts with "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you." God is angry with the Priests and telling them so. They had departed out of the way of Levi, they were straying from what God wanted.....they were not executing their duties correctly as Priests. In Malachi 3 God is still talking to these Priests....basically God is saying....I'm going to turn up and test you - who of you will be able to stand when I do.......I do not believe this is related to Rev 6 - no. God is talking to the literal Priests and to that time - in their lifetime, it has nothing to do with the End Times, it has nothing to do with Gods Wrath on the Day of the Lord.....no where is there any mention of the Day of the Lord, Wrath, etc like in Joel etc......sorry but you made a mistake here, this scripture is not about the End Times.

The Day of the Lord AND the many Places that use nearly the same words are meant to be understood together...
Those many places where we see, "In That Day" Is a description also of a Portion of the "Day of the Lord".

The "Day of the Lord" is Not One Singular 24 hour day.....I will add a list of scriptures to prove this later ok?

as for now.... I will add this....

No I do NOT agree. "In that Day" does not always pertain to the "Day of the Lord".....again you are creating riddles ST. The phrase "In that Day" simply means - in the same time period of whatever else is being talked about.

ST Isaiah 10 is not about the End Times. It is about God sending the Assyrians to attack the wicked Northern Kingdom of Israel in judgement, but sparing Judah. Judah will also be hit with the Assyrians rod, they will be hurt, but only for a while, Judah will remain and survive and the Assyrian's oppression will be lifted off them after a short time, for God will destroy the Assyrians.

Isaiah 11 does indeed continue on but it's now a prophecy about the coming (birth) of Jesus Christ. Its describing like a family tree and saying Jesus Christ will grow out of Jesse (father of David), Jesus will be a descendant of Jesse. It talks about Jesus having the spirit upon Him and learning quickly the fear of the Lord....It then jumps to the End times and describes Jesus smiting the wicked in Armageddon simply by speaking the word and then it goes on to describe the Millennial Reign time period.
The rest of Isaiah 11 is about Jesus gathering believers from the nations during the millennium. Even though a huge number of people will die during God's Wrath there will still be survivors, some of who are believers, but they will be ones who became believers during Gods Wrath (after the rapture). Those who the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 were able to save via their ministries. Also during the millennium people will still be getting saved, there will still be opposition to Jesus, there will still be nations in opposition to Jesus. At the end of the 1000 years this opposition to Jesus will be deceived by satan to attack Jerusalem - this is the Gog Magog battle, Ezekiel 38,39. So while the millennium will be heaps better than life is now in this Age, it will still not be perfect, there will still be sin and satan will still be able to deceive them to attack Jesus.

.

[brett]

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ST - all these "in that day" phrases - its just standard english. Its not a way to connect different passages of scripture, to show a relation.

I mean what would you think if I claimed the verses from one passage of scripture that contained "at that time" were talking about the same event that another passage was talking about because it also used the phrase "at that time"......its just silly. Trying to read too much out of the scriptures.

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[brett]

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Also ST - the posts are getting a bit long. How about from now on we both deal with shorter sections of scripture in each post......this is getting too time consuming....


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[shorttribber]

ST, read Malachi 2 to get the correct context

I have done that, the correct context is Christ being Sent AT His COMING AFTER John ,His Messenger.
And I do realize of course that it refers to his first advent, and not his second brett.

I'm trying to help you see that the Day of His Coming is Split of Course...but the Prophets STILL USED the SAME WORDS....IN That Day. And Not as One 24 hour Day brett.

No I do NOT agree. "In that Day" does not always pertain to the "Day of the Lord".....

I disagree completely. Show proof of that and we will see.

again you are creating riddles ST.

Could it possibly mean that I am speaking the things that have been a Mystery, and remain so to those who are unable yet to see it? And that the Things of Bible Prophecy are Intended by God to be that way?
Can it be that God reveals what He wills, to whom He wills, Whenever He wills?
The prophecies are Sealed Up brett, Until the time of the End, BECAUSE THEY ARE Mysterious.

The phrase "In that Day" simply means - in the same time period of whatever else is being talked about.

You can believe so brett, but that does not make it true.

I have given you such Absolutely Plain Evidence against that opinion....I will just repost a tiny part...

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

ST Isaiah 10 is not about the End Times.

Yes, I know

Isaiah 11 does indeed continue on but it's now a prophecy about the coming (birth) of Jesus Christ.

Yes, it is......and When Christ was present At His First Coming was PART of the DAY OF THE LORD.

I know that you can't receive that.....maybe some time you will be able to.

Also ST - the posts are getting a bit long. How about from now on we both deal with shorter sections of scripture in each post......this is getting too time consuming....

Yes they are....

I will try another method.....I thought that you may have been able to recognize what the texts themselves were Plainly Saying, without preconceived ideas keeping you from that.

I mean no disrespect, but the texts themselves are very clear.

[brett]

brett wrote:
No I do NOT agree. "In that Day" does not always pertain to the "Day of the Lord".....

Shorttribber wrote: I disagree completely. Show proof of that and we will see.

There are many examples, just do a search of the bible for the phrase "in that day". I did a search - here are just a few examples.

Exodus 10:28 And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.

Leviticus 27:23 Then the priest shall reckon unto him the worth of thy estimation, even unto the year of the jubile: and he shall give thine estimation in that day, as a holy thing unto the Lord.

Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

1 Samuel 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the Lord will not hear you in that day.

Isaiah 7:21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?


ST there are heaps and heaps of examples where the "in that day" phrase is used and has nothing to do with the "Day of the Lord".

[brett]

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ST - regarding the Zechariah scripture, here's my understanding.

Zechariah starts with the "Day of the Lord cometh".........that's the rapture, sun & moon being darkened, start of God's Wrath - the event that happens in a single day. I see this opening declaration as a simple warning........The rest of the "in that Day" phrases are regarding the end of Daniels 70th week, when the Wrath is over.......that would be the day that ends Daniels 70th week and starts the millennium.

The Day of the Lord is a day of DARKNESS, sun and moon being darkened. The day being described here is NOT DARK, NOR LIGHT - its a different day with different things happening.


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[shorttribber]

brett wrote:No I do NOT agree. "In that Day" does not always pertain to the "Day of the Lord".....
Shorttribber wrote: I disagree completely. Show proof of that and we will see.
brett wrote:There are many examples, just do a search of the bible for the phrase "in that day". I did a search - here are just a few examples.

It was my error to not mention the usage of those words among the Prophetic books.

The first examples....

Exodus 10:28 And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.Leviticus 27:23 Then the priest shall reckon unto him the worth of thy estimation, even unto the year of the jubile: and he shall give thine estimation in that day, as a holy thing unto the Lord.

Are given as a Certain Day Appointed. God also has "A DAY" (Visiting on MORE THAN One Occasion) Appointed, but it is a Unique One

The other examples are Either At TYPE and Shadow of That Unique Day (Entering that land PROMISED to Abraham) or in the case that you gave in Ezk 38, the Actual Day of the Lord.

You need not tell me about your belief that Ezk 38 is at the End of the millennium. I'm aware of your position on that.

The idea of "The Day of the Lord" being Much More than a 24 day is not something that you agree with, and we must just agree to disagree on that. I really do not know how I could have provided Plainer Proof to you From Scripture Itself than I already have.

[brett]

The scriptural proofs you have provided aren't doing much for me ST, sorry about that............

Can you explain in simple logic (without scripture) what the significance of the phrase the "Day of the Lord" actually is then......maybe that will help. Because from my perspective you seem to be complicating a phrase that seems rather straight forward and simple to me.

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[shorttribber]

The scriptural proofs you have provided aren't doing much for me ST, sorry about that............

Can you explain in simple logic (without scripture) what the significance of the phrase the "Day of the Lord" actually is then......maybe that will help. Because from my perspective you seem to be complicating a phrase that seems rather straight forward and simple to me.

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Ok brett, i'll try.
God, in times past has spoke to us by the prophets in such a way as to inevitably, by Our Terms and Perspective, become somewhat of a "Riddle".
Now, God has done this for many reasons, yet He has not intended to Confuse us, but instead, Humble Us.

He intends to reveal to us what we need to know of "That Day", when He Chooses to do so.

God does not ACT IN TIME as We Understand it, He Reveals to us Eternal Words, and Eternal Principles.
All of the prophets spoke and Acted WITHIN THAT Principle. God gave them Instructions in Agreement with Those Principles.
A good example would be Ezekiel Laying on one side to represent a Span of Time. not only Was it a Type and Shadow, but it was A Message of How God Speaks to us. He speaks in FORMS and TYPES that we Perceive as "Riddles".

2 Peter 3:8 speaks of a "Day" with God is AS a thousand years. This is not Proof that the "Day of the Lord" is a thousand years of course...but the Apostle Peter is showing to us That Principle.

God has shown us that his "Day" of "Visitation" was Not One Day, has He Not? He has shown us that He has Two Advents, Two "Visitations", Two "Comings", yet His First "Coming" was not One Day, but three and a half years.
I gave to you, for your consideration, Malachi 3, and clearly spoke Of That Day as though He should Only Come Once, it Was a "Riddle".

Now, we have His Spirit, but prophecy is yet a "Riddle", intentionally by God, until the time of the End.

I will add more as I am able to.

Blessings to ya

[Exit40]

WOW ! Great post ST.



God Bless You

David

[brett]

The scriptural proofs you have provided aren't doing much for me ST, sorry about that............

Can you explain in simple logic (without scripture) what the significance of the phrase the "Day of the Lord" actually is then......maybe that will help. Because from my perspective you seem to be complicating a phrase that seems rather straight forward and simple to me.

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Ok brett, i'll try.
God, in times past has spoke to us by the prophets in such a way as to inevitably, by Our Terms and Perspective, become somewhat of a "Riddle".
Now, God has done this for many reasons, yet He has not intended to Confuse us, but instead, Humble Us.

He intends to reveal to us what we need to know of "That Day", when He Chooses to do so.

God does not ACT IN TIME as We Understand it, He Reveals to us Eternal Words, and Eternal Principles.
All of the prophets spoke and Acted WITHIN THAT Principle. God gave them Instructions in Agreement with Those Principles.
A good example would be Ezekiel Laying on one side to represent a Span of Time. not only Was it a Type and Shadow, but it was A Message of How God Speaks to us. He speaks in FORMS and TYPES that we Perceive as "Riddles".

2 Peter 3:8 speaks of a "Day" with God is AS a thousand years. This is not Proof that the "Day of the Lord" is a thousand years of course...but the Apostle Peter is showing to us That Principle.

God has shown us that his "Day" of "Visitation" was Not One Day, has He Not? He has shown us that He has Two Advents, Two "Visitations", Two "Comings", yet His First "Coming" was not One Day, but three and a half years.
I gave to you, for your consideration, Malachi 3, and clearly spoke Of That Day as though He should Only Come Once, it Was a "Riddle".

Now, we have His Spirit, but prophecy is yet a "Riddle", intentionally by God, until the time of the End.

I will add more as I am able to.

Blessings to ya

You believe Jesus ministry the first time was the first 3.5 years of Daniels 70th week and you believe there is another 3.5 years to come, to complete Daniels 70th week.

I certainly can see possible significance in the fact Jesus's ministry the first time was 3.5 years, and how you can relate that to Daniel 9:27. Ok so you think the "AOD -> end" is the 2nd half of Daniels 70th week......I believe that too.......so that's fine......as long as you realise world war precedes the AOD and the Seals correlate to the Olivet Discourse.

How you read Daniel 9:27 doesn't really bother me much (atm) - maybe I'll debate that another day.

The real important things in scripture are not hidden riddles. For example the Mark of the Beast is very plain - there is no doubt about it - if you take the Mark you will go to hell.

Revelation 14:9-11

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This is not a riddle - its in plain english. I like this kind of scripture because there is no room for doubt about the matter.

So that's why I look to the words of Jesus regarding the end of this Age. I would hold up these words as the absolute authority on what will unfold in the future, because these words came out of Jesus mouth. I think pretty much everything we need to know about the future is contained here:

Matthew 24: 3-9

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
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15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
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21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
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29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Here we have chronology and its all in plain english.

(1) Beware of deception
(2) Wars and rumors of wars
(3) Nation rising against nation, kingdom against kingdom
(4) Famines, pestilences & earthquakes
(5) Believers will be delivered up to be afflicted
(6) AOD
(7) The need to flee
(8) Great Tribulation - worst in all of history - never to be equalled again
(9) After this then Jesus will return

All this happens prior to the return of Christ and a fair amount happens prior to the AOD. So what is "Nation rising against nation"? What is "Kingdom rising against kingdom?" What is this being described here that happens prior to the AOD? Is it world war or not? I think its clear its world war.

This is my issue with your theory ST. I disagree with the way it plays around with timing of the 7 Seals of revelation. Jesus words and the Seals line up and correlate.......that is something to take notice of.

And the corresponding account in Mark adds this:
Mark 13: 28-30

28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Its all going to happen quickly - Jesus says it will happen in a generation. This is the most simplest reading of this scripture and there is no need to complicate it and change its meaning - unless you have an agenda to prove something else. This is another reason why I disagree with your theory, it requires you to change the meaning of this scripture. I don't believe there is any need for complicating this plain and simple scripture.

Can you please tell me WHEN the Seals of revelation occur in your theory.

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